NO STONE UNTURNED-Steve Jackson

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coupon code true Murder and start shaving smarter today. The true story of the world's premiere forensic unit recreates the genesis of Necrosearch International as a small, eclectic group of scientists and law enforcement who volunteered their services to help locate the clandestine graves of murder victims and recover the remains and evidence to assist with the apprehension and conviction

of the killers. Known early on as the Pig People because of their experiments in locating graves using the carcasses of pigs because of their similarities to human bodies, necro Search has evolved and expanded into one of the most respected forensic investigation teams in the world. New York Times bestselling author Steve Jackson, the author of Bogeyman and Monster, vividly tells the story of this incredible group and a recount some of their most memorable early cases that, taken separately,

would make great true crime books. Following his participate participation in a necro Search expedition to Russia looking for the remains of a Russian noble in twenty and thirteen, Jackson was made an honorary member of Necrosearch International in November twenty fourteen. The book that we are profiling this evening is No Stoned Unturned with my special guest, Steve Jackson,

journalist and author and publisher. Steve Jackson and I just spoke to Steve a minute ago, and he was connected via his cell phone and had difficulties connecting via Skype.

and some interesting and fascinating updates have included. This book really talks about some of the groundbreaking forensic investigation tools outlined in this necro Search International that now, I guess have been creeping into common fictional stories and also a little bit into stuff like investigation discovery documentaries where some of this stuff, some of the things that they pioneered way back when at the turn of the century, have

now become commonplace. Here we are with Steve Jackson. Welcome to the program. Steve Jackson.

in that story contacted heard about Necrosearch. Didn't think much of them at first, you know, thought these were a nice group of volunteers, and you know, but he'd give a give it a try because he hadn't been able to find Sharer's body up to that point. So he contacted them and they went from there and they located the body and exhumed the body and the evidence that was around it, which was very important to the trial

and the case. So that's kind of how I got started as I heard about him working to another book.

other things. And so tell us about the origins of the Pig people and some of the first group members that identified that there was some and why the group was formed.

of a synchronicity at about the same time. Now, some of the people involved, we were in the forensic sciences, such as pathologists and forensic anthropologists, and and so they were used to their disciplines being applied to this, but still they were It actually mostly starts on there was a place called the McCormick Ranch south of Denver, and rumor had it that the rancher down there, the mister McCormick and his son, uh, these homeless men kept disappearing,

going down there and working and disappearing, and you know, we were some members of this group just who happened to they shared a love for Sherlock Home was in the Hardy Boys and all that sort of thing where we're watching television and the police had these bulldozers out on this property and we're just sort of tearing back and forth across the property, and they were thinking, boy, they even if they find the remains of somebody, they're just going to have disturbed the evidence so much that

a lot could be lost. Plus, you know, it's just sort of haphazard. And about the same time, there was a geophysicist named Clark Davenport who was watching a different television show and it's had these police officers were out doing the same thing with a back hoe looking for a body that was supposedly stuck in a fifty gallon drum and buried somewhere. And he was thinking, well, geez, you know, I locate feris materials using some some miment my equipment all the time. I bet I could find

a drum. So he kind of went out to the field and told what he did, and they they gave him a chance to do it, and they didn't find the drum that day, but they they found car parks and buried other materials. So the police saw the benefit of it and said, well, if there was a drum

out there, he would have found it. And it just started, you know, kind of these these friends who knew other friends, who contacted each other, and you know, started meeting at Denny's for breakfast and thinking, trying to think of better ways to locate clandestine graves and apply all these different sciences sort of as a many headed Sherlock Holmes is what they eventually kind of thought of themselves.

the Earth's field. And when that soil is removed and replaced, as very much in the digging of a grave, they would note those changes in the orientation of those particles.

And it doesn't it's this isn't it. It's not looking beneath the ground and seeing the skeleton. It's it's looking beneath the ground and finding an anomaly that is of a certain size and depth. And and it's just one of many tools, uh that one you're when you're talking about the anometer can look a little bit deeper. But they also have ground penetrating radar which can essentially help them look beneath things like cement pads by balancing radar

beams beneath the ground. And it does the same sort of thing that when you've disturbed the ground. It it has a different density. So you're going over say you're you're driving it over a smitt pad that's over some ground and most of the ground is of a certain density and or vel electronic field, and suddenly it changes. And this change is oh, six feet long by you know, two and a half feet across, and and you're looking for something along those lines. That's it gives you an anomaly.

