REAP THE WHIRLWIND-Peter Houlahan

Minutes later, gunshots rang out and the truck's driver, Sagon Penn, fled the scene in an officer's patrol car. The incident stunned the city. What followed would change it forever. Penn was an idealist who believed in the power of Buddhist chance to bring about the oneness of humanity. The two police officers were rising stars in one of the most progressive police departments in the country, yet one that had suffered more officers killed in the line of duty than

any other. While the facts of the case were never in dispute, what remained unresolved was what, if anything, could justify such a violent confrontation. For over two years, a determined prosecutor and a charismatic defense attorney engaged in a sensational courtroom drama that revolved a round matters of mental health, racial biases, and the self image of a once sleepy beach town grappling with its transformation into a major metropolitan area.

The Sagon Penn incident forever altered how San Diego would respond to incidents involving police and communities of color. The book they were featuring this evening is Reap the Whirlwind, Violence, Race, Justice, and the Story of Sagon Penn, with my special guest, freelance writer and author Peter Holahan. Welcome to the program. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for this interview.

big city. It didn't it didn't have big city problems, and it was easy for it to see that to feel that way because it economically did very well. But the area that was that was having troubles in nineteen eighty five, as were most inner cities of most bait big cities, was Southeast San Diego, and that was a whole minority community and the area of Encanto and the areas around that within Southeast San Diego were primarily black.

The black population San Diego has never exceeded more than six or seven percent, So this was a community that was small and was very easy for the rest of San Diego to overlook. So this was a community that was starting to experience violence, harder drugs, more deadly gangs, and a lot of guns. The rest of the city sort of refused to believe it. The people in saying Southeast San Diego felt like they were being ignored and

underserved and under a appreciated. There was another group that also felt that way, and those were the police officers who policed the area. Symptoms of San Diego not believing it was a big city with big city problems was it kept its police force extremely small. Per capita is about the easily the lowest per capita police officer per

citizen in the country. That force was also feeling like they were having increasing difficulty controlling the crime levels that were in that area, and they had become by nineteen eighty five, the highest line of duty per capita death rate of any police force in the country. If you were a San Diego police officer in nineteen eighty five, you were more likely to die in the line of duty than in any other major city, fifteen times as

likely as Los Angeles. So that's kind of the setup behind the events that happened.

which comes into play in this incident. On this Sunday afternoon, Segon Penn took his younger brother, his teenage brother, and some of his teenage brothers friends to Balboa Park. That's the very big city, beautiful big city park in San Diego. While they were there, they bumped into three other friends and who joined them when they drove home at approximately

five forty five PM leaving the park. One thing is important to remember about this is while there is seven people in the truck, Segon Penn and six others other than his younger half brother and one other twenty one year old twenty two year old in the truck, Segan Penn had no did not know anyone else in this truck. So this was not a whole group of This was not Segon Penn and six of his best friends. These

others really didn't know him at all. Coming back from Balboa Park, he's on his way to drop some of the riders off. He's driving a white pickup truck. Five of the young black men are in the back, a black female and another young black man, and Segon Pen are in the cab of the truck, all of which is legal at that time, and they are making their way back into the southeast, into the community of Encanto when this incident occurs.

He's one of the five percenters they call him, that are aggressively pursue crime. They go where the crimes are and they they approach and make contact with anybody they think is or he thinks and that it may be involved in a crime. He's kind of aggressive on these stops. His method is to approach people pretty abruptly and try to rattle them and if they in order that they might slip up and give him a reason, a probable

cause for a search. On this day, he is responding to the report of a gang member with a gun in the Encanto area, about a half mile away from this where this incident eventually occurs. The report was a young man in the neighborhood had an altercation with three other young men and one of the three pulled a gun on him and threatened him, and then they went walked away in the direction of the inc to a recreation center. And so responding to the call was Donovan Jacobs,

backed up by another officer who was Thomas Riggs. He's also twenty seven years old and he's also an agent. But Tom Riggs is kind of a laid back cop, a guy who just kind of observes and is really also rising through the ranks, but really kind of a different method of policing. And along with Tom Riggs is a thirty three year old civilian ride along named Sarah Pina Ruiz. She is just a woman who is interested in possibly joining law enforcement. So the three of them

respond to this. They take a pretty routine report, and then they leave that scene and they begin heading eastbound on Brooklyn Avenue looking for a gang member with a gun. It's not an especially high alert call or it's this is not all that uncommon in the Encanto area, but that's what they're doing. They are now searching with Tom Riggs and the lead Donovan Jacobs, following, looking up and down side streets as they had east on Brooklyn Avenue.

Donovan Jacobs later said that he believed that one of the young men in the in the bed of the truck was wearing crip colors, which are traditionally blue but sometimes black, that he therefore thought that he might possibly be their suspect, and he radios Tom Riggs and says, I'm gonna need to turn around and pull over that truckload of crips.

And you also talk about next door where a person named Anthony Lovett and his girlfriend Angela mckibbon tell us about the proximity of these people and what they saw and how they reacted.

a very social atmosphere. Brooklyn Avenue is a dead end street right there. So there's a lot of children playing, people are out in their front yards, they're talking to neighbors. And then there are these two kind of storefront well a little bit more the churches at the corner. And we're only talking about, you know, eight hundred feet long

dead end portion of that road. And so there are in the end there will be forty at least forty, maybe forty to fifty eyewitnesses to some or all of this incident that occurs, of which our children fifteen years old or younger. So this is a very heavily witnessed incident. Segon, and as you mentioned, a few that come in very large role later on and witnessed. This was the family of Carlton Smith that was immediately adjacent to this driveway that the officers drove up to follow Segon Penn, and

he had six children. There was a large amount of people in his yard. He was kind of the center of activity that house at the end of that dirt driveway where they were dropping off. Some of their writers were indeed Anthony Lovett, who was a aspiring rapper, his girlfriend Angela mckibbon lived in any duplex, and this is you know, this is kind of a gritty neighborhood, but

a very socially active neighborhood. The others folks, there was members of the church, there was people who taught the Sunday school teacher, and others that were around that eventually witnessed. This played a very intimate role in the entire story.

out of his pickup truck. He parks up near the house, and the other members riding in the bed have already seen the police officers, and they start to kind of jump out of the back and the people in the front kind of get out of the cab. Donovan Jacobs follows with his lights on, not sirens, and parks about twenty feet short of segon Pen's truck and it is blocking his exit, blocking the exit from the driveway. At about twenty feet behind him, Tom Riggs pulls up in

his vehicle. Donovan, this is what universally agreed upon is Donovan Jacob's eggs his vehicle. He approaches Segon Pen, who's already out of his vehicle. He begins to ask him for his driver's license. Segon Pen appears to be surprised to find that a police officer is approaching him. He becomes what people generally described as blustered or discouraged, and he tries to hand over his entire wallet, and Donovan Jacob says, I cannot take your wallet. You're going to

have to take your license out. Segan Pen just keeps insisting you could take my wallet. Man, You know I got nothing in there. It's this little thin kind of nylon wallet. He's saying, you know, I got nothing to hide, and Jacobs keeps saying, I can't take your wallet. You need to you need to take a license out. And this goes on, you know, three or four times, with Pen getting more frustrated, Donovan Jacobs getting more stern with his insistent with his instructions to take the wallet out.

