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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them.
Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening the moment he found out his brother was missing and presumed dead, Ted Kirgan launched a relentless effort to bring two suspected killers, a teenage prostitute and a much older drifter boyfriend, to justice and find Gary Kergan's body. Little did he know his quest would consume a fortune and take thirty years to reach its dramatic conclusion. Thwarted at first by the fact that his brother's body could not be located in a New district attorney reluctant to prosecute.
As a result, Kergan had to keep track of the killers from New Orleans notorious French Quarter, to Las Vegas and points in between, and wait for a break in the case that seemed like it would never come. Then, nearly thirty years later, science detective work and especially a brother's love and tenacity would combine for a resolution that would end in a dramatic trial in which one of
the killer's diary would be a star witness. The book they were featuring this evening is My Brother's Keeper, a thirty year quest to bring two killers to justice, with my special guest, journalist and author Chris us Soul Blackwood. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for greeing to this interview. Chris Russel Blackwood.
Thanks so much, Dan, I'm so happy to be all with you tonight.
Thank you very much again. Congratulations on an incredible book, My Brother's Keeper. Just before we jump right into this very very involved and incredible story, tell us how you came to be involved with this book and My Brother's Keeper.
Well, when the suspects were rearrested in twenty twelve. At that time, I was having lunch with a close friend who was actually on the inside of the investigation along with Ted Kurgan. She was actually working with him as a public relations executive. She started telling me little details about these rearrests, although she couldn't tell me a whole lot.
There was a lot of confidential information and I just became totally intrigued, and from that moment on, I was hooked, and I became her confidant and got more and more involved on the side of the story, and you know, it just consumed a good part of my life for the following years.
Absolutely understandable. Now you talk about the early life of Gary and his brother, Ted Kergan, and you start off with a story just to demonstrate the closeness of the brothers, but also something that happened to Ted early on. Anything, you talk about the role that Gary took on after that. So tell us just a little bit about the early life of Ted and Gary Kergan. Where they grew up. You talk about Detroit, So tell us a little bit about this incident and a little bit about their early life.
Introduced these two extraordinary people.
Sure, Ted and Gary grew up in suburban Detroit. Ted's father died when he was one year old, so Gary assumed the role of the family patriarch as a very young boy who was four years older than Ted. Their mother made her living as a seamstress, and they were so very close. Ted actually was injured in a bicycle accident when he was like eight years old, and Gary, you know stated his bedside. They had paper roots together. They always they did an attic bedroom project together. They
were always working together. They were uper close, with Gary being his protector, always looking out for Ted.
Now you fast forward a little bit and we'll come back to some of the accounts of some of the things that these people did together before they became really successful business people. But then you fast forward to this chain of Sonic drive ins and you tell about the brothers set to sign an agreement. So tell us where they are later in life and as business partners, and what kind of business they're in. Tell us a little bit about the situation that they that you talk about
that they were set to sign some agreements. Tell us what was going on at that time with these two brothers.
Kirgan moved to Louisiana to become a Sonic driving franchise e and Ted followed him. Here. They were on the verge of a huge Sonic expansion development agreement when Gary went missing. They had gotten verbal agreements from the banks. That day. Gary had gotten it for their loan to move forward, and Ted was at home waiting for Gary to come and discuss this with him. And there were It was a very exciting time in their lives. Everything
was seemed to be going their way. Uh, they were, you know, on the verge of like I said, opening restaurants in the New Orleans and Hammond area in South Louisiana, a big, big expansion for them. So it was a very exciting time. Gary was the sort of the charismatic leader of the two while Ted was more of the nuts and bolts person working in the business. They had a very very close relationship. As I mentioned before, They
spoke in their own little shorthand language. They spoke a dozen times a day, and so Ted was very excited as he waited for Gary to come home that evening and tell him about what was going on the latest with the bank development. And then Garry never showed up.
Yeah, you talk about Also Gary's wife, her name was Susie, and she was called or if she called, and she was concerned. So tell us what they do. Immediately they're in the Katia Parish. So tell us what Ted does and Susie does, and what's their next move.
Well, Gary had last been heard from. He was in Baton Rouge, which is about fifty miles from the Lafayette area. The Acadiana area. They had an office here in Baton Rouge of an apartment office that they were using his headquarters for the development expansions, and so they were expecting him to come home. Gary never ever, didn't come home without calling. So as soon as the morning came, she called Ted to see if Ted had heard from She
was very very upset. Of course, we're talking about November nineteen eighty four, so there were no cell phones there, there were no GPS, there was nothing, you know, no way to really get in touch. There was no answer
at the landline of the apartment. So basically Ted knows he has to get in his car and looks and the first place he goes is to visit the Acadia pair of sheriff who is a friend of theirs Ken Goss, who talks him into you know, tells him what he needs to do, that he needs to go to Baton Rouge. There's no missing person report for twenty four hours that could be filed. They do put an ap B out on Gary's Cadillac El Dorado, but that's about all they
can do. And then Ted gets in his car and drives to that Ruge to be in the thirch, having no idea where Gary might be.
Now immediately, especially on the verge as a reader, and I think as anyone, even Ted would think that there might be something to this, on the verge of this big business deal. He thinks back to these partners were that they had previously they split up the Sonic Restaurants in nineteen seventy nine, and the animosity lingered, you said, between Gary and Mitch Gravelly and the other two brothers,
and so you talk about that. He thought that there might be something to that, and as a result he had mentioned or he had remembered what Mitch Gravelly had said in terms of a nightclub that he had introduced him to. So tell us how this again information leads to another lead.
