SERIAL KILLER GARY HILTON UPDATE-Fred Rosen

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hunt and kill them. In two thousand and seven, at least, that's the earliest investigators have been able to prove he brought Hollywood to life when he began using state parts as his own personal hunting grounds. Convicted of murder and sentenced to death, it would seem the case was not closed. Fred Rosen was commissioned by the Atlanta Journal Constitution to write a front page piece for their Sunday section on the real timeline of Meredith Emerson's murder, which is covered

in his book Trails of Death. Rosen was denied information and now realized that the timeline in the book is wrong. Emerson should probably still be alive. The truth never came out, and Rosen is pursuing the story. The book that we're going to be profiling this evening is Trails of Death Revisited, an update with my special guest journalist and author Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the and thank you for the Greens' interview Fred Rosen, Dan, how are you great? Thanks? How are you doing, Fred?

Let's go back and give sort of an overview of the Gary Michael Hilton case itself and then give us the update and how this update came to be, and talk about the Atlanta Journal Constitution and the front page piece as much as you possibly can. Let's go back to Gary Michael Hilton.

and also took off the hands of Ryl Dunlap. And Gary did these things because it was going to obscure the identity of these individuals. Then get back in the van again and went up to Georgia where he kidnapped, decapitated, or rather murdered and decapitated Meredith Emerson. And that occurred in early January of two thousand and eight. And what happened after that was after the police caught him in Georgia, he fled to the murder of Emerson, he got life

in prison with parole. He was extradited to Florida where he was convicted of murdering Sheryl Dunlap and sentenced to death, and then he got extradited to North Carolina where he was convicted earlier this year in federal court for murdering the Bryants on federal land and sentenced to life in prison.

And essentially that is where things have stood and where I come into it regarding doing a further investigation is I've become privy to certain information which I am working on right now, and it will sort of extend this case and it will elucidate certain aspects of it that to this point in time haven't been And that is the story I'm working on for the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

mister Hilton. Now, one of the things that I can talk about because this is this is already public, is this, but I sort of put it together a little bit differently, and that and that is this that Gary Hilton had a federal warned out for his arrest at the time of all of these murders, and believe it or not, for abandoning his car on federal land in Georgia, Okay, and it is a misdemeanor warrant. And this did not and what makes it interesting, and this is really the

periphery of what I'm doing. But again, I don't mind talking about this because this is certainly this has been reported. But what I've done is basically put it all together. And what occurred was this that this warrant occurred in two thousand and six, and the warrant was never served because they couldn't find Hilton, And what subsequently happened was that the warrant just remained outstanding and it was for

his arrest. And what occurs is that after he kills the Bryans in North Carolina, Irene and John Bryant, he has stopped in Georgia in a rural area and his license is run and the warrant doesn't come up. He then goes to the Apalachicola National Forest in Florida and he gets stopped there and the warrant is run and it doesn't come up again, and then he subsequently will kill Ryl Dunlap and Meredith Emerson. The story that I'm writing deals with, among other things, why that warrant did

not come up when these people stopped him. So I will be answering that question in the article. And I've been able to get the cooperation of the United States Marshall Service. They've been very kind and helping, and they've actually been great, Actually, they've really been great. And so I'm in the process of interviewing other individuals to put together the rest of this information so that we have a more accurate picture about why these people wound up dying.

And this will be a story, hopefully it'll be later this month on the front page of the Sunday section of the Atlanta Journal Constitution. How'd I do good?

And it's not just it's not just the timeline, uh. I mean, that's part of it, but it's it's it's the it's getting the perspective on what happened and why it happened. And it isn't a question of of get a blame or something of that nature. It's simply what we journalists do, which is trying to get the best attainable version of the truth. And that's not an easy

thing to do. And as you know, and I was looking, I've been lucky enough to be able to get access to certain information, uh that I had been denied previously, and that's helped me to really put the whole thing in perspective, so to take a look at really why these things, why these things happen the way that they happened. And that's what I think is most important, is is the why it happened and the way it happened. And

again I know that I'm speaking in generalities. I you know, when you're in the middle of doing something, it's difficult to do otherwise, And but that's what the story will deal with. And so I would simply ask the listeners confidence and patience, and you know, if they, if they, you know, keep abreast with us, they will get their money's worth. And from what I understand, you can just get the paper online for nothing, so it won't cost anything.

