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Loop Toad, you are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. In nineteen fifty eight, year old Charlie Starkweather, when on a murder spree that paralyzed Nebraska, shocked the nation, and left eleven people dead. With him when he was captured was his fourteen year old ex girlfriend, Carol Fugate. The questions soon became was she a kidnapped victim or a heartless accomplice.
Appointed to her case, attorney John MacArthur initially accepted the assignment out of a sense of constitutional duty, but as he delve deeper, he found that the truth was far more complicated than anyone was letting on up. Against incredible odds and with a strong conviction of her innocence, MacArthur remained with Carrol and fought for her freedom for eighteen years. For this service, he took no pay, accepting the case
pro bono. This book follows the long struggle of MacArthur, his partner Merril Reller, and John's son James, as they took on the Nebraska legal system and a public that had already determined Carroll's guilt before ever hearing a word
of tests morning. The story continues through all it influenced, such as Stephen King, who became a horror writer because of it, Bruce Springsteen, who wrote a whole album about it, Terrence Malick, Oliver Stone, Martin Sheen, and Peter Jackson, who wrote his first major movie based on the stark Weather Fugate incident. Pro Bono explores aspects of this incredible story that have never been revealed before and sheds new light
on these terrifying and complex events. The book that we're featuring this evening is pro Bono, The Eighteen Year Defense of Carol Ann Fugate, with my guest journalist and filmmaker Jeff MacArthur. Welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing this interview. Jeff MacArthur, thank you, thank you for having me Dan, Thank you very much. Incredible story, and we're going to take our audience, our international audience and our American audience back in time about fifty five years.
So this is a fantastic story and one of the most important legals stories in American history.
I got to.
Say, so, I'm really glad that we're covering this this evening. Cool. Now, first off, before we and let's not try to give too much away, because I love the way you laid out this book and how everything is revealed and how everybody is introduced and how the story unfolds. So we're going to, you know, try to follow it somewhat like that and spoilers and yeah, and just tell the story. You know, this this incredible story. Now, First off, what
is your professional background? And I think this is important, and how are you related to John MacArthur? First tell us tell us.
That please, Well, I'm the grandson of John MacArthur. James MacArthur is my father, who was one of the other attorneys. And I grew up actually not wanting to be an attorney, even though I came from this lineage of them. I was more interested in storytelling, and so I started with books as a kid, but then turned to film. I was interested in doing that, wound up going to film school and at New York University, then moved to LA
for obvious reasons, to follow the film career. And after a number of years I just kind of circled back around and realized, you know, it'd be a good idea to write a book about some things, and including this one that had been around in my life, you know, my whole life.
Yeah, you sort of covered my next question, But really, why did you feel so compelled? There's been so much written, so many movies inspired, like we mentioned in the like I mentioned in the opening, there's been countless newspaper articles, editorials, I say, movie versions. There's been songs, there's been albums, there's been people speaking about it. Why did you feel compelled? You know, like you say, you're a filmmaker, Why did
you feel compelled? And at this time, what was your reason for writing this book?
Well, you know, it was just after seeing the story sort of inaccurately portrayed so often, and you know a lot of times when somebody a lot of times when someone says inaccurate, they mean, well they wore different color suit or something.
In this case.
It's just been there's been this belief that Carol this was basically another Bonnie and Clyde, that Carol went with her boyfriend Charlie. In fact, when you read things about it, Charlie and his girlfriend Carol, and they forget to mention that she had broken up with them a few days before. And you know, I mean, there's so many elements about the story that have been mistold, misplayed, and what I
grew up with. It wasn't just a matter of hey, the record should be straight, but to me, it was a much more the actual truth was a much more interesting story. And I know it seems, you know, I seem biased because I'm from the attorney attorney's family, but I actually went and researched it independent. I was like, I really want to know what this thing is all about. So I read the original trial transcripts and all sorts of things and found them far far more fascinating story
than what had been portrayed in movies and books. And it was just more too complicated for a movie as well. So I just I said, you know what, this should be a book. And that's why that's why I ended up doing it.
Great now tell us about your grandfather, John MacArthur. Basically we get to an introduction through all of the all of the events in the book that you speak about, but also we get an introduction to him as you introduce him in early in the books. So let's get a sort of a cursory introduction to your grandfather who he was as a lawyer and the kind of lawyer he was, and again give us sort of the framework of the time, so that we've got sort of a context for that.
You know, Yeah, I'm glad that you bring up the idea of the framework of the time, because it's it's interesting today you say lawyer, and people get this image of the guy from Breaking Bad, you know, it's just so much of the sort of sleaziness et cetera, et cetera. And in fact, actually at that particular time, law was much more noble profession. Now, of course you always have, you know, people who were in for various reasons and stuff, but he had a lot more people who really believed
in what they were doing. And my grandfather actually referred to it as the practical application of philosophy, uh, and that was more his what he believed in, what he liked. He saw himself not so much of a defender of individual uh, you know, clients, but rather a defender of the constitution, and he believed that that's really.
What it was all what it was all about. As a lawyer, and.
He was very h He had a lot of credibility around town, was very well respected because of because of his integrity essentially, but he also really understood a lot of the situations of a lot of people who were in financial difficulty and all that sort of things. So he would sometimes work as a lawyer for somebody as a trade of goods. So there are a lot of farmers who they couldn't pay any pay him anything, but
they had certain items. And there was one story about when he was given a pig and he gave it as a pet to one of his to one of his kids, because was the payment he had gotten for being an attorney. So that's sort of what he was as an attorney and as a person. He was just a very quiet, reserved kind of person who didn't let a lot out, either verbally or emotionally. But he really enjoyed hanging around a lot of people who have, you know, very dynamic personalities and that sort of thing.
But yeah, it was interesting too that he's this dynamic speaker and of course he's not dealing with, as we see, not a minor case, but a very very important, major case of life and death. And yet at home he's this quiet guy. And what I found interesting too is maybe can tell the story of his wife was Seventh Day Adventist, but what was How is John MacArthur, despite what his wife wanted him to do, sort of testament to his character.
Yeah, that's an interesting, interesting question, I hope, and unless if there's something else you were meaning, let me know. But basically, yeah, as far as being a some day uh, he was agnostic, but he married this woman who was very strongly religious and really very strongly in a lot of people don't necessarily know Seven to Adventism. It's essentially the idea of it was now going into.
The whole thing.
One of the important aspects of it is the seventh Day Saturday being this uh, not only the day they worship, but having.
A lot of rules and restrictions to it mean you.
Can't watch TV from sunset Friday night to sunset Saturday night. But he was just lea and he was okay, you know, very much going along with it, except he would not give up sid Theezer, the boxing matches, and in particular Nebraska football. So he's like, all right, I just get those things and then you know everything else, I will follow along with the seventh to Avernist religion, and he
would always go through. He wouldn't go to church except when Saturday fell on Christmas, so it's like once every seven years or something like that. But yet he had his own kind of in a way, he was almost more spiritual than her because he was He's very very spiritual in kind of his own way, but he kind of held his own religion, if that makes any sense.
