SEATTLE'S FORGOTTEN SERIAL KILLER-Cloyd Steiger

lives and families while walking unseen among the masses. Decades later, his crimes have all but been have all but been forgotten. Joint author and homicide investigator Cloyd Steiger as he uncovers the story of the murderer who slipped through the cracks of history. The book they were featuring this evening as Seattle's Forgotten serial Killer. Gary jen Grant was my special guest. Retired homicide detective and author Cloyd Steiger. Welcome to the program,

and thank you very much for this interview. Cloyd Steiger, Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you very much, audience. A little bit about your background. I just mentioned that you were a homicide detective. Tell us a little bit about your background and the job that after you retired from Homicide division. What job you worked at and had some relation to this case. Yeah.

set up back in the days. It was actually originated in Bundy days and then in the Green River days because of agencies not having information across yours lions and Bob Keppel, who is well known in the murder industry, set this thing up right and he was the chief criminal investigator at that time, and that's the position I have now as the chief criminal investigator. So I run that unit and I supervised the investigators and analysts across the state to we track every murder that happens in

the state and also in Oregon in Montana. But we also like consult with agencies, especially small agencies that just don't have there any murders that don't know what to do. We offer them expertise and also resources if they need it. And so that's what I do. But it's you know, it's a great job as a retirement job, because it's eight o'clock in the morning before and the afternoon every day. I know a time I'm going home every day, and they never called me at one thirty in the morning.

So that's the difference in this my old.

a book. And so when I was getting close to retiring, I thought, I just started toying around with the idea and then I just started writing stuff down and before you knew it, you know, I had a book. So and I published it through Amazon and it actually took off really well. I mean I got a lot of sales, a lot of a lot of interviews in the news, a lot of media coverage, a lot of podcasts and so and then I did advertise thing through Amazon. But

it's been it's sold pretty well. It's consistently so it has been out in a couple of weeks, I mean a couple of years. And so one day I get an email from some guy that has read the book and he said, hey, what do you know about Gary Grant? He was a guy killing kids and people in Renting in the late sixties early seventies. And you know, I'm kind of a student of serial killers, especially ones from this region, and there are many of them, but I had never heard of Gary Grant, so I was kind

of surprised by that. My main interest was for this job that I have now because to put that case in the database. So I had to one of my analysts call the Renton Police Department and they said, well, we don't really have it. We have his name here, but not much. And then they called the King County Sheriff, who also handled some of the cases. They didn't have much.

So I called the King County Prosecutors Office and to the area of the homicide or the prescu's office he handles all the murders and the paralegal there and I said, hey, do you have a case on this guy or a court file? And she said, let me check. I'll get back to in a few days later. Ship call said, yeah,

we have it. Can I borrow it? She said sure, So I went down and got it and it was thousands of pages, and I just scanned the entire case file again to put it in our database of all these murders, because we want to have all serial murders, right, we have every murder from about nineteen eighty three forward going backward, we have select murders that we know about, any unsolved involving especially female victims or in our database that we know about it, and any serial killings we

hear about. But so that's what happened. And then so I had it all and I was reading through it and literally I'm driving down the road in my phone rings and it's people from History Press and they said, that's a public company. They said, hey, we saw you wrote that book. That homicide book's doing pretty well. You saw quite a few of copies and said, yeah, I have. And they go, we're looking for true crime, semi historic, like twenty or thirty years minimum old. That would be interesting.

Do you have any cases to like that you know of? And I'm thinking, are you kidding me? I just read this case, so yeah, I said, oh yeah, I have something in mind. So yeah, they said, they emailed me some slips and filet of proposal. The only thing they were nervous about was that little kids were involved in which is always a it's hard to write about that. So that was their only hitch. But finally they said, no, write the book. So I did.

