MURDER OF A MAFIA DAUGHTER-Cathy Scott

and really did. She ultimately dedicated her life to learning about Vegas and its underworld bosses, publishing two books on the subject, Easy Street and Lady Las Vegas. Her story takes a turn for the bazaar in nineteen eighty two when Kathy Durst, the wife of college friend and heir to a New York real estate fortune Robert Durst, mysteriously disappeared. Robert Durst was the prime sussect primary suspect, but no

charges were laid. Shortly after the Kathy Durst case was reopened, Susie Berman, Susan Berman was found shot in the back of the head, mob execution style, no forced entry, no robbery, nothing missing. Again, Robert is a suspect. Did Susan know her killer? Did she have knowledge about Kathy Durst's death? Murder of a Mafia Daughter The Life and Tragic Death of Susan Berman by my special guest Kathy Scott. I

do not have Kathy Scott on the air. Maybe she's just late getting to the phone to be able to call in for the program. I do have, I guess, I guess a couple announcements to make as well while we wait for her to contact the program. The book we're discussing tonight is Murder of a Mafia Daughter, The Life and Tragic Death of Susan Berman by Kathy Scott.

It is really the story that you have seen in Casino and more so in the movie Bugsy starring Warren Beatty, where there is a primarily involves the arrangement between Meyer, Lansky, Davey Berman and Bugsy Siegel and basically the founders of Las Vegas as the story goes, members of the Jewish mafia, Meyer Lansky being the moneyman, and Bugsy Siegell as you see in the movie, very flamboyant and outgoing person that wanted to believed in the Las Vegas idea that the

mob could go and sort of clean up their act in Las Vegas, make it for everyone to make a ton of cash. And so a lot of people are fairly familiar with the story from the Bugsy Seagull movie starring Warren Beatty and from Casino starring Robert de Niro and a cast of many many reputable mob type actors or actors playing mob members. While we wait to get Kathy Scott on the line. And this is the second

time she has been on the program. The first time was very early on in near the inception of the program, and her book was The Rough Guy to True Crime, a compilation of basically the most interesting notorious infamous criminals involved in true crime, primarily killers, but also she featured

some infamous robbery and thieves in her book and mafia members. Anyway, what I'm going to tell you about next week is that hold onto your seats because especially for our American audience that's not as familiar with this story, and in fact, I shouldn't even say that no one is familiar with this story. Basically people have just gotten snippets from the Canadian press. This is another really, really high profile case. Robert Willie Picton accused of forty nine murders, actually charged

with twenty six. Particularly grizzly and bizarre and gruesome tale of a serial killer who fed the remains of his victims to the pigs that were on his farm. There has been a publication ban for a few years till the appeal was finally concluded. Earlier this year. A very reputable journalist and author has decided to do books. Do two books about the pict In case. The first one was called The Picton Files and this one is called On the Farm Robert William Pickton and the Tragic Story

of Vancouver's Missing Women. This is Stevie Cameron. She's known for writing a book about Canada's Prime minister called On the Take, exposing the German I guess arms dealer salesman his name is Schreiber, and the relationship between Canada's Prime Minister Brian mulroney and her book was called on the take, so an investigative journalists not afraid to get her get her fingers dirty. I guess looking into into stories, I'm

not worried about ruffling any feathers. And she has decided to write this book on the Farm in seven hundred and fifty pages, comes out in hardcover by NONF. Kopff and incredible book.

hands of Robert Picton. It is again, or at least another story of police ineptitude at a very very high level, ignoring one of their own and chastising them and actually demoting them because one of their own had suggested that it was a serial killer at work in the Vancouver area in British Columbia, Canada, and no.

There's a publication ban, but also there's great outcry in Canada over graphic detail the Bernardo Homalka case or any type of case where there's graphic testimony, evidence, ruesome details. Canadians, unlike Americans, don't want to know. We live somewhat sheltered life. And I think I've said it before, Canadians, as Canadians,

we believe that we're very much different than Americans. We believe honestly that Americans much more violent than we are as Canadians from what we see, and your higher murder

rates are just I guess part of that evidence for them. However, when we do see the kind of shock and shocking and gruesome and bizarre and horrific crimes like we're used to hearing somewhat routinely in America, in the bigger cities and sometimes not in bigger cities, that Canadians, I then believe, are in denial that we are very very similar to Americans.

