REQUIEM FOR A FEMALE SERIAL KILLER-Phyllis Chesler

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in America. Alien Warnos is a damaged soul, a genuine American outlaw, a symbol of women's rage, a symbol of what can happen to severely abused children, and of how our justice system fails women. Chessler's involvement with a serial killer has haunted her ever since. She speaks in Aileen Warnos's voice as well as in her own, and delivers an incisive, original, and dramatic portrait of a cognitively impaired, traumatized, and alcoholic woman who endured so much pain in her

short life. When she had had enough, the results were deadly. This is a poignant, sometimes humorous, never before told, behind the scenes tale well. Warnos's story is handled with great sensitivity, but also with realistic detachment by Chesler as she probes the telling moment. The telling phrase was Warno's suffering from post traumatic stress after a life lived on a killing field? Was she also born evil? So many prostitutes have been

torture murdered by serial killers? How did Warnos once pray become a predator? Requiem for a Female serial Killer will also haunt you. It won't let you put it down. Take a walk on the wild side The Ghost of Alien Warnos Beckons. The book that we're featuring this evening is Requiem for a Female Serial Killer with my special guest, journalist and author Philip Chesler. Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for this interview. Philip Phillips Chesler.

possibly the nation's first serial killers. And it was a warning put out too men traveling off Highway one seventy five, I seventy five. All of these men were strangers, not husbands, not intimates.

a few seconds to get her attention. So I said, Lee, I represent a feminist government in exile. We know that you've been captured and we'd like to help. And she responded, far fucking out. You're the women's lib right, I said yes, And then she said, tell the women out there that

I'm innocent, Tell them that men hate our guts. I was raped and I defended myself, and she referred to the known I mean gerald Steno had been killing prostitutes, mainly black cocaine addict prostitutes, all over Florida, was never caught for a long time. She knew about this. The corpses littering the highways were those of women, not of men.

So what she did ultimately was a first. As you said already, she was meant to be prey, and she became the first time out someone who killed in self defense. I really believe that thereafter something changed and she became a predator. So that's how it began.

I didn't even think, is she is serial killer? Do you really want to mix it up with a serial killer? I only saw her as someone who'd been raped all her life, paid to be raped eventually, who probably had organic brain syndrome and other cognitive and neurological impairments, hustled every day of her life from the time she was quite young, like maybe nine or ten, and I go through all of the traumatizing and tortuous experiences that she had, and she was the tougher for it, and the more

dissociated for it. So I saw in her the opportunity to put prostitution on trial, to put male violence and contempt for women who are prostitutes or who they view as if they are prostitutes, on trial. I also wanted to have a jury here that women should have the right to kill in self defense, but mainly don't the first time that Eileen killed in self defense? What could she have done gone to the police. There was a warrant out for her arrest. She was already a criminal

by definition because she was selling sex for money. The johns don't get arrested, they are not seen as criminals. So there's a little movement in that area, but not much really, So what could she have done? She had to just go back to earning her daily bread, so to speak. So I didn't even contemplate is she a serial killer? If so, what kind? And it took me years to profile the kind of very unique serial killer that she is.

Of course, she didn't get a fair deal, a fair shake, not in her life, and not at her first trial, and not when she made her first confession, because the video of that confession, when her only goal was to rescue her lover who was the one who betrayed her by taking the stand against her, and the cops cannily set that up. And I write about what they did

and what it led to. So the fact that Lee, that's what people call her, the fact that Lee kept referring to she killed in self defense sixteen times in that confession. The jury didn't get to hear that because somebody edited it out of the video that the jury was shown. So that's just one of many many examples of too little justice for her. On the other hand, I can't say, well, the public defenders through the case

because she was a hard client. She cursed like a sailor, she cursed like old the men who were John's in her life, none of whom she hated. She thought they were her friends or her boyfriends. Some of them gave her advice carry a gun. You know, in a fact, you're not working, honey, you're in a war. So she started carrying a gun, which did save her life that first time. And this is something that I talked to

her about at length. She would never ever reveal the details of each murder, so I had to imagine it through her eyes based on what I understood about her, what I had learned from talking to her and corresponding with her and reading every piece of paper legal and otherwise that I could find. And she was a very quick study. Because suddenly, he is she's hearing from a feminist who has other feminists backing her up who want to put together a team, like a dream team for her.