But so anyway, I'm putting it together, and there's still certain individuals that I need to speak to regarding this, and and that's that's where it's at right now.

He then took to the floor of the Georgia Legislature and condemned me and Larry Flint. First time I've ever been in such good company and I and I had completely forgotten that Larry had been shot in Georgia, and so he's always had a very problematic relationship with the state, and as soon as they saw his name, they went

ballistic on both of us. And so what occurred was that they within maybe one month of that occurring, in March of twenty ten, they rushed through the Georgia legislature some legislation called, I think it's called the Meredith Emerson Memorial Act, which made it or rather it stopped journalists and anyone else from gaining access to certain crime team photos, to certain crime reports, and so they basically shut down and from that point onward, journalists had to rely on

what was given out by the state in the Georgia end of the case, and that's what occurred. And I might add that the law was passed ex post facto, which of course means that it was after the fact. So they said that what I did in requesting the information was against the law, when of course it wasn't at the time. And so the information that came out of the State of Jews was dribs and drabs, and it was whatever they wanted us in the media to get. And I wasn't the only one. I was not the

only one. This was everybody else, both in the national and the international media. So if you were if you, for example, were calling from the Canadian Broadcasting Service and you asked for this information, they would deny it to you. And that, I might add, is atypical for most of the United States, most of in most of the United States, it's it's it's not that difficult to get this information.

But as they said, this is what they decided to do in Georgia, and the law stands on the books, and so I'm I'm partially responsible for them shutting down on some of us. So I guess that might incur the wrath of some of my fellow journalists. But all I was doing was doing my job. And the kicker to the story is that at the time Larry canceled the article, so I didn't even get paid. I mean, and you understand that, and I'm sure other people do.

I mean, especially you know, when you're struggling through a recession like everybody else. Why why didn't they cancel the article? Well, it turned out that.

in the magazine. And Hustler does quite a bit of good journalism and he wanted to run that with with a story. However, they were denying him these photos. And what I didn't know I just blundered right into it was that this was happening at the same time as I'm requesting the photos of the Emerson crime scene. And the next thing you know, Dan, I'm getting condemned, and you can look this up on the web, folks. I'm getting condemned for wanting to publish pictures of the headless

corpse and that was never the case. And so in order to stop the bad publicity that I was getting and these individuals in Georgia from condemning me, I wrote an Atlanta Journal constitution on that piece, in which I explained what I was trying to do was deduce what Gary's m O was, what Gary Hilton's m was, to see if I could tie him into other crimes and to understand what this guy was doing, because that's what our job is, to understand it and to report it.

And I was lucky enough to be able to publish that piece for the newspaper, and that curtailed, at least at the time, the criticism toward me. But it was a very very very difficult situation for me personally, and not to mention the fact that I kept getting all these phone calls in the Georgia Press on my cell phone and I didn't have unlimited minutes, and the next thing you know, I got the big cell phone bill. So it was a very very very difficult situation for

a while. Until I got to write the book, and that really helped a lot.

I like that, Dan cool speaking of speaking of dramatic because we spoke about in the last interview and I'm not really sure if you you applauded me from my perspective on on say, uh, you know, murder and the capital punishment, and we won't get back into the of course,

I just don't agree with the death penalty. But the thing is that you spoke about was that Gary Michael Hilton had an accident later in life that almost you describe it as being scalped, and so he had this head injury, get some type of accident, and you speak about that should have been factored in to the case itself, and that should have been seriously considered, and especially when you say, you know, sixty one years old, never violent before, and then all of a sudden he turns into this

vicious serial killer, decapitating and taking off hands. What I wanted to talk about was is the Hollywood movie script that he submitted, or the at least idea for the script. Tell us more about that. I think that's fascinating that this person would be actually have this movie actually happen and be out on a release, and basically years later in the area that he described in this fictional story about being in Georgia, he is convicted a charge and

convicted of murder that actually happened in Georgia. So tell us more about this deadly run and his flirtation with Hollywood.

