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On a December night in nineteen seventy eight, Courtney lond O'Neill's mother, teenage Kim Byers, saw her friend Rob Piecete alive for the last time at the end of his shift at the pharmacy where they both worked. Fifteen year old Rob outside to speak to a contractor named John Wayne Gacy about a possible job.
That night, Rob.
Became Gasey's final victim. His body was later found in the Splains River. Kim's testimony, along with a receipt belonging to her, found in Gasey's house, proving that Rob had been there, would be pivotal in convicting the serial killer who assaulted and killed over thirty young men and boys. Though she grew up far from Displains, Courtney has lived in the shadow of that nightmare keenly aware of its impact on her mother. In search of deeper understanding enclosure,
Courtney and Kim travel back to Illinois. Post Mortem transforms their personal journey into a powerful exploration of the ever widening ripples generated by Gasey's crimes from the nineteen seventies to the present day. His shadow extends beyond the victims, families and friends. It encompasses the displain's neighborhood, forever marked by his horrific murders, generations of the victims, families and friends, those who help the rest and convict him, fandom communities, and.
Many others.
Layered in thought provoking post Mortem is a complex story of loss and violence, grief and guilt, and the legacy that remains long after a killer is caught.
The book they were.
Featuring this evening is post Mortem What Survives the John Wayne Gacy Murders, With my special guest journalist and author, Courtney lund O'Neill. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Courtney lund O'Neill, thank you so much for having me, Thank you so much, and congratulations on this book, post Mortem. I know it's a long time coming.
Yes, It was many years of research and sitting with this story, and I'm proud and I'm humbled, and I'm grateful that it is almost out in the world.
Yes.
Absolutely, let's go right back to nineteen seventy eight and explain your mother, Kim's Kim Buyer's involvement in this way before you were born. One summer day in nineteen seventy eight and Desplains, Illinois, Rob Peast walked into Nisson Pharmacy just about eight blocks from his home to pick up some milk. Tell us a little bit about the interaction and a little bit about your mother that day in nineteen seventy eight.
Yes, it was a summer day before her senior year year of high school and before Rob's sophomore year. They're both going into their sophomore and senior year of high school, different high schools. Rob was at Maine West, my mom
was at Maine North. And you know, this kid came in and he seemed nice and friendly, and there was a lot of turnover in the pharmacy, so she thought, hey, maybe maybe he might be a good coworker, and so she had him write down his information, and long story short, that he would end up working there because he really wanted to save money for some goals and dreams he had, and one of those was to save money for a car, so this would help jump start.
Him doing that.
And my mom has always been a very outgoing, friendly, warm person, can be a friend to anyone, and you know, for her, it was just like making a new friend, and she was really happy and excited to see that he would kind of join, you know, that family at Nisan pharmacy.
Yeah, she's right that she became friends with Rob, but also another friend that worked at the pharmacy delivering named Nathan. So they were all interested in health and athletics, and they were both all of them.
They were interested in gymnastics.
Yes, they were all athletes and very very strong gymnasts. And you know, back then also gymnastics and cheer was viewed differently. It was, you know, males participated freely and different than today. I think things have changed in how we view kind of like kind of that musculature.
Even my mom's.
Boyfriend at the time, Corey, he did gymnastics, So it was it was a.
Very popular sport. It helped keep you.
Fit and flexible, and so yeah, it was it was fun. I think to be have a friend group based on kind of this love of being athletic and doing tricks and things like that. It's a unique sport for sure.
Now you take us to December eleventh, nineteen seventy eight. Him was working the five pm shift and Rob was supposed to come in a little bit after that. So tell us about the shift and what happens with Rob once he gets to the pharmacy. Give us as you write the details of what happens that early evening.
Yeah, his mom brings him over to work, and it's just a regular kind of drop off for missus Peace and Rob Peace. And it begins as a regular shift. It's really cold this night in December, with an intense windshill, and you know, they're doing their regular type of pharmacy duties. Rob is stocking shelves, my mom is kind of working the counter. But during the shift, a couple important things happened.
And the first thing is that my mom was very cold that night and she needed to borrow a jacket as this wind she'll whipped in through the front door.
Of the pharmacy.
And she had asked Rob if she could borrow his And you know, being a good friend, He's like, of course you can. You can borrow my jacket. So that's the first important thing of that night. And the second important thing is that my mom was developing some reprints from Homecoming, the Homecoming dance pictures of her and her boyfriend Corey, and she wanted to gift one to her sister for the upcoming Christmas holiday. So she fills out
this form of you know, developing these images. And back in the day, I'm sure some listeners will remember, I remember myself that you had to write things down.
