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You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking Killers in true crime History and the authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker Bck. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime History and the authors that have written about them. Serial Killer couples Bonded by sexual depravity. Abduction and Murder chronicles the true crimes of sexually motivated serial killers who are intimate.
In this latest true crime book from award winning best selling criminologist R. Barry Flowers, nine gripping tales examined killer couples from America, England and Canada whose murderous reign of terror knows no end till they are brought to justice. Chapter one, we have Raymond Fernandez and Martha Beck. Chapter two, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley. Chapter three, Fred West and Rosemary West. Chapter four, Gerald Galago and Charlene Galago. Chapter five,
Douglas Clark and Carol Mary Bundy. In chapter six Alvin Neely and Judith an Neely, Chapter seven, Alton Coleman and Deborah Denise Brown, Chapter eight James Gregory Marlow and Cynthia Kaufman, and in chapter nine Paul Bernardo and Carla Jmalka. The book that we are featuring this evening is Serial Killer Couples by journalist and author Are Barry Flowers. Welcome back to the program. Are Barry Flowers? And thank you to this interview.
It's my pleasure, Dan, I'm glad to be here.
Oh, thank you very much, Barry. This is going to be a great show, great book for a big true crime fan like myself, and I know the audience is a devout group of true crime fans. Here are some ones that we are not so familiar with, so let's get right to it. You are an award winning true crime author. Exactly what compelled you to write about these particular couples? Why write about serial killer couples? Tell our audience.
Please, okay, Well, I wanted to write about couples who were intimately involved and serial killers at the same time, because they're unusual. You have a lot of well, most of the killers that are serial killers are solo killers. One they operate alone and all across the country. And then you have killers who are pairs or even in a group, but they're not romantically involved, so you know, they don't have the same type invested interest in the relationships.
So with serial killer couples, I wanted to examine killers who are involved in their romantic lives as well as this uh desire to kill Right.
Now, now, you could have picked there are you know, even though it's fairly unusual to have serial killer couples, it's amazing that you've had even these nine incredible examples. But please tell us what was the criteria used to sort of whittle that list down to these nine extraordinary
serial killer couples. What criteria did you use used to pick from the you know, numerous ones that you could have picked from in you know, the course of history, because you have some older cases here and some more recent cases. So tell us what were you what was your criteria used to pick these particular serial killer couples.
Well, I wanted to focus on couples who were not only intimately involved, but uh were sexually motivated in their killings and right desire to kill, and so that in and of itself separated them from some killers who may kill, for example, for money, with money being their primary motivation.
Right And the case of all these killers, they were driven largely by the need to sexual depravity, need to sexually assault, to enslave their victims, to fourth their will upon them to do what they wanted, sexual slavery.
Right now, let's let's get to the cases in specifically that you've picked for your incredible book. And let's start with chapter one with Raymond Fernandez and Martha Beck and and tell us a little bit that these are These were termed the Lonely Hearts Killers. Yes, and so tell us first why they were called the Lonely Hearts killers. Give us a little bit of that background, and then tell us in what and whereabouts exactly because you said
there's cases from England and America and Canada. So tell us where this case was and around what time frame, what era it was, and please explain why they were termed or coined the Lonely Hearts Killers.
Okay, I'd be happy to Raymond Fernandez and Martha Beck were killers in the nineteen forties in America. They were dubbed Lonely Hearts killers. By the press because they were meeting victims, targeting victims who placed lonely hearts ads in personal ads in magazines and newspapers. So they preyed upon lonely women gullible looking for love, and hence the lonely
hearts killers and the Fernandez and Beck. In addition to wanting to take advantage of these women sexually, they were interested in building from them anything they could get their hands on, money, other items of value, and so they were the consummate con artists as well as assaulting these vulnerable women sexually and then murdering them. I should add that Martha Beck was around three hundred pounds, so she
they had an unusual relationship. Say the least turned Raymond Fernandez, but they were I mean, he was a good looking guy from born in Hawaii and uh but he and the two what they had in common was their desire to murder and to con people out of their money. And so a problem arose here in which the three hundred pounds Martha Beck found herself jealous increasingly as they had an actually been conning women and then moving on to new victims, letting those previous victims live. But the
more this went on the more. Uh, Raymond Fernandez was sexually involved with the victims, all this part of the Khan and sexual motivation, but Marx that grew increasingly jealous and she began to take that jealousy out on the victim on the victims of the Khan, that she felt that it wasn't enough just to rob them blind. She wanted them dead because they were sexually active with their men.