And sometimes there's several anomalies and they have to check them all out.

everything that looks like a grave is a grave. You know, they can you know, they don't really see that as as a mistake so much as this is something we've learned from. So next time we back at this, uh, will will learn And it said, take even the case of share Elder, they'd actually located the grave earlier at

a time. Then then then they ended up excavating it, but they did so in the winter when the cracks that are in the soil and might and in this case they're using some cadaver dogs a system with some of the other means that they're looking for. Uh, the the scent was frozen beneath the ground. The dogs didn't

pick it up, and so they ruled something out. So you know, they learned little things about you know, the time the wind to go out and where to look and and combining some of these these things that you know, the psychologists know about killers that killers don't like to go uphill with with a body, even though share elders killer did go up hill with the bodies. So they also learned that you can't always believe you know what the experts supposedly know.

somebody else might be thinking. So he kind of wandered in there and said, hey, I hear you guys are looking for you know, uh, such and such a murder victims, and suddenly he had all of their attention and he said, you know, especially when he says, I think I can help you find him. So you know, all of a sudden he's he's part of this investigation when all he means is that he's willing to go out to this

area and search for a drum. Now, that case in that particular time and that was, oh, you know, I believe that one. Yeah, quite a long time ago, right was not you know, they didn't find anything at the time. But I can say that that case is very active again now and they're they're working on it. So you know that's there's that uh you know, there's no statute

of limitations on murder. And these these people, they can be real bulldogs when it comes to not giving up on something and willing to go back and do it again. So the infamous Janitor and the drum case may yet peace alved.

So when you have this group of scientists who say, oh, well I'm a botanist and she's a naturalist, and he's a geophysicist, and none of us are connected to law enforcement anyway, and they call you up or or actually they don't call a lot, they get contacted. Eventually, they have let themselves known that they have this these abilities,

they think and would like to try him out. And so the police a lot of times would come to them thinking, hell, boy, you know, I've been looking for this person for five years and I've heard about this group, and they're probably another voluntretier group that will give you the shirt off their back. But you know what kind of hocus focus are they gonna pull? Are they gonna

pull out divining rods and find bodies that way? And it's not until you actually and this has developed over many years to where now when they come in the FBI or police officers and I go to a number of these meetings, I'm a member and that phone member now not just an honorary member, but you know, the respect is there because they come into these meetings and suddenly they're being asked what time of day was this, what was the light like, what was the weather like?

What what is if they're buried in a in a car or a drum? What was is the fairs material made out of? You know what witnesses have said? And a number of uh, these questionnaires that the police leave thinking, boy, I I better go back to the drawing board and and learn more about well my own victim and my

own case and come back to these people. But it's sort of they come come to these meet especially early on, with a reluctance and then maybe you know, looking at him something like doing voodoo and then leaving with a great deal of respect.

But one that had come out was a young woman in Bail, Colorado, the ski areas here, Julie Cunningham was disappeared one evening at kind of after after ski ski evening and and Bundy's talked about a young woman in Veil that he had met. He had sort of a had a fake cast on his leg and hobbling along on crutches with his ski boots and kind of spotted her and asked her to help him get to his car, uh and you know, and get his ski boots in

there and all that sort of thing. And when he got her there, he knocked her out and he drove her west toward Grand Junction, Colorado, which is along the main interstate, and said he got out near a town, small town near Rifle, Colorado, and then took Julie off on a little side road that had a you know,

he was describing the area. There weren't really any signs, and he raped her and killed her there and left her body there and told the police in Florida about this, and this got back to Colorado and the police and Veil said, yes, we do have a victim like that, Julie Cunningham, who disappeared one evening and has never been heard from again, same time, same approximate date. And so they this is one of the early early neck research times when they were contacted by the police and with

a can you come out and help us? Uh. So that's how they got involved in that case.

because they realized that decomposing bodies gave off heat. Some incredible innovations here.

about thermal imaging? You know that a decomposing body and some of this goes back to the pig sites that you mentioned at the very beginning, where they were burying pigs and out in this large acreage and studying both. You know how plants change when body decomposes there or when the soil is disturbed. They study scavenging what do

bears and mountain lions and raccoons do. But they also do things like fly over the area with thermal imaging and see the changes in ground temperature as a body in this case pigs decomposed, so that they can use it on other cases and that some of these things will last for a long time since and for both the dogs or disturbances and plant growth out of an area that's been dug up, these can be years before they disappear, so that's part of putting all this together.

