ROOTED IN DECEPTION-Laura Churchill Duke

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You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about him Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.

Good evening from the award winning author of True Crow Sorrow comes another historical true crime story about secret identities, deception, and murder. At the turn of the century, an ex convict from Ireland arrives in the backcountry of rural Nova, Scotia, whereupon he is accused murdering a man and bearing him in the victim's own cellar under a pile of potatoes.

Sure, that's great, So.

I, as you mentioned, I live in rural Nova Scotia in Canada here and I was taking part one evening in something called Valley Ghost Walks. So these are historical walks that we have throughout our region where people go around and basically characters from the past are brought back to life to share their stories. And that's all done through something called Valley Ghost Walks. And I was participating in one of these walks in the evening and I

You say that when you started your research, and we'll talk about how you do start that research, you knew two things. What were the two things that you knew only about this case?

Yeah, so we knew that Freeman Harvey had been murdered, and we knew that the convicted murderer was a man that they were calling George Stanley Kavanaugh.

What we knew was that he was really a con man and a trickster.

So basically what we knew, we weren't sure if we really knew it, but based on newspaper reports and some of the trial transcripts at the time, the two facts that I did know is that he came from a small.

Town in Ireland.

And I also knew approximately when he was born and approximately some of the names that this con man had used.

And that was all I had to go on.

Now, you talk about the person that was responsible for helping you out and the organization that was also instrumental in helping you. Tell us about that instrumental health.

Yeah, So to me, almost this kind of backstory is what is most exciting about putting this whole novel together, is that, as I said, I knew that convicted murderer. He was from a small town called Ross Craig in Ireland and so I actually just on a whim, I sent an email to the historical society there.

And I said, I have this guy. His name could be this, this or this, and I believe he's from your town. What can you help me with?

And then that started a relationship with Pamela a Kin of the Ross Cray Heritage Society there in Ireland, and she and another fellow historian they started rooting through records and it was just so exciting because they actually found this man in all their town records. So I have his first certificate, I have his school records, I have his church records, I have his parents' marriage certificates. He even went and showed me the house where he actually lived in Ross Cray as well, so we do know

Very interesting. You write, Liverpool, England, December fourth, nineteen oh five. John Cavanaugh is dead, so you say the new John is at this Albert Docks in Liverpool. Tell us what's happening and who he is assuming an identity of.

Yeah, so that's you've just read there. Dan is the opening line of the story rooted interception, and it's kind of this point. It's kind of as in John Cavanaugh's life where he has spent much time in Ireland, most of his life actually in the prison system there, and he is out we call kind of bail or probation, and he decides at that point of time to go to England, and from the Liverpool Docks, he leaves there and he journeys over to Nova Scotia on the ship register.

I have that as well. When he comes over, he actually uses the name John Ryan.

So at that point he's creating another identity to start his life all over again in Nova Scotia. So he does leave through Liverpool, England, comes arrives in Halifax, Nova Scotia here where he is involved in many a con here in Halifax before he makes his way down further into rural Nova Scotia where he assumes yet another name and another identity and becomes involved in this murder case.

Let's talk about. Right from the very beginning he uses this alias John Ryan. But it's very interesting as you write that immediately he meets someone named Thomas Forcey and he's very gregarious, this John Ryan, and he tells the story of where he has come from, and he befriends this person, and this person says, well, I just happened to be my wife's running a boarding house. And he told again just this beginning of the myriad of lies

Yeah, so this is kind of a pivotal moment for John well our John Cavanaugh's when he comes over. He meets this man Thomas Forcy, as you said on the ship, and it's kind of this moment where everything together. As I mentioned before, John Cavanaugh, he is a notorious con man and a thief, and he's just I picture him as this wonderful, gregarious, outgoing man you have to be if you're going to be a con man and you want to pull people into your deception, you need to

There, stealing from the people with whom he is staying.

