Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my dentist's office more than once.
Actually do I have to say?
Yes? You do?
In the car before my kids pta meeting?
Really? Yes? Excuse me?
What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
I never win?
And tell well, there you have it.
You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot com. Play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky?
Nobri just necesaryfoid?
We're gonna be my long eighteen plus terms conditions of pluck seems every details. Hello, it is Ryan and we could all use an extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we? Just to make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. Chumbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games you can play for free
anytime anywhere with daily bonuses. That's you brighten your day, Lowe actually a lot, so sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck Casino dot com.
No pusses every where, every I lost e terms. It is a eighty play block. Tadian.
You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening.
A Michigan couple's affair leads to true grizzly murders by heroin injection. In this true crime account from the acclaimed author of Lobster Boy. When Carol giles friend Nancy Billeter was found dead, she had been bound, sexually violated, and injected with the lethal lethal dose of battery, acid and heroine. Detectives in Michigan traced Billeter's death back to Giles and her boyfriend Tim Collier. Police also learned that the diabolical
duel shared another secret. They had murdered Giles's husband, Jesse. Jesse, who had died months before Billeter was disinterred and in an autopsy proved he had been given a lethal shot of heroine instead of his prescribed insulin. Home Bound and diabetic Jesse was a heroin dealer. Police determined that Giles, who had fed up with taking care of her husband and children, along with her lover Collier, had stolen the
final dose from Jesse's own drug supply. The cops surmised that Billeter's death might have been due to her knowledge of the couple's plot. In their dramatic trial, Giles and Collier turned against each other, but both were actually convicted of murder. The book that we're featuring this evening is Needlework, Battery, Acid, Heroin, and Double Murder, with my special guest, journalist and author Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, and thank you
very much for agreeing to this interview. Fred Rosen.
Zupsky. Any time that I get to go on your show is a good day, okay, And I really appreciate this opportunity. I have to just tell you that, and you know, I just have to mention this to everybody that's listening, because you have such an incredible listenership across the world, and I just want to say that the great thing is ladies and gentlemen. This gentleman reads every book that he talks about, and not everybody who does
what he does do that. So I just wanted to stay that, okay, and I'm finished, Thank you very much.
Fred. It's just an honor to read them. I can't understand why anybody wouldn't read them in their entirety because many many stories, right to the very end, you're not quite sure what's going to happen, and that's the beauty of it. Let's get to this. This is November fourteenth, ninety nineteen ninety seven. You open this in Michigan West Bloomfield of Township outside of Detroit, Michigan, and this is Genesee County Sheriff Department in Genesee, Michigan as well. Tell
us about the fishermen and what they find. One day, and you introduce a detective Shanleyan So tell us a little bit about him and what the fishermen tell them that they find. Tell us about what they find.
Well, what happens is people are just out you know, it's in the winter, and you know, uh, they for whatever reason, you know, it's the winter, and they go out fishing and in a local you know, a local river. And what happens. They see a something covered on the trail they're on going into this park. It's it's something, and they're not sure what it is. And then they get closer and they realize it's a human body and it's it. And so these people are just shot, as
anybody would be. And the next thing you know, they call the cops. And Kevin Chanlion is a detective for the local police department. And you asked me to tell you a little bit about the guy. Well, I got to tell you that I didn't even you know, I was reading the book again, Dan, and I can't believe I didn't put this in. But it's what I put in was the fact that Shanley in unlike you know cops in the movies and detectives and so forth and
TV shows, he keeps his gun and his desk. He only takes it out when he's got to go out into the field. And I remember something. I didn't put this in. That's exactly what Andy Griffith did and the Andy Griffith Show. And I'm looking at this and I'm going, jeep, bred,
why didn't you mention that? But anyway, The point is Shalian gets involved and he's one of these incredible police officers, detectives that you see occasionally, I won't say often, but occasionally, the kind of person who uses everything in their power to bring justice to the dead.
Right now, you talk about the body that they find and Challion and other officers that are at the scene. They find this body that was, as they discover, looked like somebody was trying to burn the body. They made a fuse out of leaves, but the fire stopped at the asphalts of the body was not burnt at all whatsoever. Really, the police took vehicle impressions in this parking lot and this place where this was was next to Flint, Michigan.
And you write about reference between West Bloomfield and Flint. Flint one of the highest per capital murder rates in the US. So people have heard about Flint, Michigan. But they found this woman with face bloody and bruised. Her left eye had been bruised, multiple lacerations around her neck. You write that she had a coke spoon around her neck.
We remember those from the seventies and the eighties. She was wrapped up in a bedspread a flowered bedspread, her underpants were pulled down, her brawn her top were still up, but there were small wounds and it looked like burn wounds.
And so.
So right away this is they have no idea who this woman is. Obviously the perpetrators tried to burn the evidence and the person. So Shanleyon is now looking for somebody like doctor Mueller, the medical examiner, to take a look and see what they can determine from that tell us where Shanleyon and the doctor Mueller discover about the body and its condition and what might have happened.