And then rather than adjust the geophysicists going out and looking with ground penetrating radar, they'll have a botanist go out and check the plant life in a certain area to help narrow it down, and the geophysicists can come in with his equipment, or the bloodhound handler can bring the dog in and they all just work together as a team.

Michelle Wallace. And some of your listeners are probably familiar as this has been a case's then on HBO and Unsolved Mysteries and and uh forensic files and many of these. But Schelle Wallace had was a young woman, a photographer in the area, went backpacking and one day and came down the road to return to Gunnison from the area around Crested Butte, came across two men who were whose car had broken down, so she stopped and gave them

a lift. And one of these men was named Roy Mellonson, who had recently escaped or not escaped, but been let go on a rape charge in Texas on a technicality. What she also didn't know is, and we only found out a few years ago, is that he had fifty days removed from having murdered a woman out in Sonoma, California. But anyway, Michelle picks picks them up and drops one of the men off at a bar. He was he

didn't know this guy. He was with Roy very well thought it was a little strange that he said he you know, asked Roy asked Michelle for a ride, and and they left and Michelle disappeared. There's this Roy Mellinson became a suspect, but for men. There was a huge uh manhunt for her in Gunnison for quite a long time. And uh but she just feared Melonson, like I said, became a suspect. He had a camera that he hawked.

He said he stole it from her and some things like this, but denied killing her, saying that he'd let her off and then he stole the car and her equipment and all that sort of thing. So this went on for many years, and then the Kathy Young happened to be going through the Gunnison Sheriff's office cold case

files and came across a box. And in this box was a you some braids, hair, especially the entire scalp and braids of a woman that had been found on a road in the Gunnison area and it was suspected it could have been Michelle's, but even a search in that area didn't turn up anything. And of course they they wanted to make a case against Melonson. They thought they had quite a bit against him, but the prosecutors don't like prosecuting cases in which there's no body and

no proof of death. Even though Michelle disappeared and very sad story, her mom couldn't take it in about two weeks into the search, killed herself and saying, bury me next to my body, when my daughter, when you find her. And so this lingering, sad story continued on, and then Kathy was trying to figure out, well, how do I find this body? I need this body to go forward with the prosecution, and she heard about nec Research, so

she invited them in. They she actually sent the Braids to Neck Research and their botanists looked at some of the fur leaves and pine leaves and things like that that had been caught up in the hair and were still there, and was able to determine what sort of trees they came from, and that this particular sort of tree they can determine stuff like that grows on the north side of slopes, or grows in the shady area,

or and and that sort of thing. So they necro Search sent the team up to u this this area in Gunnison and they began to do what is called a grid search. They you know, mark off a certain area and they essentially it's walking across this area looking for anything that's not normal. And if you think about scientists, a lot of what they do is observe and they are used to seeing what is different in any situation,

and uh, that's how they've been. They first found the actually the one of the naturalists found the skull, and from there they were able to find the rest of the remains, determined that the sell had indeed uh been hill as opposed to just got lost in the forest. And we're able to make the case against Roy Mellinson, which had been going on for twenty some odd years.

