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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening. For more than a century, doctor Thomas Neil Cream has been listed as
a potential jack the Ripper suspect. Indeed, he was a sinister character praying on the unfortunate souls who were forced to make a living street walkers in Victorian London and ultimately led those poor women to an ultimately and torturous death. These crimes eventually branded him the Lambeth Poisoner. However, during the time of the heinous Ripper murders, doctor Cream was
incarcerated in Juliet Prison, Illinois. Over the decades, this fact alone has caused debate as to whether or not he deserves to be under suspicion of being the Whitechapel fiend. Was it possible that Doctor Cream bribed his way out of jail. Perhaps he used a doppelganger to take his place whilst secretly finding a passage to England with murder
and Mind. This fascinating book, told from the standpoint of Cream himself, explains the twisted logic behind his actions, done considerable and meticulous research tracing Cream's life from his adolescent years in Canada to his last moment on the gallows at Newgate. The book that we're featuring this evening is Prisoner four three seven four with my special guest, journalist and author AJ Griffiths Jones. Welcome to the program and
thank you for agreeing to this interview. AJ Griffiths Jones, thank you.
Good evening, then, good evening. Thank you very much for joining us on the program this evening.
You're well.
Now, if you could tell us what your background is and how you came to be the person that wanted to write Prisoner four three seven four, How you came to this story and how you came to want to and be in a position to write this book.
Okay, Well, when I was nineteen, I moved down to London to Let's on to work, and I became involved in going to Jack the Rippertools and the East End and become quite interested in the whole story of Jack the Ripprin, that was the murder mystery of it were, And then started buying books down there and learning about the subject. And I was quite interested in one particular suspect, who was Dr Thomas Neil Queen, who supposedly used to
wear a horseshoe type in. It was said that one of the witnesses that saw Jack the Ripper running away from the crime scene actually saw him wearing a horseshoe type in. So, you know, being young, I thought, oh, well, perhaps it was Dr Crean. So I went to the Old Bailey and had a look at his records there and became very interested in him and spent about ten
years researching his life and looking for clues. Then I actually moved over to Shanghai for ten years and I lived over there as a language training manager and pretty much had to put my research on hold because of being in China. It was quite difficult to actually work
on the research there. We came back to the UK three years ago, and on doing that I decided at the best place to look got the research out again, and I thought the best place to look is to actually ask Joliet to State Penitentiary if there's anything less pertend to his files, and there was. There was a huge file in that and almost two hundred pages in his prison file containing lots and lots of documents, and that actually gave me the evidence of his whereabouts in
eighteen eighty eight. So I started putting the book together.
Yes, now you start this book, you give a little bit of history of Thomas Neil Cream. You say he's a son of a migrant lumber merchant later lumber merchant and born of a god hearing Scottish family. But you take us almost immediately in the book into diving into the action to have a twenty four year old Thomas Neil Cream and he is in Mansfield Street, Montreal, eighteen seventy four, two years into his medical degree at McGill University.
Tell us from there what the situation is with his father and in terms of finances and why and how he has he's in a position that he is in Montreal. The second year into his medical degree. The influence of his father tell us about Thomas Neil Cream at that time eighteen seventy four in Montreal and Okay.
Well, the family actually came over to Canada when Thomas was about six years old, and his father was actually managing a lumber company and quite quickly got to the top of his trade and ended up owning the lumber merchants and Thomas was apprenticed there when he was about seventeen. And it was also during that time that his mother was quite ill and he was the main member of
the family who nursed his mother. And his father thought that he had quite an aptitude for you know, doctoring skills, and Thomas wasn't that interested in working at the lumber firm. It was a little bit too much like hard work for him. He did, he used to teach at Sunday School as well. He's done very talented pianist and musician.
He worked at Sunday School as well, but his father runs when he left school, his father decided that perhaps that would be a good idea to send him to university, and Thomas thought it was a good idea too, so on his mother's death, his father decided to invest money and yet send him there to do his training.
Now you talk about his time at McGill University in Montreal and what he does in his spare time and how he manages his money. So tell us what his life is like, what his lifestyle is like, and to just begin to talk about the emerging and evolving character of Thomas Neil Kream.
Yeah, you can see by some of the photographs in the book, he was a bit of a jack the lad He was a very charismatic character. He liked good clothes. He is a bit of a gambler, you know. He liked the ladies and he liked a good time. So his father found that he was constantly financing his son for you know, the fine things in life that he wanted. And then he had a bit of a wild time
there actually in Montreal. It actually then would believe that it was actually then that he contracted syphilis from the prostitute. So that could have stemmed from his need for revenge over the years living the high life.
Now you say at this time that he contacted syphilis in Montreal partaking in these ladies of the night. As he said, Now, what was the side effects from what from the syphilis? How much did they really know about syphilis at that time, and what was the at least immediate remedy for the headaches and the syphilists that he knew he had contracted.
Okay, well, he was taking small amounts of strictly in a morphine. Initially it was morphine. He was advised by one of his fellow students on what to take, and his friend had actually graduated in venereal diseases and he advised him that taking pinches of morphine would help his headaches that he was having at the time. Initially those were the only he had a few tremors, but those were the only really serious side effects that he had
with the headaches. But actually, over the years he's turned into debilitating migraines where he was getting such pain behind his eyes and it was affecting his vision. He was born with a short sightedness anyway, but his eye deteriorated more quickly because of the syclist. And you know, basically he had to keep increasing his dosage and he was mixing different kinds of opiates to control his nightmares and his migraines and his pains, his aching bones and you know his general condition.
Now you introduce a character that everything was seemed to be going well, and he graduated in March eighteen seventy six doctor of Medicine and Master of Surgery, and he had convinced his father, you right, that to cover his cast returned to Britain and he planned to in rule a postgraduate course at Saint Thomas's Hospital and South in South London. And everything was born according to plan until
he met a miss Flora Brooks. So tell us about how he meets Flora Brooks and her influence and her changing of his life quite dramatically.