is his childhood friend from Highley of Florida. So and Dino took me around and he showed me all the places where they grew up. Well prior to that, when Gary was seven, a murphy bed fell on his head and scalped him, literally leaving him with frontal brain lobed damage that would not be diagnosed until he was arrested for these crimes. So we take it forward now into the nineteen nineties. Gary is a former Vietnam veteran. He

was actually in the European Theater. Well, it wouldn't be the European Theater at that point, but it was in the nineteen sixties and Gary Michael Hilton, the future serial killer who literally had his finger on the nuclear trigger. The United States government had deployed handheld nuclear weapons to be fired at the East Germans if they came over the horizon in West Germany. Larry was one of those guys in what was known as the Davy Crockett Platoon. Now he winds up, he winds up getting out of

the service after he has a schizophrenic, nervous breakdown. So now we've got two positive factors here, Dan, We've got that, we've got brain injury, and there's also something else which I talk about in the book. And so he winds up in the nineteen nineties. He's a con man and he runs various kinds of scams, usually involving something along the lines. It could be anything from selling magazines to

homesiding or whatever it might be. And he gets arrested on some very minor misdemeanor charge in Atlanta, the Atlanta area, and he becomes friends with a man named Samuel Rail who is an attorney, and sam Rail is producing low budget films. Direct the video and Gary comes up with the idea and what we call it's what we would call the story in the movie business, and he comes

up with the story for Deadly Run. And Deadly Run is about a man from Atlanta who takes beautiful girls into the distant woods, lets them go, hunts them down, and kills them. And guess what Gary takes takes Rail to this area in Georgia where he will later kill Meredith Emerson, and this is where they shoot this film in that area. So Gary writes this, Yeah, he writes the story and what happens is instead of usually if you write a story for a movie, you get stored

it says story by and then screenplay by. But apparently there was some sort of a deal you know all above BOYD where Gary just decided to take the money and so his name does not appear on the film. But mister Rail has confirmed many many times in print that Gary is the dude that wrote the story. Well, this is where I think it gets very interesting here because of what you talked about earlier regarding the death penalty. During the trial which I of Cheryl Dunlap's murder in Florida,

it's a death penalty trial. It's the first time, Dan, that I've ever sat through that kind of a trial. I'd never sat in on a death penalty case before, and I have to tell you that it was it was heartbreaking to me. I might have been the only one in the courtroom that I felt that way, but that's the way I felt, you know. And I'm being honest with you and with the listeners. I don't like

to sit there and watch the person condemned to death. Sorry, it just doesn't you know, it doesn't work for me, especially when I knew this was a serial killer that was made. He wasn't born that way. Well, listen to this during the trial. At one point during the sentencing phase, the expert witness for the state testifies about Hilton creating the story for the movie. Okay, and this is the expert witness for the state, and he claimed that this

was an example as I recall of Hilton's psychoses. Well, at that point, the defense attorney pointed out, Hey, this is true. The guy really did this. He made film into reality. Well, Hilton gets convicted and he gets sentenced. It took them about an hour and twenty minutes for twelve men and women to condemn him to the death chamber in Florida. That's an automatic mandatory appeal. It was recently heard by the Florida Court of Appeals. And you

know what, I couldn't believe it. The Florida Court of Appeals stated that this whole business about the movie never should have been entered into evidence, and they didn't think it was true. They didn't think it was true. And I'm listening, you know, I'm listening to the arguments. You know, these are oral arguments available. You know, you could watch them live online, and I'm going I don't think they got that one right. You know, nobody believes it, but

