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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer.
The Nightstalker BTK.
Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your Host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening. Investigative reporter and author of Nobody's Women, Steve Miller makes a thoroughly researched inquiry into a murder that rocked the privileged world of Gross Point, Michigan. Bob boshera husband, father, rotary, club president, and community leader. Bob boshera slumlord, philanderer, and BDSM enthusiast, did he also hire a hit on his wife? Jane Bashera lived in Grosse Pointe Park, one of Metro Detroit's wealthiest communities, when she was strangled to death in
her own garage by local handyman Joe Gents. When Joe turned himself in, he told the cops everything, including how he was hired for a hit by Jane's husband, his payment two thousand dollars, and a used Cadillac. Born into one of Michigan's elite families, Bob was sweeping out the back alley of a property he owned. When his wife was being killed, he made sure the bartenders at the Hard Luck Lounge saw him there at the time of
her murder. He'd often bought brought girlfriends by the same bar, and for the last next year had been seen with one Rachel Jellette riding around town in her convertible, even showing up at BDSM events in the suburbs of Detroit. When Joe Gents confessed his sixty seven IQ and barfly reputation made him less than credible, Bob successfully denied any part in his wife's murder, but he couldn't deny his
attempt to have Joe killed in prison. The book that we're featuring this evening is Murder in Gross Pointe Park, Privilege, Adultery and the Killing of Jane Vashera, with my special guest, journalist and author Steve Miller. Welcome back to the program, and thank you for geing this interview.
Steve Miller, my pleasurement, thanks for having me.
Thank you very much. Another wild tale. As we were talking before that just before the program, incredible. Let's get to the question that's used to ask all the time, and I'll ask you this time, how did you come to be the author of this story. What compelled you to want to write this story? What brought you to this story in particular?
Well, I was actually reviewing going I was in Detroit quite a bit. I live about seventy miles from Detroit. I found myself in the city quite a bit at a certain point, and the story kept popping up, and I'd go and I was something completely, you know, different than this. I was doing a rock and roll book
about Detroit called Detroit Rock City. I was reviewing for that, doing interviews, and so it was twenty twelve and I was in the city a lot, and every place I want, anybody I would talk to would say, well, have you been following this? This the share case, you know, And I said no, no, you know, I'm pretty busy. And pretty soon I started perfectly, you know, reading things, you know, and I talked and I mentioned it conversation with somebody, and so it just kind of crept into my head,
you know, it just kept it kept sticking out. It's weird. The the BDFM stuff was coming out and a friend of mine had a radio show there, Charlie Langton. He had interviewed some people. It's getting more and more lurid and I just started picking up on it and following it, and eventually I found myself in a position, you know, where somebody said you're going to do another true crime book. That that's someone being my publisher, and I said, I said, sure,
I got something for you. Now. It was one of those things where I kind of just said, well, this is what I got. This is an idea, and they said that it's a great idea. Let's let's let's work on that. So that's where that's that's where it came about.
Now this book is called Murder in Gross Point Park, so obviously that's an important part of the story. So explain for our listeners a little just a little bit about Detroit in which people might know about, but Gross Point Park and what is the difference, And just before don't without giving too much away, what's the significance of murdering Gross Point Park.
Well, the idea is it's it's interesting because of course you know about know about Detroit. But the Points as they call them, there's a several small villages that make up the what are called the Points. It's traditionally been the exclusive kind of an exclusive enclave of Detroit. Uh, it's a place where historically money went and did beautiful homes. The sheriffs, for example, lived on a beautiful street in
the huge house. And so it's the idea of murder there is is very unique that there hadn't been a murder for a few years and uh, and then you know, and before that, there hadn't been very many murders either. So he's uh, you know, this was a this came came out of the blue. It was you know, it was an odd thing to have happened. Then to compound that, you know, you had a you had the son of a prominent appellate judge. Uh, you know, was a former Pellet Duch was deceased at the time of the murder.
But you had this the sun privilege who was accused. You know, his wife was murdered. He was accused of, you know, of the murder. Initially they said, well, you know, it's always a husband, right. So the points are a very ripsy player of Detroit.
Let's talk about Bob Bushera. You just mentioned that, of course he comes from a family that's very privileged but also very respected family in terms of the judicial system. And Bob has a good reputation as well at the time of the murder. So let's give us give us a background on Bob Bushera. What is it really like? What has he done in his life up to this point, because we're talking about around fifty years of age when
we were talking about him in this story. So tell us a little bit about Bob Bushera.
Well, I mean, Bob cher was let's say, the son of George Shera junior, who was initially appointed at the state Pellet judge and uh, and then he was subsequently elected and he was very successful. He went on to become a corporate council for a federal mogul, which is a an auto connected company. And you know, he was Bob a share. I served as head of the local rotary club. He was a deacon at Episcopal Church. He was a member of the local country club. He was
a golfer. He was a landlord. He had you know, residential and commercial properties, and he was just kind of a man about town. You know, everybody knew him. It's the Big Bob. Big Bob was his license. He had his mom got him a plate, vanity plate, the Big Bob. And and he was he was literally he's a big guy, big presence, big boys talking all the time, and you know, he was he had a big personality and some people
liked him, some people didn't. But but that was his deal, you know, And he could say he was he was just born into born into money and he and he stayed with it.
Now, tell us about Jane Basher. She's she's a little bit older than him in age. And and before we talk about his daughter, Jessica, tell us a little bit about how we met Jane Cheron. When when they got together.
Jane was Jane was Bob's second wife. Bob we've been married young and and so on, so and so this was his second wife. And he met not long after they met, not you know, not not too long after Bob divorced. Jane had never been married before, and she'd you know, she'd graduated from from a university and uh, she was she was a good student. She's a business, business student. She went on to get a you know,
really pretty good job. They met around nineteen eighty three, and they met at a party, and you know, in eighty five they got married. And you know, again, Jane, Jane came from a fairly middle class family. Bob came from an fluent upper class family at you know, he was a churchgoer, family oriented and ambitious, that kind of stuff. And Jane was a somewhat reserved, if not a dignified
woman with a great future. So when they married in eighty five, this is a pretty good Yeah, it was a pretty good marriage.
Now they have a child shortly after Jessica. But you talk about what he describes his relationship as to his friends and people that he might meet in that relationship in that time, and the way she described their relationship, which was vastly different.