Okay, So Flora was actually visiting. She was having a little a little break with some family members and she's visiting Montreal. They just really, over a matter of a few weeks they started going out dating and she was a very attractive young lady and Cream was happy to take her out and have her on his arm. But unfortunately she became pregnant. And what he decided was that he'd already he'd already you know, booked his place on the course and he was definitely going to go to England.
So he decided that the best route to take would be as he was a skilled surgeon himself, was to perform an abortion on her. He thought it'd be quite a simple operation, that he could rid himself as the child and any incumberment and not you know his attachment
to Flora. Unfortunately, he performed it at the hotel. He sent her back home on the train the next day, but she was heavily bleeding and her father out to call in a local doctor who found out what had happened, and in the event, Flora's father marched down to the hotel where Creedan's in the bar with a shotgun and his sons with him and forced him back to their hometown and he ended up marrying Floras clever as he was, though the next morning after the wedding he escaped out
of the window while everybody else was still sleeping, and he took his passage back to England on the twelfth of September. So he was actually only married for one one day with his bride before he actually escaped.
Now, you talk about his diabolical character in his you throughout this book, but to show to demonstrate after a year he gets notice of something happening to his one day marriage his wife. What does he do as a result of that.
Yeah, she died of consumption basically, it's kind of a condition that they used to call for tuberculosis. And she was very very unhappy and it took her a year. She actually wasted away and she died. He decided that he would like to have some money of her, that's her widow, and he sent a letter to the asking for a thousand dollars, which they weren't very impressed with. But then they realized that they weren't going to get
rid of him very easily and saw the Brooks. His father actually owned a hotel, so there were a very rich family. So Creams thought that he could extort some money out of them. In the end, he did settle for just two hundred dollars.
Yeah, incredible, now, you right, he still had these headaches and these plagued by these headaches, but he also had this expert knowledge about chloroform from his training at McGill. And he goes on. Now he also travels to Edinburgh, Scotland. But tell us or in Glasgow as well, tell us what he is, what his impressions are of Scotland, but what he really desires to do and get back to.
Yeah, he's been living the high life at Saint Thomas. But he'd made some good friends down there. I mean, London was quite a vibrant city, probably the same as New York was at the time, and he was having a good old time down there. But he needed to He couldn't get into the college in London to take his final examination, so he ended to put the Royal Colleges and Physicians and Surgeons in Edinburgh, and he found it quite a dreary city. I mean, I suppose it's
very cold and very wet up north in Scotland. And despite him being born in Glasgow, he didn't actually remember anything of Scotland because remember he left when he was only six years old. But he did stay there. He actually he knuckled down and he finished his studies and he took got his master's degree at Edinburgh, and from there he went back down to Saint Thomas's and said
goodbye to his friends. But he was in need of funds after that, so it was back to Canada with him in eighteen seventy nine.
Now you talk about what he's qualified to do, we had the took it upon himself to do the abortion of his pregnant girlfriend. But what is he qualified as and what does he work as? Really?
Okay, he's qualified as a general surgeon and physician, so say the nowadates a general practitioner. And he worked as an obstetric clerk when he was in the Saint Thomas's Hospital. Mainly really, while he was studying, it was to get some extra money and to fund his lifestyle. But when he returned to Canada, he decided that's a good thing to do would be to open a clinic in dunder
Street in Ontario. It was close enough to the family to still be able to get money off his father if he needed to, if he needed to lean on him a little bit, but he was still in the handiness on his own. So he opened this women's twinic basically as an abortionist.
Now you also talk about this time and you had mentioned the horseshoe tie pin, and you say in the book that that Cream really liked this tie pin, this piece of jewelry very much, and in fact had a photo of this when mugging for the photo with this jewelry. But at that time you talk about and we'll talk about its importance later, but you had mentioned it the horseshoe tie pin is given to a friend. Tell us a little bit about the horseshoe tie pin and this exchange apparently supposedly.
Okay, the photograph of Dr Cream with the source sheet type and actually fits on my desk while I'm working, and I actually have that here. He was very attached to it and he used to wear it in his early days in London, but it's not been found amongst his artifacts that were fun. We've got his spectacles which are at the Science Museum, and letters and his clothing was actually brought by Madame Tussorts, his suits and things,
but the horshoe typing didn't turn up. And I do actually believe that the gentleman that I'm investigating now, who we would just call Are, actually had that horshoe typing, that it was gifted to him and the nature.
Go ahead.
Sorry sorry, I was just going to say the nature of the research that I'm doing now, I can't actually identify who Are is at the moment.
You can't identify who this is, and you do just refer.
To this, but I can't tell you. I'm afraid because there will be a second book on that.
Yeah, now you talk about this just for the record.
In this.
Book, you write this book from a certain perspective, and that's from an autobiograph. I guess a fictional stance in terms of ido biographical, but you do take the material again, this is non fiction. You do talk about why you adopted that writing perspective, which is unusual. So tell us why he did do that.
Okay, it's it's quite unconventional. You see. I wanted to write it as a non fiction book because I had all the prison files and I had all the information to put in there, and all the years of research. But as I opened the files and I started reading, there are notes in there from Dr Crane when he was talking to his attorney during different trials that he
was involved in. So I'm actually reading some of the notes in his hand, in his own words, and I really wanted to kind of include that so that people could understand what kind of a character he was. And you know, you've got some there's some messages in there that he really believes that he's not guilty, especially as to the first trial that he was involved in. He honestly believes that he's not guilty, and he's writing these
messages across his attorney. So I actually wanted to use some of those words to express what he was doing and what he was saying and what he was feeling at the time. And it's quite an unconventional way to do it, but I really felt that an autobiographical book would appeal to people that interested not just in Jack the Ripper, but history in general. And also to make it sort of a more interesting story, but from Dr Cream's standpoint rather than from the victim's standpoint or just
a historical standpoint. So that's kind of a decision to do that.