She starts talking like a feminist. I was kind of impressed and amazed. So I think that women who are prostituted pretty much know how to say what they think the customer wants to hear, and you never get to know what they're really thinking. So she was quite good at that. And I remember at a certain point I asked her, could you please write down for me how many times you've been raped? And she did, and then she read it to me on the phone. Well, her

definition of rape was not my definition. And I've studied rape traumas syndrome, and anyone who's listening knows that some women they get raped once and it changes, it crushes a bit of their soul for a while, if not forever, even if they continue on with their lives. So she how definition was when a bunch of guys, probably on the young side, tie you down, tie you up, bang, rape you, rob you, threaten to kill you, beat you up,

but then you live. So she was giving me examples of this, and then she had another definition of being raped, which was if you sell the sex, which is like getting money for being raped, but the guy doesn't pay you. That's another definition of rape to her. And after she got through I don't know ten or fifteen, I said, you can stop now because it's way off the charts, although it's totally typical of any prostitute's life. And she says, now I can keep going. It's okay. It doesn't bother me.

I'm thinking, oh my god, but it bothers me. You know, such extreme profound violence, and she toughed it out because and drank. You have to drink or take drugs and get dissociated in order to make your way through this war zone.

performed a legal adoption or not, I'm not sure. I can check and her grandfather was its Finnish origin in Michigan, Troy and Rochester, Michigan where it gets pretty cold in the winter. And she was probably difficult and rebellious, and she was hard of hearing and visually impaired. And the grandmother, who Lee claimed did really love her, never correct did

these impairments. I'm not sure why not. She managed to get herself into different kinds of trouble, but her grandfather beat her savagely for minor infractions as well as for major infractions. And then she began she was very proud that she didn't take drugs, and she didn't consider the beer that she drank a drug. I do, and because she drank a lot of it. But you know, back

in the day, she tried psychedelics, she tried grass. She had to obtain them somehow when she was eight or nine or ten, so she started getting them by having sex with neighboring boys. And this was voluntary, she said, this was voluntary. But then when she was about thirteen going on fourteen, she was raped and impregnated, presumably by a friend or someone who represented himself as a friend of her father grandfather. And can you imagine what her

family felt here. She's someone who doesn't clean up after herself, who has a bad temper, who's loud, doesn't pay attention in school, can't see, can't hear very well. At the trial, I think this was true as well. She's pregnant, so she goes to the Florence Crittenden Home for unwed mothers in an era when it was seen as shameful and there was no question ever about keeping your baby. You

have to sight. Unseen baby is whisked away. And by the way, that's the kind of torture, and it's catastrophic and traumatic, just that that male serial killers cannot go through. In many ways or in some ways, she was like male serial killers, bullied and isolated, and she did set two fires with her brother, but then her grandparent parents threw her out and she lived in an abandoned car

in the snow. Now this is unheard of because where were the social workers, Where was the police department, Where were the other adult neighbors. Why was she not looked after or rescued or helped in some way? Of course she wasn't, and I'm not saying she was an easy ride, but she was a child. She was a child, So after she was raped and pregnated and forced to give up or probably wanted to give up a baby for adoption, that's when she told her aunt's sister Laurie that men

hate us, they really hate us. I don't know where that sentence came from in her head, but at that point she hit the road, and she was young and good looking and blonde and Scandinavian and was hooking on the road. Now, who's on the road truck is? They could be big and rough and good time guys. Likewise, and she was by then, at fifteen sixteen, drinking a lot of beer and had a child sense of money. So, for example, her brother Keith died and left her ten

thousand dollars. A regular kind of person would say, hmm, maybe I could make a down payment on a house or fund some education. No, she blew it in three months on a car which was repossessed, and on beer, music, and food. So I only gradually began to comprehend that maybe, even though she was slick and smart and drew beautiful drawings, that she may have had a low IQ as well, not a high one. And in many ways she was

