RAMPAGE-Lee Mellor

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They embarked on homicidal rampages that shook their nation to the core. Leegh Meller has gathered more than twenty five of Canada's most lethal spree killers into a single work. Rampage details their grisly crimes, delves into their twisted psyches, and dissects their motivations To answer the question every true crime lover yearns to know why. If you think serial

killers are dangerous, prepare for something even deadlier. The book that we're featuring this evening is Rampage, with my special guests, journalist and author and publisher Lee Miller. Welcome back to the program. Thank you for agreeing to this interview.

focus of Rampage. We talk about multiple murderers. We alluded to that in the introduction, So tell us about the focus of Rampage, why you wanted to do this project, and what is the focus of this project in the book Rampage.

There isn't really anything on mass murderers in Canada the same kind of deal as serial murderers or spree killers, sorry, and so I decided it probably wouldn't be interesting to do an exhaustive book of mass murders because you just have a lot of guys, you know, killing their family members. Unfortunately,

that's probably the most dominant trend. But what I did is I took the twenty five cases that I felt were the most interesting or illustrative of certain concepts or types of mass murderers and spree killers, and I put them all into Rampage. And the end product is there's some really diverse criminals in there, and it makes for very interesting reads. So yeah, that's pretty much. It so a lot simpler than the Genesis of the Cold North

Killers one. You know, it's just like, okay, well it makes sense to do it next.

to serial killing. Tell us what is that inherent difference or what you believe is the difference for the purpose of a categorization here, And also if you could explain what you mean by didatic didactic encyclopedia, sure, I'll get that.

rampage murderers. But at the same time you're learning about the concepts associated with rampage murders, so you're not just learning facts about the individual killers. It's also like themes, whether it's criminology, psychology, social elements that go into or you know, criminal justice system matters, which is always a huge thing, you know, when they mess up. And so yeah, pretty much that's it. Just the idea that you're getting sort of like a vertical and horizontal learning in the

same book. But at the same time, it's not a textbook. It's meant to be a good read.

of connected buildings, that's a single location. So a mass murder kills four more people in a single incident at a single location. So, if you're thinking about in the US right now, the guy in Oregon recently, I think that was the most recent one. I'm losing track now, the guy who shut up the school there, he would be a mass murderer because he killed four more people, and it was in a single location. He didn't move to another location. Do that as opposed to a spree killer.

A spree killer claims two or more victims in two or more locations, but it's considered to be the same incident, and that the person doesn't really go back to the routine of their life once they've committed to it, their go and so it's really a mass murder that takes place over several spots and sometimes can spend a week or anywhere from like a couple of hours to a week.

they're using until two thousand and five. But yeah, this idea of a cooling off period is really what separates them from rampage murders, which include mass murders or spree killers. And that the serial killer doesn't want to be caught or is careful not to get caught because they seem to enjoy doing what they do. They want to be at large in order to commit more killings, so it's important for them to be able to kill go back

into the routine of their daily lives. And now that doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of still a sexual element that's still under the surface there. You know, they may have souvenirs or trophies which they use as masturbatory aids or to kind of like existentially reminisce about these things. They still always have a little fire going there, but generally they seem to return back to their lives and can do that for days, weeks, months, years, you know,

as we saw with BTK. I mean I think he held off killing for about thirteen years after his last victim. So yeah, they have the capacity to do that, whereas a rampage murder commits, and once they're committed, they're committed. They may be at large for a bit, but everyone kind of knows who they are and there'll be a man hunt. And yeah, so that's really the main difference, if you knows. As much as we can put people like that into categories, you.

killers that we're seeing. We're seeing such so many mass murders in the States right now, and it seems like all of them are doing like these video blogs or sending out letters like it's just commonplace now. It's it's almost like they want to broadcast I existed and I'm pissed off that I was denied a good life and that's become standard. But we don't see that so much in Canada.

little piece of that fifteen minutes of fame. It's symptomatic of a lot of people, and I think it's I think it's pretty consistent in terms of these new killers as well. But let's when we're speaking about a school killing mass murder, let's talk about this incredible example that we spoke to and I spoke to in the introduction about Mark Leapene and the Equal Polytechnique, where fourteen women were killed, ten women were wounded and four men were

wounded as well. And this was December sixth, nineteen eighty nine. And so rather than the way you have it in the book where we talk about the crime and then you talk about and you've done an incredible job and amassing quite a background on each one of these cases. It's incredible the research you've put into this and the access and the information that you've dug up to really tell the story and really give a good character analysis

of these killers. It's incredible. So let's talk about Mark Lapine. He doesn't start off as Mark Lapine. He changes his name at thirteen years of age. So let's talk about his background, which is so important to tell the story of this Mark Lapine and this massacre at e Cole Pola Technique.