The police are involved, so it is just from that moment it's like John Cavanaugh almost has this compulsion. He's unable to stop and really form a real relationship with anybody. He's telling lies right from the g He's got a rich uncle, he's got a sister who's coming to move with him. Of course, reading in hindsight, you can see why you shouldn't believe anything he said, but you can also see how people, especially at the time, are so trusting and just taken in by this charismatic irishman. He's

Yeah, he is a very interesting character.

It's interesting right away you tell that he is caught and suspected of stealing at this boarding house, and of course they notify the police about their suspicions and want him arrested. The police dilly dally and don't and say, well, tomorrow will be soon enough, And sure enough, this John Ryan is gone in the wind, isn't he.

Yes, that's absolutely right.

And there's a lot of research done too in the in Nova Scotia two of just about that police chief himself, who had a notoriously bad reputation as well for not really doing great police work, and this was a prime example of head John Ryan and John Kavanaugh have been caught at that moment, everything that happens afterwards would probably well definitely would have been prevented.

You're right that the only thing that he left behind was a pair of old boots, and they recognized the boots as the kinds of boots that convicts would wear. The next date that you have is January sixteenth, So soon after you take us to Bedford, Nova Scotia, and John Ryan is in a hotel room and checked in as mister Doyle. Of course his bill is to be paid, and of course he's probably telling the same story about

Right, So Bedford is just right outside of Halifax, So he's escaped from Halifax from courting House and he's gone to Bedford, which is really like a stone stowaway, so he's really.

Not far away.

And then, of course point in time, the hotelier wants his money paid, and so John realizes, why you don't have the money to pay, so he tells the man at the hotel get the money for you, and he leaves and again takes off and never comes back. All of this information does to say what we're talking about here. All is the result information that later comes out in newspaper articles with all these people being interviewed.

As to what happened.

So that's how we kind of are putting the sequence events all together. But basically he takes off again, does it pay, and leaves Bedford to head towards more rural Nova Scotia.

Take us at January twenty sixth, and there is another center called Eller House, Nova Scotia, and another hotel, Eller House Hotel. And this John Ryan, you say, comments because it's he's a foreigner in the country. This is pure woodland. This is pure wilderness that this guy has found himself in, not knowing where exactly he's going.

Yeah.

Absolutely, And this is one of the key factors that I think is the reason that he decided to stay in Eller's house. I believe he took the train from Halifox into Eller's house. Driving it takes maybe forty five minutes, and it really is even to this day, it is still very woodland, really rural, Nova Scotia.

And I believe that is why John Ryan and John Cavanaugh decided.

To stay in Eller's house because it really, really truly is in the middle of nowhere in the woods, which would make a very perfect place to hide and for him even just to regroup or figure out.

What he's going to do next. And so at this time he assumes the.

Name George Stanley, and that's really what he's called to and refer to in most of the trial information. From there, he's known as George Stanley. But he then gets involved himself in another scam with the people of Eller's House and trying to get them to sign up to have telephones installed. This is the time nineteen oh six course,

So he is a scam.

He's ingratiating himself into the community, but yet he is not yet collecting money, but he's still making a name for himself.

You're right that he's talking to the hotel Eller House hotel owner Charles Reich, and he tells him that he's from London and he's been here a couple of weeks, and it also lied and told that others similar in business had signed up for his service as well with

That's right, and I think that's kind of what planted a seed, saying, oh, okay, here's another venue, another option, another thing that I could try exploring. So the big question, of course is does he really mean to purchase the farm or is he just seeing this as really as an easy target, an older man living by himself.

And so, of course John Cavanaugh he goes to the house to see the.

Old man and he asks for to make change or something like that, and he realizes that Freeman Harvey is the one responsible for collecting the school taxes. He actually went George door and collected cash and he had it all in his house. So John Cavanaugh knows that this old man is in this house. He has lots of money available, easy target. He's alone, he's older, he's very very deaf as well.