still around? And he hooked me up with a city council and that was a retired Renton policeman that was on the department back then, and then he I went to his house and met him, and he called this guy, called this guy and gave me all these guys that were still alive that worked on the case. So I

started talking to them and getting their information. The judge in the case, his son was a prosecutor that I knew, and I, you know, I presumed his dad was gone, but I said, hey, your dad worked on this case. And then he goes, you want to talk to you about it? He's still around. I said, you're kidding, So he's in his nineties. I got a hold of him. Yeah, the elected prosecutor at the time. I got a hold

of him and he was real cooperative. And then one of the other prosecutors in the case was was somebody I knew because he was still when I was working, and I talked to him, and then as a matter of fact, you know that was probably could find. And then just today I got an email from one of the defense attorneys that I didn't know was still alive. I said, man, I wish i'd got this email from you before I wrote the book. Another good resource, and

I'm going to talk to him later. But so that's you know that I just was snipping around where I could get it, talking to people, and because of the events that went on in this case, there are a lot of tristan turns that people remembered it really well, you know. And then a couple of them, well, one of the proscooters was no longer alive. He just died

a year before. But his son, who was himself a former prosecutor is now a private attorney, knew all about this case because his dad talked to him all the time about it because it really bothered him because these two six year old boys that were some of the victims. This guy was talking to the attorney now was six when it happened, and his dad was prosecuting the case, and he said it really affected him. And when he himself became a prosecutor, they talked about this case a lot,

and then he was a great resource. So you know, like I said, I just it was just kind of be in. You got to being protective right down. Your witness doesn't talk to him. That's what I did.

by the Charles Manson cult as you write. And this was a few years before Ted Bundy stocked women in the local area, and the term serial killer, as we said in the introduction, was not yet in the American lexicon. Take us to Renton, Washington, you say, is one hundred thousand people in twenty and nineteen, but in nineteen sixty nine it was a small place. Tell us where Renton

is situated. And then tell us about December sixteenth, nineteen sixty nine, and a guy named Edward Stewart is doing some fishing right so well.

buried there in the cemetery. He's the most famous for it.

So that's that's that's the history of it's grown. It's it's like anything else. That was a small town with a small town seal down, but now it's the bosom of suburbia, you know, with a you know, shopping mall and call that stuff into a lot of people. And well, the police department at that time it was only about forty people the whole police department, and they had five detectives,

and so, yeah, it was a very small operation. They had very few murders in rent and they'd go three, four or five years without a single murder, and when it did happen, it was usually a bar fight that got out of control, or you know what we used to call the smoking gun murders. You know, nobody it's not a who done it. Not everybody knew who did it. Yeah,

and that's what they're their only experience of murders. So anyway, on that December day in nineteen sixty nine, this guy is walking down the Stewart walking down to the river because he wants to go fishing that afternoon. He's checking their conditions and there's a muddy trail that at that time went along the west side of the river bank, and he was taking that and he went around the corner. He saw, of course, what they always think a mannequin

laying on the ground. As he got closer, he realized it wasn't a manneicut at all. It was a woman and she was dead and nude. So he was kind of shocked and turned around and ran back, and he ran into a buddy of his on the way back, and he told him what we saw him. They came back and the guy looked at it to make sure, and then they went and called the police. And that's how this this whole case started. So the police came. Obviously they didn't they had no idea who this woman was.

They had no idea what was going on. But there was some There were some papers backpack laying nearby. They had had some papers in it, like school papers and a name, and so they looked at the papers and figured out the name was Carol Erickson on the papers.

Now they didn't know if that was really this person there were She's obviously been at that Yeah, she had been The shoes on her back at that point, her hands were over her head, she had a sweater on that was like mostly pulled up, exposing her breast, and she was nude from the way. The rest of her

body was nude on the way down. So when they met Lexander got there and they rolled the body, thought she had one single stab wound to the center of her back and that she had been also strangled her shoelaces, so that's what they had. They went they finally identified her as Carol Ericson. I talking to friends and family, and it ended up that Carol was a student at

a local vocational school up the hill. She was nineteen years old, up the top of the hill from where she was there was a vocational school and she was in culinary arts there. And she lived in an apartment with a friend right down town, not too far from where she was found. And she was walking. She'd walked to the library the night before to study for some tests she had coming up in her class. And instead of taking the city streets to she walked this path.