I can't. You know, it's like nobody wants to believe what occurred, and I and it's it's and I think the reason is you don't want to believe that's such a quote unquote monster can exist. And and and that right there is the problem. People don't want to believe that, nor do they want to see the warning signs. Dan, There are always warning signs with these individuals. And if you take as take a look at Hilton's background as I did in Tales of Death, what you'll see is

you'll see there's a pattern. And it's up to the psychiatrists, social workers, all of these individuals. They're the ones who are supposed to be following this dude. But that doesn't happen. And that's what what's what's unfortunate, not just in this case, but in many other cases. I mean, you know, stop me at any point, okay, because you know me, I'll just go on and on.

watching it and hearing decisions and studying decisions. To a certain degree, we talk about at least in for all intentsive purpose, we're talking about an intent to murder is diminished if someone is like in this country, we talk about self induced intoxication reducing criminal responsibility, but when we're talking about insanity, you could say insanity or not criminally responsible because they didn't have the intent to commit the crime.

Because they were insane, they were not of their right mind. They were acting out of character. And you're talking about a man that acted out of character now to rebut that, to.

about the torture van, we just alluded to it. But he had all this weaponry and a way of sub doing somebody in that van. A lot of the things he did decapitation, hands removed, So a lot of people would argue that there's all this calculation, there's all of this planning, there is all of this evading the law. How do you answer to that in terms of not criminally responsible due to some form of organic and you know, brain trauma here or brain damage. So let me about that.

case the hands, is is to hinder identification. And you know what, in Florida, he was so successful that they could never say for sure that that the bones they recovered were Sheryl Dunlaps. They couldn't even make a d N a d N A profile because what he did was he took the bones and he burned me and it burned them. So there's no question that we're dealing with somebody who commits premeditated murder and certainly thinks it out,

uh well, which you know extensively. What you're getting at, Dan, is this you're not You're not asking the question, it seems to me about whether he's You're you're certainly asking the question is he responsible? And of course the answer is yes. But the question really is should the individual be condemned to death? Should the individual in eight in in the you know, we could take Robert Picton? Did I say his name correctly? Yep? Yeah, Robert Picton as

an example, should be individual? I mean, and there's a guy who killed people and and the and the bodies wound up in the food supply and the food should should should we as a state, And when I say we, I mean be it Canada, be it the United States or wherever? Should we as a state execute individuals for

premeditated murder? And and should we execute if there is some sort of diminished capacity as we've been discussing, and well the thing and you know, and and and that that's those are really good questions, and those are the kinds of questions that we've all been been grappling with for the last two hundred years.

And if that isn't enough, then it should be enough, and it certainly is for every other crime. So and again, if only some people are deemed worthy of the death penalty at a certain age for a certain amount of crimes. Then and then there is a variance. There is there is not uniformity throughout the United States.

and murdered a twelve year old boy for kicks. That was the only reason they did it, just for kicks. And their defense attorney with Clarence Darrow, the famous defense attorney, probably the most famous defense attorney in our history. And here's what happened. Darrow did something that is absolutely brilliant. This occurred in Illinois where they had the death penalty,

and Darrow pled him guilty. To begin with, he went right to the sentencing phase, and he decided to go right before the judge and plead for their life, and Darrow's argument was that how far have we come from Biblical times when people would get stoned If what we're going to do is take two twenty one year olds and throw their lives away in the electric chair, when the punishment enough is to put them in jail for life, and he argued, is it possible, Is it possible for

a soul to be redeemed? And well, yeah, I know. It became the basis for Bookal Compulsion, which was later a movie. And what makes it so interesting is this, I didn't even know this as a kid. Nathan Leopold survived into the nineteen fifties, and so when he was an older man in the late fifties, he was paroled.