To this perstl Well, yes, what they find as far as the body, certainly a cursory examination showed that death decedent had been beaten a lot, Okay, beaten a lot. And then they discovered that there were various injection sites. Man, you can't make this up there, and it's true crime where we're with with burn marks, okay, over those injection sites.
But the most important piece of evidence, and it shows of course that we're not dealing with criminal masterminds doing this, was the fact that she was wearing a T shirt that said South Boulevard Station. Okay, you know that's so and it was pretty easy for Shanley and to figure out Okay, uh that you know, let's look that one up. And they found that it was a restaurant south of Flint and and that led them to the identification of
the body. But it still was a long way from there to figuring out who'd done it.
Yeah, you talk about right away when they identify the person as Nancy billet Her.
Yes, they soon.
Talked to a friend named Caroluboy, and so they talked to a few people. They talked to Carol, and they talked to a person named Skip Selbach. And of course they're talking to people at work to see what happened that evening. So what did they determine that evening when she did go to work and then when she left, what did they determine happened behind one time to the other?
Okay, what they determined was she went to work. She was living with at that point temporarily with her friend Carol Giles in West Bloomfield Township, Michigan, and she lived with her mother, but Carol's husband had died recently, so she'd moved in to help her out. Giles had two kids, and of course she also had a boyfriend named Tim Collier. And so what occurs here is that Nancy Billeterer has a very big heart, and so she wants to go and help her friend, and that leads to what it leads to.
Now, you talk about Carol's background, talking about fifteen years old and just this trouble background. Tell us a little bit about her background with her father, oh and the allegation she makes against him. And then in light of this troubled background at fifteen years old, who does she meet?
Oh? Boy, you know, I'll tell you something. You know, when you read you know, look, when you read this stuff and police reports and you talk to the police and they give it the info. If you put it together and you got a heart, and that's important in this work, I feel, then it really can get to you. And what happens in Carol Giles's case, she alleges that her father had ancested her. I mean, I mean, I
have trouble even saying it, okay. And what happens is she wants to get the heck out of the house to do and again this is in Michigan, and so she winds up meeting a guy who's oh, I think let's see Jesse Giles as I think about nineteen years or twenty years older than her. So she meets this guy, Jesse Gild who's a and this is relevant because of
what happens later. He's very overweight, talking girl boy, you know, the short guy, not you know, five to six, maybe over three hundred pounds, diabetic, okay, but he is basically like the father to her she never had. That's what's so interesting about this. How she's repeating the pattern of going to somebody and this guy is abusive to her in various ways. And he's a drug dealer. I will also tell you that he's the smallest drug dealer I've ever written the pet We can talk about that later,
but it's a very interesting relationship that way. You know, how who's a views It could be a guy who makes no different person. You know, you don't have any self esteem. It's understandable. So what do you do? You try to find a way out? And how does she find a way out? She goes with a drug dealer who's more than twice their age.
You also talk about it to become business associates. So we just lends you the idea that she's not just an innocent bystander in his drug business.
Oh.
He at the time of his death, he's over four hundred pounds, you right, about four hundred and fifty pounds, So he's quite sickly and diabetic and inactive, we'll say, to say the least. But also that keeping with the abuse, that often she prostitutes her out as a favor to some of his drug clients.
So that's part of what Dan, Dan, thank you.
You know. It's like, sometimes I feel like the naive guy in the world when I find out stuff like this. I go, I didn't know about this, and that's you know, I didn't know that drug dealers would have a woman close to them who they would then as prostitute out and that's exactly what happened here. And again what's so interesting. You know, everybody goes through life with decisions to make. Dan, no matter what the hand is, were dealt in terms
of our backgrounds. Well, she said, okay, I'm gonna marry this guy, you know, and she also decided to marry well, sheould also mention this guy as African American, and that was an affront to allegedly to her father at that point in time. So here's a situation where she's basically trying to work at her problems and she goes forward
and doesn't have the skills to do it. You know, you should have got You know, that's an interesting one too, because there's nothing in the record regarding that I've seen how she did in school that would be interesting, you know, now that we're talking about it, you know, did anybody ever notice anything? You know, did she ever report anything? But so you know, I didn't find anything like that when I was writing the book.
Continuing with this, Nancy's mother is contacting.
The police.
Of course, got the tough job of knocking on the door. It's missus Phillis Burke and they say, listen, your daughter, Nancy's been murdered. When was the last time you saw her? And as you're writing a book over a sadder part of this is tell us a little bit about this last thing that they remember that the mother remembers about the daughter.
I'm trying to remember. I reread the book today, but I don't remember all the details except for this.
There was a problem, right, There was an argument, and the last time they saw each other they argued, So again, just another the last memory of her daughter was just regrettable.
An argument argument, Yeah, thanks man, thanks, Yes, they had an argument, and you know, you can't you know, I can't even imagine what that would be like, you know, to lose you know, God forbid losing a child, but let alone after having had an argument, you know, and they were having problems and so forth. There's never going to be any closure. There's never going to be any closure.