And so that's really the impetus for turning from being con artists and uh, sexually active with these women to murdering them. And uh, they would to keep this.
Sorry, what was the what was the what found interesting was what was the practice of voodoo? What did that have to do with this with these murders of anything?
Oh? Well, uh, actually the voodoo was something that Raymond Fernandez said. I don't think he actually believed in voodoo, but he used this as a means to convince others that he was a person that was almost invulnerable to harm, right, which is strange in a way considering he was in an accident on a boat afraider heading to America and he was hit in the head by something on the boat. A still hatch fell and hit him right on the top of his head and he was seriously injured, had
a factor's go and damaged to his frontal lobe. Anyway, this appearance he caused his personality to change, and that's when he began going into these going after these lonely hearts women and met Martha Beck and turned to murder as part of their to few of their fantasies and their desire to control these women.
It's interesting too that she says that around she had a glandular problem, so that around ten years old she was fully formed like an adult with the sex drive of an adult.
Yes, yes, that is true, and so that was part of her She actually placed an ad herself, a lonely heart's ad that Raymond Fernandez answered, and that's how they got together. So she was definitely sexually charged. She often betted men in the military before she became involved with Fernandez.
This couple were arrested see February twenty ninth, I believe, nineteen forty nine in Michigan, right after they'd murdered one of their victims, a forty one year old woman and her two year old daughter, and Fernandez and Beck had also murdered a woman in New York prior to that, so they confessed to the murder in Michigan under the hope that they would not have to go to New York because there was no death penalty in Michigan, right
that was in New York. So they signed a long confession, getting assurances of the cuating attorneys that they wouldn't be extradited to New York. But unfortunately the pressure was put on them by the New York authorities who wanted to see them die fry for their crimes against one of
their citizens. So Michigan renigged them the deal and extradited the two to New York, where they trial for murdering a woman and were found guilty sentenced to death in August nineteen forty nine, and on March eighth, nineteen fifty one, Fernandous and Beck were actually executed in the electric chair at Sing Sing Present for their crimes.
Right now, the let's talk about seventeen women, Do we know the actual tally of people they did actually did murder? Because when they were arrested, Raymond Fernandez was quite flamboyant and was quoted as saying, I'm no average killer and he talked about his power and in his way with women, he told investigators. So was there some sort of embellishment or were they quite sure that tell us what the tally was officially on how many murders.
The official tally was three victims, but the authorities believe that they may have killed as many as twenty. But because they were moving around, they weren't able to pin down some of these others that they still strongly suspected they were guilty of.
Right, and it really captured national attention at this time because of the shocking nature of the crimes and the lurid details and the graphics and you know, the horrible details. They drowned the two year old child just because they wouldn't stop crying.
Yes, yes, they were certainly pair that stood out during that time, and they weren't afraid to talk about their sexual excapades in graphic detail during the trial. And they just were unusual couple in the nineteen forties of being a male female killing team that was motivated as much by sexual conquest as profit. And it caught up to them and they paid the ultimate price.
Right, A very interesting case. Let's move now to Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, and this is from the UK, from England, and their murders were called the Moors murders. Interesting case two because there was a witness that was important that trial, and because this witness not only witnessed the murder itself by Ian Brady. Watch this guy axe murder someone that also he's also privy to their confession
and they're boasting about other murders. So tell us about Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, and tell us again about what year or what era this was, and tell us a little bit about David Smith and Ian Brady and Myra Hindley.
Okay, well, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley were British serial killers in the nineteen sixties. They were murdered five children, sixtually assaulting them as well, and these became known as the More Murders, a reflection of the fact that most of the victims who buried in the saddle Worth More which is right now and it's private Greater Manchester, England. So Brady and Hindy were pretty fascinated with phonography and
committing the perfect murder. The two were inspired by American teen killers Richard Loebe and Nathan Leopold who murdered a fourteen year old named Bobby Frank in Chicago during the nineteen twenties. So anyway, Hindy and Brady were interested in abducting children, sexually assaulting them, torturing them, and killing them. And David Smith.
Was the.
He started off being just a friend of the two, but he ultimately married Myra, Hindy's sister, so he became her brother in law right, But he also was hanging around the two enough to see some of the things they were doing. And he with one hand deregu it is.