was an abusive man. I believe he was of Algerian background, and uh this uh, this man Rashid Garbi because Lapine's h name was Gamil rodrigue LEAs Garby Gamil actually meaning handsome in Arabic, and.

father actually beat him once for singing. He woke his dad up by singing. You know, you think that'd be a nice thing to hear your son singing happy, but not in this case. And this so they kind of lived under this tyrannical patriarch figure for a long time and finally he went too far. And after that, I'd believe It was shortly after the incident where Gamill was beat for crying by his father that his mother said,

you know, that's it. And once she decided that she was going to leave Rashid, he just completely cut off all financial support whatsoever. So it left the Gamill and his sister Nadia, and mother Monique right at the you know where they needed social assistance and they were struggling

to get by. This had the unfortunate effect of where the children were already kind of isolated and neglected by their mother, of deepening that because the mother was forced to go in and work extremely long hours to try and get by, and so they're already a lot of damage happening there, and then the one person they can bond with, their mother is suddenly kind of out of the picture. So Monique sent Gamill and Nadia to live with some caregivers throughout the week, and apparently they didn't

adjust well to that. They always wanted to see their mom, but they couldn't do so. And at this point Gamil begins to act out. He took a he'd gone on the camping trip, I believe with the caregivers, and he took like a propane tank and I think he attempted to blow it up or something like that. But the point was he was doing things to get attention. And so if you kind of weave all this together, you can start to see like where this really deep pathology

of a murderer comes from. It's not just political. It goes all the way back to childhood. And when he's about twelve, his mother's finally able to take him back, but now he's showing even more profound signs of disturbance. He digs a grave for his sister. He doesn't like his sister. It seems like she's always taunting him and digging at him, and this really undermines his self esteem,

especially as he's going into puberty. And he actually digs a grave for his sister in the backyard and his mother atches them doing this and say, what are you doing? You like, this is your sister, you know, fill the hole and he's just kind of the never really explains it, he but he just fills the hole back in. And at some point Monique's cat goes missing and she says, you know, where's the cat going? And Nadia Gamil's sister says, well,

I saw him. I saw him strangle it with a rope and she Monique asks him about he says, and I didn't do that, but she never ever sees the cat again. So this is as he's getting into puberty, also being called Arab taunted for his you know, the half Arabic I guess, mixed race background at school, and so he changes his name to Mark Lapine when he's

thirteen years old. But you know, right there, thirteen years of and you know, any of those things in isolation or you know, a couple of them, you will see that in the lives of many people. But there's a lot of real subtle stuff adding up there to a really maladjusted young man.

same name and is leaving this completely double life. And like you say, the mother is a French Canadian not of Arab or Algerian descent, and his sister Nadia is again ruthless in basically haunting him and his mother as you say, because of the long work hours and a combination of other things. He's really being neglected and doesn't have any positive role models in terms of women. He has, as you write in the book, no real success in dating.

He's incredibly shy, has acne. So we've got all those things. And he talks about earlier about this seven years of no Joy, And I maybe just jumping ahead a little bit, but where is it because you don't really point it out, but is there some connection with the mother refusing because he does go back with his father briefly, you say in the book, so that there is some confusion in

terms of his loyalty to his parents. But where does this feminism, this idea of feminism come from, or this idea that again either some traditional idea of what women role is in a marriage or in the home. Does Where does he get these earlier ideas that again will seem very important later in this story.

in his crib. Mother admitted that she couldn't go in to comfort him while he was crying because of her controlling husband, So at some point he just stopped crying as a child. So this goes really quite deep. And then abandoning them as kids to try and get by, And now she's doing that in the contexts of a single mother trying to make it in the world, and

she's devoting all of her time to work. Now, I think it's possible here that marcle Pene begins to see women in the workforce, perhaps as being tantamount to him being emotionally neglected and being alone. I think that's very possible there too. Also getting ribbed all the time by his sister, he must have really undermined his self. Esteemed like there was a point where he was having his first kiss and his sister saw him and made fun of him, and he I don't think he ever kissed

anyone again that we know of. He was very, very sensitive to rejection, which he would be if if he grew up in those kind of conditions, And I mean, there's probably some genetic factors too, with his you know, his father being a violent man, and so anyways to bring it back culturally, h yeah, this idea that he's he's mocked by women, and he's abandoned by a woman who wants to focus on her career, and even when she does get things back on track, she's still a

very career focused person. He's he's got acne, obviously, very shy, undermined confidence. So when he grows up and tries to form relationships with women, he's completely got nothing going from it at all, and he starts to get defensive as a way to kind of protect his bruised ego. I mean, most people don't admit, hey, I'm just a total clueless loser,