You couldn't just.
Go online and order some and have them be shipped your house, right, And so she had, you know, written this down and worn off the receipt, and she went to you know, dispose of the receipt and then had this feeling to save it. And she's thought a lot about that feeling over the years and decades after this this day, because why would she save the receipt.
She didn't need to.
She worked there, she could go get the pictures, but she slipped into the parka pocket and she thought, maybe you know, Rob might find it later and ask her about the pictures, because they also beyond gymnastics, shared an interest in photography, specifically nature photography and going out and
taking pictures of elements in nature. But it was a combination of you know, this weird, intuitive, strange feeling to like, you know, stop in her tracks and put this receiat in the pocket, and then kind of that kind of logical part of the brain that says, oh, well, you know, maybe Rob will find this. I think it was this combination of both of like this strong intuitive feeling paired with this kind of logical teenage brain moment of yeah, it would be fun for my friend to, you know,
ask me about my pictures. So those two things are important because you know, as they're doing their shift, this contractor is in there and he is remodeling shelves for the pharmacy owners Larry and Phil tworfe. My mom had bumped into him a couple times that night. She felt like he just kind of was taking up space. He wasn't friendly, he didn't like say hi to her, and he was kind of nondescript, you know.
But she was just like, who's this guy?
And he would leave something in the pharmacy come back later that night, and that's when he would ask Rob to come outside talk about and possibly go sign new higher paperwork. And when Rob goes outside at the end of the night, you know, he takes his jacket back, which of course has that film re seat in it.
That jacket travels back to John Wayne Gacy's house, and Rob disappears and is never seen again, essentially, and the case unfolds with this very dominant narrative of Caasey being this democratic citizen, this entrepreneur, someone that people can trust in the community, versus this seventeen year old girl who said, hey, my friend Rob went outside to speak with this contractor about this job and never came back. And Gasey immediately was saying, oh, she doesn't know what she's talking about.
She's this young girl. You know, authorities are going to trust me essentially as this kind of upstanding citizen, you know, so she felt powerless almost immediately within this kind of situation. Eventually that Racy would be found on Gaysey's property, proving that Rob was there, and then of course, you know, the rest of the case begins unfolding and other victor are found.
You talk about that being one of the important things that happens in nineteen seventy eight with your mother is that she begins to write a diary and just to chronicle the whole year and everything that was coming up in that exciting new year for her. So you take us in the book to dis Planes in twenty twenty two,
you call this chapter. You explain about that it had been about five years since you first began your excavation of displanes and its history, and tell us about this untraditional path that you went from and four years of researching and where you are in twenty twenty two with this.
In twenty twenty two, I take kind of my big research trip back there and the book, my book post
Mortem is a breeding narrative. So there's a strand that takes place in the past, you know, nineteen seventies to the nineteen eighties, and there's a strand that takes place in the present, which is twenty twenty two, my big research trip mostly and they kind of braid and the themes crossover in the timeline and places crossover in a way that is strategic to kind of give the reader a sense of place and time from how the past and present are so fluid and kind of speak together
without us kind of knowing or be incognizant of it. And so in twenty twenty two, I'm back there in this space. I'm looking at some of the big places in the community where this kind of case unfolded, whether that be Gaycy's old lot where Nissan Pharmacy was, I go to downtown Chicago and meet with the prosecutor, Terry Sullivan. So for me, it's a trained creative nonfiction writer. You know,
this is type of like immersion journalism. It could be you know, it's kind of like a leg of literary journalism, but you kind of try to immerse yourself to kind of feel this sensive place and how it can inform
a piece of writing. And so for me, it was really important to go back and not kind of just study this from the periphery or like I had my mom's diaries, like you said, which was so immersive, and I don't think this book would have ever come to be it on the good one, I would have written it without her diary because it felt so it's the heart of the book to me, because it's so raw and real, and that's she's representing this human experience that I think that we can all connect to in this
really visceral way about what does it mean to be a seventeen year old girl going through, you know, being a prime witness and one of the most famous murder cases in American history. And it's heavy and there's a lot of questions to ask and a lot to dissect there. And so I wanted to go back to displaines. And my mom actually joined me for a bit of that trip back, and you know, we went to where her
apartment was. And this helps me reimagine the nineteen seventy strand a lot better in the book, because I can think about, you know, what did it mean for authorities to knock on her door and tell her to watch out? You know, if she was telling the truth that Gacy had taken rob who knew if he had accomplices, and
who knew if they would be after her next? Right, So going there and seeing the steps and seeing the front door she walked out of, looking at her bedroom window, this all helped this like raised the hair on my arms. I mean, just being in a place and putting a place to story was so so powerful to me, not just as a daughter, but as a researcher, a writer, a storyteller. Because I wanted to push myself to do the best job I could, and so I was really grateful to be able to spend time in this place.