You write in this book about Catherine Hutchison Gardner again just to illustrate or demonstrate the character of Thomas Neil Cream. Apparently she was nineteen years old and she came to him for this abortion, but you didn't have any money. Tell us what he does do and how again from your notes you've garnered how he really feels about this.
Yeah, part of doctor Cream's moods things are related to his headaches and things. And so when Catherine Gardner comes to the clinic and she's very upset, she's become pregnant, she's very young, she doesn't know what to do, she can't tell a family, and you know, essentially Quam's there winning his business and that's the way that he looks at it. He's there to make money and he's there to you know, perform the operation, take the money, and
that be an end to the client. So's she comes along and she's she's getting very upset, telling her sob story and you know, explaining everything. He tells her how much the abortion is actually going to cost her, and she breaks down in tears because she can't actually afford it. She's a housemaid and she doesn't have the kind of money that's needed to actually have the abortion at the clinic.
I think in a moment of almost anger, Doctor Queen Years is a handkerchief covered in chloroform to initially calm her down, but she struggles and so he ends up putting the handkerchiefs over her face and suffocating and leads her outside at the back of the outhouse, which is connected to a lot of the buildings in that street, so he thinks it wouldn't particularly be associated to him, and it caused a lot of bad press and eventually he had to move away from there because it was
all the newspapers and he was questioned by the police and eventually it was Claster a murder by persons unknown and he was cleared, but it still tarnished his name quite badly.
So as a result, he decides to go across the border. So where does he go to in eighteen seventy nine, where does he set up another business?
Yeah, he goes to West Madison Street in Chicago, and he's got a my fin lady called Missus Gregley who helps him sort out his rooms. He's got his own personal lodging and then he's got his clinic next door and he's making quite a good business. It's you know, there's plenty of clientele in the area, and he's running his abortion clinics as well. So yeah, that's right in the huburb of Chicago there, so in a busy area.
Yeah, so he has a Ladies of the Night or a Red Red Lake district, real handy, so he knows is where his business comes from. And he even employs an assistant, Haddie Mac. So again everything seems to be going well for him. But yeah, one night Haddie Mac comes to him and it looks like Hattie Mac isn't been impatient. Tell us what Hattie Mac does and how this proceeds, and he finally winds up in the crosshairs the police with this.
Yeah, okay, so Dr Cream is called out. Now when he's performing the abortions, he doesn't actually do them on his own premises. He will use a room for an hour at a time, and Happy Matt was a lady that would help him. She would she would get the
patients ready before the operation. So Happy Mac calls him that one night, she sends a messenger to go and fetch doctor Queen and it's got a cold and blustery night, and he takes a little bit longer than usual together there and it seems that I mean, Happy Mac in her own way, has also worked as a midwife and an abortionist, a backstreet abortionist, so she's quite experienced. And she decides that, you know, he's taking a long time. She doesn't know whether he's coming or not, and she
decided to start with the abortion herself. Unfortunately, the young girl, her name's Ellen Stack, that he got there and she was you know, pale and clammy and bleeding heavily, and unfortunately she died. So at the time he had been they Doctor Quin had prescribed some strychnine tablets to you know, to help her clear the baby and uh to bring her back to some normal state. And she actually died. And they blamed the chemist for the prescription that was
put up that there was actually too much stryckning in it. Luckily, both of them got off the lack of evidence. I say luckily, but luckily for Dr Crane there was a lack of evidence and himself and Happy Mack actually were able to get off. There was not enough evidence to them incarcerating them now.
As a result, though, you say that doctor Cream kind of changes directions in his medical career, and again in line with some of the scams, insurance scams, setting things on fire. Any it seems anything to make a profit, doesn't have any conscience. What does he do next, what does he decide to sell?
Well, he decides to go on a different tack and he starts mixing up different prescriptions for migraines, skin conditions, pimples, exma, all kinds of kills. But his main remedy that he
came up with was an epileptic cure. And he came together without by mixing strict name and Laudman together and luckily for him, some of the patients quite believed in that then they believed that it worked, and he managed to do quite a good business with that, and he had patients traveling from different parts outside of Chicago to actually come into the city to get the prescriptions and have consultations with doctor Quinn for their epilepsy. So it's a very very lucrative business for him.
You talk about also the morning After pill, which he laces with his favorite drug, Strych nine, and he says that it to just to correct those within do some miscarriage. But again, somebody at clinic dies. So as a result, how does he respond and with with regards to Frank pie at the chemist.
Yeah, he just starts blaming the chemist basically, and you know, saying that well, it wasn't me, it must have been him, means to put too much into the prescription. Now, an interesting point on that actually is there is a Chicago crime writer named Adam Seltzer, and he uncovered a non solved murder of a girl called Alice Montgomery, which I wasn't aware of at the time when I wrote the book.
And she'd actually gone into a hotel bathroom and taken the after Morning pills with the stry name in them, and she died of strict name poisoning in the hotel just really thirty minutes after taking the tablets. So we have actually been wondering there could that have been Dr Queen because it was the same memo and the place, the hotel where she died was very very close to
his officers. It was only three blocks away, so we are actually wondering if there might even be another murder there as well.
Right, So he continues with these despite him narrowly missing incarceration and his freedom being taken away completely, he still continues in the same fashion of creating rolls and having good success with people that somehow or other find relief with that.
Yeah, he thinks he's invincible. So he carries on and he believes that he's found an epolepsy pill. So he carries on with his business and that you know, there's a fair few people by word of mouth that's as sending for the Aftermorning pill as well, so he's a lot of different ways he's doing a good business.
Yeah, now we mentioned this, We talked about this, and I know you can't mention the name, but tell us about the correspondence with this person named Are in London. Can you tell us the nature of the correspondence or can you tell us anything about that correspondence or the frequency of it.