And if we were to have the kind of social situations or social problems that America has and combined with access to handguns and at Canada, very much like the United States has, experiences a lot of murder and violence as a result of current drug laws. You call it pro yes, but the current drug laws. And I won't get into any kind of debate regarding that, but the fact of the matter is there's a lot of gang related and organized crime related murders, not constantly, but certain

to a certain degree. Anyway, Thank god, we've got Kathy Scott on the line, so I'm going to put it right on and we'll get going with this program. Thanks very much for being comfortable with this and Kathy, are you on the line.

and and they just couldn't seem you know. I followed the case, and they couldn't seem to find the killer, and so I gravitate towards that sort of thing to try to you know. I don't know if I can say try to help, but you know, try to get to the bottom of it and kind of investigate up myself. And I just think it's a sad case. I think it's sad that that whoever killed her has not been brought to justice. You know. It's I feel like I

know Susan. I came close to meeting her, but I never did, and I think whose story needed to be told.

right forty I think the same. I think Susan was six months old when she moved here, so it was long before he'd met her mother and his brother chickie, you know, who stayed by his side, you know, his

whole life. He joined up too, and he he ended up being I don't have the book in front of me, but he ended up being decorated, you know with what he did and did actually actually an exemplary job, and he wanted to fight and be part of them, you know, help and he and so the Canadians welcomed him with open armed right.

Was he a hard drinking, womanizing guy? Gambler tell us about who Davy Berman was. It's because it seems to be very interesting aspect of the contrast Davey Berman the gangster and.

in in people to help run it. And Davy was brought in from was he in Minnesota at that time? I think he was brought in to run the Flamingo hotel and here they I mean, he went to synagogue every Saturday. Like he told Susan, you know, you go buy the synagogue and tell her, you know, I built that for you. He did it, of course, because I verify that people in their eighties who said nope, the boys down the street may have donated some money and he may have done one of them, but he didn't

build it. But he was just here in Las Vegas. They'd almost come here to legitimize himself because they'd become philanthropists, and you know, I mean they named them pillars of the community. And there was an understanding that they could come here and do business, but they couldn't kill within the borders. You want to do anything like that, you go outside the border of Nevada and across the state

line and it's fine. So they they actually legitimized themselves here and they were allowed to do the rackets, and everybody knew they were skimming, you know, for the mob, and that's what he did. But he was a nice man. He was you know, Susan was in love with her father. You know, she was a daddy's girl, and he was a nice man. His father, Shaky, was a little loud of hand and not a leader. But Davy was a leader, but very quiet and kept he kept at low profile.

know that. You know, her mother had a couple of nervorous breakdowns because of the pressure. And you know, they when they built their house, they had a cute little English tutor on downtown on Seventh Avenue. I believe it was six or seventh and Q and now it's a little teeny tiny law office. But the back window and you can go by it and see it on the alley. The back window was really really high in her bedroom and they raised it so they're couldn't be a drive

by shooting. And so Gladys knew what he did. And when there'd be mob uprising, he would send them to La or he'd go with them and they'd go hang out and see at the bel Air or the Beverly Hills Hotel and shop and that sort of thing, and take her to Sometimes they go to New York, but most part they just go to Los Angeles to get away, and then when things would settle down, they'd come back into town. So Gladys didn't take it well and she went away when she left when Susan was still in

grade school. Soon they put her in what they i know, assisted living whatever it was back then, you know, arrest home too, and she had shock treatments and all of that. So her mother it was it was a sad existence for a mother. So she wasn't the typical you know, mob wise who enjoyed going to parties and stuff like that. It wasn't like that, right, and they kept a low profile. I had meetings at the house, you know, all the big guys, and there was a bodyguard who basically lived

with them and took Susan everywhere. I would go to La with them.

It was almost like a guy's you know it's it was. They were just regular Joe and they were accepted and never questioned, and you ask anybody. I did a story a while back for I think it was Israeli Light or something. It was a few years ago, and interviewed a lot of children who went to school during that time and they felt safe, and a couple of them said, you know, nothing ever happened when we had the mob

run in the town. It was a safer place and people didn't lock their doors and they you know, they didn't give anybody in town any trouble. You know, they did whatever they did, but you know, nobody talked about it. Didn't make the papers much.

about in the movie. I don't you know, you did the research, so I don't know how accurate it every every aspect of it is, but talk to us.