Penn becomes frustrated, throws his hands up in the air, turns around to walk away, says oh man. Jacobs reaches out, grabs him by his shoulder and pulls him back. Pen shrugs off Jacob's hand from his shoulder and says, don't touch me. Man. By all accounts and very few people

can figure it happens so fast. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but within seconds Donovan Jacobs had his baton out and then an altercation physical altercation occurred between Donovan Jacobs Segon Pen, in which Jacobs was swinging his baton at Pen, and Penn, being a essentially a black belt in taekwondo, is blocking almost all of the baton brows Biggs, who is speaking with the riders in the back of the truck on the other side of the truck, looks

up and sees that this has erupted into an altercation very quickly, by the way, this is all within you know, within half a minute of the first encounter. And he comes around and all he sees is that Donovan Jacobs is involved in an altercation where he is getting his baton knocked out. You know, he's not succeeding in handing this. This suspect Riggs pulls his baton and hits a Segon Pen several times in the back, and then this altercation continues from there.

It was agreed upon that Segon Pen was breaking no laws, that nobody in the truck had broken any laws, and they were not carrying anything you know, that would be illegal at the time, so this is all a pretty shocking development to all of them. The riders in the truck begin to circle in pretty close and saying stop, hey man, stop, and I think some of them are saying, you know, what are you doing? And Penn is also saying, hey man, stop, you know, you know what are you doing?

And but he's not giving up, quote giving up, He's not submitting. So then of course people from the neighborhood start to come up the driveway, They wander up, people in the church start to come up to look, people in houses start to come out and there, and soon as this physical confrontation with the officers throwing baton, blows, Pen blocking but also being struck, Pen striking back a

few times. He apparently like kind of open handed thrusts, but he knocks Donovan Jacobs down and Jacobs loses his baton at one point. So this moves down this dirt driveway with the crowd following and people yelling and people saying, you know, is this how you protect and serve? You know, what are you doing. You don't have to hit him like that. But also some people are trying to encourage segon Pen to submit, and then what happens is segon

Pen and Donovan Jacobs fall to the ground. This appears to be Donovan Jacobs, no longer with his baton, kind of tackles segon Pen. Pen says he kind of allowed him to go down because he figured that would end it. But segon Pen is on his back. Donovan Jacobs is straddling him. By Jacob's own admission, he punches him a few times because segon Pen is waving his hands above his head, saying stop stop, you know you got me, but he's not giving up. He's thrashing his hands around

because he's starting to panic. Tom Riggs is standing above him. Some say he was striking Pen hard with a baton, many others say he was sort of tapping at it at his arms to get him to drop his hands. Both were telling him to turn over. Some people in the crowd are telling Pen to turn over so he could be cuffed, but by then Penn is in a panic. He's lying on his back. He's got one officer on top of him. He's got another one by his head. Now, let me tell you a very crucial part that you

brought up, and that is the phone call. That is the nine to one one call that is put in by Angela mckibbon, and it is put the call is placed around the time that hen is on the ground struggling with the other with the officers. A neighbor had called had walked out of his house, Carlton Smith, and yelled to her and Anthony Lovett, who was standing in their doorway, astounded by what's happening, and he said said to them, call the police and make sure they send

black ones. Angela mckibbon is nineteen years old, I believe at the time, and she is absolutely unnerved. And she picks up this phone and she places a call. But when she places it, her first sentence is very calm. So when the nine woman officer says, what's your emergency, she says, I want to report some police brutality going on right in front of my house. The nine one one operator is not very receptive to this. She kind

of turns cold and says, what's the emergency? And this flusters Angela mckibbon, who hands the phone to Doria Jones, who was a young woman in the truck, the only woman in the truck. She says, when she comes on the phone to talk to the nine one one officers, there are gunshots erupt outside. She says, hurry up, they're shooting. Well, he says, hurry up, he's shooting him. And then the the of course nine one one officer operator becomes a little more serious about this call, a little more alarmed.

The call quickly degenerates into screaming and yelling of panicked, you know, hysterical panic people in the background and can't hear what's being said as the operator asks, you know, where are you located? Where are you located? And then the call goes dead because the cord and the phone got kicked out by somebody, and the people in the house had run at the sound of the first gunshots.

They were the people in the truck, other witnesses. Everybody ran for their lives the minute the first gunshot rang out, and nobody at that point really knew what the heck had happened and how that gunshot had had come about. Only a few could later testify as to how that came.

arrive at the police. But let's get back to Thomas Rigg is on the ground, Donovan Jacobs is on the ground at this crime scene. But where is this ride along, this person that was had an interest in being a police officer, where is she in this situation?

what's going on on the ground. The driveway between the dirt driveway again between Riggs's vehicle and the neighboring yard is only about fourteen feet, that's the amount of driveway. And then that driveway drops off a retaining wall about two to three feet into the neighboring yard. So that driveway is built up two to three feet and that's Carlton Smith's yard. So the ride along, Sarah Pinerluiz is

in the vehicle. Now what those who see when the shooting starts and they step out of the house and they look, what they see is Donovan Jacob's shot lying in the driveway. Thomas Riggs is lying motionless, face down in Carlton Smith's yard at the base of the retaining wall. The side window to the police vehicle is shattered. Sarah Pinerluiz is cowering inside having been shot, and Segon pen

is at first nowhere to be found. And this of course is absolutely disorienting and inexplicable to those who were just a minute ago had been witnessing what they had been witnessing. And then the next moment, the people up in the house, which is now most of the truck riders and I love it and mckibbon see Segon Penn step up from the retaining wall hold, holding a handgun

and walking towards them and towards his truck. What has happened, and is again mutually agreed upon, is at some point Segon Pen reached over took Donovan Jacob's gun out of his holster. Donovan Jacobs, being the officer straddling him, held it to his chest. Riggs sorry Jacob's chest. There was one gun shot struck Jacob's in the neck, wounding him but not killing him. The next three shots hit Tom Riggs, fired by Pen while Penn is still lying on his

back and Riggs is standing. Riggs is killed, and then stands and fires into the police car, striking Sarah Pinerruiz twice in the back and then the abdomen, and she is miraculously not injured that badly from those shots from being shot point blank with a thirty eight. So that is what happened. Now the question is why it happened, how it happened, and of course who's responsible and who's justified?