You write that you have some of the entries put in this book, and so she writes some very profound things right away in that diary. You write that she didn't even know till the next day that Rob hadn't come home. So she went to school and a counselor spoke to her. So she writes along the way this unfolding nightmare, but also all kinds of her feelings about everything that's surrounding this case, and then the reporters that soon come in order trying to get her to say something.
So at this almost seventeen years old, this incredible experience that she underwent.
Yeah, yeah, I mean life changing, life altering. I think there's no kind of ways something or someone can prepare you for what she experienced, you know, or for what these families or other friends of victims experienced.
You know.
As a storyteller, I really wanted to go deep instead of wide, and so I feel like with my mom, as you know, a main character in the story, I could really really go deep and have one kind of experience, you know, tied with her friend Rob really illuminate a larger picture and how we can think about these horrific crimes in a new light, and how you know, survivors' stories are worth telling and they are worth paying attention to and to perhaps pivot, you know, attention from you know,
John Wayne Gacy to other tenants of this story, because you know, as her daughter, I got kind of just tired of the media fascination with Gacy because as I studied him through my research and over the years, I mean, I feel like he's a boring person that did these really horrific things, and so that was really important. That's always been important for me in this story, I think.
And so just thinking about all the ways my mom went through this and then her willingness and openness and readiness to tell this story, I think she was kind of tired of these stories too, and so we kind of met the really interesting space, you know, when I entered motherhood and you know, she's my mother, and we're like, how did the shape you're mother?
And how did this shape your adulthood? How did this shape the.
Rest of your teen years, your twenties and so on and so it became kind of this beautiful experience and how I got to meet my mother when she was a kid essentially right, she wasn't eighteen yet, and I don't think we all get to do that with our parents. So from all these different layers, I felt very grateful for this experience with her. To tell the story for the Whier culture, but also to get to know her on this really intimate level felt really special, and it bonded us in a really unique way.
Let's es this as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now when you finally got you write that in twoenty and seventeen, your mother was not so warm to the idea at all, and so there was an evolution of sorts in that coming to this project and helping you in the way she really did. But you talk about in twenty seventeen it was much different than twenty twenty two when you talk about those interviews that your mother granted you and all the conversations you had.
But the official interview she.
Talked about her reaction, how angry she was at first Gasey Gaysey denying that he had seen rob that night, and so that was her first anger in that she seemed to be treated by authorities. So you also talk
about though, that she had her suspicions. And this is one of the important things that you spoke about was the reaction your mother had, and you later about the reaction from the brothers that were the owners of the pharmacy in their reaction to giving information out about what they considered their friend John Wayne Gacy.
I don't know what to say about that.
I think that there was a lot of missteps that night, and one of them was perhaps withholding information for the Peace family and my mom and I really being there and reflecting back on everything, and we really, we really felt that was unfortunate. But then again, you know, she she shared with me like her own regrets, like why didn't I go after him? Right, there's this type there's a survivor's guilt, like how could we have done things differently?
But in terms of like the brothers, I don't think at the time my mom knew like Gaycy had known them, because you know, she's just working there, right, But to learn perhaps later that you know, maybe at least one of them did, there was a lot to like take it and think about.
You write the horror that your mother encountered when she went to work at Nissan Pharmacy. You talk about December thirtieth and all the reporters there and everybody yelling her name and asking her questions, and they're having to hide out in the back. Very dramatic encounter your mother had.
I developed that scene based on the diary. So of course, like not that all the diary entries are in the book, right, some of them were used to recreate scenes that I would couldn't have known otherwise, Right, So that was based on an entry I had read. You know it is it is kind of horrifying to had to hide out from the media, and sort of circle back to your
other question about her kind of being cold. Right, when I first start asking questions about this case, I think it's really easy to see why, Right, she had all of her power and voice stripped from her as a as a as a young woman, and why would you want to feel that way again, because it's not a good feeling. But I think she realized as her daughter.