Tell us about that. Well. But by the time, by the time we got to the you know, they had two kids. They had two children and had one a son in nineteen eighty eight, daughter in nineteen ninety two. And uh, his idea of the marriage, of course, was he would say it's a it's pretty much. As things progressed and the children left and so on. Bob had
a proclivity towards the BDSM community. Let's see if we get this right, bondage discipline, say, to the masochism, it's a lifestyle based in in those in those four elements. And and so he his deal was, and he always contended that his wife really didn't care. She didn't want to have anything to do with it, but let's let him do what he wants to do. Jane, on the other hand, had told her friends there's nothing like that, and that's what they were repeating it back to her.
But you know, there was definitely a difference in opinion and views of how you know this, Uh, this proclivity was viewed in the in the relationship. Further, Bob had grow friends, several of them and as you pointed out, the outset his serious one was Rachel Jillette, who was a secretary at Wayne State University local university there in Detroit.
Now we talk about this BDM lifestyle, but what I had mentioned that he had expressed the people who had an open relationship, and that's what when when you talk about how he posted on BDSM sites as well, he said he was a widower with someone in college and so he was misrepresenting so wasn't living any life of honesty, And how he portrayed himself was that had an open relationship, but she would say to her girlfriends that he was
impotent and couldn't get it up. So there was a different representation of their relationship, wasn't there.
Yeah, there was. I mean, let's face it, you know, it's not you're not going to go on the BDSM sites. You know, Master Bob married father too. Yeah, I don't, I don't know, you know, that's not really you know, that's not pulling a lot of a lot of partners. But uh, Master Bob, you know, widowed or whatever. That's that's you know, that's a little bit more sympathetic. I mean,
there was a lot more. Of course, there's a lot more to that to that ad, you know, but he you know, in which he details what he can do, how he's the dominant, dominant one, et cetera, et cetera, and he's you know, he's he's he's quite the man. If you uh, you know, if you if you would read his his posting online and effect what I found he had had the dungeon too. You know.
What I found fascinating. We'll talk about the dungeon right now too, is that what I found fascinating was this guy that, as you portray in the book, is not really liked, but a lot of people it's look at a loud mouthed Cooke snorting blowhard here from for a lot of people, including that this landlord, and we'll talk about what kind of landlord he is too, but he's on the lower level of you know, landlords than being
appreciated as a good landlord. But getting back to this, you know, Master Bob for a guy that's impotent, it just I just found it fascinating.
Again.
I had no idea that we're talking about a lifestyle where there's these women. Again, not too many people think he's that great, but there are women on this site that think he's incredible and are willing to be submissive to him. But despite that, they're just they're not idiots. They're very, very charmed by this guy. And he's a master despite being totally impodent. It's very fascinating to me.
So may you told us a little bit about about that. Master Bob is ad is add one of his ads. Master Bob a complete trainer. I will open train and guide you in this lifestyle off what you see is learning through doing that. I'm here and look for you to come to me, Neil and have all your desires and cravings opens to you. Are you ready for Master Bob? I will make you love and enjoy a lovely mix of moderate pain and pleasure. So I guess it just goes to show you someone out there for everyone.
Now, his oldest child, Jessica. You also talk about Jessica knowing what's going on in the relationship between their parents and to the point of reading his text. So tell us about this exchange in the home.
Yeah, and that was, you know, that was really uncomfortable. I mean, you know, to think about that, that she's she's reading these texts and so on and and so so, I don't know, it was you know, it was kind of like, you know, she would see these and they hear they were text to his girlfriends and and so on. And then then what's worse is he had to explain to her that he had, you know, some sort of a rectile dysfunction thing going and so yeah, you know, and to top that off, this so she saw what
what she sees. She saw something on his cell phone, a message something about get down and give me head blah blah blah. This is something that the schera bob. It's sent to a woman. And then Jessica goes and takes the phone, takes it and shows him, and she's like, what is this?
What is this?
He just takes it and and deletes the message. Then he goes, I don't know what you're talking about a message. It's a very weird way to act. I don't quite you know, it's it's it's brutal.
Now part of this lifestyle, he has another twist to it, or maybe this is a common part of the BDSM lifestyle. They try to bring in the third person that is agreeing to these terms as well, and all three connect and because it's online, there isn't a physical their meeting at the coffee shop right away. So there's this meeting. So tell us about Rachel, and tell us about another person named Porter before we talk about Lehman, because of all these characters do come into play and much more
importance later on. So tell us about Rachel, and tell about this person named Porter and some some of the well, one of the major events that happens in the book, well.
He Bob met this woman named Vanita Porter on a BDSM site. You know, Vanita Porter was a single mom in the forties. She had some sort of financial problem and you know, Bob, you know, talked about you know, and he said hey, I can help, you know, and she's she even said, she said, well, he was looking for a submissive and she needed food and chose for her kids and so so really she she she somehow became like, you know, part of this little family, and I guess Bob passed it off as he was trying
to help her. He did this, you know, this is kind soul who was helping Bevanita Porter. And she went to church even with his family, and and even you know, got Bob gifts at Christmas. But actually they were having you know, they were kind of like in a you know, kind of an odd kind of way, they're having a relationship. I mean, I don't know really what that know, the elements of it were based in rooted in b DSM
because that was their whole deal. So, I mean, they'd gone to church together, and she also joined the local rotary club because Bob said, it's great to meet people blah blah blah. And so so one Bob has I also has, you know, is hanging out with Rachel as well. He'd already met Rachel and so somehow Bob, you know, a weird thing, he arranged to meet Rachel and Avanita at the same time, and that meant they all met at this this place and somehow you know who knows,
you know that what he was thinking. But but he set it up so that Nita would walk in on him and Rachel having sex at this at this place, and it was just very strange. It was just, you know, an odd thing to do, and it was brutal to hear about, because and again you're you're looking at somebody and it's kind of an odd, callous kind of thing and it's kind of inhumane. But that was an odd episode. And I'll tell you when that guy relaid in court,
nobody could believe. They thought that was just you know, but again, this this whole case. Every time I wrote something on this, every time I started writing things that I'd be writing, even reading them back, and I think that just doesn't even seem plausible. But you know that I have to go back and read my notes again and did I just imagine that's there? You know, did this really happen? You know, is there really somebody that does this kind of stuff?
Now meanwhile in the relationship, because let's talk about what at the same time is happening simultaneously, and this is A fascinating part of this book is that the relationship he's having with Rachel, which is his BDSM partner, and he's also talking about other plans outside of the BDSM, mostly fantasy world, but real concrete plans of cohabitation and I guess romance. But anyway, we'll get you to talk about that. But at the same time, what's going on
with Jane in the household? We talked about Jessica knowing that her father was beyond strange, but that Jane was moving towards a divorce. So tell us about these two simultaneous situations and how he represents to both parties.