She would walk this path down the river. And you know, people told her when she went there it was light, it was okay, but people said, yeah, you shouldn't walk down there dark. But she just blew him off, you know, oh, no, it's fine. She So she was apparently on her way back because she'd been to the library. She was on

her way back when she was attacked from behind. And of course, like everything else, you get whenever there's a who's donnet murder, especially if you've never done those heads, you're spinning your wheels, You're going down all kinds of these rabbit holes that have nothing at all to do with your case. And that's what happened in this case, they spent weeks going down rabbit holes, nothing solid ever happened, and it kind of just was petering out.

and he did the autopsy in that. So, I mean he was a long time medical examinter. But he determined that Carol had been. The fatal was a stabdoor back that had punctured her heart and killed her almost instantly. She has also strangled either paramortem like at the moment of death or post mortem with her shoelaces, and she had been sexually assaulted. That's what he found.

or somebody. You know, they went, they went to the library and talked to everybody, put things in the paper. Were you at the library on Monday night? Did you see this girl there? And you know, they got a couple of leads about creepy guys are hanging out by the front. But you know, like most of those leads, they just kind of peter out. They could never figure

anything out. So that like this case kind of just slowly, slowly faded in activity because they didn't have much wanter go on, and it just kind of went cold in the first two months.

o'clock in the afternoon, walked out of her house. A neighbor outside saw her walk past him and into it. There's a big wooded area, huge acres and acres of woods right by their house, and she went down the trail like she did a lot when she walked. She just didn't come home. And so of course her parents started worrying about her. And then they got in the car, were driving around all and our friends, have you seen have you seen Joanne? Has anybody seen Joanne? You know,

and nobody saw her, and they're freaking out. They finally, you know, late, like at eight o'clock in the evening, they called the King County Sheriff's office to tandled that area, and of course the dispatcher said, well, you know, let's just wait see if she comes back. Now she kind of blew it off a little bit, which was in retrospect, was kind of a mistake, but you know, she'd probably be back. She's a she's a seventeen year old girl, and and maybe she ran away, and so they didn't go.

So the next morning, you know this, the parents of course, are panicky all that long because she's not a runaway. This is not anything she would do. And so the next morning they go. She coincidentally also went to the same vocational school as Carol Erickson. They didn't know evidence they knew each other, they didn't take the same classes. But so she went to that school to talk to her friends to see if if she showed up at school,

does they really know where she is. Finally, in the afternoon they called the police again and a shriff step he was pretty sharp, came out. He looked at this, he goes, oh, I don't like this at all, and so he called this supervisor and says, yeah, this is not a runaway. We need to get a search one right now. So they started a high level search. They brought in such a rescue people and everything. They and

they started searching the area with dogs. So about midnight that night, one of the dog handlers calls up says, come down here. So they go down there and on this trail, about thirty feet away in the brush is the new body of Johann Zulaf. She'd been strangled to death excuse me, apparently hit in the head with a

hard object. Also, but she also is nude, and it was kind of the same story as as Carol, although again this is a different This is the Sheriff's not the city police, and they didn't it's no more experience because they have a lot of area. But to their credit, early on, one of the detectives at the Sheriff's off says, you know, Wrentton had that case a few months ago. We should talk to them and compare notes. And so they did, but you know, they didn't have anything to

go on. Yeah, it's very similar, but who knows. And so they started again another murdered investigation that went down a bunch of rabbit holes and and they went all over the place and nothing they were doing had anything to do with the case, because you don't know the time. But they got you know, everybody in the world is this guy did it and that guy did it. And you go chasing all these leads and none of them panned out, and that one same thing. They started just petering out.

that ended up getting helping him solve the case. But that ends up none of those leads they got had anything to do with this case. They didn't know at the time, of course, but yeah, so there was a little bit more. They had more resources at their disposal because they were much larger department. You know, that was I don't know, a big sheriff's offices, but the much larger department that's the Sheriff's office the handle Seattle, you know, around the Seattle area, King County, So you know, it's

a bigger department. But the same thing though. They worked on it for months and tracked things down, but didn't come up with anything.