That's why many things where of course we're swirling through Ted's mind at the time, who Gary may have been with, who he talked to. He goes and searches all over bat Rouge, and he is he is desperate when he recalls a nightclub that one of their business partners, Mitch Graveley, brought him to, and it also brought Gary to on separate occasions. They have not been there together. So we're talking, you know, more than a day into this desperate search
all over bat Rouge and you know Ted. But before he goes to the club, he actually goes to a real estate closing that Gary was supposed to attend. Gary was moving his family as part of the business expansion, and this is a huge moment for Ted because he knows that no matter what, Gary is going to show
up at that closing if he's at all able. And so when Ted arrives for the closing and Gary never shows, it's at that moment that Ted breaks down because he knows that something is very, very wrong and that he is never going to see Gary again. So he's had this huge crossroads and he decides that he's not going to let his family become a victim. And that's when
he really gets goes into action. Things remembering the Gravelly brothers in places that they might have been, and he remembers this club called the Night Spot, which is the opposite direction from their home, but he knew that that they had both been there on separate occasions. So he drives here. It's late on Friday evening. Gary had been
missing since early Thursday morning. It's late on Friday evening when he enters this bar and one of the dancers greets them with Hello Gary, and he stunned because even though he's taller and heavier, surely there's a family resemblance. But you know, he knows that his brother is pretty well known there, obviously if dancers calling him by name. So he asks to see the manager and it's taken
to Dorothy McGee. She and her husband Gary McGee owned the club, and although Dorothy's pretty tight lipped, she does tell him that his brother was indeed there late Wednesday night, early Thursday morning, and bet he left with a dancer named Erica. So I mean Ted. As I said in the book, Ted is excited and frightened all at once because he's hit Peter, so to speak, when it was literally a needle in a haystack that he would have found a lead on where his brother had left been seen.
So he immediately the information to the detective.
With this dogged search he can he continued, He continues this investigation while you say that Baton Rouge police are finally on the job with a couple of detectives, Bob Hole and Ri Thompson. But like you say in the book, this is an incredible relationship that Ted has with these investigators because he has been an honorary deputy. Him and Gary, so they are pretty tight in terms of gaining information.
It seemed unusual or not typical that they would be so involved and they would have Ted so employed to be involved in this search as well.
Well. He immediately gained respect when he located the night spot because he found where Gary had last been seen, So the two deputies Hal and Thompson immediately had this respect for him. He also had the sheriff's badge, so he was an honorary sheriff and he did have a badge.
And thirdly, as the investigation was going on, he actually saw the mayor and in a very unusual exchange, the mayor asked him for a contribution to barbecue of campaign contribution, which Ted complied, and even though the barbecue had already taken place, Ted made's contribution and he but then on. He had a desk at the police station, so he did have unusual access. But this is Ted Krgan is a very unusual man, a very determined, perseverant man.
Hellent, Hello, I'm sorry we got disconnected there for a moment. I'm back. Tell us how Gary finds and the police find out about a person named Ron Dunnagaan Again it's from Ted's search of these nightclubs that he stumbles across upon this. But tell us how he gets this information and what information does he get about this Ron done again?
Well, first off, they they Ted found that he left with a dancer named Erica. Her real name was Lilah Mala Gary McGee. The club owner had a license with her name, so from that they were able to determine that she lived with a man named Ron Dunnagan on Byron Street, which was just a few blocks away from the club. So this was within another twenty four hours, so they were able to find out that address. Ted met the detectives there and as they waited for the
landlord to arrive. Again, he's not knowing if his brother is inside, if he's dead or alive, and so he is just he's kicking an air conditioning unit. He's frantic and they're waiting for the landlord to show up with keys.
When the landlord shows up, the detectives go in. First, they discover blood, They discover signs of a struggle in the duplex bedroom, and they know they know that there that you know there has been a serious struggle struggle there at the Duplex on Byron Street, just blocks away from the nightclub where Gary was last seen with this
dancer Erica aka Lila Molla, and so her boyfriend. From police reports from the club owners, her boyfriend's name was Ronald Dunagan, and they began to look for both of them. A material witness warrant is issued for Lilah because she was the last person seen with Gary Kergan at the same time. A couple of days later, Gary's carr late model Cadillac El Dorado was reported in a parking lot
in suburban New Orleans. The car had actually been there since Thursday morning, a few hours after the murder, but the owner of the business reported it several days later when no one came to claim it. The bat Police detectives traveled to New Orleans and brought the car back to the State Police lab in Baton Ridge, where the trunk was opened and there was a huge pool of coagulated blood, lots and lots of the blood in the
trunk of that car. And Ted Kurgan was also there when they opened the trunk of the car at the State police lab.
And he asked the question, I guess he's stunned, and he asked the question, what does all this blood mean? And what was the response from the police.
Yes, because when I spoke to Ted about it, you know, he talked about, you see that horrible site, but you really don't know what it means. You see it, but you don't see it. And the person at the state police lab told him that it meant someone had died in the trunk of the car, there was that much blood.
So after that horrible site, Ted had was charged with going back home to the lab the area to tell Gary's wife, Susie, their son Wade, who had just his mother in those assembled at Susie's house, that Gary was most likely dead and would not be you know, he would not They would not see Gary again. And at that time, you know, Ted's whole life had already been turned upside down. But then but now he's at this huge point in his life where he's no longer the follower,
He's now the family patriarch. And everyone had looked to Gary to make all the decisions and now he's put in that place. And it was, as he said, the worst day of his life.
You talk about that. Police believe that the couple are heading to San Diego. But police get a call from Las Vegas. Tell us what happens and how the what happens and how they apprehend the two of them.
Yes, they had forwarded their male to of San Diego. That's why they assumed they would find him there. However, because of the material witness warrant, when Lila Molla went to the Clark County Detention Center in Las Vegas to apply for a dancer's license, it was flagged. You know, there was flag that she was wanted in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. So they called the Batanoge detective and told them that
they could only hold her for twenty four hours. Meanwhile, they also discover a very minor warrant outstanding warrant for Ronald Dunnagan, and he stumbled into the Clark County Detention Center looking for her because he's been waiting in the car, and they hold him too. They arrest him. Now they, as I said, they can only hold them both for twenty four hours. So Batlou's detectives starts scrambling because they don't know how they're going to get to Las Vegas,
and so they basked Ted what he can do. And you know, Ted is thirty years old. He's a you know, he's a successful businessman, but certainly not not uber rich or anything. But he remembers, he remembers pulling out the Yellow Pages seeing an ad for lear Jet and actually calling the person who was in New Orleans and you know, talking to her and actually rinning the lear Jet on his American Express cards. That would bring both Ted Ted and the two detectives to Las Vegas to question Lylah
and Ron. So they do get there in time to question both of them in Las Vegas, and at that time, Lilah gives the first of several confessions.