So it's one of those where you know, the bulldoggedness of both Kathy Young the investigator and then the work of Necrosearch International being able to find the remains and exhume the remains and find the evidence around it and that sort of thing made a case against him and he was convicted of murder. He has since been convicted in two thousand and eleven of the murder on Sonoma and is on a hold for another murder down in Louisiana.

detective work. And part of that is that you put in your stories about the detectives and their investigation and targeting witnesses potentially, and you have someone named Chuck Matthews is very instrumental along with the detectives in bringing matheson or to actual to trial. So tell us a little bit about work of the detectives to look at Chuck Matthews and Matthews to come forward and be able to solve this case with the help of this you know, co criminal Chuck Matthews.

for you and hasn't done his homework. And as I was telling you about those questionnaires and the way Neck research questions, detectives and agents and and that sort of thing, when they show up, it's pretty evident pretty fast who's done his homework and who's done who hasn't. And if they haven't, they will send them back to the drawing board, say check this, check that, check you know, all these sorts of things, get this information for you, and then

if you want after that, come back to us. But they were they are. I mean, if you think about how connected the work of detectives is as compared to the work that scientists do. Scientists are are your ultimate detectives. They are they have a problem they need to solve, and they they find all the evidence they can and they put the evidence together and they try to figure out the answer to a theory, and that's what detectives. Police detectives are doing as well. So it's they actually

in many ways think alike. You know, there are obvious differences, but uh NET Research insists that, you know, they give full credit to the detectives, and they insist that the you know, everything starts with the detectives. They are they are just one more tool in the in the arsenal for crime fighting.

talk about old times. But she's a very meticulous detective who stayed on his trail and followed him to different places and tried to put some of these cases, going to a certain area where he's known to live and asking the police if during a certain time did a woman disappear.

for everything. And the dramatic moment you're talking about in the trial is that he didn't know they had found Michelle's remains or all of them, and what they're going to do with them, and in the courtroom they had when he comes into the courtroom and the seated at the table, and they get ready to start the whole thing, and the prosecutor begins the opening statements. There's a square on a table and it is covered with a black cloth, and in a dramatic fashion, the black cloth is taken

off and there's Michelle's skull. And it was identified as Michelle's because of her dental work, and there was no denying that Michelle was dead. And here she was in the same courtroom. And this this brutish killer, smug arrogant brute. That's it's just the only way to explain this guy. Suddenly his smile disappeared from his face and he was

he notably trembled. This is someone he thought he had murdered twenty some odd years before, and and here she is brought back to, you know, figuratively from the graves point hint to point to him as her killer. And this is a man who, as I said, we believe has killed many women and would have been would have continued killing women he was in jail, but he was only in jail for some property crimes at this time, and it would have been out and he has shown

that every time he gets out, women die. So there, in effect, his Michelle back from the dead in a way uh to condemn him. And that's what essentially convicted him and and has him behind bars. And and like I said, he was also convicted and for that reason he was Eventually his DNA was put into the National computers which linked him to the murder in California and

linked him to the murder in Louisiana. So this this one effort by a tenacious detective in Gunnison who brought in these this kind of odd group of scientists and Sherlock Holmes fans and putting their everything together, brought a very evil man to justice. It's a great story. It's a it's a great story of justice triumphing over evil and good people putting their heads together and making it happen.

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smarter today. When we last left off Steve, we talked about the great success that they had in putting this. You know, a person that had eluded the authorities for years and years. This Melonson and brought closure for the family of Michelle Wallace in this dramatic trial. Now, in terms of was I know that there was other by the time they took this to trial, there was other

cases that necro Search International was already working on. But tell us what the success did for necro Search International and the media response.

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hadn't had a real success yet. This in the media, it became a big story. Like I said, it's you know, with an HBO special, it was on Forensic Files. It's you know, you can google Michelle Wallace. What you don't get is the is the story of Kathy Young and her tenaciousness, and neck research is part of it. It's all sort of buried in some of that which is

which is normal, but you know, it's it. It really put them on the map and suddenly, you know, other law enforcement people of course, are paying attention in there, and it's sort of do one of these things, whereas well, they found a murder victim from nineteen seventy six, and here we are, you know, twenty twenty years later. More than that, Ashley solving the case and putting a nasty serial killer away. So it brought in other police agencies paying attention to what are these guys doing and and

starting to share things too. Uh. You start getting agencies talking, uh, the FBI saying hey, have you when they because the FBI will be contacted, as we know, by a local police agency saying you know, we we have a murder victim. We don't know how to find her. Can you help us? And the FBI might be started saying things like, well if you tried calling neck Research International, and and I and I should point out that neck Research only works