And you know, I'm not just some like a couch critic, like I have my PhD, professional training and writing and research, and you know I was someone that she could trust with the story as a daughter and storyteller. And you know, and she has read this book and she she loves it. And for me, that just that makes me really happy, you know, because I think if there's one person that I cared about who if they liked this book, it would be my mom. And so the fact that she
does is means the world. So, yeah, it was important for me to always stay honest to the page Tod, never pretend like something else was going on to sugarcoat it. Right, Yes, like she was cold, but part of the unraveling of this story is to show the reader why, right, she was cold because she was treated like this as a seventeen year old. So telling this story actually gives her power and gives her a voice in a way that she never really was able to have it.
Yes, you include some of these diary entries that are again very profound in the information and parted like the ongoing search for Rob. But then finally when Rob's body is found, how she gets notified and just her general feeling right after that.
Yeah, I mean it's it's sad, don't I Mean, I think she was like physically ill. I mean just the whole thing made her feel sick, and I think it would make anybody feel sick. It made me feel sick researching it. It's it's something that you never ever want to happen to anyone in the world, and especially someone
that you know, and it happened in her life. I've really been interested in this idea of closure, and there's all these kind of steps in the justice system that makes people think like there is closure, but I don't think there's ever closure. And so that's something I've wrestled with in this case in other cases that I study, and I think the closure isn't real, like not completely.
I think, you know, you can get make steps towards it, but I think remembrance and honoring is kind of what we can do, you know, to keep people living when
their lives have been taken from them. And so I think part of her kind of part in this book and story is that, and to keep you know, her friend's legacy live and to try to kind of decenter Gaysey, you know, you know, in any way we can, even if it's kind of this microcosm, you know, shift away from him, not trying to like, you know, change everything in the world.
Around.
You know his story, but you know, if we could do one good thing, what could it be?
And this was kind of that.
You chronicle in this book, the interesting relationship that develops maybe it's a natural relationship that develops with the Peace family, and your mother finds this a very important outlet for her grief, and you chronicle all the things that happened with the family and right up to her testifying at trial against John Wayne Gacy, very very strong testimony.
And again not all the time did.
Your mother read revert to her diary for information to in part, but that there was these crucial times when she certainly did so.
In writing her diary, she would like, well in December and kind of January nine, need seventy eight nine, need
seventy nine. They were pretty much daily because there was a lot to try to keep track of and process in the moment as things are unfolding, as bodies are coming out from under the house, and you know, the media is at her doorstep, like you said, and then you know, like grief comes in waves and you get like a little prick and maybe there's a week or a month off, but especially approaching trial, like there's a chunk of time off because she's starting school as a
university student. But they start back up again, like you said, when you know she is she gets her she's called to trial, and it's kind of like this way to kind of manage the unmanageable, right, this act of writing, and it's feels like the one power she had, right, you know, she doesn't know she can't change, but have her friend. She she can't always get authorities to listen to her, but she can keep track of this herself
and her own words. And you keep calling you keep calling them profound, which I think is really interesting, you know, for a seventeen year old to have such profound thoughts and ideas. And I think that's kind of the beauty of journaling or keeping a diary during seasons of life's intense moments, because you can kind of find yourself in writing where you can't always in the chaos of the external world.
So what I found so interesting was the that your mother was a very very strong witness testifying at the trial. In fact, I found it very interesting that there was no cross examination by the defense lawyer Sam Amaranti.
Yeah, I found that interesting as well.
Yeah, did you find interesting about that, like, did you expect that.
Well, normally they might not cross examine somebody much younger, they wouldn't cross examine someone so vigorously maybe, but being this key witness, I mean, even though their defense was insanity, I just found it strange that there was no cross examination.
Mm hmmm, yes, yeah, no it did.
And I just pulled open the book and I'm in that section right now and looking at it.
And that took a lot for her to be up on that stand.
And something that she's always told me was that, you know, she had to point out Gacy in that room, and there was an interesting moment of her of him not wanting to make eye contact with her, and you know, she kind of wanted him to make eye contact with her and say, hey, like do you remember me? Like here I am and I am telling these people the truth again and there's nothing that you can do now. And it seemed like a very coward move, I guess,
to not look at her. And I always found that interesting about that scene.
Yes, you just go on, and it speaks about it in the documentary, the Netflix documentary, just the performance of Bill Kunkle and the crawl space and the dramatic throwing of the photos through the crawl space, but that Gasey's only defense was that he was insane. So it wasn't very strong in the obvious definition of insanity with all the planning and deliberation, but that he was just psychotic.
And so it was fairly hard, uphill battle for the defense to try to prove that he was not sane at the time of all these thirty three murders.