Like that's not you don't psychically survive that way. So he starts to erect you know, defense mechanisms, and so he he starts to get angry at women and starts to sort of project onto women womankind as a whole.

and dropping out even though his grades are good. He he's very subject to these sort of crashes, and he he probably saw a lot of people who are less gifted than him doing well. And and because of the way that he's blaming women for so much of what's going on in his life, he probably focuses on the

the females in that environment. And so this all culminates in UH him essentially being twenty five and completely alone in this apartment and just watching UH action movies and horror movies all day, and he comes up with this plan that UH he applied to get into the Nicole Polytechnique in in Montreal, and they rejected them, as they would because his grades are completely erratic and and as really just indicators of what what his emotional life was like.

And so he's rejected, and he sees all these women getting into the engineering program, and somehow he forms all these narratives together, these separate threads, and UH turns it into uh, he's going to kill women, you know, really cause he hates them and and uh, he feels rejected by them. He doesn't understand them, he feels that they're

at the bane of his life. But I think, probably to cover up how much of it is about him being inadequate, he sort of frames it in this pseudo political way that he's a radical making a stand against feminism. And they probably believe that somewhat himself. You know, he probably convinced himself with that, but it wasn't really about that, in my opinion. It was just about him being rejected by women, you know. Really in the later years, mostly because of his own doing.

there with his computer. But his friends try to get him out, even for social events, and yet he still stayed primarily in all the time in this little room, didn't.

them or not. And this probably just leads him to be incredibly angry and frustrated and to look at himself every time he goes out and fails in these social situations. He's kind of confronted with the reality of who he is. So for someone like this, it's much easier for them to sort of protect their inflated ego by not going out,

by just denying it all. And and so that's why I wouldn't go out with his friends, because he knew that It wasn't about him not being able to meet women or to you know, meet people who might potentially be as friends. It was his ability to know what to do to to get to the next next stage

with them and to and to keep them. And he just didn't have that equipment in place, So to me, that's why he's he's staying in and then he can lose himself in a fantasy world of violent movies ruled by these you know, sort of alpha male characters, uh, which you know, he might identify with and start weaving a narrative to to justify his existence based on that.

And the next thing you know, you've got this guy who's taking a two twenty three semi autic semi automatic UH machine gun and shooting up a U A polytechnic.

goes to the second floor engineering class. There's sixty nine students total, so take it from there. You have everything from exactly what he says, So tell us what happens.

and suddenly he has exactly what he wants. He has his little moment in the spotlight for for his time, his big dramatic ending, and he holds everyone at gunpoint. He orders all the male students out of the classroom until just the female students are remaining, and he asks them to back up against the wall, which they do. He's got a machine gun out, so they're pretty intimidated. Everyone's scared, and he starts saying things like you're all feminists.

I hate feminists. One of the girls tries to reason with him to say I'm not a feminist, you know, I'm just a female student. But he doesn't want to listen. He's not in the mood for discussion or to debate the finer points. It's really just about him now externalizing all of his anger on people. So the minute she starts to speak, unloads with the machine gun and then all the women fall down, most of them killed, many

severely injured. And then he leaves that classroom and he just starts to go down the hallways from room to room, shooting at students, mostly females, but as you did, mention, he hit a l a lot of males too, And this culminates in the total of of fourteen dead and fourteen wounded.

aftermath was of this murder? What did it ignite?

It didn't work. But it's it's interesting to me to see he seems to have been sort of the first of these sort of misogynists, isolated killers, and now they're popping up over the past, you know, say, five six years. They seem to be popping up all over the place.