at the request of the investigating agencies. They don't work for They won't work for a private individuals or or even families because they don't want to get in the way of the process and the process and and the things like chain of custom the and and and all of that. They work very closely with the investigating officers, and when it comes time for the law enforcement to take back over, you know, they step back and quietly go pack their things and go home, come back to

the trial if they're asked to to testify. But it so it was be a morale booster. It did bring other members into net research, people who heard about this and said, hey, you know, I think I have something that may may apply or be of help. I mean everything from weathermen to you know, all these other disciplines that you'd never even consider uh as as something in

forensics and so. And also it started bringing in more police agencies who are starting to get the idea that these aren't just magicians or or volunteers, that they may actually have something here.

nineteen ninety five to convict her husband. And also what I wanted to mention too is what really runs through this is, of course, the human element and all these people taking their and volunteering to do this and being greatly affected by the crimes themselves and the family's response, and seemingly their duty to do whatever they could to

resolve these cases. And one of the cases, or pardon me, one of the members that really seems to be portrayed in your book as a very very important member is the A one Nelson and his dog Amy and after Amy dies, so tell us a little bit about the importance of A one Nelson in his Bloodhound.

sure he'll start calling himself. But anyway, yes, Al Al is very important with his and his bloodhounds. And uh

kind of an amusing story. It's my my dad's favorite story out of neck research, which is, uh, they were having a meeting and this person gets involved, gets introduced as a botanist, and this person gets introduced as a a geologist, and this person gets introduced as a you know, an anthropologist, and so they got to al and he introduced himself as a slobberologist because his bloodhounds and and so that's that's that's the sort of thing my dad

gets amused by. But yes, he's very important, and he's and he's probably one of the best bloodhound handlers in the country and is well known both because of neck research but also just his work as a police a police officer just retired from the Sheriff's office. But you know, he's he knows his dogs and and is very good at what he does.

are dead. And it's many years later when Lori Kydell comes forward and tells the police officer, I think my dad killed my mom and then burned down the house, killing a couple of my sisters, because he's worried that

somebody knew something. But you know, it's one thing to have somebody coming forward twenty years later and say, oh, I think I remembered this, And you know, and I was four or five years old, and it was at night, and some of the memory was a little bit shaky, but something some of her details that she had seemed to be just too right on, to too vivid to just blow off her story. But you know, where is

this body? And you know, if you go went over to the house, there was a large concrete pad in the back and a pool or hot tubbish sort of thing on top of it, and all this and you have to have you can't just go on to private property and start digging around. You have to be able to get a warrant and permissions and all of these sorts of things. So and then a reason why you are you're not allowed to just go on fishing expeditions. The defense attorney will tear that apart in trial and

suddenly you have trouble. So actually, whiles they were waiting for the Melonson trial to come up, Clark Davenport got a call from a police officer who had been steered his way by I believe the FBI at that time. I'm a little fuzzy on that one, but he got steered down that way and went down there with ground penetrating radar. And this is another case of a police officer who you know, boy, I know these as far as what Knights volunteers willing to spend their time and

do all these sorts of things. But you know, this is a six inch deep there, six inch stick cement pad and pross, you know, all sorts of pipes and stuff running under this ground. What are we going to be able to find? And and as you know, Clark grand the grand ground penetrating radar in the back. And you know, not to be a spoiler on too much of this, but it's uh, it's it's another one of the neck research success stories that has built there. They're

legend up. It's you know. The the thing about No Stone Unturned is there's there's a collection of five or six two crime stories in there that are you know, each would make a great book. They're just uh, it's connected by this this eclectic, uh, wonderful group of people.

she didn't actually see her father kill her mother. She said she had heard a great amount of shoveling in the backyard. To her credit, how did tell us a combination of how she was so convincing and a police officer was so attentive and really objective in getting this story from a five year old to come to fruition. That's an amazing part of the story.

and particularly a mom who loved her kids. One thing that was clear to the detective was Diane Kydell loved her kids and wasn't likely to have just up and left, which was Jean Kitdell's story, is that she was seeing another man and just abandon her kids and left. So, you know, once again, it starts with a great detective, and all great detectives have a certain amount of intuition.