thinking the way a child thinks. If you have enough money from the sex for a motel room for a couple of nights, and for beer and food, you're okay. So the ability to plan ahead was nonexistent, and unlike many high profile male serial killers, she just left clues everywhere. She wasn't strategic in her killings. So here you have a child in America, a child of Michigan, who was just allowed to disappear and make her own little way

in this wide wide world. And in Requiem for a Female serial Killer, I do have some of her descriptions which are heart rendering of what it means when guys get rough with you, exactly what it means. I'm not going to read them on the air, but you know, this was her life, and she toughed it out. And when she was in jail in Citrus County, it was male jail and everybody was like taunting her, the male prisoners, And she started telling me about it, and I said,

oh my god, how can you parent? She goes, I'm tough, I can take it. It doesn't bother me. Let them talk, you know. So she was from another world, not my world. I'm privileged to lead a life of ideas and an activist life. She didn't have that chance. And in fact it was funny because here I came, and other feminists with me who were revolutionary in our vision, and we wanted to overturn this bad stuff. She just wanted a piece of the pie. She just wanted, you know, fair

and square our meals and her her money for her work. Different. She was a petit bourgeois capitalist and did not understand, could not believe why anyone, beginning with myself and others like me, would do something for no money. She didn't get it, So I was a fool, also not just she.

then she was really obsessed with money. And I understand that many male serial killers are likewise. So she had two very different kinds of relationships to money.

How can they be given what they must do and what they must think? So perhaps they were bonded, joined at the hip, but it wasn't necessarily or primarily sexual. So it was a matter of having someone there, a living being, a body in the cave, so to speak. So Tyrea said she didn't like Lee hooking and that she would have worked two jobs cleaning motels or doing

minimal wage work to keep Lee off the road. Lee said no, Tyree wanted cigarettes and beer, and I had to keep giving her money and I had to work to support her. Now I could not decide where the truth lay between the two of them. So and Lee, by the way, did not hate men. Does not hate men, or at least that's what she said. On the one hand,

men hate our guts. But on the other hand, hey, my best friends, you know, are these guys you know, and they're like boyfriends or and she like a child, she would do some things that prostitutes do not do. She would cuddle, she would kiss, is unheard of in the world of prostitution. So again signaling to me that there was a primitive child trapped in this grown up body.

And she had many boyfriends before the first lesbian love affairs she had before Tyrea many boyfriends, and she could not understand why they always screwed her and hit her and left her. So I tried to see a lot of it through her eyes, because she really didn't understand why she kept getting in trouble, genuinely didn't get it because she saw herself as trying hard and being forced to fail. Nobody gave me a break, ever, was her line.

So she had a complicated relationship, as most prostitutes do to sexuality, it gets wrecked for them wrecked.

to look like Hoc is not Lee. She was just dressed like an ordinary housewife. And her line was, Oh my car broke down and I have to pick up my kids. Can you give me a lift? Pretty clever so and she also imagined she had no car, and I think the main reason was not only that they they could not afford a car, but she could not get a license and she was wanted. There was a warried out for her arrest, and she had already done time in jail for something that really, she would say,

was not her fault that happened to her. So she's walking like biblically along the highways and the blazing sun, or sometimes taking the Voutran bus line. So she's like a creature from the way back in the past, and everyone else is speeding by in cars. I would imagine that that alone could cause a permanent resentment and a burn on a low boil that got hotter. So that was her mo and it was simple and it was smart.

the men instead of men looking for women. And then but just the treatment of prostitutes, and also Eileen's treatment in the past, before we talk about Richard Mallory or any of the subsequent other victims.

from highly dysfunctional, impoverished backgrounds. They're very often women of color, but not only and they are raped, beaten, prostituted at home, like this woman who's about to be federally executed, Lisa Montgomery. Her mother prostituted her to a series of men at home from childhood on or from early teenage years on. So very typically prostitutes are runaways hoping to get this awful stuff behind them, but of course they're then latched onto by pimp and they have to eat. They're homeless.