I mean we have we have uh Elliott, Roger and Choe and this guy Mercer or something whatever his name was l recently in Oregon, and they're all, you know, saying, I hate women, I'm lonely, I can't you know, and they're using different language, but they're all essentially saying that the same thing. It's about social isolation. And so yeah, specifically it was U. There's this Memorial Day on and Women's Rights Day on December sixth, which is soon approaching,

and that was pretty much the legacy of that. But as you said, there is uh someone who who call themselves I'm trying to think now, wasn't there there was a couple too that committed suicide. Am I remembering that correctly?

teams would use this type of rifle as well. So, uh, tell us about any changes at all or any discussion about gun control legislation as a result of this incredible crime.

the periphery, then you know, it's like eighteen. Well and if you include his own life, you know, he's he's killed almost twenty people as a result of his actions. So yeah, anyways about the the legislation I that uh resulted from it, there is uh, yeah, I think that if I remember correctly, they were they were doing a push to an act gun control and stuff on semi automatics. But then I heard recently that you can still actually get that gun in Canada. So I don't know if actually if it.

gun control itself and the availabil and so at least it was that discussion.

two thousand and five. Again, let's talk about the incredible background that you've uncovered and put in this in this book rampage about the incredible life early life of James Roscoe.

his place in Mayor Thorpe, Alberta. Now his place is basically like a compound surrounded by chainlink fences, and they are trying to get in there and he and he is just telling them to fuck off and such, and he's got these really intimidating dogs kind of roaming around. They've, i think they've heard some rumors about him being kind of a dangerous character. So they're a bit where and they they come to repossess this truck and he sort of just tells him to get lost, and then he

gets in. He gets in the vehicle and drives off. And so that they Bailiff's contact the RCMP and they now have like a I guess, a probable cause to to enter the compound. And when they go in, they find a chop shop. Basically, Roscoe has been taking these stolen cars and he's he's been selling them out of there. And they also find that he's got a huge cannabis growing operation going on there. So he immediately becomes a

wanted man and he's gone, he's not there anymore. So they decide, well, we're going to post some RCMP officers here to watch the place while he's gone, and I guess they're collecting evidence and such, maybe seeing if he comes back. Well, he does come back. Uh, he sneaks back later that night and he has a firearm and he he creeps in and he hides in the back of this little hut and he waits, uh until the officers. Uh,

there's very few of them on patrol. They didn't seem to know completely the kind of psychology that were they were dealing with at the time, at least their superiors didn't and uh when they entered this hut, he just unloads on them and uh he kills four of them uh if and there's a big standoff kind of shoot out with police, UH long stalemate periods and h e ev Eventually Roscoe uh kills himself uh but takes these four RCMP officers with him and it's one of the

the worst massacres of of law enforcement in Canadian history. And the kind of interest part for me about this story is that the fall out of it is that they start to think about, well, did we calculate the risk properly in this situation? Did we really know who we were dealing with? And so they Matt Logan, who is an RCMP, one of their main behavioral behavioral cops, he goes and he does sort of like an autopsy

on this on the situation. He starts to dig into the background of James Roscoe and he finds that this guy has a huge history of versatile criminal activities. He's paranoid against the police, he's he's done aggravated assault, several homosexual rapes, and at this point Matt Logan starts to realize that this guy, James Roscoe, was a psychopath and

you should have taken a lot more seriously. And so the hope is that next time they'll be able to spot someone like this, But am I confident that they will? Probably not beforehand. But I mean that's the Mayrthorpe Rosco thing in a nutshell there.

and is embarrassing. So tell us a little bit about this earliest, because if we talk about psychopath, we look for the person that is just clearly not mentally ill. But in this mix, this confluence, we do have this mentally ill father and this bizarre upbringing as well, where not only is he spoiled and not only is he preferred or a preferential treatment, but also he has this bizarre upbringing.

a good pot for anyone. But I mean, I think where the psychicopathy thing becomes interesting is I mean, he's from, you know, a family where he has quite a few brothers and they all seem to grow up to be okay, but from the youngest age he's showing signs of just being completely manipulative, self entitled. And they could put that down to the molly codling. Apparently he was just like

the most adorable little baby and everyone loved him. But this meant that he could get away with anything, you know, especially in the eyes of his mother. So he's in he's grown up, and he's grown up in certainly not a healthy situation, but neither are his other siblings. So you have to wonder like, well, what is it specifically about this individual? And the explanation seems to be that you know that it could be the psycho, which is

actually you know, the genetic fluke. There's no evidence really that this religiosity or this abuse necessarily shapes his crimes. We don't see echoes of that in his crimes as specifically as we do in the case like Lupine, but it may certainly have had I think more the him being molly coddled probably gave him more of like a sense of entitlement and you know that I don't have to pay my way in this world, I don't have

to listen to any authority figures. I'm special, and you know, this could have paved the way for him basically making his living as a criminal.

