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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VCK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good Evening. This is Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Laurie's show was as compassionate as she was hardworking. The outgoing high school junior work part time to pay for the home she and her divorce mother shared, yet she always had time to tutor friends struggling in school, and she befriended a dejected classmate after his traumatic breakup with his pregnant longtime girlfriend,
Michelle Lambert. But soon things spiraled into jealous obsession, stalking, and a brutal attack that left Laurie murdered in her own bedroom, and once Michelle started telling one lie too many, the ensuing investigation shattered a peaceful community. Noted crime writer Lynn Riddle also brings you the latest updates on Michelle Lambert, her accomplishments, accomplices, and those involved this in this Unforgettable case.
The book thisce Evening that we're featuring is Overkill with my special guest, journalist and author Lynn Riddle, welcome to the program, and thank you to agreeing to this interview. Lynn Riddle, Thank you Dan for having me. Thank you very much. This is one twisting and turning story, Sodey. You think you've got what's happening here, there's another twist in turn and lie, in deception and retrial. So it's
very interesting. Now let's start off right off the bat, really, because we need to describe the community this Lancaster County. We need to talk about that this is first off, tell us what kind of religious community it is and as a result of that type of religion in reality, what kind of community are we talking about here where this tragedy occurred. So set the stage, give us kind of an idea of what this community is really like. And before we start getting into the story in any detail.
Well, this is small town Pennsylvania, the Amish country. The people that were involved in this particular crime were not among the Amish community, but certainly influenced by this. It
was a very peaceful community when this crime occurred. There had not been a murder in the community for more than a decade, so this was not you know, this was this is just that kind of you call it kind of beautiful rolling hills part of Pennsylvania where you know, you think that you're safe at night and and you know something is not going to happen to your teenage daughter in her bedroom.
Right now, Laurie show. Tell us about, first off, where she lived and what age were we talking about this woman being We alluded to in the show synopsis. But tell us about what Laurie's show was at this age. What she was doing is she was a junior in high school. Tell her age, what she looked like, what was there life like? Tell us about her parents, tell us about her life a little bit.
Well, Laurie's show was a lot like most teenagers. I mean this this crime occurred twenty years ago, and so you know that makes it even more shocking the you know, the time period that it took place. But Laurie was a girl who liked to have fun. She was you know, very close to her parents. Not to say that she was a perfect child by any means. I mean, she
had gone through a wild period. And in fact, the time that she ended up with these people that caused her harm, you know that was not a pleasant moment for her family. Her parents had divorced and but yet she remained very close to her father, wonderful caring man who was very involved as that she is the only
child in this family. She and her mother were living in an apartment that, as it turned out, was right across the street from one of the people who ended up being a detective on this case, one of the investigators, and they were friendly and the herr. Laurie worked a you know, work jobs so that she could basically help
her mother afford this really nice apartment. Her mother was working as a nurse's aide at the time, her father worked for a delivery company, and you know, just hard working, regular folks.
And what kind of relationship did did the three of them? Have? You said that she stay close with her with her father and with her mother, but in real terms, how close was that relationship, How intimate were they how close a family? And how well adjusted was Laurie at that time?
What kind of person was she? Well?
I think that Laurie was a very giving person. She was someone who you know, never was too busy to help somebody that needed help. She was a you know, pretty good student. She had the idea that she would one day go to Penn State. That was always her favorite school. She wore Penn States shirts all the time, and and she and her father had invect just the night before she was murdered, had been out to dinner together.
She kept in really close close touch with her father, had the kind of relationship with her mother where I think, for a time, as is common with teenagers, I mean I think that they you know, had their moments of you know, her mother had moments of frustration with her, certainly, and she with her mother, but at this particular moment in time, they were very close. And Laurie confided a lot in her mother. And her mother is a very very kind woman, who very caring, and like I said,
she was a nurse's age. She worked, She's always worked in jobs where you you know, where you had to be around people and where they she could interact with people, very personable, and Laurie was very much the same way. Laurie's very personable person A cute girl, you know, a tall, kind of statuesque girl, curly blonde hair, just a just a all round athletic, you know, young woman looking forward to her life, hoping to go to Penn State one day.
Right now, let's before we get into anything else. Let's talk about a couple of the other characters. Uh, let's first talk about this Butch youngkin and and tell us a little bit about him. Tell Um tell Us tell our aunts a little bit about him and his family life and what what was he like in his aspirations.
I'm not really certain that Butch had too many aspirations. You know, he wasn't a particularly good student. He had a very caring mother. I spent a good bit of a good a good bit of time with her, in fact, when I was working on this book, and she was very involved in his life. And his father left when he was a baby, and his mother remarried, and that man, his stepfather, adopted him and took him considered him his
own child. I mean, there was no difference. They ended up having another child, and there was there was no difference between the way that he treated Butch in the way that he treated the the new baby. Just a you know, the working class family that you know tried
to do the best they could. Butch was a you know, I think it's interesting because it's hard to it's it's one of those situations where it depends on who you believe, you know, whether Butch was this horrible, abusive, mean guy or he was you know that he had basically been hand picked and controlled by his girlfriend. That's that's how he would present himself and has his mother would tell
the story. But there are many people who would say, no, I saw him hit Michelle, you know, Lisa Michelle Lambert, I saw him be angry. You know, certainly Hazel's show and John's show believe him to be a very mean spirited, difficult, angry young man.