Homelessness is a big problem. They don't have the children. They're ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, and the Johns want young children. They're pedophiles. Psychologically, even when a woman is over eighteen, she has to pretend to look younger, or

say she's younger to be more marketable. So most prostitutes are not there because it's there because they had a choice between becoming the president of a large corporation, the president of a university, or being a street hooker or an escort service hooker or chain to the rother wool traffic. And by the way, trafficking is the same as prostitution. It's someone being trafficked for the purpose of prostitution. And

this is a huge global industry. It's bigger than guns, and it's bigger than drugs, and it's female and sometimes male children, male sexual slavery. This is the biggest slave trade that we have. But it's simply not seen that way,

which is unbelievable. And the prosecutor, John Tanner, who prosecuted Lee, and who himself had been Ted Bundy's spiritual adviser, he has gone on record, he's written some articles in Florida newspapers describing prostitutes as vile, as evil, as causing healthy, wonderful family men, not only causing them to go astray, but giving them diseases, when it's quite the other way around. So you're right, the general view of prostitution is. She

loves it. It's going to end well for her. All of the film Pretty Woman, she's bringing men down, not that men are demanding it, but she's demanding of them their money. Why because women are not equal economically anywhere in the world. And yes, we have fabulous exceptions, but that's the rule. So something like war zones, genocidal war zones, poverty, homelessness,

parents sell their girls. Hempce trick them by saying, you come to America or to wherever, and you'll have a wonderful job and you'll meet a great man, he'll marry you, and everything will be terrific. And they fall for this from Eastern Europe, from Russia, from Ukraine, from Thailand, and then no exit from hell, and they are gang raped to season them and break their spirits, and then they're

addicted to drugs which they cannot do without. And then most of the money that they earned goes to the pimp and the brothel keeper and the landlord, etc. So you don't get rich from this so called profession which again I repeat, it's not work like sex work. And here a group of US, a large number of US, part company with the feminists who believe that women have the right to sell anything, babies from their womb, any of their orifice for someone else's sexual pleasure for money.

I see it as slavery and is a forced choice and is extremely violent as a war zone, a killing field, and not as like you don't see the daughters. This is often a very very wealthy, civilized families choosing to be prostitutes. Yes some do, but that's not who's out there.

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murder to start your Ritual today. Now, Phyllis, we were getting a little off track because what people have always looked at, and of course that's why she was convicted, and is that we have to get to the reality. The idea that people will accept the idea that a prostitute has shot seven or more men in self defense is beyond an uphill climb, despite the cases that you

cite and you bring to the defense team. Let's talk about Richard Mallory and talk about where Eileen and Tyr were in the relationship when Richard Mallory came in into their lives.

never on trial. So Mallory had just been partying with two other prostitutes who were one of whom was picked up for his murder, but was ultimately let go because the they were like warners because they too were prostitutes, and so they were made for his murder. Now, I believe Lee's very credible description of that night, which would have been in nineteen eighty nine, the end of November or the very beginning of December, even though she herself

recanted this. I didn't believe the recantation. And I've been trained as a clinical psychologist, and I was a professor of psychology at so you know, I had in my bones I believed her. The first trial. I found her moving incredible. She was the only defense witness for herself. Nobody else was called, and I mean none of our pro bono potential dream team were called, and they were

He picked her up and by and bye. They decided that yeah, they'd have sex, and Lee gave him her prices and he before he tied her up and began to brutally torment her and do terrible things to her. He said, well, he doesn't really have the money, so that's already he's going to rate me. He's going to rate me without paying me. That's way out of line to her, and she told him that, but he tied her up, He tied her to the steering wheel, and he had his terrible way with her. And when he

Lee was very rigid cognitively. And I give some examples of this in the book, Like she would get on the bus and she'd say, you have to stop right here where the bus driver always stopped, but no, the bus driver had a new mandate and he couldn't. And she went crazy because it had to be just on the line. So imagine if a guy, a John wanted something that was way out of line to her or took it without her consents, she would get pretty enraged.

I mean but really very enraged, not normally enraged. So Mallory was in that category, and she finally, most miraculously decided to save her own life because she figured he was not only to kill her, but she said, he's going to dissect me or some weird stuff. So she managed in a split second to get to her shopping bag in which she kept her gun, and she started shooting, and he didn't stop coming at her, and she kept shooting.