And it points up to me all the lack of a better term, the collateral damage in a case like well, just like in any case, Dan, I mean the family, you know, the family, and you know, and having the family having to deal with this stuff, and you know, how the heck do you deal with it? I mean, you know, I've actually got a situation in my family where I feel like somebody cousin of mine was murdered. But it's so specious, it doesn't it's nothing. You know this,
you know what I'm saying. It's like, you've got a very basic situation here. This woman was murdered.
You talk about Detective Milkie and Edwards and they're talking about missus Burke. Now Nancy's siblings, Susan, Karen.
And Doug.
They talked to the desetctives and say, yes, she had a coke problem. So now the police understand that she had the cocaine might have something to do with this, but she definitely she has a coke problem. She had a child out of wedlock, and this is she tried to raise her on her own and she worked hard, and she was a waitress. She had been married ten years before, and her mother took care of Nancy's baby. What eventually police find out from talking to people at
work is that someone had driven her home. What they find out is about again that Carol Giles is Nancy's roommates. So they finally find out where she lives, knock on the door and they get to talk to her.
Well, in fact, if I may to interrupt for a second, they don't knock on the door. What they do is when they found out that Giles was the roommate quote unquote man and they you know, it's like in the movies, they drove their car right up, you know, behind hers, and she was just on her way out, and that's when they started talking to her. And that's when they started talking to her. And and then and that's you know, the beginning of you know what, what the whole plot is.
It's interesting too that these again when you mentioned that these aren't the brightest criminals around, while the police take advantage of that their lack of experience, especially Carol's lack
of experience with the law, so they taught. They ask her if if she has any drugs or guns, and she does not have to answer questions, she does not have to submit to a search, but if she volunteers this information, she volunteers and offers to be and it replies that she yes, she will be searched, and that's certainly what the police will do. So what do they find on her person?
Oh? Well, they find drugs. What do you call it? The crack? I gotta tell you, Dan, that this was an education. I don't know anything about back so you know, I mean, you know, the the most I've ever done is weed. But you know, you know, it's all about crack, okay. And oh and then they also find, uh, she's got a gun. Mm hmm. She's got a gun. And and then when they in the they find it in the car, they find uh, what is it? Battery aster? Mm hmm.
And it's like, excuse me, you know, what's that doing here? So you know, they find some stuff that none of it makes any you know, no, none of it makes any sense. I mean. And and of course I'm sure that you know, I didn't get into it at the time, but I'm sure she didn't have a license to carry the weapon, you know what I mean? And neither did he her boyfriend, Collier, who had an automatic that he usually kept in his waist band. You know, to me, Dan, what it what it what? What it says to me
is how you know? On one hand, you can have people like Tim Collier who grow up for whatever reason, it's bad guys. On the other hand, you get people like Carol Giles who get abused and then what is that lead You're making wrong decisions as an adult that leads to murder?
Whoa You know, we will, we will, we will talk about this.
But I also think that there's an incredible and this won't be a surprise to anybody, but this is there's an incredible reaction to these drugs. I think that I think a person into the froze of addiction could leave their children like these people do for hours and.
Hours of people to go do what they need to do. But that is just one of the things.
I mean, Carol talks about her children later like she's a caring mother, but that's not the case. That's just
a that's a story. But let's get back to let's get back to this with Carol, because it really comes down to the unsophistication, the lack of sophistication of Carol and some and savvy police as well, because I got to say, there was a point here and it becomes an issue later where she may ask for a lawyer, she may ask for a lawyer, and all of this would go away, and all this information about Tim and
Nancy and what really happened wouldn't happen. And then they ask, well, you can have a lawyer, or you could talk to a detective. Oh Man post just a little bit about this little bit of wordplay to be able to comfort her, this strategy, to be able to get the information they needed to get from her.
Do you know what This is the reason why whenever I do an interview with you, I have to read the whole book again because otherwise I'm not prepared. And I and I of course I you know, I just read that again and basically what we're saying here is that they needed to know what she was thinking. Asked the question again, I just got off track for sick, Ask the question again.
They have they have a dilemma.
There is talk, you know, even though they've coaxed her in this interview to get quite a bit of information, at some point she has the opportunity to pick a lawyer and they pose a question to her to get her not the lawyers. Pretty ingenious, very simple, tell us about that.
Yeah, what happens is, thank you. What happens is because I tend to get off track. That's where you come back and getting on track. What happens is every time, every time a person it turns well, it turns out that, at least in Michigan, anytime they interview with suspect, they give them their rights. So every single time they do that, and because the individual is interviewed a number of times, it's not uncommon. Well, what happens here is she Carol Giles,
requests a lawyer. Now, once you request a lawyer in the United States dates the interrogation is supposed to stop and you can't ask them any more questions. Well, the detective in this case says, well, he says, uh, we can get you a lawyer, but which we can. Also we also have the detective. You can talk just right outside over here, and she says, okay, I'll talk to
the detective. It was an absolutely brilliant piece of police work, didn't violate the suspects rights, and then she wound up talking to the detective and gave some interesting information about what was going on.