Yeah. And another testament to his character too is that he that he spoke out against the communist agitators in terms of the terms of the paranoia about it and called it for, you know, a group of bullies just damaging people. So he was a guy that really had a lot of integrity. So yeah, it really defies the stereotype of what people immediately think of now when you talk about you know, you know, murder trial lawyer.
So yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, McCarthy is maybe because you know, nowadays people look at that and oh, yeah, of course McCarthy's the bad guy. But at that time with a lot of people forget is that he was actually the popular one at that time, and to speak out against him was very unpopular. But that was something my grandfather. He didn't mind being in the minority. If he felt something was right, it up for it and usually was proven right in the end.
Now you also talk about, of course, your your father, and because he has a role in this story, as you do, and and also John Junior, and so tell us about life with this again important lawyer, but then very reserved kind of person as well. And like you say, you come from a family of attorneys, but yet you did not want to be attorney. Tell us about the uh, your your father and his brother and living under the with John. Yeah, you know, it's funny that you don't.
You know, sometimes we don't really recognize the elements of these. You know, my great grandmother lived to be over one hundred and she wrote in a covered wagon in Nebraska, and people asked her about it and she goes, it's just living. Why are you fascinated by this? And because us, you know, we grow up with the stuff. We don't even even was one of the Beatles even said, you know, somebody asked him what was it like being a Beetle, and be goause, I don't know what's it like not
being a Beatle. You don't even recognize the stuff going around you, especially when you're younger. And now that I'm older and I've really started researching this stuff, I'm just like, oh my god, I wish, yeah, I so much want to ask my grandfather so many things because at the time, you know what what impressed me was he taught me how to slurp spaghetti. To me, that was the big thing,
you know, about him. And but you know, now realizing all of this stuff, and and you know, I mean with my dad, it was just more the usual kind of you know, growing up with him and being as a teenager, you know, rebelling and resenting this or that. But you know, then realizing, oh, you know, later on, oh my god, look at all these you know, things that he did. And I've really loved the story between the two. And then my uncle who actually lives I'm in Lincoln at the moment, and both my dad and
uncle John uh still live here. The dynamic between the two of them, as you see in the book, they're you know, close in age, and they kind of grew up together, and you can see it whenever they're there together. It's one of those things where they're just you can tell they grew up together because of this little communication without even needing to say very much. So, yeah, you know, it's unfortunately, there's not a lot of exciting things to say.
I even worked at the law office and was surrounded by this historical stuff. I mean we, in fact, we have the few gate files in the garage here in this in this box. But to me, it's always been just oh yeah, that's the And every now and then somebody would come over and they'd be like, oh, oh my god, this is like a big part of history, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess it is, you know. And then of course I guess you asked about the
law too. I you know, part of the reason I didn't want to go into it was because, for one thing, I've always been a story person, and I think it was seeing what they do and it's just how dry it is the law is that I was, you know,
not particularly attractive to it. And my dad was actually very supportive that I kind of went away from it, not because he wasn't proud of what He's always been very proud of what he did, but he's very disappointed by the direction the law has gone and how it's become very much of a you know, see how much money you can sort of yank out of people type of a situation and trying through the media, which my grandfather sort of accidentally.
Put a start to.
But they, you know, they wish they could put the genie back in a bottle.
Yeah, well he was just reacting hesitant to be able to do that, to do that in the first place. But so without what we're getting ahead of ourselves now now was a very interesting part of the story. Portion of the story is the incident that happens where you bring the reader really into the story by having your
father answer the phone. I believe in the home one day again you say it's just like any other home, So nobody you're taking this for granted and and realize in retrospect, everybody realized in retort, oh yeah, we're part of American Now. Now, tell us about the incident that happened and how it happened. I'm referring to the phone call at the home one day and are you still there? Yes, Oh okay, sorry I thought I lost it. Yeah, yeah.
The he just apparently, in fact, the way it was ascribed to me was so casual, which is another reason why it took me so long to write. I could have written this years ago, but I you know, just recently wrote it, because so much of this stuff was
mentioned grasually to me. Oh yeah, you know, I picked up the phone and there was this death threat there, or they even said a neck tie party, you know, waiting for me, which I probably didn't even understand the first few times I heard it, but later on I'm like, wait a second, you were sixteen and getting a death threat, and oh yeah, yeah, you know, and then just kind of changed the subject or whatever. So, yeah, a number of these incidents, which are really like major historical incidents
I've just kind of grown up with. And he just sort of said, you know, said it like it was. There was no big I mean, basically, in terms of the story itself, he just got home from school and answered the phone. Somebody just said, you know, let your dad know there's a neck tie party waiting for him up here. In Bennett and hung up, and my dad was like, Oh, I know what case my grand my dad just took the kind of a kind of a
thing and they didn't for whatever reason they off. From the way they describe it, it sounds like they didn't take them too seriously. I guess they knew that no way was actually going to come by, but they knew people were really angry.
Now I think it's time to at least acknowledge that. We'll say, what is the story that the media has put out and we're at the beginning of this murder spree, So tell us about how the story is developing, how the media is framing the story, and how it's sort of received. Again, it's in the introduction we talk about how it just terrorized Nebraska. If people are can go
back fifty five years. Also, it is at least a time of perceived innocence, and to a certain degree, it certainly was in terms of now you have a serial killer, you know, anti heroes or heroes or you know, humanizing serial killers on television programs. But take us back to what this effect was prime actually was and how it was reported.
Yeah, you know, at a time, essentially it was you know, as it was going on, there was so much fear and nobody really knew, you know, what was going on. But then when they actually one of the things that made the time kind of innocent was sort of this trust in the police, and if the police just said this is what happened, it was just sort of taken for granted, well that's what happened. And the police had
really made some major mistakes. So one thing, Charlie Tarkweather had murder somebody the year before, and there had been plenty of people who had said he pointed direct the finger directly at Charlie, and the police had not followed it up. And now that Charlie was out killing more people, I think there was a realization, oh man, we screwed this up. We need to kind of cover this up.
So they kind of started perceiving, you know, perceiving it from their own direction, and they you know, at a certain point, we're just like, well, Carol Fegate is with them willingly, and we have a you know, an arrest worn out for her, an also of thing, even though she was leaving clues behind for them to follow with which once again they they made mistakes and did not follow them, et cetera. So they kind of came up with this whole thing of well, she's she's his girlfriend,
and she's with them willingly, et cetera, et cetera. And in the end, when she actually escaped from Charlie, it was reported that that that that both of them were captured, when in fact, actually she had ran away from Ryan.
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Charlie and gotten into a police office car and was the reason that Charlie was captured the police.
Rather than reporting that, they started saying, oh no, we captured both of them. And they realized, you know, well, we already put out an arrest warrant for her. It'll be, you know, too embarrassing for us to say, for us to essentially say, you know, well we were wrong about this or whatever. I mean.
I don't want to go too much into their heads.