To me, it seemed was like the really good ones, they're good at what they do because they're meticulous and they and they you know, you use all the tools at hand. But the truly great ones seemed to in the cold case guys in particular, seemed to have that

intuition of what is real and what sounds right. And even though he knew this this woman, young woman who still had the marks of the fire on her neck and face, it had been twenty some odd years since this had happened, you know, there was just something about her and something about some of the details she remembered that, you know, and then he started looking into it and and did the research about you know, Diane Kidell was

a good mom. I loved your kids. Everybody said that, and but had never been seen, no credit cards, no being able to find her social Security CA number used again, and you know the but the problem with that is it's okay, well, how do you prove she truly didn't just meet him in and walk off. It's not that it hasn't ever happened before. And maybe they argued, just like the little girl said, and she left that night.

You know, the fire was suspicious, but it was sort of really poorly done investigation, so that didn't come out right away that it was being used to possibly cover up the murder of Diane. But you know, that's that's that thing with that necro search has to as good as they are, they have to rely on great detectives

who have done their their homework. So that when when Ed Reynolds, who was the detective in Arizona, came to Colorado to talk to necro Search at one of their meetings and they asked him all these questions, he either knew the answer or he went back to Arizona and got the answers.

the ground penetrating radar and doesn't really see anything. And then of course not everybody understood what ground penetrating radar does or sees or gives you. But you know he doesn't have this. Then some judge looks at it and says, well,

you know it was an illegal search. You know, you didn't have any reason to be looking in that particular corner of the yard, other than you are on a fishing expedition, you know, and dug yourself ten ten holes or something in the backyard, so you can run into all these legal issues when you do that sort of thing. But yes, it was It was good that the owner cooperated, but you know, otherwise it would have been a fight to get a judge to say, here's our case, here's

why we believe she's buried in the backyard. We'd like a search warrant, which is what they would have done next if the owner hadn't done cooperative.

and it was fascinated. But part of what fascinated him was that two of the children were missing, one of the grand duchesses and Alexia, the heir apparent, the son of the czar, and so he kind of made it his quest.

There's a fascinating book in this that I'm actually working on as a historical book because his grandfather and his father actually who's was the general's adjutants and married the general's daughter, and that would have been Peter's grandfather and grandmother brought some of the evidence that had been collected by a detective in Russia, along with the detective to Europe and included the Impress's finger and some other evidence and bullets and these sorts of things. There's a great

detective story. But so Peter thought, well, you know it just as he thought more about it, it was like, you know, my grandfather, great grandfather and my grandfather started this investigation to find out what had happened to the royal family and were unable to prove it or to find the remains. And and yes, some of the remains were found in ninety one, but what what happened to

these other children? In particularly we all know that, you know, there's been rumors that Anastasia survived for a long time afterwards, there were several uh fake Anastasias and and movies made about it and cartoons made about it, and and so he started this idea of let's try to find the last two children. And so he came to Neck Research, where he'd been introduced some of the forensic anthropologists out

of the University of Florida. I sent him to Diane France, who is a member of Neck Research and one of the top for instant anthropologists in the world. And and it's was a little bit out of character for neck re Search because they are usually working on provable murder things and helping law enforcement do their their bit. But I mean, how could you resist the historic implications of this and the romance of searching for the last two children.

So Peter got involved in that. Necro Search got involved in the early stage just but they actually got over there. And there was something of a minor international incident when the Russians wanted to say that the Grand Duchess Marie was missing in Alexis. But Diane took a look at all the bones that they had and said, no, I think Marie's here because of the bone bone growth and all these sorts of things, and I think it's Anastasia

is missing. And of course that just sent the Russians into attimdy because they did not want the Anasasia to this rumor to remain alive out in the world that there was a surviving Romana. So the part of NEC researchers thing would have been to find the other two children.

And but this this sort of got neck Research booted out of out of Russia and not invited back for this and and so but Peter did continue with this, and in two thousand and seven colassed to the two children the other grand Duchess in Alexia were were where their remains were found, uh what was left of them,

and so the family is together. There's still some arguments about uh which was Alexia, uh Anti Stasi which was Marie, But it doesn't really matter now because they've found everybody and it's been proven with DNA and you know, all these things. But just as that was wrapping up, one of the Russians came to Peter and said, you know,

there's one more Romanov missing. It's the Grand Duke Mikhail Romanov, who was the Czar's brother and actually tzar for a day after Nicholas advocated then and Mikhale was made bizarre. But I think he thought I saw the riding on the wall and desired he didn't want to be bizarre.