This thrill killer was paroled. He went to Puerto Rico and he became a research scientist and he lived there very peacefully until his death in the nineteen seventies, which I'm astonished at because I was around and I don't remember hearing anything about him. During World War Two, we upolled volunteered to be a test subject for various kinds of vaccine scientists were trying to perfect to help our soldiers in the Pacific theater of operation who were being

exposed to various kinds of diseases. So now here's a question if Nathan Leopold didn'ts did guide in the electric chair and wasn't used as a human guinea pig, is it possible that some soldiers who later got a vaccine he tested would have died? I mean, isn't it isn't It doesn't one life affect another. And so I mean, you know, most times we don't get this philosophical because it gets so emotional when we're talking about about crime

and death. And and look, if it was my child, I mean I would I would kill the guy and take the penalty of being honest, you know, unlike Michael Ducacus in nineteen eighty eight. But that's another story. And I just feel that the death penalty not only doesn't it work, it's too expensive. And these individuals, you are so right, then they just want to die, many of them,

because they've led such lousy lives. We're releasing them from their from their their own personal terror by killing him, put him in jail, keep the lights on all day. They'll go schizophe it. In three years, you'll get what you want. You'll get your revenge. We'll put him into you know what'll put him into the general population. Somebody will kill him. It inevitably happens, you know, don't make

a mistake. Does anybody in their right mind to think that if O. J. Simpson wasn't segregated in his Nevada prison, he would be he would be alive. I'm sorry, he'd be dead. Somebody would take him out so they could say that they killed the guy that killed you know, that that killed this murderer. And if OJ wants to sue me for saying that, go ahead and do it make my day punk.

terror for the rest of your life. I don't know if anybody's really comfortable any of these killers, like you say, somebody might just just the way the thing works, you know, might just want to kill him just to have their own infamy.

have committed the crime. Ray is. The guy that was killed was a drug dealer who is over six feet tall. He was shot through the shoulder from behind, and Raymond Gray is about five feet seven. If he stands on his tiptoes, how does a guy who's five feet seven standing on his tiptoe shoot a guy from on top doesn't work. So between that the affidavit from the real bad guy saying that he did it and that he worked with his partner in doing it, we know that

ray didn't do it. And the irony here is that Raymond Gray is one of the greatest African American artists in the United States. He's become a great artist before behind prison walls. And the reason I'm mentioning it is because first he shouldn't be there, but second, it's so difficult to even get anybody to talk about this any publicity because people don't want to know Dan then an

innocent man is in jail. They want to know the system works, just like they want the bad guy like a Gary Hilton to sit down in the electric chair and be electrocuted. It's a lot easier to do that than to deal with the reasons behind these things. I mean, if we dealt with the reasons behind these things, these crimes, if we dealt with what makes a serial killer in a case like Gary Hilton, we could have stopped it. People would be alive. But that didn't happen, and that's what we hurt. Trust.

he picks up a gun and he shoots his stepfather. Okay, yeah, he's hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital. Okay, I got a question, guys, did you follow him? You hospitalize this dude? Any any shoes? It's his stepfather. I mean that's violent, that's violent for today. In the nineteen sixties, it was unheard of, and he was fourteen. Yes, and wait a minute, he gets better. So now when he gets to be about sixteen going on seventeen, he volunteers for the United States Army. Oh

I'm sorry. Would somebody please explain to me why it is you didn't check out the dude and't find out what he did, or did you check it out and say he'd be a great candidate? And who decided to take a guy who was in a psychiatric hospital and put his finger on the nuclear trigger because that's the way it was. I mean, they had hand held nukes. They were like mortar fired and they put this guy's

finger on it. Okay, fine, you know what happens then, like I said, he winds up going schizo in the army. Does anybody follow him? No? Not, as far as I know, we could find out any of this. And the and the kicker on all of this is nobody seems to care. I mean a trial, they introduced most of this evidence. Nobody seemed to care because the crime was so horrific,

And so it gets lost. And as that gets lost, Dan, that means that the next time around it's going to get lost again and again and again, and the possibility and nobody goes back and says, Okay, who is responsible for this? Nobody takes any responsibility for any of this stuff. I mean, that's the problem as far as I'm concerned, because nobody responsibility. Yeah, I think that you know that.

sees and the pattern continued. Here's what happens. He gets now, he gets out, and then his mother besides I don't want him around owned and ships him off to a neighbor for a year, and you know why. But he prospered during that year with the neighbor. That's what's interesting, because he was in a loving environment, which he did

not have in his home. And during the trial, what was so fascinating was that his aunt, who was from Argentina because his stepfather was Gary is from here, but the mother remarried an Argentinian and so his father's sister, who would be his aunt, came into the courtroom and it was the only time that Gary smiled. He looked at her. He hadn't seen it, probably in thirty five years, and you could see the sympatico between them, and she testified that the mother was never loving to the son.