Let's balco both. Let's talk about what she says in that confession, because this is going to be important and live and she's going to live with those statements forever.
Lilah said that she brought Gary back to the apartment. They were they were, you know, heavy. She says that they had sex and that Ron Done Again actually killed him and if they wanted more information, they would have to speak to Ron done Again. And that's basically what she said the first time that she confessed it was an accident, but that Ron killed him.
Now, what do police do with this first confession? And you talk about this first confession, She doesn't ask for a lawyer, so they speak to her as long as she feels like speaking with them. When they talked to Ron, done again, what is the result from that interview.
Well, he acknowledges that he knew Gary Kergan, and that Gary Kergan was indeed at their duplex on Byron Street early hours of that morning, and that according to Ron, he was looking for some kind of rupt sex and that Ron ran him off, and that the last time he saw Gary Kergan he was headed to New Orleans in his Cadillac. And that was one's story at that time in Las Vegas.
Now, is there any grounds for search warrants and tell us about what's found that with the warrant at the apartment.
Yes, they do search. Among the there were guns and ammunitions, but also some of the most valuable things they found were La Lamla's diaries. She had several diaries. Some were about health and fitness, but some were very pointed and talked about a lot of details. In the month they spent in Baton Rouge, the month of November nineteen eighty four, that they when they moved from New Orleans to Baton Rouge and what they did with their time there. It
was very, very interesting. They talked about practicing with animals, and Gary's name comes up in the diary several times. She talks about him as a trick. She talks about him giving her good money. She documents them her money in the diary. But the most chilling thing that she says in the diary is hit Gary next time. And she also refers to him in the diary as sonic Gary. It was a real treasure troven. Actually, those diaries were found in a drawer by Ted Kirgan, who was in
the apartment during the search in Las Vegas. Wow.
Along with the entries that seem to be incriminating and certainly very very interesting and not completely known what they can completely mean, they also are a portrait of this teenager, you say, obsessed with their looks and so some other things are in that diary too that point to her character, don't they.
Yes, And point to the fact that she was the dominant person in the couple, which was hard to believe because here she was she was nineteen years old Ron Dunnigan, her boyfriend was thirty six, yet she was the one her entry stay. Try not to be too bossy. They talk about the things that she wants to do. It it's very much. It's very obvious that she's in control. And although she would try to say at some point that she was a slave to Ron Dunnagan, she was able to go home to Ohio a couple of times.
So it seems pretty evident from reading the diary that she was the person in charge and the mastermind behind what went on and what happened to Gary Kirkany.
What they also find very interesting inside his chest is a clown costume and items that would be used in magic tricks. So what do they determine from this and a little bit of research.
Yes, well, Ronald done Again actually made his living when he lived in New Orleans in the early nineteen eighties and before that in Las Vegas as a costumed clown. He made balloon animals for children in the in Jackson Square in New Orleans. You know, he was a casino barker in Las Vegas, so and he did magic tricks. He was very proud of his career, so to speak to the clown. So yes, Ron Dunagan, you know, in another inside of his personality, he was he is a
paranoid schizophrenic and he worked as a costumes clown. So they made a very talk.
About a couple. Certainly you also talk about During questioning, Ron said something very I guess telling and also interesting. He said to police, how do you know he just didn't leave town or run off? You don't have a body, do you.
Yeah? That statement, that statement became a key in trying to get a better look inside of who Ron's done again.
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It was because it could be taken on several different levels. You don't have a body, do you is he Was he a smart criminal who realized he definitively disposed of that body and that no one would find it, or was he seriously just trying to find out did you find the body? So it was you know, as part of this discovery, especially after the cold case uh with back you know, back on with trying to find out
just who Ron Dunnigan was. And that statement was very chilling because at the time one didn't know did he know he disposed of the body well enough that it wouldn't be found or was he sincerely asking the question did you find the body?
Right now? You also talk about that the charger for first degree murder and along with Dunnigan, and then you go into what they find about Layla when she was born in opscale surroundings in kent, Ohio. Tell us how she made her way to New Orleans and a little bit about her life with the prominent doctor and housewife mother.
Yes, sure, Lila was the youngest of six children. Her father was a prominent obd yn in Ken, Ohio. She was a symphony violin, a track star, and a high school honor student. And then sometimes during her senior year she has substance abuse issues and her parents cart her off to an in house rehab facility and eventually she
goes to a halfway house in cleeveand Land. It's from the halfway house in Cleveland she escapes and makes her way down to New Orleans sometime in nineteen eighty three, and she lives briefly there with another man, and after he moves away from New Orleans, she literally ended up on the doorsteps of Ronald Dunnaghan and at that time he was, as I mentioned, worked as a clown, but also worked in a porn shop in the New Orleans
French Quarter. And then she turned to dancing and prostitution, and they that's what she was doing in the French Quarter at the time. But as I mentioned, she returned to Ken a couple of times to see family to attend the wedding. So it was obviously that she was moving around freely and not under his control. But she did have a carefully upbringing.
At this point too. She really she puts in her and she believes and she tells people that one day she will be family a model, an actress, or even a writer. And she really enjoyed the stage.
You say, yeah, she did. She is definitely has a narcissistic personality. In her diary, very interesting. She talks about wanting to be loved by men and women alike, and you know, her fantasies, as you say, of being a model and actress. She was using bat Rouge as a stepping stone to rob and murder and move on to California where she thought she would become a model and
actress a writer. So she had this narcissistic, magical way of thinking that was, you know, that propelled them to rob and murder to move on.
Now back to the police response and the first degree murder charges. We alluded to that there was a problem with not having a body. So tell us what Ted and what Ted does too, because we've got to start talking about what group, what plan Ted puts into play, and also the group that he assembles to help him.
