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You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good Evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime History and the authors that have written about them. In Ladock Ocsober two thousand and nine, Cleveland police detectives arrived at the home of Anthony Sowell, an ex marine and registered sex offender, to arrest him on weak old rate charges. But this was no ordinary house, nor would it be a routine arrest, for even though Solol was not at home,
officers knew immediately something was horribly wrong. After initially finding two rotting corpses inside the home, their investigation would lead them to discover the bodies of eleven women. This is the shocking account of Solo's legacy of depravity and cold
blooded murder. His mannered and well spoken veneer masked a monster who felt no mercy for those he butchered, his twisted existence spent among the decaying bodies of his victims, and how he picked his victims from the fringes of society, lost souls with criminal records or drug habits that would make them less likely to arouse alarm if they simply disappeared,
but that didn't mean they wouldn't be avenged. Nobody's Women, the book we're profiling this evening is Nobody's Women, The Crimes and Victims of Anthony Soul, the Cleveland serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist and author Steve Miller. Welcome back to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Steve Miller.
Hi, good evening.
Had a little gap there where I couldn't find my place and reading the script. Sorry about Matt, Yes.
All right, that's the silence is good. It's all right.
Anyway, I wanted to say, we're those who listening to the in the audience this evening where you're in for a real thrill ride, because this is an amazing story and an amazing book. And so let's get to this question I often ask I might have asked you this before when you're on the program, what without giving too much of the story away. What brought you to this story? Why were you compelled to write about this story, this
serial killer in this time and place in history. What brought you to this story in this book?
Well, you know when I when when this all went down, I was working on my second book, uh, which was A Girl Wanted the Chase for Sarah Pender and uh, and so my mind wasn't on what was going on in the news, and yet this story kept popping up.
It was you know, these these bodies were being hauled out of a house and one of the worst neighborhoods in Cleveland, and uh, I'd be in a Midwesterner, you know, I pay attention to that kind of stuff, and and uh it looked to me at first, you know, I thought, well, this is just another grim you know, a grim mass murder. And but but I'd find myself reading about it and I think, well, who are these women? You know who who? What were was he praying on it's and it's Uh
it started to attract me in that way. I said, well,
who are these people? Who are who's getting killed? And uh So I started reading more and more about the victims, and then there were you know, the allegations that the police didn't act on these these people had come up missing in these this bad neighborhoo and uh and I and I realized that this this was a kind of a compelling story about you know, it had a little bit of you know, some police work in it, some uh you know, obviously the horrific murders, and and at
the the heart of it was a very depraved human being, Anthony Soul. And you know, so it started to look at me, look to me like a challenge. You know, I hadn't I dealt with really like kind of like mysteries and and so on and so forth before. In this case, there was really no mystery. It was. It was kind of like right in a like about a football game. It happened right in front of you. And uh and so I thought I'd take that challenge and hopefully it succeeded in in Nobody's women.
Right now, let's talk about Cleveland. You alluded to it that that's one of the worst neighborhoods. So take us back to first of all, let's let's do Anthony Soul. Let's go back and take us back into his childhood. You did an admirable job of of uncovered ring all available information about who this guy was and how he grew up to. He was born in nineteen fifty nine August nineteenth as parents Thomas Senior and Claudia Garrison. Thomas
Soul tell us about his life growing up. Tell us what it was really like for Anthony sol and what hype person was he growing up? Right from the very beginning.
His father was a criminal. I mean, he had committed numerous crimes in his life. He had done some time. He was a rough character, and he essentially had had Anthony and didn't really he'd never served as a father to him, and so Anthony was swung into kind of an extended family. He would be lived with cousins and so on and so forth, and his mother and it was a rough, rough upbringing for this guy. For Soul, he had a you know, like a lot of people that we have born into a poverty and h and
so on. He he lived a rough life. There was a lot of sexual abuse, there was violence. It was it was a very rough, a terrible upbringing for him, and he in fact, in the book, we talked quite a bit about how that worked and against him and he was. He was abused, and he did some abusing as well. It almost at some points when I was writing about it, I thought, man, this is just like a growing up in a house of horrors. It's almost unimaginable. And yet, you know, Soul managed to go to school.
He you know, he he grew up. You know, he's kind of an outsider as a kid, but uh there was nothing apparent to his to his teachers or anything when he's you know, as he grew up. He had a high school girlfriend whom I whom I spoke with at length in the book. And uh so, you know, he he grew up in this very dysfunctional environment, and yet he managed to you know, it seemed like he was going to going to get out of it. I
mean he joined the Marine. Uh he duringed the Marines before he graduated high school, and he really wanted to enlist. And uh so that's where we that's where we got to a pre crime and he got out of the Marines. And uh he served very very admirably sharpshooter as a matter of fact, and uh and so you know that's that's where we got to up to. His criminal activity is known criminal activity.
What let's talk a little bit about the military. You say he was a sharpshooter, So he was. He was a very good shot, an expert shot. Now what else was what was he characterized? What was what were the reports like of his behavior? Was there any abarrent behavior when he was in the military, and well did he he he was released with an honorable discharge. But tell us about what those reports said, if anything during his military state.
But he was he was a very good soldier. I mean, the the the bottom line, he was a you know, I guess you know, his his sister, his sister, his half sister, Tressa. At one point I talked about how he he went through a change, but really he he you know, it seemed like the uh, you know, the the I guess, I guess what he he went through was a bit of growing up. You know. He he came, he came in, he went into the Marines, and uh, and he wanted to you know, he just he wanted to.
He got married. Uh. He he had every sign of of being you know, good. He he had a got a good conduct medal, meritory, meritorious mass certificate, a Sea Service deployment, riven certificate of commendation and two letters of appreciation as a military lawyer who later analyzed Soul's military records, that he did exceptionally well. So he was he came out of there really good. He served his last tour of duty of camp Camp Pendleton, and uh, then he came home Cleve.
Now what what what? What would a neighborhood what would a neighbor say or people that grew up with him, or friends or family? How would he be characterized in terms of his character? Was he impulsive? Was he was he angry? Was he had a temper? Was he arrogant?
What was he? What was he like?
In those regards?