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Act to Death and be one of their victims. And then I and Brady attempted to get David Smith to help him to dispose of the body, but ultimately he went to the authorities to report what he had witnessed and his role, which consisted of helping to move the body from one room to another. So ultimately he pointed the finger at his friends, his wife's sister and her man in her life in Brady and they were finally brought to justice after being able to successfully murder these
young children. Uh burying most of them in the moors, and they were ultimately found guilty of most of the murders. At least one of the children was never found, UH, but fortunately they were able to locate most of them, and Brady was convicted on three of the murders in Hindi two of them, and Uh Brady received three concurrent life sentences and Hindy got two lifeent.
But was it David Smith that actually was told by Ian Brady and Myra Hindley or was it his wife which was Myra Hindley's sister, which one of them actually had heard the details of them burying the children and that's when that prompted the police that had enough I guess enough enough warrant to be able to go search this area and then they found four the four of
the bodies in those moors there. So which which was it David or was it was it his wife that actually had heard them boasting about that there was other victims?
And was actually David actually David He had a sort of a bond with Ian Brady, and Brady liked to brag about his crimes and he had just the right person to listen at the time, and Uh of course, that ended up backfiring on him later as David Smith finally did the right thing for himself and his wife and went to the authorities.
Right.
Ian Brady was ultimately career to be criminally insane, sent to a psychiatric hospital where he remains to this date.
Interesting. Interesting, And we'll talk about another case that was they were an American case where they talk about that there were the US counterpart to Ian Brady and Mara Henley. We'll talk about that that couple a little bit later as we go through this. Now the next chapter, you have a couple that is quite notorious. I just saw a program on Investigation Discovery about these two people, and
I've read numerous stuff. Fred and Rosemary West. Please tell us about this notorious serial killer couple.
Oh, Fred West and Rosemary West about as wicked as they come, as they were richterial killers during the nineteen seventies nineteen eighties. They were believed to have murdered at least eleven young females and possibly as many as thirty, including two of their own children.
Incredible.
They were motivated, as were these other serial killer couples covered in this book, by sexual desires, perverse sexual desires and having pleat control over their victims and torturing them and knowing that they could get away with something and fielding they had to upper hand on society at large, and unfortunately they did for a while there they would often target unaways and people looking for vert They would offer them lodging or working as a nanny for them.
They had eight children the West between them, and on top of that, Rosemary was a part time prostitute during this time and some of those children were actually fathered by some of her clients.
Wow.
But on top of that, she and Fred West were incestuous with some of their own some of their children, some of their daughters. This was a sexual deviance that was passed down from the generations, as Rosemary's father was incestuous toward her and at least one of her children his granddaughters. So Fred West and Rosemary West were probably the most infamous as a couple amongst serial killers in the UK, and they finally were brought to justice June
nineteen ninety four. They were charged with eleven murders. Fred was charged with eleven, Rosemary ten, and then shortly after Fred was charged with yet another murders, one of his victims was unearthed see in nineteen ninety five. January nineteen ninety five, Fred West hung himself in his jail before he could go to Trout, so he black Church, who faced up to what he'd done, taking what he felt was an easy way out. I guess sure.
And they were quite elderly by the time they were the long arm of the law caught up with them, weren't they.
Yes, yes, they were older than the typical serial killers, but still active enough to do what they were doing, to be able to lure these young people runaways others looking for a place to stay. They could have gone on indefinitely if the worlds hadn't finally begun to fall
off and they were discovered their secret. I mean, they were burying these victims right on their own property, and it was just incredible that they were able to get away with this for really a long time, by the days of serial killers, spanning parts of two decades.
And how were they finally apprehended for those people that don't know.
Oh, well, they were apprehended once one of their daughters that was missing presumed dead. Eventually Fred West confessed to killing this child and how he killed her, I mean they were. He killed her the same way he killed most of the others, murdering through torture and then mutilating after death. He chopped up most of the bodies and
buried them on the property. So the authorities have been looking for this daughter, and once they were able to her remains, they found other children, other young adults, and you know, the whole thing broke wide open as they both again consessing and blaming one another. Rosemary and Fred, they are just figurable actions, and the police realized just you know what they had on their hands, serial killers
of the worst kind, right, incredible. Rosemary was eventually convicted of killing ten and was sentenced to life in prison.
