SEATTLE'S JUNGLE KILLER-Mike Ciesynski

to confess the truth. The book that we're featuring this evening is Seattle's Jungle Killer, a detective's account of the first serial killer convicted in Seattle. With my special guests, journalist and author Mike Sinzenski. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Michael Sizensky, all.

So then I moved over to Wyoming, and which is kind of shocking for a Chicago boy to go to Wyoming. And I worked there in Casper for about a year and a half before moving on to Seattle, and I got I was hired by started the police Academy in Seattle on my birthday, October third. But I as October third, nineteen eighty three when I started and I worked. I

worked patrol for a couple of years. Then I was recruited to work undercovering narcotics during the drug wars in nineteen nineteen mid eighties, and then I went into through robbery unit in nineteen ninety I believe, and I worked at robberies and I rotated along with a homicide squad, and then then I was recruited and I was smaller to homicide detective in ninety four, and there I stayed for I stayed for ten years working regular homicides, and then I think was around two thousand and four, two

thousand and five, somewhere around there, I was asked if I wanted to go to cold case, and that's where I did. I went to Cold Case. That I stayed there for I think twelve years. So I'd never planned on spending twenty two years working homicide cases in cold cases, but that's where I ended up going, and it was very rewarding, but I was also I was ready to leave when I left a couple of years ago.

of foliage and a lot of trees. Uh. Mostly people are there are transience and we call them transients, and people who have menial issues we call them two twenties. That's the signal for some of them who has mental issues. And one of the reasons why these people are up there on these transients that have some mental problems are is they cannot function in hanging around with the regular transience downtown. They just don't have the you know, the

mental capacity to deal with these people. And they didn't. I'm killing somebody who don't kill themselves, so they want to be by themselves and as they go to these camps. Well some of these camps though, there are some other people go there and they set up bregor just some are really really nice, you know, tents and campsites. Some of them are just horrid. Well, we'll talk about what

they used to be like. And they go out there and that's what they hang They they do their drinking there and they're socializing and they'll run places, get food, come back and that's where they want to stay. And it's like it's just in a different world. But one thing I really know when I no time I'd ever go up there was when I had a dead body

shooting or something. But loud. It was so loud from the traffic, the traffic noise, you know, because you're surrounded by the freeways there, and even though you're in this wooded area, uh, it's you know, it's it's quite noisy, and it is a very very spooky place to be.

So Denise goes into the turf Bar, which is no longer there anymore, goes in the turf Bar and she sits down there and orders a drink and and I forgot what kind of cigarettes she smoked, but there like some European type cigarettes. And she'd sit there in the bartender and say, oh yeah, yes, she was in here

her usual self. Then she starts getting drunk and starts getting nasty with me, and then I ended up cutting her off and telling her she's got to get out of here, and she she gets up from the she gets up from the table from the bar and says walking outside, you know, swinging her long ponytail. And before she walks out, she yells at the bartender and flips

them off, and out she goes. So when we're doing our canvas thing, that's how I end up running into the bartender asking him to you know him no her, Oh yeah, And I knew the nise and also talked to he said she may have went to this bar and this other bar and this other bar. So I ended up going to like four or five different bars, me and my partner Dick Keg, and we go all these bars. Oh yeah, we knew Denise. You know, she

has a pain. She get drunk, and then she started, you know, going out getting hide with some some guys and come back and she just get nastier and nasty until we had eighty six or out of the place. And every place we went to that was about the same story. What we was where was God bought her and uh and so we're just trying to track crew movements now and that's what that's how that's how it started.

about serial mod cases. But as a young homicide detective, you know, and which I was, you know then in nineteen ninety seven, I never thought I would never work as serial case. They never gave any thought, None of us did, because you know, that's just something that really wasn't you know, very rarely did somebody work a cereal murder case. So that's that's you know, that's how it starts, and that's we got something that came back from doing the going to this class, and uh, we have thing

that's called next up. Who's next up for the next homicide? That I mean is my partner Dick gag and I. So they'd say, uh, one of the next up guys are you and you got a homicide in the wooded area in the jungle? He said, Oh, you gotta be kidding in the jungle. Yeah, the jungle is and it's a it's a woman. So it's a little different twist

on things. Who I say when it's a woman. Uh okay, if it's the usual homicide where some guys getting you know, some guy's gonna fight, some guy gets stabbed, or uh, some guys some gang bangers, you know, shooting at each other. You know that's usually the norm. But uh okay, So uh, Dick and I pack up our stuff and you know, Dick's you know, complained to me and uh and I'm laughing now because we're supposed to go to I think a retiring part of that night for mother homicide effective.