People said, you know, he was he was kind of a you know, I want to say he was kind of a weirdo. He didn't, uh, he didn't. He didn't participate in a lot of sports. He did box a little bit in the uh you know, he did a little bit of boxing. But he wasn't He wasn't one of the kids that you know that there was the popular kids. So you know, people knew him, they thought, you know, they tease him. Maybe he didn't he didn't get you know, didn't get all the girls and that
kind of stuff. But I don't know, it wasn't it wasn't anything that you know, there was nothing at that point where it would stand out where he was a you know, where he was going to be a bad actor. I mean, you know, so you know he was he was all right at that point.
Okay, Now he got out to the military in nineteen eighty five, is it?
And yeah?
Yeah, and what was he started to work almost immediately? Was he looking for works? Tell us what happened shortly after getting out of the Marines.
Well, you know, he got back to he got back to Cleveland, you know, you go home, and and he you know, he was he ran it. He'd always liked to have a drink, and he always liked to smoke weed. But by this time, crack had hit the inner city city neighborhoods, and and these these neighborhoods were getting gradually worse and worse and worse. And and so he he came back and everybody he knew now was smoking crack.
And even the place that he grew up was was filled with drug dealers, and and so he just started, you know, he was he's like a divorced twenty five year old guy, and you know, he had at that point he had a seven year old daughter. He had had out of Woodlock while he was in the Marines with his high school girlfriend, and he began drinking quite a bit and it seemed like he was lost. He you know, he had had an identity identity in the Marines and now you know, it seemed like he was
starting to get a bit of a head case. He had, you know, every day he was drinking. He moved into the attic of the house that they spent a lot of time and that he kind of grew up in finally at some point and just right down the street from his from his old high school. And uh, you know it was it wasn't great. It wasn't great. The neighborhood was really really really really really bad. He got arrested shortly after getting out on a domestic violence charge,
served eight days and in jail. You know, things were going going bad for him.
Now, what was he like before he entered the military, like say, when he was a young man, As far as your research was in your book and after the military as well, in terms of his sexual pro proclivity, it.
Was interesting, Yeah, what what what what what was going on was before he went in as a youth, there was sexual abuse in the house and and according to witnesses that is some half half sisters and so on. Uh. He he was an abuser, a sexual abuser of some of the girls, some of the siblings and the half
siblings and cousins in the house. So at that point he had you know, you put it, you put it, you look at it, and you go, Okay, this guy had already you know, he had looked it seemed like he was gonna you know, he he he had some problems, some emotional problems, and obviously you know, he was he was abusive. It seemed that he kept it there. He didn't you know, he didn't, he wouldn't act out outside
of that house. But but yeah, so he had some some some I guess, some aberrant sexual proclivities before he went in. But again, none of this had ever really come to the fore. He was never you know, it would never nobody ever noticed it. And I'm guessing he was in an environment where it didn't matter. Nobody's going to notice that kind of thing. Yeah, you know, I mean, and he he he he had Like I said that
we had an eighty eight domestic violence charge. His sister talked about you know how you know, he punched a girl in the neighborhood. I guess after after he got out and she had said how he was he was getting he was getting in trouble now, you know, he's he got popped for possession of cocaine and he's you know, public intox disorderly. He was, he was getting, he was getting in trouble. It was it was heading towards a bad, bad way.
Now after he was done on this downward slide, smoking crack and and really his life falling apart. Once an upstanding guy that could, you know, hold down an apartment in the job, and he wasn't doing that anymore. So well, now what was his sexual proclivity characterized by? Who did he interact with? Did he have a girlfriend and did he just cheat on his girlfriend?
What?
What did he do?
Who did he who did he know? Man, he didn't have any you know, he got out of there and he didn't really have a girlfriend. He was he was living a street life and and it was going pretty pretty badly for him, and it kind of hit a wall. Nineteen eighty nine, he in nineteen eighty nine, he assaulted a woman. He had taken her off the street. Now it depends on which you believed. But you know, so this is a this is a woman, and it's in the book. We you know, we had going to kind
of in depth. I interviewed this woman. This is his first victim. This is really the first time she'd been interviewed. I tracked her down in inner city Cleveland. It wasn't it was. It was tough, and but she told me her story and and then I read the reports. But what had happened was this woman was was out one morning, early one morning, after a long night on the town, ran into soul on the street. And this was to be repeated numerous times then over the next in the future.
And he talked her into coming back to his place. He had he was living in the upstairs apartment, in the attic apartment at a house that his that his family was still living in. You know, a lot of nieces, nephews, etcetera, etcetera. And and he took her back there, and he got her in there and he snapped and began to violently attack her. He raped her, repeatedly, tied her up and and it was and and he brutalized her, and she was lucky enough to escape with her life.
Tell us more about this, because this is telling, because it is I mean, you know, it is really telling for for his sort of m O and his signature and everything else I would gather. Tell us more about how she actually escaped from this eating.
You know, it is interesting because as I looked through the book when it was done, I read through and I said, why I didn't I unconsciously foreshadowed by by kind of led with this, with this assault, and uh so,
what would you know? What had happened was you know, he uh, you know, they got up there and as soon as he got you know, he got the girl, the victim into his room, and she was She told me, she said that he's he was nice, he was not a creep, you know, and they were talking about stuff and she said, she claims she wasn't going up there just to have sex with this guy, but it was Soul. But as soon as as soon as she got in there,
Soul slammed the door. And she said, she said, right in the books, she said, I looked at him and he changed his face, his look, and she said, she said to herself, she you're you're in trouble. And he locked the door, dragged a heavy suitcase in front of the door so she couldn't get out, and he pulled out a knife, and he held her captive for twelve hours. And again this would be this would repeat be repeated
down the line. Some years later, he and then he tied her up, tied her up, and he took a nap, and then he he woke up and he tried to choke her out a little bit, and he told her he was going to kill her. And he said, but he's too he's going to go to sleep first. He's too tired to kill her at that point. And he lay down next to her on the bed and was asleep in seconds. And there's there was an attic and
they had a tilted window. But she saw it and this victim, and she said she could she could do it. She could get out of this. And she said to herself, she said, rather die jumping, you know, she wanted she'd rather die trying to get out of here, because she was sure he was going to kill her. He was enraged, and she did. She managed to get out maneuver through this little tiny window onto the roof and called to some women in front of the house and they and they called the police.