Unlike a male serial killer. She covered his body up so that it wouldn't be pecked at by birds, and she didn't want to run over him, so she then drove his car, took whatever trophies or money he had in the car, lied to Tyrea and said, well, you know a friend of mine. You let me the car, we have to keep it out of side. His wife will get jealous. Whatever story she made up. And for a while she didn't go right back to work. She

was spooked. What happened spooked her, and as I said before, she couldn't go to the police, so she just drank a whole lot and continued on with life as she knew it to be. So Mallory was really bad guy, and as in his treatment of women. And he had an ex girlfriend, Jackie Davis, who was willing to testify to this. But of course, quote the dead man is not on trial. So in so many different ways, the

trial was not just or fair. And when you compare it to the trials of male serial killers, oh there's no comparison, because they who kill mainly prostitutes between seventeen to one hundred women, they will get life sentences, not necessarily execution, legal execution, and it takes the juries a while to make these decisions, like in Ted Bundy's case, also in Florida, but in Mornos's case, they decided very quickly guilty unanimously in one hour and a half and

death sentence in another hour and a half. You know, so being perceived. After the defense asked for a change of venue, they were not granted that Ted Bundy was granted a change of venue to Miami from where he was first on trial. And everyone had been reading all about everything that she had done and the depiction. I was told by feminists in Florida who worked with rape victims and battered women, you know they're.

her as a swamp creature from hell. And she's the real Thelma and Louise. Before the movie opened, she was there doing this before all the films that have since been cheered on with women assassins, batted, wives who kill. Finally, there's a huge number of films that have now made it into the common culture, and she preceded most of them, which is kind of interesting.

that case, that it was based on her confession. Now, what I'm saying is that this case is completely complicated by having Tyrea in there, and then the approach by police, and then of course the phone calls in the confession and the reason for the confession that Lee says and admits that that was the reason for her confession. So what I'm saying is it's it's much different when you have the pressure on Tyrea after she is told and we didn't mention this, she is told by Lee that

she has killed Richard Mallory. Let's talk about the Let's talk about the relationship with Tyrea and Lee after Richard Mallory, and then what happens in terms of behavior and conduct from Lee before we lead, before we find out where the police finally catch up with these people based on composite drawings, and then that pressure on Tyrea changes everything, doesn't it.

went back to her family. She had a very large family, and Lee was totally broken up about this. And then the cops found Tyrea and basically threatened her with arrest, conspiracy. She knew about it, and she didn't come forward. She's going to be tried for murder. And to get out of it, she had a start calling Lee, which she did, and they taped the calls. There was a wire tap from the jail. Lee kept saying, wait a minute, wait a minute, is this being taped? Are you really in trouble?

And Tyria, reading her lines that the police gave her, said, oh baby, you know they're coming after me. They're coming after my family. I didn't do anything. This is not right, and eventually lisaid, don't worry, I'll take care of it. So I call that chapter a fool for love. I mean, she confessed for love, and Tyria not only helped entrap her to save her own skin, But I mean Tyria was seen, not ditch. She was seen driving wildly in one of the cars, and then they had an accident.

She was witnessed, so she was culpable, and she was legitimately frightened and was willing to turn on Lee to get the heat off her. And she did not commit the murders, presumably anyway. So what made Lee crazy was not Tyrea's betrayal. What made her crazy was that the cops allegedly were cutting deals for a movie before they captured her, and Tyrea was in on it. So Lee's

presiding obsession thereafter was the crooked cops. Sometimes she'd say, what she wrote this law review article or whatever I wrote about her case, It was very good, but you got to get the cops. You got to get the cops, you know, And what does that mean? That means the authority figures the police officers who in her past would have said listen, I'm a cop and you're gonna give me sex or I'm gonna arrest you and I'm not

going to pay you. Right. So she saw the cops in general and authority figures in general as corrupt and wanted to get them, and this was one of her main obsessions after she was captured. So Kyria, she got scared and the cops had her, and the cops used her and it worked.

didn't know what she was doing. Well, to some extent, yeah, you could say that was she so permanently traumatized and angry and super vigilant. I mean, Tyrieus said that Lee would never let anyone get anything over on her, And that was a very important sentence for me because when I profiled her the kind of serial killer she is, she unlike male serial killers, didn't go for vulnerable, younger, smaller people like girls and women. No. No, she punched up.