But basically, they even though the facts were changing and they were realizing or they were realizing they were wrong, but these things they didn't change it. They just continued to tell the papers, Oh yeah, no, they were together willingly, they did all this together stuff together. And then newspapers unfortunately did not really investigate further. It was more exciting and more of a what do you call it, a more of a sellable kind of story to say, this is the new Bonnie and Clyde.
So it was sort of splashed all.
Over the headlines this you know, these this murderous couple was together and they're out doing these things. And Carol was not even allowed to see these newspapers. She thought she was being brought back to the line to testify against Charlie and instead, and you know, whenever any newspaper reporter would come up to her, she was kind of
protected from them whatever. And again she thought she was being protected, but it, you know, turned out they were trying to ask her a question, you know, and continue on, you know, oh so why why were your boyfriend or whatever. So her story didn't get out until long into the you know, as the case was going along, and she didn't even see what they were reporting for a while.
So the story just got out, oh yeah, this boyfriend and girlfriend went out on a murder spree together, even though the truth was much more complicated.
Well, let's let's go back, because if our audience isn't confused, I'd be surprised. So let's let's go back a little bit in terms of because I mean it really, this isn't Your book is really about one of the most important trials, and you really do make it crystal clear why you make it easily accessible. A lot of people don't like sort of the monotony, they would say of a trial, or some of the tedium or some of
the repetition. But this is a trial where there are very important issues, and you bring those out very easily. It's very easily understood. You don't have to be a lawyer for this. So we want to go back. There are always two versions or three versions of stories. And what's essential about this is the legal issues that really are pervasive through this entire thing. A keeper in jail for eighteen years and convictor in the first place, it's much harder to win an appeal than it is once
you have that conviction. It's much harder to get that overturned. In appeal. Appeals are very seldom successful, and they don't retry a case. People think, well, maybe they're going to go re examine the case, but it's not really exactly what they do. So let's go back in terms of what the murder spree was exactly how many people what kind of crimes were involved, because it hinges on things like her family and if she knew and when she knew,
and you prevent you provide all this information. So let's go back and tell a little bit more of the story of the murders themselves, and then the capture of Charles Starkweather and that story that changes with the police
officer eventually at trial, which is crucial. So let's go back and talk about some of these crimes and what the public was convinced that a fourteen year old, This is something that's hard to comprehend, especially outside of America, is at fourteen year old, we normally don't attribute this kind of We don't consider them adults at fourteen years of age. We might have a problem with their crime,
but we don't and immediately assume that they're adults. And so tell us what this fourteen year old was supposedly had done with their own family and these other couple the murders.
Polease, Okay, yeah, sure, yeah. In fact, actually I usually like to talk about it from the point of view of what the public knew, because it's very easy for me to just say it from Carrol's point of view, because that's what you know, I was raised on. But I understand that you know, what's provable, you know.
Is what I usually prefer to go by.
And essentially, in nineteen fifty seven, in December, a gas station attendant was murdered. A lot of people pointed the finger at Charlie. There was more than enough evidence that he had done it, but the police never even charged him. In fact, they never charged anybody with it. Then, at the end of January nineteen fifty eight, what is known as that Carrol Fugate went to school, She went home at the end of school, walked home with somebody and then disappeared. And for like about a week she and
Charlie were you know it, we're inside this home. Nobody knew who you know, basically, what had happened to him? Oh by the way, she and then like I said, she had broken up with him. A few days before this happened. Several people came visited the home. She always showed up at the door said everybody stick with the flu and go away. And she even put a note on the door that where she said everyone sick with the flu, stay away. And at the end she had
signed Miss Bartlett and the only Miss Bartlett in the home. Actually, because of her mother had remarried and everything, Carol still went by fugate. Her mother was missus Fugate, I mean it was missus Bartlett to the new marriage, and so the only Miss Bartlett was this two year old daughter, you know, half sister of Carol, and so it was sort of like the clue, and she had underlined three times Miss Bartlett. Anyway, so several people came and they started realizing something's wrong.
They read the note.
They Carol had been pointing, you know, to like putting her hand by her mouth and pointing in the direction. And so these other people went to the police, including Charlie's own brother, and we're trying to say, we think something's wrong, you need to go over there, and the police just wouldn't go over there, kept telling them, you know, you're crazy. Finally just sort of like did a cursory examination. Short drop by then left and then Charlie's brother and
Carol's brother in law go to the house. By that point, Charlie and Carol are gone. They actually investigate the house and they find three bodies, Carol's mother, her stepfather, and her half sister in the chicken coop out back and the stepsist or the half sisters in the outhouse or
the bodies of them. Then essentially the next day they discover the body of one of Charlie's friends, who August Meyer, who was a farmer way out, you know, on his farm several like thirty miles or like twenty miles east of town. And then they find two teenagers in a storm not storm cellar, like a yeah, yeah, it's like a storm cell it's like the place that people could go to, you know, get away from like tornadoes or whatever. Their bodies are, you know, down in a storm celler area.
The girl had been raped and the boy had just been shot. And then so everybody now thinks, okay, they're gone east. They actually discovered some of the murdered girl's books west of there and have fallen as if they're you know, in a trail going back to Lincoln. But they just go they did they go, Well, they must have gone east, and so the police go that direction.
Uh.
Then like the next day they discovered the bodies of this very wealthy, like one of the most well known affluent people in town named Ward. His wife Clara Ward and then their maid all murdered inside of their home. So now Lincoln just.
Goes well, the whole city goes ballistic.
Because you know, it's they they thought they could trust, you know, and people didn't have locks off, or they didn't lock their doors usually just you know, and this is a very trusting type of place. Now the National Guard is called in. They're going all over the place looking for Charlie, anybody who's red headed, because he was he had bright red hair. Anybody's red headed as targeted.
The gun stores emptied out immediately, and yeah, if there's this gigantic panic, uh and then so they're looking.
Everywhere they're from.
All of a sudden it's discovered or all of a sudden f and wyoming. This fourteen girl runs and jumps into a police car, points out Charles Stark. Whether the guy doesn't see because he's stuck behind a milk truck. He looks around around it and sees Charlie wrestling with somebody. He's about to kill someone else, he sees. The police officer,
jumps in his own car, drives away. Turns out he had just murdered someone else as well, so that was his eleventh victim, and they chased Charlie down and capture him. So that's that's the story of the murder three.
The murder three basically, Yeah, and what I had said, and we might as well explain this now while people have this idea in their head that initial cop did not go after Charles stark Weather, but he called ahead and they chased him down. Right, He stayed right, Caryl fugate, and he knew very well that of the chain of events where she ran to him, and he didn't know who Charles stark Weather it was, or at least he
didn't notice that. That's he didn't identify the perpetrator. She did and she ran to him for help and was hysterical and did like a victim either that or a brilliant actress. So that one rry, go ahead, go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say, yeah, you're right.