But in nineteen eighteen, about a month before the most of the rest of the family was murdered down in ekatering Burg, the Grand Duke Mikhale Romanov, who was sort of a dashing cavalry officer type, and his male secretary, Brian Johnson, were taken from their apartments in perm Russia and taken out along a road. According to some of the diaries of the killers and stopped and executed and

then buried in a shallow grave. Now, the Bolsheviks are famous for lying about, you know, where they put bodies and all these sorts of things, trying to throw people off.

So anyway, Peter decided that he would continue the search for the last remaining missing Romanov and I was invited to go along on that back the first search back in twenty thirteen, and I poked six and seventy holes in mother Russia so that a cadaver or dog could follow along behind me and sniffed each one of these holes to see and we didn't find anything then and other than a lot of revolutionaries Russian revolutionary war stuff that we were unearthing and finding, you all these sorts

of things. But we've narrowed down some other areas. They went back again last year and it didn't have success again. But we are going back one more time in June of this year to and we think we have a good handle on where we might find the remains this time and third time as a charm, we hope. But anyway, after after my you know, the necro search was very you know, they're humble people, but they did like the

book Notestone Unturned. It seemed to, you know, give them a here's who we are and here's our history and and that sort of thing. And they made me an honorary member of the group that back in twenty fourteen, and then they decided in February to make me a full member. And so I'll be going back to Russia as a full member of Necrosearch International as their historian and their media relations person.

Missing and Exploited Children. You've probably heard of that group before through the Department of Justice. They have members who are now members of nec Research and regularly attend the meetings.

You'll find different federal agencies have members and or people who attend these meetings, and then just sort of shows you the growth and respect that NECROS has that uh you know, they are they are considered peers of these people now, not not just your your nutty group of of fun, fun loving and and Sherlock Holmes loving uh scientists. They're they're right up there with your your your cape cape cruthaders.

or presently. So it is testament that some of these techniques that they've been innovators in have been adopted and accepted as credible forensic investigative tools, isn't it.

They are very careful not to be adamant about the uh the one hundred percent reliability of anything they do. Uh. Any good scientists, uh, you know, you have some uh television scientists and and experts supposedly and and all these sort of people who who get on and talk about, you know, the infallibility of whatever they do. But any good scientists will tell you there's always room for error, and there's always a possibility of of of data being

off or wrong. And and these guys are you know, and maybe it's because they come from these different disciplines where they don't have to be television stars or or you know, in the latest oj Simpson trial or or something like that, that you know, they they recognize the weaknesses of what they do, and they recognize and they try to eliminate errors realizing that errors will can be and will be made, but they do their best and and you know, it's just a testament that you know,

there are a number of killers who have been put away in good part because of Necrosearch, and there's more on the way. There new cases coming in all the time. And if anybody out there thinks he's got a body hidden that nobody can find, well they may want to talk to Jene Kaidel and Tom Luther and Roy Mellinson and Tony Imery about the body they thought would never be found because they're behind bars because of net research.

exact opposite. They're completely emotionally involved from the beginning to the very end and beyond. It would seem with.

I've met there anyway, just good people. You know, their mothers and fathers and and they truly and even the people who are in the law, who have been in the law enforcement side of it, uh, you know, are just you know, they feel for the victim. They they try and have learned through sometimes through errors, to be a little bit detached as far as you know, trying wanting to promise somebody will find her. You know, that's that's the first human thing that you want to do,

is don't worry, we'll find her. And and then realizing that, you know, as scientists, they can't promise that sort of thing, and that's hard on them and a number of them, uh you we talked about the give and take and flow of of the membership. Almost all of them that I've met early on are still there, but you know, sometimes they have to take a break sometimes. Some of these cases are tough on them. Uh, you know, they