There's a beautiful, beautiful Stumber Day was Stumber twelfth, nineteen ninety seven years ago. And uh so we got out to the jungle and uh, we go out there and there's uh, the state police are around there, and I talked to this trooper and the troopers says, yeah, I was sitting over here or on the side of the road writing up some reports or some citations, and two trains came and they said, hey, there's a body up

over here, come with us and we'll take you to it. Well, he's smart enough, he's not going to go up into the jungle with these two transients. So he calls system back up and he goes up there with five other troopers and they're marching on up there, and uh then all of a sudden, there they get there, they see the victim, loves is later identified as Denise Hers, laying down.

She's on the ground and fully clothed. Her pants are a little bit dirty, she's wearing gym shoes, and she's got a gag in her mouth, and you know, there's uh, look at surely around her neck muscle and and her

and her hands are tied. And so I'm looking down and I'm there looking at the body down and I'm looking and saying, well, what's you Something just really really looked out of place, and it's and it was the bindings on her hand and whether from her these shoelaces and I could look down and I can see that, you know, her shoes are on, but there's no lacism and the hands Like when I talk about this, you know, if you're going to tie somebody up, you're going to

tie their hands together, right, the wrists together in front of them or the back of them. The restrict your moment movement. It's like when they put handcuffs on somebody getting cupped up, get them behind your back. Is you know you want them to bring on her hands? These these laces are they're tight on the wrist, but her hands are like about you know, so what's what's the use of that? You know, I thought it was kind of or unless you do maybe it's it's easier to

carry somebody. So she has no identification. There's no purse there or wallets on the ground, and there's betefactor besides those other two transients. It's the only one the people we see in there. So we take care of business and we you know, we probably the scene and we don't process the scene when you have a another team processing scene. And I know she's right right next to

this one. Little homeless camp. And one of the things I noticed they have, you know, you can tell people are sitting would be sitting around drinking and throwing the beers into a pile. I mean, I don't know how many people are doing it, but a huge pile. But on one of the branches there's an impaled beer camp. But that's kind of weird, you know, just a little branch sign. Somebody stuck it on there, and that will

come into play later down in the story. So when I totally at tectus scenes, like I said, take a picture of that, she only took pictures of everything. Were going to take a picture of a can of bears then just just you know, humor me, and I know, if forget doing it, and they're kind of you know, they take it and take a picture of the can. I says, it's kind of identifiable. And then off we

go to try to identify the victim. And and then later on we do get a a name and an address for and here, and the name was Denise Harris. And so where we go We find her address, and we go we go to meet the gag and go to her address, knock on the door, and a gentleman opens the door and you know, what can we do for you? He goes, this is about Denise, right, He said yes, sir, and she did and my partner looked at he said yes. Yes. He goes, come on in,

and then he goes on to tell the story. He goes on and tells the story about her and about how she'd be you know, she'd be going off and she'd have a drinking prom and narcotics and sweeping around and she gave him disease one time. So so he told us and it was, it was, it was. It was very you know, we found out where he was at lately and gave us a picture of her, and it was just very very very Uh, it was very sad. We walked out of the place. We gave our cards.

We walk in Dick and I and Dick is, no, what do you think? I said, that's not the guys, And they say yeah, he said, sap. You know, here he stays with this woman and he knows she's out running around and you know, he's been drunk and sleeping around and he's still nobody's in love with her. You know, they they met. I think I think they met in the Las Vegas or something. So that's that's that was. So now we just have now we got we got her name. We got to try and identify, uh who

she was with. That's when we went to all the bars that she would hang out at and and she was mostly a loner, no girlfriends or nothing like that, but just going out there drinking and drinking. And they had a substance abuse from m and which many of the victims when you have cases like this, are you having some kind of drug problem. So we worked the case for months, you know, you know, chasing down leads maybe it's this guy, maybe it's that guy, and not

getting anywhere. And in the meantime we're still now we're you know, Thomas said, you know, it sce Tember, and so other cases are coming up and stuff. We got to go work other cases, work at the crime scenes. And but when in a case like this, you know you're really working because it was so unique, I mean with the having somebody tied up and bound and stuff like that. And uh, that's what we did. And so we just kept looking the case and then another another

victim uh came into play. Her name was you know, Antimate, Antimate Antonate Jones. They called her, they called her Tony and once again, uh, she's the other girl. She was half white, half African American and uh street life, prostitution, drug mostly drug abuse and uh kind of a petite, petite thing. And she'd hang on the Pioneer Square area, which is right downtown. But we find her body. A couple of transients are walking and clicking, clicking like boxes.