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The shoes tied up and she showed him in her hands. He had bound them with a with a necktie. And she didn't want to scream because you know, she didn't want to wake him up. But within minutes everybody that the cops showed up.
Now, how did the police react to this? And what was the subsequent charges, if any, What what happened as a result of this? What was it? What was the interview like with Anthony soul as well? What would what did he he was, Yeah, he was arrested.
He was arrested, and and of course you know he you know he what happened was later on, you know, the case didn't go right away. The victim disappeared, and then so once that once the the victim disappeared, and and so the case there wasn't a case made. However,
not a little bit in the future. A few months in the future, another assault occurred, and this time again he This time again he was he was detained, and now they found the warrant for the East Cleveland rape, and now he was Now he was prosecuted, and you know, and that was it. In nineteen ninety he got five to fifteen years for that for that previous.
Rape, and he was listed as a which is important to this story, very very important to the story. Wise, we'll talk about this a little bit. He's registered as a sex offender, which is supposed to mean that he would have his DNA SAMP taken at that time and put into the Federal Data Bank. Is that it ut that's right.
Right, that's right, that's right, and it went in prison. Of course, you'd go into you'd have to get sex
offender counseling. And one of the prisons he was in over the fifteen years that he spent he was offered sex advanced sex offender treatment, but he never ever underwent any treatment because he told a state sex offender counselor that he denied, you know, he didn't do any he didn't never committed the offense, so he you know, essentially that's how that that prison was run is oh, you didn't do it, Okay, fine, I know you're convicted of it.
But if you didn't do it, then you know, they let him slide with that.
I see, they wouldn't they wouldn't treat him for something if he said.
Right right right now, no again, you know, to be treated for a problem, I guess they'd want him to admit that he had the problem. But at the same time, Uh, he also he said he didn't he wudn't want to take these because he would make him a target. Sexual offenders, of course, are scorned among inmates. And uh and so you know, he didn't want to be marked as a sex offender. That's a that's a that's a rough, rough rap in in prison. So he didn't he just didn't
take the classes. And uh, you know, he took other things. He took things like you know, you know, anger management and and uh and so on and so forth. But uh and and you know, alcohol treatment and so on. But really what he did in prison was he worked a lot. Uh, you know, he worked in the kitchens and he worked. He did the electronic wiring for snow removal trucks for the prison system, and did some engine repair. Again, he he thrived in prison because again it was it
was an institutional living. He could, you know, he could get by, he could get past everything because you know, he was this is what he liked. He liked being told what to do and how to have an order in his life.
And plus he was a sober app and he sould when he was in prison and when he was in the military.
So where in the registry, that's right, Yeah, that's right. So and this this will also this also played a role. He was you know, he didn't he didn't mess around with contraband, he didn't he didn't do anything. He had a pretty good, pretty good record. I think he had a couple of tickets in prison.
That was about It was his family supportive while he or any members of his family supportive while he was in prison.
They went to visit him periodically.
Okay, so he wasn't a banished from the family or anything. No, Now, how many years of that fifteen years does he ultimately do?
He served all fifteen In fact, as they tried to you know, and they they cut you know, you would always be up for parole, but he was denied every time. It was a really really tough you know when you read the reports, and in the book we talk quite a bit about the you know, these these reports. I like to rely heavily on records when I'm when I'm writing, and and you can see in there, you know exactly. And in fact, these will be up on some of these reports will be up on my website coming up here.
Book comes on October second, so we'll we'll have these up for people to read. But nobody was it was that the savagery of the crime just didn't disallowed his his early release. It would have been crazy. Right, So the.
Fifteen years also means though when he finishes that, that he's not on any mandatory role or probation.
So that's right. He is a registered sex offender.
Though right now, how does that work? He's supposed to register, and how does that all work out? In Anthony Soul's case.
It worked out. I mean he got out, and he he got out any registered I mean like he was supposed to do. He got I believe it was June, and and he he got out, and he went down to exactly where he's supposed to be, down at the Court Psychiatric Clinic in downtown Cleveland and at the Justice Center, and and he showed up. You know, everything was you know, this is what he was supposed to do. He had pled guilty to two counts of attempted rape and served
as prisons prison sentence. He got a job as soon as he got out, and he worked over at the Cleveland Indians A ballpark for a while and he later told me it was the best job he ever had for what that's for what that's worth. But September of five he went down. He got out in juneo five, about September oh five, he went down and and and underwent his uh, you know, his sexual predator evaluation.
And what was the results of that.
He was determined to be a fairly low risk to to reoffend.
And again this is determined by him denying that he is a sex offender and someone believing that. Is that the way that worked?
Yeah, I mean when you read the report, it's fairly you know, you read everything that he said. He denied a whole lot of things, and you know, he talked about his sexual history and so on. He said his first sexual contact was with his then girlfriend at age seventeen, and he said he'd never been involved in violent sex. These kinds of things he said, and so you know, and he said, in fact, he told him he never
used cocaine or anything. He said he used marijuana. And so he gave him his story, I mean, the story maybe what they what they wanted to you know, what they wanted to hear. It talked about they talked about he was you know at the end of it that he just had a low you know. They they said he was a I guess they said he was a He was a well functioning, he was decently functioning man.
And they what they have, they there's a test and then I hate to get into these you know, bog down in these things, but he said, he uh, he he said, he says six percent that of reoffending in five years, seven and ten, ten years, and seven percent in fifteen years. So really he had they gave him a fairly low probability.
Okay, so he's out in two thousand and five, you say, and yeah, he's out working, and and where's he now working? After the Cleveland Indians gig, he went.