And you know, after they each one of them ran some errands with his mom in the morning, and then they went out to play and they were playing outside, and you know, other neighborhood kids were outside, and one of the mothers said that they saw the boys in the back in their backyard, and they came in, asked for cookies, and brought out his friends cookies and they were playing and everything. And about a while later she had to go somewhere, so she looked. She sees her

younger son. It's the neighborhood kids. But she hadn't see her oldest son. As you what, bread is Brad out there? And she goes, well, he and Scott are playing in the woods because there's again a huge wooded area right next to where they and so okay, she didn't think aning of it. They'd play in the woods all the time, and this is you know, nothing ever happened up there. This wasn't a bad neighborhood. She didn't think anything of it at all. So they went about their business. But

later on, you know, kids didn't come back. Kids didn't come back, and then so they were getting obviously very concerned, and by starting to get dark, now they're going to call the police because you know, these kids, these six year old kids are gone and it's after dark, and of course you had two six year old kids like that. Again, it was the King County Sheriff's office that initially responded,

and they they didn't hesitate for a minute. You know, they started doing this search, but they were you know, it was the wooded area where these kids went into. I don't know any because it was it was probably hundreds of acres, It was a big forested area, and so you know, it took a lot and they searched and search, and then the plea went out that these kids are missing. You know, have you seen these kids? And the river, the Cedar River, the same one that

Carol eric. So it was found murdered by a downriver At that point, it kind of winds through there, and everybody was fearful the kids had fallen in the river and then washed away, so and that's what everybody feared. But it went off for two or three days. They didn't find these kids, and then one day, finally on the third day, one of the volunteers, the searcher, is walking through a wooded area and he just sees something

out of the corner's eye. He looks over me. He sees a tough to blonde hair and there's a pile of leaves and debrised and he walks and looks and he sees the other kid's hair and he goes, oh, my gosh. He runs and gets the police and they find that's it. They're there and then and then but when they get there and they find where they are now they're actually in the city of Rent and so it's back to the Rent and police department. What's the

county helping them? But it's like these kids have been murdered, and they found they were both nw. They were laid side by side. One of them had wood had been stabbed to death and the other had like a like a blind cord around his neck and tied and so and they were again both dude, and they again had no idea who did this. It was That's just there was. It was a big case. It was first of all, it was the Renton Police. City of Renton had never had a double murder in their history at that point,

never and not double murder of children. It was the worst murder and Renton history to that point.

psychological undoing. The person doesn't want the bought the victim to look at them and I didn't do this, you know, I'm covering you up. You don't really exist, you know, you can't I can't see you, so you don't really exist. And that's something that tells you in these type of things, the psychological or the you know, the person does something and then is like freaked out that they did it.

That's kind of what it shows. You know, whenever you see somebody's face covered or you know, there's things you look for and i'm urder scene if there's if you have a scene where there's attacks to the face like stablings to the face or shooting in the face, that's a personal attack. That means the person either personally knew this person or was transposing someone they did know for this person, you know, if they're crazy. So that's that's

what you look for. And you also look for faces covered head turned intentionally of a victim away from where the suspect would have been, and that's that tells you that you know, it's it's an undoing or psychological undoing by the killer.

of talking nonsensically. So she's like, didn't know what's going on. She goes gets the charge nurse and she comes out and he starts telling her that he has these problems. He needs to go to the hospital every now and then. So she takes him back into the er and he says and gets the doctor, the er doctor. And one of the things this guy says is I haven't urged to her children. I just feel like I could hurt children.

And then I think that's odd, you know. But they give him authorizen shot and put him in the room there and everything, and don't don't think anything of it, really, I mean, he's just a cite patient and he's obviously got issues. So that's what happens at that point. A couple days later, now that that same doctor, it ends up that guy walked into the hospital the same day

the boys went missing. Okay, so that same doctor was at home a couple of days later, and he has a young daughter and his wife picking a daughter up for school. She goes, you know, the super boys are still missing, and wonder what happened to him? And then he you know, he heard about it, but he hadn't paid much attention. He starts looking like, what what's going on?

And the kids, oh yeah, and he goes and he said, starts thinking about this patient that on Tuesday, the day this the kids went missing, this patent came into his hospital fan he had the surge of her children and he kind of went, oh my god, I wonder if he had something to do with this. But they didn't know if he could tell anybody because the doctor patient privileged.