Uh the cardboard, I mean, I pulls over this cardboard and there's a decomposed body and uh later identified as antimate Intimate Jones. Well it's hurt, but you know, her skeleton remains. And they got her up on an Autosi table and taking picture and you can see she has a ligature around her throat and a gag in her mouth and it's skeletonized now. And so there's a skull and it's very creepy looking picture, you know, because there's a skull with the mouth why gaping open and with

the I think it was that question. I think is either braziers or pantic was used as a gag in her mouth, and then her hands are bound also. It was you know, it was, it was, it was. And we look at those you know later on it wasn't my case. It was detectives quite Siger's case. And then it comes up and she releases on her hands also. So we're working, we're working the we're working the case. Well actually it wasn't quite Sagres case of some other

detectives case. And they're working the case and until until later on they says, now this is like the same killer. We both that they proved both of the cases, and they decided to the powers, they decided to give us the cases to work both of them in which we do.

So we started working the case and chasing down LAIDs, interviewing once again, interviewing transients that they have some menial issues, you know, and nobody want to be there, but you know they are cooperating semi and so there we just we just go on and keep working and I'm working on working all the cases. And there was a uh it was it was now now we're getting into into the winter. We're getting into winter. And get a get a phone call. I get a phone call collect. You know,

you got a collect call from the King County jail. Fall, said Dwayne Harris. Do you accept the drugger is now except you know, let's kick I get those all the time, you know, all the dectives that guys calling up they want to get out of the other one, help us find the bad guy, or you know whatever. And uh, this guy say's talking to me about the case, and you see, I'll help you with that case. You know, you got to come get me out of jail. You know, I just want that's what I want. I want to

be out of here. Yeah, right, yeah, coming back in the aston. Well he does call back. In fact, I come in sometimes and I have four or five messages on my phone and these guys. So he goes, I'll tell you something about this case. I just want to was you know I was there, man, I know the guy who probably did this because I was there. He goes, I'll tell you something. You don't know. He never found her purse, did you. And I'm thinking, man, how do

you know that? You know, because we didn't find her purse. So I end up later on I go and I get him out of get him out of jail, and you bring him out of jail, and uh, he take us up to the crime scene. And he's a big guy. He's he's he's a really really a big guy now, Dwayne Harris is his name and no relation to the niece herst And he's got a tattoo on his arm

Chili Willy and they call me Chili Willie. And he's got a couple of bum tattoo tears down his cheek, which some gangs say that's like for the movie which kind of shooting game that movie something, but it changes. So, uh, we got him, you know, said he's be strapping dude. He's I'm sick here. He's probably least six to one, you know, I mean, uh, and you could tell he's

kind of a tough dude. Uh. So we got a wet ankle chains on him and we also have a big belt around his waist with handcuffed to his to his side and uh, he says, yeah, this is where he brings up there and he's pretty close to where he puts these hares his body hip in the jungle. Yeah. But he says in factor her head was this way and her feet were that way. He said, okay, that's talking and uh Stone walking around here. I said, once again, it's the the ground changes so much because the foilage

and stuff. This the winner and he's walking in there, and he says, matter of fact, he's turning on, he's looking and he goes, there's a tree over here, man. Because I stood up and I hit my hand on this tree, bnch and news like a beer can and paled on it. Now hit my forehead on it, cut in my head. I said, get you know, And so right there, I thought, Now this dude was up here, man, h this guy, this guy was up there. Now whether he's whether he's a killer, or he's where he was

getting this information from. Because all of these guys will you know, they they'll say they were there just to get it, you know, to get out of jail or something. So what what we went back.