Yeah, but the allegations, even beyond you know, accomplice, the sexual the sexual charges are very very.
Very severe too.
So absolutely, but you know, he says he didn't do it, you know, and and he was never charged with with raping either person, you know either. You know, Laurie had made the allegations that he raped her, and so did Lisa Michelle, but that has never been proved. You know, it certainly has been testified to in court. But you know, he he knows he's you know, and Lisa Michelle certainly know the truth. But beyond that, I'm not certain that the rest of us do.
The thing was interesting, and I'm not trying to.
Make I'm not trying to make him seem like, you know, he was the next door neighbor and I wish I lived next door to him or anything like that. I'm not trying to do that either, but but you know, his family would would make him out to be a you know, okay guy. But you know, it is the courts have certainly considered that he, you know, wasn't accomplished to this murder. That he and Lisa Michelle would tell you that he actually was there and took part in
the murder. So there's all sorts of pieces of this story that you know, everybody's telling a different tale and having to unravel that is a difficult proposition.
What I just found interesting was, and it was just baffle, is that Butch that we don't really get a good idea, like you say, of who exactly is because there's so many there's so many different versions of what happened. But he allegedly had raped Laurie and then much later Michelle alleges that he had raped and it raped her.
Now, I just think on their first dates, both two on their first dates, first date with Michelle.
Why it just seemed that Michelle, because she seems to be when we're jumping ahead here, But at least there's many, very many versions of stories that happened at different at both trials. But we're also talking about that the allegation at least comes up much later, no matter the date that she said had happened, but it comes up much later. So that seems to be convenient. But in your research yourself in this book, don't you do not find any evidence that Butch is inclined to be a rapist?
Do?
Well? He's never been charged with that crime, and so you know, legally you can't say, oh, yeah, I think he did this. But you know, the Show family certainly
believes their daughter in her allegations. You know, they they did not choose to file charges against him before Laurie was murdered, and you know that's you know, that kind of enters into the story because it would give you know, by saying that the possibility existed that he was going to be charged with rape, that that would give him reason to want to kill her and I and so I think that you know, that was something that that Lisa Michelle and her lawyers, you know, latched onto. I
have reason to not believe the Show family. You know, they're wonderful people who I again, I spent a great deal of time with them, and you know, so I don't have any reason to not believe them, But all I can say is he's not been charged with that crime.
At that time.
Why did they decide not to pursue it.
I think that that there was an a certain amount of embarrassment. You know, they wanted to protect their daughter.
She was already being harassed by Butch and Lisa Michelle Lambert, and so I think that they were really afraid to pursue that, and Laurie really didn't want to do it, and so I think her family, you know, her parents just sort of deferred to her wishes, and you know, you know, again, I mean this was some time ago, and and you know, the idea of bringing a sixteen year old into court and having to undergo all that kind of scrutiny, I think the family just wanted to
put it aside. You know, let's just you know, we're going to get our daughter the help that she needs, and we're gonna, we know, we're going to be with her and support her. But let's just leave that in the past and move on, and hopefully these people will leave us alone.
But that information did come to their attention via their daughter.
Am I correct?
And that's that's why that there is That's why I wanted to raise that point about Butch having that information because that was part of later what he says there was a reason, and that's part.
Of the motive or rationale for this.
Right.
Okay, Let well, were we jumped ahead just like we had mentioned that we would. But let's go back a little bit because obviously that there's a couple other characters involved here. But let's get to Michelle Lambert.
Who is she? How old is she?
Tell us everything about her and her background before we get too far into the story.
Michelle is in her late teens, just a slight bit older than Laurie at the time, and she came from a very religious family, you know, very structured. You know. She in fact says that at one point that because because Butch raped her and that he was the first person that she had had sex with, that that meant he had to be the one that she would marry.
That that was her upbringing. And at the she had some you know, good relationships with her family and then had you know, had been estranged at the time that this happened. Her parents were not speaking to her. They they had you know, they they were of all these families. I mean, they were more a little bit more well to do than the others, and had a really lovely house and had I think two sons, as I recall,
and then had had several miscarriages. That that Lisa Michelle And I keep calling her Lisa Michelle because sometimes she was Michelle and sometimes she was Lisa, which you know, was all part of her psychosis, I think. But but she was you know, I mean, had a you know, pretty regular upbringing. But she did focus very much on the loss of these children. She considered the you know
that they were members of the family. I mean, if anybody asked her, she would say, oh my, you know what, we have five in our family, you know, including the two miscarriages. So you know, I mean she had some some issues. She had some things going on in her head.