No, it's a person that he met when he was working at Saint Thomasy's Hospital, somebody who he would go out with and soalized with in Lambert and in the West End. Somebody who had a more means and was also in the medical professions. Correspondence between them. They didn't
correspond when Crane was in back in Chicago. They very they had some friends, mutual friends, and they'd heard from each other in that way, but there wasn't any regular letters going backwards and formance I don't have any of those.
Right now in this As you mentioned the two hundred pages in this in the file, it gave you a fantastic idea of what he was really like, and of course that's demonstrating this book. You say that he had an opinion about every city in America, Canada and Europe in regards to these people that he thought were undesirables. Who was he talking about and how did he speak about these ladies of the night.
Yeah, really, he's he's got a desire to cleanse the street. Now a lot of a lot of it comes from his contraction of syphilis early on, obviously from a prostitute when he was in Canada, and he's experienced this life in the East and when he went to live in he had lodgings in Lambeth when he was working at Saint Thomasin's Hospital, and he's kind of got a lot of street walkers down there as well, probably partaking of
their wares. And he's got quite a, you know, a very flambuoyant lifestyle in the way that he likes to mix with people who have money. He likes to wear the best of clothes and finery, and he's got quite a contempt for anybody who's of a low class, you know, and on the streets. So he has he's got a real he's got a real hatred for prostitutes very much.
Now you talk about this, right, you talk about the epilepsy remedy really doing well for him, and one at one point he meets the wife of an epileptic man, Daniel Start, and he was not able to travel to Chicago, but he did believe that this was the cure and so tell us about this relationship that evolved with Julia Stott his wife tell us about this.
Yeah, Daniel Stott was a railroad agent who was sixty years old and he had a much younger wife, Julia was twenty thirty years old, and Julia would frequently travel to Chicago by train to pick up the epilepsicull for a husband who he believed it was working, and as the seizures became worse, he needed his prescription more often, and so Julia would travel in more often. She would go to the dentist, she would pick up bird seed
and go and get dresses made. And her husband would fund this, and so she would travel from Garden Prairie from their home into Chicago, and eventually she became close pretty much within a few months, became close to doctor Cream and they began an affair. In June of eighteen eighty one. It was suggested by Julia that her husband need an increased dosage, which Quam did. He increased the amount of strictning in the capsules for the epilepsy cure,
and Daniel Stott died as a result of that. So, you know, as we can seek, Cream had no desire to run away with Julia start. I don't know whether she had different designs, which I pretty much think she did. But for Cream's part of it, it was actually Julia Stott that administered the strict name and administered that ghost. It wasn't Cream. She was the one who took the tablets, went home and administered into her husband.
You right, though, not to to basically explain this to the audience that what happened is that they had this relationship. But at some point it seemed almost surprising to Cream that she wanted to increase the dosage in kill him basically and again he assessed or thought that she did have some romantic ideas about the two and he didn't. But he also thought he could be in on this scam, just another scam, but he wanted her to administer the
drug so that he wouldn't be responsible. But then in a couple of days he didn't hear from her.
He was waiting to hear from her because he was interested in getting some of the insurance money for his part that he played in it.
Yeah, but at the same time, what does he do A couple of days later, in terms of the Boone County coroner to sort of offset anything that she may do. He was he was an untrusting person, even at this time before we talk about really.
Yeah, that's right, Doctor Cream wrote to the Criner and basically alerted him that it was foul play. Now he's trying to, you know, just put himself there and say, well, you know, yes I did the prescription, but I didn't administrip, and you know, so that he could put the blame on Julia stop. I think he was hoping that, you know, she would she would get sent to jail for that, basically for poisoning our husband. But it backfired on him unfortunately.
Now with this, this is he had a history of weaseling out of and worming out of jams that other people would have ended up in jail forever with this, despite his counterance to him trying to do something to anticipate what her next move will be. What happens with doctor Kreem's ideas about putting the blame on her and how does he respond? What does the coroner do? Tell us about this fascinating exchange?
Okay, well, basically, because Dr Crane had put his name on them, they were both arrested and they were both put up for trial, and the trial went on for the fir few days, and eventually Julius Dotton State's evidenced and made out that it was all of Queen's idea that he was the one. That she knew nothing about the increase in the strict name dosage. She thought it
was the same prescription as usual. Yeah, basically she got a way scot free and Queen Spine guilty and sentenced for the term of his natural life to go to Juliet State Penitentiary.
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Now we're going to talk about this time in Jolie at prison and how secure Cream is in this and how content or not content, but how resigned he is that he's going to spend the rest of his life in Joli at prison. So tell us about And also we didn't mention was about five weeks into this trial they put a man in his cell. He looks like a scrappy kind of guy. What happens again? And this just reinforces his mistrust of almost anyone. Tell us what happens five weeks into that trial with the cellmate.
Yeah, Quam's having nightmares and basically he's screening at night. He's got trenders, he's still got his migraines, and he's being a very disruptive prisoner to be honest, and they put a guy into the cell to basically wheedle out of him what he's done, and Cream comes up with almost a confession to his cellmate to say, well, yeah, I did this and I did that, and puts the whole thing out in front of him and this guy
who's in there just for a minor crime. He then is taken to the sheriff and he tells them what Queen has told them, and it really goes against him.
When he comes up, he called, now this trial, how has it covered? How much media attention is there at that time for this? How big a case is this?
And what is is just the.
I guess the demeanor of Neil Cream throughout this.
Yeah, in the beginning, he's unfazed. He really believes that he's going to get off scot free. There was a lot of media attention. He was in Boone County jail for some time when the trials was going on, before he actually went to Jailiot. But he believes that he's going to get away. He's got a very good attorney from the top company. He's got money to pay for that, and his father's money from my tie out. But you know,
they believe. His family believes that he's dinnocent, and he believes that he will that he will get away with it, so he's kind of quite unstaged by it. And there's actually letters in the prison files where he's making notes and he's telling his attorney the questions to ask for the prosecution team to put to them, and questions to put to Julia's Speltz as well with her actions following her husband's death and the actions of the neighbors and
people around them. And he's actually written notes in there directing his attorney. He actually believes that, you know, he's not going to get that sent down. He really believes he's going to get Scott free of this one.