of knows that. But when he says that about her, you know where she was tied up and and he made a face and he says, yeah, she had something in her mouth and he he opens up his mouth, you know, showing like the gag that he had Denise head in her mouth, sweet thing. And you know this this cat, you know, this cat was up there. You know, so that was you know. So so now now I'm getting phone calls from this guy. Cluck. You know, you're a cluck. Call again Connors. You know, I'm here and

he's trying he's gonna help us out. You know, he's gonna tell us where this that that trying to end up trying to find out where this alleged suspect at and I can tell you know, he he give us a little bit of truth in a couple of lies also, and so then so then he, uh, he takes us. Then he says, and I'll tell you somebody, you never found the killer about that girl? H up up in the woods that with the other places are? Did you

man that that body? You know, Anthony Jone He called her Tony and he said now, and he goes, I'll take you up there. So we went up. We went up there and uh he said, yeah, he was over here. He was, you know, this is the way her body was and stuff. Okay, and uh he's he's pretty pretty close all about that, you know, about where they were, what happened. So we go out and pick this guy up in jail. And he was in the in the Kent jail, which is the south of the city here.

It's in the in the count but it was south city. So it's kind of pain to drive all there, pick them up every day every morning and go drive around, you know, looking for people that may know these this. They're looking for this Smith guy, and he's providing us information the whole time, and I'm like, okay, okay, but once again it's half that's half the stuff is true. Half the stuff is uh you know, blogoney, you know we're not you know, we're not buying it, and we're

not trusted with him. We're watching him very clol see think that he's gonna try to uh try to escape, you know, and h but it goes on and on. So finally, uh, finally we're gonna take him. We're gonna go find some other he's gonna take us where some other bodies. And I got him sitting up in my office and with a cup of coffee where he'd call it a cappuccino. I give you the cappuccinos, leave man, Okay, now we'll get your coupe you chili. And he says, you know, also a let me back up, I said,

and he says, uh, let me take it. Let me take you where you never recovered the purse. Did you take you where he threw the purse? And uh so we went to the today area. He says he threw it down and threw it down some sewer or something like that. I had this city come and pump out the sewer and stuff and I never did. I never did recover that the purse. So finally, you know, if they're going out with this guy for it must have

been like three weeks. I come back to the room one time and a couple of guys, my partner, I'm saying, now, this is this is gonna be us. You know, I don't trust this guy. He's even trying to do something. You know, we're trying to placate him. And yeah, I said, yeah, but what else? What else are we gonna do? So all of a sudden, I come back to the room and he's let's take us out. We're looking, we're gonna go back at the jungle, And then come back in

the room where he's sitting there. We getting we'll give him a magazine and kept a couple of smokes in this cappuccino, and he says me, he is Mikey, Mike. He's as we used to call me, Mikey Mike. He goes, I'm tired. I'm gonna tired. I'm gonna tell you the truth. I killed those two. I killed those two, and I killed another bitch too up there, and I said, wether. He goes to Olivia smith Man and I said okay, And so everyone said said tight a man, and I

went back outside, got a right sporn. Told my partner Dick Gagen, who was getting his boots and stuff getting ready to go up there, go up there looking for more more boys. I said, hey, he just he just confessed that he did the murders and Olivia Smith. I think that's I said, I think that's Steiger's case. Cloyd sed I said, you better get in a call coming here. I mess. I talked to him and from Gagnon looking at me, and he says that you you shitting me.

I said, truth, buddy, Okay, So off I go. I go back in there, and I've taken a confession from him, and shortly after that, my other partner came in. Steiger came in. He did confession on the Olivia Smith case. Now Olivia Smith, she was a nobody is sawn on January tenth, nineteen ninety eight, in a stairwell at the bottom of a stairwell, and she had been throat had been cut, and she'd been stubbed numerous times in the chest and also in the buttocks, superficial wounds in the buttox.

I forgot the tune when they stabbed you or sometimes you do. It's like they're playing, you know, they just experiment. They starts stabbing and stabbing victims in them in the Botox area. But she had her throat cut, I mean it was in her hand was cut and there was blood over looking at the crime scene photos because I didn't go to that scene, but I could see that, you know, she was you know, one of her shoes was off of what you know, when she's laying there

in a crumpled position. But looking at the photographs when close you could see really there was a lot. But once again there was a lot of blood right, and there was a lot of blood. Has happened, food cut, her shoelaces were half out of one shoe. And but I can't really put that together with anything with you know, with the other cases where victim was tied up with the shoelaces. And but later, but but Chili told us later on he goes, he told us what happened. He said,