Now, tell us about this is. This is one that I know that you're very intimate with, having we already spoke about the subject of sex slave murders, which was Gerald and Charlene Galago for those people that don't know, because this is these are not so familiar, these two Gerald and Charline Galego, but incredible, incredibly heinous criminals. These guys very much like Fred and Rosemary in terms of
just despicable. Tell us about Gerald and Charlene Galago, the subject of your best selling book, Sex slave Murders.
Yes, okay. Well Gerald and Chauveline Galago were a married couple living in California. They were serial killers that targeted mostly girls and young adults females in the late nineteen
seventies and early nineteen eighties. They were fueled by sexa fantasies, whereas Gerald had visions of finding girls who would fulfill all his sexual desires, perverse and otherwise, and so he found a willing partner in Charlene, who served as the lure most of the times, enticing victims through offers of smoking marijuana or passing out flyers, and so once she could get them outside over to their van, Gerald was
always their waiting with one of his many guns. When she forced them into the van and sexually assault, torture, murdered them, and then dumped them in various places, often
in the desert or some other areas. That was hard for the authorities to back down, and similar to the West, the Galagos were able to keep this going for a while because either the victims their acts were considered runaways or potential runaways, or they were killing them in different states three states in fact, so that the authorities were never able to connect the dots up until they had murdered ten people, including one woman who was four months pregnant,
so they were motivated. In addition to this, these sex day fantasies, they were playing off one another Gerald and Charlotte Galago in the sense that she was doing whatever she felt she had to do to hold on to him. Even though she grew up Charlene in a privileged life, she grew bored with that somehow and wanted to found herself more captivated by living on the wild side, finding
the bad boy, so to speak, to be with. In Gerald's case, he wanted someone who would be there for him to thick and tin and allow him to carry out his sex stay fantasies, and he and participate in them as well, which she did, and she followed him blindly for a good will there all the way, in fact,
until they were captured. Their last victims were college sweethearts who happened to be in the wrong face at the wrong time when they abducted them in Sacramento and soon after murdered the male and then took the female to an apartment, sexually assaulted her, and then murdered her and they were then on the run as fraternity brother who had of the male victim, Craig miller I, had managed to take down the license plate member of the car that they were forced into, and that led the authorities
to discovering who was behind this abduction of the college sweet Arts, and ultimately they tracked them to Omaha, Nebraska, where they were captured in November nineteen eighty and at that point Charlene was her The whole that Gerald had had on her was released once she was out from under his authority, and she quickly cut a deal with the prosecutors to turn state's evidence for a reduced sentence right, and her sentence really called the public uproar, as she
was given on the sixteen two thirds years for being an active participanting in ten murders. So it was I've talked to others about this, other people in law enforcement and other criminologists, and they find that unfathomable. You certainly could find it hard to imagine in this day and age that someone could participate in those many murders and
only get less than seventeen years. Sure ours, But nevertheless, at the time the authorities felt that they would give her a pass an effect so that they could get the goods on Gerald as the main party that was responsible, the actual perpetrator of most of all of the murders. So he was sentenced to death in two states for his actions, and but he was never actually executed. He was able to keep the appeals going for nearly two decades before he died of cancer in prison.
Yeah, it really worked the system, didn't he.
Yes, he worked it as well as anyone. And I'm sure he probably thought during his long time behind bars that he and reestimated his Oh I should say he thought his hole on Charlene was much stronger than it turned out to be.
Right.
Oh, Fortunately for her, he didn't decide to go after her when he had this opportunity, Otherwise she would never get in to testify against him, and helped stop this madness that the two of them were golfing together.
Yes. Absolutely. Now let's talk about Douglas Clark and Carol Mary Bundy. And what I found fascinating about this case is and this is in the early eighties, but that there's a connection to me.
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Hillside Strangler, Kenneth Bianchi and the Kenneth Byanky. Once he was arrested, he had a woman that was interested in helping him come up with an alibi. And both of these Hillside Strangler and this Douglas Clark, I guess because they've gotten away with crimes and they're you know, charismatic guys. Once they get behind bars, their imagination runs wild and they think they can pull off these ultimate scams to
disprove their guilt. So tell tell us a little bit about Douglas Clark and Mary Bundy where they committed their crimes and some of the characteristics because necrophiliacs are not all these people are necrophiliacs, and then tell us about the Hillside Strangler connection afterwards.