the mother. So that's pretty much robed those Yeah.

and UH. Maybe at this point he sees the RCMP and his father is kind of being like one and the same thing, uh in that you know, the people with these moral standards that are trying to crush his his personal freedom and you know, these figures he doesn't respect, and I and A and it the so yeah, the RCMP is first actually associated with his father when it comes into his life, and this is probably the event

that begins the ball rolling. But he by as I said, he had a a history of run ins with the RCMP cause he was always doing things that were illegal.

was kind of like sadom masochistic homosexual stuff. They found a photograph of James Roscoe actually giving alcohol the two

adolescent males and sexually assaulting them. So they found once they're actually able to go into this individual's world because he had a lot of criminal charges, but I think only one time was he really convicted of something serious, and so it was when they were able to go into his personal space, after the fact that they really realized the extent to which this person had, you know, plans to take out the police officers and and this

sort of idealization idolization of past mass murderers, and that was when it all kind of clicked, but it was it was too late at that point.

he was. You know, there really are those people that are just they're just born bad. And I think that's the father's way of expressing that.

they're different from each other. And it's, you know, an amazing analysis of maybe why they came to be able to do some of these incredible crimes. We talk about entitlement. We again we talk about somebody that's got a little bit of a name in Canada, Alexander Keith, a famous brewery from the East Coast, and the not so ambitious and motivated Alexander Sandy Keith junior. So you talk about him being a con man and an opportunist politically and

business wise. So tell us a little bit about Alexander Keith, first the father and what sort of the family had achieved, and then Sandy Keith and what he tried to achieve.

the nineteenth century. And he comes over from Scotland and he sets up in Halifax and he starts to brew this uh Ia out there, and so he's he's kind of like a big man about town in Halifax. He's kind of the most powerful brewer, extremely wealthy. And meanwhile he has this nephew, Sandy Keith, who comes over from Scotland sometime after and uh Sandy Keith just really tries

to leech off his uncle's fortune. His his own father sets up a business which is in competition with his uncle, and he actually turns his back on his own father and goes over and sort of ingratiates himself from his uncle, becomes a bit of a a sick ephant and uh So right there you're seeing that he's just willing to take. He doesn't really have much loyalty. He's just going where

the opportunity is. And once he's actually in the good books with Alexander Keith, he uses it to start sort of throw his weight around town in Halifax, and there's times where he actually he actually impersonates Alexander Keith. So this already you're seeing kind of a similar thing as you mentioned with Roscoe. It's this sense of entitlement and that lack of loyalty towards one's family and this idea that,

you know, take the easy roots in life. And this eventually leads him to become a serial bomber and one of the worst mass murderers in ever to come from Canada, one of the most prolific. But also really he's also a serial killer at the same time, not in the sexual sense, but the sense that he probably killed multiple people multiple occasions before the big mass murder happened.

we can certainly assume so. And you know how kind of lucky lucky quotation marks can you get that every time you ensure stuff on or these ships, or ensure the ship itself, it seems to go down. So he has a history of doing this. He's actually broke when he's living in Germany. Without getting into too much details about it, he was essentially a spy for the Confederates. That's that's right, actually out of Canada in the East Coast and working with the Confederate Army in the United States.

And so when the Civil War ends, his fortunes kind of reverse and he ends up broken and hunted by bounty hunters with all these enemies in the US, and him and his wife have to go to Germany and change their names and kind of get new identities to have money for a while, but they live above their means, and they they squander a lot of it on frivolous stuff, trying to live a lifestyle like an upper class lifestyle.

I'll hob nobbing with you know, other sort of wealthy middle class people and and they just can't really keep it up, and so the money starts to run out, and Sandy Keith goes, HM, I need to do something

about this. So he returns to his old ways and he has an idea for this time bomb that is basically run by clockwork, and he starts visiting these clockmakers all over Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and he finally finds someone that can make like a clockwork time bomb to go inside inside this drum UH which he's placing on the mossel. And his idea is that it will go out to go out to sea and it will blow up and sink.

And then because he he has UH an insurance policy on it UH or on some of the stuff on there that UH he'll just get his payout as it was in the past.