was considered the fling. Flamingo was considered way south on this strip, you know, as far as south as you go, and it was just nothing but desert all around them, and he had all these lofty ideas and it he bought it from a guy named Is Wilkins. He bought

the Flamingo from a guy who went belly up. He tried to tried to build a hotel and couldn't couldn't finish building it, couldn't get it off the ground, couldn't get enough backers, and so Busy talked the mob into buying it, and you know they bankrolled and then he

would run it. And you know Bugsy was, you know, kicking off a few people on the mob and you know whatever, for whatever reason, you know, they they offed him and waiting in the casino at that moment, and they got a phone call it's done or it's over or whatever, and that from the moment he was shot and they got worried. They instantly hadn't even made the news yet, of course back then wasn't in the papers

for another day. And they they the moment he was dead, they took over the Flamingo and that's why and Davy started. He was the head, He was the head guy, and it was all the skim and then you know, it was the you know, the Jewish model out the Italians in, you know, so it's uh and it all sort of

you know, intertwined itself. But you know, whether that was by design or not, you know, to bring him in for better appearances and not being Italian or something, I don't know, but it seemed to work very well back then. That's that's how he took over. And he was the anointed one when dougsy died, to be the one who ran the place right now.

there it was questioned. It came up and the old newspaper articles when he died. I told all the stories when you know, the Review Journal and the Las Vegas Son and a couple of I think there was another one, uh Lats Vegas Independent or something like that shaying that some questioned it, but that there was nothing to it that he you know, he died in surgery. I don't know that he had, you know, if there was any

motive to kill him, you know. But then they Susan's mother when he died, was in you know, in a sisted living place in La So they moved they moved Susan from Las Vegas to La to be near her mother, but she lived in a separate apartment away from her, I believe, and the bodyguard went with her. And then her mother died the next year. Am I jumping? Am I jumping too soon?

Emotional only she was she was firmly planted in Las Vegas, and she remembers things as a little girl, and you know, not all of them, you know, panned out. She wrote a beautiful book about it, Easy Street. But her her mother died, and she supposedly died, I mean, I think

she died of a broken heart. But she supposedly died of an overdose or you know, she was she was young, you know, her mother was young, but but uh wasn't really she kind of checked out her motherhood, you know, and her father was raising her and then the bodyguard of course, lou who she loved, and and then you know, as soon as as soon as she died because Susan said she was killed. Her mother was killed because of the money. But they still had to pay Susan. I mean,

Susan got a lot of money over the years. You know, she had trust fun with turned twenty one, you know, and Chickie actually lived off part of it. Her uncle, well, she went, he whisked her away to Oregon, then put her in Chadwick you know, private school and where she went to school with wife and Manelian people like that. And and he was taking the money. And then when she turned, you know, he put her in college and she went to use c l A and and uh, he was living off with that money. So she got

a lot of money over the years. So that motivation of money to kill the mother doesn't make sense, because you know, he owned he owned part of the riviera, part of the Flamingo, Uh, some apartment buildings and things like that, and so the proceeds Susan lived, you know, had for years. So that doesn't make sense because it wasn't like they didn't pay anybody that why you know, they paid her, they paid the mother. It didn't make

any difference. But there was never evidence. You know, nobody ever investigated is homicide.

she was it was interesting. I interviewed a couple of people who attended school with her, and one who went on to work at the Los Angeles Times, and and she couldn't be She was bored with school and she didn't try hard, and things seemed to become easy to her. And the dean told me that she never He liked her, and he and his wife are really good friends with her and stayed friends with her, you know, up until her death.

you know, she didn't want to work hard. And while she was in San Francisco, she herb is that herb can herb con she ae n Yeah, he's a big column this stand. She used to hang out at this grille and she was in his column all the time. So she kind of became a big, big deal. You know, Susan's best years were San Francisco, and you know, after that, of course she went to New York. Her best years were there. When she went to LA everything went downhill for a very long time.

He was there, threw herself into her father's coffin during the funeral. She was always very dramatic and never got over it. But he said that his parents while he could play it her house. He was allowed to play at her house or take the limo down to parties and stuff. He was one of her few friends in school her parents. His parents would not allow her into their home. She's rather interesting. They let him go there, but they want to let her, you know what I mean. Interesting.