Now he's also asked because he doesn't have a place to stay. And even the mister Harvey, old man Harvey, when he asked if who's interest in selling his farm, said, you don't really look like kind of guy that has enough money. So he also says to the farmer or mister Harvey, he says that you know any cheap place in the area that I could stay while I'm waiting for this windfall of money. And so he suggests the

Yeah, the Fisher family. They become very involved with George George Stanley John A Kabnat I never quite know how to keep referring Tommy. They become very involved with him, and they do have kind of like a boarding house sort of and John ends up renting a room from them. Now, the Fisher family is I would definitely call them like a product of the time periods.

Again, we're right at the turn of the century.

This is a very very very poor family and illiterate uneducated family again in the middle of nowhere. So those kind of are all circumstances that are around that family kind of creating leading to what's going to happen next. But as I say, they're uneducated, they have no ideas. So they are very taken in by John Cavanaugh, who we've already said is like a charlatan. He's really gregarious, and they definitely, for lack of better words, they fall

In the shed.

So they really have no idea what is happening to them or around them, and especially when they welcome this character into their home and their son Jim, who's about twenty five ish, John Bryan is about forty. They become fast friends and John promises that the son Jim, that he could have a job working with the telephone company. Then he also promises the Fisher family, well you can you can live in Freeman Harvey's house.

Once I by it.

I'm going to give you this farm and this house to take care of so of course they're even more smitten with him because of.

That news as well.

You're also talk that the matriarch of this family, the head of this family is Mary Anne and you say inarticulate and uneducated and very very very gullible. Now George Stanley goes to see Harvey to see the farmer. What happens in this discussion? How does it come about? And with this person so hard at hearing tell us about his coming to this farm and having discussion with this old man Harvey.

Yeah, so this is the part too where so Freeman Harvey does have a conversation with John Ryan about purchasing the farm. We do know that this happens, but as for really what really happens at that particular moment on everything kind of blows up starts taking place on the Friday afternoon, we do know that John or George Stanley, he goes to visit Fuldman Freeman Harvey to talk about the purchasing of the farm.

As I mentioned before, was a really really going to buy this farm?

And if so, what was the money he was going to use to purchase the farm or was this just a ploy to get the money that he thought was in the house.

So basically John Cob now he does go there on the Friday.

Afternoon, and then the Saturday morning he goes back to the Fisher's house and he says, he waves some papers in the air and says, look, I have the deeds to the farm. You can now go and move into the farm. Freeman Hervey he has gone to Halifax. He's gone to the city to work out the paperwork and do all the legal things for the selling of the farm.

So he's not there.

You come, you move in, and that's like the Saturday morning, and that kind of sets the whole thing for the scene for what happens over the weekend.

You talk about though, that George Stanley borrows a knife I believe from one of the Fisher boys, David, I believe, And David says, what for, what do you need the knife? Well, I'm doing some business and I need the knife. He says, well it's pretty dull, and he says that's okay. He still borrows, says I need to do some business with this knife. I'll give it back to you. He gives that knife back the next day. What does this David note about that knife?

Yeah, so he again, Yeah, he borrows the jack knife.

He goes down to see Freeman Harvey, comes back the next day, returns the knife, and all of a sudden, the knife is a lot sharper and a whole lot cleaner than he when he first.

Leant out the knife. So that was a little bit of a suspicion.

I'm not sure David Fisher really would have picked up on all that information, but right, he does make.

Note of it for sure.

Now, what is the George Stanley's mentions to people that are neighbors and and he's looking for at that time to be able to sell some things that were on this farm that he now claims to own exclusively tell us who he approaches, who does he talk to, and then tell us about the loan skeptic.

Right, So after he claims that he has purchased the farm, because as I say, he goes back to the Fishers and say, okay, you can move into the farm, the Fisher's start to kind of prepare for that. So then because he says that he now owns the farm, John now decides that he is going to basically liquidate all the assets. There are some oxen, there's a horse. It's it's not a huge farm, but there was enough equipment there and there's some hay and other farming materials.