So he called the hospital and got ahold of the hospital lawyers, and they discussed it and they found an accession a battered child exception to the doctor patient privilege, and so they say, you can call the police. So he called the police and when the detectives got the message that this doctor was calling, they were standing over the bodies of Scott Andrews and Bradley Lyons. Yeah so yeah,

I mean it's like, oh my god. So they rush over two detectives, one King County detective of one Renting detective, go to the hospital and they start talking to this doctor find out what's going on. Then they go in and they talk to this guy John Chance and you know, and they start asking him some questions and he's kind of, you know, a little out of it, and they asked him if he hurt the kids. He goes, well, I can't imagine that I did. I don't remember that type

of thing. So they decide they're going to take him downtown to Seattle, to Harbor View, which is the big trauma center, but it's also got a big psych ward and so we're going to take the harbor View. So they take him to harbor View and we're going to come back tomorrow and talking. Okay, So they drop muffet Harborview, and there's some issues about whether Harbor VIW will keep him,

but they end up keeping him for a while. He goes to he goes they go back down there to the day and they start questioning him and he's certainly he wants to tell him all about this murder. And he tells them that he took these kids and he did this, and he starts describing all the detail and he covered them up, and they're like, oh my gosh.

So they take him out and they drive him down to the scene where the boys show us where the boys are found, and he starts trumpets for the brush and he can't find anything, and he's doing all this stuff, but he knows all this stuff, so that this is our guy, right, So they they have a prosecutor. They just they erect him for the murder because he's told them all about it and confess to them. Well, ends up later, I'll tell you how he knew all this stuff.

But they put him in jail and a couple of days later he's actually charged with the murder of the two boys. And the mistake the police made and this was a rookie mistake by them, but by not knowing about murders that much, not by the detectives but by the administration is when they release things. So they told the media everything that happened. So if you go back to the news papers from that day, you can see

the entire thing described. So there's no doubt that this guy gone chance, got a newspaper and read the account, and they just regurgitated what he read in the paper to the detectives. I mean he may have really, because then he went back and forth, Yeah I did it, No, I didn't do it. So I mean he was he was absolutely you know, a real sanity issues. I mean,

he was like a but he wasn't stupid. I mean, he had like an advanced degree from Columbia University and had been a teacher, but he just had all these metal issues that he caused all these problems. So he gets charged and so then he's in jail for the murder. The big news we got the guy that killed the kids. Well that's when they decided to go search for that knife. I mean he's there already in the protest, but that's the knife is found. After that, they sent it to

the crime lab. They take the crime lab, the guy Kay Sweeney, who I actually know from when I worked. He was still there for a long time. He was examining the knife and it's got a it's got like black electroc tape all over the hilt the unwindest okay, trying to see if they can get fingerprints out of it. When he gets to the bottom, he sees there's a name etch the end of the knife, and he calls up, Hey, there's a name etches this knife. He goes, you're kidding me.

So they get the information, they figure out who this guy is. Well, I find out this guy is a young man who's in the Marine Corps. He's in basic training down in San Diego, and he was in basic training when this murder happened. But he's his parents that he's coming home like in two days. His BASIC's over with now, I'll bring him in for an interview. So they do, and they bring him in for an interview and he start talking about this knife. He goes, yeah,

I remember that knife. And he starts telling him why he bought it and everything, and yeah, I asked my name in that. And he goes, where's what happened to the knife? He goes, well, I sold it to my friend so and so, you know, And they go where's he at and he goes, well, he's somewhere and he goes but I know he doesn't have it anymore because he gave it to this other kid. And they go, how do you know that? He told me he gave

it to this other kid. And who's this kid. It's a fourteen year old boy that he gave the knife. So they go to this kid's school, Brett pull him out of class, start interviewing him and he says, yeah, I had that knife, and he goes, yeah, I used it, and he goes, I was. He lived in a trailer park in Lenton, right along Lake Washington. It's kind of rock because it was like a single wide trailer park back then, but a million dollar condos at that site right now. But he he said, we I was. I

was out and my buddy. I was with my buddy in his truck and I got out and I forgot the knife in his truck. And they go, well, who's your buddy. He goes, Gary Grant, He lives in the He lives in the same trailer court as me. So they start looking into Gary Grant and he goes, yeah, but I asked Gary to give me the knife back, but he said his dad found it in the truck and put it in his bedroom. And Gary says, I can't go in his bedroom and get it. So they