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As a young young woman, and we're Michelle Lambert's parents. They were, you say, at this time, around this time, they were not supportive. They knew her, their daughter was pregnant. What were they most disappointed with? I mean, obviously they're very religious, so they're just appointed with that. Tell us that to the extent that they were disappointed and why.
Well, they were disappointed in her relationship with Butch Youngkin, knowing that you know, that she had had sex with him, and that that and that, and that that he had been that he had been abusive toward her, that they say that they saw him hit her. And at that point,
you know, it was that was it. They didn't, you know, they if she was not going to leave him, she was going to remain in a relationship like that, then they didn't you know, they didn't approve it, and they didn't want to have anything to do with her at the time right before this, you know, at the time when when she became estrange with her parents, she wasn't
pregnant and they didn't know that. And it was only just a short, very short period of time before Laurie Show was murdered that mis I found out that she was pregnant. So I think, you know, and I mean, I'm jumping ahead again, but I mean, you know, once the family learned that there was a child and that there was this situation and that their daughter was in this you know, grave situation, they did rally around and they you know, they went to a trial and and and they raised her child.
Right now, what what what we haven't really described what youngkin? What's his size? Is he imposing figure? Does he look like a mean nasty guy?
What? What does he really look like?
Well, he's a I think you know, if you looked at him, then you would think that he certainly was an imposing guy. And he was big, he was muscular, he was he he had he was attractive, you know, and and kind of I mean he had long string of hair, but I mean he had very chisel, you know, good looks, blonde. You know, he was somebody who if he walked into a room, you know, many women would turn around and look at him.
Okay.
And you know, similarly, Michelle, you know, was a very pretty pretty girl. I mean blonde, long blonde hair, and you know, not particularly petite, but not I mean, she wasn't overweight by any means. I mean, she was just kind of an average height. And you know, they made quite a nice, you know, nice looking couple, the two of them.
And then we talked about the longtime girlfriend. So how long had they been going out with each other at this point we're talking the summer of we'll say, summer of nineteen ninety one.
I am really not recalling, to be perfectly honest. I mean it had been sometime. It had been more than a year or so, I think, and and you know which in a teenage relationship, that's a long time.
Oh yeah, certainly.
But I mean Michelle considered him to be her the love of her life. I mean she thought he was it. And you know when they when they broke up, she was devastated. I mean there's no doubt about that that you know that he he want, you know, he was somebody that she wanted to have a relationship with for the rest of her life.
Why did they break up in that spring summer.
Nineteen ninety one? What was what was the reason?
Well, they I think that they you know, they were not getting along. They were he Butch thought that she that she was cheating on him, and that he had got you know, he had met Laurie by that point, and I think he was interested in her. So I think that there were a lot of reasons. You know that that just you know, in that kind of emotional upheaval of you know, and I hate to say young love, because this was this was not your the kind of
relationship that you would hope for your children. You know, this was a constant bickering, fighting, abusive, you know, people controlling, trying to control each other, Lisa, Michelle and Butch. You know, some of Butch's friends would say, well, you know Michelle is too controlling, she's she's trying, you know, Butch's hindpack now. And then you know, her friends would say, well, look at what he's done to her. And she infected. I mean,
she changed her entire appearance for him. She dyed her hair, she got contact lenses to change her eye color. She wore lots and lots of makeup, which he liked, and skimpy clothes because he liked that. So, I mean, there was a you know, if you based on what people look like and how they're reacting to a relationship, you would have to say that Butch had more control over her than she did him, just because of the fact
that she completely reinvented herself. And at that point, you know, she was Lisa Lambert to her family before that, and when he met her, he said, I don't like the name Lisa. What's your middle name? And she said Michelle And he said, well, you're Michelle now, and she was.
Yeah, it's controlling, for sure. And at this point, she's pregnant and this is the love of her life and he's a controlling figure. And he's a chiseled, handsome man and a real catch. So she's very emotional at this point obviously. And then what does Laurie know, Actually you said they had already met at that point, But does she know she's breaking up this relationship or does he tell her that the relationship is about what's the premise of them actually getting together in that summer?
I think that he he tells her that, you know, this is not working out, that he is going to leave her. They don't know she's pregnant yet, and then they you know, he kind of praise on that sympathetic character that Laurie is, you know that let me tell
you my problems, Okay, I'll listen. And and so, I you know, I think that was just one of those, you know, horribly difficult situations in somebody's life, you know, where you think, well, I want to befriend him, and poor guy, he's look at he's you know, he's lost this. He thinks this girl of longtime girlfriend is cheating on him and he's distressed and I want to help him. And then you know what her story is that you know, they go out on a date, he rapes her on
the very first date. And why these women stay with these men is that's a you know, that's a question. You know that there would many people would love to have the answer to that, but and particularly with Laurie, that's something that's always puzzled me because I didn't have the idea that she was such a pushover. You I never had the idea that she was somebody who would just kind of hang on because she couldn't get anybody else. She had other boyfriends, you know, Michelle was that's a
different story. You know, I think that you know, the psychological aspects of that are a little bit easier to understand. Why she would go back with him, why she would stay with him even though he hit her and you know, made her be something that she really wasn't. But you know, it only lasted with Lorie. And this is the most tragic part of the of you know, beyond the fact
that this vibrant, interesting young woman is dead. This was a ten day relationship that she had with but chunkin ten days and when her parents learned that she that Lisa Michelle Lambert was pregnant. Her parents put it, you know, the shows, put an end to this and said, you go work this out with your ex girlfriend and leave Laurie alone.