That that is the thing is she would have to have been this brilliant actress in order to have pulled that off. And later on it was that police officer sort of turned on her and said, well, she said these incriminating things, but when you actually put it together, what he was claiming was that she jumped into his car, was hysterical, ah, and it stopped. And when I saw
him kill everybody, including my parents. Then you know, for whatever reason, he turned around and started saying that she said things that when you actually acted out, it's absurd. There's no way that that human nature wouldn't have acted, you know, wouldn't have gone that way. But yeah, they that she, you know, she was the reason. And he hadn't even seen by his owner mission. He had no idea. Now he did, he probably knew who. In fact, he did know whose dark Weather was, because it made it
not only national news, but international news. There are newspapers in Russia that talked about this, and you know all over. In fact, Peter Jackson, for whatever reason, made his movie or wrote a movie in New Zealand that dealt with us, so, you know, apparently got everywhere. But this is so he had heard stark Weather and apparently his when in her rambling and like fearful screaming, she said the word stark Weather, he.
Just froze up.
But it was just like stark Weather wasn't supposed to be anywhere near there. Lincoln was is eastern Nebraska, and there they are in Wyoming, you know, a day's drive away.
So it was just like, how in.
The heck did they get up there? And he hesitated and he got afraid. Finally, Charli jumps in his car, drives away and he gets on his radio, like you said.
Called up. Some other people chased him down. It was it was one of those car chases straight out of a movie.
It was over one hundred miles an hour, raced through a town. They actually bumped bumpers a couple of times, just absolutely crazy stuff before he finally gave up.
No, police are obviously anxious to talk to this guy. And what is the first statements, because this is very important. What are the first statements that he makes to police, if any, tell us about the first interview and what he says or what he doesn't say in that interview with police, especially regarding his ex girlfriend, Carol Fugate, or how does he describe her.
Tell us, Well, the very first thing he when he tells the stories, he tells that she had no part of it and actually tells the same story that she was telling.
That she is still told the day it was.
Essentially that he had gone, he had killed her family while she was at school. Then when she got home, he said, well, they I have them kidnapped. I have you know, some friends of mine have them at the you know, at their home, and if you don't do everything I tell you, then I'm going to call them up and have them kill your family. And so she went around and you know, just sort of went with him everywhere, so, you know, so to avoid having her
own family killed. And yeah, and he basically described the whole thing is just simply them going around and him killing everybody and her just kind of following behind but not wanting to.
Be with him.
And that's the same story he tells. That's the only the only time he ever told the same story twice was his initial interview, and then a second interview he told that same story. But then the third interview they went to him and said, oh, by the way, Carol's saying that you're crazy, that you're insane, So what'd you tell me. The story was that he went, oh, well,
let me tell you. You know, essentially paraphrasing, but he said, well, let me tell you, and then he started telling about how she had been a part of it, and she had helped them do everything, et cetera, et cetera. But then every time he told the story was completely different.
Was that all that they had said to him? Because they said, why is it that he would be a crazy person? Is it would set him off? It was a little more complicated and a little more conspiratorial than that, wasn't it.
Sort Of It was just essentially they were, you know, going to him from you know, not not having any other counsel there or whatever. But yeah, it was just the county attorney and a couple others would just sort of show up at his at his cell and essentially they were they were wanting. It came down to basically they were going to be trying her as well, which
by the way, they didn't tell her. They they told her, oh, yeah, we want you to tell us about what Charlie did, and then they would get all this information about her. But then when they went to you know, meanwhile they were trying to get Charlie to testify against because they're going to have his trial and then they were going to have her trial, and they wanted him to be the star witness at her trial and tell her or
tell them that she did all these things. And whenever they when they first started asking him, you know, about the story. He was saying, oh, no, she had no part of it, and they kept being like, well, wasn't she didn't she do this?
Didn't she do that?
No, No, she had no part of it or whatever, and they kept trying to kind of find out if she had done anything, like they were trying to feed him something. He wouldn't do it until, like I say, they came by and they said essentially just said, yeah,
she's she's saying that you're crazy. And that's the one thing he couldn't stand is is I mean he literally could have at least tried to get saved his life by by taking the insanity play, but he felt felt so strongly about not being called insane that he wouldn't even take the insanity play. So when she said he's you know, when he found out that she's saying he's crazy, which she actually wash, he just went ballistic and was like, Okay, I'm going to take her down with me too.
Basically, well, there was a part of this story that that you know, they did get right in you know, you know, Oliver Stones movie and some things, and that he seemed to be really enjoying this infamy and you know that there was you do make a comment that he looked very much like James Dean, but with this bright schlock of hair or shock of hair and these green eyes when he's about five foot five. But he was, you know, a character that again very much looked like
James Dean, and the media played upon that. But he seems like he seen to enjoy his moment in the limelight, and he certainly didn't want it in his family as well. Didn't want him to be depicted as crazy and refused to believe in that regardless of it would save his life.
Right, you know, yeah, as far as yeah, he was concerned. He just was eating it up because up to this point he'd always been overlooked and made fun of and looked down upon. And you know, finally he had the sort of quote unquote respect and in a weird kind of way. I mean, when he came into the courthouse,
there was a doctor giving testimony. Now he was a doctor who probably has you know, either I forget if he was a research doctor, you know, but in any event, I mean, he was somebody who really is to be respected, any doctors to be respected. But yet the audience wasn't looking at him, and the or the crowded courthouse wasn't looking at him. They were looking at Charlie when he came in, and he just ate it up and loved it.
And to him it was kind of like the more I tell these stories, the more everybody is, you know, eating up, eating up my words, anything that I say. And so he loved. The source of thought is I'd rather have these few months of total attention in the lifetime of being you know, looked down upon and scorned
and all that. Well, his family, meanwhile, you're right, there was a certain pride that existed amongst them that if they you know, if he was considered in saying, well, that was you know, dishonorable, dishonorable to the entire family. And you know, while they didn't necessarily want it to be executed, at the same time, you know, his sort of death before dishonor type of the thing. And so yeah, they really stuff against their own attorney, who wanted to use the intenity play.
They were soup very very much adamantly opposed to that idea. The other legal aspect that anybody that knows the lot at all, even if you watched Law and Order for one one season, you would know that a fourteen year old is advised of her rights. And then this particular case, basically what they did is they spoke to her without any attorney at all. And the reason why she would especially have done that because she was under the impression and they made this impression towards a fourteen year old
that she was just giving information about Charles Starkweather. And like you say, she stuck to her original story, but gave information that later in the hands of the prosecution would turn it around in terms of incriminating and damaging
evidence against her. So that's in combined with and what I mentioned about conspiratorial it seems that if you're giving a guy a bunch of pack of cigarettes and extra food or special treatment of any sort to a guy that a loser that's never had any decent treatment in his whole life, that's what I'm talking about. They used And it was interesting in your book too, And you can tell us about this that your grand father had a certain ethical code and his friend it was to
take on this case. Tell us a little bit about that, because that's an interesting dynamic in this as well about John MacArthur, your grandfather, and this and the eventual prosecutor a prosecuting attorney, and in this case.