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Apron a better way to cook. When we spoke last Aja, we talked about finally Thomas Neil Cream sitting in prison, and as we talked about and alluded to in the beginning, this story has ties. And Neil Cream has been a
suspect in the Jack the Ripper murder. So don't have to go through the entire Jack to Ripper murder situation, but tell us about his imprisonment and then tell us a little bit about how on Earth while he's in prison, years later people can regard him as a suspect in those Whitechapel murders.
Okay, Well, the interesting thing about finding the prison files, first of all, was contrary to what was previously believed about Cream. There was some other books it's been written that he worked in the hospital or in the dispensary in the prison. Actually what was found that Cream was sent to do general labor in the yard, first of all, and then after a couple of years he was transferred
to the granite department. We actually have those transfer papers where he was transferred there to do very hard work in the granite department. So it kind of it changed him completely. He loft his hair, his eyesight, deteriorated. He became physically stronger, but a weaker man in himself, you know,
absolutely exhausted every day. That the time in the prison was quite interesting as well, because during his time there there were hundreds of people petitioning to get him out, that they believed that Julia Stott had done the murder and that Cream was innocent. He had a lot of
people on his side. There's actually a sworn statement by a gentleman called DeWitt Jay Edgecomb and he was the Stops neighbor, and he believed that Julia Stott had behaved very suspiciously after her husband's death and she couldn't be found. Cream actually sent his attorney and a private investigator to
go and find Julia Stott and then she disappeared. And on the retirement of Julia Stott's attorney, when he was spoken to, he said that he believed that his own client was guilty and that Cream was serving a life sentence for someone else. So Cream had this to contend with. He's very frustrated. He's getting lots of highs where he believes that the petitions were working. He's going to get out, and then he's got a lot of Lows as well, so he's very up and down in there. During that time.
His father also died, leaving him in inheritance as well, so he's, you know, he's his life is really on a roller coaster while he's in there now pretending to the Jack the Ripper murders. Jack the Ripper Murders were in eighteen eighty eight, and of course Cream was incarcerated in November eighteen eighty one until eighteen ninety one. He did ten years in there. So one of the reasons that he was noted as a respect, as I said, was because of the horseshoe typin first of all, but
that in itself is just one witness statement. Now, there were rumors later on from Billington, who was the hangman who hung Queen at Newgate, that said that when Cream was actually hung that he shouted I'm Jack from the scaffold, which was quite interesting because it only came out about
ten years after Cream had already been hung. There isn't any evidence and there's nothing from any of the families to back that took at all, and there were a few newspaper reports, so there were quite a long time after Cream's death, so there was nothing else in that.
Now there was a gentleman called Sir Edward Marshall Hall, and he thought that he recognized Cream from a bigamy charge, and that he thought that Cream had got a double and he was thinking that he'd defended Cream on this bigamy charge, and Cream's doppel ganga was actually in Joliet serving the prison sentence in his place. I haven't been able to find anything to back that up either. Woods.
We actually have the documents covered every single year that Cream was incarcerated up until the actual commutation of the sentence, when he's least so I think we definitely know where he was during that time.
Now, the idea that he could use a doppelganger, that he could bribeguards, that he could be in another place and get to London and kill those you have explored all those possibilities and ruled that out completely.
Yep, yep.
Yeah.
The documents show where he was and he wasn't in London.
Now you say that the stryct nine, pardon me, the strict nine. The syphilis continued, obviously, And how was he treated in the prison or how was his ailment treated in prison? I know that you write in the book that during the trial, and if I'm wrong about this, that even the prosecution didn't know he was being treated with a morphine or at least his lawyer was providing him supplements or supplement medication for his his.
Lawyer was his lawyer was bringing some of that to him, but nobody was actually aware that he was suffering from that. He was quite a troublesome prisoner, actually, and he ended up being in this cell with very frequent changing occupants in the shell because in the cell, nobody wanted to share with him because of his nightmarees and he's screaming and the trouble that he was causing. And you imagine they've only got one candle to last for a whole month.
So he's trying to write letters, he's trying to work on his case, he's trying to come up with different angles for his attorney to petition, and you know, basically he's not getting very much sleeper, and the syphilis is just getting worse and giving him night tremors and giving him even worse migraine. So when his when his attorney does come, he provides him with some relief and some medication, but as general will Cream is not being treated for anything in the assirmery in the prison.
Now you say that he was released in nineteen ninety one, tell us about what condition he is in that time and what he does after exiting prison.
Yeah, so he's released on the thirty first of July eighteen ninety one. You can imagine that when he's released from prison, he's given back the clothes that you know, he had when he entered the prison. So he's got his seat to morrow and everything is He's very shabby, you know, he's grown a beard, he looks very rough. He's studied to lose his hair. He's a shadow of the man that he was when he went in there.
So the first thing he decided to do was go to his brother's house, his brother Daniel, and borrow some money from Daniel while he's inheritance money from his father's death was being sorted out, and get himself at a suit and he's a lot of Queen's personal belongings were there, which included his medical bag, which he needed because his plan was to get revenger on women at that point.
So he decided in the September of eighteen ninety one, he was only the brothers for six or seven weeks and September eighteen ninety one he stayed to Liverpool and then headed for London checked into Anderton's hotel.
Now, tell us what again, what his physical state is at that time and how bad is his physical physical state at that time before we talk about what he does.