So, I mean Ted spent much time looking. He in lists the help of wildlife and fisheries. There are planes, there are people in boats. He has one hundred thousand dollars reward out there for information he's hoping to He does everything. I mean, they look for the body up and down the expressway and byous it was an all out search along with the reward. They took calls for several months, but were never able to uncover Gary's body. So since there was no body, there was a change
in the guard of the District Attorney's office. A longtime district attorney who insisted he would prosecute the case was defeated. The new district attorney came in decided that there was Since there was nobody, he would not go forward with the prosecution, much to Ted's amazement because everything he had been told was that they would go forward with the prosecution because of the other evidence that they had. So
it was a huge blow to Ted. In March of nineteen eighty five when the DA's office decided to drop the case and they were released from East Batley's Pairs prison and with their separate ways.
What you talk about, too is a very interesting thing. We didn't mention that. In the search too, they find this mysterious map. I told us what the map portrays and what Ted and his group tried to do with that map.
The map was a very interesting piece of evidence. On one side it depicted a levee with trees and notations of trash, and in the middle it's a it's a notebook paper torn out with ragged edges. In the middle of the page there's a big bullbye and that's on one side. On the other side of the paper, there's a road. There are two levees and a road and a building. There's mention of a light gray Cadillac. There's
mention of a swerve sign. So it's a very detailed map, and many people have tried to interpret the map and try to figure out where in the Batlouge locale, or between Batloosh and New Orleans where the car was found, where this location might be. Ted finds a group called Texas Equisearch headed by Tim Miller. It's a group who searches, which searches for missing people, missing and deceased people. And Tim Miller, who's the CEO, lost his own daughter who
was murdered and so he began this nonprofit. Tim Miller actually came down. They used this map to thought it was because of the of similar buildings and the way the levies were drawn. And they actually conducted an all out dig for the body of Gary Kergan in April well and actually in March of the following well, this would have been after obviously, this would have been after the cold case was resurrection. But they actually did an all out dig for the body then, but that was
again like twenty thirteen I believe. And this, although the body was not uncovered, it led to a lot of attention for the case and happened right before laylah Malla was to be arraigned. So it was, it was. It was quite quite a spectacle, and it also led to Tim Miller befriending Ronald Dunnagan, one of the murderers. I tell another story, but yes, yes, the map was used later on as a as a place to look for Gary Cargan's body.
There was some very interesting things along the way. When Gary's wife Susie is called and somebody says, yeah, he knows where to find Gary's body. So tell us a little bit about this and what had happened. As you say, the one hundred thousand dollars reward that Ted had offered had been taken, had been withdrawn months before, so it was very interesting this person was asking for money. Tell us about what he said and what happened.
Yes, sins, he called Ted. This was for the summer. So a few months after the case had been had been dropped, and she was very upset because a man had called her and said that he knew a lot about the case. He knew where to find Gary's body. And so Ted called person who I'll call the confidential informant, and this person said he had been in daily contact with Lila Molla during the year after the murders. He was seeking that hundred thousand dollars reward money, which again
had been withdrawn. And so Ted consulted the police and they decided to set a trap for the informant so they would say, could record what he would tell Ted. And since the competential informant had gone directly to Ted instead of to the authorities, that recording whatever he had to say would force the informant to go on the record with his information. So Ted mets this informant at a hotel room in suburban New Orleans where next door
police detectives were watching and recording everything. The confidential informant tells Ted that Lilah told him that she poisoned Gary Kergan with tainted wine and that Ron then dismembered him and put the pieces in garbage bags and distributed them all around the area. And so Ted is just done because this is you know, this, this part about the
poisonous memberment is news to him. Then the confidential informant actually leads the detectives to a hotel across the street from where Gary Kergan's bar car was found, you know, a few days after the murder. As he led him to this hotel as one of the places where the dumpsters were located. And this is incredible since this person had never even been to New Orleans, so he was
indecredible he was. Afterwards, Ted found out that this informant had definitely spent almost every day for months with La lamballa so very credible person.
Also, Gary's car was found across the street from the Landmark hotel.
That's correct, and this idea, yeah, the dumpsters were. The dumpster where he led them to was at the Landmark Hotel, having never been there before in his life, so it was it was incredible. Yeah, definitely.
Now you talk about where, sorry, you talk about where Leela spent most of nineteen eighty five in Atlanta. What was she doing and how was she faring.
Well? A lot of it. Spent most of that year in a in a mental hospital there. She herself told me that she was not doing well, needed to to to regroup, and that was you know. She did spend most of the year there, then returned to ken Ohio and she resumed dancing and prostitution, but she would go on and marry, become a mother, and divorce. She obtained a nursing degree and worked as a nurse for years. So she went up after the year in the mental hospital.
She h.
Lived her life a lot of the same things that she had done before, with the dancing, of prostitution, the manipulation. There was a lot of that's been going on in her life, but she she went her own way and
lived a fairly normal life. She did a massive series of blogs during that time, proclaiming herself an event planner and happiness advocate, and Ted Kirgan was was following along with all this and he couldn't figure out for a long time, but then realized that the online presence that she was a mounting was mounting pushed down the mention of her name in connection with Arry Kergan's murder. There was a website called the Charlie Project, and it was
on that website. So all of these blogs and mentions were served to push that further and further down when people searched her name. Ronald Dune again in the meantime, stayed in North Louisiana and sometime in Las Vegas. He was pretty much in the same place. Returned to Bows your city and lived on disability. He sometimes lived in pay by the week hotel, sometimes with family. He even
lived in home with shelters. So this is the two what the two were doing and the ensuing twenty eight years after they were released from prison.
And you say they had no contact with each other whatsoever during.
That time, they did not. They did not speak to one another.
We are going to talk about Larry Tucker and his daughter Memory Tucker tell us just before we stop for a break, about Larry tucker relationship with Gary in the beginning, because you talk about you have a story where Larry sees a name on a card named Erica, and he says something to Gary early on, tell us about that, and tell us about the relationship Larry Tucker has with the Kurgans, and to tell us a little bit about Memory Tucker and what she is becoming and following in
her father's footsteps.