Yeah, you know, in fact, I wish I could have put more in there about that, but I do know that he and Elmer Shield were friends because they had both been in the legal profession for about the same amount of time, and Shield had come from an FBI background, and the two really respected each other and liked each other. And then this and then this thing came along, and
she'll you know, I mean, it's one thing. I understand that prosecuting attorney has to do their job, and they have to, you know, take on.
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From the case that, you know, uh, regardless of the situation, they need to, you know, go from their point of view. It's the thing it's hard to understand about lawyers is even if they don't necessarily agree with it, they have to take on the case anyway and show from the best point of view. But she all went beyond that. First of all, he didn't even need to charge her before he knew all the information. He charged her while she was still on the road and nobody knew all
the facts. But also he really started going with all of this, these really back alley tactics, and that went beyond it. It wasn't just a matter of Okay, I'm gonna give the point of view from this side. I'm he kept on doing these kind of sleazy back alley tricks.
And I don't know when.
I mean, unfortunately, because my grandfather was so kind of reserved, he didn't really express what it was personally that went on. But I can only imagine, you know, here is as close you know, a good friend of his that you know that's sort of doing all this stuff, and so I can only imagine that they I mean, it seems as if after that they weren't quite as close. But unfortunately, I don't know a lot about it. But but yeah,
it had to have affected their friendship. That's one of the reasons why I'd have a hard time being a lawyer because one of the things that my grandfather said to my dad, and my dad's passed on as well, he said, he if you take anything personally, you don't, you're not a lawyer for long. And I don't think I could do. I think I'd get so angry at some of the tricks that these people pull that I don't think I could face them again.
Yeah, there's certainly a lot of politics, and especially in the American legal system, that the certain seem to affect outcomes, sometimes negatively, you know, because yeah, there's a lot more than just the case itself, and a lot more than just doing your job when there's political motivations there. So, anyway, getting back to this story here, now they have now the change story, and so what is your grandfather's tactic
in all of this? How does he? First off, how does he a lawyer, regardless of their client's guilt, will defend them to the best of their ability. And your grandfather was, you know, believed in that, but often or most often the clients are guilty. So tell us about this sort of transformation or at least the event that you know or tell us about the process where he ends up believing her and which just just adds to his zeal in defending her.
Yeah, you went in, you know, like you said at the beginning, he went in with a sense of constitutional duty that this is uh, what do you call that? That essentially he asked to as you were saying, he hasd to just simply represent somebody, regardless of his own personal feelings on it, uh, and he would do it.
To his best best of his ability.
But when he started, you know, when he started speaking with her, he started seeing how she just very obviously had not been with him willingly. I mean, it wasn't to him, it wasn't even questionable. It was just there were so many reasons to believe that she didn't want to be with this guy.
Would be to be with Charles Starkweather.
And he also saw how the prosecution were doing a lot of dirty tricks right from the beginning. So yeah, became very personally involved, which you know, I mean, for the most part, he did everything to his best of his ability regardless. But when this because of his personal you know, personal feelings on it, you know, he and there was just yeah, like a sort of personal zeal
to it. I think it really more came out because he would have done as better that he could, regardless, but it especially came out after she was still pronounced guilty. He stuck with her, which he didn't necessarily do with other clients, and he continued to represent her completely pro bono, which is why I called the give that name to the book for you know, eighteen years, just because he
believed so firmly in her innocence. And I think it also actually comes to think of it, did I think comes through in the trial because sometimes when you look in the transcript, even though it's very dry and just question answer, question answer every now and then, you can see a little bit of personality when you know the
way somebody does it. At one particular point, if the transcript says something like he's you know, he begins to mutter, he's like making objection and continues to you know, usually it's objection based on one thing, but he said objection and he had like leading misleading, and he goes like goes on for like five different words, and then it just says continues muttering and just like, you know, mister MacArthur, I can't even understand you, and you could just tell
he was getting very frustrated. Buy this beyond the level of just this is a client for me, you know.
Now, tell us about the trial itself, because you know, part of this story is the eighteen year battle, and of course in parts of this are well she should be out now though, oh she certainly will be out now. Well this has got to work now and so but eighteen years ends up being a lot of failed opportunities, let's put it that way. So let's get back to the trial itself, because it's fascinating again. You know, one of the trials of the century. Tell us how John
MacArthur tries to defend Carol Fugate after the media. You know, basically it's probably one of the first or one of the best examples of trial through the media. What does your grandfather reluctantly agree to do, and how does he go about doing this and what does he actually do to rehabilitate the I guess the character of Carol Fugate for the public.
Well, yeah, after she was after she was taken in the there was all this speculation that she was pregnant, and I mean rumors started spreading all over the place, and you know, my grandfather. First of all, he goes to her and she didn't even know she's being charge. He had to sort of explain it to her. But then on the other side, you know, you have the media wanting to get through and he's like, no, I don't want to uh try this, you know, through the media.
I don't want to h what do you call it? Uh, I don't We basically did not want to start what his you know, what is happening now, which is you know, a lot of times people trying something through the media. He wanted it to you know, to stay in the courtroom. He cared very much about the way the legal process work, and he was very passed about that and not letting it, you know, because he didn't like the idea of rumors
getting out in this or that or whatever. But of course, the prosecution from the very beginning was going straight to the newspapers saying their side of the story and allowing the rumors to continue. And the media was even what do you call it, sending it and spreading the rumors, sometimes reporting it as facts. So finally, this woman, Ninette Beaver, had been trying to get my grandfather to do an interview for her boss, Floyd Calver. Uh, and he, you know,
like I say, he just kept on refusing. But finally, after you know, after all this time and all these different places we're spreading rumors, he finally calls her up and says, Okay, we're gonna do this, but we're gonna do it as a press conference. I don't want to have just you know, one person uh doing it. I want or I don't want her to have to go through this multiple times. I'm just gonna have all the media there and one person's going to ask the questions.
So she's like, okay, you know you got to let you know, my boss, Floyd Calver do this. And to me, it's one of the most exciting moments is when you know, she says this actually to my grandfather's partner and he says, no, no, he's not going to do it, and she's like, you've got to have to work too hard on this, and they went, no, we want you to do it. Nte Nineette was like this young report, I more like an assistant really, but they just trusted her and believed in
her and wanted her to do this. So all of this media across the country shows up and here's this, you know what they would consider a hic girl reporter in the nineteen fifties when women weren't as well respected, being the one to be able to interview Carol and to me. As a result, Ynette wound up being kind of one of the heroes of the story because she became very interested in the story. And that was the reason my grandfather liked her, was because unlike a lot
of reporters, she had a lot of integrity. She was curious about the truth, not about what would sell newspapers or advertising time or whatever. So she really asked Carol some good questions and Carol answered them. But unfortunately, she was so kind of nervous that she spoke in this very tight kind of way, robotic kind of way, and it read to a lot of people. A lot of people didn't listen to what she said. They only saw
the way she said it. And because she looked guilty, well therefore, you know, they believe she must be.