So Jim then the fisher.

Jim Fisher then goes with John and they basically go around the community and the way the society kind of worked then at that time in the special in rural areas, it wasn't so much selling things like we do on Facebook, marketplace or whatever. It's more i'll trade you this, I'll barter, I trade you this for this, I'll give you this for that. So it was more rather than cash changing hands,

And it's kind of one of these things.

When I was writing, it almost needed to have little diagrams to say what material was with whom at what time, who had in their hands at what situation, because it was just kind of going back and forth around everybody. So again we have James Spence, who is the local politician. We have his younger brother, George Spence, who also purchases

A bad apple. He has a bad reputation.

He'd been tried in court before for an assault for beating up a mailman, and so he gets involved in this situation. So after all of this trading is happening, both Edgar and George Spence, these two other gentlemen who are involved in the burdering, it kind of they stepped back for a moment and they think, whoa, what is happening here? Why is John trading all of these materials? Why is he selling off all of this stuff for

You're right that while there they finally do get around to question them, and this McCarthy is very, very skeptical and confrontational as well, that there isn't a reason for this George Stanley to have David Fisher stay at the

Right, So exactly as you said, basically, John, he cuts off the whole back quarch of the house and he's like, don't go in there, don't go in there, and he makes everybody use the front door. And then, as he said, at one point, he gets a latch and like a pad lock, and he makes them bolt the door. They're eating lunch and Marianne Fisher, she comes up and she wants to make them lunch. And she's like, I'll go down to the root cellar, I'll get some potatoes and

So he does. He goes down, he grabs some potatoes.

He comes back up that Marianne can use it, and that's when he really locks the door and he says, nobody's to go out there.

Fraymon Harvey's stuff is out there, don't touch it. So again then John he leaves and he's not on the premises.

But again, these folks who've been there all weekend are really getting suspicious.

Like why is this door locked? What is going on? Why is he so nervous about this back door.

So again, at this point in time, John has basically disappeared.

They're not really sure where he is. He's gone. Jim Fisher the boyhood have been boarding with.

He's gone as well, and the community members who are there at the house are just kind of lost in trying to figure out what is happening. So they get together and they decide, okay, we're going to break the lock. So they get an axe, they break open the lock, they break open the door. They head down into the root cellar, into the basement, which would have been like a dirt floor basement in this old, old house. And when they get the course, they're arguing about who has

Tell us what they find in the bundle in the pot of potatoes.

Yeah, so right at the bottom, as I said, it's a cold storage, so of course where they would have kept all the vegetables, and there was a pile of potatoes, and there was some blood on the floor as well, and they were just kind of brooding through this crate of potatoes and they find a foot and the following the foot through they find the body of what they assume is Freeman Harvey in his own cellar, in his own pile of potatoes in the basement, and with the

Very interesting too is that normally there would be some decomposition and disfigurement of the facial features, but in this particular case, because of the temperature in that cellar, his body had been preserved, and especially when they lifted that head and saw the actual face in its original.

Condition, and it had been less than forty eight hours as well too, so it was a very very quick turnaround. And as you say, it was definitely cold and it was winter here, so meaning being extra cold.

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Now you have a character chief Samuel McDonald and another constable that are on this on the case, and they're also just looking for Jim Fisher and this George Stanley that are on the loose and in this very hard to search for in this dense woods, that's right.

So they know that they couldn't have gotten far because Jim and John have taken off by foot, and so they know they probably haven't gone far.

So they really do rally.

The entire community kind of comes together to try to figure out. There's a train line along there, and there's people one hundred they say, like over one hundred people came out and were like along sections of the railway trying to look. And again, as they mentioned before, this is a very deep wood area. There's a lot of logging camps through there too as well, and so they don't really know where to go. So as they say the community is involved, we have they also get involved

Into captivity Jim Fisher. But at that point in time, John Kavanaugh did run off further into the woods and he got away.