You know, who was Penn justified in those actions. I'll just punctuate one other thing on this is what Penn had done, is then he had thrown down the empty gun. He'd fired six shots in less than six seconds. And they figured that out by listening to him in the analyzing mckivvon's nine on one call, and they were not audible to the human ear, but they were impulses on that tape, so they could piece it together. He threw down his gun. He took Riggs his gun out of

his holster. Riggs was motionless, face down on the ground. He went up to his truck, found his truck was blocked, got into Donovan Jacob's running patrol car with the police lights overhead lights still going, and on his way out the driveway he ran over Donovan Jacobs with his own

patrol vehicle and he fled the scene. He went straight to his grandfather's house in a panic, and twenty minutes later he turned he and his grandfa his grandfather took him down, turned himself into Central Police headquarters in downtown San Diego. Now that may seem like I've given away this book, and certainly what it is astonishing, and there's a lot of tension in how the turns that this took and how it came to be that it was not Donovan Jacobs who got shot, but the other way around.

But I have to tell you, and I hope you agree, Dan, there is so much that is astonishing about this story that I'm really not giving away the most startling twists and turns that occur in this story and the subsequent trial followed.

perfectly attained. But what happened was you had two narratives that very quickly developed, I mean before the night was through. They certainly caused polarization. I do not want to diminish that at all. The most of the witnesses were saying that Segon Pen was being beaten and that he had

acted in self defense. The police, of course, say it was two police officers doing their job and being gunned down in the line of duty, as had all of them before them in the past decade, making their police force the you know, the deadliest one to be a part of the in thentry. And so those are the initial narratives that take hold. And of course you know you can tell, I'm sure you can guess who who

rallies behind each of those to begin with. And one of the things, just just briefly about San Diego again that makes it so interesting, there kind of was an old San Diego and a new San Diego. Traditionally, San Diego was a career military town, so many people who who eventually moved there first became exposed to San Diego on their way to you know, the Pacific theater in

World War Two, we're simply serving in the military. It was a major Pacific naval station, and then you know air force around that or airfields, and then the up in Camp Penalton the army. So that was the traditional power structure, conservative, white military, very much law and order.

The new San Diego was this huge influx of a younger, more highly edge educated in the formal sense, college educated, and ethically diverse group that we're moving in because of the huge academic institutions and the booming industries that were creating so much employment and high tech and things like that biotech. So you really had this tension in the

community there. And of course, you know, you had a lot of the new San Diego more sympathetic or tended to lean towards one narrative and then the conservative towards the other. So let me switch to the attorney situation very quickly. A prosecutor from the District Attorney's office is a sign that's Michael Carpenter. He's ex military, he's a very idealistic guy, believes in law and order, very fair

marathon runner, triathlete, accomplished prosecutor about thirteen, fourteen years. I believe on the DA's office, Thomas Penn, Sagon Pen's biological father, retains through a family recommendation a local attorney named Robert Slattin. Now Robert Slattin is entirely adequate private practitioner attorney. He has done criminal cases before, he has you know, represented his people, his clients well. But he is not a

remarkable attorney. He is considered kind of you know, middle of the pack, not charismatic in or especially creative in the courtroom. But Thomas Penn, Robert Slattin, sees this is quickly shaping up to be probably the biggest trial in San Diego history. He is he drops everything to take it. Thomas Penn is his advocate. But there are people who are whispering in Segon Penn's ear, in the Penn family's ear, and in the attorney's ear who eventually takes over this

case that they really have to get another attorney. They are telling Segan Penn exactly who that is Atorney needs to be if he ever hopes to lock the streets free again.

had been molesting their teenage daughter for years. She of course was arrested. She had even given plans to find out where where the husband was. Mil Silverman defended her and eventually uncovered and showed the jury that she had done this while under hypnotic suggestion by a kind of shady character around her who had been hypnotizing her and her daughter, suggested to her that she go and have him killed. The jury believed it and found her not guilty.

There was another one where Milt Silverman had a client who a young man and a little bit older woman went up a canyon to smoke some pot and do who knows what, and ended up with the young man killing the woman by hitting her in the head with a rock. Segon Penn defended the young man Clifford Stone and said that Clifford Stone was homosexual in the terminology of the time, the technical terminology, which was true, and that he was acting in self defense because it was

the woman that was raping him. Of course, that raises a lot of questions, and mil Silverman brought in experts and in that case Clifford Stone got an involuntary manslaughter, a manslaughter conviction and only eight years. And it goes on and on. I mean, there are just incredible moments within his cases and they are all against their kind of against all odds cases. And his investigative skills are incredible. I mean, he was always finding things at crime scenes

that the police had missed. He was always and he was very charismatic in the courtroom. You know, he would if a witness on the stand said this had happened this way, in this way and this way, he would say, please step down, and he'd hand him a police baton, or he'd hand him a gun or whatever and he'd say show us and he'd engage in role playing with the witnesses or even and you know, so he would be he's very physical, he's but you know, he can

be called theatrical. But he was also very highly respected even by the people he went up against. Nobody ever accused Milt Silverman of being unethical, he thought, but he was known for his preparedness, he was known for his investigative skill, and he was a master communicator in the courtroom. That's what he was doing, is he was really driving home his point with the whole visual aspect rather than just having people talk on the stand. And so that's

Milt Silverman, and that's the person. There's four very different people particularly who have been telling Segon Penn and the Penn family that they need to get Milt Silverman and get rid of Bob Slatin.

gave Segon pen a chance. I mean, yes, the prosecution has the burden of proof, but when you shoot two police officers and a thirty three year old housewife, you've got some explaining to do. You know, for much of San Diego, let's say, outside the southeast, they could not conceive of any scenario in which such an act would be justified. But if those who lived in the southeast could,

you know, they were wary of it too. They weren't, you know, they weren't completely one sided, but they they thought. You know, there are times when it is conceivable that a young black man might have to resort to that to defend himself. It's just two ways of looking at the world to life experiences. So it's rather astonishing how the moment that Milt Silverman takes over this case. They were one day into jury selection in this trial, which is pretty much the point of no return unless there's

something specially extraordinary happens. The judge gets passed a note, and the note is a handwritten note from Segon Penn's mother, who is more involved in Segon Penn's life a lot more than Thomas Penn, his biological father. They'd been divorced at age two, and Thomas Penn did not pay a huge role in Segon Penn's life. She said, I have been trying to get a note to you, and we have been trying. Segon wants Silverman to be his attorney. He does not want Bob Slattin, but that my ex husband,