Well, I mean, what happens is what happens. I guess you know. Jane is she's she's considering that kind of thing, and she's at that that point, she's not really she'd asked her for it. It was kind of a she started acquiring her where her Jane started inquiring her friends, what's it like to be single again? You know, she asked them over a freshly divorced friends, and so on and so forth, and then finally she actually decided that she was going to try to build the whole thing
back with them. With Bob. That was her intent. That was Jane was, you know, I'm you know, we're gonna we're going to uh, we're going to make this work and so on. And they were taking trips. They were taking trips together and you know, having fun and she you know, you know, they actually towards the end before Jane was murdered, they were actually having things were okay.
And meanwhile, though, Bob is looking at houses and promising Rachel that he's going to be divorced soon and actually she thought he was divorced at some points, and uh, and that you know, they're going to move in together and live happily over here. They're actually looking at houses in gross Point, you know.
As a couple, and they're also going out unabashedly like a couple and in like again in the same small relatively small area with and he encounters it's amazing in the book too, they're looking at a home and they encounter the friends of Jane and Bob. And again he's a smooth talker. He has to kind of talk his way out of that one as well. So he's very glib. He's very good, this guy, isn't he.
Yeah, he's just how just how And I think that was part of his things, that well, we did everything, I we just I guess you know, it's all right, you must know about it. Car never said been shopped together at like, you know, at Kroger in you know, right there in the or right far from Bob's house.
Let's talk about finances to what was Bob purporting to be in terms of his wealth to someone like Rachel, and what was the real situation. How well was he doing financially or not well?
He he would say that he was he'd say he was doing all right. He said he you know, he had plenty of money. The fact is he was overly leveraged. He had he had these properties, you know, they were actually he and Rachel were looking at this house. It was worth over three hundred grand and you know, and but you know his mom Actually what happened is his mom had was helping him out financially periodically, not not you know, he had kind of run out. He'd kind
of run that that alley. And uh, you know Jane was the breadwinner. She's you know, she's making six figures and uh, and so they definitely had enough money to survive if Bob was doing his thing with his uh, you know, his low rent properties and so on. I think he had a couple that were paying pretty well. But in general he wasn't pulling his weight in terms of finances. But again, he was overly leveraged. If he would have cashed in property, probably would suits of money.
But but yeah, Jane was the breadwinner. She had the money and uh and Bob's you know, when Bob would talk about you know, you talked to friends. He's talking to friends about his divorce, and you know, he said, it's just going to be so expensive if I act your divorce. What he really meant was, I'm not gonna have any more money. Yeah.
Now let's talk about Bob and his properties. Now, he's this guy that seems to give guys, as you talk about in the book, a couple of guys he's given a break to, which end up pretty interesting. In the story, guys have been known to be ex cons. He gives him a break, gets them an apartment. An example is another guy that needs a break, this Joe Gentz. Tell us about Joe gent with a Z at the end and tell us what kind of predicament he's in. And Bob comes to his aid, tell us about that.
Well, Joe Gantz is just kind of a roust about a guy. He's a you know, how do you say? He's just kind of this guy who was it had just a kind of a rough life. He's as I say in the book, it says he was kind of a he didn't have he was low iq. He had anger issues. He was not a bad guy. This is not a guy who was Everybody said, oh man, he's just a yeah, you know, he's a he's a killer. He did had some violent tendencies, but they were born of frustration. I don't think they were born of aggression.
He grew up in a working class community. He was a big guy, this huge, huge guy, you know, is six foot four, maybe even bigger than that. Broad shoulder, just huge, and so you know, he became as he got out out of school, he became kind of roused about. He's kind of a you know, he traveled around. He was a you know, he was he worked on a ship. You know, he worked on a something called the Overseas Philadelphia Shipping Tanker. And he picked up, he picked up.
He was a union laborer there and I was a deck on the deck for about five years and he was partying art and so on. He had some sort of injury claim and he took took a little bit of cash from that. He drifted over to d C sister and then he went over then he was He ended up back to Michigan and he got married, had a kid, had a daughter, and that was a big deal to him. He had a daughter and the mother they got divorced, he lost the kid and so on.
And at the time he was he met Bob. He was introduced to Bob as a guy who could do some work for him, a handyman. Bob needed a handyman. Always need a handyman. And at the time, Joe Agains was trying to get custody of his daughter, trying to take care of his daughter, and he needed the money real bad. So that's where he was. He's kind of a desperate guy when he met he's kind of a desperate guy when he met Bob. He needed a place
to live. He's been convicted from his apartment and you know, he had yeah, I think he had a little disability and you know payment, that's about it.
And you talk about in the book that just for the record, which is incredible is between September and January was four high undred and seventy phone calls. So they were inextectably involved. These guys weren't there.
They were talking. They were talking a lot, Bob told me. And by the way, part of this, a lot of this book includes conversations because I talked to Bob the Shara quite a bit, right, And that was one other thing where we go back to the beginning. He said, what major wrete this book is the access to Bob the Shera. He and I say this. He's always insisted he did not have anything to do with the murder of James Er. Even after he's convicted, he said, I
had nothing to do with this murder. His story has stayed the same. The stories stayed the same from the time I talked to him initially to the time to just recently when he was in court on the stand saying he had nothing to do with this murder. But Bob talked to me throughout this whole thing. We exchanged emails and talked on the phone quite a bit. So all this information I get, there's a lot of this is just from Bob telling me, telling me these kinds
of things just about exactly what happened. So after I did that, just now went off on that tangent. I forget the question, so here we go, but.
Hear me, it was fascinating. It is fascinating addition to the book too, that you have those emails and then you said that it became easier to have phone calls, and then you have those transcribed and put in the book. For the most part too, I don't know for the most part, but some really interesting stuff and revelations and conversations that are included in this book as well. Let's get back to again, I don't know anything really about
the BDSM lifestyle. And it's not like I'm interested in the lurid details or that I'm interested in the seriousness of murder and these other things might be interesting, but this is important to the story. And also again one of these things I didn't know about and I find again, you know, hauntingly involved in this is this, and you can explain what this is, this breath play, so parts of the BDSM lifestyle, which kind of shocking to me,
This breath play and what's involved in that. And also this edition of another character is very important to this story, and her name is Lehman. And again another person who as a third but was contacted again. This is online, so they don't live in the same area, So tell us about this Leman person. And also just a couple of the things that are characterized by this BDM less lifestyle that I don't know seem to be part of the story. If we're talking about strangulation.