Now, Carol says that night, she right away is telling police a story, and the police just have a sense that it's not complete story, there's something off with it. But the story she has is pretty horrifying. Is that Nancy got her home around eleven PM that night, and Nancy and Tim went to the basement and they smoked some crack and Tim was upset with Nancy at burglary had happened while Tim and she were in California on vacation.
So Tim is accusing her of stealing a VCR and apparently she says, first off that Nancy's called someone on the phone about one thirty am and then the guy picked her up. But they know that there's more to this story. Obviously, where they've searched the Carol's car, she has a Cadillac, and she has a sable and they and then again like you had mentioned, they find this battery acid, and they find a handgun and then they find they find her driver's license under the driver's seat.
So there's more to the story, and she talks more. They keep pushing her for more information.
Yes, they do. And actually you're making a very very very good point, which is and I didn't say this in the book, but you're making a good point, which is what they're doing here is separating or trying to separate the two suspects who they know are involved, but they're trying to separate them emotionally so they can get the truth out of one, at least one of the suspects. Because one thing they know for sure, they know that Collier is a really bad guy. And it isn't so
much the guy's record or it's the vo vibes. Okay, it's the vibes and all of the information that we've discussed regarding Carol Giles's background. The police had all this information, so they knew exactly what they were dealing with, you know, they knew exactly what they were dealing with, and you know, so it was well, it was a challenge to put it all together. They met the challenge.
Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a flight the other day playing one of my favorite social spin slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over the person sitting next to me and you know what they were doing. They were also playing Chumpa Casino. Coincidence, I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino's home to hundreds at casino style games. You can play for free, anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. So sign up now at Chumbuckcasino dot com to claim you're free.
Welcome bonus. That's Chumbu Casino dot com and live the Chumba Lane necessary davod where Ever, if I lost in terms of conditions eighteen plus, It is Ryan here, and I have a question for you. What do you do when you win?
Like?
Are you a fist pumper, a wooer, a handclapper, a high fiver? I kind of like the high five. But if you want to hone in on those winning moves, check out Chumbuck Casino at chumbacasino dot com. Choose from hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to redeem serious cash prizes. There are new game releases weekly plus free daily bonuses, So don't wait start having the most fun ever at chumbacasino dot com.
No necessary void where everybody lost the terms conditions eighteen plus.
While they have her in costady, of course they're going to look for Tim Collier.
And they do find him.
And of course, again the unsophisticated prisoners that they are, they they give they read him her statement, Carol's statement, and he doesn't say anything, and he has an ability to lawyer up, which would have been probably a super smart idea.
And yet what does he do, as I recalling, makes a statement.
Absolutely, and of course, as you allude to in the description of synopsis, of course he tries to blame. He thinks, jeez, I'm gonna spend there is no death penalty here, but I'm gonna spend the rest of my life in prison. I'm gonna try to get in front of this right and put the blame on Carol.
Yeah, and I think we should explain that to the listeners that Michigan, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the states that got rid of the death penalty. I wrote about it in my auntlass of crime, and I want to say it's at least about one hundred and fifty years ago, you know what I mean. So they don't have the death penalty, folks, but what they do have
is a thing they call natural life. And so in a situation like this, what would what would happen is if the end of if the if the bad guy and the girl are convicted, they not only go to jail for the rest of their lives, they'll never get out in for all. It's natural life, that's it. They're throwing the key away, folks. So this is this is it's a big thing. You know, it's a big thing.
And of course both defendants are going to go against each other because you know, they want to get a leg up if there's some way to get a leg up. Though actually, as we're talking about it right now, I realize there's no way to get a leg up on any of this stuff. I mean, look at what they're charged with. They're charged with murder one. You know, Yeah, there's no there's no negotiating here. There's no negotiating. And there's something else I should I should also mention, which
I didn't talk about in the book. I discovered this much later, Dan. You know, most most times of looking at the American criminal justice system, usually you know, you say, okay, the North is liberal, the West is liberal, or you know, the west coast whatever in the South is conservative. Blah blah blah. You know, well, here's a fact, Michigan is
a very conservative place. So that's very very important in a situation like that like this, where you're talking about individuals or about to come up on chargers of murder one uh and not not murder one for two individuals, two individuals, you know, I mean, which that's a lot, I think, so.
Absolutely. What we talked about, what you write about in the book too, is that you Nancy moves in on the premise that she's helping out her friend get over the grieving of her husband that died by natural causes of a heart attack. So she's reeving and moving in. But shortly after Jesse's death, her husband's death, Tim moves in as well. And in the description in the further interviews, we're hearing more and more. We will talk about Tim's.
Interview and what he has to say too.
But Carol starts talking about how as she's being pushed by the detectives on how this came to be. That was what made Tim so angry. And we also find out that the reason there was a lot of this trouble is because they went to California. She babysat for them because she owed Tim a couple of odds of dollars for drugs, so they thought this would be a
good way. And then while she was while they were away, she got they got a call from her and and while there's been a breaking enter and when they got back, there was one piece of evidence. In their mind, it proved that she was a thief. And it was shaped in a coke bottle. Tell us about this, it was quite important murder weapon.