And what did he say?
That's okay, yeah, okay, I will he did, and she took him back, and she took him back, and she convinced them as she wanted him back, and you know, she convinced him that these stories about her being involved with other men or another man, that they were untrue. He believed her. And then, you know, rather than just moving on with your life and having a baby and you know, getting a job and working and having this life,
then they proceeded. Butch and Laurie proceeded, I mean not Butch and Lisa Michelle proceeded to make Laurie's life miserable and harassed her and stalked her and you know, just made her terrified about what was going to happen. Next.
Now introduced the other character to this tragedy, and her name is Tabitha. Tell us about Tabitha and where she had just recently come from and how she got entwined with these people, and again on what premise did she get involved with these people?
Well, Tabitha Buck was a young woman who had moved moved to Pennsylvania with her mother from the West coast there. Her family was originally from Oregon, and she had a very tough upbringing, I mean times where her family lived in tents. Her father was a war veteran and was you know, I I'm certain today they would call it, you know, PTSD that he had, and he you know,
moved from job to job. They moved around a lot, and so she never really had a sense of home, you know, a sense of roots, one living in one place. And she and her mother, her mother had remarried and moved back to Pennsylvania where her where she had relatives, and so she'd only been there just a very short period of time, and you know, meets these these people and gets to be friends with them and and kind of takes up, uh, Lisa's Lisa, Michelle's honor almost, you know, like, well,
she's my she's my friend. I'm going to I'm going to say mean things to you too, you know, in a in a childish way. So she's you know, so she's part of the taunting, part of the stalking of of Laurie show, and you know, just to kind of support her her friend. You know, why Lisa Michelle was so focused on Laurie and just this very brief time that her boyfriend was with another woman is you know,
is a puzzle. She just couldn't let it go. And I think that, you know, from what I have been told, I think that Butch kind of fed that a little bit in that sort of mean way that people can be. You know, well, if you're not going to do what I say to do, well maybe I'll just go back
to Laurie. You know, Laurie wouldn't act like that, and so I mean he did, you know, Giger a little bit, you know, to to kind of heighten this, and I think that that was that was appealing to him, you know, to know that somebody cared about him that much that she would get all riled up and worried and jealous about this this other woman who he had no intention of being with or that or that she had no intention of being with him, and her parents certainly wouldn't
have let that happen. You know, they got to the place that that there was so much you know, phone calls, threatening phone calls, Butch and Lisa, Michelle going to Laurie's workplace. There was so much interaction that they never let her be alone. If she was out in public, she had
to be with someone. She had to be either with her you know, and she did have a boyfriend at this point, and you know, or she had to be with her father or her mother or someone, you know, an uncle someone, because they were frightened about what would happen.
Well, I think you're given too much credit to Butch here, because Butch is the big instigator here completely, because I could see Michelle, especially in an emotional state, and given everything to describe about her background, that she would she might react like this. Tabitha again, is you know, understandable to a certain extent. You know, you know, I was seventeen once. So the thing is though that Butch must
have be able to get back in this relationship. He must have said some things that were outright lies about Laurie. Maybe he felt insulted about the parents telling him, you know, go, and then maybe there was something to her claiming that she had been raped by him, so that he he fed more into this. But he was he's the most responsible as far as I'm concerned, because he could have he must have fed her a certain amount of lives
and went along with everything, including this. Like I say, this is far more than harassment when you've got death threats on the phone and everything that they did. How long were we talking about this taunting and humiliation and how far did it escalate before this the twenty first?
At what point was it.
Gaining about the go ahead?
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, And I also wanted to say you said that Laurie always you know, Laurie was very close with her mother and confided. Was Laurie's parents knew about all of this all along?
Yes, and you know they were they knew when ever, you know, Lisa or but showed up at her work. I mean they were the first person that she called, one of her parents. It went on for about six months, and they would, you know, like I said, they would call, they would show up at her work. And you know, there have been there was a time when Tabitha hit Lorie.
They got into kind of a you know, a little scuffle in the middle of a mall, you know, so it it had escalated to the point that that the family was so concerned that you know that they made sure that she was never alone. And you know, unfortunately, the I think Michelle knew that. They knew that if she was going, you know, if she was ever going to do something, and Butch as well knew it. If they were ever going to do something to her, it
wasn't going to be in a public place. And they had to do something to set this up.
Yes, this is the incredibly evil part of this. This is what really garnered a lot of I think a lot of attention is this despicable act. But this very very ingenious plan that they had here about calling the mother at home, tell us about this route.
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They used.
The night before call a guidance counselor from the high school, cauling Hazel show come in and tell us about that.