But anyway, she she went met this guy at a bar that they had a you know, a planned meeting, and he wanted to tell her something. And she went there and he pulled out a mugshot or something or wanted I think it was a wanted poster that she actually hung on her wall. Sorry, I'm gonna I'm in a coffee lounge actually outside, Sorry about that, he uh. And he told her, you know, this is who your father was. And he opened up a book and in it he found a page and it said who Chicky was,

and it said who her father was. And so then she she didn't believe him. So then she went to a bookstore and looked up every book she could find, and she went to the library and found every reference and then she found that her dad, but there wasn't that much written about him, but she confirmed. So she did a freedom of Information Act, pulled the foy as we call it, you paper the f by FBI, and he said, and she sent in paperwork, and she got her father's file and it was you know, several boxes

and went through it. And from that, you know, she never planned to, you know, write a non fiction book. She'd you know, she'd been writing. She'd started some you know fiction, you know, novels, which she did well with those.

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his wife Elane. They helped her on the A and E special she was on later, she helped produce that, helped write it, and also in her later you know Lady Las Vegas. She had you know, entree into and to that whole whole group of people that other people can't penetrate, and so actually it helped her and they didn't care because she didn't know anything and nothing new was happening. But she was on a Jane Pauley interviewed her. I think she was on CBS or something, and she

she had a full on book tour. And you know, nobody owns the rights to that book right now. A few people are trying to get it, but dial Press, I think nobody knows who owns it. So the book is out of print and hasband for a long time. A lot of people have tried to grab it up

and can't. But yeah, it's But the interesting thing on that is she had a book, she had a movie deal come through, and Susan collected people, and she collected people who could be useful to her in her career, people in the music industry, publishing industry, and she knew a guy at a record company, and so he kind of acted as as a quasi agent and she was paid, Oh I don't remember. It was one hundred and eighty seventh found and or something is and it's as a

movie option, you know. And then she was so difficult to work with that they killed the.

she was kidnapped. I could find no you know, court records or criminal records on it. She said she was kidnapped out front of you she was at Fifth Avenue High. Fifth Avenue School is where she attended school, which was just two blocks from her house, two short blocks. And some man opened the door and grabbed her and tore her in the back seat, and there were a bunch

of comic books on the back seat with her. And as he started to drive, I guess he drove away and stopped at the stoplight, and she kicked in the door and she's eight years old and got out. And I mean, that's her side of the story. We don't know, but things like that she has in it, and it's just interesting about her mom and her dad and she, you know, she kind of downplays the in some respects.

She downplays the role of her father because she knew that he was you know, he was he at one point had been a hit man apparently, but she downplays that sort of thing about him. It's kind of it's very rose colored glasses, but a good read and you learn a lot. If anybody wants to get you can buy it off. You can buy it used doctor Amazon. It's expensive, but you can buy it.

because it was in a book that he was. He was, but it wasn't a hardened He didn't have that hardened look or you know, he didn't have if you didn't know, if you saw him on the street, you wanted to have thought that he didn't have, you know, the Vegas look, you know, the ft back here and kind of I mean, it's just sort of the thug look. He in, the type of suits and stuff. It was quite a sharp dresser too, apparently, but he didn't have that and he

didn't He wasn't a tough guy. And people who worked for him loved him. I interviewed Bill Miller, who was a couple of years uh, I think he was a couple of years younger than Uh. Then Susan and he became actually governor and his father went to prison for I forget what, but he was kind of hooked up with the mob a little bit. And and uh it was Bob Miller. And Bob Miller was a lifeguard, you know, at the at the Flamingo, and he would always be invited to Susan's party. They'd always be kids of the

workers who were invited to her parties. Kid she didn't know very well. And he and he said, you know, everybody loved Davy that that he was. He was a gentleman and treated treated employees with respect. So he didn't you know, he didn't pushing weight around or anything like that. He was like a gentle gentleman monster.

keep them as friends. It was interesting kind of what she definitely had an effect on her growing up in that environment as really a mob princess because she was spoiled, you know, spoiled spoiled girl. Yes, and then the rest of her life she felt entitled.