Place Okay, Well, Douglas Clark and Carol Mary Bundy were California serial killers. They were dubbed the Sunset Strip Killers. They did their dirty work in nineteen eighty target team most of the runaways and prostitutes in Hollywood, where they sexually assaulted them, tortured and murdered at least five and some authorities believed possibly ten times as many people were
killed by these two similar of the Gallegos. They were fewed by dark sexual fantasies that included stabbing, strangulation, mutilation, shooting, and necophilia as you mentioned, and they were also into role playing. Carol Bundy had allegedly at times pretended to be the wife of former serial killer Ted Bundy Wow, which wasn't true, but I guess it made for the two of them, Carol Bundy and Douglas Clark. I guess
that perhaps helped fuel their own dark life. Killers. So they were killers who were doing their thing in California, and they were arrested in early nineteen eighty three for these crimes after Bundy admitted to coworkers about her involvement
in the murders, which included killing her ex lover. She was personally responsible for shooting the death her ex lover all within the same time frame, and so the two of them in their bond together bond in homicide was finally shot down once Carol broke down and began talking, and she eventually helped him to be convicted on six counts murder, sentenced to death for each of them, and
he's on death row as a result of that. As far as the association with the Hillside strangler, the main association, it's not an actual association per se, but it's the fact that they were chilling the same types of people in the same location is what connects those two, right. They were following a similar pattern, Douglas Clark and Mary Carrol Bundy in the types of people they were going after and causing that type of attention in the Los
Angeles area. That it was hot at the time, and they really had people looking over their shoulders as they were, you know, wondering what was going on and who was behind these killings, and you know, they would move on from runaways and prostitute to anyone they happened to be out there.
That wasn't at trial. This was a This was a trial that the media attended. It was a even Peter Falk at that time, major Hollywood actor that was in Colombo. Peter Falk was interested in this trial. This Douglas Clark again, this charismatic con man. He thought he was so smart. He served as one of his own He served as his own attorney until he called the judge a gauntless worm, and so his lawyers that were assisting him at that
time took over. So it was quite the What the judge referred to the testimony is an intimate tour of a sewer with all the witnesses and all the lives and the cons that this Douglas Clark was trying to come up excuse his murders. But tell us a little bit about the trial itself.
Okay, Well, he had a four months trial and it was pretty high profile with these multiple counts of murder and victims ranking in age from fifteen to twenty four, I believe, and it did draw quite a few journalists and spectators at the time wanting to see whether or that's a deputy district attorney could actually convict Clark given his own confidence of how well he thought he would do representing himself initially, and fortunately the prosecutions expert witnesses
were able to tie him into victims a number of the victims that have been sexually assaulted, but they weren't able to establish in some instances if the sexual assaultic occurred before or after the victims were killed, right, and they presented evidence from Clark himself regarding his fascination with necrophilia, so they were able to actually tap into his overconfidence
in representing himself. They were able to exploit his weaknesses as an attorney, which obviously he wasn't and he had other quarter point attorneys that were his legal consultants, but he felt he was still advised, of course, but he still felt at the time that he was his best
bet for getting through this. As you know, did he refer to the judge of the gutless worm, and he was made similar type comments throughout the trow But everything he did, everything he said, was ultimately used against him, and starting with his partnering crime prosecution's chief witness, Carol Bundy. She was given immunity to use. Immunity mean that her testimony cannot be used against her, but he didn't excuse her from the other evidence they had against her for
her own crimes. But she testified that she was under his spell and he was murdering these women and forced her to cooperate and participate. So she attempted to put him in the worst light as possible, which is often what killers would do pair killers when they're in custody, They will do what they can to make the other person heavy and make themselves seem gullibum, almost like victims. Sure,
and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But in this instance, the jury concurred with her views on Clark, in addition to the other evidence against him, and he was convicted in January nineteen eighty three of six counts of murder in one count of attempted murder. For being sentenced to death, he's still knowing California's death row at San Quentin, sure, waiting his day destiny.
Yeah, you were talking about to the defense of Once these perpetrators are arrested, they start pointing fingers at each other, and of course every type of defense is tried. What's interesting is there are next subjects, Alvin and Judith Anne Neely. That's exactly what Judith ann and once she could not be considered a youth offender, then her plan b was battered women syndrome, and that of course she was helpless
and forced to do Alvin Neely's bidding. So tell us about Alvin Neely and his partner Judith Anne.
Okay Well, Alvin Neeley and Judith and Neelee were serial killers who went after victims in the early nineteen eighties in the United States the South. They were nicknamed Bonie and Claude after infamous nineteen thirties bandits Bunny and Clyde. They fancied themselves as the modern day Bunnie and Clyde.