Well, vdsm's bondage is really we can go on to a period of full fully the four letter acronyms bondage, discipline, submission state. As a massachist, it's kind of like as a sexual version of Dungeons and Dragons. There's a huge element of fans see it on predictability. Supposedly it fulfills without harming anyone, which leads to breath play, which is choking someone out to the point of unconsciousness and then allowing them to come back and uh I was supposed
to heighten sexual awareness and so on. Oddly, this is serial killers engage in this in breath play, take a victim, kidnap a victim and choke them to the point of of of death and let them come back. It's kind of interesting that the connections between breath play between both the world of b DSM and in the world of murder. So so that's that's what the BDSM thing entails in
a nutshell. Janet Lehman was a it was a woman in Oregon, and he lived in a little town in Bend, Oregon, and she was into the lifestyle and on a website. And what they had, what Bob Rachel had fantasized about, is having a a a three ways essentially a relationship, a household for Bob's the master and he serves two women and somehow it's this is supposed to be great
for everyone involved. And so you know, Janet Lehman talked with talked with them on the phone, and it was agreed that Bob would go out and meet her, and so he flew out to Oregon. And I interviewed Janet extensively for the for the book, and she said it was a nightmare that Bob was was rude, abrasive and put everyone off, including her, and they had sex. That it was a nightmare and the whole thing she couldn't wait to get rid of, given her dog didn't like him.
Yeah, have visceral reaction, Yeah sure, yeah, Now by the time that Lehman is in the picture, though, things have changed. And why did she have why was she so smitten with him in the first place, and and why specifically was she again then afraid of him actually.
You mean Janet, Yes, yeah, because he was well, he was strange. I mean, he was really strange for one thing. But I mean, uh, she she wanted to She actually after he left, he kept trying to He kept trying to get back with her, and he kept there's a point where he was almost stalking her, you know, calling her all the time and so on, and uh and just trying to you know, trying trying to get her, I guess, to get it get into this whole whole
relationship thing. And she was really you know, she was really upset by this whole the whole thing because she had almost been strangled at the death by this guy, and so you know, the triage thing was not going to work out, and and so yeah, that was that was Jane's take on this whole thing.
Right now, let's talk about just the events leading up to the day in question with Jane Bashera and Joe Gentz and tell us all those surrounding events that preclude the event, the murderous event itself.
Well, I mean, when you think about it, the murderer really came out, came out of nowhere. Of course, nobody really expected it, you know. I mean as they got toward the day of that, he was kind of he was kind of cracking a little bit. He was his obsession with Rachel was in his sexual obedism lifestyle. He was so obsessed with all this stuff. He fell behind
on the country club dues. He you know, he took out at one point he had taken like ten thousand dollars who wanted to Jane's retirements account retirement accounts without asking her. He was watching he was obsessed with internet pornography, and you know, so it was it was all this, all these things were starting to you know, to kind of I don't know, just trying to starting to come to a head. At the end of December or early January, I believe it was his end of December, he went
to North Carolina to a wedding with Rachel. Rachel's daughter I believe, was getting her son was getting married, and Bob Bob went down there with her and just like he was the guy, you know in the relationship and.
And so on.
So and Rachel was just totally in love with Bob, and so they went down there to this this kind of thing, and so on and so forth, and everything was you know, but but he was also talking to you know, he was talking to Joe Gaines obsessively almost because they were they were planning this murder. Joe didn't want to do it. Joe would tell his friends, he's posing what afs even the people that he that he knew, And what if somebody asked you to kill somebody for
this amount of money? And everybody said, well, that's crazy, it's crazy talk, you know. And and so as we led up to it, you had a frenzied activity as far as sell you know, sell records and cell phone calls and yeah, so it was really and and you know, of course, you know, Jane had no idea. This of course had no idea. So this is her husband.
How was he portraying? How was Bob Scherer portraying the need or the necessity to kill his wife? And what other kind of intimidation was he other than he was in dire straits financially, But what kind of intimidation process or and tactics. Did Bob share employ over this dim witted sixty seven IQ guy in desperate situation?
Oh, he was just he was trying to tell him, you know these you know that he was trying to he was trying to bully him essentially into just saying you know and just saying, well, you know, you don't know what you know. There were there were kind of things like, Joe, let's take this back. Joe Gans had always been like this guy who was what do I want to say? He was kind of uh uh, he liked to take dares. He would do anything to get attention.
He just wanted wanted people to like him and that kind of thing, and so, you know, he was he really just didn't want to you know, he would do things on a dare, and in this case, he was you know, he was kind of I don't know. Bob was just kind of really really really pushing him. He
really said, I really want to do this. I really wanted you know, I really want you to do this, and he kept he kept pushing him, he said, you know, and it turns out that he set him up to come you know, set it up to come on over to the house. And when Jane would be home and Against you know, he was telling me, you want this money, I'm gonna pay this money. You know, he had initially had said it was going to be six thousand, and
then it got down to two thousand. Yeah, but but Gainst really needed to really really needed the money.
The price that we mentioned in the opening was around two thousand dollars, so close to two thousand dollars, and they used Cadillac correct an altar Cadillac right.
At one point he had talked about six thousand. Against him, I telling people he was going to ye know, he's going to come into six thousand dollars in a car, and you know who knows he had it, He had it confused. But but no, no matter what, as he said. Against Labor later said he that the shriff told me he said, I want you to knock my wife out. I wanted to kill her, make it look like an accident. And then you know, the share started coming by against
the apartment. He said, why haven't you taken care of it? You know, Bob, you know it might not be for me. He said, I need you to take care of it, and yeah, finally did it.
He played upon that Joe Ginst was interested in maintaining his relationship with his foster daughter, and so that was initial in that he saw that insecurity. Wasn't it that he knew he needed money for that noble effort?
Yeah, he knew that. He was. Yeah, he was, you know, dangling that in front of him. He really, you know. But at the same time, the share was more, I guess, a little gruffer than that. He just said, I need you to do this. You got to do this.
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Nous necessary DL where everybody lost in terms conditions eighteen plus, you know, that was really where he was.
There was that and he talked about the invite to the house where Jane was there, and then how they maneuvered her into the garadge or how it happened that she was in the garage and what was said because obviously, like you say, Bob has maintained his innocence, so it really is obviously there's only one witness. And what did he say was said to him, tell us take us to that murder scene itself.