Incredible they Hazel was actually at work and a call came into the nurse's lounge which wasn't that wasn't a public number, so you know, when she was she was told there was this phone call for her, she thought, oh, you know, well something important, something bad has happened. She gets on the phone and the woman that identifies herself as missus Cooper, the guidance counselor at her daughter's at her daughter's school, and she really needs to see her
the next morning. Can she come early before school starts? And you know, Hazel of course says yes, but what what's happening? What's going on? And the woman says, well, I can't, you know, I don't want to talk about it on the phone. It has something to do with a boy and something that's happened, and I just need to I need to see you. And so she said, of course, I'll be there seven fifteen, seven thirty seven
fifteen in the morning, I think it was. And Hazel goes home to and talks to Laurie and what's going on. Laurie doesn't know. She's you know, she thinks everything's fine. She hasn't been in trouble in school. Nobody said anything to her. She doesn't know, but you know, Hazel nevertheless feels like, Okay, well I need to I need to go and and see. And so she goes to the
school and she waits. Laurie is at home by herself, getting ready for school and doing her hair, you know, they're flat iron and you know, getting ready, and Hazel's at the school. She's waiting the teacher. Never guidance counselor doesn't show up, and she Hazel is a very patient person, very you know, kind of demure person that she would you know, she would say, well, you know, I'd wait thirty minutes for somebody. But there's something about this. It
just doesn't feel right to her. You know. The secretary comes in and sits at her desk, and so Hazel just says, I gotta go, And so she leaves a note for the Gutts counselor and just says she couldn't wait any longer. And the whole way home and she's several miles away from home, and the whole way home, she's thinking, this is just not right, and she has this feeling that you know, i'm as she's scared that
something has happened. And so it's one of those rare moments where she and she remembers this so well that she made every single light going there and got home, walked in, you know, thought Laurie had already left for school, looked around, you know, noticed that there was a light on or that's something that you know wouldn't have happened. And then she saw that that Laurie had left her curling iron on, which would be, you know, just a
scary thing. Laurie's boyfriend was the firemen, and so you know, that would be something that they would never have let happened, and because he was supposed to pick her up and take her to school, and you know, as far as Hazel knew, and then she looked into Laurie's bedroom and there was her daughter lying on the floor in a pool of blood.
And what did she immediately do.
She saw that there was a rope that was tied around Laurie's neck, and so she thought that that because she could, you know, she could hear that Laurie was gasping for breath, and so she thought that that was what was wrong with her. And she ran in the kitchen and got a peary knife and cut the cut the rope off. And when she did that, Laurie's head fell backwards, and she saw that her throat had been slit, and in fact, it was so vicious an attack that her throat was slit all the way back to her
spinal call wow. And Hazel you know, ran out to the you know, and said call nine one one, and you know, of course, and then went back into the room and and and held her daughter, you know, held her up like you know, with her back. Laurie's back would be against Hazel's chest because she wanted to keep her head down, you know. That was the only thing she could think about, was keep that wound together, you know. And she said and she you know, just spoke to
her and said, you know, you're gonna be okay. You know, Dad and I are going to be okay. She wanted her, you know, you know, she I don't think consciously she realized that her daughter was actually dying, but she was trying to be positive and and and this is you know, like so many pieces of this story, there are so many points of contention, and this would be one that she that Laurie said to her, Michelle did it, and she held her, you know, Hazel held her daughter there
until the paramedics arrived. And at first the paramedics you know, looked. I mean, this was just a gruesome scene. I mean there was blood everywhere. There was you know, stuff was knocked over, it was in you know, Laurie was lying on the floor in her bedroom and and at first they didn't, you know, they didn't know what had happened. They thought, did this woman do this to this girl? And and she said, I didn't do it. I didn't
do it. And then they you know, moved in to try to to try to help her, and then you know, made Hazel leave and in fact made her leave the apartment and she went downstairs, and but there was no saving her.
She died shortly after.
She died, almost almost immediately, she bled to death there, you know, I mean, that's how much blood there was.
Now, with the background that had happened, with the harassment and the they were trying to get a restraining order against Butcher and Michelle. So the police basically had some suspects, and obviously they would have spoken to the mother.
So tell us how long.
It was before the police rounded up the the the obviously the obvious suspects.
Well, the actually and we kind of jumped over this. I'd forgotten this detail they had the show family had filed an assault charge against Lisa Michelle Lambert before this happened. So yes, the police, you know, the police knew they there had been many times where the family had called and said, you know, these people are harassing her, or police had gone to the you know, had gone and
talked to them before about this. So so I don't think that it was It wasn't necessarily shocking that, you know, that the that they would be, that these people would be suspects. No one in the condominium development saw really anything, you know, Initially they thought the police thought that it was Butch and Lisa Michelle, but they did find a witness who said, no, they saw two women coming out,
and so that was a puzzle to the police. But anyway, so they put the word out that they were looking for a certain car and went and talked with but Younkin's parents and the mother kind of blurted out, no, that wasn't the right car, so you know, she kind of gave them some information that they needed to to find them. Ultimately, they found them the next day in a bowling alley. They had, you know, basically gone about
their lives after this had happened. They tab at the buck, went to school the next day, Lawrence and you know, Butch and Lisa Michelle took her to school. They went into the laundromat and washed their bloody clothes and then threw them out and then they went bowling, which is you know, really just an amazing detail, I think, And you know, just you can just you know, kill someone, and they and you know, they I think certainly knew
that they had killed her. I think it was the next morning when they saw it on the news that they knew for sure. But based on what they did to her and what the scene look like and how she was, you know, gasping for breath when they left the room and just left her there, they certainly knew that they'd killed her. But they just went about their life and then started telling their stories.