He's either so shaken by what he sees or so sure that he's going to get caught, or maybe some combination of the two, that he actually goes down into his cabin below the deck and he attempts to commit suicide. Unfortunately for him at least he fails. And it's this failed suicide attempt which leads authorities to start looking at him. And the doctors are trying to keep him alive mostly to try and get details out of him, because they suspect he knows something.

were questioning her, his wife, Cecilia slipped up. I guess she was in on it to some extent, and she started to refer to him as Alexander, at which point they know that there's something amiss here. She sees her husband and she starts begging for the doctor to kill him, to put him out of his misery. At the same time, she's pleading with her husband to repent because he's a very she's a very religious woman. She wants to be

reunited with him in heaven after she left them. He says, I have been He says the last words to escape his lips, I have been a thick head. The fellows in New York are guilty. So he never actually really admits to it. He's still trying to lie at the very end there. But it's through the Pinkertons, with these little bits of nuggets as to his identity that they begin to try and figure out who this man is.

And these Pinkertons have been on his trail since his time in the United States fleeing as a former Confederate agent, and eventually they put all the pieces together and it's dawns on them that this is actually the nephew of Alexander Keith Sandy Keith and that person that's been causing trouble all over the North America and that a lot

of people have been looking for. And it's because he has this sort of this sort of notoriety and fame that they're able to connect Thomas and to Keith and realize that it's actually one of the same person.

beautiful at the time. He was working with her at like a he was at a munitions factory or something like that, and uh they were very happy for a while until Albert Gay meets this other young woman uh as as he's approaching middle age, and he decides that he's done with his old wife and h he wants to be with this woman. So they're carrying out an affair for a long time, and uh eventually she want

uh the young woman wants to call it quits. Albert Gay uh says, no, I I wanna be with you, uh, but she she blows him off, at which point he thinks, well, if I have my wife wasn't there anymore, and I had a bunch of money, then this woman is of course gonna love me because I'm Albert Gay. I'm I'm all that. So he uh he puts out an insurance policy on his wife. And she's taking a flight out from Quebec city, just a just kind of a local flight somewhere nearby, and Albert Gay has a bomb uh

put on designed and and put on the plane. And shortly after the plane takes off with his wife on it. It blows up and uh and kills all these people, and he's uh stands the benefit having had the insurance out on her, and so he's very dramatic at her funeral and he and he's really playing it up as as the bereaved and and saying things like you know, oh, you know, don't don't worry about me, I'll you know,

I can make it, and then bursting into tears. But it's all a big charade, and and some people become a little suspicious of him, and eventually it shown that he's part of the conspiracy of three people really two other people he he manipulated into helping him out with this. There was a woman who actually she checked in the luggage which contained the bomb. Gay didn't do that himself. He had this woman do it. And we don't know whether she actually knew what was in the luggage or not.

It's sorts of some controversy. And she was when they finally did catch him, she was She also got caught too, And how it all happened was she attempted to commit suicide when she found out what had happened, but she survived. And when she was taken in she more or less confessed to everything that happened, and then it led to this third person, the guy who designed a bomb, who

is like an old crippled man. And so Gay and his female and male accomplice all were tried, all convicted, and all hung and actually well hanged, i should say, and his female accomplass was the last woman to be hanged in Canada.

stuff was mostly property crimes. At the same time, he was known to pull guns on people and such too, So he seems to have had maybe been a little bit more successful in Roscoe in some ways. But I would say that there's a chance that that Albert Gay was psychopathic too, And I don't just throw that out there casually. I actually run the tests on them when I have enough information, and he has a lot of

psychopathic traits. The ability to do that really, to kill so many people just to get that one person to you know, to have your wife out of the way, and to get this insurance payout, unless you've got some kind of ideology going on, which he almost certainly didn't. You know, this wasn't my terrorist attack. It wasn't a statement. It was all meant to be sort of like as

quiet as possible. So the fact that you could kill that many people that easily and not have it on your conscience and go on and live with your life, which is what a lot of these mass murders don't do. They die with their victims or alongside them. But he wants to just return to his life with money and marry this younger girl. So it's me right there that indicates someone who's at the very least like, as you said,

I'm a malignant narcissist. But you know, probably it' psych about no remorse, you know, no empathy for anyone and to the other two people down with them?

a predator in a comment. He's able to see some kind of weakness in them, and he's able to capitalize on that by you know, befriending them and such, and once they're complicit to a certain extent, then he can use the threats to get them to go along with him.