Well they got as it comes down, and this is according to Joe Gins and this is his you know, it was the share had told Against that he needs some help movies and boxes at the house. It's around six thirty and and Gainst got there and Jane was home, and Bob told him there were some boxes in the garage, and they were in the garage talking and Jane came out to the garage and there's stuff everywhere. If you see a picture of the garage, it's a champagned and
she was angry with Bob. Bob had done, you know, he had crap everywhere at some golf clubs and boxes, and Bob supporting it to Gainst pulled a gun and held it on Against and said you got to do this now, you got to do this now.
And and that was it.
And Against dropped her with a punch and crushed her throat.
With his work boot. Yeah a couple of times. Yeah, then what they do.
Put her in the back of a Mercedes suv. Jamed her in there, and Against drove it to this part of Detroit, really bad part of de Troit, really bad part of de Troit, because I did door knocks over there just to find out if there's anybody around the saw anything or do anything, talk to anybody. And it was bad Pstroit and they just dumped the car there.
It was. It was dumping. I mean really, this is a block where you know, maybe you'll have three boarded up houses and then one that's actually working, and then you'll have three more boarded up and the one that's working, and uh, and it's just totally trashed. I mean this alley. In fact, when the alley where he parked, it was right off the street. You could see it, which is why the tow truck driver which opens the scene. I
talked to the guy who found the car. It's just like this is, you know, just sitting there is you know, you find dumped cars all the time. You don't find dump cities all the time. And and so he saw that, you know, I saw the car and he knew something something was going on, and uh, they just let it run and they just took off and then against against park it took off start walking they had and then the thing was against was walking. He had you worked
to with Donald's and so on. They had cameras, you know, they followed the video cameras they you know, they'd see him going lined up perfectly with the times.
Now the police know that this is a crime scene and luckily nobody disturbs it too much. But we won't get into too much because it just seems to be a recurrent theme a lot of times. Is that not exemplary evidence gathering was employed by the police department. You talk about the newbie, sort of rookie gross Point Park Police, small force, zero experience, and then Detroit Police's police Department's involvement.
Just tell us a little bit about maybe what was not really handled so well in terms of you talk about the clothing.
Yeah, yeah, Well what you've done is what you had. The body was dropped in a jurisdiction Detroit. It's going to be handled by the Detroit Police Department, which is a pretty good department. I mean, these people handle crimes all the time, and they don't there that they're they're they have the same problem as any big bureaucracy does in Detroit. That's manifested times ten because it's Detroit. But they do they can do some crime, they do some crime,
good crime investigation. But when it was determined that Jane was murdered elsewhere and it was traced back to gross Point Park, that becomes the department that handles the murder The problem is these guys were terrible to this. They didn't have any experience in it, and not only that, but they were just they were just really really bad at it. And not only that, but I guess the
worst part was they were really bad at it. They hadn't had a murder there since jeez, what was that nineteen ninety two, And not only were they bad at it, but they didn't even take direction very well. Because in a case like this, the county is Wayne County, and the County prosecutors office has jurisdation they're going to prosecute if in the eventuality of the murders found and so on and so forth. But they couldn't even take direction from the Wayne County prosecutors off the same and you
need to do this, you need to do that. They just shined all this stuff. They just they wouldn't even do it. They wouldn't even do some interviews. In fact, they were They didn't even get Jane's clothes. They failed to get to retrieve the clothes from the funeral home and that that Jane was wearing when she was murdered and she was, you know, and they lost those. They didn't get the there was a security camera in the alley where Bob used as his alibi, saying I was
in this alley cleaning up when this murder happened. They could never have been part of this. They didn't, you know, they never even got the video to, you know, to see what went on in that alley and see if they could even prove that Bob's theory was correct. They never even got the video in time. It was taped over by the time they went and think to get that, so they made all kinds of mistakes. And again they were kind of arrogant about it too. So you know,
you got stupidity combined with arrogance. You got a room. Bud.
Now, tell us about how the police do proceed and how do they come to find out here was it?
Tips?
How did they find out to hear a little bit more about you know, despite his going to church and the Rotary club president that there was a much different side to Bob Bashira.
Well this is even better against and goes and turns himself in about six weeks later. Five weeks later, he turns himself in, tries to turn himself in at the growth point of police and they they they don't they don't keep it. This guy's crazy, so and so and so later you know, and so. But essentially they everybody reconsiders, they said, what are you guys not? Just you know,
they look checked it out, followed it up. They rest him a little while later against the uh the schrier maybe do it tells the whole story, and but he confesses that I did it, you know, but Bob Chera set me up to do this and and so on,
and so it's pretty easy then. But before anything can happen, Bob Basher decides because Joe's confessed, he's in jail already waiting sentencing, Bob decides that he probably should put out a hit on Joe GenZ because Joe YenS is you know, well, Bob's reasoning is, this is the guy that killed my wife. Everybody else's reasoning is Joe Gens is going to spill the beans on Bob. So Bob decides he better set
up a hit on me, jail house hit. And Bob goes to a local used appliance salesman, which I guess is where everybody goes when you're going to set up a hit jaill house hit. And a local appliance salesman says, sure, I can help you, then goes to the FBI where's a wire at Boom Bob is arrested for soliciting murder. Jogins.
Now, the what's interesting is that we skipped through a lot of great juicy stuff in there as well, because you talk about the used used appliance guy, but really it's sort of a don wanna be if I can use that phrase, you know, he's a don wanna be And but what as you again? I like the sarcastic tone that you have in there, because his story's kind of ridiculous in some ways. It's nobody would write fictional stuff that's this humorous. He's running right away, this don
wanna bee guy to the FBI. And it's not just altruistic intentions either.
Is it. No? No, well, Steve, the guy's name is Steve Thibodeau. And yeah he was, he was. It's just an interesting it's just a character. He's uh, you know it. You know. The odd part about it is what do they say? How is he gonna? You know, they're talking about how is he gonna murder? And this is all you know, hurt in court? How's he gonna kill Joe GAINSTI, well, I'll tell you what we could poison in the food glass and the salt shaker. You know, this kind of thing.
A grenade launcher, who knows and somehow he just he just, you know, somehow Bob Share believes this, you know. So, and then not only that, but uh and Bob asked a couple other people and then by you know, Bob, you know, he was just asking around, you know, how do you how do you do this? And that kind of thing. But the Thibodeau we obviously Thibodeau U Thibodeau is not the guy for the to set up the murder because he he took the Yeah, he went right to the FBI.