Now I'm not trying to make this simplistic court make any excuses. I mean, this man committed terrible, terrible crimes. But what I'm saying is why didn't this system that was set up to do something about this do something about it. Why didn't that you just mentioned something, you said, incarceration, You know what, it might have saved the life. Supposing they did incarcerate him for a while, it might have saved the life in some way. That kind of intervention

it's hard to say. But the thing is this, this book, and this guy blew a part of all of my notions about serial killers. I mean I never expected to find a serial killer that was made. I always thought they were born with some a barren gene. Well maybe there are some, but not this guy. This guy was made. And you know what else, when he was in high school, this guy was like he was he's a professional musician, he was a drummer. People liked him. And it wasn't

you know, he wasn't modeling behavior. I mean, this is something that happened over a period of time, and that's what That's why when he finally was condemned to death, I'll be honest, but what am I going to do? Why I was? I I cried, Okay, I cried. I cried because all I can think about was this young man who had all of these capabilities. And the guy, by the way, he's got a genius IQ in the high or twenties, so he had a lot of opportunity.

And if the chips had fallen differently, we're not having this conversation and four people are alive, and so that's what's propelled me to continue on the case and try to answer certain questions that remains semed unanswered, because it's just too damn easy for people not to accept responsibility for their actions, and you know, they need to accept responsibility for their actions, especially when human lives hang in the balance.

genetic are they made? Is it the environment? What creates this kind of abearance, this kind of mutation in the human form here this serial killer?

Is this something? I mean, obviously these other psycho psycho psychological problems are present, but it isn't it ultimately that these people understand what line they're crossing and still choose to go there yet in a dark area?

of death. They get a kick out of it, and many of these individuals, I wouldn't put Hilton in there, but many of them certainly get a sexual thrill out of it, and they also get a tremendous thrill out of using their intellects. And they're not you know, they're not all geniuses, but they have a feral instinct certainly to avoid detection, and they definitely do enjoy playing that cat and mouse game with the police. And we see that time and time again, don't we. I mean, how

many times? Do I mean? Look at you? Look at Hilton. Hilton is a great example. Look at you know he doesn't get captured because of great police work. You know this is this is not you know. I mean, I think most of your listeners know that it showed like Criminal Minds is fiction, that the FBI has never caught a serial killer. I think they know that. You know, there's no such thing as Hannibal Lecter, you know, I mean,

I'd say Anthony Hopkins in the street. He didn't look anything like Hannibal Lector to me.

know what happened. He drove down off the mountain where he killed her. He pulls into a gas station and broad daylight, and he starts bleaching the rear of the car, the rear of the van out to get rid of the evidence. Now Gary knew better than that. He knows, he knows that bleach is not going to cover anything up. He did it because he wanted to get caught. He was tired of the cat and mouse game. We see this time and time again that they play this game.

They control the moment of death, and when they've gotten their kick out of it and they're tired of it, they just give up and they and they let the police capture them. We see again it's time and time again. Very few, I mean, there's very few cases where the cops actually trap the dude down.

on the front page of the local newspapers. He knew they were looking for him by that, and that they they they knew twenty four hours before Meredith died who they were looking for. They knew exactly who they were looking for. So when he saw the newspaper, he didn't high tail it for the hills, or get on a plane or whatever the case might be, or drive north, you know, to ken A bunk Port, you know, and say loo to George W. Bush. Not that's how I got that in there. What he decided to do was

he said, I'm just going to clean out my van. Well, let me see if I get this straight. Gary, he pictures on the front page. It's on the news. It's daylight and you're cleaning out your van in a in a shopping center and a front full view of people who you know, what do you think happened? Somebody saw him and call the cops. That's how they got him. And you know what when they when they arrested him, I thought, all of us in the press, what that

they arrest them? You know, and we figured, Okay, they're arresting them, and they're going to hold them for killing Meredith? Right right?