One of the first people that Ted called when Gary went missing was Larry Tucker. He was a business partner in their sonic agreement. He was also a very very good friend of Gary Kergan's and he was also officed out of their same apartment office in bat Riuge. And one night he came home, Larry came home to the apartment in that ridge and I'm the piece of paper with Erica's name and phone number on it. And he confronted Gary about it, and Gary said, thank you. You
probably saved me from going out of my wife. And you know, they had drinks that night and Larry Tucker went off to sleep. The next morning he realized that the paper was gone from the waste basket and that Gary had not spent the night here. So he's trying to put this puzzle together as Ted's calling him and saying, Gary he's missing. I don't know who he's where he's been,
I don't know what could have happened to him. And so this is going through Larry Tucker's mind after he talks to Ted, who is Erica, And as we later found out, Erica is one of Lilah Mala's stage names. And she lured Gary to that club that night because as Gary and I mean Ted and Larry had both spoken Gary, he said he was feeling sick and was going home. So they were both you know, surprised as they could be, that he didn't do that because he was thought he had the flu even and instead was
lured to the club. So Larry Tucker, as a close friend, was was heavily involved in for Gary along with Ted when he was first missing and in keeping up with, you know, all of the events of the case and
then as it was all going down. They lived in North the Tuckers lived in North, Mississippi, and his daughter Memory remembers her dad Larry pacing, pacing in the kitchen talking about the murder and the body, you know, where the body might be and and she watched this from the staircase and in the back of her mind this is what propelled her to a career in law enforcement, and she became a sheriff's deputy and later a victim's advocate uh for the the office because of hearing about
Gary Kirgan's murder all of her life. But she was very, very surprised call in twenty twelve, twenty eight years after Gary Kirgan was murdered, and a fellow detective asked her if she knew Larry Tucker, and she says, Larry Tucker's my dad. Yes, I know Larry Tucker. And that's when they told her that they were looking at cold cases to reopen Battery's Police had been given a grant to open a cold case division. They had a stack of
cases they were looking at. In this case, the one they called Sonic Gary, they were looking at and came upon all this information and the name Larry Tucker, and memory Tucker was stunned. She was a girl at the time, as I mentioned, she did not even know that Gary
was murdered in bat Luge. She thought perhaps he was murdered closer to where they lived in the Lafayette area, and she became immediately became involved in the case, trying to help put the pizzas together, so that that was the case they selected to reopen and go forward with.
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blue Apron dot com slash true Murder. That's Blue Apron dot com slash True Murder, Blue Apron a better way to cook. Now, we talked about Memory Tucker and Ted Kergan, Larry Tucker's daughter, and then she becomes an investigator, has an investigator role with the DA Assistant DA prem Burns.
So you talk about now this new initiative, this cold Case division, and you talk about Hillermore the third So tell us about this new initiative and how and what does Ted do in this effort now that he sees that there is a real chance of prosecuting these two for murder.
Well, as I mentioned, the Batter's Police was given a grant to open the cold case division. They began looking at cold case. Actually they selected Gary Kergan the case they called Sonic Gary his murder because they had blood evidence and Gary Kergan had a son, has a grown son, and they were able to match the DNA evidence, so they knew that the blood from the trunk of the car was Gary Kergan, and they knew that because of the amount of the blood, he was dead in the car.
So this DNA match was what got the case reopened, what made them choose the case and feel like they could one of the main things that made them go forward with it, So that DNA match was key, so they Ted Kirgan didn't actually get the call until a couple of months before they were going to rearrest the two Blilah Mala and Ron dun again because nobody wanted to get his host up, so until it was definite that they were going forward with the case, Head was
done to get the call. Even though he had kept up with the murderers. He knew where they were, he was still stunned. So there's a plan in place. John Dozier, who headed up the cold case division, made a plan to re arrest Lyla Mala and Ron Dunagan, or to question them, I should say, on the same day. In December of twenty twelve. Lylamla is now a nurse and
a story of Queen's view Bark. Ron dun again is still in Boser City, so Detective Dopier sends separate teams to question both of them because they have no whip knowing whether they've been in contact with each other or one could alert the other, et cetera, so they send two different teams to question them. They call Lelamala, who is at her job in the emergency room in the hospital, and they tell her that they're coming to our apartment
and they give her a chance to get there. What's crazy about this whole thing is that ched Kurgan also knows that they're going to arrest them, so he's there too. Unbeknownst to the police detectives, he is following them and as they are sitting laylah Mala in her apartment in Queens, Ched Kurgan, Memory Tucker and her dad Larry are in a car outside and they're watching and they're waiting. Lilah
confesses again at her apartment. She is immediately when she gets the call the detectives say there from bat News. Of course she knows that she knows what's going on, she knows why they're there. So after she has the brief confession to them at her apartment, they take her to the District Attorney's office in Queens, where she gives
a two and a half hour tape confessions. The profilers had met with these detectives before, and the Assistant DA Dana Cummings, who was there from Baton Rouge along with authorities from New York. They had Profilos had told them how to elicit that confession and it worked beautifully. She confessed both in her apartment and on tape from the
DA's office. Ron Dunagan was arrested was then questioned and arrested in Bosure City, but he basically gave no information but that same haunting line, he don't have a body to you so and they were both then returned to Baton Rouge in mid December and charged with second degree murder. Ted was actually on the plane with Li La Mola when she was brought back to bat Ruge. He was in de jognment not. Yes, Ted is a man of many disguises. Yes, he was not going to let her
out of his sight. He was actually there when they booked her and took her to Riker's Island. Before they brought her back to Batony. She watched her walk into Riker's Island. He was super determined and nothing was going to get by him. To stop. Amazing man.
You talk about Another part of this team is the assistant DA Dana Cummings, and she's a thirty year prosecutor so and she's renowned for her dealing with the serial killer Derek Todd. So tell us what Dana Cummings brought to this and her relationship with Ted and his group.
Well, Dana Cumming was fantastic during the all of the proceedings, but she met with Ted was very sympathetic to this story. Was determined to get this case, to prosecute the case, and to anyway they It was several. There were several things that had to happen for things to fall in place. Ted and Dana believed all along that Lilah was the mastermind behind the murder, and so they would need to either prosecute Lilah or have her testify against Ron done again.