Thomas Penn, has been blocking this. I gave a letter to the court clerk yesterday. It got given to Robert Slattin, who gave it to Thomas Penn, and uh, you know, we want this stopped and we want Milt Silverman. And so the judge says, WHOA Okay, tells the clerk you go out and find Milt Silverman and get him in

here now. And there's this very dramatic moment when uh, you know, of course they closed the courtroom and all the press, reporters and the spectators are all out in that hallway and waiting, not knowing what's going out on inside. It's pretty routine that court. You know, courts get stopped for all things all the time. Trials get stop, and all of a sudden, coming down the hall is this lone figure striding down the long marble hallway. And by

now Milt Silverman is well known in the press. He's not a celebrity lawyer, because they didn't have any in San Diego. He's not an f lee bailey. He's not somebody that you know, people would immediately see but there. But the reporters covering the courthouse know ex exactly who it is, and they just can't believe it, and they're so astonished they just step aside. Silverman swings open the courtroom door and walks inside without them ever even asking

him what he's doing there. The judge, pretty quickly, to the protests of the prosecutor, picks Latin off the case and puts on Milt Silverman and says, you got three months to prepare for this trial.

have as effective jury selection as possible. Tell us what they're aiming for in that jury selection and some of the things that they're employing to take on this case that is, to say, the least an incredible uphill challenge.

of his time. He had a public opinion poll that showed that the greatest determining factor in how someone would lean in the case certainly was race, but almost more important and more interesting is that it was age. They said, you know well. First of all, the person who did the poll, he asked him, what are my chances of winning this? And the guy says none. He said, well, if I was, what would I need? And he's told him to get young ethnically mixed jurors, try to get

no one over the age of forty. And then pat Silverman also used a handwriting expert, so she'd take the uh, she'd take the jury questionnaires and go back and read them and come back and say, this person doesn't like men, this person won't change her mind to this person, you know, forget about this guy now, this person too good. And then also his wife, Maria, who you know his Maria and Milt Silverman were inseparable. I mean they were devoted

and adored each other. She would be in the she tended every day of all of his trials, and she would he'd look over to her after a juror is questioned and she would just slowly shake her head or maybe give him a little nod look because she he considered her to be the most intuitive person he'd ever met in terms of judging people on short notice. And in the end, Milton Silverman had a jury that skewed very young. I think five of them were in their twenties.

They weren't, you know, there was two black jurors to

black women. But again San Diego is only six percent, so it wasn't like he was going to get a lot and the jury, you know, really skewed young, but it matched the demographic of San Diego at the time, you know, to the credit of both attorneys, and I think especially my Carpenter, my Carpenter was also dedicated not to you know, he did not challenge you know, Mike Carpenter wanted this jury to reflect community and he never wanted although it would be a defense thing, he wanted

to move to ask for a relocation of a trial. But neither Silverman nor Carpenter wanted to move that trial out of downtown San Diego. They wanted to be tried in the community and they both felt that was important. And so that was the jury selection process.

license when requested. That's you know, Mike Carpenter says, all he had to do to give his license, and none of this happens. Don Penn turned and walked away. Well, it's not legal to turn and walk away when you are detained by an officer or engaged by an officer. And you know, why did Penn walk away? Why didn't he submit when they tried to put him under arrest.

All he had to do was put go under arrest, and then you know White obviously Penn then took you know, for Carpenter, you know, Penn grabbed a gun, shot one person, shot it, killed another with three shots, and shot a thirty three year old woman. Got in the car and drove over the wounded officer. You know, I don't think I need to explain much more. You know, of course he's going to make his case around that, but you know,

let's not complicate this, folks. Milton Silverman's case was that none of this would have happened if it were not for Donovan Jacobs. Donovan Jacobs has a history of aggression, and as Silvermen attempted to prove and made a very big part of his defense was that, in his opinion, Donovan Jacobs had a bad history with young black men

and violence and aggression. He says that Donovan Jacobs was overly aggressive and approaching Segon Pen, that he pulled out his baton and began striking Segon Pen and used excessive force. He really put all this on Pen. He his his mills. Silverman's investigator, Bob McDaniel said to him, well, do you want me to look in some of the background on Rigs and you know, build up some stuff on him. Silverman said, Bob, there can only there can only be

one villain in this story. So he was going right after Donovan Jacobs and you know, saying this is Jacob's fault, not Penn's fault, Donovan Jake. None of this would have happened if it wasn't for Donovan Jacobs. And once it began, uh Segon, Penn had every reason to believe his life was in danger and therefore justified in his actions. You know, he basically said, the young man was in a panic. He believed he was going to be killed. He believed

he was going to be killed by those officers. He believed he was going to be killed by the officers who were flooding into the scene in response to the you know, the officer down call, you know, the sirens coming in. Of course, it's a very complex case in which they have to go step by step through this whole encounter, and at any one point, if Milt Silverman's theory is not believed by jury, the whole thing breaks down.

It becomes an incredibly dramatic trial that goes on for three three months, with so many surprises and so many I mean, there's heroic behavior, there's bad behavior in the courtroom. They're you know, from witnesses, you know, Frankly on both sides accuse a you know, Carpenter and Silvermen are cordial in the courtroom up until they're not, and then it gets gets pretty They're always they always observe court decorum,

but professionals. But it got very acrimonious. You know, I could focus on a few key parts, but to try to tell this whole this whole trial is too much and I don't want to take all of it away. But one thing I'll just bring up is that within it, so, Donovan Jacobs was horrendously injured. I mean he'd been shot in the neck and run over, you know, temporarily paralyzed. He was anesthetized with a tracheal tubin for four days, and he finally gets interviewed four days later by a

San Diego police detective. He says things that will universally be agreed upon later on to not be true, and Donovan Jacob says, well, it's because I just got run over by a car. I'm just it's my memory is playing tricks on me. If I'm wrong, My memory is playing tricks on me. But it immediately he becomes a very problematic character in this. He becomes a problematic witness because when he said this on the first interview by the detective, it was tape recorded and so there was

no going back if indeed he'd wanted to. Again, things are contested. I'm not drawing a conclusion, but there was a lot of fought over whether Donovan Jacobs was lying or whether Donovan Jacobs had a memory organic you know, memory problems from from the traumatic experience and physical trauma. So that's just one of the things that went in. But very complex and methodical and detailed trial that followed, and incredibly.

the courtroom. He's on the floor employing the defense partner the prosecutor to try to recreate the situation. In fact, there is all kinds of efforts for the jury to understand exactly what happened according to the witnesses, so that they can again relay their perspective narratives to the to the jury. So let's let's talk about what happens with this miracle that he's looking for, and we're talking about the verdict is being in. The jury deliberates and then has a verdict. Tell us about this.