Right now, how did the police respond in terms of questioning, did the did the lawyer up, what was the questioning of the of the two suspects, How long before Tabitha is rounded up? And what is the result of questioning.
Well, Tabitha was a juvenile at the time, so they couldn't really hold her and they couldn't question her without her parents being there, and so so they let her go on that first day that they brought them, you know, that they when they were arrested. But she did she did tell I mean, they had a story that they had been some where and gotten into an altercation with some other kids. And that's that would account for the
scratch that Tabitha had on her face. And and it seems like that Michelle had some wounds of some sort, superficial wounds, and so you know, this this was the story that they all agreed on, and it was the story that they all told initially, and they they kept questioning Lisa, Michelle and Butch through the night and never they had they never asked for a lawyer. They worked,
you know, get given their miranda rights. For the other charges that were outstanding, there was Butch had some minor I don't remember exactly what it was, but some minor charge that you know, like failure to appear for something
or maybe a traffic ticket or something. But you know, Lisa Michelle had the charge pending the assault charge from Laurie, and so they charged them with that so that they could keep them and kept talking to them, talking to them, and finally Lisa Michelle said, well, you know, I didn't do it, but that the other two did it. She was the one that broke first. And then they used that information to get Butch to start talking as well.
So in short order they had finally cracked Michelle and she had said that the Butch and Tabitha had participated. So what was that official? What was her first official story on what exactly had happened and why.
She said that that Butch and Tabitha did it and she wasn't that she didn't do it at all, and you know that that her that her she just wanted to embarrass Laurie. She wanted to maybe cut her hair off or something, and so, but that she wasn't even in the room when she wasn't even in the apartment when it happened, and so you know, Butch immediately countered, you know, well, that's not true. I was the one who wasn't there. In fact, it was the two of you know, the two women who went in.
What what did Michelle gives the reason why she wouldn't be in the She just wanted to humiliate the Lorie, but she wasn't there. But why would Tabitha want to kill her? Was there any explanation for that?
I don't recall that there was an explanation for that, you know, other than the fact that, you know, Tabitha was just some kind of mean girl that was out there too.
You know.
It seems like that she and Laurie had had some kind of altercate. Tabitha and Laurie had had some kind of altercation, and perhaps it was payback for that, you know, or that she perhaps she just wanted to be, you know, one of the friends, one of the you know, I'm
with you guys, you're my best friends. Let's go. But you know, Tabitha is a that is one of those kind of stories that is really very sad because in the you know, in the way that things played out, and based on advice from her law you know, Tabitha's lawyer, they said, don't talk, don't talk, don't tell anything. And the police have told me many times that they would have much rather made a deal with Tabitha than to make a deal with Butch, which in fact they did.
They did make the deal with Butch. And so I mean, I probably don't want to jump aad too far, but but you know, she really missed. She got some bad advice because based on my interview with Tabitha, and you know, the time that I spent with her actually in jail interviewing her, she never she did not strike me as this angry, mean person who would viciously go in and
kill somebody. I don't really believe. And she claims that she didn't know what was going to happen, that she thought that they were just going in there to cut her hair, and that the next thing she knew, there was Laurie stabbing this girl and slitting her throat and Taba but Tabitha did, you know, hold her legs down. And Tabitha did not go to the police and did not try to get help for her. So you know, there's no doubt that she was an accomplice in this.
But as far as the mastermind, uh, that was a that was a large uh you know, butcher Younkin and Lisa Michelle Lambert proposition.
I think no, we just jumped a little bit of ahead. But I want to know as a result of the tale that Michelle Lambert told h the idea that Tabitha Buck would not be saying anything on advice from her lawyer,
her attorney, and then Butcher Youngkin is given a deal. Now, what is the deal that they are giving him and what is the alternative in terms of what could he be faced with and what But what do prosecutors and police have is in terms of their motive and how are they going to what do they think or at least the prosecution is going to say in terms of what what happened and why?