To work for a couple of different places. He u he had, you know, a couple jobs. Then he finally went to work though at a at a rubber works place. It was a it was it was a it was a manufacturing job, and he really liked that. He really dug it. He again, he he liked he liked working. You know, that was the that was the main thing. But uh so that's you know, that's where he was, you know, so he he actually went he he'd lived
first with his half sister. He then moved into this this this old house one two two o five Imperial, which becomes a huge point, huge part of the story. In fact, in the book, you'll see it'll it'll refer keeps going one two two five. Everything comes back to one two two five. It was a it was a family that was in the house for forever and at that time, his h his his father had kind of
quit drinking and become kind of the local handyman. He was kind of a you know, he's kind of like an old he's kind of the old the old hood who kind of reformed and he's too old to be carrying on anymore. He had remarried very a woman that kind of calmed him down and everything. And uh but but the thing was, while Anthony was in prison, he had died. So now his stepmother was living there and that's the Anthony moved in with her. He lived at one two two oh five Imperial now and he was
working a job and that was it. It was a tough neighborhood, really tough neighborhood.
And there's important too that there's maybe you can describe the neighborhood in terms of the adjacent stores and businesses that become part of the story later. That's kind of a grim, I don't know, iron irony. Basically, what's across the street raised sausage, They tell us the.
Next next right next door to one two two of five Imperial as a sausage factory, been there forever and and so and then I'll just beyond that. Across the street on the same side of the street, on the corner was a beer store, a convenience store, and you know, there was some there was some other things. There was a little little eatery across the street. And you know, the thing that strikes you when you go to that neighborhood is it's just it's one of those urban neighborhoods
that just fell apart. Man. I mean, you know, over the years it used to be a beautiful neighborhood. It just again just fell apart. A lot of drug dealing a lot of drug you know, just just the whole, the whole gamut of street life.
Now this building on this home on Imperial Drive, he he lives. It's is it three stories?
Where?
Where? And where does the Anthony?
That's right, it's a three story, three story, a beautiful home. It's a three story building. And his mother lived downstairs. And eventually, first Anthony lived in a back bedroom on the first floor. Then he moved up to the third floor, so he lived had his own little apartment. He actually re kind of you know, kind of kind of fit it for himself. He put in some new plumbing and so on and so forth. So so he you know, he he kind of just moved in. He's working at
the place called Custom Rubber. He could walk to work or he took the bus, and you know, he'd you know, he he turned into a fix it guy. He was fixing things around the neighborhood. He uh, you know, he met some girls, you know, he he you know, he'd see him out on the on the stump, but you know, drinking a forty and they combine and so on and so forth.
So again, he wasn't a creepy guy. He was a guy known in the neighborhood. As you know, a decent guy, hardworking guy, normal guy. Isn't that the impression that people had about Anthony Soul?
Basically people did, people did have that. You know, he you know, he fronted well, he could talk. You know, he could talk a little bit. You know, he loved sports, so you know, you could you could have a conversation with this guy. He loved to cook, you know, and if if if he ran into a former military person, he could talk about the military. So this guy was
you know, this guy was was front and well. But that's also what the problem is when somebody does you know, it's the it's the scary people that confront well and present well that that turned crazy on you. That that's the that's the monster.
Now, he was a sort of a bigger guy five foot eleven, uh, you know, sort of muscular guy doacky guy. Yeah, but this many years of doing crack or at least what point does he sort of get down to sort of a leaner, sort of a gaunt more of a gaunt figure because of the crack people.
After a couple of years, after a couple of years there, he had met he had met a woman, a woman named Laurie, and uh, she was she was into in the crack and and he, you know, he picked up the habit pretty heavy from through her. You know. It's it, it's you know, he had already dabbled, and now he began, uh, you know, he began you know, people started coming by the place, Shady characters started coming over, you know, that
kind of stuff. And you know, hard drugs are pretty pretty selfish endeavor, so he was secretive and uh and uh and that was that he was, you know, he was getting high, you know, and his girlfriend started to realize it.
How was it? How was his behavior? Was there any erratic behavior once he was high on on crack or came coming down off crack? Did Laurie have any incidents with police or assaults or or violence with Anthony Soul?
Laurie. Laurie was a it was a big user. But and and yeah, I mean people started coming over, and when they started, uh, you know, she was Laurie was getting in trouble. She was always kind of getting in trouble. She had a pretty extensive, pretty extensive rap sheet and and so you know they were getting high together some of the time, and and and uh, and Anthony was hanging out with some other people in the neighborhood and uh, and so you know, it was it was pretty bad.
He was, you know, he was getting pretty high pretty often, pretty frequently, and you know, and and Laurie was, you know, not exactly aiding in a betting, but she wasn't really you know, a big, a big help. It's not like she's going to help him out and try to keep pull him out of this. She got popped for crack shortly after, not long after they met, and it got to you know, he tried to help her, but he,
you know, he wasn't much of a help. And and things are going south for him pretty quick because the relationship was starting to fall apart. This is a very important relationship to Anthony soul.
Why is it an important relationship to Anthony soul?
What? What?
What is it about the relationship and what it represents to him? Why? Why is this so important?
I think something finally touched Anthony's soul that he felt something for someone. And uh, and you know, there's a you could read between the lines. You read about things he said, things he people he talked to and so on. And this guy was kind of a He had such a it was it's such a stew of personalities, and I think it appeared that he had really, really truly in his had his own version of love for for
for Laurie. But it was also was a very possessive love, of course, and because it seems to be fairly common people like him, and it's obsessive and and so uh. As she started to fade away out of his life, you know, he began feel lost and that angered him. He was getting high. More and more. They would fight, you know, they would have physical scraps and so on, and he'd throw her out and then beg her to come back, et cetera, et cetera. But you know, nothing
good is going to come of it. They're both using.
So what does come to pass with Laurie and and with Anthony was what what does she come to her senses some at some point does she get beat up?
What? What made what she leaves? She leaves? There was? You know, she was she left and and in February of two thousand and seven, she was gone. They were still talking, you know, they were they were on again, off again, they were, you know, but they were they were still talking and Anthony had a heart attack. He was shoveling snow and it would seem that the drugs he had taken that weakened his heart and he, uh, he had he had a heart attack, and you know,
he was operated on. He nearly died. He was into the in in the critical Ward Cleveland clinic. But he was he was kind of covered, you know, he had he you know, he tried to come back to work and he couldn't work. And now Laurie is gone, and uh, you know, he he had to leave, you know, so there he was. He he he had no job, his girlfriend had left him, and.
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He was, he was a mess.
What reason did Laurie give to finally finally break up with Anthony? Which she needs to get him?