I was smoking. I was smoking some crack with her, and I was going to kill her the whole time. And I got behind her and I started choker and all of a sudden, she pulled the knife out and and she cut my hand. He shows his wound on his hand and he has a scar on his hand. And so I was getting able to get it back, and I just started stabbing her in her throat and I cut her throat and then I stabbed her in the wait and say buttocks in the ass. And then and I was taking her shoes off. But I was

losing so much blood. And it was really cold lot that day. And he took the stigger to work case together. It was like, you know, when he was fun to call, it was like, you know, seven degrees outside, and she goes, oh, So Julie said, I'm passing up. So I had. I had, you know, I had to lead. You know, I didn't want to leave, but I had to leave. The reason why later on working with serial murder cases that I had these guys, you know, it's the killing parties really

boomba boom. They enjoy that, they get off on that. Then they enjoyed being with the body and either tying them up or whatever. There's a lot of times you find out what it was their signature. Now his, like I said, his was tying up the bodies some of them. Sometimes it's positioning in the body and uh, the killers and shirt things into the victims you know, body, and they all have a little you know where they position the legs is spread out all there, put them on

their knees and stuff. They like spending time with them. And they'll think about it all the time. Serial murders doing the social path, they'll think about it over and over and over again. And that's all they do. You know, they don't have any They shouldn't look like they have emotion there, but they don't have any emotion, you know. Now, it's not like you and I don't feel sorry about anything, nothing, nothing. All the thing about is killing and I don't care

who I have. These guys that killed people thirty years ago. And that's exactly how they did. The color the color the drapes now word they got the you know what the person said to them. And that's how and that's how Chilli was and that's what he was doing. So Chili had a you know, he killed. So he kills Olivia Smith.

gets arrested for that. Then he gets bored inside the jail and he calls me and we go from there.

drive that Cloyd woul drive, ride would drive. And when I'm driving the van and we got Chili handcuffed, you know, in the back seat, and there's Kloy sitting back there with a you know, a little sawd off shotgun, and he says, Chili said, man, what would he don do with that chot and he goes, I'm gonnay. He goes, I'm gonna kill you if you try to run. He goes, man, now you wouldn't do that. He goes, oh, yeah, yeah

I would, Yeah, I would be I would. And then we were getting out of the we're getting out of the van. We're back in our police station and we're in the basem going to the service and Cloyd joking, he goes, look out, Mike, I think he's running. I think he's running. Be careful, and Chili says, oh, man, not that stuff off. Man. Would you come on, come on, man,

let's get out of here. And it was it was a little comic, a little comic relief, you know, I'm thinking, yeah, and he got my mind, and we well, yeah, we would have had to dump him, if we if we had Once again, I kept thinking, and the sergeants kept thinking. My sergeant, uh Dave rittand and and Dick. He always thought, he goes, this guy's you know, you guys are we're taking too much time with this guy because we had him like three weeks and and you think, you know,

some bad is gonna happen. This guy's gonna try to get away, or he's gonna get away, or he's gonna hurt you guys. You guys end up killing him, and we don't need that. And so finally we made decisions, all right, because now he's now he's starting to give us some false leads. Also said he killed this person, he killed that person, and and we know he's a bad guy because but some of the things are true that you know, he gives us a little bit of

truth to and then then then he fa them. But I had in that same time period, right in fact, right befo, he confessed, I had a case where I had couple of guys killed in a in a motel room and there's a girl, young prostit in there a crack horror, they would describe her. And I had to go pick her up from her house and stuff, and she's gonna be material through a witness. And she said about we're talking to her about about the case, about cases, about you know, about her and the lifestyle that she

has and how dangerous it is. She goes, oh, yes, she's always scary, you know when you're after huling and she goes matter of fact, she goes a matter of fact, this is the first day I had these shoes on. She put both her legs out, and then she shows me these these shoes that she got, these real high

like high heel type shoes and stuff. She goes, there's this guy man, his name was Chili Williams, and I was in the motel with him and this other guy, and then all of a sudden, you know, when they have sex with me and he you know, strips me naked and throws me in the bathtub and he's like washing me and stuff. And then and then all of a sudden, you know, he beat up the other guy and tied him up, and I ran out the door and I got away, and I never wanted to be

around that guy. Still look for him. I still think he's gonna kill me. Well then I'm listening to thing Chili WILLI and wow, well it's the same guy. That's the guy I was interviewing before at the same time. So so talking to Chili, I bring hurt him up there. He goes, oh, man, that you know that b h And then he goes on there he almost explain the same thing, tells us the same about about the same story, and then how he wanted to how he wanted to