So there were a lot of different grations that had to take place. She Lilah Mulla first pleaded not guilty so and would not accept the plea deal, so they were going to prosecute her. Dana, along with Ted, made an extraordinary decision to when Lylah refused the plea deal and fled not guilty. That was in April twenty thirteen. Ted and Dana agreed to let Ron go at that time treat her knit which means to take no action at that time with him, which meant that they could
later erect him. But they actually let him go and decided that to show Lilah that they would prosecute her. That was a very.
Yes interesting You also talk about that this in this new confession because it seems that everything she said had an evolution. So you say, Ted thinks back to that, you know that confidential informant and what he had said that Lilah had said, So what does Lila say? Now? Eerily interesting when Ted thinks.
Back about the about her poisoning.
Well, the poisoning. She now gives details to say about the poisoning, and then she elaborates that under questioning that she did know at first it was a story, but that she didn't know and then she did know. So you're talking or or during her well, no, just this confession, just this confession at this time that that Dana Cummings gets from her.
Oh yeah, yes, she tells the story that she that she poisoned Gary, that he struggled and fell to the ground, and that Ron mothered him and took him in the bathroom and dismembered him, and that she had nothing to do with it, got in adjacent room for hours and was a party to none of it. That Ron later took parts of the body in h sarbage bag and put them in the trunk of the car, and then she later he told her to get in the car. So this was you know, the basic tenets of that confession.
Now you talk about in this always Ted is looking for Gary's body, and Ted is looking for information in a way to find out the location of that body of his brother. You also talk about your friend and Edelman and tell us what again, to tell us what her role was in this group.
Well and Edelman is the public relations executive here in Baton Rouge, and she worked with Ted Kurgan on a number of projects through the years, and when the case was reopened, she volunteered to handle media, which she thought would be something that would last a few days. Instead, she ended up becoming inside an insider in the case. Heavily involved in the case. Ted brought her boxes and boxes of research that he had done through the years
from the first case and in the intervening years. She helped to catalog over nine hundred digitized documents that they used for different things, helped coordinate private investigators who talked to family members, and helped create timelines and possible scenarios. So she was heavily, heavily involved. But probably one of our most important roles was befriending Ronald Dunagan, which she did after he was as I mentioned, he was let goes as a preacher myt and was brought went back
home to North Louisiana. Tim Miller of Texas Equisearch, as I alluded to earlier, was here in bat Rouge for that dig looking for Gary Kergan, and he stayed on and also befriend had ron done again. And Tim Miller is an extraordinary man in his unright, very outspoken and a little bit rough, and he tried his best to get Ronald done again, to confess where he buried or left Gary Turgan's remains, and he worked really, really hard on it, so much so that they were saying they
were staying west Baton Rouge across the Mississippi River. And Ron took Tim Miller to a site where he and Lyle had shot guns, and that evening Ron attempted suicide in his hotel room. So and Ron is taken to the hospital where he's admitted to a mental ward. And Ann went in to visit him in the mental ward under the guise of bringing him a new cell phone from Tim Miller. And from that point on she becomes
his contact because he has no one. He's in the hospital by himself, and she actually befriends him, and uh is with him, travels with you, eat dinner with him here in Baton Ridge, travels even travels to Bosier City once he goes back to Bosier City a month or so later, a month or two later, and visits him there with Ted Kergan as her chauffeur, and so she has quite an extraordinary role in this whole thing because she is able to find out for Ronald Dune again
thinks about the time of the murder about you know, and pretty much everything that ron dunnage and told her was substantiated. That he that he liked Gary Kergan, that he was a nice person, and so it was just a real extraordinary insight into this person. He was not He was a a person who was not.
She was not.
Probably he was illiterate, but he was street smart and he had a lot of mocks the so anyway, it was extraordinary insight into the person who was blond down against so and played an extremely important role in finding out more about him.
This is not a slam dunk at all. This is planned for April twenty thirteen, and of course they plead not guilty. And you talk about an attorney holthaas not filing motions again delaying this and you say that Ted, you know, was looking at Leela, seeing what she looked at at forty years of age, and she hadn't aged so well. But there was an issue of an alleged warrantless Circe and seizure and if granted, it meant the
journals the diaries wouldn't be admissible. So what do they do as a result, What does Ted personally do and how do they deal with this grave situation?
Well, they were unable to find the original document in Las Vegas, but he, through a friend of a friend, gets in touch with a very powerful attorney in Las Vegas and they make it happen. They uncover the document, the original search mark document, so that they are able to admit those diaries and evidence. It was again, all through this period there are just incredible coincidences and force of will that make things proceed because, as you say,
it certainly wasn't a slam dog. There were many times when things could have gone awry. But yes, they were able to find the original document and thus the diaries were admitted into evidence.
Also, so there's another twist in this as well, is that September fourth, twenty fourteenth grand jury decides to indict them again. But then Leila has a change of changes her mind. Tell us what she changes her mind about and how this offers up a predicament for prosecutors.
Well, the morning of the grand jury, Ann Edelman and Ted Kurgan go to the courthouse and are met by
Dana Cummings lets them know that things are arrived. Apparently Lilah Malla follow Sala filed post conviction release papers against her counsel, and she had decided she was not going to testify against ron done again and things were kind of up in the air for several hours until finally Dana Cummings convinced her to testify by saying that she would charge Lylah with first degree murder and use those
diaries and her original confessions against her. But you know, again, it was you know, it was several hours of handwringing and worrying, wondering if indeed she would continue to agree to testify it, which she did, and then Ronald Dunagan was indicted by the grand jury that day and police went to arrest him the next day in Bosuer City, where an settlement and Ted Kurgan were also on hand to watch him be arrested at the Ramada end there in Bosua City.
Absolutely every step of the way, he wants to make sure that his work and his efforts have come to fruition, doesn't.
He no stone unturned with the phrase that was used over and over again.
Now you have all this cast of heroic people at this trial. Finally you have Detective Howl though he's interestingly suffering from cancer and in prison, but his partner Ari Thompson is one of the people at the and crucial people at the trial. On day three, you say the star witness here. Lilah enters the courtroom and they hadn't seen each other for thirty one years, and you talk about her being real small and her leg shackled fifty
years old. Tell us what Gary, as you describe in the book, what Ted felt and Gary's son is there? All these other people are there? What was this scene like as you described in the book, for Ted to lay eyes on Lilah and Ron Dunagan, Well, Ron.