had a plea agreement with the guy. Within ten days the guy they had they had signed sealed, delivered life with parole, and he was on his way to Florida to stand trial and The reason for that is what we talked about earlier, which is the death tunnel. Will Georgia has it, Florida has a fast track on it. And so the idea was to get him into Florida, to try him there and put him into the into the electric chair or the death chamber or whatever they want to call it right now.

don't really care. He says, you know it's going to take you fifteen or twenty years to execute me, and by that time, you know, I'm going to be a really old man, so you know, do whatever you're going to you want to do. That's what he and for that reason he wouldn't cooperate. He would have given him. See that's the other thing, if they were willing to make a deal. Now think about this for a second.

They knew, well I shouldn't say they knew they had these bones, hand bones and skull bones, but they couldn't make a DNA match, and so they couldn't say for certain that this was the dead woman. Now they did have They eventually had some blood evidence that they were able to find which did tie him in to Cheryl Dunlap in Florida, but it was never one hundred percent positive that those bones were Cheryl's. So here's the question. If you're the family, you want to make a deal

so that he tells you the truth. Would you want to live the rest of your life and not knowing for certain? On her gravestone On Cheryl's gravestone, I went to her grave, it doesn't say the date of death because they don't know the date of death. She's got kids. Those kids have to live with death for the rest of their lives, and their families and their family families. So what's it worth to you to have? Is is

revenge worth lack of closure? And right now, as far as what's happening in Fara, because of other aspects of this case, this is a good possibility they're gonna commute his death sentence. So now what happens if they commute his death sentence, You're gonna you'll never get Not only are you denied the opportunity for revenge, you don't get

the final answer if that really is Cheryl Dunlap. Sure, it's Cheryl Dunlap, well ninety nine point nine percent sure based on circumstance, But that did wouldn't you like to know how it happened? Wouldn't you like to know the day it happened? So you've got the closure once in for all. I don't know, well I would.

trails of death, and we've talked politics. The only thing I want to say about politics is that that's why you have this thirst for revenge a lot of times, because it is definitely all tied up in politics.

for the death penalty. But there's these other major factors like how many wrongful convictions, how many people are working in the pursuit like yourself, And I want to applaud you for your efforts too to get this mister Gray out of prison. Is that there's so many people with so much, you know, really really good evidence that the prosecutors are really just it's a matter of ego. They don't want to go back there. They don't want to admit they made a major problem, like that made a

major mistake, and a mistake is too nice a word. Basically, when someone spends forty years of their life in prison for something they didn't do. So I applaud you to that, But I think what will happen. I think what will happen is that the people have to demand and the people voice their opinion, and what you'll have is you'll have the law changing, that's all. And maybe some certain states will be the last to make the change, but certainly it seems that there is less of a desire

for it for various reasons. But the good reason is wrongful convictions. That's just seems to be sensible.

it's not going to be used correctly. There's got to be a better way, and there is a better way, but but people refuse to see it. And I mean, you can you know, you can bargain with serial killers. It's it's happened time and time again. What do you think Gary cooperated in Georgia because they said we're gonna give you life with parole. They knew he wasn't going to get out, So what were they giving up. They were giving up nothing in order to solve the case, at least as far as their concerned.

offenses and they weren't recognized by the law previously. So I can see everybody's point, but I do think that the tide will turn because of just runful conviction and the price tag and people waiting twenty years for death row. Anyway, like you say, some states are much quicker, but none of them are very quick really, so none.

parole I like that type of sentence. Everybody's happy, they're never getting out, They're going to die in prison, and we're we're still a good society that's willing to take care of them and give them three squares a day and give them and protect them as much as we possibly can, which is something that they didn't afford their victims.

and very very interesting. So and the book that if people were listening to is the program is Trails of Death Gary Michael Hilton, with my special guest Fred Rosen. So thank you very much. Fred. I hope to talk to you soon with your new project and the best of luck and.