I suppose why Bonie and squad though more of bad not to the hillbilly aspect of it.
Earth Well, I think just the fact that they were together as a pair able to commit their crimes and then move on get away with it. So I think they were looking at it in that respect comparing themselves, although it was a poor comparison really, as Bunny and Clyde were a lot different from them, and their motivations
were different. In any event, they murdered two females and tried to kill them man, but he survived the attack, although, as with some of the other serial killer couples, the authorities felt that it was possible that there were many other victims. That's one of the things with serial killers, solo killers, and couples or groups is that they can often move from place to place, committing crimes and killing people, and authorities can never be certain that the crimes they
know about are the only ones that were committed. Many times the perpetrators will embellish their activities and the number of people they killed, but in many other instances they have killed more people than they're willing to admit for various reasons. Some have to do with self preservation, with the death penalty in various states, and other means that could only do that caused them more harm than good.
So in this instance they were known for sure to have murdered two females, the Kneeles, and but they were brutally killed at that one with a thirteen year old girl, she was subducted, repeatedly raped, beaten, and injected with drain cleaner amongst other atrocities, with Judas Neee being directly involved
in this. In fact, she was the one who injected the helpless young girl with this drain cleaner, and she also was the one that shot a male who was the fiance of a female that they abducted and sexually assaulted murdered. So these crimes happened in Georgia and they were able to finally get the goods on both of them.
And in this case it was Alvin Needley who pled guilty to aggravate it an assault and murder in Georgia to try to escape the death penalty himself, so he perceives a life sentence and Judith she was convicted and sentenced to death as well for murdering a thirteen year old and in the process became the youngest female to be put on depth prow in the United States.
Yeah. What we didn't mention too is that they had met when she was fifteen and he was at least they say there were different reports, maybe fourteen years older. Yeah, so there was a dynamic there that you know, I don't know. Of course, I don't believe she was a battered woman, but there was some credence to that based on some of the things that it was a reasonable defense in terms of that she was much younger and maybe more vulnerable and suggestible. But of course it didn't
work at court by the trial. But she did do that, and that she did have that attempt because she tried to be considered a youthful offender, which would have completely changed everything in this case.
Yes, well, there may be some seem to be said for her being conned in the sense into getting involved with Alvin at such a young age. For her, she was trying to escape her own problems at home and thought she found a good escape route in him. But it turned out to be a nightmare for her. But
that notwithstanding, she still participated willingly in these crimes. She wasn't as threatened her course, I don't feel that some of the other female partners in the seria among serial killer couples, But she still had she had the homicidal instincts in her that made her willing to participate in these murders. One of them actually took place in Alabama. Uh.
One of the killings another end Georgia. It was I believe in Alabama that near these Judith Near These death sentence was commuted to life in prison, even though that sparked outraged in the community because no one wanted to see her any possibility that she could get out of prison. But she had also received the life sentence in the other state a Georgia, so she ah the fact that she had the death sentence commuted in Alabama, she there was still steps made to make sure that she wouldn't
become eligible for parole and the getting out. I mean, they were already prepared to ship her to Georgia if necessary, to make sure that she never saw the light of day again. Alvin Easy died in prison, by the way, at the age of fifty two, so he ran out
of time. Even though I personally feel that killers should I'd like to see them there to be ninety nine years old in prison so that they can I think dying is too easy a good way out for them because it's just allowed them to escape these hideous crimes that they've committed. And prison life is very difficult. Of
anyone who's gone to prison. Fortunately I'm not amongst those, but I've spoken to prisoners and a that's a tough life, so it's good when they can spend the rest of their natural life in prison and can stay there for decades, think about these terrible things they've done and hurt other people.
Well, I agree with you, Barry, because what we're going to do is segue instead of going into Alton Coleman and Deborah Denise Brown and James Barry Marlow and Cynthia Kaufman. We're going to go because the parallels between the Alvin Neely and Judithan case in terms of battered women syndrome in terms of serial killers. We just talked about how they made every assurance or tried to make every assurance that this woman would never get out on parole. Because
a lot of people, that's why laws were enacted. Not everybody believes in the death penalty, and I do not believe in the death plone just because of errors. And I do believe that if you're going to spend fifty years or forty years in prison, I think that should be enough. I don't know anybody that would could say, oh, that that's that's that's a cakewalk. Forty years sitting in a cell like an animal. So I think that's got to be sufficient, you know. And yeah, I agree with you.