started waking into this Grant guy. They find out that his dad, Glenn Grant, was at one time a Pearce County sheriff, which is a county down by Tacoma. But then now he's working as a private security guard, like in a neighborhood patrol thing. And they start thinking, you know, well, first of all, they were suspicious of John Chance. They weren't convincing John Chance really did it. These detectives they said, you know, he would just say anything you wanted them

to say. So that's why they kept seeing it. To their credit, they didn't stop because they thought they had a guy. They kept investigating. And so they they're thinking that the dad, because he's a Residents of security guard, he has a car. He said, this kid's probably would get would get in the car with him, thinking he's

a policeman. So let's go talk to him. So they go to the trailer they live in and they're talking to the dad and the mom is there and Gerry isn't there, and they start talking and asking about the knife, and Glenn Gran says, I don't think about a knife. He said he didn't find a knife in your truck. He goes, no, I didn't find a knife on my truck. I don't know anything about it a knife. So as they're topping, Gary pulls up the frug. No, here's Gary.

So one of the detectives, Jim Paln, he says, got the sergeant, let me go ahead and talk to him. So he goes out there and he goes, hey, hey, Gary, are you doing and renting police? And he says, yeah, we're we're just talking your dad in there. Won't you stay out here with me? Won't you have a seat in my car? So Garry says okay, and he goes to get in the car, and when Jim sees him get in the car, the bottom of his shoe is exposed and he is that's the same shoe print I

saw at the murder victims. I mean that matches the pattern. So he goes in and he gets Wally Hume, the other detector says, we got to get out of here, and he goes on, let's go, let's go, And long story short, then they get him in the car and they take Gary down to rent to the police forever, and you know they're they're talking to him and They say, Gary,

do you mind if we look at your shoes? And no, he gives them the shoes, and then Shaln goes out and goes to the guy that has the evidence to be that plaster cast, you know, And so they get the flaster cast and they look and the shoe is the exact same pattern. That doesn't mean, of course, that it's the same shoe, because thousands of those shoes are sold, right, But it is interesting there are no individual traits. Go ahead, you have a question.

was Dewey Gillespie. You know, by the time they get downtown, are going to come downtown. It's like four thirty in the afternoon, and they show up there and they go, he's gone. He's gone for the day. And so one of the other people there says, we can get hold of him, and they said, why don't you guys go on out and give him something to e because Gary

was acting really nervous. So they took him to a Jack in the box or something and they got him a hamburger and they chit chatted and talked about every in the world, nothing new with the murders, and they're finally a six point thirty or seven o'clock they're back in the Seattle Police headquarters building and the Gillespie They introduced him to Gillespie and Gilessie takes him in the office and he starts talking to him about the polygraph

and when you have a polygrop test, there's always what's called the pre interview, and where the operator asks a bunch of questions of the person they're going to examine, where they're not hooked up to the machine, and they're in the process of this free interview when Gary just starts crying and a minute later he opens the door and walks out their detectives and he says, Gary just contested me. He killed those two boys. They said, oh

my god, you know, so they know. They brought him out and they're talking to him again and he gives a complete confession everything. He describes what he did. He deny. He goes, Okay, I can't believe I did this. I like little boys. I like kids. He denies ever sexually attaching them, which you know is not true, but he denies it. Anyway, they go through this whole thing. By this time, it's like ten thirty at night, and then Gillespie comes out. He says, let me talk to him again.

So they put Gary back.

you know, they're like, oh my god. So they put him in a they started carrying what about eric'son, get that whole story. They call the county because the ulav Gates is the King County case, and they get one of the sergeants up on his way up there. You know. So they end up talking, and they did a good job of interrogating because you know, he Gary would hold back the information and they would not give him the information.