It's unheard of. Yeah, she punched up, and that means she went for men who were taller and heavier and to some extent older but not always a lot older than she was, and she took them down. This unheard of. So she was always angry and always arguing, and she picked fights with everyone. Tyrea said it was too embarrassing to be in public with her, so when they went out to a bar together, Tyrea was totally but silent, said nothing, talk to no one, and we would often

embarrass them. So what does this tell us about about Lee? Warnos tells us that she's got a borderline personality, which is the diagnosis for an incest victim. It tells us that she's got a not necessarily a sociopathic personality, but a borderline personality and a social personality disorder. She didn't know the rules at all of straight life. Nothing. She couldn't conduct herself civilly. She didn't know the rules when she made her confession. And I watched it and I

read it a number of times. It was a video. She fought these cops for her John's like her friends. They offered her coffee, they offered her cigarettes, and she was just now beginning to detox from alcohol lifetime's worth. And she was so soft spoken and husky voiced, and she really was acting. She thought these guys were go to help her. She didn't know why she would need a lawyer. She goes, I'm going to tell you the truth. What do I need a lawyer for? And they did

not provide one until very late in that confession. So let me tell you. Well, maybe I shouldn't say all of it, but she's There are a lot of women who are as abused as Aileen Mornos was. They don't become serial killers. They may go down softly and slowly or fast, but they don't kill anyone. She did. And there's many women who are serial killers. She's not the first one. She's a unique one, but not the first. And they're known as black widows. I'm sure you know this.

And they will kill husband after husband or aging patient after aging patient for insurance policy money or real property. And they will also kill girls who they lure into prostitution if they try to run away sometimes if they don't. So women kill it's not as if we was the first ever. But unlike male serial killers, she didn't do this for sexual reasons, and she didn't pick on men because she wanted to mutilate them and pose them and obscene positions. She's the one that covered their bodies and

didn't want to run over them by accident. So she may have been really angry at men in the way that male serial killers are permanently angry at women who they think are prostitutes, and they hate being dependent on women and want to triumph over female sexuality and birth giving capacities. But she didn't organize her kills, and I had a theory of what may have happened after the first one with Richard Mallory, So what she did was unique.

You don't you don't have women going around or prostitutes. Some may have killed a temple John. There are some historical examples I give, but it's very rare and it's not as you pointed out seven and the men who who le killed three with John's. The others may not have been The others may have committed a cardinal error of she needed their money, she needed to eat, she had to pay the rent. Right, but they didn't want sex with her, They didn't want to give her their money.

That could have been her own personal demented Affirmative action program right, so that but some of them were John's because their bodies were were naked or naked from the waist down, or in Mallory's case, you wouldn't take off his clothes, but his belt and his pants were twisted to the side. So and she didn't do this. So she's a unique serial killer.

the Old Boys network that she's part of. She's got off the die Korps. Where's the win and net? And also, although I think that Lee was a credible and sympathetic witness on her own behalf, she, as I said, doesn't stop cursing. And in my opinion, by the time they executed her, she was legally insane. I said to her, you know, long before this, you could do an insanity defense, and she was very insulted and she said, never, I won't you know you? I said, I think you qualify.

But she didn't want that, and there was a she didn't want people prying into her mind or finding fault with her minds. It was interesting thing. And do I think that it would have worked? Not sure. I'm sure Trisha thought of this also when Lee refused to do it. Do I think that any statemental asylum like Chattahoochee in Florida would ever have let her out? No? I don't think so, and they would have drugged her up. But good however, to be then on death row in isolation

for so many years, it made it crazy. It makes a lot of I mean, she both found God, she found Christ, and she went crazy. They were poisoning her food. There were sonic graves coming into her head. The lawyers who good meaning folk got for her, they were against her. They were part of the CIA, or the FBI or out of space. And I thought, you know, we're not supposed to execute the insane. Am I wrong?

be a leader, will be going. We're undergoing. And so how important was that two of those victims after Richard Mallory were law enforcement And how important was it that the women were adamant and some of these guys had reputations, they were successful people, that they were adamant not to besmirch those people's reputations. How important was the first law enforcement may be involved?

surprised to discover this. I was not a fan. I was a feminist, abolitionist who wanted to have certain principles understood a lot better in our world. And ask me.