Yeah, yeah, it was.
It was uphell battle. But it was something you know, I had talked to Terry Sullivan in to and it was something that he was most afraid over because you know, like his friends had seen Gacy in the headlines and said, man, this guy is crazy, and Terry and you know, Terry Sullivan's like, oh god, you know what if the jury
finds him crazy? And so it was it weighed on his heart as he went through this trial, and he told me that he didn't I don't think he knew that Kunkle was going to throw the photos, but he has always praised, you know, praised him, and that it was incredibly impressive to be in that room when that happened. It was incredibly emotional. The image, the vistual image of each photo of each victim moving through the crawl space like a lot of them had. So yeah, it wasn't
uphol battle, but it was a real fear. I think that you know, it could have gone that way.
Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
Now, what was your mother's reaction after her testimony and then you offered the reaction when she heard of the sentence that the jury decided on.
Well, I think there is a sense of grand relief that all of this was not for nothing, right that you know, she didn't fly here. All these people, all these mothers and you know, girlfriends, neighbors, all these people didn't come here, you know, to be on the stand and then you know, have him get off in some way like they felt like they had participated in something.
And you know, nothing could bring back the people, the young men and boys that Casey's hook, you know, he took their lives, but they could try to bring some form of justice to them. And I think there was this kind of exhale because I felt I feel like there was a lot of like folding of one's breath during this because you know, nothing is guaranteed, and and after you know, he was found guilty and he you know, was going to be sentenced to death, my mom kind.
Of checked out.
She would get updates from her dad, who would remain in the area for years to come, and but she had to be able to live her to live her life and not let the case kind of like take her down with it, which it could have, she said to me very easily could have. And she felt like she, you know, kind of could honor Rob in a sense that way, you know, to try to live this life to her fullest, you know, because her friend couldn't you know, they were both there that night and one missing in one stayed.
You say it was important, your mother said that it was important. A counselor named Tanner at the school gave her some great advice. You write about that advice that she took the heart.
Yes, she will never forget.
I mean he's probably past now, but mister Tanner was a school counselor at Main North High School no longer high school. A random aside and it was where the Breakfast Club was filmed. He pulled her out of class and was like, you know, you can be a victim to all of this and kind of gacy keeps his power that way, right if you are or you can find the good in this horrific dark situation and do something with it. So she has done that, and I mean she'll talk to anybody about mister Tanner, you know
like this, this person. It's so profound how one conversation can kind of alter your life. And that's kind of the beauty of human connection in that way, is that you never know what you are going to get or give somebody right in this moment of helplessness and hopelessness, and she decided then, you know, it's a seventeen year girl.
I can't be a victim to this.
I cannot let it destroy my life because it is destroying my life. And mister Tanner, you know, taught her how to reframe everything. You know that this was one her one life too, and she needed to live it, she needed to continue living, and she devoted her She has devoted her life to a life of service, being a physician, join the US Army, and you know, being a mother, being a Girl Scout leader. She has always tried to be there for other people.
So, yeah, when you talked about did you message Terry Sullivan, and you had first contacted him in twenty seventeen and he gave he offered you a copy of his book, Killer Clown, and you asked him the question because they chose to open the book with your mom's name, Kim Byers. And you met at a restaurant and you asked, why open with Kim Byers.
What was his response?
Yeah, I mean that was such a profound experience to see your mom's name in a book before I kind of knew everything. I think that has had an intense impact on me. And you know, Terry is such a he's a he's.
A funny, funny guy.
I enjoy conversations with him, and you know, he kind of made a joke that you know, he had a brilliant co author, but you know, he said, no, your mom was detrimental and she was absolutely crucial to bringing Gacy down. And so in that conversation, you know, he was able to share insight into what he remembered about her when she was seventeen, you know, how she was going to trial, how he helped prep prepare her. But how that you know, he spoke extensively about how that
you know, receipt helped prove Rob was there. And then he also talks about, you know, the peace's perseverance of making sure that people knew that, you know, their son was not a runaway and that no one gave up on trying to find him.
He was quite adamant that to recognize the crucial role that your mother had in this whole case and wanted her to know that he appreciated that that role, didn't me, Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. During our conversation, he talked so much about how he appreciated so many that took the stand and how he never forgot about them, and you know, my mom was one of them, and you know, he could, I think could sense the fear on her because it was scary to do all of this, and it was really interesting for me to listen from his perspective, kind of this person of authority but also the first person
my mom trusts. Like even when I read the diary, she speaks warmly about Terry Sullivan, and you know, if it's someone else that you know, it's lukewarm or uncertain, but it seems like Terry Sullivan is the person that my mom was able to trust, and so that has always felt important to me in this story. And that's why I was so grateful for Terry and I to connect, because I was really interested in what he had to say.