You're right. At this time at the same time, is that there is a couple Benjamin Shaw is a noted journalist and he has a son named Russell who's protegee nineteen years old. And there's a person from the Western Union Telephone Company, maybe a director I believe William McKee, and they team up to go to the Fishers and do some interviews, and they know and Benjamin knows, Shaw knows a story when he hears it.

That's right. So this is of course the.

Time period, although you could argue that this really hasn't changed very much today either, is that this is the time period where a solicious headline in a new newspaper is definitely going to is what's going to sell the newspapers.

So they do come down to Eller's.

House, they take the train down and they want to be the first there on the scene to get that story. So the person from the Western Union, because of course John had said that he was working for them, so he came down to say no, he's not working for us. And then also the newspaper recorder Russell, they come down and they spend all this time with the Fisher family to try to get first hand information about what happened and who this John Cavanat or George Stanley as they knew.

Him, who he really was.

And it's a very in depth interview that they did, and it's through this interview we are able to learn so much about what happened and who everybody was and the background. But whether these interviews are really ethical or you know, great style of journalism that can be argued as well.

But that's what.

Happened, what they did tell they did tell police at that time or pardon me, Russell show and William mckeeth was that this McCarthy was the guy they should really look at and and he was a known criminal and really you should be looking at him. So they noted that as well. There was a person named Hibbert Chapman and his sister was married to old Man Harvey. His sister Ida, so he joins the search because he's very

Yeah, so they did as I mentioned, They did go through the back woods into these logging camps and one of the logging camps was owned by this man named William Spence, and their family and their descendants still own all these logging areas as well, which is really interesting too, I find. But yeah, so he went down there and they discovered John Ryan George Stanley. He had just been there, he had had dinner at the logging camp. So they were able to say, oh, he went off in that direction.

At that point in time.

You're right that immediately this Chapman, Hibbert Chapman, asks him, why did you kill old man Harvey? And what is immediately and indicative of the kind of responses that will be continue. What does he have to say?

Yeah, well, absolutely, He's like, he's not involved, right, it's not him. He's placing the flame on other people.

It wasn't him.

More people were more involved than him. He places the blame on the fishers. He places the blame on Edgar McCarthy. Again, he uses his skills and attempts to talk his way out of the situation.

Despite him being a good liar and a good talker. What happens as a result, He's arrested. Tell us how police and even the media proceed.

Yeah, so he is arrested, John Ryan, John Kevanagh. He is arrested, and so are actually Dave Fisher and his son Jim Fisher, the Fisher family. They are also arrested as well, because John is saying, oh, the Fishers are involved. Fishers are involved as well. So all three of them are arrested, all three of them are charged with the murder.

Now.

Very interestingly as well, the three of them are all held together in the same jail cell. So it also allows for what I believe allows John to plant some ideas, some seeds into the Fisher's heads about maybe really what happens or things that he wants the fishers to say that opportunity is there because they are not separated in the jail cell. So that's where they also again start blaming Edbarger McCarthy as well for more of the murder as well.

What else does this George Stanley do while he's incarcerated and then tell us about the processes to be able to finally take him bring him to justice.

Yeah, so while he's in jail is to say, he keeps trying to talk his way out of the situation and it's not being very successful. While he's there, he's also he's a prolific writer and he writes tons of I'd say probably close to fifty seventy five letters he hands, writes letters trying to appeal, trying to get people in the community to help them come to his aid, the Irish society's politicians, His writing, his impeccable, beautiful penmanship, beautiful spelling,

Well, he's there.

Eventually they go and they have the inquest trial where it is determined that the Fishers really were just ponds in John in George's master plan. And so they are released and the trial will now go forward where John is the only person being convicted and accused of this murder.