Now he has to get something really worthwhile. And obviously the police know the kind of content they need to be able to put this guy away. Uh, were serious enough about this to go give him the two thousand dollars down payment on the twenty thousand dollars. And like you say, Thibodeau has to really elicit a worthwhile confession. So tell us about that exchange that he tries to get and he does get.
Between the two, well, let me try to think about this on this goo he said he was he was what was he doing? He was complaining and he was talking about you know, they had all these conversations where they're just talking about, you know, the Wayne County Prosecutor's office was coming by, and and yes, he it was a twenty thousand dollars price tag with the cher gave him a few thousand dollars down. If the job didn't
get done, the sherer would get his money back. This is all on tape, so you know, and so but also I will say this on the tape. Also, a share is continually saying he'd never hired Joe to kill his wife. And he keeps telling he said this on the tape. That was really kind of you know, again, there's some weird consistency there because he used to insist
that this never never happened. But finally about killing killing Joe, he finally says, okay, let's do this, the sooner the better, and h and pretty much you know, and they talk about the money, you know, and Monday I'll be there and and so you know, essentially he you know, he he got you know, gave him the money. Had a bogus invoice applying its two thousand dollars down payment to a twenty thousand dollars with him. Yeah, with the worth of appliances, and that was it. He was ready to go.
What's also laughable, almost fictional sopranos is is that Bob Ashira is a suspicious creature and figures his buddy might be wired. So he's patting him down old old school style the way, looking for wires that would appear if you were wired twenty years before. So very comical.
Actually down, yeah, he said, Bob says to him. He says, well, if you're wearing a wire, kill me now. And tibeteau' pasilion. We don't go aroun wearing wires. Yeah, I don't know where I mean, it's true. It's like this is a dialogue and it is. It's both like they both will watch way too much, way too much sopranos.
Yeah, very funny. So now so now how do police proceed with this? Again we talked about not the best sort of process to be able to prosecute these people. Of course, Joe Gantz gives them the huge gift and again it's almost comical, and we skipped over that a little bit too because when he does go into the police station, the guy told him, listen, there's no detective on today right now, why don't you come back around on eight, which is you can't write that stuff. It's
pretty funny. And then even when he came back, they tried to talk him out of giving a statement. And it wasn't just Joe Gainst, it was this very credible guy that went with him, trying to try to implore the police that hey, listen, you don't understand see this case that's huge. This guy's got this is a confession. So they're very reluctant to even respond to that, which is again very comical.
Yeah, it is, it is. It's strange. It is his friend. You know, he had trusted this guy and against kept telling him, you know, he was just he's in trouble and and so on, and finally yeah, this guy, uh, Steve Vergona went in with him and uh and said you got you know this guy did this. He's trying to and Vigona is a little better spoken, right and so, and he's known he's known against for for a long time. But he took him in the police department itself. And
now they are right Joe. He's a credible guy.
They offer Joe Gainst. Again, it's incredible to me coming from Canada when I hear these American deals. It's like, sixteen to twenty eight years is the deal if he testifies against him, and first they have to see if he's fit to stand trial, which he clears that hurdle. Now, Joe Gens is a pretty sympathetic character and a lot of people have helped them out over the years because they think he's a pretty likable guy. The police are pretty sympathetic and believe they got a pretty good witness.
That's not the only witness they have. But they're really counting on Joe Gainst to a great degree, aren't they.
With this, He's going to be the key witness, and you know, to say anything other They gave him a deal second degree murder. This was clearly first degree. I mean, this is agreed upon beef for murder. This is clearly a first degree murder charge. And they let him play
down in a deal. They gave him second degree murdered and seventeen to twenty eight And but there was the agreement that Joe against would testify as to everything he had told the cops and the trial came around and Joe against said that I'm not going to do it. The reason is a bunch of people in the jailhouse got into his head and said, you should be getting a better deal than this. You know. It's not that
I don't know. You know, I'm pretty sure prisons aren't filled with you know, with legal geniuses, but some of them are not bad, you know. But clearly he had some bad advice and he was going to be spending you know, seventeen to twenty eight years there. He wanted out. And Joe was not getting along in prison at all either.
He's having a hard time. He had a lot of a lot of write ups, but so essentially he was out in terms of the identifying made the prosecution shob very difficult, and it made for a long trial and made for a lengthy group of witnesses because you had to make up from the lack of gains.
He also had a very capable attorney that came on board, not read at the beginning, but eventually David Griham, if that's the way he pronounce his name, came on board and he did his best to do the you know, the pre trial publicity and make sure that he tried
to do damage control for his client's name. And what was another interesting part of your book is how much the tactic of the police and the prosecution together to leak information purposely, quickly and to bolster their prosecution in depicting Bob Bascher as this deviant and the lifestyle and playing it up. And then you also talk about how reviled Bashira becomes in even places that he is a landlord for. So talk a little bit about that police.
Well, first of all, the Detroit the prosecution, Wayne County, and the Detroit Police Department did a great job of demonizing Bob the share through his year, as you say, through leaks and and so on. In the book, I chronicle a lot of these leaks and how they placed these at good times, and they were you know, they at the same time they were taking all of Bob's resources, every resource they could get, you know, he had. And of course none of Jane's money could go to him.
She had something like an eight hundred thousand dollars distribution in one of her for own k's and he couldn't get access to that. They took the house and took the proceeds from the house. And then so he had really no resources. And and so they did a great job of demonizing as demonizing the share. So the public silement was clearly against him no matter what. And and and yes Bob got a well he could pay for a lawn. He got a very very good defense learn
named David Grimm. Uh this is at the outset of the case. And this is before before Besi was arrested for solicitation of murder and uh. Then finally Grim maybe ran out of money. I think the Grim backed off the case. You might have been fired by the by
the family. I can't remember now, but but yeah, so it was it was a masterful job of the cops in terms of how they approached the prosecution and made sure that he had very little resources, because a wealthy defendant is going to give you a lot of problems. Now with.
Bob Ashera. And we we talked about Joe Gainst, and that falls through tell us about Bob a Shira after Dave Griham and the solicitation. Again, what was interesting is that both of these people have spoken to so many people. Joe Gainst told people before he ever did anything that he was going to get a couple of thousand dollars in a Cadillac. He told a woman, and Bob A Shira went and asked a bunch of people or numerous people about certain things involving this and made certain statements.
So how do police proceed to try to deal with Bob Shira in this case in this trust.