Wow, oh boy, Well there was a piggy bank shaped like a coke bottle. Now, Nancy Billeger claimed that somebody had broken in and stolen some stuff. Well, and when Carol and Tin came back from the West Coast jaunt, they discovered. Carol discovered the piggy bank in Nancy's car and she's going, what the heck is this doing here? Well, later,
ron boy, it becomes a murder weapon. Carol will eventually use it to beat Nancy with which is linked forensically, which of course is you know, which I always find interesting, by the way, I can't you know. I love it when they can do that stuff. You know, it's like it's almost like watching a true crime TV show and it's real, you know, but you know what I'm saying, and and but but but this is oh man, uh yeah,
so that's a murder weapon. And what's very interesting about that, oh man, I'm going to reminded me, is that when the detectives are looking at what might have been used as a murder weapon, that is, Nancy was beaten face by et cetera, and the the the the the bank comes up the piggy bank. When Carol gives a confession to the cops regarding finding the piggy bank, okay, well, what happens is one of the detectives, I'm not I'm not sure one of the detectives, Messine. I think it's Messina.
What he does is he goes back and he looks at the crime scene photos because nobody saw that, nobody knows where this bank is. And you know what he finds. He finds it's it's it's in this bookcase. And they go to the house the murder scene. They get that, they get it, and they test it, and you know, next thing, you know, they've got themselves.
One of the murder weapons.
Now, it's very interesting. It was a really terrific piece of I think it was a terrific piece of detective work. You know what I mean. I mean, you know that doesn't happen very often in real life, you know.
Absolutely. Let's use this fred as an opportunity to stop for a second to talk about our sponsor, which is Best Fiends. America has fallen in love with Best Fiends, the five star rated mobile puzzle game. Discover the world, the best themes, and it's cute characters in this fiendishly fun, free to download mobile puzzle game. Immediately I noticed the vivid colors in the impressive visual style of Best Fiends
from the very very start of playing. It's a very cool story, but it's the challenge and the puzzle solving that's kept me interested. There's fourteen hundred levels, but you don't need to be a gamer to really enjoy playing this. I'm a novice, I'm always progressing and it's a lot of fun. Thousands of fun, challenging levels. That require you to use your brain. Anyone can play this game, from kids to older adults, but it's made for adults. Five star rated on the Apple App Store and Google Play.
Over ninety million downloads globally. Play offline anywhere, Perfect when you want to squeeze in another level on the go, or to play on a plane or in the subway. Don't miss out on all the must play game of the year. Solve thousands of fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Five star rated mobile game on the Apple App Store and Google Play. Download free on the Apple App Store or Google Play. That's Friends without the R Best Fiends.
Now we will last left off.
The police have Carol in custody. They have Tim in custody, and they're hearing a story of Tim's paranoia. Tim's homophobic rants that Nancy and Carol are lovers, and he just knows it, and he tries to arrange a threesome but it doesn't work out, and he is angry, and he looks like he's angry. He tells Carol about and of course he's leaving a story now that she was so frightened by this person, she had to do all of his bidding and all of his orders he had to obey.
But she talks about how he talks about killing seven people in his background, being associated with some gang in Detroit where he gets his drugs from, and offering to kill her father for the molestation. Yes, but then we hear about Jesse Giles. Now what do we hear about Jesse Giles and Nancy's involvement and Tim's involvement.
Well, this will eventually come at as the case proceeds toward trial. It's funny. It's just saying this. I was saying to myself, do I told us to Dan or not? But as I was reading the book again and I hadn't read it in a long time, Okay, I was reminded about how much I was influenced growing up by the by the novels of Raymond Chandler, who created Philip Marlowe, the archetypal Hollywood detective. He used to he used to say, uh, Chandler, when the plot lags, always have a man come through
the door with a gun. Well, you know, as I'm getting into this, you know, and I'm taking a look at at this whole thing. What's so interesting to me is that Collier keeps bragging about this quote unquote gang background, like you said, where he killed seven people. Okay, there's no evidence of this. I didn't find anything, you know, in the way of evidence about whatsoever. On the other hand,
Giles his girlfriend. When the time came to make a decision about killing two individuals and Jesse Giles her husband, she didn't hesitate. What she did was she spoke to Tim about it, and because she was already having an affair with him and what she was having problems with Jesse for whatever reason. And you know what, as we're talking about it, I'm thinking to myself, this is a
certain this is displacement. Psychologically, she really wanted to kill her father, Well, she decided to kill her husband, who essentially was the same person. How does she do it? Tim gives her some heroin, puts it into a syringe, because because Jesse is a diabetic, she gives him injections. So she gives him a hotshot, you know, and the next thing, you know, he dies. You know, Well, it's not so fast as that. She you know, he doesn't die immediately, but she winds up talking to Tim about
it on the phone and so forth. Tim will later say that he had nothing to do with any of this, which is a bunch of crap. But they talk about it, you know, and it's very clear that what you have here is two individuals conspiring to murder a third individual, which is exactly what happens.