He his The defense content is that the gun went off because Riggs kicked the gun the pen in a panic, held it, cocked it and even says he cocked it, held it to Jacob's and Riggs kicked it. Well, why then shoot Rigs? Well, Riggs was going for his gun, says the defense, And then there's this Riggs is struck three times the first of which a is they determine or allege went through the bottom of his boot and

then hit him in the chest. Well, Silverman is saying, that shows that his foot was up in the air and he was trying to kick him the gun a second time. And then the third one is why did he jump up and shoot a woman in civilian clothing point and blank through the side window. And he said, there was glare in the window. I couldn't see in the window. All I saw was movement, and I thought it was someone inside, another police officer about to shoot me.

So there is so much this centers on each of those things, and it is astonishing, astonishing the twists and turns that are at each of those moments and what gets brought in and you know, but that is really kind of at the core of the Carl and the rest of it is just is him going after Donovan Jacobs and Donovan Jacob's history and other things. And of course the prosecutor's making a good case. My Carpenter's no, you know, he's no pushover. A very different breedy cat,

but he's he's no pushover. I'll switch now to what you're speaking of, and and I believe, And that's that's what happens. You know, at the end, after the jury retires to deliberations, there are some astonishing things that happen just when you think you know you've gotten you know, just when you think you can catch your breath on this thing. One is that there's an early conviction comes in.

I suppose I should not give too much of this away, but there's a but really a moment when they pull the jury that's that's you just absolutely do not see. And it throws that initial conviction and it involves one of the jurors was pregnant. One of the African American female jurors is pregnant, and two weeks into our weekend or less into deliberations had to go in the hospital to have a baby. And so the judge said, well,

what have you guys decided so far? And they said, we've decided this one count and it included a conviction on a lesser charge, which was a huge news story, Penn. You know, they've signed some responsibility for this. It did

not portend well for the defense. And then you have this miraculous moment where everything changes with that, and then you have the prosecutor beginning a secret investigation, not illegal, but secret investigation into one of the jurors who he believes is a lone wolf juror that he's got on his hands, a juror who already made up her mind before this trial started and is just simply going to hang the whole jury and is never going to vote

for conviction. And the reason why they're so worried about in the district attorney that in the District Attorney's office had just happened in a high profile case in which the mayor San Diego has had overwhelming evidence against him and bribery and campaign contributions and serious felonies, and every single count got hung eleven to one by juror who proudly said afterwards, I thought it was a political witch hunt, and you know so they were very well. Of course.

That is just absolutely sends Milt Silverman over the edge when they find out about it. They find out about it because somebody at her work says, Hey, there's a bunch of guys from the DA down here and interviewing this jurors coworkers to ask him what she's ever said

about this. It just blows up. I mean, Milt Silverman alleges misconduct to very dramatic moments, and then after just when that gets calmed down, this really incredible document surfaces, and that is a counseling session with Segon Penn while he was in the police Academy seven eight years earlier. He'sickly being reprimanded for his viewpoint and an exercise that went on in one of the classes that was about

dignity and respect for the citizen. They were role playing and showing some police officers who were incredibly disrespectful to either gay people or other scenarios. Donovan Jacob said, and this is all recorded and on it was recorded and then put on a transcript. The transcripts survives saying I think that's okay because it got the job done. You know, look, if it's not, he'd say, you know, I I wouldn't do it. Maybe I wouldn't, but if I had to,

I'd do it. You know, professional profanity. Well, would you use racial slurs? No, I mean I personally I wouldn't, but I could see where, you know, if it prevented violence or something, Yeah, I mean you know it could, because sometimes you got to do what you know to

get things done, and they reprimand him. They come down on him heavy, and it is a miracle that he survived that and was allowed to join the force because they told him you're going to be a danger to yourself, to your partner, and to the department and the citizens of San Diego. And all of this starts and happens

after the juries and deliberation. Well, Milton Silverman's just wants to stop this deliberation enter this document in because it's he sees it as you know, backing up everything he said about Donovan Jacobs for three months, you know, and so it's just a complete upheaval of the deliberations. But in the end, this turned out to be a very

thoughtful and patient and methodical jury. They really turned out to be people who, no matter how anyone feels about their verdicts, they were people who tried to do the right thing and that and their story is rather phenomenal too.

the acrimonious yelling had to move the media away. So, you know, all the fighting over this then the you know, the the very quickly the jury mute need over this, this sequestration, especially the Vernel Hardy, the female juror who had had the baby. The judge said, well, we'll let you go home and see your infant for an hour, and then you got to go to the hotel and you know, you guys aren't allowed to call people and

you are allowed to watch TV. And she had a sixteen day old infant and she just fell apart, I mean, understandably tried to make a go of it, and eventually he had to pull the sequestration on it. And of course there was just tremendous battles and name call well not name calling because they were very professional, but acrimonio and accusations between the two attorneys. And the first trial did end up with it did not settle all the charges. The jury was hung on a lot of mostly lesser

but not unimportant. I mean, these are manslaughter charges. The attempted murder of Sarah Pinarruiz was still in play, you know, enough that still could send Segon Penn quitted of some of the major, more serious ones. But he has tried again in his second trial on charges that could still send him away for the rest of his life.

San Diego. And he kind of went to war with the editorial writer at the San Diego Union newspaper, which was the old school conservative paper controlled by some old school journalists who essentially you know, said, you know, in an editorial said Segon four days after he was the incident, said, you know, Segon Penn is clearly the problem here, not

the police. And he took them on head on. Well, Michael Tuck also was one of the people who had gone to the Penn family, said you know, I know I shouldn't be doing this as a journalist, but I got to tell you you need no silverman. But also interestingly, as Tuck came into contact early on, and it's a little hard to it's a little difficult to figure out exactly how this connection got made. But with a retired San Diego Police Department lieutenant who had very strong feelings

about Donovan Jacobs. He felt that Donovan Jacobs had was successive force, that he made arrests that were bogus, that he pulled people over for no reason, and that he was violent towards especially black suspects or even black citizens or and that he had tried to block him from being put on the SWAT team by telling the commanders, Hey, you know this, this guy. You can't get near this guy. This this Litenan's name is Doyle Wheeler. But Doyle Wheeler is a in some ways problematic but also a very

interesting guy. He was the youngest person ever to be named a lieutenant in the department's history. He had he was a Vietnam veteran with medals. He was highly decorated at the police department all accounts. An incredibly smart guy, but an incredibly troubled guy. You know, in addition to his Vietnam War record, and you know, of course terrible experiences and reconmissions there and things. He was part of

some some terrible things at San Diego Police Department. You know, helplessly watching two offs bleed out on a crime scene because they couldn't get to him under fire, the Brenda Spencer shooting, which was really one of the first notable school shootings, and that's the young woman who shot into the schoolyard, hitting killing faculty members and then said famously why she did it because she I don't like Mondays, which is what that song at the time came from.