kill her. And then he kept telling me. See, and whenever we would talk to Chili and he'd almost get like in a trance like state. You probably know more about why these guys did. But he all of a sudden his voice would deep and he'd be talking and uh, and I mean, we have his hands, you know, in a leather belt that I deal with what cuts him. And I can see where he's manipulating. He's talking to us,

and he's there, he's manipulating his hands. I get there around somebody's thillt and uh, he says, and I yeah, I'd tell him, uh, you know, she'd be begging for her life. And I said, now you go tell that to God right now, because nothing happened here, You're going to be dying, bitch. And the smokes and it just just scared it. This girl was. She was scared that And and Chili kept telling me, uh, he wanted to He kept he'd see her around town oncet while and all he wanted to do was get her Alane to

kill her. And that girl, I mean, by the grace of God, she got away. He definitely killed her. He wanted to kill her so bad.

she's she's a strut. And he tells her that he's killed several people and the and that's just that's just the way it is, you know. And she tells us also that she was in she was in Portland when she knows I said his hands bandit bandited, and she asked and she asked him well you know what happened, what happened in your hand, and she said, uh, I killed someone, and she just disregarded and because you know, just says, you know, he talks crazy stuff like that

all the time. Well it wasn't all that crazy. That's that's that's actually what he did.

see him again. But then again, there's the plan and uh so they said, uh. At one point we think we think he's gonna, you know, plead out, you know, and give him whatever he's gonna get life, but thinking he's gonna plete up. But no, he he We finally go to finally formally a rash atant for for the murder and put him in jail. And the prosecutors and we have two of them, you know, we're really really

good prosecutors. That the head, the head of the MP unit, Jeff Baard, you know, very sharp k he's gonna be proscuting the case and should the bail bail set really high for him? And uh and so then we get it. We go to we go to trial and his his defense attorney who's really a good guy, white know, the

guy who he's a good guy. Also we're kind of laughing between ourselves, myself and the sky the dagg and you know, thinking that what seemed that the defense is a little bit afraid of his client, and they were laughing, would you be afraid of him? Also because Chilly had a couple of outbursts in court and like he did before he was arrested for this in his other case where he's throwing stuff around, and uh so we had to put him if we call it hannibal lector chair.

Now he's miss misbehaving in front of the judge and Marge pact arch pec Man, I think, who is a judge. She's now a federal judge and or I think she's retired right now. But they had to put him in a Hannibal elected chair because he was, you know, throwing stuff, and so what is You're in a chair and you're strapped in there, and they bring in from the jury and sometimes he's good. Sometimes he won't change his clothes,

and the civilian closed. It's something you don't want to bring the guy in there, you know, in his jail outfit. And but now he just had all these outbursts all the time, and it was very it was very uh

sometimes it was very comical watching him perform. And then again I look over at the jury while he's uh when he get when he started talking, and or the Medical Examiner's office doctors they're they're talking about the positions of the body and the strangulations, and I'm looking at all the jurors and you can see even some of the men will even some men theyd be. You know, their the legs across, their arms across, and their hands

are up across their throats. You know, because once again uh Duane or Chili was very chilling and very very chilling. So when he when he finally find the witness stand and talked, he's you know, he said, oh yeah, detector Sazynski size company outside. You know, he made he made that stuff up me there because I killed I killed Olivia Smith. I admit I killed her. It's because the DNA came back because they were in his blood. But

the other two I do. I just you know, I was just talking bowl and he just you know, let me look at the reports and all that kind of stuff. You know. Of course it was all nonsense, and we just found guilty. And I think he was sentenced to two hundred and two hundred warm months something like that Bridge case something. So obviously it's not the beginning out. And then so then I see I see him in the you know, they got him in the hannibal lectriture

and wheeling him out. The guards, you know, and he always have a you know a circle of guards around him. Hey, Mike, you Mike, you know, why don't you give me a call mac Mom, give me come and see me give you one of those cappuccinos. Man, I'm sorry I said those things about you in there. Okay, Chilie, maybe I will so I'm gonna jump you know you probably some of the questions for him. But one the day I was retiring here in Dinguis in two thoy seventeen, I