I hope they live long and get to live and relive what they did, and hopefully, you know, establish some conscience at some point, which I really doubt. But let's talk about Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamalka. Now, this is a case that a lot of Americans don't know so much about, and I hate to say it, Canadians don't
know either. But Paul Bernardo and Carla Jamalka. And what's interesting about Carla Hamalka, and when you can tell, we can explain, is that this woman is free, she is married, she has a child, she has a counseling degree, and she's living in France as far as I know. And it's the only, as far as I know, the only serial killer walking around, multiple serial killer, let's say, a
serial killer being freed after twelve years in Canada. So tell us a little bit, Paul, about Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamalka and the features of their despicable crimes.
Okay, Well, Paul Bernardo and Carlo Homoka were Canadian serial killers, and they were they certainly represent the worst of Canadians. There's no question about that. Their crimes were also sexually motivated, as with the other killer couples covered in this book, and their crimes cost the lives of at least three teenage girls during the early nineteen nineties, and included amongst the victims with Carlo's own younger sister.
Incredible.
Yeah, but I should backtrack for a moment to say that Paul Bernardo, before he ever laid eyes on Carla, was a serial rapist right known as the Scarborough Rapist, had already raped a number of people around the Scarborough area of Toronto before he met Carla, and then once he met her, they quickly bonded and she knew about his previous criminal activity and essentially gave her blessing to it, as she not only allowed him to or was aware that he continued to do this and did nothing about it.
But then the two of them began participating in sexual assaults together and videotaping them, and one of those victims was Carlo's own sister, whom she had given essentially to Paul Bernardo as a Christmas gift in nineteen ninety. Carlo considered her sister's virginity a gift for Bernardo to do with as he pleased, and what he did was raped her after the two of them dragged the sister and then she ended up dying choking on her own vomit.
And at the time, the authorities believed the convincing story that Bernardo and Homoka told them that the girl that just had too much to drink and died as a result of that, having nothing to do with them. The authorities bought into that for a while they were the two. One thing that Bernardo and Smoka had in common with the Galagos is they were able to weave their way in and out of trouble when it presented itself for goodwill.
Ato had been questioned by the police from time to time regarding these rapes, but he was always able to smooth talk his way out of it and dropped as a suspect. In one instance, a detective felt that given his intelligence and poise, it's impossible that he could be discribed borough rapists, and unfortunately, many other victims fell prey to him as a result of this type of kind
job he was able to pull on the authorities. The Carla and Paul went on to sexually assault, rape, abduct, and videotape and murder two other young women that we're aware of and they were finally brought to justice only after Carla had been the victim of spouse abuse. They were married this time, so he was subject to hitting her when the move suited him, and the authorities were aware of this, and eventually, between that and the authorities beginning to close in on both of them, they were
arrested and the police realized that probably not Gard. The evidence finally began to put the pieces together that he was actually the Scarborough rapist, but they didn't realize, you know, just how far reaching his sexual de property was until Carla began to talk. Once she had cut a deal with the authorities that the prosecution that would give her twelve years in prison for manslaughter in cooperation for testifying
against Bernardo. And the thing about this deal is that when the prosecution agreed to this, they weren't privy to the contents of the videotapes that the two of them were making, showing them not only brutally sexually assaulting victims, but the videotapes clearly showed as much as active participant
as Paul Bernardo. So they freely admit that they aired their the authorities, and because they didn't have that at their disposal, and if they had, they never would have made the deal, the sweetheart deal for her, but it was too late to do anything about it. They'd tried to, but Dill was set in stone, basically, and so she
served her twelve years and was released. She did testify against him, Bernardo, and he was convicted of multiple murders and multiple sexual assaults, and he was designated as a dangerous offender, which meant a longer stay in prison in order to protect the public and most likely will be
there for the rest of his days. But in her case, Carla, as you noted, she went on to marry someone else after she had divorced Bernardo sometime earlier, and I had a child, and I believe she moved moved to the West Indies if I'm not mistaken.
But well, you could be right, you could be right. I know she moved out of Canada.
So yes, I think she moved to the West Indies to get away from other notoriety.
Sure, I know they.
Made a movie I think in two thousand and six called Carla was about two infamous Canadian serial killers, but most of it was so from Carla's perspective, and.
So it was discredited.