It was spoken about in the Netflix documentary, but you write about what Terry Sullivan had to say about the police considering anyone that was missing a runaway regardless.
Yeah, I mean that was that was the fallback, that was the go to. That is how things operated during this time. And it was just sad but also maybe sometimes true, right, So it was like, how how did you figure out who wasn't a run away? But I mean, even if someone was a runaway, they still deserve to be found, you know.
And so there's a lot.
Of cast offing that happened during this time, which is which is unfortunate. And yeah, he has he always tells me he's done all of the things, all of the shows and the interviews, and he enjoys talking about it. And it was a time to It was not a good time to go missing as young a young man.
For sure, you.
Talk about your mother not following it extensively, but that Gaysey was in the news over the years, over the ensuing fourteen years and then again has to face the facts that Gaysey has executed, and so her reminiscing about what happened and her feelings in and around that time.
Yeah, I think that was a really heavy day for a lot of reasons. I mean, you know, she's she doesn't really expressed her opinion on the death penalty. I don't really either, But the fact that he was gone, it was a different kind of exhale.
Right that.
You know, he can never like physically harm her or get her or you know, or anybody again. You know, we didn't have to hear his voice again. But the irony of all this is that we've continued to hear his voice all the time.
We get tapes, we get all the things.
Right, he has become this like mythic figure in American culture. And so even if you can like exhale that he's gone, well he hasn't really been gone.
But Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now, let's get to this investigation that you undertake. Because you take photos, you go back to the places that are
all important to this story. You visit these places with your mother, You meet some of the people that again have something to say about Rob and that day and the police investigation and displains, and then have some relationship to your mother, Kim, and to Rob tell us about some of these experiences on this incredible journey that you undertake.
What I learned on this journey is that you know, six degrees of separation is more like one or two. That if you take the time to talk to somebody in that.
Town, they may.
Likely have a connection, or have a memory, or know someone who has a connection to this case. And it is worth listening to them and giving them space to talk and to honor whoever it is they want to talk about, who they mourn, who they miss, whose life
was taken too soon. And I found that to be absolutely profound, and just in the time I was there, and I've even seen this, I know this conversation is not about online, but on TikTok, so many people write to me that they knew somebody who knew somebody, or they were friends with the sister of a victim. And it is profound the ripple facts this case has had on the people in this community and the country in many ways. You know, I'm writing about this and I
live in California. You don't have to be in the epicenter to feel this or to care about this. And I've also learned that in my research as well.
You talk about speaking with David Nelson that has a personal connection to this story, and also a book as well that you had read. Tell us about your experience and your conversations with David Nelson.
So yeah, I would consider David Nelson one of my good friends now, like a good write friend, but also just a friend that we talk a lot, you know, almost daily, just about writing or life. And I he had originally reached out to me when he was researching his book, Boys Under the House, and it's a book about the victims and the victims' families, and it's a wonderful, incredibly important book.
And I had missed his email.
It had slipped through my crack that like my email and box cracks, and so I didn't I didn't get to like be in like I didn't couldn't help him in his book, unfortunately. But I found when his book came out, I reached out to him, and so I did a piece for Split Lip magazine where I interviewed him about his book, and then we met in person when I did my research trip in twenty twenty two, you know, because there has been some places that he hadn't gone to that he said he would be really
interested in going to. And so we spent time and dusk planes together. You know, these two people that care deeply about, you know, this case and the after effects of it. And I've always been really appreciative of his book because in a sense, I feel like our books are companion books.
You know, he was.
Able to kind of kind of go wide right victims and their families and that repal effects and I was able to go deep into this kind of like one victim in one friendship and kind of that. And so I'm just really proud of the work he has done and the advocacy has done for the victims in this case. And so yeah, he's a he's a good friend.
We go back or you go back and talk about October twenty eighteen in Harper's Bizarre magazine and you did an interview with your mother and that sparked a lot of interest and some very nice response from people online, didn't it.
Yeah, it did.