had to go to one of the prisons. Will talk to somebody else on my last day, And I said, long as I'm here, not thinking I'm going to give the lame hair this this a phone call and see if see if I could talk to him, and so on a phone call, I said, well, I'm there. I told the guards said, let me see if dune Hairs come out and see me. So and this is in the prison there and so they it wasn't a lot of wall I forget which prison it was. They bring him down and he comes walking in there it his

big old glasses on. He's about fifty pounds heavier. He goes Azinski. So you're still here, huh, I said, yeah, Jilie, how you doing? You know I'm doing Okay, where's your buddy's dagger? At the furnish tiger. I said, he's busy, but he sends his love. He goes, yeah, I bet he does. And he's kind of looking me up and down. I was, you know, dressed, you know, in a in a suit, you know, and always you know, almost to the dress and and he goes, yeah, you're still dress

some pretty good. I said. He goes, I always like that about you. You always dress good. He goes, That's why I used to dress all the time. I always had a suit on and stuff, which is what I do. Was overwhelming because he always had like no jeans on, fatigues on. Because he he told me, you know that jail wouldn't be all that bad for him, because he got he got tired of trying to find places to crash, to sleep and to get three square meals a day.

And you know, basically, you know, he'd married a couple of women and over that four fools have ever worked out. And but he said, yeah, he'll be all right. I'll be in jail. I'll be in jail. I get three squares a day. He washed them out, getting myself on them homosexuals and watched my jeans and corol my hair. I want to smoke a joint whenever I want to, and I won't have have you hound in me. Don't look at what a life to be looking forward to?

about the female judge, Marsha Peckman. So he really was infuriated because you knew that he had just no use for women periods. So with having them a judge and a prosecutor involved in his case, he got more than testy because the thing is he had already admitted to things and there was almost a slam dunk in terms of evidence against him, and yet he still gave the court a performance and a challenge, didn't he.

lifting weights and all that kind of stuff. You get. The people get fat in there. They get your You get three meals a day, not very good, feel good food. You get your phone. You still get a phone call. But you were just bored. It's noisy, it's you know, transient. Now you go to prison. Now all of a sudden,

now you might be able to get smokes. You get your own coffee, You get a job, You wear different clothes, you can watch TV and as if things go on and de friends which prison and you end up going to Sometimes you get softer clothes. Sometimes you get your own room, you go to school. You know, they have ways of getting you know, ways of getting drugs and having their sex and stuff. But it's it's it's it's you call it normal. It's more normal life than anything else,

is that? But Connie jail is hard, but he can't he liked it in Conny Jail. They had to keep him in seclusion because he was a bad boy and he'd always ended up getting in the fight. You're threatening people and stuff so chilly. He didn't know, he didn't know really what he wanted. But he's definitely you're right about that though. He definitely was a nice play by having a female judge, which is just by the luck of the draw that we got Marsha Peck and someone

who was very good. Once again, I said what I went on the spirit clue and and Barb slumming. And Barb happened to be the prosecutor when he was in there for a robbery beef now initially, and he was throwing stuff around and and he could be and they once got he could be very scary sometimes. And one time, you know, and all the time we had to get me and him are doing his model model thing. I don't know how they transpired, but and he said, you no, you know, I ain't like them boys used to deal

up here, ain't no bunks. And I go I'm not probably like one of the detectives that you used to He goes, yeah, that's right, you know, I can tell you tough, and he goes, uh uh, because they came down to a dog is, well, maybe one of us wouldn't come out of here alive, and they said it's probably probably what it would be, actually, and just kind of smile and he kind of smiles at me and stuff and uh, and he's right. I always thought it

something happened. If something happened, and it's going to be me and him, it's going to be boom boom boom, boom boom. I'm not going to put his hands on me. And it's kind of crazy. It's interesting relationship you.

that he used for his victims. You were instrumental in putting this person away, and yet he seemed to have this sort of well you just did your job and I just did what I did sort of attitude, didn't he?

every single day. And there was a time when I was I forgot what what holiday was later there Memorial Day and I come, I checked my I would check my phone messages from from my home and there's a message on there and it's from King kind of jail and it's from Chili and and he's calling Mikey Mike and message I remember today and if I'm sitting in

the same chair, what Mikey, Mike, this is Chili. Uh, he asked, the holiday, You're probably not You're probably not coming to get me today, and well, I'll probably see it Tuesday then, okay, man, Now have a nice holiday. And so that I played a recording in for my wife and I said, now, when was the last time you had a serial killer tell you to have a nice holiday? Huh? Yeah, Oh, how do you talk to

that guy? How you gonna listen to him? And he said, that's that's that's just you know, being friends with Chili. And so that was that was, you know, that was that was kind of it, you know, with with Chili. And now my last visit with him, and people say, do you want to be talking to men? No, not not really. I don't want to see him. And he's still he's still flourishing. He's in uh, he's in one of our prisons here in the in the state. But Chili now is he's in the probably late fifties now.