Okay, Well, he's he's quite weak and he looks like a I mean, he's very very slim one. When he went into prison, he's a big man. He's very tall, strong, bills, muscular. He comes out and he's like an old man. His frame is a fraction of what it was when he went in there, and he looks quite unassuming. Actually, he doesn't look like the player that he was when he went in there. So really it's coming out of prison, you know, and finally he can start medicating himself again.
He can start taking his strick name and his coattain and his lord and them, all the things that he used to take, golf pills, all the things that he previously took. You know, he comes back and he can start mixing his concoctions and ridding himself a headaches to some degree, but really, you know, getting his his physical and mental state back to normal.
Now he's back in London where he loves the nightlife and the ladies of the night. But you say he is now after prison and betrayals in his mind and being jailed when he's innocent. At least he seems to almost convince himself of that. What is his mo o now? And who does he pick on?
Now? Okay, we'll be the first thing really is, you know, his revenge on women. The one is from the point that the revenge on the prostitute that gave him syphilists so to rid the streets of the street walkers. But he's also held bent on revenge of you know, anybody who resembles or reminds him of Julia Scott, the woman who essentially put him into the prison in the first place.
So he's finding his feet in Lambuth. He finds some lodgings in Lambeth Palace Road, so it's a good central location for him to be, you know, amongst the lower society. And he meets first of all, he meets a woman called Elizabeth Masters. But he's just he's just dipping his tone into the water, so to speak, and he's just kind of getting used to his area and what he's going to do. So he doesn't murder her straight away,
He just he just arranges to meet her. And then he needs another girl called Matilda Drove, and at first he lets her go and he's just kind of, you know, testing out where do these girls live, where do they hang out? And he's going to some local public houses and he's really just getting to know the area again. He knows it from his youth when he was working at Saint thomasin and he's really just finding his food to getting into the area and you know, meeting up
with several women and they become to trust him. They actually refer to him as Fred. He calls himself Fred, and they trust him. You know, he's a very unassuming doctor bird, and of them feel sorry for him as almost like a little old man to them. And he's got his gold roomed spectacles that he wears, and nobody is really afraid of him. They just kind of get used to seeing him in the area and being amongst them.
Now, is there any incidents that he's involved with at that time? You say, it seems like everyone trust him, but is there any incidents at that time?
There were a few incidents now. The first one is on the thirteenth of October eighteen ninety one, he booked into York Hotel in Waterloo Road. Obviously didn't want to take any of the girls back to his own lodgings. He needed a room for the night, so he booked into the York Hotel and he met a girl called
Ellen Dunwith. So they went back to the room and they had some drinks and he offered us some tablets for her complexion that he said, you know, would have bride from her appearance, So he gave it a strictening, but he knew that he probably only had maybe thirty to forty five minutes before they would start to take effect.
So they left the hotel and took her to a public house for a quick drink, and they went to stand outside the back with the drinks and he left her there and Ellen Johnworth actually died from strictly poisoning there. So yeah, that was the very that was the first incident. The next incident was on the twentieth of October when he met up with Mattilda Closed, the girl that he'd already met. He previously met her and he knew that she trusted him and she recognized him and he poisoned her.
So that first of all, we have the two before he actually decides to leave the city for a while and take a little trip down to Hartsford, Hertfordshire to let the media pool off because there was a lot in the press about the poisonings.
Now this is where he goes to Birkhamsted and he meets a woman named Laura. Again. He thinks he's in love despite his behavior and his murderous past. Tell us a little bit about this relationship and what it seems to mean to him.
Yeah, I actually wonder whether perhaps Laura was the only woman that he ever loved. There's been some recently uncovered photographs of her and shows that she was a very beautiful young woman and go Sir a bit younger than Dr Crane. She's living with her widowed mother, not rich by any means, but very attractive and Dr Crane takes the night together. He brings them up to London to the West End to see a show. He takes the night of the bite in the carriage in Hertfordshire. On Sundays,
he at times church with them. He eats at their house he moves to a lodging house for a few weeks near to their home so that he can spend time with them, and he gains the trust not only from Laura but also from the mother as well. And not very long, probably a courtship of about two months, and they decided to become engaged. I do believe that he loved law She's probably the only woman that he loved.
Now, how do we get to or how does he get to be accused of being the what they title him as the Lambeth murderer or the poisoner? So tell her again. It's when things seem to be going well, there just seems to be another incident that seems destined to derail Neil Cream. So what happens and this little party has gone on?
He he actually had to return to Canada to finalize some funds, to secure some funds from his father's death. The family had sold the property they had his father's house to sell, so Queen had to go back and get his money from there. And while he was away, he decided that there hadn't been enough pressed about Ellen donwith that he would go to the Metropolitan Hotel and he ordered some circulars to be printed. Now, actually they would never never distributed. He asked them to be distributed
at Easter and they never went into circulation. But that was basically the managers at the hotel are alerting the authorities that you know, this gentleman has ordered these flyers to be sent around saying that you know, this girl has been murdered. And then he starts to think about again starting money, so he starts writing blackmaile letters. Now, the one goes to the W. H. Smith family making out that they were involved, and there was another one.
To a.
Countess Russell and a doctor Broadband, and he's basically he's he's accusing these people of being involved in the deaths. And when he gets back to the UK, using his brain, he actually uses Laura and asks her to write to the blackmail letters on his behalf, and she does raise some concerns as well, you know, why are you accusing
these people and what does it mean? And he's saying, well, if you write the letters, you know it's you're doing a good turn for a friend of mine that he knows that these people have been involved in the murders. And you know, I think we need to write the authority. So he actually gets Laura to write the letters for him, but he gets a little bit, a little bit carried away, and as his poisoning does, he meets another lady and her name is Lou Harvey. And now Lou Harvey is
quite smart, and she actually tricked doctor Quam. They arranged to meet and he gave us some pills, but unbeknown to him, she threw them over the embankment of the river and Queen didn't expect to see her again. From there, he poisoned another two girls called Emma Shrivel and Alice Marsh. So now he's got what he thinks are five poisonings in Lambert, and he's pretty much thinking, well, I've got away with it, and he's carrying on with his daily life.