She was trying to she was trying to get her get her life back together, and and she couldn't with him. You know, he was getting unemployment, you know, she she you know, it was really it was things were really, really terrible for him.
Did she see a violent side?
She did. They had physical scraps and so you know, she was you know, she knew, you know, she knew. You know, everybody noticed how how much that they they how much the two fought, and and so on.
So you know, she was she was a scrapper herself though, to be fair, right.
Yes, that's right, that's right. Of course. You know this is a really this is a rough, rough place. But what's going on here is uh, something's going on in his head. Things are you know, you got to remember this is a neighborhood. Whe people knew each other, everybody knew each other. They all got high together there, you know. And uh, and so he was a guy again, he was still a guy that was around around. You know. Now he didn't have to work, so he was really around.
He was a scrapper, that is, he would pick up scrap metal and take it in. That's how he got some money, would get unemployment. Uh, and so on and so forth. So and he's still and he still had a crack habit, and still he was still smoking heart attack or not. And uh, then's things you know. So now now with Laurie pretty much out of the picture, the girlfriend, he's kind of on his own and he's hanging out with the locals, uh, smoking crack, you know.
Now, now the the women that some of the prostitutes did he and I you know, I hate even using that word because it's just these are drug addle that's right.
But that's you're right, you're right, these are these are people who aren't in their right minds. But they have them busted. Some of them had prostitution charges, let's put it that way.
Yeah, there's some there's obviously that's the main thing. If you look at all these people that they've had run ins with the law or drugs and then some other minor things I guess, but imprisonment for drugs, drug use and continued drug charges. But now the thing is, we got to Anthony Soul was born in nineteen fifty nine, and we're talking about in the end of the two thousand, so we're we're talking, you know, to what year are we talking? Two thousand and seven?
Two thousand and seven. We can go right to it, and this is where things kind of begin.
Now. I want wanted to ask you just for to set the stage because you do this in the in the book itself. Is the these women coming into the area because drugs are being sold primarily in that area. And then that's how Anthony is meeting them. How is he meeting them on foot? Is what club is he going to? How is he meeting these people? And why are they are they in this area? Uh? And tell us about his behavior after Lorie leaves and his life continues downward.
It's a it's a there's a it's a wide area in in uh in Cleveland. And he Anthony was a walker. He liked to get out and he'd walk all the time. He'd ride the bus, but he'd also walk a lot. And that's one of those things. He's just kind of a wanderer. So he would he'd get out and he'd uh, you know, he'd meet people at bus stops and so on and he'd see he'd see people out, you'd get to know people. Uh. And it was it was it was kind of a the neighborhood. Of course, Yes, it drew.
It had a lot of drug traffic and also had a lot of places to live, cheap places to live. It was it was close in Uh again, it was. It was a it was an urban, urban community of dysfunction, you know, it was. It was like a lot of areas and a lot of cities in America and uh, and it was it was a tough area. But if you wanted to score drugs, you could go down there. And if you had a habit, that was a good place to be. So so yeah, he you know, he was you know, he was hanging around and he was
having problems. There was something going on in his head. And uh and so he knew, you know, people at some of these people that ended up eventually turning missing had been to his house. They'd hung out at his house before socially and uh and so on. So so that's that's where we were headed. But let's go ahead.
I'll tell us what what starts happening in terms of Anthony soul and and and his victims in terms of people disappearing from this area. Tell us about the first victim and uh police response and what happens as a result.
Well, the first, you know, there was a a young lady named Crystal Dozer, and she was she's from the area, and she she'd had a rough, rough life, long list of arrests. She had some children, a number of children somewhere adopted by a family, and you know, so on. But she had a couple of one one childhood in particular who did very well, a son who was a marine, and so on. And but a Mother's Day, Crystal called her mother wish her happy Mother's Day, and and she
was never never seen again. She'd know she had been living about a mile from the house on Imperial. And they went over to the family that the son who was in the Marines. UH came in and came into town, and he came home and UH tried to find and then he went over the fourth District Police station. It was a tough it was a police station, a tough part of town. And and they said, you know, they
you know, he told the police. You know, he told the police about you know, his mom's missing, and the cops told him they could, you know, he'd get a report in three days, and he never got a Report's let's put we can put this in perspective a little bit. These are people, street people. They're missing all the time. They might be turned up missing for a week, they might turn up missing for a month, and they show up again. Cops oftentimes don't take this stuff real seriously,
and it's very common. They obviously now know that they do it at their own peril. By not taking a missing person's report, you know, seriously, they risk the possibility of something like somebody like Soul carrying on. But in this case, this is what happened, and and she she disappeared Mother's Mother's Day. That was the last she was seen.
Now we've got we're got to put this in perspective too. We this is a black neighborhood. Uh these are these are black victims as well, right, Which is that's correct?
That's correct, you.
Know normally not that you know, I mean, it's a black serial killer is rare. Well we'll get to that. Anthony Soul is black. And uh so anyway, this this is another again it's going to come up a little bit later about this race. Race will be an issue to a certain extent, or at least someone will try to make it anyway. So now what's happening in terms of the neighborhood itself is uh this Crystal again, she's a block away from Imperial, from Anthony's home there. So
what happens as a result of Crystal going missing? What do the police have in terms of leads? And then how do they how does everyone proceeed?
Well, the police really have have have nothing, They don't they don't really proceed. Well, what does happen though, is a couple of months later people, Uh, people said that that you know that there's a smell in the neighborhood.
And over the years that there had been smelled. This is a city, it smells and h only this time, you know, people are saying, you know that it's this is this is not you know, maybe it's not a you know, it smells like a dead person and you know, the people for it said, you know, dead animal whatever. And the city looked into it and they came over to raise sausage. It was right in that area, and uh they went over there and uh they told the ray the sausage. The guys that ran and raised to
they had to clean their traps there. Uh, you know, all their there do a lot of work to clean up their their traps. Uh. It was a sausage manufacturing. Really sausage smells good, so you know, it was it was hard to say what they were trying to do. They were just kind of looking and you know, they
were trying to find what was going on, you know, right. Uh, but but you know the thing was you got to remember too, he was still going on and off with with Laurie, so you know, so so things were you know, he he things were really bad for him, but things were still on and off with her. So she'd come by and uh, she came by and one night she says, you know, he's all beat up, and uh and uh and he you know, he if she wondered what was going on with him, and you know, he just said
he got attacked. Someone tried to rob me. You know, early two thousand and eight, she came home and found him. He was all bloody and there was blood on the walls and so on, and he had tried to clean it up and he said, you know, you know, I yeah, I got I got someone tried to rob me. That's how he said. But I beat the guy up.