Done again. I was sitting right behind Ron done again, and Lylah entered the courtroom almost right in front of him and had to walk past him. And as you said, she's very very tiny. When I spoke to her in prison, I had to do a double take. When she came out and I had seen her in the courtroom, She's very very tiny. She was dressed in the olive drab prison and had her leg as you mentioned had her legs shackled, and she was looked very frail. Her testimony
was very dramatic. She kept stopping and starting and tearing up and needing to, you know, catch her breath, and she was very she acted very very scared of Ronald Dunagan.
She acted very, very timid and just scared in general. Uh. And she the same basic tenets of the story she told in her last three to four confessions that they that she poisoned Kerry Kurgan with painted wine, that he fell to the floor, that Ronald Dunagan suffocated him, that Ronald Dunagan took him and dismembered him, put him in
garbage bag and then distributed those in various places. And she, you know, had knew nothing of where or how this happened, or where the bags were, or even though she was she said she was in the car with him as they drove to New Orleans that night.
Now you talk about that, the information that she provides in the direct examination and then in the more treacherous cross examination, she fares pretty well and stays fairly stable and answers the questions effectively. Ted was happy with her. Dana was Cummings was quite happy with her performance on the stand. Tell us what you talk about the the closing arguments and what the what that evidence provided for? So what does the DA do with that testimony? Again,
we talked about how effective she thought it was. Tell us more about what happens after that at the trial.
Well, several things that the fact that they had not only they had lawless testimony, but without law of testimony. They had the blood evidence, and then they had the diaries that determined premeditation. So all of those things together help to convict her. The jury took less than an hour to unanosy, I'm sorry to convict done again. The jury took less than an hour to unanimously convict lol done again.
And he was sentenced to life without parole, and she agreed to a thirty year sentence. So effectively, both of these killers would spend the rest of their life in prison. Correct.
Yeah, And we were very surprised that she took the thirty year plea deal. Chad Kirgan was very insistent along with Daya coming that plea deal be that long, that sentence be that long, and we, you know, very frankly wondered why she took such a long flee deal instead
of rolling the diet and going to trial. That perhaps there were other things either in the commission of that crime or maybe other crimes that she maybe didn't want to come out, but it was extraordinary that she did, except thirty years in prison.
Yes, in the diaries where I thought were more than effective, because the DA pointed to them to say, listen, when you get in there to deliberations, you're going to read these what her words are, and she quoted from those
hit Gary next time saw some really chilling passages. Now, it's interesting to me that you talk about it's not really a celebration, but the relief that Ted has in all this effort and his group's effort and everybody involved that wanted to see this outcome finally after thirty one years and and Lilah on the lamb and having a new life for so many years. But Ted doesn't stop there. So you talk about who he hires at Jennifer Jewan tell us what Ted is looking for now?
Well, even before the trial, as I mentioned, Lilah's testimony was fairly consistent, but it was it was probably there were probably a lot of falsehoods in there. His criminologists because of the the holes in the wall, which were very high up and in the ceiling, they determined that Gary was fighting for his life standing up, not on the floor being poisoned and falling to the floor. So the strug people that went on in the bedroom that
night was most likely not as she described. Instead, it was probably a vicious battle that Gary Kergan fought for his life, not just succumb to to poison y. So that was one of the things that the criminologists uncovered, that he was probably standing and fighting, not fron.
You also talk about that she debunked the idea of dismemberment and based on what.
Well several things the Crimethine photos even they had very they did clean up, but they have very little time to do so, and the photos of the bathroom are spotless. Not only that that there was very little evidence that it could have been done in the bathroom. It was the timing, the timing of you know, the murder happening two thirty three o'clock in the morning, the fact that they would dismember him and then get to New Orleans
and return to this duplex by seven am. It doesn't The experts agreed that there wouldn't be time for this to happen, that it would and that there would be an awful lot of blood and there was just not evidence of that much blood.
You also talk about that they concluded that when the story was that there was six bags, that Jewan concluded that there was no more than one garbage bag in that trunk.
Yeah, she was from the pattern she could tell from the She said that there would be the patterns that bags make when they drag over. She said that you would see that patterns from the different bags and there was no evidence that there was more than one bag.
About happened, right, And she also contemplated that An wondered that there was no fingerprints and or hair samples found, so were She contemplated where they were wearing gloves and hats and national said what about the she.
Was parying hats and that they were and that they probably wiped the car clean, because that was one of the things that Gary Kirkin's Cadillac had none of their hair or fingerprints samples, and that was that was one of the things that one reason why they were released is they couldn't hold them. But there was no none of that type of evidence at that time in nineteen eighty five.
She also talked about and questioned why they would use a map at all, what would they need a map for? And so there was some talk of them being possible serial killers. And you also talk about there was blood on the ceiling, but it wasn't Lilah's DNA going back to me, and also when you go back to the beginning, when they found at the Byron apartment, they found other people's identification, didn't they.
They actually found that in Las Vegas among their things there were social security cards and driver's license, yes, for other people. But the ceiling tile that was still held in evidence by Batanuru's police had that had the blood on it. The blood was tested not it was a female. So yes, there was blood on the ceiling in the Byron Street apartment that belonged to a Semile and which was not Lilah Molla. So very curious. Indeed, yes, what were there more victims? Again, she took a thirty year
plea deal, So was she hiding something? I don't know, but very curious.
Did Ted or anyone else from the group try to contact Lilah after that to gain any more information? Once she was incarcerated.
I spoke to Leilah a couple of times after she was incarcerated, and she is says she doesn't know where you know it maintains that she doesn't know where Gary Gary Kirkan's body is.
She did say that it was dumpsters as far as she can remember, and she did provide that she remembered it was a BFI dumpster.
Yes, you know her her stories about the dumpsters kind of varied, didn't She never really she never really was consistent and she really didn't give consistent information about the dumpsters. And she said she really didn't know, but she did mention b AFI. She mentioned a color. I think it was purple. They were purple, But it was not very consistent her reports of the.