You introduce a detective that's important to this case. Obviously, this detective healthon and so he is looking and he realizes too that he talks to everybody, talks to Jesse's sister who has the children. Her name is Matty Marian. He is single handedly getting to the truth with these two people, and with his investigation with other people that have information as well. They turn up a person of importance,
a name Up Church, his uncle, Tim's uncle. Tell us about Tim's uncle and what they get from him.
Well, Tim's uncle, Sim's uncle is over fled and actually it turns out it's a step uncle, but whatever, And what happens is sim Is hangs out there and he's and he hangs out there with Carol in the middle of trying to get disposed of Nancy Billeger's body. And what happens is Tim goes to a gas station at some point before he gets to his uncle's and he fills up a jug with you know, one of those ten get down gallon jugs with gasoline, and he's also
got some lighter fluid. What happens is when they when after they try to dispose of the Nancy's body by putting it into this park, pouring gasoline on her, and then and then a trail of twigs and and it was pretty stupid, a trail of twigs and dead leaves which they tried to light up with the lighter fluid
and so forth, which didn't work. What Tim does is he takes the lighter fluid after that and the the the other stuff and takes it over to his uncle's house, the lighter fluid in the gasolene, that what's left in the cannon. He leads it as uncles and eventually the police wind up talking to our church about it, and he tells him the whole you know, he doesn't have very much tell him, but he tells him that, you know, Tim had left the stuff there.
Yeah, absolutely, it's interesting too. There's a statement where they say that they have some information that he's involved with the murder, and he says, only the gas is evidence. I could just imagine him saying, you know, like not and again another sharp legal mind telling the police what evidence is you know?
So oh man, Yeah, I mean it's you know, just as we're talking, I'm really realizing something. What we're talking about here. This has nothing to do with you know, with race. You were talking about a criminal underclass in this country, and that's who these individuals were and are that's it. You know, it's a criminal because when as I'm reading the you know what I wrote, and I'm thinking, how do people do this stuff? Well, you're bad guys, you know. You know it's and again you take a
look at Carol Giles. This is a situation where you actually have in the input, you actually have background on how a murderer grew up. That's pretty rare, you know what I mean. And then that's why the cops were very very good and documenting everything. Damn, I mean, and this, you know this doesn't happen, you know in a lot of places. They were very very cooperative. And that again it's the years since cops had been that cooperative in a case with me.
Right now, you talk about to get proof of the heroine in the insulin by exooming Jesse's body. Yes, so they have that information. They've both incriminated themselves, so they're both guilty of murder. But Tim's story sounds a whole lot less believable and isn't consistent with forensic evidence, whereas
Carol's is. In this investigation and just at this trial again it looks like what possibly can be the motive because even the police figured this can't be all of the motive for the torture, that this Fancy Billet injured.
Oh yeah, well yes, yes, see what and that's very yeah what they really Oh yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. That's the real point of this, which is what the police, the prosecutor rather feels and makes clear to the jury, is that Nancy was again living with Giles and Collier for a while before she was murdered, and the police and the prosecutors make the argument that she overheard them talking about why Billet he had to die. I'm sorry,
not Billet, I'm a boy, I'm sorry. She overheard them talking about about Jesse, the fact that they had killed Jesse, and the point is that they felt they couldn't have any and timily said, you don't leave any witnesses I mean she said that over and over talking about him. So the point is that that she Nancy had to die because she'd overheard a conversation where they talked about killing Jesse Giles.
That was it.
Yeah, And that's exactly what they presented to the jury, and the jury agreed and convicted them.
Yeah.
You talk about that they had sort of a unique thing I haven't seen before where they have two trials, two juries, right, and making a decision at the same time the two separate juries. So too, in a sense, two separate trials Carol testify and later Tim testifying. Interesting too.
Of course, it's very dramatic in the courtroom. You say that Nancy's relatives walked out of the courtroom at some point just because of the horrific nature of the description of the wounds and her treatment overall some of the testimony. They couldn't handle it, could they.
Well, no, they couldn't. And I also have to tell you that in doing the research in the book and the interviews, at least one of Nancy's sisters accused me of making money off of her dead sister because I was writing a book about it, and that it's the first time it's ever happened to me, Dan, And I told her, I said, what's the difference between what I'm doing and what the Detroit Free Press and the local
media does. You know? It was really interesting, you know, but I knew, of course that the family was just of course totally traumatized by what just occurred. I mean, this is yeah, I mean, you know, and I again, this particular case really affected me. And one of the things I've realized is I read it again, is you know what, anytime, you know, I won't take on a case unless it affects me emotionally. It's got to get to me, you know, it's got to get to me.
And this did. And I think that's why, you know, I really got into it.