That was cool, didn't Didn't he say he killed him or he took care of him.
You say, he said, yeah, he yeah, he said he killed them. But but I don't know about that, you.
Know, right, sure part of the story.
So I think that macho talk, you know. Sure.
So how did she react to this, in being attacked and the home was again par for the course or not such a big deal. How did she how did she respond?
She was worried. She wasn't living there, of course because right but because you know, he he but but she was, you know, she was concerned. She was kind of worried about it because at the same at the same time, she had her own problem, her mom was sick, and and she was actually uh she was actually beginning to uh to get her act together. But it seemed like every time she was going by the house over there, you know, she stopped buying and see him something that
was messed up with him. You know, he was he was cut or something like that. You know, right.
Now, in the neighborhood, the people that know and know each other, and a lot of these people knew of each other, let's put it that way, what happens in this neighborhood. Is there any more, is anyone on alert? Is there rumors circulating in the neighborhood? What's happening at this time other than the smell was starting to.
Smell eventually, and and this was you know, people began to began to chat about you know that and this is it was slowly gathering beginning about seven that that he was, you know, and nobody really talked about it too much, but you know, there began there were rumors that this guy was, you know, beating up girls and and and raping girls. But but nothing, you know, women
were going missing. Nobody put anything really together. Women were going up missing, and but he you know, he I don't know, it was it was kind of it was interesting that, you know, it never it never it hadn't really hit a peak yet. You know. Laurie was Laurie
was distracted because of her mother, mother dying. She got she went back to jail, and she had you know, she had had all kinds of problems, and she blew off a court date and you know, she was she was popped and and so finally she left him, she left him for good. They had a big argument, and she called him a rapist. She was she was hearing the same things, and and she just she moved out.
That was it. That was about let's see August two thousand and eight, so they've been on and off for about a year and now it was just over.
Now in terms of imperial drive, when is it if I'm if I'm jumping had just let me know and we'll slow it down. But when is it that he uses the second floor rather than the third floor, which is unusual because he's done all this renovating to the third floor and then the second floor really doesn't it's bare bones and there's nothing there. When tell us about that? If that's not jumping the gun?
So I mean, we can we go proceed. People had people had started to disappear. I mean, now we're getting to two thousand and eight. People started disappearing at a fairly rapid rate and and just not turning up. And it was really, you know, and these were all, you know, all drug users just about and you know, they were really you know, they're really a mess.
And so.
Yeah, he one night he had a friend over and somebody he knew, a girlfriend he knew, and uh, and they went up and instead of going up to the third floor, she said, uh, why do you come over? We'll go up to the second floor. And she wondered why. You know, it would later be figure out why. But he was the only one in the house now because his mom had gun had to live with her daughter and and spend time in the hospital because she was dying, and and so they she she she couldn't figure out
why they were partying on the second floor. And this was soon this was this shoe. He would attack this this woman. Now we can get that we are getting a little bit ahead, because everybody was disappearing, and we'd later find out that there were there were bodies up on the up on the third floor.
So what what happens? Well, okay, well tell us about this woman then then to get attacked and what happens as a results, and how many women had disappeared by this point.
I'm trying to remember here if excuse me for not being you know, when you get when you get to so many people disappearing, you can't remember. By that point, I think we'd had quite a few, perhaps even you know, I think we're I think we're at like ten maybe we're at ten. People were way up there by by the time that that happened. But we're getting into a point where a woman goes up an old friend and she had even actually procured drugs in the past for
Anthony soul, and she was a heavy addict. She went up there and that's that's when they that's when they wanted to hang She went over and she wanted to hang up, hang out up on the third floor. She couldn't understand it. They said, take a couple of straight back chairs and there's a you know, and so, you know, she wondered what was going on. And at any rate, they were talking and all of a sudden again he flips on her and she starts talking to her to
some girls around here have been talking about you. They say you're a rapist or you assaulted them, and boom. He punched her, you know, straight up and told her to take off her clothes, and he assaulted her. He tied her up with a he tried to strangle her with an electrical cord and and she woke up and he was apologetic and let her go. They were friends, Remember, she went out. She said, okay, yeah, cool. He's like, hey, come on, come on back, you know, and you know
we'll party later. He said, okay. She's like, yes, that's okay, that's cool. She left, and she pulled some mail from the mailbox and had his address, and she went in and reported it. She went to the emergency room, she talked to a counselor. The counselor there said they already knew of him, she said, she told me, And that's where things started to get you know, That's that's where the that's where the warrant eventually came from.
Now they got a warrant based on this person's evidence, this person's testimony, or where was the information she gave police? Now, what happens with the execution of the war do we allude to that if people remember at the very beginning that the introduction of your book, so basically tell us how they got this warrant and what the warrant was for, and then proceed from there.
It was a problem of cause Affid David and and it just simply said that he that he forced this this woman to engage in sexual conduct, strangled her with an extension court and rapel walls. She was unconscious at the home at one two two o five and it was it was for a sexual assault. But they sent a swat team and it's thirteen members assigned to the warrant. They went up. There's a two family home with a basement of third floor, and they went up. The first
floor wasn't included in the warrant. Third floor was noted as his residence. Boom, they went up there, he wasn't there. Went down, you know, did the thing you see on cops all the time, you're going through each room. Boom, boom, boom. They found a crack pipes and pot in his room. Male addressed to him. They had the right house, of course, and they went down to a room at the end of the hallway and there was a smell and they kicked in the door and the officers saw a couple
of people to his left. They had the lights on. It was dark up there, but they had the lights on. He drew his weapon and he looked and they were two bodies women. One had a clover shaped silver pennant necklace on him and the other one had a white dress pulled up to the waist. Their feet were wrapped in a garbage bag, and they had found two bodies, and that was that it turned quickly into a murder case.
And those are two women that they identified.