Or What they did was they rounded up a bunch of people that talked to you know, the one the one guy where he talked about how he you know this guy, you know they he said, Bob told him right in the car that that essentially, you know that he did it. He was he murdered, you know that
that he edited him and and so it was. And then they got his cellmate who asked he was talking about and he's talking about you know, Bob again was talking you know these about the BDSM and so on and so forth, and he just talked about, yeah, he was just they were What they did was they rounded up everybody that Bob had talked to about the case. And in some cases he said I had put out a hit on my wife, I had my wife killed. Other people said he had talked before this whole thing
went down about a divorce. I was way too expensive to get a divorce, and how unhappy he was, and so on and so forth. They rounded everybody out and threw it in the courtroom. They all got up on the stand and testify, and it worked. Convinced a jury and the evidence. I gotta say I was there.
It was.
It was very, very convincing.
What was Bob a Chera's demeanor and court and his behavior? If any.
Who he was, he was just Bob the riff. He was. You know, he had a couple of medical problems understandably during trial and stress he was he was animated. He'd be doing things like he'd it's one. At one point, I think that was a preliminary exam, he's like touching, he's touching his heart and Rachel had had to get up on the stand and testify and Bob is touching his heart and who knows what that means.
I don't know.
But the judge says, hey, you know, the judge is quit quit doing that. And Bob says, well, I have a rational chess. You know. It's just he's just weird. And on another point to have some sort of eye surgery or something happened to his eyes. He comes into the courtroom with these big, huge glasses, and he's just
a strange character. He was. He was, he was very the very you know, of course, this is like the you know, he's on trial for his life, and so anybody's going to be a little strange in those circumstances. But to me, he was Bob the Cherry was almost like the guy that you would the guy they were talking about on the stand. He was a strange, strange guy.
Now, initially, his mother was bank rolling lawyers for him, as if if I understand the book correctly, and was supportive of her son, and so was his daughter Jessica. He didn't talk too much about the son as much. But when did that change and why that.
Support Well, it wasn't It just wasn't going, you know, it was. I willing to say this, I'm trying to think of how to put this. There was a gun, and Bob had always say, and this is a big deal, there was a gun that Bob had. Bob Playby never had a gun. And this is kind of convoluting. I'll make it as simple as possible. But a gun was found. Bob had somehow put a gun in a safe deposit box. The gun was found, and that changed the whole thing
for the family. Really, when they found this gun from the safe deposit box, nobody knew where it came from. They wasn't theirs, And I got the impression and that I think they thought they at that point they kind of said, you know, well he might have done something bad, you know, that was I think that was the main thing. And they found that when they found that gun. It was just you know, he had told Bob had told reporters he said the only gun he had was a
baby gun, and and they and that was that. And uh, I think that was about the time that the money ran out. Bob was now going to be back on his own, because that's when he started getting court appointed. What was the.
Exchange and the testimony of Rachel liked and I'm sure you looked over at at Bob to see the reaction. But what wasn't a dynamic like tell us about that?
It was? It was there was nothing to it. Rachel did in some ways, I'll say, Rachel did m I want to say he Uh, they didn't make they made really very little contact. I spoke about him patting his heart. That was when Rachel was on the stand. And but but no, but there was there was really nothing. Yeah, there was there was no contact Bob. Even Bob I said to me something like, I forget what it was.
This is during to in Wayne time, you have a preliminary exam before you go before judge orders at the trial where you have a prayer, witnesses testifying against and the judge decides that it's got enough a merit to go to trial. Well, during the preliminary exam, Rachel came in and testified, and I talked to Bob later on he said, oh, yeah, you know, Jesus too bad. Rachel's kind to put on weight and I feel bad for stuff. I thought, well, that has nothing to say, you know,
why do you say that kind of stuff. But that's when he was patting his heart, I think, and he said, oh I have a rash. But no, Rachel did a great job. I never looked at Bob at all, only do identify him.
Your correspondence is very interesting in this book, and you've included it. And you as who stated previously that he denied, denied, denied, So what did you get what Pearl of Wisdom did you get that you didn't know through all this research and everything that you sat through. In terms of evidence, what did you glean from it? What did you get from it.
From the whole the whole case, the overall take away from the.
Case, well, not from the interview with him, specifically.
From the interviews with him. Okay, again, I think I'm still struck. I think the one thing that always strikes me is consistency, because since thecy it's such an evasive thing. It's always, you know, especially in a crime, you're telling the same story over and over. I don't know anybody could could do that. I don't know how you do that. But I still am kind of struck how he just has the same story every time. This is what happened
is I had nothing to do with this. At the same time, the evidence is overwhelming, the lies are profound, the lies that he tells. It found that he's just like it seems like he's made to lie about the house. He's got a weird excuse about everything. You know. I'll
tell you something funny. When I first started doing this book, I talked to a guy I kind of know perfectly, and then the Detroit music community and he had told me he was a guy who was the manager of the Hard Luck Lounge, which is a bar that was in a property that Bob won't and he said that one time he met Bob at a bachelor party and Bob went into the men's room at the strip joint and pulls up some cocaine and asks the guy if he wants to do a line, and the guy says no, no, no,
And then he share was a weird character at that And then we get into this further into this case, and I think, oh, that's weird. Into the guy's the son of a judge. He's like the suburban you know, it's kind of Gato father too. He's you know, he's a really straight guy. Then we hear in testimony that Bob is buying like huge amounts of cocaine, and I thought this, you know, and I one day I said to Bob, I said, Bob, did you buy that cocaine?
He said, I never bought any cocaine. You know, it wouldn't have been the guy on the stands that he bought cocaine. Throng. It was going way back to when I talked to this initial witness, who by the way never testified that he told me that, and it struck me. It's so odd, you know. And then that that just to me in my head, I said, man, Bob the er it just keeps lying, you know. And so it's
very confusing. You've got a guy telling the same story over and over and over and over, and yet you watch you can catch him in a lie, just you know, slit sing because a very mixed bag.
Well it wasn't a pretty simple lie though, because I mean he trotted it out to as you talk about in the when the guy was wired, uh to Bedeaux or what it was that he had him wired, and so he was he had him on tapes saying over and over again like he was trying to trot it out in terms of oh I didn't do this. This guy misrepresented. I don't know why he did this. He's a crazy guy. He's a loose cannon. I mean, you know, it wasn't a version of what actually happened. It wasn't
anything like that. It was somehow on his own. This guy took something very innocent, completely wrong and then went and on his very own did something crazy. Isn't that how he sort of represented it?