Now this is also it's a press release, and it's also trying to rehabilitate the public that will potentially be in the pool of jurors, which so you're influencing potential juror pool to a certain degree. Anyway, is this a dress rehearsal for the trial? And why? Again, most people that follow legal trials, murder trials know that you really don't put your client up on the stand. Why would he do that or why would he why would your grandfather consider doing that?
Well, that's yeah, that's a really good question, because you're right, a lot of times you don't want to put your own client up there. But yeah, you know, especially in a town as small as Lincoln was at that time. I mean we're not talking about just you know, talk abut around on hundred thousand people or whatever, but it's still relatively small, so your jury pool is not going to be of a you know, very large number. And that's again part of my my grandfather's asthical standards is
he didn't want to influence the jury. He'd be believed in the idea of they go in ignorant, not knowing anything, just simply you know, learning about the case there, which is why he didn't want to say anything in the press. But of course the other side was and they were get you know, making people believe certain or not. I shouldn't say, making people believe, but they were influencing the people of the town in a certain way so that the jury would be made up of people who believe
she was guilty. So yeah, he very reluctantly had that the press conference, you know where where they you know, a lot of the information got out and so that as a result you did have people least seeing the other side. But it backfired kind of for him because of the way she For her, it was more of a of a dignity thing she did. You know again, it goes that whole thing of pride. I'm not going to look emotional and sad. My grandfather even told her, don't. He was afraid if she'd go too far the other
way and become really emotional, so he said, hold it in. Well, she held it in so much that she always answered questions like this, and you can even see the interview on YouTube. I have it up there with my book, and she, yeah, just looked so robotic that people kind
of turned against her. So that in the trial, my grandfather tried again and he's just like, because the only people who knew on the road what happened were Charlie and Carroll and Charlie was saying that she was guilty by this point, so he, you know, the only witness he could put up there was well, there were a few other people, but for the most part, it was
Carol to tell her own side of the story. And also the other thing is the prosecution read the statement that she had given when she didn't know she was on trial, that she had given just telling about Charlie, but as a result, certain things of the way she said it made it sound like she was a part of it, and so he put her on the stand so that she could explain, well, no, it's.
Not what I was meaning.
I was meaning this and that and the other thing, so that you know, that was part of why I pe it up there. And again, unfortunately I've worked against her because she just sort of looked so kind of cold, even though she's just trying to not be emotional.
Essentially. Well, the other thing is too and I think we talked about this already, but the resting police officer that she ran to also changed the story so that it effectively didn't sound so much like she ran to him, as he wanted to make himself more heroic, and so the story changed, well, it was advantageous to the prosecution.
So how can that truthful story of her running to him being hysterical, and again some of the facts like her insistence and you know, being hysterical, but also not knowing where her family was, asking about her family, was her family safe, or I'll be able to talk to my family or what about my family? So most statements were in there as well and corroborated a lot of the was it the end that had gone to the house and she was rebuffed by Carol that evidence was there.
You're right her grandmother. So was her grandmother? Okay? Yeah?
Who Actually the police said that she was a crazy old woman and she needs to leave her family alone. Quit bugging them when he or she was going to the police saying, hey, something's going on over there. And Charlie even later taunted them with that when they finally captured them. He said, you know, if you had caught me at such and such a time, none of this would have happened. It was like, yeah, please, the assault a little further into the wound.
Why don't you What was the testimony of Charles Starkweather at the trial, like.
It was you Well, first of all, it changed every single time he told it, and it was essentially he said that Carol had helped them. A lot of the stories that exist today come from one of these stories and make you can you know, anytime these documentaries say this is what happened, you can usually go to the trial transcript, which by the way, are on the website
at provoton dot com or provoton't book dot com. You it's yeah, you can see the source in one of his in his testimony where essentially he's like, well, she did this, she did that.
But usually the stories themselves, if you follow.
Them like he'll he'll say what was it that she sat and watched TV while he was killing her family? But if you continue to read his version of the story, what he says is that what was it The mother came at him. I was the father came at him with a hatchet or something like that, and he shot him, and then the mother came running at him with a knife and he did a doubt or you know, he did a flip like this action hero and shot her. And but she, you know, even though he shot her,
she continued to go at him. Uh, you know, after several shots went into her. I mean it basically comes out like a shlocky horror film that he very clearly you know, had kind of gotten all this from. And he tells all of these ridiculous stories. The prosecution is he's asked answering these things, would just kind of let him go through it, or they would kind of lead
him through, you know, a version of the story. Then my grandfather would get up there and rather you wouldn't mock him or anything, but he would have him you know, he'd like, well, wait a minute, didn't you say this earlier? And then Charlie would then tell yet another story, or he would kind of you know, run him through the
elements of these things. And the more absurd that Charlie got, the more my grandfather would essentially have him go well further, you know, essentially dig a deeper hole from himself.
Oh he did that? Huh?
Well, then what you know how they do this? And then after a while just kind of reveal, wait a minute, isn't all of this impossible? Until the point where Charlie actually kind of quieted down and just you know, even kind of admitted that what he had done was wrong.
But it was interesting too that he was that your grandfather did not ask to be to treat him as a hostile witness because he wasn't. At some point just refused to ask to answer any questions. I've actually never heard of a trial where someone didn't compel the person to answer the question. It's not right. I don't talk about that. Talk about this and incredible. It's an incredible trial where you know, you hate again like you say, you hate to be biased, but you prevent you present
the information. And it really is a travesty of justice this trial. It really is that they have a foregone conclusion and they're making it fit. And that's it because the testimony, when your grandfather shoots holes in the testimony, it seems like the jurors never heard that, so they really didn't weigh in again the information away, you know, anyone objectively that looks at those transcripts. So they were affected at the trial by something and maybe preconceptions in
the first place, or the prosecution. And because you present the case that everybody, you know, your grandfather fought very very hard to present a good defense for Carol Fugate and yet tell us what the conclusion was. Obviously, well, yeah, it's.
And first of all, thank you for that. It's it's just nice to hear people saying that when they look at it objectively. And it's that's why I actually offer the transcripts because it's like, Okay, look, I know I sound biased because I'm the defense of the attorney, but really look at this objectively, and it's it's hard not to see it as ay, like you say, a travesty of justice.
In the end, yeah, they.
They pronounced her guilty. And when the juries jury members were asked, you know what did they base it on? They said she looked guilty.
And that's really who all it was.
It was just the fact that, you know, she just seemed guilty to them, even though the facts were really all in her favor. The only person who uh and there were there were like three things of testimony against the Charlie's, which I mean, how could you believe anything he said? The one police officer, who I can understand wanting to believe a police officer, but I mean, when you really reenact what he says happens, it's physically impossible.
And this one, this one woman who says she talked to I was the wife of one of the police officers who or sheriffs who talked to Carol privately in a car with no one else present with all the windows up, and she says, well, this is what she said, and it was never corroborated, and it goes against everything else that has been said. So really there was really nothing to base it on. But yet they yeah, they did. And one of the jurors had actually bet made a
bet that she would be found guilty. You know, he gets more and more absurd, So yeah, she was found guilty and then yeah, my grandfather just said I'm going to stick with her and until I can get her free.