Tell us how this trial proceeds, some of the characters involved and the media and public response.

Right, so what is again The trial takes place in this small town Windsor at the courthouse there, and the crowds from all around the flock in go to this trial. It is definitely a huge deal. Again, this is not a time where we had other forms of entertainment. We didn't have TV or social media all these things, right, so that the people are flocking and really getting involved in this case. And so during the trial we have a whole series of people who come forth to give

It does it, I mean, it's funny when you look at it now.

But you do realize that, you know, these are people who are just product of their times as well, so

Right from the onset? What is and it seems to be surprising certain people in the audience, maybe even the journalists themselves.

What is this?

George Stanley's John Kavanaugh's demeter through this throw?

Yeah, he's pretty quiet throughout the entire trial. He really doesn't say anything, and of course that makes for a really uneventful trial when you are there to witness something that is so super exciting and if he is not doing anything, that makes it really really boring, especially in terms of in my first book, Two Crows Sorrow, where we have the convicted murderer who is actively shouting things

Personally.

I think John slash George he'd been through the trial system so many times in his previous life that I think that's just what his his learned response was. But one of the interesting components too, that you were talking about the media as well, is that we really have a situation here. It's trial by newspaper, really trialed by

And then maybe a couple of days they might make.

A little bit of a retraction of a statement saying, oh, I guess that wasn't really true what we print it. But by that time the news is already out. So with the newspapers and the media, they really did turn public opinion against John. And that point in time as well, here in Canada, we had a lot of anti Irish sediment sentiment, so that was really playing out as well, so kind of all the media played that up to So whether John had a fair trial or was fairly treated,

But it's interesting.

He was an amazing, outgoing, well spoken con man, and he was articulate and could converse well in letters. Did he take the stand and why would he if he didn't? Why not?

No, he did not take the stand, and I think this was a really common practice at the time in a Canadian law here that they did not. Witnesses did not take the stand, and he was not even I don't even know if he was even asked to be able to do it. And besides, if he did, I don't know how much of what he actually would say you could actually believe him anyway. So now he did

And as I said, I do have those letters.

Not sure those letters were never sent all his letters to the politicians and for the appeal.

So the question is why did the jail, why did the justice system at that time, why did they not mail any of his letters?

So that's another interesting point to consider, with the fairness of maybe how he was treated.

Well, that's what I found interesting is that you say there's no real good reason for him seemingly to be to be prevented from sending out those letters. However, they did realize how much of a con man was and how convincing he was, and that might have been a good reason, especially considering that if they read that correspondence, that he was probably doing everything in his power to reach out to people in Ireland and London and everywhere

Excellent point, a really excellent point. And actually I never thought of pout it in that way, and that's very very possible.

Just just just let it lie.

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Now, also in this case, the prosecution brought everybody up on that stand to as they said, it was a circumstantial case. But these circumstances put together, there was no other inference to be made other than this. George Stanley, John Cavanaugh, John and Ryan was guilty of this heinous murder. But was very interesting, and we've seen it before, but at this time in history, very interesting to see the defense, as you write, call no witnesses whatsoever.

Yeah, absolutely, and that was a very interesting tactic.

I do'm sure if they probably couldn't find somebody who would speak on his behalf. Again, sometimes these types of cases were just kind of tossed to a particular lawyer. Here you have to take this on, and it's not something like the defense really had anticipated having to do, or it's often given to a very very junior lawyer maybe who didn't have as much experience. But there's many times where they do make notes that here is this man alone in the wilderness in a foreign country with

Idea that even at this trial, it's very, very fascinating to talk about people commenting at this trial, hoots and clapping and calm at this trial.

That's right.

I mean, as I said before, like this is the main form of entertainment. At this time, people were really invested. And it's really no different today where we really involved in these cases and we have these judgments, we want to say our opinion, and we're excited and we're just caught up in the moment as well. So I say we're exactly the same today. I have a fascination with true crime. I'm the same way.