What I find out of this at the trial and peril statements that obviously every criminal, every killer, every perpetrator tries to put themselves in a little better light. But no matter how much he can put herself in a better light, it doesn't make her look good at all. It makes her look horrible. She talks about not really you know, not making a big deal of the theft in the burglary, and yet when her enraged boyfriend Tim
is saying do you believe this woman? And she knows she has a gun, He has a gun now, and he's been talking about doing something to her. And again so she writes, I think this and genuinely how much she wants to avoid this. But yet he asked her, what do you do believe her? And well, no, I don't believe her. I don't believe you, and then she
strikes her her friend. So almost everything, as much as Tim is a horrifying low life, you know, paranoid I want to be badass, would say as horrible and horrific as Carol's attitude. And it's like you write in part of this book, you say you've never worked the case where you had so much detailed information provided to you meeting, what they said, what they did, every every graphic detail is in here, and this woman provided it.
You know what I'll be I'll be very frank with you and with with the listeners. You know, I'm reading this and I'm going, gee, this would make a really good movie. But seriously, there's a lot of there's a lot of graphic detail. And again the reason for that is because the police officers Helton, Shanley and Messina, they were in straordinarily open and helpful, and you know I lucked out, you know, I just lucked out with that. I mean I realized that now and they were just
so helpful with this. And you know it's because I'll tell you. You know, as I'm reading today, I'm thinking, you know, she's got two kids, Carol Childs, and I'm thinking, she wonder what happened to those kids? You know, it's it's yeah, I don't know. I haven't looked it up, you know, but maybe I will, you know, because now they're adults.
It is also incredible the conversation did you have in here as well when she talks about injecting the heroine into her obese husband's body and he realizes, he says, what did you put in that insulin? So with another remarkable thing, and this is not the only story, but this is a really prime example of how sniveling these
people are. You know, they want to kill somebody, They're they're badass, but they got to sneak up and use all forms of deception that's within their grasp and then watch these people slowly die as a result of what they've done.
And Carol did it twice I'm sitting here and I'm not in vociferously. It is incredible. You know, these these are sniveling cowards, you know, they really are. They're awful people. I mean, you know again, it's like, okay, you know, you know, I'm sure you know you've talked to people who've been insisted. You know we've you know, we both talked to people. It's not an uncommon crime. Well that doesn't mean you become a double murderer, you know, and
especially bad go ahead, no, no, no, go ahead? What do I know?
I think it seems to be the again, it's these it's the nature of again, not an inanimate object, but the people believe that they're completely addicted to this drug and will do anything. You can see the effect of not grasping reality at any point for this woman, for this Carol woman, I mean, it just seemed to be an altered reality for her her life. And then when police came about, I mean, they use some charm to
be able to get her to talk. But it's not like other cases didn't seem to be certainly mentally ill per se. But it is incredible the effect of the drug and then the lacks of daisil sort of attitude about everything after that, it seems like it just bore a hole in this woman's soul.
Dan, you know, you're getting into something that I hadn't really thought about, and you just reminded me of something, okay about the use of that drug. Like I said earlier, you know, I said, well, you know, the most the worst I've ever done is is is it not worse? But you know, smoking weed? But I did one time in California. I did one time what do you call it?
Inhale cocaine? Okay, right? And I turned around to the person who gave it to me and I said, well, I don't feel anything different except I want to go downstairs and drive my car like Jim Rockford and the Rockford Files and turn it around real quick. And this guy said, Fred, You're not going to do it. That's
my point. It's like when you're you know that you know, you lose control, you lose control, and you take this crap, you know, and you know you can you can try to make an argument if you're a defense lawyer that the person's under the influence, but it ain't gonna work, you know. And they didn't do that in this case. Thank god.
Yeah, they've both incriminated each other, and everything they said just reinforced in forensic information and circumstantial evidence that they had against them. It was also very interesting and you leave it open because it really is unknown. It looked like there was evidence of sodomy. They checked for Tim's DNA there and didn't find that, so that was just another and you do righte that Carol says that Tim.
Of course again why not? Her boyfriend told her geez, I'm really curious about what it's like to have sex with a body, and of course Carol was not into that. So very very interesting. Everything I've said, you know, that's all based on the records, you know, you know what. It's just as you're saying this, it's pretty disgusting, isn't it absolutely? You know, you know really, I mean, you know this is you know, you know.
It's it's you know, it's it's really disgusting. And the fact, you know, and they don't know if he did or he didn't. And in a sense, it's time important because look, the guy's in jail, that's it. He's not getting out, never gonna happen. You know, I haven't even looked him up, but you know, I can look him up again, but it makes no difference. He's just gonna look a little bit older. Who cares, you know, you know there are
some people. You know, it's interesting as we're talking Dan, you know there are sometimes when when when you when I write about a bad guy, you know, a murder or whatever, you're sort of sympathetic. Is not the right turn, but you know, you sort of want, you know, you wonder a little about the person. Maybe you care a little about the person. The lack of you know a better term, not these people. These are awful human beings.
You know, these are awful human beings. And look, if this was a southern state when I'm having this conversation, it would have been executed a long time ago.
Yeah, you talk about the heroes in this if there is such a thing as but the characters that are strong, the detectives, Tom Helton, Mike Messina, Kevin CHANNELI. And but you also spoke to Susan Garrison, which is Nancy's sibling, and you said you spoke to her in this book and she was cooperative. Before I let you go, tell us a little bit about what might have been said between you two about this, you.