And I think that that interview was like, oh, there could be a book here. At the time, it was just an interview, because I think there was like a oh it was it was I think that got published in twenty eighteen, so that would have been close to
the forty year anniversary. And so I had just been really kind of mourning and feeling like the loss of like these people and thinking about my mother and how she lived on despite all of this, and I just asked if she wanted to sit down, and at the time, I think Herberst Bizarre told me this would be their kind of first true crime feature, and but yeah, I
got a lot of nice responses. You know, that people cared and people remembered, and it was kind of a new angle to this story that felt like it had only one angle, if that makes sense.
You're right about that your mother had a bad experience with one of the you say in National True Crime Network, and so when Netflix emailed you about the possibility of being interviewed or your mom being interviewed, Kim being interviewed, she said no, And so you told them no, and then you told them maybe look at this from a different angle potentially, So tell us about her cooperation in the Netflix series and also what she felt or you felt afterwards after it all had been done.
Yeah, that's a good question.
I think they know has been kind of the default because you don't know what people are going to do with your words, right, how you'll represented, and so it's easy to say no. But you know, they because they're reaching out. I think because the Harper's Bizarre, people will reach out now. I mean they started reaching out after that. That was the first piece I published on the case.
You know, it's kind of like, oh, well, maybe it's Netflix, and you know, maybe they'll do a good job the I think radical Media.
They do a lot of work.
And research for Joe Berlinger, who I think the creator of it. So don't you know they were like, oh, let's talk, and so you know, just listening to them and you know, basically saying there's you know, I was kind of the point of contact because you know, my mom, you know, she doesn't want she doesn't.
Know these people, so it's like why would she say yes?
And you know, but then there was kind of thinking like, okay, well maybe this could be framed from a different way. And we had no idea that she was going to open the series. When we did, you know, I went to the interview with her. They sent a whole production team out to California and you know, we don't know like what they're going to do with your interview, and the fact that she opened it was really fascinating. It
showed that they listened right to like our concerns. Like I mean, the middle of the series is you know, like the regular angle. We all kind of know, like this is Gaye's life. But it was nice and refreshing to see, you know, big creators like Joe Berland are opened to change and like seeing the case in a new way. I don't know if I would say like it carried through the whole series, but it was pleasant to see, and you know, you know, we were happy with it.
I think it's a I would look at it as somewhat of a compromise because it really was supposed to be and it was the tapes themselves and the horrifying statements that come out of his mouth. I know that people witness it is extraordinary. Just to hear anything that
person has to say, it's incredible. Let's talk about more about this project and your mother warming up to the idea and also the idea that how much and what you actually learned that your mother went through and what you said that just working on this project after you came back from the second trip, that it had changed you as well.
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot to think about.
There was after I got back from this research trip, it was like like I felt like it in my body in many ways, like kind of this like kind of fear, like the ghosts of the story in this town and of Gacy, And you know, I was like a little jumpie, I would say, and I maybe reflect on my own mothering and you know, I'm the mother of boys, and what does that mean for someone that just spent so much time thinking about the worst case
scenario of these young men? And it was very dark, and I had to really think about similar things my mom went through. Well how does this not overtake you? And so that was interesting to kind of sit with and think about and you know, think about what there is to learn from a case like this, right, Like how do how do we practice caution and and continue on with you know, your life to the best of
your ability. Anyway, it's all about holding multiple truths in your hands, right, It's not just one truth like and so it's been it's been an interesting journey. It's been difficult, but it's just it's just a story that my mom lived through, and you know, my sisters and I have experienced through her, and so that has been interesting to dissect untangle.
Your mother retained some of her strength. I think it seemed from this book in that she rationalized that there was some good that did happen from this keeping of the receipt, not throwing in that not keeping it in that garbage candidate she had thrown it in and having that incredible intuition somehow, not knowing what it would lead to, but that her role, somehow, along with Rob, stop this killer in his tracks.
Yeah, I think that is the main takeaway is that there he never killed again, and that is something that she has and I think a lot of people have taken away that have come to care about the case and the victims, is that.
Gacy never went on to kill again.
And you know, my mom was a piece of that puzzle and helping stop him, you know, as her daughter, I'm so proud of her because you know, I can't imagine if he had continued on, right, And.
Your mother sees this book as also honoring the memory of her friend Rob at that time, obviously.
Absolutely absolutely, And you know when people passed in more decades passed, you know, it's easier and easier to forget. So part of this journey, and you know, I've done countless original interviews with her is you know, trying to figure out who he was as a person, as a friend, as a son, as an athlete, a photographer. And he has come to me so like alive, to me in many ways as this person that never deserved any of this.
And we're speaking today on December eleventh, twenty twenty four, forty six years to the day of his disappearance.