But Quam's always one that he likes to talk about his escapades and what he's been doing. And he meets a former detective from New York who's called John Haynes, and they're walking enough to dinner one night, and Cream starts pointing out the doorways and the alleyways where these girls have lived and hung about, and the names, and he seems to know just a little bit too much
about the murders. So John Haynes reports this to a friend of his, Inspector Turnbridge, that works for the Bow Street police station, and this is where Queen then gets arrested for the murders and obviously gained the Monica, the lamb of poisoners.
Now again he is faced with, you know, one of the worst situations of his entire life. How does he conduct himself? What's his representation? How does he deal with the police in his interview? Tell us a little bit about how things move forward after he's arrested.
Okay, he is quite full of brother so most of the time he believes that a reprieval will come, that you know, he'll be set free. And the heart the thing that changes, doctor Quaane, is when Laura Sabatini, his fiancee, is asked to come and take the stand and explain her part in the Black Male letters, and she can't look him in the eye. Now, I think this is part of my reason why I really believe that he did love her. He changed completely after that. He changed
his will. He'd initially left money to Laura in his will, but you know when he passed away that she would have everything, and he was going to set her up in business as a dressmaker in the West End. So when this incident happens in court ware, she can't look at him. He goes back to his cell and he starts writing letters. You see that one of the one of the letters is actually printed in the book that he wrote to Laura, saying to her, they've made a mistake.
It wasn't me. Come and visit me and you know, everything will be all right. But she doesn't. Laura doesn't turn up, so Cream sends for his sister Rachel to come over. And it's when Rachel comes over and Rachel kind of talks to him, and she knows. She knows that he's changed, she knows what he's done, and he's resigned to the fact that, yeah, this is going to happen. I'm going to hang for it. They caught me, and you know, it's the end for me.
So it wasn't that long till his date with the Hangman November eighteen ninety two. Yeah, they asked him if he had anything to say, if he had any statements you could say after what he saw is the ultimate betrayal, Was there anything else? He said? Officially? Tell us about that.
Anything that he said.
Officially.
Officially, now we've got the rumor from the hangman, but you know that he shouted, I'm Jack. To be quite honest, he he did. He probably did mutter something, but we don't believe that it was a confession of any any kind at all. The night before the chaplain came to him, he said his prayers and he said, you know, is there any final confession? There was absolutely nothing to tell them. He had nothing to say. He didn't have anything to say to God. He sat and he listened to the prayers,
but he had no regrets. He believed that he'd been doing it, doing the favor to society, to rid the streets of these women. And yeah, no, he he passed pretty peacefully. He went to the scaffold, and it was quite instant.
You said, he changed his will, and he in his will, he changed and gave everything to his sister Rachel.
Yeah. Yeah, that was when Laura didn't go to see him at the prison. He had the attorney change it back again. And yeah, his sister had his effects. It was quite interesting to note, actually, but we do know that he's thought by Madame two Swords for a hundred times, which was quite a lot of money in those days. And they had a wax books Sigret of Cream made and it was actually in Madame two Swords up until about the nineteen fifties. But his actually sad.
Why do you think that of all the suspects, Neil Cream seems to have dominated some of these conversations about likely suspects.
I think the fact that we know that he's capable of murder. It's a different am o completely, But he's got the he's got the physicians, the surgeon's skills for the japer murders. He knows London very well. He's Philip Bravado. He believes that he's above the police, that he can he can walk around and commit his crimes and he won't get caught for it. He's also got it's all that. Also the revenge. I think the fact that he picked his suspects. He's sorry his victims were all prostitutes as well.
I mean that he has that in common the JAP and I think also you know the rumors from the hangman's claim, and we have the horseshoe typing thing. But I think he's been a very interesting suspect because there's been so many conflicting things written about him that there was no actual solid evidence to where he was. There was rumors he could have had a doppelganger, he could have paid Governor Peiffer to be let out of prison, he could have done this, he could have done that.
You know, there hasn't actually been any actual evidence until I managed to get hold of the file and then we can actually see where he was and what he was doing and pinpointing, you know, from year to year where he actually was. He's a very complex character and he's a very interesting character. And I think syphilis in Victorian London also plays a big part. I mean, maybe the real Jack the Ripper also had syphilis and similar symptoms.
Perhaps, well, it's likely, just it's a pretty good assumption and that may have happened. It's interesting when you talk about when you demonstrated this book Prisoner four three seventy four, that the mls, like you say, are completely different, and so Jack the Ripper seems far less sophisticated than than
this person that you've painted a vivid portrayal of. And this person almost seems again somewhat like H. H. Holmes in terms of a surgeon and a scammer and a ladies man, and a again very very complex compared to the portrait we have obviously of Jack the Ripper being much different.
I think Jack the Ripper, I think Jack Ripper was very clever and different mind though, because he managed to alead the place. You have a lot of place on the different beats around the murder areas, especially around the Mica Square murders, there are policemen walking on two beats. I think it was Harvey and Makins, if correct me if I'm wrong, but we have these two policemen walking down parallel straights where the murder is actually taking place in a very small area. So you know, in that way,
Jack the Ripe is very clever. He knows who's going to be where, he knows that he can commit the crime, he knows how much time he's got. I think it's a quite complex actually, when you start looking at the case.
Closely, how in your research, how affected again he was doing. You write that he was doing a combination of at some point to treat the headaches, morphine, cocaine and strychnine. So how much did drugs affect his behavior? Either at trial or before trial, just in this basically in his everyday life. How much was that a factor in some of this?