On tape sort of yeah, yeah he did. Although what I got out of that was he, yeah, you're right and to me, And again I look at it and I think, well, he you know, the main thing is he's just he just continues to say, you know, if he knew how he said something like, hey, if I knew how crazy he was, I never would have gout involved with him things like that. But that makes sense.
And again, what what Basher told me at one point is he said, well, after all, I mean, who blames me for trying to have trying to put a hit out on the guy who killed my wife? You know a lot of people are you know, OK, that's fine. And I never said in judgment. I always would say, you know, I'd always say, uh huh, you know that kind of thing I wanted.
Isn't it part you mentioned in the story too that a woman gives uh I think Rachel, I believe from correct a book called The Sociopath next Door trying to explain Bob Ashira and his behavior, And isn't as part of this narcissistic thing that you know, this this importance that Bob has. Of course, someone killed his wife, so of course he wanted to avenge his wife's death now to kill this guy. And so it's always about, of course them. It's a self centered importance of these people, always.
Always. In fact, the prosecutors Office handed out that book Sociopath next door to the family, the victim family, Jane's family, and and and you know everybody that was They didn't hind. I don't believe they gave it to Rachel because I care for Rachel. But but yeah, it is. It always comes back to being about them. And I don't have much experience with sociopaths, so I don't really know. But yeah, he fits the You read that book and you realize that he fits it to a t. It's self absorbed.
And there's also something to this and the consistent consistency. He actually probably believes everything he says. You know, he could very I mean, that's why you have that consistency. He told himself the story, and associopath can just continue to convince himself of that this is actually the truth. I did not do that, I did not have anything to do with it.
That he did fail though.
That's the yes, that's the that is of course again that polygraph. You know, I don't know polygraphs can be beat. They can be they can get false positives. I don't put much stock in those, but yes, he did fail one. And and you know it was also weird. You know, you see the footage of him in the in the interviews after his wife was killed, and he's handling it
very strangely. You know, he talked about how she smoked pot and so on, and I think he had surmised as some some some I don't know that that was connected, as she had come in contact with shady characters, you know, buy him lead or something like that. But yeah, it was all very odd. But his demeanor in those those those interviews and initially were very strange. It's he's a little disconnected.
It's it's amazing too, with the access that you have with Rachel and Lehman in that the story they told and other people as well, that this story was so big that it was on the news, it was dominating the news, and that Rachel had this unfortunate experience of sitting there and watching this person that she was planning to move into a house shortly, that was enthralled.
With the man.
As you mentioned, I thought this guy was the cat's pajamas there. I thought it was a great guy. And now hearing that, thinking that he was divorced and that they were completely split, now hearing about oh, no, was my wife and I was happily married, and so it just crushed her. And so she had a completely different idea about who this man was and the kind of lies that he was telling her. And so it's a very interesting go ahead.
Yeah she was. I don't know that other people saw her as a sympathetic character. I did because I thought she was completely taken. I mean, and again I can't I think that didn't like her. That that BDSM thing where people I really turned people off for some reason. I don't understand. It's just you know. But but yeah, she was. I mean, she was a real person and she had these real feelings and uh and she was taken for a ride and she didn't she was she
I don't believe she ever really knew. I think again, he was misrepresenting the whole personal situation to her. There was divorced, where on the way to divorce, blah blah blah, And she believed him because she wanted to believe him.
So has he exhausted all his appeals. I mean, that would be a reason to keep consistent with his story as well.
Yeah, told us a bit about that these petitioned. He you know, he petitioned the court. You're generally, you're your first appeal is the ineffective counsel. And Bob's fairly smart guy, so he's going to know how what buttons to push and say, you know, I had an ineffective counsel and
and he you know, he said he didn't. They didn't bring in certain things that he wanted brought in, and there was a change of venue, which is very rare, and uh, and so on all the usual, all the usual first appeals, all the usual round of post conviction reliefs. So no, he's just beginning and the court is considering the court in this case would have to reverse itself essentially, and that's not going to happen. So he'll move up
the ladder and forget. There's probably three appeals levels that they'll have on PCR and post conviction relief and and so it was an interesting one. This was interesting because he actually took the stand in his in his you know, plea for post conviction relief and uh, and talked a lot about the case and again the consistency. And it was also unusual because one of his his defense is because both of his defense lawyers took the stand, but
he didn't give him effective couse. So you know, the circus continued, Yeah, that's amazing.
It's a you know, I just wanted to add one other thing. That again, it is very vivid in movie esque. When Steve Thibodeaux, who has gone to the police and again we talked about this don wannabe and he's talking to the FBI and Bob Basheer busts in and says, who are you talking to? He said, give me that phone. So he looks at it and he goes, oh cop. He says, look at this, it's a cop. What the hell you doing? And I figure, okay, the gig's up now, I mean, because you've written it that way, we don't
know what's going to go on. Tim took one of the guys and he was told, if you're talking to the cops, and he was super paranoid. He went to all his tenants and said, if you're talking to the cops, you have to let me know, not please let me know, you let me know. So he was freaked. He thought everybody was, you know, being wired, and some people were so he said, who is this and so oh Steve Thibodeau maybe not the guy, most deaf guy on his feet.
He talked his way out of it somehow, So you figure man again, very very soprano esque with that life and deaft situation, but incredible.
It seemed to me he was caught red handed there, right, And yeah, but no, I mean somehow, yeah, somehow Bob let that go. I don't know how even let it slide and just don't get that.
Yeah, it's incredible, but yeah, yeahs interesting story, Yes, fascinating story. So again I want to thank you for coming on and talking about this incredible story. For those that might want to contact you or find more about your other work or Facebook, you tell us how people might do that.
Well, let's see, you can go to www dot avalanche fi dot com and you can you know, and I always tell people, go, I don't want to not do this by some because you get less of a royalty and an Amazon, but you know, the book is available at Amazon. You can get all four of my true crime books there. These are all published by Penguins Berkeley imprint through crime imprint and let's see you can follow me on Twitter at pen vengeance and so between that. If anybody wants to get hold of me, they got
a great case they think would be cool. I always like to hear that kind of stuff.
Well, it's been a real pleasure Steve talking about murder in gross Point Park, privileged adultery and the killing of Jane vishera very very incredible and very entertaining and again quite a yarn that you've picked there for us for our enjoyment this evening. Thank you very much, Steve. You have a great evening and hope to talk to you again soon.
Okay, I appreciate it. Good talking with you.
Thank you, good night, good night
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