But people were.

Definitely willing to give their opinions and to make sure justice was served in this case.

The one bright spot in this condemned person's life. As we mentioned in the introduction, this is a death penalty. He faced execution and he was sentenced to hang. But one respite in all of this was the jailer's daughter, Winifred tell us about this relationship that at least gave him some solace towards the end.

Yeah, so a lot of the records when right before the John, right before John gets hanged, there's a lot of records where he's thinking a lot, giving a lot of things to this miss Smith. He mentions her quite frequently, this Miss Smith, and she comes to visit him in the jail and basically forms a relationship with him. She's

He wasn't this monster killer. He was human.

You write about his background near the end of the book, not so much in the beginning, and you talk about what you found about his life in Ireland. Tell us about some of the background that you found.

Yeah, so again, my background is in psychology as well. So this is the kind of the part that really really interests me. It's like, how did you become who you were? And when doing this research with in Ireland, this is really what we discovered. So I think one of the big turning factors is that John's father dies when John is quite young, so his mother has three children that she needs to care for. Things are very tough financially. They have to move to another house and

In and out, in and out, in and out.

So I have all of those prison records. Now, if you examine these prison records from Ireland, what I take to note is that predominantly the crimes that he does there beginning they're theft, and they usually happen around the end of October. And I think the first one is like he's convicted of stealing a coat, and maybe then in the next fall he's convicted of stealing the trousers,

Let's talk about the run up to the gallows and the media coverage and what his disposition is at the end.

Yeah, So.

If the hanging does take place at the courthouse in the small town, they do it in the in the very wee hours of the morning, so that nobody else will know the exact time.

It's not published.

They don't want big crowds coming, they don't want people to witness it.

It's they want it to be very subdued and quiet, just based I think a lot of that was.

Based upon in my first novel, To Crows Sorrow, that hanging that had happened two years before in a town slightly we close by was such a debacle and things where it became a complete riot that I think the town here Windsor did not want to want any of that to happen, so they really shut down the procedure and made it very quiet. So all throughout the time, you know, John is there, and he is he's still not saying very much. You know, he's saying that he's innocent,

Very very interesting. What do you conclude in this book in terms of what you've learned from this and just sort of your your take on this after completing this book and the research involved.

My thoughts about the murder and everything that happened. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, I went through when I was writing it. As I said, my husband thought I really liked this character of John too much, and I feel it probably did.

I mean, I murder aside everything that.

Led to that moment, I kind of understood maybe where he was coming from, and so I was really conflicted about really what happened in terms of the murder and where he was and the mind frame around all.

Of that was very conflicted.

And why weren't these letters sent and was he really trying to buy buy the farm? All of these were kind of open questions. But the more I thought about it after words, and listening to other true crime podcasts about other people who are con people, I really feel that in the end, John really discovered that his lies were catching up to him. He hadn't bought the farm, he wasn't going to buy the farm, and he hadn't made any arrangements or agreements, and he promised the Fishers

It is extraordinary the people that he were hell was able to convince of something oppositional to what were really had occurred. He was a marvelous, conniving and convincing criminal. I want to say absolutely, I want to thank you so much, Laura Churchill Duke for coming on and talking about Rooted Interception. For those people that might want to check out your other work and do you have a website and do you do any social media tell us about time.

Yeah, absolutely, thank you so much.

My website is Laura Churchill Duke dot ca and all of the information is about both of my books, To Crossoro and Roaded Deception are both on that. I'm also on Facebook under my name Laura Churchill Duke and then as an author, so that's the name of the page there and I can be found there and the books are all online as well, through Amazon and Indigo and Barnes and Nobles, then Wilmert just about everywhere that you can purchase books online.

They are there as well.

Fantastic Thank you so much, Laura Churchill Duke, rooted in Deception. You have a great evening. Thank you so much for this.

Thank you so much.

Good night,