Now, the significance of this too is that often I want to make this clear too, because when you hear pro bono, there are reasons why some lawyers would take a case pro bono, not not to you know, deflect or denigrate that service for free, because it's a great expense and a lot of work, and lawyers don't typically work for free. So there is that philanthropy angle there
that has to be taken into consideration. But a lot of people will do a pro bono case because it's a high profile case, they don't have death threats against them, and it's going to do something for them in terms of business with clients, such as the client they're they're defending for without any fees. That wasn't the case with your grandfather. Wasn't in his career.
No, actually he he wasn't volunteering or anything. It was just that he was assigned.
The case.
Actually, the judge's son recently approached me and said that he would have He had been actually trying to get his partner, Meryl Reller, to be the you know, the attorney, but Reller was out of the country on a safari. My grandfather just happened to be there and got the case and said, okay, sure, I'll take it, and was actually offered a certain pay. But they this particular case or in Nebraska at that time, I guess they uh didn't reveal how much they were going to pay the
attorney until afterwards. They just sent him a check for some reason, and they sent a check that was half the amount that they had paid each of stark Weather's two attorneys. And and by the way, they allowed dark Weather to have two attorneys, but when they came to Carol they did not allow uh, my grandfather's partner to help them. They were like, no, we're only going to allow one attorney to h officially be involved in this case,
which was not supposed to happen. They're not supposed to be dictating that, but they, you know, the judge did, and they tried to use that on appeal, and so the yeah, and so when the judge determined that, you know, because of course neither stark Weather nor a feugate could could afford an attorney, so they were you know, being given given them I forget, yeah, the exact amount that they paid. Yeah, stark Weather's two attorneys twice the amount.
And so when they my grandfather got that. It's not that he was so much like, well, you have to say, memore, it's just he was still in faulted by the way where they were treating him, the fact they didn't let his partner in there, the way they had treated Carol. That he just was like, I'm not even going to cash that. And his partner ended up cashing it and
using it for rent for the building. But my grandfather was just like, I'm just not even gonna take that, and I'm not going to ask Carol for any money. I'm just gonna you know, represent her from now on.
So that was yeah, no, less what I mean he was he was appointed, and I know when when you're appointed, you're not getting the same fees that you would be able to charge or you would charge a private client that had money. And that was great to that point that you made too, because it was a fraction of what he deserved. And we're not talking a lot of money. I think you put in a book that was fifty six hundred bucks or something. Yeah, I think so a
long time ago. But we're talking about incredible amount of time. And when I talk about pro bono was the eighteen years and his personal involvement and when you talk about Supreme Court stuff and filing all of the things that you need to find while it's more complicated and more time consuming. So we're and that's what I'm saying that to make the difference is that some lawyers will do
things completely for free. But then again, there's a vested interest in why they're there's a reason why they're doing that, and that's for further business that does pay. So that's not that wasn't the case with your grandfather at all.
No, in fact, he was trying to keep pressed away from it. He did not like the idea that it was so highly publicized and everything, and I think that was one of that was the reason he was the point at least I heard that that was the case. That the judge just simply knew that he even though the judge did a lot of the things as well, ultimately he knew that my grandfather wouldn't take advantage of it and try to further his own means by you know, representing her.
So right, so go ahead, Oh, I was just going to say real quick, I allowed it.
But yeah, to his credit, he never used it as in any advertising. He never even would tell people, oh yeah I was fugates attorney. He just you know, went on and even if you know, his movies were made and altra of thing, he never you know, used it to the manage or anything.
He just went, okay, well not my dead. Well yeah, that's humility. Yeah. Now, the thing is, we won't have enough time to be able to go through why on earth they weren't successful at all kinds of you know, the state level and then the federal level with appeal.
But maybe we can just say that and for those that are going to pick up the book, that what they can encounter is that there are some legal points that that keep arising to be able to keep her in prison, and one of those is that it's again it's a little bit flimsy in light of all the evidence we've spoken about, but you know, it is a
common question, is that why didn't you just leave? And so one of the legal issues is that there were, at least by someone's testimony, sometimes by Charles stark Weather's testimony, that she didn't leave. Now fifty five years later, though we've had Patty Hurst back in I don't know, the eighties or the seventies, and so we certainly have other people that have been kidnapped and held hostage and then went out and did certain households or or chores or
go to a store with their captor. So we understand more of the psychology, obviously, of what happens in trauma and then people's inability a battered women syndrome, which is especially quite successful in many cases in Canada, but in the United States as well. We do understand the helplessness of some people once they've been traumatized or again all
the behavior from a psychopathic captor. But tell us why essentially she was kept in for those amount of years legally, and then maybe well we'll talk about why you think essentially she was kept in even despite that.
Well, yeah, legally, First of all, Nebraska really had a lot of things where they had to go through a lot of jump through a lot of hoops. And I mean, but first of all, my grandfather knew they'd never get a fair trial in Nebraska because you know, of all the emotions around it, et cetera. And then they had to go through jump through a lot of hoops that they just simply knew, Okay, let's just go through the
process to get out of Nebraska. And just as they got to district court, got out of you know, we're getting out of Nebraska, the legislature passed the law. I forget what the name of it, because I always grew up hearing it as the Keith Carroll in Prison Act. I've called something else, but they literally had said when they were passing it, you know, to keep a certain
person in prison. So they had to go through years more of going through these loops in Nebraska before they finally got to district court, and they wound up being turned down on that.
Which they were very surprised about.
They originally had another judge who had said he was going to give her a new trial and everything, Robert ben Pelp, who's the star of my next book, actually and then he ultimately accused himself, which we later learned was probably because he was related to somebody who worked with us or worked with my family. And so this other judge then said no, and then it went up
all the way to the Supreme Court. My grand my own father, actually had to what do you call it, get passed, you know, to be able to do that, and they got all but one. They only needed one more vote, and they came one vote short of getting a new trial. So unfortunately where they were never able to get her a new trial, but they wound up getting her out on parole or they've got it commuted first, and then we were able to get her out on the parole.
Now, with all the research that you've done, and I mean there's nobody that has you know, gone the lengths that you have to be able to get to the root of this, to get to the truth of this, why do you believe it took this much effort despite your herculean efforts of your grandfather and your father and yourself, I mean everyone in your family. Why did they keep
Carol Anne Fugate in for those many years? What is the real I mean overall, more than anything else, more than you know, a little bit of reasonable doubt or well testimony of this person. It's in a law you know, a law enforcement professional. Tell tell us what your conclusion really is after all of this.
Well, my own personal opinion is that it started with the police who knew they had made a mistake, and instead of instead of admitting they had made a mistake, they.
Covered up for themselves.