Fairly later to be later too, I later to be identified as among the eleven missing.
Yeah, okay, so now what what the now the the police have the ability to search wherever they want. Now they probably have the motive to search places that they wouldn't normally search. Like they go back and they get they get a heftier warrant, and now they can you know, they've got probable costs to search the entire place. And that's when the bodies start turning up. They're in the yard,
they're in the basement. There's another one in the crawl space up there, and h and and basically the same method of uh, the strangulation electrical core extension courts.
Yes, yeah, ligature ligature strangulation. They're finding they're finding jewelry, they're finding cell phones, they're finding clothes. Uh. You know, it's grim, you know, it's it's it's a it's just a terrible scene and you know it's a very.
Very Now, is is there evidence early evidence that there is a prolonged uh once these women are kidnapped, there's some torture and is there is there any evidence of that as well to.
The advance to become decomposition made it even hard to tell a time of death. But but yeah, yeah, you you there was there was evidence that there was there was abuse of the bodies, and you know, and so on.
Right right now, Anthony Soul is not at the home. So where is Anthony Soul? And how does he eventually again this is another just twists and turns. How does he get arrested?
He's at his half sisters tresses and uh and a neighbor saw the cops over at his house over on Imperials. His half sister lives just a few blocks away, and she goes over there and she knows, she knows he's over there. And she goes over and says, listen to cops are at your house and h and he kind of, you know, says okay, you know, and next thing you know, he disappears. He's gone. He's gone for about forty eight hours. And it's Halloween and the guy's out in the daylight
and he sees this guy. There's a twelve thousand dollars reward. He sees the guy. This guy is a real sharp eye. He sees soul walking down the street and he goes in and he he goes into the you know, he goes into the fourth District police station, the same one all these people have been reporting the missing bodies to the missing people too. And the cops. The cops go out and they find him right away, and there's a corner.
There's a car right around the corner from where the suspect was if his soul was walking down Mount out Mount Auburn, not not far at all. And they started asking him, you know, cop asked him who he won, and you know, they said, well, he said, well, you got me, you got me last night, and he didn't know what he meant, meaning he'd been stopping question the
previous evening. And they searched the backpack and he had a backpack with him, found a box cutter and a wallet and piece of carpet and Anthony say his name was Anthony Williams. And they said, well, listen, we're going to just take a real quick, you know, real quick fingerprint and you'll be on your way. And that's when he freaked out and he said, I'm Anthony, and he said, Anthony Saul, I'm the guy you're looking for, Anthony Soul And that was it.
And there was two fortunate cops right there when he admitted who he was, exactly.
Two lucky cops. And the one thing he told the cops was I just want to die. Yeah. Well, well he got his way because he sentenced to death last summer last year, the summer of twenty eleven, he was sentenced to death.
Well, it's amazing, you know, the trial. I mean, what's very unusual, as true crime readers know that for someone to take the stand, but the killer to take the stand, especially when the evidence is like this, it's or wanting to take the stand even he's incredible.
So yeah, that was that was a unique twist in the trial. But then the account of that in the book I thought I had that was actually interesting to write just about. I've never had to write about like that kind of thing. The trial was very it was it was it was. It was tragic. It was terrible because you had to hear, you know, testimony from these these victims and they were totally traumatized and you really saw the uh, the effect that he had had, the horror that he had reaped, and uh, it was it
was tough. It was tough. There was a tough book to write, you know, and uh, you know these others. I mean, no, no crime is a is a pleasant thing, but this was a really really extra tough one because of the number of victims and and just you know, hopefully we did him justice in this.
And you know, the thing is all you can really do is to the truth. And so you're not going to beat up on them being judgmental, and you certainly aren't judgmental to anybody, but you have to deteck reality as it is. And it's it's a harsh reality. But a lot of people know that it didn't always come
from Silver Spoon upbringing. So a lot of people know that there's the darker side of any neighborhoods or any city big or small, and so and people can end up on that the other side of the tracks pretty easy, you know, it doesn't.
Yeah, it's fine, It's very true, and it's it's part of that street culture. And you know, the main thing I think, and I hope I made that point is, you know what, they had a lot of transgressions, but you know, they never they didn't deserve to die.
No, they were they're basically drug addicts and victims and vulnerable, and that's why Anthony Soul took advantage of them. What I wanted to say too or about this is that these people all were in their forties and and had like extensive criminal records, but again they seem to be short, you know, prison wrecks for drug possession and continue drug use or again if it's drug trafficking, it's probably smaller amounts. So there was these people were really just they had
hard lives. A lot of these people had, as evidenced in your book, eight families banded together for lawsuits to try and it tried to gain support by having those eight family I mean, I mean, who could who else could empathize and identify or relate to what these women these people were going through with these women dying and
then having anthing soul. They had also said what's interesting your book too, is that the eight families had approached the prosecutor and said, listen, we would like life without the possibility to parole. We don't want a circus here, and and it didn't really want the death penalty. But tell us how the state and the county proceeded.
Well, that is interesting. The petition and they at they you know, they didn't really they didn't want to go through the trauma. They were they they they knew what kind of trauma with this this uh, this trial would you know, would would bring and uh and they they they said, you know, let's we don't want to do this. We don't want to go through this. This is you know, why do we you know, why why do we want to do this?
But but but sorry, sorry to interrupt you, but they also wanted this, didn't they want also want this because they wanted a full account of what actually he had. This part of the deal was he had to state exactly what he did so in terms of so in terms of for the families and for the police themselves. They wanted a true account of what actually happened here.
Well right, right, But I mean I think the thing was they if they well I guess, I guess the the the main thing was this this whole uh, this whole thing went to you know, went to went to go through uh. You know, they filed a petition and the of course, the the defense attorneys thought this would
be a great thing. The county just rejected it. And and then you know, you know it was it surprised the defense, but the state's position was that these cases, his soul's case is exactly why the state has a death.
Penalty, right right, yeah, from the from the just the cruelty and verbarity of the crime itself. Now in terms of uh, and we won't go and give everything away here but the despicable and deplorable Anthony soul. Of course, he tries to defend himself. What are the some of the attempts. So how did he attempt to defend himself? How did he go about that in terms of what was his you know, his strategy for defense.