He had hepatitis. He told me he said he had he had hepatized right from the needles that he was using. If he would he would use some needles and some injecting himself at heroin. So he said, yeah, and he had that, and he had he had haptized, and he was diabetic, he had some other some other health issues. But it was I think back on, I go, well, that was that was the first serial murder that we ever did in Seattle. You know, we had ted Bundy and was but we never charged them in Seattle. So

that was the first serial murder charge in Seattle. And that was nineteen ninety eight. And I just buy the luck of the draw. I was just the guy, one of the guys who was you know, on that case.

And then I moved into a cold case unit in two thousand and four, and once again never even dream thought I'd work in cereal murder cases or had the desire with cereal murger case because are you know, that's a lot of work, And I ended up just because of DNA and uh, the job that I was in working, I worked like eleven serial murder cases, but I convicted seven serial murders. Time at the time I think was like, well,

one you know detectives, I did the most salums. Somebody brought us up to me, another detective, another reporter that I did the most serial murders in the United States. It was just I was just in the right place the right time, and that I was a great detective, you know, I you know, put the blood was in there and stuff, and I came it came back and then matched this guy and he used in prison. I when I would talk to the guy, and I did

get better interviewing and interviewing these guys. But I did notice all the same thing about these guys who was all tidies women up or strangle them a certain way, or stabbed them a certain way, or raped them and had nothing. It had nothing to do with sex. Now a lot of these guys are on the motion like they're you know, penetrating them. They're not even penetrating them.

And what the motion they're getting out of is is throttling their neck, was stabbing them thirty or forty times, or stabbing them twenty times in the fun twenty times in the back, redressing them or posing them afterwards nothing to do with sex. And the same thing, like the Chili said at one time, he was mad at me when I want to talk about it. You guys, you guys said I raped them and I didn't break them and them and they gave it to me and they said,

you know what I said. I said, yeah, you're right. They did. And everyone of them that was their remodel. They would do whatever they wanted for sex and h but once again it would not he would chill. He was right. They had nothing to do with texts. Man. So it's kind of crazy that, you know, we're we're talking about now. And he said, you've talked about this what love already talked to him. You probably know just as well as I do that, Uh, it isn't about

the sex with these guys, you know. Yeah, Kenyway says he ain't about the sex. Thought it's all about to kill him.

I go, not, really, you know, I've read some of the for two books, you know, you know, three books a week, and none of them bought true crime because that's why, you know, that's what I do. And so but it's, uh, it really is thank thankfully that your DNA came around and we're able to convict so many people across the country.

I'm still I'm happy that. Uh what I said, I never wish anybody did it well sincere murders cases that I did, I think only three of the guys that are alive now because they're they're you know, put in prisoner, they're they're set and stuff, you know, another another wife to them, and then they're dying off. And no matter how cold, I don't want anybody, none of them. Chilie, I'm happy he's dead. But yeah, I'm I'm still kind

of surprised. I'm sitting here looking at Chili. Lily is a booking photo and and you know he's six six foot one. Seez it's kind of tired to believe that that was that was a big part of my life. And like I said, I've done a couple of shows and I wrote my books. Yet jungle killer and Bill. Out of all the serial murderers that I've ever worked, he is he is by far the spookius by.

fooled people all along in his career. Yes, I'm thankfully thank you.

connising that they have a bit of intelligence. You know how to Connie people, and with Chili, you don't what's the whop for them? You have the drugs for the women, you know, and you have to give the gab and keep you know, because he would tell me goes, you know, how do you think I'd get how do you think I'd get these uh women to come up in these into the jungle. You know, I just have to you know, I'd have some I'd have tell them about some cocaine stuff and uh that is how you you know, you

got to get him up here. But you got to, you know, you guys remember you know Merrick Floyd asked, what was your plan, Chili? What's your plan with these h murder? Man murder? Murder? Murder? All these smokes? I know, So thank you so much, thank you very much for having me. And I'm gonna listen to your show and I hope I can be on again some more of my on my next cases.