In fact, there was an investigation being done about them about how why they hadn't caught Charlie when he had the murder in December, and I think had I think that she was the key because she had given them so many warnings and as an innocent child, was just saying why didn't you catch this? Why didn't you catch that? And if she was not founded, they needed to discredit her. And because if they didn't discredit her, she could discredit them,
and so I think they really went after her. And then once they had done that.
Their word became became law.
Well, I don't want to say law, but their word became the truth, and everybody just kind of believed them and took them at the word. And then it's just gotten into the national kind of vocabulary, if you will, in that the story just got out, and a lot of times people will just repeat a story without questioning, well, where does that come from, how do we know that, et cetera, et cetera, And now people just repeat the story and they're repeating Charlie's testimony verbatim without realizing where
the source was from that. And so now it's just gotten into the as my dad says, it's a it's legendary status, and it's gotten to the point where people are just repeating, well, you know, Carol was just guilty because of this and this and this and this and that sort of then wound up being what people believed and why they wanted to keep her in prison because they had they had grown to believe that she had done all these horrible things, all from stories that basically
began with the police going we have to cover up for ourselves, so Charlie tell us what happened, and then we'll just report that it's the fact. And of course the papers and documentaries today which have no interest in
finding out the truth. As a quick example, actually recently there was a thing on the Discovery Channel where they came and interviewed both my father and I for a documentary they were doing called bi Yeah, Women Killers or something like that anyway, and we gave them all the files of stuff, I mean, things that people would usually love to have, and then entire disc of the entire trial, files of information, not just from our point of view, but this. I was like, here, this is the actual
original objective from the trial from the court. Go ahead and you know, do your investigations work. And then they just they didn't do any of that. They just went out and were like, oh, well, this was what happened, and they just repeated what Charlie had said and made up stuff themselves as well. So that's why I think that's that's what kept her in prison, and that's what kept people just repeating the story that they want to believe.
And what's your personal opinion and feeling about Caroline Fugate period? What? Oh, how do you consider her? I consider her?
You know, she's I've known her, you know, I mean I I've been in and out of contact for years. I haven't really had much contact over the last couple of decades, but very sweet person. The way that people have described her, I think is the way I would always describe her as very timid. She you know, Dinette Beaver put her like she would be the person who'd be afraid of.
Her own shadow.
And while I don't necessarily say she's afraid of her own shadow anymore, but she's she's a very kind of timid, quiet kind of person. And while I know that kind of person can be you know, those timid.
People can be killers.
At the same time, the specifics of what people said that she did, it's like, well, no, that's not the type of person.
You know. That just doesn't go with her character. If for whatever reason she.
Was a killer, she wouldn't have done the specific things that people have said that she had done. You would have just been, you know different. Essentially, I just.
Come back get from this that she was a very strong woman, and the strength came from partially or not partially in for the most part, from your grandfather in terms of someone believing in her and really believing in her, because you got to think, unbelievably, a fourteen year old facing life in prison or the death penalty. The ex boyfriend who told to hit the road becomes your captor, your family is dead, You're the most reviled person in
and out of prison. Very few people believed in her at all, and yet this woman stayed in prison, didn't have any infractions against her, and still looked with hope for the future better herself. And I don't know, I mean, you just make the case. But from all the inferences and all the evidence that I've seen is that she was a victim, an innocent woman. But yet the dignity that she had to acquire and that she did exude through this entire thing is that she is just an
amazing character. I'm sure she doesn't need any accolades from me or from television or rewriting history. She just got on with her life. But very interesting, strong character. Certainly, that's a.
You know, that's a really good point. I guess, you know, when I say timid, that's kind of a you know, the way I was saying is sort of a shallow way of looking at it, because yes, on the outside, certainly she looks very timid. But what she went through, you're absolutely right to have kept the faith that she did, and you know, she never got a single discliny write up at all in York prison, which was a record up to that point, nobody had ever done that before.
In eighteen years.
Or seventeen really of the years that she was actually in the prison, never got was written up for a single disclinary thing. Despite I mean, you know, imagine what she's going through, and she was going through her rebellious teens, but yet she never broke and she kept this faith for all these years. And you know, even now she's
gone through tragedies. She actually was just in a car accident where her husband, she finally did get married after all these years, her husband and she's been in the hospital.
And but you know, of course when wins Gate went out to news, rather than showing facts and everything, they started showing footage from natural born Killers and saying, yeah, you know, the influence for natural born killers was an accent and just all these rumors and you know, but yet she's you know, stayed strong and she you know, has continued to have her you know, strong character showing, and you know, there's a lot to be admired there. She's really a phenomenal woman.
But like you say, in the in the introduction in the prologue that this really is most not about Charles Starkweather. Uh. It is about the American judicial system and you know, in the Nebraska judicial system and a little town called Lincoln. Uh. It's about Carol Ane Fugate and her battle. But it really is about the law and and really a reminder of what the law can do and what it should do, and what it is. And this is just a fascinating, fascinating murder trial and in a real slice of American
true history. And it just happens to the I don't know true crime. This is just history to me and just a fascinating story. And I want to thank you very much Jeff for coming on and talking about it today. If obviously this book is available through Amazon, Barnes, and Noble, but tell us a little bit more how people might contact you, and if you've got a website or if they tell us give us a little bit more information about you and how people might get more information or
get a personalized book or something like that to us. Sure, sure, yeah, you can go to the website at www dot pro bonobook dot com and it has all sorts of more information about the case. Then it's even in the book.
Well, I should say, additional information to what's in the book, photograph, all that sort of thing, and you ordering information on there, you can write to me. You can also download the original transcriptor I had that first hundred pages, and then you can write to me and I can send you, you know, more of those.
Uh.
And my other books are on Bandwagon online dot com. And yeah, and of course, like you say, it's on Amazon, you can order the physical book, look at it on e readers, you know, and on there and Barnes and Noble and you know, basically all of the e readers.
Yeah, great, Yeah, and then then it's it's just a really fantastic book and some great old photos as well that you've included. And yeah, very very interesting. And I want to thank you very much Jeff for this and hope to hear from you again real soon. I know you're working on another project. And so what what is that about.
It's actually about the largest bank robbery in history. And in fact, actually you were saying about the politics. It's I was just thinking about this earlier when you were talking about the politics of County Attorney, because it's it goes more into that there was the guy before Shield was even more colorful and kind of ran link in the way Compone ran Chicago, And it really goes into the politics of how because he wound up again. It was one of the things of getting three people who
weren't guilty. They weren't innocent because they actually were bank robbers of a completely different heights. But they rather than getting the bank robbers that actually had robbed their bank, they instead got these other people, which told did specifically because he wanted to be re elected as county attorney.
So sure. So yeah, it really goes into more specifics.
About the politics of all this sort of stuff. So then that would be any day now.
Oh good. Well, well, we'll hope to hear from you again real soon. And best of luck with this. I know this came out in twenty twelve, didn't it, Yeah, last year. Yeah, it's so amazing. So yeah, well, thank you very much, Jeff, and you have a good evening, and I hope to hear from you again real soon. Thank you, Dan, Thank you very much. That's a good nik