than her. I think that they He only attended UCLA for a year and he was there for a graduate degree which she didn't finish, and Susan was there for her undergraduate and they met in the quad, you know, outdoors and you know the city in areas where the kids, you know, the students, and they met out there and their their their common interests were that their mothers had died. He actually witnessed his mother committing suicide by jumping off the family roof and he was on the ground when

she landed. And every yeah and every you know, profiles have been done on him and said that that affected him. So right then they had she was she was you know, her mother died as well and when she was young, and so they had that that commonality and just sort of intellectually he was, you know, he came from a really you know, the Dursk Corporation and and the huge real estate owners and developers in Manhattan, and which came in handy for durs later when his wife is missing,

and but never romantic. She wasn't interested in him, and vice versa, but they they were they see each other, and then she basically followed them to New York because that's where he lived. So she after working at the Examiner, she freelanced at City Lights. Wrote a wrote ah in an article how to get laid in San Francisco, and back then it was a big deal and that kind of made her famous, and she she used that to get into New York and get with New York Magazine

hired her. So she and then she saw Bobby a lot. They'd go to Elaine's and a whole group of people would go and Larraine Newman from Saturday Night Live was one of their friends, and they just had the whole following of people.

so unusual. But tell us about uh, tell us a little bit about that, and and tell us because you don't talk too much about it, but about the behavior of Bobby Durst at that time. Was he a real eccentric guy, because later his behavior is quite different.

Bobby's friend. First, that Bobby was controlling over her about you know, where she'd go and who she talked to and that sort of thing. It was never that way with Susan. But then Bobby's you know, they had a fight and Bobby's wife ends up missing and and someone called the medical school to say that she wouldn't to

be attending. It was a woman. And everybody believes, and I believe it too, that Susan was his alibi and and was the because she you know, she I forget what the alibi was that she she confirmed something and then was the one they believe who called in seeing that the wife wanted to be attending school. So it's uh, and that's a deep, deep secret to hold for someone, you know, if you and she filled the media request for him, which was a big deal after Kathy Durst.

It was a huge story in Manhattan after she was missing, and you know, she's never been found and her body hasn't been and they declared her dead. You know, years later that Susan filled it and did all the interviews for Bobby, so the media.

would when she'd have to attend classes. And so he didn't report it right away, and I went to the Manhattan station and interviewed, you know, a couple of people there, the cops, and asked why, you know, why wasn't this investigated? They did not investigate it as a homicide. They didn't. They took his word for it, didn't do any searches for a while, and didn't ever really look at it as a homicide. It was just a missing person. They said she ran off, which, of course, you know, they

had a terrible side. She was visiting her friend that night at a party, and you know the captain, the Jamie, who is very good friends with too with Kathy Durst, and believed in her heart of hearts that that Bobby Durst that's her killer. And you know, people try to connect that scusan murder later. You know that she was going to spill the beans and so Bobby offed her because of it.

you know, in college. He bought her a convertible Mercedes fans and she you know, is middle of the Vietnam era too, it is kind of out of place at UC Berkeley, and she u twenty one. She got a lot of money to pay for her education too, and her support and then twenty five she got it chunk and thirty I think was when out twenty five or thirty is when she got to one point three million. I think she got large amounts. And then later there was some property that sold that her dad partially owned,

and she got a payment from that too. And she always complained that she didn't get any money from the mob, and it wasn't true. And because I pulled up all the financial records, they're all filed with the state and Davy's name is on him, and then her name is on it too, you know, as a dare. But she went to Bob. She was she didn't have any money, she couldn't get work. It was when she was in LA and she went to Bobby for money. She needed

a car and she needed support. She was being booted out of the place she lived in the house she lived in and Bobby made that's when he was missing in Texas, but she didn't know it. And I'm jumping the gun, but he's living as a woman, a mute woman. And he sent her two separate checks for twenty five thousand dollars each And people say, well, that was payal, but that was Bobby. We don't know what he gave

her over the years. He could have given her other large checks that she never told anybody about.

But in retrospect they looked at it and said she was probably talking about Bobby. You know, would Susan have done? I mean, she was loyal to a tea. That's one thing she learned from her father is you know, you don't you don't you know, knock on people you you know, you keep secrets. I mean she if it's true, she kept a secret for a very long time for Bobby. So what would motivate her He just gave her money. What would motivate her to you know, turns, you know,

become a become a witness for the state. I mean, I don't, I don't. Maybe he worried she would, but whoever came to her house that night, she let that person in. And she had also another another clue to putting Bobby durs next to the murder. Is he she told some friends that Bobby was going to come and visit her. He was in San Francisco. Who's going to be in San Francisco because he had a place there, a condo in the city, and he was going to

go to La and visitor. That's and he was going to take her back to San Francisco's what she told France.