Well, I think that first of all, it was pretty clear to everybody that Lisa Michelle Lambert was the main killer. Sure there was, and that butch Chunkin was not in the apartment when this took place, but Tabitha was. And but he could have faced, you know, very serious charges as far as you know, being an accomplice before and after a murder, and he ultimately initially had agreed to a much lighter sentence than what he got, But he didn't tell the whole truth about you know, what had
actually happened. And so because of that, they they increased his punishment. But still he served much you know, I mean, he's out of prison right now, it's been out for a while, and so I mean, he faced much more serious charges. And you know, the police have told me that they would have much rather had Tabitha as the
as their key witness. I mean, you know, in effect, you know, butsch was the prime witness in the case against Lisa Michelle and and he he's the one who you know, gave them the testimony that they needed to get a guilty you know. And and that's another really unusual twist to this is the fact that if it was a that she didn't want a jury, She wanted to be tried solely by the judge, and the judge would decide whether she lived or died. This was a
capital murder case. And so but the police absolutely said that they would have much rather had Tabitha. But her her lawyer said no, Yeah, it.
Seems like people are getting not great legal advice here. It's unusual for people not to go to a jury with this kind of case rather than just a judge alone. So I don't know, that wasn't very good legal strategy, obviously.
Yeah, and certainly not and certainly not to you know, to when you have the opportunity to make a deal, you know, make the deal in a case like this where it's pretty clear that you were in the room, you know that in all you know, I think I'm certain in most states I would you know, I would guess that, you know, like here in South Carolina where I live. The you know, the hand of one is the hand of all. If you're in the room, even if you didn't kill the person, you're still a murderer.
Was and you know, so that's you know, so Tabitha was certainly guilty and certainly took part in this. So you know, she w instead of being in the women's prison in Pennsylvania right now, she would have been out if she had made the deal.
Now, what was the sen you say that boy Lawrence uh he youngkin he got to ten to twenty years, ten to twenty you see. And so what was the sentence for Tabitha Buck and for Michelle Lambert in that first trial?
Life without the possibility of parol, no possibility of parole.
No possibility of parole, Okay, And as per usual everywhere everyone knows there's an appeal process in this case, did you think there was Having reviewed that trial, did you think there was any grounds for any kind of appeal? Do you think the judge at that time did anything incorrectly? Did you think that there was it was a fair trial, and what did you think about the appeal? And in terms of what happened what happened afterwards is after this trial here in terms of the appeal process.
Well, this is the you know, this is absolutely the case that never dies apparently because this went on up until gosh, two thousand, I don't know, two thousand twenty, you know, two thousand and three, something like that, because you know, she ended up with a very aggressive and highly competent lawyer, Lisa Michelle is who I'm talking about,
who basically took apart the case. And while they didn't find anything necessarily that the judge had done, they they found the prosecutor, you know, that the prosecutor had had had some misconduct, that was their opinion, and that the police had basically framed Lisa Michelle because and this was just one of those moments that this little town, you know, this little town that that never has any kind of
you know, horrible murders that take place. First they have this murder, and then this person who was who is convicted of this murder, accuses three members of the police department of raping her in her apartment before this happened, you know, before the murder, and and that that they in turn framed her, that they kept and that the prosecutor had kept evidence that would you know, not you know, that would make her look better, you know, that they had not that they had not given her that that
they basically I mean, there was something like one hundred places where this lawyer found that that that either the prosecutor or the police had misconduct. And so it went to another trial, uh, this time an appeals court, and that judge said found that she was innocent, completely innocent, and let her go.
And did he also he prevented any further retrial, right.
And he is he ruled that this could never be tried again. And it was just shocking, I mean, it was shocking to you know. And and as it turned out, you know that you know that for example, one of the police officers who Lisa Michelle accused of raping her that day was on his honeymoon in you know, Hawaii or something, and she had actual evidence that he was
not even in the state. So I mean there was just point after point after point that you know that were that that this that the prosecutors and the police had to refute, and it turned into just you know, kind of a twisting this whole organization inside out. And ultimately, I mean they were vindicated that you know, the courts did find that they did not you know, that they did not do any of these things. They did not rape her. No charges were ever brought against any of
these police officers. But nevertheless, it was just this wrenching, very difficult time that and particularly for the Show family, you know, because here's this family that thinks, you know, this this is over. We you know, the people that did this. Justice has been served. The people that did
this are behind bars, behind bars for life. You know, they weren't real happy about but Chunkin having, you know, being the fact that he was going to be able to get out of prison sure relatively short period of time. But now they have to go back to court. You know, they are in I can't remember I spoke with Hazel Show.
In fact, not too terribly long ago, and I can't remember what she told me about the number of times that they had to go to court over these years, and you know they have to you know, they the details of their daughter's death again. Hearing this again, hearing these allegations, you know that the you know that that these people that they had put their trust in the police and the prosecutors had you know, denied Lisa Michelle Lambert her constitutional rights, and you know it was a
very very wrenching, wrenching time. But you know, it went back through the appeals process. A judge higher than the one that said that she was in effect innocent found actually that that wasn't her place to make a you know, to make a ruling over whether this person was innocent or not. That wasn't that wasn't the point. The point was, was their prosecutor prosecutorial misconduct And she said no, there was not. Every single point she denied in the appeal.
And then the US Supreme Court refused to hear the case. So you know that this this horrible murder went on for you know, the the wheels of justice were very slow on this, on this particular case.