They made him say it, and he would say claim he didn't remember this or didn't remember that, but he did and he eventually you know, that's the key. You can't just say did you do this? And do this now they go go, yeah, did you do this? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. That's how false confession happens. You got to let him tell you the facts, right you don't you don't. You don't just sit there and let him Regurgerie tate to you what you're saying. So then they did a good

job because he tried to have them do that. I don't he wasn't trying as a tactic. He that was just his He didn't want to talk about it that much. But he but they got him to say the things they needed to say. And then so then they have this issue. They put him, they send him back, set him to rent, and put him in the rent and city jail overnight because they already got a guy charged with the murder, so they hold him as a material witness to murder at first, right, And so that's what

they do. They put him in jail, and that's when he gets a lawyer, and that's when all the other stuff happened.

they're being recorded unless you have a court order. And so he did this and it's bad enough as far as you know. The detectives talking to the people in the room. But Gary Grant was talking to his attorney in this room and their conversation was recorded, and is there a later Dn Chance had also been talking to his attorney in the room and his conversation they've been recorded, which is absolutely unbelievable because that jeopardizes the entire case,

the whole case, the guy, the whole case. He goes off and Serika could walk out the door because of that mistake. And so that was that was the first part of the mess. And you know when that came out. First of all, they had a guy in jail charged

who wasn't the killer. That was the first thing. And then second of all, they got at these recordings and so that you know, set the prosecutor's office and into uh damage control mode, and they were spending around and first thing they did is insulted the prosecutor's office completely from any of the recordings. They didn't want any of those recordings heard by anybody in their office, which was

the smart thing to do. And they actually brought in a special special prosecutor from the Attorney General's office to deal with the recording and they actually charged the Winton captain with unlawful wiretapping.

it was it was a it was a minefield. Like I said, then they had to deal with in court in the pre trial how to get around this recorded conversation. And that was a big you know, that was a big, big issue. And matter of fact, after the elected prosecutor, Chris Bailey just I just couldn't want when I talked to him deeporaneous now he said, I couldn't believe that a police commander would do that, would not know that

you can't do that. You know we have when I was yeat, we have interrogation weeps that would recorded right and there, and you tell the person you're being recorded. But if a lawyer comes in there, we switched the recording off while the lawyer's talking. Once a lawyer's out, we switch it back on. Because you cannot record a private conversation with cred, a defendant his attorney. It's absolutely that is a you know, terrible thing.

doubt about it. But they learned, you know, and it was it. They you know, they they the case was risk, the whole case was at risk. Unfortunately it didn't end up going away.

She would become very violent, and she and his father, Glen Grant would get these big fights and and he would the mother would throw things across the room, and his father basically would leave for weeks at a time, and he, you know, he talked about how they would be you know, he couldn't handle it, and he he went to he would Grant had gone into the military and he got kicked out in basic training, and he said he planned because there was a landing officer there.

It was cruel to a Medelva stuff. But they said he sent him home because he was a mama's boy and he couldn't handle it anyway. So basically they went through this full time. You know, they talked about Glenn's but the kids and why he would do this. You know what, what what did he do? Did? He didn't have any suicidal intent, he was he remembered what he said when the word he described when talk about the murders, he would say, when I closed my eyes, I can see the victims. I can see the boys, and I

can see it like I can't wear a camera. Matter of fact, that's what I wanted to name the book, when I closed my eyes, because that was such a I thought that was a pretty powerful thing. I can't I don't specifically remember doing it, but when I closed my eyes, I can see all these things happening. And he described that he did that with a lot, with more than one psychologist. So and then you know, he was you know, he said he liked kids. He can't

believe he would hurt the kids. But the doctor said, you know, he's obviously got issues, but they thought he was he was able to stand droughts. Three of the four doctors said he was he was eligible to stand trial and could assistant defense. One did not once thought he could not.

But anyway, hearing she was missing a watch, yeah, near ring, that's right, and so what you know, it's not uncommon for sir killers to take trophies, but but they But Gary was with a He hung out with this group of people and he was kind of an odd duck, but he ended up there was a guy who was kind of the popular guy in school that everybody liked, named Frank, and he hung out with Frank, and Frank that took him under his wing and helped him and he had they were at parties all the time, and

he had he had a girlfriend, and he kept telling his girlfriend all the things he did, and she goes, but you never have any money. You don't get paid for all this stuff. And one time they we at a party and he and he hands his girlfriend a watch and he says, see, I do get paid for what I do, and he gave her a watch ended up being Joanne Zulov's watch. So which again is not uncommon for killers to give trophies to other women or things like that, but he did that. And you know,