Kathy Durst investigation was closing in. Uh And so he goes to Galveston Bay, to a little crummy area of the of the of town and near the near the water, near Galveston Bay and rants this little motel kind of a you know, weekly rental or whatever. They are a

little just imagine a little beach place. And his neighbor is uh more as Black and an older guy, and they befriend each other, and apparently he pissed off uh Bobby, and he said that there was a gun and and it was drawn but he didn't mean to he didn't mean to pull the trigger, and that he accidentally killed one Morris Black. And so to get rid of him, he got a saw chainsaw and he sawed him up in the in in the rental and put him in

bags and dropped him in Galveston Bay. And then a fisherman and his twelve year old son were out fishing and came across body parts, body parts. I think it was the head first and can you imagine that? Poor kid? And uh, and then he went on that he went on the lamb after after he dropped the you know, dropped the body parts.

you know. But I was interviewing Dick de Garon and and said, you know, I mean, you know, Bobby was never interviewed by the by the police for Susan's murder. So the lapd kind of dropped the ball in a couple of ways. Who's never interviewed Dick was, And so I asked, I asked mister de Geran if if Bobby had an alibi because he's got an alibi. He was in San Francisco. He was in the air headed from San Francisco to New York when she was killed. Well,

that wasn't accurate. He was in the air when her body was found, but she'd been dead for twenty four hours, which gave him Appleton. That's an hour flight from sep Francisco to LA that's a four hour drive, five hour drive, four and a half. And I've done it, and uh so he actually had plenty of time. There's what what was he doing the day before, you know, Friday night?

You know, and whoever whoever left And Bobby was also one of the things he had in common, huge animal lover, and he apparently had an Afghan dog and she was she had three god Wire terriers and hyper little dogs. And whoever killed her left the back door open so those dogs could come and go, and that's how they found out her body was in there, because her dogs were running in the front yard on Denied at Canyon Road.

So yeah, I mean, it all points to him, But they say they don't have enough evidence, and I'm like, God, wasn't there less evidence in the OJ case?

years and actresses as singers. Apartment who who offered her when she, you know, filed bankruptcy, she offered that Susan could live in that apartment with her as a boyfriend's daughter. And Susan stayed for five years. Can you imagine she just had a way of people. People did things for her, you know, I mean, people want people who knew her

and they loved her. But they were also exasperated by her, you know, I mean she offers her someplace to live temporarily and she stays five years and they had to do quite some cleaning because she had three dogs in there, and I guess and nobody had been in there in years, and I guess the place was the mask But that's where she met her manager and walking her dogs down the street and he was walking his and he just kind of took over managing her that she never paid him,

and he was upset with her because she owed him money. And he actually broke into the house the day Susan's body was found, and he broke into the house looking for her bank records. So but they didn't search his house or office for two months. So they they dropped the ball in some respects because they didn't get Bobby Durst. Never interviewed him, just his attorney and you know, never checked for you know, fingerprints or whatever, you know, matching

whatever they could on him. And well, you know, when his his when he was ultimately arrested for the Morris Black murder, he when he got off, you know, dickta Garon got him acquitted on self defense and he in his the trunks of his car were two guns and

one was a nine millimeter. Susan was shot with a nine millimeter and the ballistics on that because Susan, Susan was shot once in the back of the head coming out of her coming out of going into her spare room, and I felt like somebody was following her into the room, you know, but it was someone she knew. And uh, the ballistics on on that gun and the bullet at her house were inconclusive. So there you go. Yeah.

still have to have evidence that he did. So they don't have the evidence too, they say, I mean, I've seen circumstantial cases come in with Wes and you let the jury decide or you let the grand jury decide whether they want to and die them. But they never put this thing forward. I mean, he got a pass from Manhattan because of who his father was, you know, Seymourgers huge, I mean, owned half of Manhattan and he

seems to have gotten the past ever since. And you know, he had one of the best criminal defense attorneys in the country. You can't blame him, really, you know. I mean, the guy's not been convicted of murder, you know, and he's connected. He's tied to three murders and he's never never been convicted. So I don't know, you know, I think it's a I think it's one of two people in the case. But there I don't, you know, short of finding the smoking gun, I don't know that this case will ever be solved.

wasn't handled, you know, as as it could have been. Yeah, we'll never know certain certain points. But fascinating. I think her and I think it's sad. I think it's sad that no one has has has you know, come to justice in her case. She was sad character, wasn't she?