Yeah, it must have been very hard for her too as well, because here the unsubstantiated claims that this apparently reputable law firm and then the judge, this judge that was you know, basically criticized and ridiculed in the media and probably within the legal community, especially for this major overturning of of the of the decision. So you have this very interesting dynamic of of you know, judges rarely
overturn any other decision. That's why they do things so carefully, and that's the last thing that would probably want is to be considered humiliated or have done something inappropriate. So it's very interesting, well.
And to do and to do it in such a blatant fashion, you know, I need to go so far overboard to say that she is in effect innocent and then to let her go, you know.
Yeah, and Michelle really really does weave some fantasticals. We haven't got into it, but it's incredible the lies that are compounded over the years, and the fanciful tales. I mean, I can't believe anybody could accept some of them with a straight face. But she tried, that's certainly she's tried.
She certainly has, and she is still she's still trying. My understanding is she's writing a book herself. Sure, but you know she she you know, she graduated from college while she was in prison, and she's you know, moved on with her life and she sees her daughter and that's a whole lot more than the show Family that gets to do exactly.
Yeah, yeah, it's it's amazing.
Yeah.
Well, I want to thank you very much h Lynn for this for this interview. I also want to let people know you have a you have a website, and you also have is this year how many two crime books do you have? I know you have four and have four.
I have four and this was my second actually, yeah, and.
Maybe you can just tell the names of those those books for for audience if they're interested.
Absolutely, there's some Ashes to Ashes. Do you want me to tell you what they're about or just a name at Ashes to Ashes is a is a story about a family who literally the entire family is killed by one of the children, and it just, you know, one of those moments where the police could not even believe that anything horrible had happened to this family. You know,
they always look into the background of the family. They could InFine anything about this family that was in any way unusual, but except for the fact that they had a murdering child. And then there's some Family Blood, which is a story is said in South Carolina about a young man who killed his family opposite of Ashes to Ashes, because this was a family that was in serious dysfunction. And then first We'll Kill My Husband is a story about a woman who had her boyfriend kill her husband.
Very very unusual for a woman to be on death row and she in fact is the only person on death row in Georgia.
Wow.
Interesting.
And then Overkill will be coming out in August.
Yeah, great, well, good luck with that. I know, well, I mean if it's being re released and it did well the first time, and it'll probably do really good again because this is a fascinating story that's really hitting home. You're getting a lot more stories in the last couple of years that sort of have this sort of teens run wild and people are really well, obviously it hits home for everybody that has children and they're seeing some
of these this psychopathic behavior. That's really the only thing you can explain that you cannot chuck it up to teen ags. It's much more than evil. And yeah, absolutely so well.
And you know, and it's bizarre. Lisa Michelle Lambert did a television interview for a storier many years ago, and and you know, at the time she said something like one day we're just teenagers. And you know that's really very telling for you know, for her to come from her especially, and then she of course added, it's just a mess.
Yeah, that's it's certainly it is.
It's a it's a it is an interesting story and it's a very very sad story. And you know, in talking with Hazel Show recently, she said, I can't even imagine what the kind of situation we would have been in in this day where we live, you know, in this time where we live now, with social media, Facebook, you know, all these ways that people have to bully other children, you know, other young people, and you know she said this, you know, this was a whole different time.
And and they have had anti bullying, anti stocking laws passed in Pennsylvania at the you know, because of the work of the Show family and and Hazel Field's like, you know, at least something good has come from this really horrible situation.
Yes, that's one thing we did skip over. There there were no anti stalking laws at that time.
No, to be fair, there was really very little that they could do to you know, to keep these you know, butcher and leave the Michelle away from their daughter otherway.
And it's a real cautionary tale too, because I think that a lot of people are I know, people that have children that are bullied to a certain degree or at least harassed. And as you mentioned, facebook's a big issue and a big part of this harassment as well when you start posting things on Facebook. And but anyway, you know.
It is.
So and something that happens all the time, all the time, you know. I mean I've did a story not too tired and long ago about these kids who had written a book for young, very young age children about bullying, and in doing this story, I asked, you know, well
do you see this, And they say, every day. We see bullying in our high school every day and it is a big, big issue, just you know, something that and I think that we don't really understand quite you know, those of us who have been through school and out in the world, we don't really understand what a lot of these young people are going through.
And it's just hard to believe it could get to that point. That's what I was mentioning with the cautionary tale. Nobody knew that it would escalate to this point, even like the mother. She was coming back from the supposed that up counselors meeting. But how could anyone have any idea these people really put in a plan to kill someone. It really wasn't any happenstance. It was a concerted effort to kill Incredible. How can you really guard against something
like that? It's very, very very heartbreaking to read the ride back from the from the high school and with her and pending doom, and then for tragedy to strike and and her daughter to bleed to death in her arms. Incredible stories.
Absolutely absolutely well.
I want to thank you Lynn for a great interview and thank you very much. And again did you mention your website.
Lynnriddle dot com.
There we go, okay, thank you very much.
Lynn, with one N L Y n RI I d d LI dot com and I thank you. This is I appreciate it very much.
Well, thank you very much, and you have a great evening.
Thank you, good night.