And then you know, the PSA plane crash was a horrific scene, and anyways, other things that were just traumatic, and the McDonald's massacre, which was the first really well, it was the largest mass shooting in American history at that point, twenty one people killed at a McDonald's in San Diego, and he was right in the thick of it. So he had been medically discharged for basically post traumatic

what we call post traumatic stress disorder these days. He was doubted by the prosecutor, who went after him very hard. So let me back up a second. Eventually, Doyle Wheeler testified in the trial and said all of this about

Donovan Jacobs. And it was rather moment because even though the defense had heard these rumors, people within the police department were telling them Donovan Jacobs they called him a you know what, magnet meaning meaning he tracted trouble and people didn't like him, they said, because some people didn't like him because he got him in trouble on scenes that never should have turned violent, and then suddenly they

have to back him up and things. So they were hearing all this, but nobody on the police force would step up and testify. They just and the only one who did was Doyle Wheeler, who at that point was retired, and he said, you know, this is Donovan Jacobs and he didn't say my opinion, but obviously it's what he alleges. And then the defense attorney, i mean the prosecutor of course,

my Carpenter went at him very hard. And it is one of those incredible moments in a trial where you know, it is it is sad, it is heartbreaking, it is shocking, you know, Doyle Wheeler going up there and what he goes through on the stand, and he remains one of the most controver figures in that trial. And he also testified in the second trial. The second trial had some developments that he just didn't see in the first trial.

Much of it was the same, of course, they were stating their same cases, but there were several new developments that came in that were I know, I used the word astonishing and shocking and incredible, but they really are. I've just never seen them before. I've never seen even

heard about a trial like this before. This is a trial that Flee Bailey called, well, there's two trials, but Flee Bailey was referring to the first one as the real trial of the century, and he thought Milt Silverman was one of the best defense attorneys and said, so the best defense attorneys in the history of this country.

He called them. Last. Carpenter did second trial, he called them first Carpenter knew he needed to shake up his thing, or he couldn't do the same case, or he had ended up with the same result. There are yeah, and you know, of course the testimony of Donovan Jacobs and

Sarah pinilrowize are very dramatic moments. Second trial, especially Donovan Jacobs had prepped for twenty hours with the prosecution again completely acceptable, not on ethical at all, and Silverman had cross examined him on the stand for five days now with the Academy transcript saying, look what you said in nineteen seventy eight, and look at all the things you told the detective that are not true. You know, we

know didn't happen, and why are you lying? And you know, and then at the very end there's kind of this classic moment when at the very end Silverman says, how long did you how long did you tram or you know, how long did you practice for this testimony? He said twenty and he said, he said, a long time, mostly preparing for your cross examination. He says, well, I hope I didn't disappoint you. Donovan Jacob says, mister Silverman, you have met my every expectation and it's really again a

dramatic moment. Cryle too has some very interesting differences, and one is that when Segon Penn turned himself in, he made three statements to police. Two of them were simply the officer that were looking over him, you know, guarding him. He was handcuffed to a chair in a lieutenant's office and while they waited for the homicide detectives to come down and put him under miranda and interview him, Penn

was so hyped up that he was just babbling. He was just just spewing out information, mostly talking about all the things in his life. And he was you know, I mean, I'm involved in Buddhism. I mean it really sounds like and they believe pretty quickly this this young man has some emotional problems. He's got some mental illness issues, was their key takeaway. But they just put up, they say, they just put a tip recorder in front of him and recorded what he had to say, all sponted. He

never asked him a question, never put him under miranda. Well, that happened twice, and then he was put under miranda and made a third statement. All of them were recorded, and when he does talk about the incident. He's very consistent, he's very focused, whereas before he's all non sequiturs all over the place and really sounds nutty when he's talking those unless Mills, the only person who could put those

tapes into the trial was the prosecution. Otherwise, if Milton Silverman did it, he would then have to put Segon Penn on the stand. He thought from the beginning that Segon Pen would be a terrible witness, that he would just get torn apart on the stand. He was a fragile young man. He was idealistic. He's talked too much, you know, he and he was certainly, as became apparent later, suffering some some you know, the emergence of some significant

mental illness. So the prosecutor, when you listen to these tapes, there's one thing that comes across and the jurors said this is that Pen sounds sincere. He sounds like he's just rambling. It sounds like, you know, these have these tay recordings are within hours, someone within one hour of the incident, and he appears to be he sounds believable. You know, he doesn't sound like a guy concocting a story and you know, and so Carpenter didn't play him

the first thing. He said, I don't want the jury hearing Segon Penn's version of events unless you're going to put him on the stand. Shockingly, Carpenter introduces all three tapes into the second Early in the second trial, Bill Silveran cannot believe it, and he turned to his investigator. He said, we just won the We just won this trial. And again more dramatic moments while these were played. They're played on the precisely on the two year anniversary of

the incident itself. The second thing that was very dramatic and shocking, not to reuse my adjectives here, but was the fact that now this time around, several other police officers took the stand and told of stories where they were accusing Donovan Jacobs of some pretty blatant and severe acts of racism, mistreatment of young black men, excessive use of force, getting them into trouble, dragging them in, you know, into difficult situations, always going rogue, you know, in these

in two cases were well in all cases were officers who did not want to testify because they said, we don't want to break the quote code of silence. We know what happens to snitches, as one said, and I don't want to be a snitch and know they were. What they were fearing was retaliation against them forever testifying against a police officer and violating you know, the quote code of silence, where you never one officer never says, never turns another officer in, or certainly never says goes

against them outside the department and off an inside. They protect each other, you know, protect your other officer at all costs, several of them do. At the last minute of the trial. Of course, Mike Carpenter mounts the defense against them. They are not perfect witnesses, but they certainly made an impression on the jury.