Yeah, yes, questionable whether or not you've got the true story. I certainly didn't portray her in the light that she should have been. She was very much liked Charlene Gallego, and that she participated in these really terrible crimes. I mean, killing your own sister like that. I can't get any worse than that. But she was, like Charlene, able to plea bargain to a very low sentence relative to the crimes, and was able to essentially get away with murder. I
mean twelve years. This better than nothing at all, I realized, But not you know, in relation to killing these people, being knowledgeable of raping other women and doing nothing to stop it or report it to the authorities.
Well, she wasn't a battered woman, since she wasn't a battered woman, and she was a willing participant, And she was like a couple of these women where she was worried that her husband might stray because he was after younger and younger women, and there was a jealousy thing, and so there is talk of that. You know, even Bernardo said, you know, I went out and she killed. So not to believe Paul Bernardo, I don't think he's got any credibility at all. But she is at least
as equally as evil as he is. And there's almost no doubt about that anybody that reads anything about those videotapes itself or the testimony. She's just self serving and she was not a victim. She just woke up very much like Charlie and Gallego and said, you know what, there's people around me that will support me, and I'll get a good lawyer, and I'll get a good doctor, and somebody's going to go down, but it's not going to be me, so.
Right, Yes, I know, most male female serial killer teams are off in strong weak killer pairs.
Yeah.
In other words, the male partners typically the aggressor the female partners often the passive lure and willing partner in the serial killings. However, there are instances where the female partner and the serial killer tandem I can be just as Letho Rack and Carla is a good example in Judith Needley as well.
Yeah. Well that's hence why they've got the convictions too. So all these serial killer couples that you have nine in total that you've featured, we didn't get able to discuss Alton Coleman and Deborah Denise Brown and James Gregory Marlow and Cynthia Kaufman, very interesting cases. I hadn't heard of both of those, but I want to say also, but I say.
One thing about Alton Coleman and Denise Deborah Brown. Sure, Okay, I just wanted to say they were actually African American serial killers. So they were the only African American serial killer team male female record that I'm aware of, so that gave them their own distinction. And uh, Alton Coleman actually went on to be on FBI ten more wanted fugitive lists. They were so eager to get him, so they were pretty ruthless as a couple.
Absolutely, absolutely very interesting too, James Gregory Marlow and Cynthia Kaufman too. We're gonna have to leave it at that. I wanted to ask you, is are these are both out in ebook and in paperback as well?
And well they're right now and they're in ebook, but they're in kind Nook and iTunes, but they're going to be in paperback and audio in the next few weeks.
Great. Great, Yeah, I know you've been doing really well the ebooks have been taken off. I mean the true crime readers have adopted the book. I just got a Cobol reader myself, so that's going to be great. Be able to travel and read some books, and that's great. I want to thank you very much Barry for coming back on and talking about serial killer couples. And it's a great book and fascinating features on these incredible killers.
Some of them we don't know so well, but thanks to your book, we're going to get very, very familiar with these most despicable serial killer couples. So thank you very much Barry for coming on the program and talking about serial killer couples.
It's been my pleasure. Dan. I hope that I can come back in a few months when my next book, Masters of True Crime, Chilling Stories of Murdering and macarp comes out. I'm the editor, but it's got a group of best selling true crime writers like Harold Scheckner and Captain then Burrow Bear.
Great, I'll be there and.
Get seventeen great stories that you want to talk about for your listeners.
I'm glad you brought that up too, because I had forgotten to mention that, and I wanted to mention that too, that that's going to be great Masters of True Crime? Is it called, and it's going to be out and it's going to be out in the summer, is it?
Yes? In July?
Oh that's great. No, well absolutely, Please remind me if I get a little if I don't talk to you in say June, but please give me a call so that we can have a special program about the release of that. I'm very excited about it because a few of these authors are you know, they're huge. And Catherine Ramselana hasn't been on the program, and Scheckter hasn't been on. But these guys, these people have written some great, great books.
Burro Bear, of course he's a legend. And and you've edited this book, so it's it comes from a real true crime pedigree, and I'm very excited to be able to read it, and of course it'll be amazing program to have for our audience and talk about Masters of True Crime in the summer. Very good and thank you very much Barry for coming on the program. And you have yourself a good night for people listening to the program. You've been listening to our Berry Flowers with his new
book Serial Killer Couples. So thank you very much, Barry, have a good night and thank you Barry.
Talk to me.
Bye bye.