Yeah, Queen was very weakened and in his mind physically as well. He didn't look a great deal of pain, and he knew that at some point he was going to become bedridden. And you know, he was having a lot of a lot of trends and things and knew. I think that's part of the reason why why he was basically making his will and getting engaged to Laura. He wanted somebody to look after him. He wanted a wife. He knew that he was going to you know, he's
going to need somebody to take care of him. And I think that played a big part in his in his woman of Laura. So I actually believe that, you know, when he went to the scaffold, he pretty much had enough. He was he was a small, weak, weak man compared to the player that he was in his younger days. The ten years in Joliet had really taken their toll, and the fact that he'd been deprived of his drugs and then able to take them again, you know, it affected his mental to stay a great deal.
You talked about looking at the available material before you delved into this and undertook this investigation. We'll say how far off the mark was most of the most of the literature about Thomas Neil Cream.
Very there were a lot of things that were not known in detail. For example, let's say we didn't have anything any evidence against Julia Stott per se. There was no statements from the neighbors who'd seen what she was doing, in the way that she was behaving and where she's gone. We have the evidence from Julia Stott's attorney that actually thought that his own his own client was guilty. I
had that they were also. I mean, there's a couple of books written some probably twenty thirty years ago that have Cream working in the infirmary and dispensing medicines in the in the prison. And at the time when I read the books, I thought, I really wondered that why would they allow him to do that, known that he's
you know, he's been incarcerated for murder by poison. And as it turns out, when I've got the paperwork through, no, it's all actually in there that he's doing hard labor, and you know, at some times he's he's quite insolent, and he refuses to work. But at no time was he ever in the infirmary. He's doing labor. And then,
as I said, in the granite department. And he's got a few times when he has to go into solitary confinement as well, and they handcuff him to the door and he's put in the dark for eight days at a time basically for refusing to work. So that there's a lot of there's a lot of things in there that you know, we actually didn't really didn't know about him. It really gives you, especially the notes handwritten by Claim, it gives you an idea. You can compare the two
sets of notes. One is where he's very determined. He's in court and he's writing to the attorney. He's convinced that he's going to get off with this. He's got a plan and this is what we need to ask him, and this is what we need to say. And then we've got the very mellow, romantic doctor Cream who's writing these love notes to Laura and you know, basically again proclaiming his innocence and come and see me. Everything's going
to be all right. They've got the wrong man, And yeah, it's very interesting to see the two sides of his characters. He's almost like a jackal.
And Hyde, and he's very what you write in this book.
It seems that he has the confidence from and this you know, this lack of this invincibility, but he also has the confidence to lie and rebound and adapt to whatever needs to get done, whatever that may be, whether it's insurance scam or a fire or killing someone or until we get to Laura, where it just seems a different time in his life completely, and I agree with you, it seems like just once, maybe just one person in his entire life, he cared a shred a morticum of emotions about.
Yeah. Yeah, I think pretty much thinks she was the only only one in his love life. Anyway. I think his both. I mean, he's very close to both of his parents that came from quite a religious family. His mother's death was very hard on him when he was young, and then he took his father's death quite hard as well while he was actually inside Joliet. So I think, you know, from that point to be very close to his family, but he's still got this this deep insect
his woman hatred. I mean, he even hates his sister in law, his brother Daniel, petitions a lot get Thomas out of prison, but he's got this deep hatred of Daniel's wife when he goes to stay there, just the
way that she is. She's a little bit brave and she's outspoken, and he's this he's got this hatred who believes that woven have you got a place and they should behave in a particular way, which probably stems from his mother because obviously being deeply religious and his father being the bread winner and controlling the family.
Well, I don't think it begins to explain the murderous career of Thomas Neil Cream, but certainly it is a fascinating story and investigation that you've undertaken to I think finally set the record straight that it would be highly, highly impossible or improbable that Thomas Neil Cream is Jack the.
Ripper, Yes, right completely.
Now, before I let you go again, we've walked around this sort of subject. But you said that it would be a subject of a sequel or follow up to this book. So whatever you can tell us about that, please tell us about that.
Okay. So, after I'd finished writing Prisoner for three seventy four, I looked at the various people that Thomas had been in contact with when he was at Symtomasis and around the Lambert area and in communication with, and one particular person that had cropped up in his life is the
character of Art. So I've spent the last year and a half investigating this particular person, and I've uncovered a lot of letters in an archive and I haven't been read before that really goes to incriminate this in the White Chapel murders. I really can't say too much about what I've found because there are a lot of things that still need to be investigated. But this is an ongoing thing that I'm looking into now with the White
Chapel murders. So hopefully I've got a good suspect and the book are is for Ripper I'm hoping will be out at some point next year.
That sounds very exciting, sounds very very interesting. Again, any new information is just you know, people are waiting for the ripperlogists and all the fans of this case, these are waiting.
Yeah, these letters have been These letters have been tucked away for a very long time, not read. I actually got quite ill when I opened them. Up because they were all covered in dust and spalls, and some of them are a little bit fire damaged as well. So it's very, very exciting to actually read them. Things that come from the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties that haven't been opened before, and I was able to open them
all up and get that information. So again it's it's just been a case of knowing where to look and luckily I managed to pick the right place.
Wow, that's amazing. We look forward to that in the near future. Thanks, thank you, Thank you for those people that want to find out more about Prisoner four three seven four and the work that you do. AJ. Do you have a Facebook page or a website that people might refer to. How can they contact you or information?
Yeah, if you have a look on AJ Griffith Jones on Facebook. I'm on there. There's also a book group called we Love AJ's award winning Books. People. It's a closed group of people can can join the group and they can find about ongoing projects that I've got there. I'm also I've written a series of mystery stories. Have they a series of five? There's actually the fourth what is coming out in May. So anybody wants to join the book club, or have a look at my author
page on Facebook. All the informations up there about the things that I've got ongoing, lots of exciting projects underway there.
Sure well. I want to thank you very much for aj for coming on and talking about prisoner four three seven four. It's been fascinating. Thank you very much, and you have even.
Andy. Thanks very much, Don bydbye, good night.