are they they learn about the humanity of it. They they see the grieving families, They attend trials, hear about trials, talk to talk to people, and and of course, you know, detectives, you know, and I try to emphasize this in my books too, or you know, they're human as well. There's police are getting lots of bad raps these days, but these detectives who are solving cold cases and listening to little girls talk about how their father killed their mom

and killed her sisters. You know, they are family men who care for these people. And and the neck research people can't help but pick up on that too. A lot of it is they want to do this as much for some of these detectives as they do for their families, just because they know what kind of an emotional you know, costs this has on all sorts of people. The ripple effect of violent crime goes far beyond just

the victims. So yeah, it's it's tough on them. And sometimes they have to step away, but you know, it's kind of the amazing part is they come back and they are always willing to try try again.

everything that's bad is in the past. Tell us just a little bit about before we end, just tell us a little bit about that story.

loved by her mom and her dad. And as I said, two weeks into looking for Michelle, sort of realizing that she's gone and this wasn't Michelle, that something had happened to her, George went to bed with his wife one night. His wife had been down in the kitchen, and when he woke up in the morning, his wife was dead. She had taken an overdose and left a note saying, I can't wait anymore and please bury me with my daughter. So so George had to bury his wife we loved

very much. And he had a missing daughter who no one could find, and a killer out there somewhere who no one could convict. They found Michelle, Uh when they did, and you know, which, of course brought him some closure. But he he and they and they went to the trial and and this this killer was, Uh did and he got to look at that man and and know

that this that the killer was was caught. But the day before Michelle's remains were sent to him to bury with his first wife, his his second wife died of cancer. So essentially George Wallace had lost first wife's second wife and his daughter. And and when when something like this happens, you know, any of us who are parents have to understand that you lose the child like this it life is. You know, life goes on, but it's never the same again. And then to have lost your daughter, your wife, your

next wife to cancer. And then to top it all off, George is living in Florida when two men broke into his house and beat him into a coma and George died several several days later. It's just sometimes you look up for this guy and you and you ask, uh, you know, what's what do you think? What's what's going on here that anyone family has to uh suffer that much? And you know, and then they're there right now, at least here on this planet. There are no answers to

some of that. But you know, you do have dragon fighters and slayers out there and and monster hunters, and you know, I always like to end these shows that as dark as some of this stuff is that there are good guys and they do and they may be detectives or the FBI agents, but they also may be people like Necrosearch International, who you know, fight the darkness and and try to bring justice and some answers, even if we don't get all the answers.

of law enforcement and these new these new crusaders, employing all of their scientific knowledge and again just from the bottom of their heart, volunteer their time and energy to this very honorable pursuit. And I want to thank you very much for talking about this with no Stone Downturn.

As I had mentioned earlier, you are also a publisher of Wild Blue Press, so other than no Stone Onturn, maybe you could tell us a little bit what's next for yourself and maybe a couple of other interesting true crime offerings from Wild Blue Press.

authors by authors. We're trying to uh, not just be an indie publisher, but the new faiths of publishing and get up and bring ourselves up against the big boys with what we offer, both in new books and in backlist such some of these true crime books that never never got much publicity or much knowledge just because of the way traditional publishing has gone. But I'm working on several. One is the Russian book, the Peter Sarandinaki's book. I've also I will be doing a book on Roy Mellinson

and his depredations. I barely scratch the surface of that brute. And then I had my own a little run in with a gunman last August and uh and he finally just that sentence, And so I'm going to be writing a little bit of a story on on that incident and what came of it, and and uh uh and

and that's that's Uh. There's a story out here about Austin Siga, seventeen year old who kidnapped and murdered a ten year old, which is not my usual sort of story I want to do, but it's a story about community and family and and once again, uh, you know, uh, a light shining there in the darkness of some of

these things. So we have a we have a lot of authors coming on board and a lot of new books, and anybody wants to check us out as we're at wild bluepress dot com, and I invite you to to take a look and try our writers that we're trying to get some people who might I get the opportunity of the opportunity as well, and to do it with quality and style. So you are, We're proud of what we're doing and we're getting there.

fans as well, So I applaud you for that. I want to thank you very much Steve for coming on and stock talking about no Stone Unturned and necro Search International. I want to thank you very much and have yourself a great evening.

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