Dum You talk about Ron Dunnogan's behavior when e Lilah is testifying against him after thirty one years and not seeing her, that must have been interesting to observe.
Yes, well, Chruse. He was violently shaking his head and you know, foot tapping, and he was very much in disagreement with what she was saying. However, there's some thought that maybe he was happy to see her again. He had seen her in thirty years, and she was the great love of his life. So even under those circumstances, perhaps he was happy to see her. Wow.
In Lilah's testimony, it seemed that people believed it seemed that she'd got credit for being remorseful and actually sorry about this, that this event ever happened. What did you think of her testimony in regards to that remorsefulness.
I thought her whole performance as I said in the book, and won an Academy award. I'm not sure how much truth there was to it. I'm not sure that she at all. So I'm not really sure. I think she said what she needed to say and what she was you know, she knew she needed to say. I'm not I don't believe she was remorseful.
Now, you talk about the relationship that Ted maintained with his nephew Wade, and Wade was at the trial as well and was approached by journalists, and you spoke to Wade, I believe, So tell us a little bit about what it seemed to be the effect after all these years and how he was faring from it all.
Oh, Wade, is it very wyant thoughtful man? He obviously has a great deal of love and respect for his uncle Ted. He was so very emotional after the verdict, and you know, it's been a real uh. I think it's been really really transformative for him, the whole the verdict and being able to put this behind him. He is he is a very very thoughtful man and and again gave so much credit to Ted and they're very very close.
That's great. You also talk about a few days after this trial verdict just too again a little bit of icing on the cake of for Ted a little bit anyway, something he was honored with the Hall of Fame involving the Sonic franchises. So tell us a little bit about this, and it seemed like the photo you provided, it was an important day for him.
Absolutely, it was amazing timing the trial should have been in the summer. It was postponed until September twenty fifteen, and as it turned out, Ted left the trial and traveled to Kansas City where he did receive the Troy Smith Lifetime Achievement Award at the Sonic National Convention. So it was you know, he was asked many times if the verdict, the trial, that all of these proceedings were surreal,
and he said, no, they were very real. But indeed, when after his speech at the Sonic Convention, he walked off the stage and was high five by members of the band earth Wind and Byer, who were the evening's entertainment, and Ted said, that was the real. So it was really, as you say, a real you know, almost in Ted's business is still called Kirgan Brothers, so you know, all along it was as if Gary was continuing to play a role. And I'm sure at the convention Ted very much Gary within there too.
Yeah, in the end of the book too, you talk about all the people that were instrumental. Usually there's an acknowledgment, but not often so much acknowledgment of the players that you just wrote about. So maybe you can tell us about all the people, including Ted and Memory Tucker, that were instrumental in this, in your opinion, in getting this again an incredible journey and mission to have these killers face justice.
Well, certainly beginning with Ted, an Edelman said, a just a really crucial role in working through all of these timelines and developing, you know, the case. Memory Tucker, for as her role in working with the assistant with the Assistant District Attorney's office and the Batons' police and getting
the help and get it the cold case reopened. As I mentioned John Desby who made the decision to reopen the case as the head of Baton rig Cold Case Division, And there were other detectives Chuck Smith and Jim Steele, investigators with the DA's office. They worked closely with Ted. In fact, Chuck said that he had never seen anyone like Ted who gathered in information, processed it, processed it and acted with almost military like decision. But Chuck and
Jim were very important. Hillar Moore, who was the District Attorney, was the original crime scene investigator at Byron Street in nineteen eighty four, so he had a definite invested in this case and that was an incredible coincidence. There were private investigators Scott Johnson, George Steinmel who spent a lot of time talking to family and friends and people who knew both Leilah Mala and Ron Donnegan during the intervening years.
His wife, Ann Kirgan was an extraordinary person. Ted was able to keep his keep Anne and his son out of the loop on everything that was going on, so that their home life and their house was a safe haven at all times and as an incredibly strong and supportive person. And I really enjoyed getting to know her. Uh Kirkin Brothers executives Doris Reiners and Janet Johnson, both of whom worked with Gary Kergan thirty plus years ago.
They were there every step of the way. I was able to talk to them and gain terrific insight into what it was like thirty years ago and throughout their time with the organization, So that was was really was really great. And also meeting Tim Miller of Texas ec Research just just an incredible man. There were other people
who Ted enlisted to help look for his brother. There were Mike Castle and Julie Starbuck of Peace River Canine, as you mentioned Jennifer June, and there was even the property owner in Iberville Parrish who was like a color commentator of history about the area, was Don Risdraff. So I mean, there were just so many people who once they heard Ted of the story of the murder in Ted's remarkable journey, they just became a nest with the whole thing. So it was just an incredible experience.
And I also want to say this is an incredible book and the publisher is Wild Blue Press, and I have a lot of authors from Wild Blue Press. It's a great publishing house. And also I wanted to mention that I was interested to see that the book is edited by Anthony Flacco.
Very very interesting. Anthony was very very helpful, made some extraordinary auditions and helped you with the editing. I really really enjoyed working with him. He was a great, great editor.
Absolutely is a great author, a great author, and it was a great guest. We have to let you go, but before we do, maybe we can you can talk a little bit about the newsletter that you have, and if you have a Facebook page for this book or where people might look for other work or be able to contact you, tell us a little bit about that.
Sure, I have a website MBK as in my Brother's Keeper mbkbooks dot com and you can find out to have a blog there, lots of photos and a whole lot of information on that page. You can contact me through that as well, and of course the books available through the web page, but also on Amazon, and that I do have my Brother's Keeper book faith page. Love for you to friend me there, and I keep putting out more information. Ted continues to search in and hopefully
one day there may be a further resolution forensics. Today, forensics are amazing, so we'll continue to follow the story.
Wow. Yes, there's probably more to this story, obviously. I want to thank you very much Chris Russell Blackwood for coming on to talk about my brother's keeper, a thirty year quest to bring two killers to justice. It's been fantastic. Thank you very much. You have a great evening. Thank you.
I enjoyed it. Dan, thank you.
Good night, good night,