we think of a mass murderer. But we have two examples there right in Canadian history of people who've committed really devastating mass murders using something other than guns and bombs, which are much more devastating, and just doing it for money.

family out in the wilds now. The interesting thing about swift Runner is he killed He killed his son. First his son, and then within a day or two killed six other members of his family, including four at the same time at the same crime scene. And then he stayed with his one son four months later before finally killing his son. So in the first instance, we have locations seemingly in the same incident where he kills the son and then kills other members of his family, so

that seems to indicate a spree killing. But then when he's actually at that next location, he kills four people in a single incident, which is mass murder. But then he stays with the son for a long time enough to cool off seemingly and kills him later. So are we looking at someone who's a serial killer or a spree killer, or a mass murderer or all of the above.

I propose the same challenges looking at rose ar Billideau, who was the first He was the first postal worker who went postal that I can find so far, and this was in this was in Canada actually, so I look at him through that Robert Pulen who shot up the Saint Pis the tenth school in Ottawa, and David Shearing, the Wells Grade gumman, who was really like a sex offender that used mass murderers as a way to facilitate his crimes. So that's just in the first two chapters

of the book. I look at those. Then I look at the first rampage killers in Canadian history. And so just to kind of get an idea of like the first ones that were reported, and that's a lot of the domestic homicides, but interesting historical cases. Nevertheless, I look at some personality disorders. I used the three offenders and look at one who's a narcissist, one he's an anti social personality disorder, and one who seems to be a psychopath,

Roscoe being the last of that. And so that gets into the cases of Valerie Fabricants at Concordia, Robert Raymond Cook who who seems to have killed his family out in the Prairies. And then I look at spree killers, which is something that we didn't get to cover on this show really yet with any spree killers. But I actually came up with a typology for spree killers because there wasn't one, so I thought, well why not. So I started lining up all the Canadian spree killers and

seeing if I can find some patterns. So I came up with these four categories of spree killers, three of which I could see in Canada. And the one category is utilitarian and which I don't mean in the philosophical sense, but I mean that this is someone who kills out of utility, like they need a car, they need money to get away from the cops, they need a gun. So they're always committing murders basically to just further their own immediate cause, which oftentimes is just running from the police.

I gave the cases of greg Re mcmaon and Jesse Jimeson to look at the utilitarian. I looked at them this category the exterminator, which is when you have a killer who goes on a rampage but specifically to take out a certain group in society. And so I have Marcello Palma there, who on Victoria Day, it was either ninety five or ninety six, it was in Toronto on Victoria Day. He just decided he was going to kill sex workers. So he killed three sex workers in downtown

Toronto and then just kind of went missing. They would eventually catch him. And then I looked at Stephen Marshall, who was from who was from Cape Breton and he actually went on a rampage in the States and was going door to door killing registered sex offenders in Maine, and I kind of look at Yeah, I kind of

look at too. I look at the similarities between him and Mark Lapine because I think there's a tendency for people to think, well, this Stephen Marshall guy, and he doesn't sound so bad, he's just getting rid of scum. And I really try and address, you know, what I consider to be a misconception. I mean, this guy is in the hero, he's just looking for a way to

justify wanting to kill. And so I get into a lot of his psychological background there, look at some documents from his youth and I compare it to Mark Lapeine and say, look, there's kind of a similar thing happening here. And then finally, the last type of a spree killer I look at is a signature killer. That's one typically

driven by you know, deviant sexual impulses paraphilia. And one of the cases I look at him there is one of the probably probably the most hideous cases I've ever heard of, and I can't believe it's not more well known, but it's of this guy, Dale Merle Nelson, who I think was September fourth and fifth, nineteen seventy was the start of hunting season, and he'd just been drinking all day.

There's some reports actually that he may have taken acid too, and he just kind of flipped and he started going around. They were somehow related to him. But he went to this woman's house and she had I think it was three daughters, and he bashed her her head in and then raped one of her daughters. But then he started getting into like corpse mutilation and necrophilia and cannibalism, and then he mass murders an entire family that same night.