wanted to become a police officer. She continued her pursuit to become a police officer after this happened, and mil Silverman said, well, you know, she's siding with the cops and she's saying stuff. And he spent much time saying this. You know what you're saying, couldn't you couldn't possibly have seen it. You know, you didn't have that kind of

angle where you were sitting in the car. You couldn't have seen Segon Penn look at that gun because you know he would have been shielded by don By, you know, Jacobs's backs straddling him and things like that. Well, at the very very end of the trial, he calls in a woman who works at the Navy Housing office. Sarah Pinnerluiz is married to a young naval not officer, a young sailor, naval sailor on an aircraft carrier, and after this she was she she lived two blocks away from

the this incident happened. And the thing about Sarah Pinluiz is that you know, Sarah Pinnerluiz. There's a lot of accusations about what Donovan Jacobs had yelled racial slurs, and very controversy about whether that had happened or not. And at one point she gets asked, did you hear him

say racial slurs? And and she says no, And he says, well, well, you know, there's a dialogue there that includes some racial slurs that I want to say now, but I do mention them in the book because they're part of the story. And she says, I was married to a black man, I have two black children. I think I would have remembered that she lived in that neighborhood, which is a

mostly black neighborhood. But when she came back after she got out of the hospital, she was very unwelcome, and so the Navy the police asked that she be the Navy finder in new housing. So she went down to the housing office, spoke with some people there, and looked at some new housing outside of that neighborhood, and at the very end sat with the manager of that department,

African American woman named Carolyn Cherry. No Silverman calls in Carolyn Cherry at the end and says and Carolyn Cherry says, yes, I was talking to her and she told me it all happened so fast, she didn't see any of it. And then several other things, you know, she said that she wanted to run but she couldn't because she thought and would shoot her, and some other things, but mostly the most importantly, she alleges that Sarah Peneruice told her

I didn't see a thing. And so they bring Sarah pa Ruiz in and she says, no, I never said that, And mil Silverman says, well, did you say this? Did you say this? Did you say this? Did you say this less incriminating things, She says, no, I never said that, I'm sure, and then Milt Silvering brings Derek. Carolyn Cherry back reveals that she recorded this conversation, that she was playing a tape at her desk, and when Sarah Piniluiz

came in, she hit the record button and recorded it. However, Carolyn Cherry's tape does not include Sarah Pinluiz ever saying I didn't see anything that happened so fast. She said, she said that just before I pushed the button. In fact, that's what caused me to push the button. The problem was for Sarah Pinerluise and the prosecution was that she is on tape saying a bunch of things that she

told the day before. Told mil Silverman on the stand denied she had said, and again they're not incriminating things, but she said I never told her that. I never told her that. I'm sure I never told her that, and then she's on tape, so it damages her credibility. Of course, my carpet to the prosecutor is absolutely livid. He had asked Cherry the first time around, did you record this? Or he said did you document this? And she says, well, I wrote it down. She hasn't mentioned

that she taped it. And he's just like he said, I've been sandbagged here, he told the judge. He said, this is classic sandbagging. I've been sandbagged by Mills Silverman. You know, this is ridiculous. This woman has no credibility. And I must say that it played up very much more in the media than it probably than the impact it might have had on the jurors, who probably didn't know what to make of it. And that's kind of

what the handful that I interviewed said. But they called it Silverman's cherry bomb, and it happened on the last day of the trial, and it was it was kind of a media sensation, and you know, again to remind or to point out, this was a huge media sensation, really foreshadowing or not or you know, before sensational trial before and before other sensational trials, you know, became a pastime for Americans. City of San Diego was just absolutely glued to this. It was not it's not broadcast, but

it was. But they had, you know, then news clips and you know, overflow crowds trying to get in and everything like that. So that was a very that was a very interesting and unusual moment in the trial.

I interviewed her. She's a very thoughtful, intelligent person. Of course, felt justice had not been served in that no one eventually ever paid the price for her husband being gunned down. And you know, officers were bitter about it, but they the city mostly accepted it. The verdicts. At least they kept calm and they tried to you know, move on

and things like that. But of course it's it's very again dramatic when these when these verdicts come in, I mean, they were shocking, you know, the the accolades to mil silveran our immediate. That's when Flee Bailey is quoted in the paper saying, I think he's one of the best attorneys in the history of this country. And the jurors are, you know, speak out. They actually say quite a lot afterwards, and they say, you know, this was true of the first year. They said, they said, you know what, we

have to go by the letter of the law. They took their jury instructions seriously, you know, some of them said, hey, we might have thought Segon Penn bore some responsibility and there was a major you know, there was a charge of shooting Sarah pen Ruez that was never resolved a lesser charge. But so they some you know, they felt some responsibility there, but this just didn't meet the definition. And plus they clearly said Donovan Jacobs caused this. This

was their opinion. It never would have happened if it wasn't for Donovan Jacobs. So the city is kind of starts to you know, it seems like people are being are going to observe caution and patience and you know, just just move on and accept and try to do better the next time. And that's when this whole thing with well a lot that happens after the second trial. Judge Lester really really shocks everyone. And he was the interesting guy. He was a very well respected young judge.

Had a funny thing about him as he could write. He was amdextress and could and would take notes with both hands. Now some say he would could write with both hands at the same time. He said that's not true and it doesn't sound true, but he would write with the left hand on the left side of the paper and the right hand on the right side of the paper, and it made for very interesting There's a few video clips and you can see him doing it

in the background. It's really interesting to watch, ye. But and he was a guy who he was close to the Indian try and the Indian nations in his area, the ring Calon Indians and represented them robono and sweated in the lodges with them, and had the nickname Golden Eagle because he was part Iroquois. A really interesting guy.

After the end of the second trial, about four days later, he gives an interview with the La Times, and he offers his opinion that the police had that police officers had covered things up, that they had multiple officers had either lied on the stand or had withheld information that the San Diego Police Department. He did not accuse the prosecutors of anything. He accused the police department, the people who took the stand of not being forthright. He thought

that he noted a few specific things. The academy transcript, which had been actually discovered eight months earlier and before the first trial and thrown in a drawer and did not surface until jury had started deliberating. He said, you know, he accused them of hiding that and withholding evidence. And it's a very shocking thing for a judge to say. I mean, he said, he said, I've never in my life seen anything like this. He said, it was incredible

to me. The district attorney and the police chief were livid,

but they didn't have anything. They couldn't really do anything under these accusations from a you know, a respected superior court judge, and they had to refer the whole matter over to the California Attorney General's office to investigate the conduct of San Diego Police Department, including the conduct of the two officers involved, who Judge Morgan Lester said, had used to quote a nightstick justice and said that they had used excessive use of force and that it was

a power thing. And you know, there was no point for Donovan Jacobs to have done this, to have pulled his baton. What did it matter if the wallet, if the licensees out of the wallet, you know, And so these were serious charges and it went to the Attorney general to investigate. Of course, the Attorney general is only investigating whether there's enough evidence to prosecute. That is a lengthy that's a lengthy process and stretches on through for