Know what, it's a while back, but she was very cooperative, and what she really did for me was it's really important, and she painted a picture of her sister as a human being, not as a victim. And you know, when you're writing about, you know, people who are murdered, it's very important to get that background. So she was extremely helpful that way. And that's why, as I said, I kept two pictures on my desk when I wrote the book, one of the Nancy. One of them was she was
going to be a nurse. She was going to study to be a nurse, and then I had another picture of her. It was very unusual situation for me. You know too. I just kept thinking about her and thinking about her and thinking about her because I just kept thinking, Man, something wrong here. You know, this didn't have to happen, but you know it is what it is.
You write in the book that the judge said to Tim and to Caroll, he addressed both of me. He said, you will spend the rest of your life in prison trying to remember what it's like to be a real human being. For a story about human beings. Yeah, it's really something, you.
Know, you know that's that's unusual at least I don't know, Dan, you would know better than I do, because you know, there's stuff better than me. But that's the first time I've ever heard judge that, you know, direct vocal to use any term you want. You know, I mean it hit home emotionally.
Yeah, No, it's it's it's a pretty dramatic, even for a judge too in in sentencing even the most heinous of criminals, to say something. But it sounds, you know, it is pretty profound. Really it is just criticizing them.
But it's it's too much beyond that.
I'm going thank you.
Sorry. Well, you talked about this book in two thousand and one.
This book came out, but this is a re release in twenty and fifteen with Open Road Media. Yes, this book. In two thousand and one, you said that it changed your perspective. You had a child around this time this story, and now you say it changed your attitude towards the
victims of crime. This is a perfect example where it would be hard to well not feel bad for Nancy, but also, like many people, they think, well, you shouldn't have done this, and you shouldn't have done that, and put yourself in harm's way, And how did your attitude change with being a father, Fred and your attitude towards victims.
Thank you for that question. The answer is I became a whole lot less judgemnical. I didn't look at you know, I just looked at things from a different perspective. And of course I also look you know, I have I have a daughter, and so any female victims. Immediately I think about the fathers and the mothers and so forth of the victims. And that's important because you know, and I can, I can you know, humanize these people, you know when you're writing, and and also you realize what
your limits are. I mean, I can tell you right now that there's there's no in the world. I you know, everybody talks about John Benny Ramsay, not me. I can't touch a case like that. It's just I can't deal with with children that are murdered. It's just it's just off the charts for me, you know. So that all changed when when I when I had a child. So and I think it made me a better writer, at least I hope it did.
I think so.
I think so.
Fred. I want to thank you Fred very much. For talking about needlework, battery, acid, heroin, and double murder. Fred, I know that you are in the process of about to get your book published. Tell us just briefly about this book, what it's about. Tell us a little bit about this your latest book project.
Thank you, Dan, I appreciate it. I'm work. I wrote a book that I've been wanted to write for forty years. Honestly, it's called Bat Masterson, The First Dreamer. Bat Masterson was an American frontier hero who was the sheriff of God City and later became the crusading reporter in Turn of the Century New York. Well, it turns out that two things. First, it was involved in seven major murder cases, one of which became known as the Trial of the Century in
the twentieth century. And most importantly, I suppose I had no idea Masterson was a dreamer from Canada. He immigrated to America and when he was eight years old with his parents. And so I just have to tell you that because of the fact that you know, I, you know, I've learned to try and not be political, okay when we're talking. You know, I did my research and what did I find. Guess what there's a whole bunch of presidents that have given a hard time to illegal immigrants
or supposed illegal immigrants. So there's nothing new about what's happening today. But that's why I felt that Masterson was the first Dreamer. That he lied every time that he was asked on the census where he came from, and he would say he would lie. You never said king
from Kenaday saying New York, Illinois. Whatever. The irony of this is that Dan is that right now there's a there's a legal case going on here in the United States where the this that they took that question off the census years ago where you're from, and now they want to put it back on, and there's a big
legal case regarding it. So anyway, I'm talking to a couple of publishers about Batmansters in The First Dreamer, and uh, you know, and I hope that it's going to get published, and I think it's going to be really good and and I believe me, Dan, I thought about you when I was writing about the murders.
Oh thanks, well, I said to myself, Dan's going to like this, absolutely, I'm looking forward to it. Sounds fascinating. So thanks Fred, for those that want to find out a little bit more, I guess you have a Facebook page, do you have a website?
Tell us a little bit.
More about how they might look at all their work.
Anybody, anybody want to find out anything about me, you can call the FBI CIA, and if you can't get through there, you can just go to Fredrosen dot com on my Facebook page or Open Road Media which is or Amazon of course they carry all my books.
Well, Fred, thank you very much once again for an incredible interview. Thank you very much for Needlework, Battery, Acid, Heroin and Double Murder. Thank you very much, Fred Rosen, you have a great evening.
Dan, thank you so much, and you are the best, sir audios.
Thank you, good night.