She was not going to try. She was not going to go on trial again because she saw that there would be no justice for Harwai Wei's time, and she thought that she could then die, that she'll just tell the state of Floria to kill her. I said, no, no, once they have you, it's up to them when not you. But she didn't understand that. So Trish did have an Elizabeth McMahon, a doctor psychologist, and she had another witness who did refer to her limited and primitive childlike being

and to her bad breaks in life. But it made no difference. It made no difference at all. That jury wasn't going to buy into any you know, there can't be true justice without some mercy. She didn't get any mercy, and many prostitutes don't. When male serial killers kill them, we don't even learn their names. We just remember the names of their killers. So and you know, Trisha also referred to her hard childhood and her hard life. It

made no difference. Tanna portrayed her successfully as a quote predatory prostitute whose quote appetite for lust and control had taken a lethal term, as someone who and this is really rich who quote had been exercising control for years over then and who quote killed for power, for full and ultimate control. End of quote. I'm quoting him directly. So this was why I wanted a jury to learn what prostitution is and what prostitution does. They didn't have that opportunity.

amount of money. No, she doesn't own anything and has never lived anywhere and believes survival is well it is for her just day to day at a motel which he's always scraping together funds, has no car, like I say it resents that has a bicycle, And she's doing all these things because she finally has a love in her life of someone that accepts her. They hang around

with each other all the time, they hang out. How important was this at some point these Again I won't dispute of Richard Mallory and her self defense, but at some point is it at least a factor that she wants to please and provide for her lover.

I don't think she would have given up hooking. But I do think that Tyrea may indeed have me telling me the truth, saying, look, I didn't wanted to do it. I told her to stop, she wouldn't stop. I would have worked two jobs, but the two jobs that Tyria would have worked wouldn't have brought in as much money as Lee could bring it. Not that that was a huge sum, but Tyrea unskilled labor, you know, cleaning motel rooms,

maybe working a cash register. I don't know. So I think both things are true, and they are opposite truths. What I wanted to say about cult followings, even though I do write about it, because I was shocked to discover it that Wikipedia in the entry for her birthplace Troy, Michigan, lists her as one of their notable people, along with a whole of check it out, Hall of Fame baseball player, a Tony Award winning actor, an HL defenseman, a pit you know. So she's come a kind of folk hero.

Even though her life was sordid and tragic and beyond agonizing, she's now a folk hero and people are buying on Etsy T shirts with her image on it and dirt where her ashes were scattered under a tree in Michigan. I mean, it's it's unbelievable.

to true crime. Now I'm committed, but this is the first such book I've ever written. So I managed to block out until it was utterly necessary for me to look at what she had done and try to explain why and how she had done this. So for me, it was an adventure in figuring it all.

blow her case. And I said, I'll sign, I'll sign a legal document. You know that I won't do anything, you know, for twenty years or until after everything is over, And whatever that made mean, and she didn't have me do it, but I don't think she ever trusted me, and I set it aside. I had other things to do. I wrote many, many other books during this time, and then literally as I was renovating my apartment, a box

fell off the shelf. I opened it and in it were about five chapters that I'd written long ago, and I couldn't put it down. It was wonderful. I said, Oh, my God, and how timely and how burning these issues still are. And then I resurrected my entire Warnos archive, which meant they were on floppy discs. I had to

convert them and then print them out. And then I read every scrap the vois Deer of the jury, every legal document I could lay my hands on, every other book written about her, magazine articles, and then the interviews. I interviewed everybody, and I have transcripts of the interviews. And then I realize, Okay, now I'm going to do it. And as I was doing it from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty, you know, part of the time Quarantines, I

understood how unique she was as a serial killer. I didn't pay close attention before I was writing round the clock intensely for a year. So that's why it took so long, because I really put it out of mind, out of sight. I let it go for a while.

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