So that is probably one of the most I think that's the most grotesque case I've ever written about in Canadian history, which is surprising that actually upstage the serial killers serial killers, you know as a spree killer, but that Dale Merl Nelson, So that's in there. And then I look at the typology of mass murderers that was proposed by Homes and Homes and the use cases to illustrate that. So we have a family annihilator, someone who

went to wipe out their family. I used Leonard Hoague, who was a cop who was who had he had robbed a warehouse or something in British Columbia and he was about to get call for it and decided to take his family with him. That was in the sixties, So I look at him as a family annihilator. I look at disciples and ideological killers through looking at the Order of the Solar Temple. I mean, that's half a show.

They're just talking about. Those guys absolutely absolutely crazy. It's one of these cults like you know Jonestown or the Manson family, whatever have you. But these guys actually had mass suicides and mass murders going on almost simultaneously around the globe, including in Quebec. So I look at that the Order of the Solar Temple, I look at typical disgruntled employee. I use Pierre Lebron who shot up the OC Transport depot there. I look at him as an

example of that disgruntled citizen. That's basically some citizen who just kind of loses their marbles and shoots up things seemingly without a real motive that makes sense. The closest I could find for that was was Denny Lorti, who went commando and killed three people wounded thirteen in UH in Quebec attempting to take out the the PQ. And then I look at UH set and run killers. Those

are killers that start fires or set bombs. So Albert Gay is under that that's the perfect example of your set and run killer and and finally I end with uh, psychotic killers, and I look at the very interesting case of Victor Hoffman, who was the Shell Lake murderer. And

this guy was in and out of psychiatric hospitals. He was having vivid hallucinations that he was seeing kind of like uh, a black furred devil when this devil was telling him to kill and they just keep they let him out of the psychiatric institution anyways, and he ended up just killing a family in a farmhouse. So that's pretty much the scope of the book right there, you know, looking at killers as examples of different personality disorders and looking at them within these typologies.

Now you've been on this the oh you're welcome, while also wanted to mention because the last time you were here, you have your fingers in your very prolific fingers in all kinds of other things, and writing is what you're doing full time. But you also have something of a

fine publication called Serial Killer Quarterly. And I'm just I don't know, I know that you said you were just in Europe for a little bit, So tell us a little bit about serial Killer Quarterly and what's new, and just tell us a little bit about that.

You know where we are in the twenty first century. We kind of got rid of those seedier elements of it, yet we concentrated on providing really good high quality true crime articles about these serial killers, and so I started to build up a roster of writers, which is it blows my mind that they all got on board, but you know, Catherine Rams and Harold Scheckter, Michael Newton, Kathy

Scott Brobert, a whole bunch of them. And so we put out eight issues of This Serial Killer Quarterly, which is kind of like an e magazine of which is taking the idea of the old true detective magazines. We've put out eight of them so far. So the issues we've done this year was Fatal Fetishes Number one and

Fatal Fetish Number two. That was sp Winter and Spring, and that just looked at cases of serial killers who have all kinds of different paraphilias, going from stuff as kind of well known and obvious as pedophilia, and then kind of getting a little more out there looking at sexual sadus and necro files, and then even getting into some really bizarre ones like hair fetish killers, killers that have partialist fetish fetishes for legs or bondage enthusiasts.

latest issue was actually on psychotic killers. So that's the killers that are motivated partially or almost completely by mental illness in the form of you know, schizophrenia, psychotic disorders. And so in that one we looked at Herb Mullen, and Herb Mullen was a guy killed thirty people in California because he believed that he needed to sacrifice people from Mother Earth and if he didn't do that, then

these earthquakes would destroy California. And his whole reasoning was that the Vietnam War was winding down and there was so there's seemingly less casualties from that, and that corresponded with a increase in seismic activity in California. And to him, in this kind of psychotic magical thinking, he connects the two. You know, one causes the other, and so in order to stop California from being destroyed, he kills thirteen people.

And so, yeah, psychotic Killers has got about six or seven cases like that, just really outlandish, unbelievable reasons why people are killed. One guy was trying to replenish his blood supply because he believed that Nazis were using UFOs to turn his blood into powder. And he thought this was happening because there is goo under his soap in the soap dish. So that's that's an example of some of the stories with.

or links out to Amazon with the ebooks there. We're actually just working on the page for Grinname Press itself as as a published as we're now expanding outside serial Killer Quarterly and we're going to be publishing true crime books and some fiction works too, so look for that coming on the horizon soon. I got some really exciting projects there, and yeah I do. On Facebook, I have a page for grinning Man Press. I have a serial Killer Quarterly page that's been really booming.

very much. And I'm sure we'll be talking to you in the near future.