you can tie a couple of things like uh. When they talked to this guy, Frank, he said he had you know, I talked about his relationship with Kerry, who's no Gary. I just kind of felt sorry for him, and he was a friend and I hung out with him. And he says, one time, there's only one time we ever got in a fight. One time we got in an argument. I mean we got in this big, yelling argument,

you know, and I could tell he was heard. So I told him I was sorry, and we were and we made up over the you know, over that night. It was fine by the end of the night, but that was ended up being the night before he killed those Lio little boys, so that's a stressor in his life, you know. And another time he said he was he was he got in another a fight with his parents and left. Was just before he killed Johann Zulov. So if you look at least he says this stress So

now you're just this is all taking his word at that. Well, the other one was Frank was Frank's word, So that's probably true, but you know it's ironically. The day I got an email the day this book published, and it was an incredible email. The first day came out, a lady emailed me. She said, I was I always wondered if anybody knew what happened to Gary Grant, So I googled Gary's name and I saw you wrote a book

about it, and it's coming out. She says, I knew Gary when I was in school, since we would go. One time we all went up to Crystal Mountain, which is a skiing resort near here, because they had a Korean Korean exchange student. He had never seen snow, so they took her up there and Gary was up there with him, and she said, I sat next to Gary and I just got the creeps. I didn't really know him, but I got the creeps. I more knew the other people, and every time he talked to me, he was just weird.

And then I found out later that it was a serial killer, and it just it just freaks me out. And it was just ironic that she just happens to the day before this book is being published and run this name because all these years she never knew. But that's what everybody said. He was an odd duck, you know, he was like an odd man out. You know, he kind of kept to himself. If he told the joke, he would look at Frank, and if Frank laughed, he

would laugh. But if Frank didn't, he wouldn't laugh. So he was just kind of a kind of a little wounded puppy dog. Although you know, if you look at this picture, he's a strapping, good looking young man. You know, he had like he could have been a movie star looks. You know, he doesn't anymore. I'll tell you that I saw his picture in prison. But he did. Man, he was he had a lot of a lot of hope. One for him a different you know, obviously psychological issues.

their only thing is to save his lives. And so they went through the thing and tried to paint him as as sympathetic to the jury as they possibly could, you know, because he'd done these terrible you know, kill these little boys and then the two girls that were just young teenagers and you know, it's horrendous crime. But then you got to get this and they put him on the stand himself. Apparently he just uh want to press here, told me he got up there and he

just kind of was in a trance. As a matter of fact, his testimony was so strange that the state did not even cross him. They didn't steel they needed to because they had they'd given it all up. And the other thing that was odd about the trial was the defense, who fought so hard to have this case dismissed because of the recording with his previous attorney, actually played that recording in the trial in front of the jury.

So I'm not sure what they were thinking with that, I don't know, but in the end, you know, they did. He was found quickly, found guilty. Then he was he did not perceive the death that lead. So then the other and only other issue becomes how much time he served, because under the sensing laws that back then, he could have gotten like eight or nine years and then released because you know, if they gave him life, because they could run him consecutively. But again, yeah, there's a way.

I talked to the judge in this case, there was no way they were going to do that. So he ended up getting you know, four life sentences, and you know, the minimum we could do was like one hundred years or something, and and so yeah, it all worked on the end, but they tried real hard. I mean, it couldn't easily. You know, if if it's been a little bit different system, a little judge, you're gonna let this

guy walk. And you know, you know one thing about this guy is he's gonna kill again if he gets out. There's no question about it. Yeah.

I think she may have it. I mean, there's no question, there is no question this guy had a terrible childhood, right, But a lot of people have childhood and don't go on killing people in their lives. But yeah, and he had a lot of issues. And actually I just found out he's been transferred to Monroe, which is over on the Walla. Walla is the way on the other side of the mountains, and Monroe is closer to this. He

got transferred their recently. But that's where he is right now, because the movie is around after a while a bit, he's fifty years and you know, fifty years since he did the murder, and he's fifty one now almost.

I mean, I'm not just saying there's not some some intellectual value in it, but you have to take everything with the grain of salt.