months after the trial. But in the process they interview they bring mill Selverman brings in Don Sorry Segon Penn for an interview with the Attorney General. Now this is after the second trial. Segon Pen is free. He's not being tried again. They've declared they're not going to try any of those minor, minor, lesser charges that are left over. And Sigon Penn is so incoherent and erratic and clearly

suffering from some significant emotional and psychological problems. He's erratic, he's all over the place, He's acting things out so vigorously they have to tell him to stop. He's now turned to Christianity, so Silverman has to keep taking him out and train with him to calm him down. And in the end they say, you know, and it's it is no doubt true that they could The attorney Gnawal says, we never could have used any of this in a trial, so you know, whatever he has to say about what

happened that day, we can't use it all. And then they cited that a lot of the witnesses had varying counts, which was problematic, and in the end, they chose to not prosecute anyone, although they said, we believe that you know, him and Jacobs used excessive force, and we believe that this lieutenant was not truthful on the craft on the stand, and we believe that you know that this academy document

was hidden on purpose, and blah blah blah. So they said, you know, no, we think there was a lot of bad stuff going on here, but we don't think we have enough to prosecute any of it. A media person asked the head prosecuted for the Attorney General's office, well, in the fifty investigations you've done of police officers or police organizations, how many have you prosecuted under this attorney general? And he says, he says, we have not prosecuted any So of course that casts a big shadow on that.

But that old thing with the Morgan, the Morgan Lester incident episode is really something that's just you just absolutely don't see.

to infer anything from your actions. And he literally sat just staring straight ahead during the trial, and to the point that people conject, you know that there was a speculation that he was on, that he'd been drugged so he wouldn't and all kinds of things, but it was simply, you know, he's a terrified young man. He's got these issues, and he's his life is on the line, and he's got a defensi attorney who told him what to do. And now he did that through two trials, even the

most dramatic moments and even the humorous moments. He would sit there like he'd never heard it. Yeah, afterwards when he's because he was out. He was free on the second trial. His bail had been two hundred and fifty thousand, which that family could never never get, and it was reduced to twenty five thousand, and that was met by a benefactor in the society out there, and he was free for the second trial. You asked me that question

about an hour ago, but here's the answer. But after that verdicts, he was rushed out of the hurried out of the courtroom by some bodyguards and put in a car and taken to their office, away from the media, away from anybody who might want to harm him. And what he did was he walked to a big picture window overlooking golf course. They got him a soda, and he sat in the chair, and all of a sudden, he just assumed that exact same position for hours, just

staring out at the golf course. And there's kind of this realization that there's never going to be anything resembling freedom for this young man, no matter what the verdicts are.

troubled relationship. You say that he suffered from PTSD, but his relationship that he felt was most important, and the relationship with his child, Brittany grated incredible problems for him, and he had many encounters with the law over that relationship and his anger and his temper, didn't.

a telephone operator at that placed. One of his calls from prison when he was released after his first trial. They quickly fell into a very intense relationship. And you know, Segon Pennin really hadn't had any of that those before in his life. He's kind of a shy guy. He's very you know, he's a strikingly handsome young man, but he's always shy, you know, And he'd never had a serious relationship before. And she very soon got pregnant. And then it was only a couple months after the second

trial that they had the baby, Brittany. But by then Segon had been displaying all kinds of volatile behavior, erratic behavior, and even though you know, you know again he's got these issues that some thought were schizophrenia Layton schizophrenia, but could marry very well have been bipolar, because they certainly resemble those kind of actions like severe bipolar. Two months after Brittany is born, Donna leaves and takes Brittany with her.

Segon is allowed to see his daughter. He's, by all accounts, a capable father, adores her, and but just cannot get over Donna arcs. He you know, he shows up at the house, he kicks in the door, he threatens the new boyfriend, He lights, the new boyfriend's the car on fire. He does hit Brittany and I'm sorry. It never hits Brittany Donna. You know, she files restraining orders. He's astonishingly

he's not arrested because nobody said nobody. All of them say, oh no, we don't want to press charges, you know, they they know how he's struggling. And it just gets worse and worse and worse at years go by, you know, which makes up small part but the end of the the book, because there is a lot of things that happened after that second trial, and I follow Segon Penn and Donovan Jacobs as the years kind of go on. But within a few years, uh, Segon Penn has been

stripped of his parental rights. He's a he's been served a couple terms for you know, prison terms or jail jail terms for you know, domestic disturbance or accusations by you know, by women for hitting for hitting them and things like that. And he's his behaviors just across the board, erratic and bizarre. So he so when he finally they

he is script of his parental rights. Donna's husband, who she subsequently married, raises Brittany, and Brittany really does not ever know who her father is until only relatively recently. It really is the thing that sends him on his final downward spiral. He just and people say he's never even you know, the tremendous damage done by his what he went through in the incident and the trials. You know, it was even more so almost when he was blocked

from ever seeing Brittany again. He never saw again. It really he then spiraled over years and became a very sad and tragic pers you know individual and historians very baddly and very tragically for him. And on the other hand, Donovan Jacobs kind of you know, he goes back to the police force. He's very successful. I mean he was. He's partially paralyzed in one arm and you know, he's very injured. It ended his his career that the only career he'd ever wanted would just be a you know,

an officer, detective and all that. And he then is more doing desk stuff. But he's very successful in what he does. He gets a very good pension when he does decide to retire four years later, he becomes an attorney. He publishes two books on a you know, small public minor published books on effective street policing have some kind of curious parts to it. But he's a very very ambitious, incredibly intelligent guy. He really is, I don't know, incredibly

very intelligent guy. Let's just say that, you know, and by all accounts and by all evidence, you know, he kind of no doubt there's damage from this. I mean, he saw his partner die, no matter who might have been to blame. You know, he's terribly injured. So I'm not diminishing what he went through, but he generally succeeds. There is kind of a feeling among some that, you know, this is the way it happens. You know, this guy like Segan Penn just he's going to lose out and

the guy like Donovan Jacobs is going to succeed. Just to punctuate here that I took no sides in this book, I have no agenda. I didn't want to extreme length to be very fair, you know, and balanced, and tell the whole story and completely leave nothing out that might have spoke well or ill of either side. So but you know, there is kind of that feeling and that the losers, the people who are disadvantaged in this world

continue and others go on. But that's a matter of you know, obviously, perspective on a story like this.

For those that might want to take a look at this book and other books, could you tell us about your website and you do any social media.

even remember. I think it's Peter dash Hulahan. But if you put my name in you it'll pop up.