Well, it was to to impugne the the the the victor of the surviving victims. It was, you know, they try to say, you know, uh, these victims again that the survivors would have you know, they were subject to dubious honesty, you know, and uh, you know, drug users characters are not always stellar. As he said that they had many problems, problems with substance abuse. They tried to paint them as crazy and it wasn't you know, I
got to say, the defense did a good job. They'd never really were abusive to these They did it with some sensitivity, if that's possible. But but but it was the best they could do. I mean, they didn't, you know, they they could not keep this from going really off the rails. I mean, it was a really really ugly, ugly trial. It was just it was it was terrible. They put they did put Anthony Soul up on the stand without being with There was a there was a
a mitigator. In the middation part of the sentence. Anthony his soul offered a very half hearted apology. This isn't like me, that's what he said. But it was the first time the public got to hear Anthony Soul talk. It was that that was very interesting. He said, this is nothing typical of me.
What did you conclude after hearing and knowing of his crimes and hearing what he had to say.
He was a cold blooded killer and he was just trying to you know, he was doing the best he could. But he was just a bad guy who did a really bad thing, and bad things should happen to him, you know, I mean, it's it's it's bad. I mean, it's it's an interesting that we have a justice system in which the killing is part of the justice system. That's odd, and so you know that that's a that's a matter of opinion that everybody has their own opinion on the death penalty. But all you could think is,
you know, there was it. It evoked anger. I think I evoked anger from from everyone in that in that courtroom when he testified.
Right, A lot of no and a lot of people felt with this trial too, that their complaint was and maybe it's a common one among a community of eighty percent black people, that nobody cared about these black people. Nobody cared because they were black. And you say, maybe maybe it was partially racial, but really it's maybe more about class than anything else.
I think it was more about class. That's right, That's exactly right. It's if you're if you're poor, you live in the wrong part of town. A crime isn't you know that they're not going to get the attention and the resources that a crime in a better part of town is because simply because of the rarity of the occurrence. As speaking as a long time journalist, you know, you look twice at these crimes that happened in a an
upscale neighborhood, you say, well, that's weird. Well, unfortunately, sadly, crimes in poverty parts of town, poverty ridden parts of town are not weird, They're common. And uh. And the idea in you know, in reporting is you try to report something that's out of the ordinary, and that's that's an element of news in a way. So yeah, it's it's it's it's a it's a sad fact. But it still doesn't excuse the fact that maybe the police would look the other way or or fall down on the job.
It's easy to say they did. I don't know that they did. I couldn't make that judgment really when we lay it out. I lay it out pretty heavy in the in the book, and I think it's for the reader to decide.
Well, I mean, the thing is, we're we're in retrospect. Everybody's a genius, so and we can all solve it. In retroster corpse, there is a grig lapses and gaps and judge and in judgment and assessment and these things should have been done in those things should have been done.
And we can go on.
Endlessly debating, you know, because we're not going to do that. But you do an admirable job of painting the picture of reality, what it really is, what was it really like? And what's always interesting. And this is not the only book. There's many, many examples of these so called prostitutes coming forward with these incredible tales that could have derailed these serial killers at least earlier and maybe avoided a few victims. And the few is very important. Any victim saved would
have been important. But they just they have no credibility because they do drugs. And that's I think even more disturbing to me is that it's true.
I mean, you just didn't have anybody credible coming forward and saying they were attacked because he didn't attack credible people. He didn't really know credible people, and so, you know, and I think that's a you know, this is common among serial killers that prey on, you know, in their own neighborhood. And you find that a lot more with the black sir killers, of which there are there are quite a few. They tend to pray on people in their own neighborhood and because they know they are going
to be missed, you know, that kind of thing. And I think also they pray on someone that they despise themselves. They don't like that element in their in their neighborhood. They feel you know, there's always that thing where you feel you're doing it. You know you're helping, you're helping the neighborhood, that kind of thing.
You're incredible, incredible, Yeah, Steve, I just wanted to tell you too, this this book is a real Like I said, I'm on my seat for the whole thing. Lots of books, you know, there's a lot of foregone conclusions. This one don't take anything for granted because just turn the page and something else will happen. And you've done a great job of bringing the reader right into the characters of this book. And it's a sad story. There's no happy
ending really, but it's an incredible, incredible tale. I want to thank you very much for coming on the program and sharing the story with us.
Thanks for having me. I appreciate you got a great show.
Uh tell us a little bit about You've got a couple other books your girl wanted and you're co author of Slaying in the Suburbs and you have a website. Maybe you can tell us about that and uh.
Yeah, it's a www. Dot Avalanche fifty dot com and uh, you know, I'll be posting some stuff on as we crank up, you know, for your you know, for the uh uh, for the press, for this, for this book. I'll be putting some uh, some documents up there that are later cited in the book, and perhaps some more photos as well, so you can go there and see some extra extra content and also be just talking about, you know, any kind of anything that comes out of this, any kind of press and uh, you know, just to
keep track of public reaction. Yeah.
Absolutely. It was interesting too, is that I said, how can I not heard about this? And and it was you know, it was the uh, the Casey Anthony case. And I went, oh, yeah, that that overshadowed everything somehow. Uh And and again it's just just what we talked about race and class.
It's like, well, true, it's exactly right. And I remember I was head, I was heading down to Cleveland to you know, to cover the trial, and uh and I thought, you know, I'm not seeing this on TV at all, and then boom it hit me, you know, oh I am seeing Casey Anthony though.
Yeah, it's the name here too, and it's marginalized people people in this city said, well, how I how come I didn't hear about that because because it's marginalized people, that's why.
Nobody exactly right, Yeah, yeah, of course, right, well it sure sure did. And and and again the title of the book, you know, Nobody's Women, is because I, you know, Rick came right from the start where I felt, this is terrible, because these are really Nobody's women. How did that happen? You know? And so hopefully we explain a little bit, you know, that they are human, they were human beings, and and people who loved him.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Well, thank you very much, Steve. People have been listening to Nobody's Women, The Crimes and Victims of Anthony soul the Cleveland serial Killer, with my Usholl guests Steve Miller. Thank you very much, Steve, have a great evening and hope to talk to you again soon.
All right, thanks again, Dan, good night, good night,