Wow.
You know, like I felt, I was mourning him this morning, you know, feeling this incredible heavy sadness. And I have never met this person that I've felt very much like I have through my mom. And I hope that people can feel like through my mom they can meet him too and care about him more than they care about someone like Gacy.
You're right, and Terry Sullivan said the same that as time goes on, you can't but think about the mothers of all these young men and boys.
Yeah, I mean fathers too, but you know, the mothers. You know, Even Terry Silliville mentioned that the mother's taking the stand, and.
How yeah, how heavy it was to watch.
Them, and you know, hearing him talk about Elizabeth Peace taking the stand and you know, reading reading the transcript on that, that was a lot for me as a researcher and thinking about how the mothers had to live on. Even David Nelson and I have talked about the mothers and just thinking how unfair all of this was for them. And there's something so deeply special, you know, a mother child bond, and how the worst thing could happen to them to so many is it's it's unimaginable. It's it's
really really sad. Think trying to honor them and in the parents of these children is important as well.
As you write that this book is dedicated to the thirty three victims and obviously everyone that loved them and their families.
Yes, I say to all the boys, because although this focus is on one, I know so many people have connections to this case. And you know, there's so many people I have yet to meet that have connections to this case, and they were all on my heart and mind.
As I wrote this.
Every step of this you know, after my research, when I hit the writing phase, lead with my heart and try to put my heart in the shoes of so many as I crafted this book, because you know, my intentions are to dedicate it to them, to stop focusing on John Wayne Gacy is this interesting person that painted you know, it's for me, It's never been that, and I hope that people can continue that on and find themselves in this story.
One thing that is a little detour in this book, just to show your sense of anxiety in general, but never mind this event in twenty twenty three and you got a call from your son's school. Can you describe the feeling from that call?
Yeah, yeah, that was I mean, it was important for me to put a scene or two about how the case affected me, because it's one thing to say, oh, this case affected me, and it's another thing to show the reader. And so it was really important for me for the end of the book to show the reader a scene where this case took over me. Right, So I get a call They're like, your son is not at school, but he was dropped off at school. So my husband and I were like, what do you mean he's not at school?
And so the.
Feeling of dropping everything, jumping in the car race seemed to school, you know, thinking, oh my god, I remember exactly what he wore this day. Oh my goodness, I know, I know how he entered school, and all these kind of visual components of a day began to take over, and the real fear that, oh my god, did something
terrible happen. Yeah, so that is in the book. And then of course the scene ends with you know, there was a clerical error and he was at school, but that feeling was one millions of what those parents felt, and that's terrible.
There's so much in this book about the compassion and the strength that your mother has. Especially I found with the Peace family, keeping in contact with them, worrying about how they felt. Elizabeth Peat and her family and the two siblings. This incredible bond that she felt with this person, that these people that she couldn't really even feel with her own family as in comparison, and it was essential for her to maintain this relationship with the Peace family.
Yes, I think I didn't realize the profound impact that, you know, the amount of visitation she did, the amount of communication she did, Like that's not any other you know, book on this case I've ever read. But then I read her tiring, and I was like, oh my god,
that was a deep bond between them. You know, She's going there on Christmas, and you know whenever she can to sit with the siblings or Harold or Elizabeth Peace, and I mean just says so much of who she is as a person, but also how kind of bonded they were from this event. Yeah, it was a profound experience, you know, reading about it in her diary and then her telling me about about it, and you know, I just I'm just in awe of the person my mom was and who she continues to be.
Absolutely, I want to thank you so much for coming on and talking about this extraordinary book, post Mortem What
Survives the John Wayne Gacy Murders. You say that the release date is due December twenty fourth, and as you mentioned we were talking almost in real time but forty years ago, that this story really is an unfortunate Christmas story, but thanks to the intuition and the heroics of your mother, this story at least ended with the stopping of one of the most infamous serial killers in world history.
I want to thank you very much for this interview.
For those people that might want to refer to this case, can you refer them to a website or to any social media that you do.
Yes, you can find me at Courtney lond O'Neill dot com and on TikTok or in Instagram at Courtney lund O'Neill. And there's a playlist on my TikTok called post Mortem where you can kind of see some behind the scenes and you can see some photos in connection.
To this book.
Well, that sounds great. Thank you so much, thank you, so.
Thank you so much for this interview post Mortem What Survives the John Wayne Gacy Murders with my guests. Thank you so much, Courtney lund O'Neill, Thank you for this interview.
Good night, Thanks for having me.
Thank you