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You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer.
The Nightstalker, Bck.
Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author.
Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
In an incredible six year investigation, true crime writer and investigative journalist David mclath tells the unbelievable story of one of the most prolific predators in American history. Wayne Chapman, admitted to abusing one hundred children over an eight year span from sixty seven to seventy six. What the world could never have known is that Chapman did not act alone.
He worked in concert with other serial predators. Unbeknownst to parents and law enforcement, Chapman was suspected in multiple child murders and was a completely fixated abuser. McGrath lives a veil on Wayne Chapman and a child sex ring that operated in the area at the time. In this incredible true story. The book that were featuring this evening is Monster The Life and Crimes of Wayne Chapman, with my special guest journalist and author David McGrath. Welcome to the program,
and thank you for this interview. David McGrath.
Thank you so much, Dan, Thank you for giving me the opportunity to shed some light on a story that's outside of our painful people, incredibly underreported social Thank you.
Thank you so much. This is in an extraordinary tale, extraordinary investigation. Let's get to how you came to this. You write that one night you were rough watching TV and you saw a documentary on HBO entitled Have You Seen Andy? By Melanie Perkins mcgloblin. Tell us what this documentary did for you, what it triggered, and what was its content? Tell us about this event.
Sure, I had grown up in the Boston area, and I had always been interested in books and going to the library every day, and that was sort of my seven and you know, a sort of abusive household, which is not uncommon for the time. And I always wanted to do a book, and like most authors, my my main problem was what was what suffect would I do it on?
You know?
And I saw this documentary late at night during the night when I was battling a brutal head cold, one of those you know, head and advice can't sleep kind of night. My wife was pregnant, so she was having a rough time getting asleep, and we were both just kind of await And you know, I saw the documentary that Melanie Perkins had made about her friend Andy, and you know, this young boy disappeared from a pool and Laurens, Massachusetts, which was, you know, twenty five thirty minutes from where
I grew up. You know, this man who was the main suspect in the case had also been the main suspect and some other disappearances that were a little closer to home for me, and you know, I was just struck down by this man's you know, it was really his booking photo. I couldn't get past the fact of his vacant sort of look, just the the out or lack of humanity in this man's face. And I couldn't get over it. You know, I fell asleep around four thirty five that morning. I was up, you know, very
early googling, uh, you know, pictures of this man. And you know, at first day, I just said to myself, you know, find out everything that you can know that's to be known about this man. And you know that sort of set off that very day too. And I had no idea that I would ever put a word, you know, on paper about anything to do with Wayne Chapman. But I knew that any human beings whoever interacted with him had any sort of insight into him. You know,
I needed to know. And I you know, these are while your show is so popular and true crime shows, they're often you know, the most popular podcasts, you know, on Apple or wherever is really because people need to know why. I think that's assassination with kids like this, just because they just need to know why. And I'm no different. I just needed to know why and how
and how Wayne Chapman came to be. And you know, that was twenty thirteen, and here we are, you know, in late twenty twenty one, and you know, the book's ready to be to come out and I still't feel like, damn this, There is so much more to know. But that's the genesis of this book.
You write that once you knew you had to write this book, once you felt compelled, you had to start at the very beginning, and you started in Jamestown, New York, and visited Wayne Chapman's childhood home. What did you find out about Wayne Chapman and his childhood Tell.
Us what you found well.
I initially took off to Jamestown in late twenty thirteen and worked with a woman at the Historical Society named Afley Centrik, who was incredibly helpful pointing me in the right direction. And you know, when I got there, I had grown up in the city, you know, and housing projects not far in Sunray Park in Boston. I had never really been to upstate New north and I found it to be a town that, you know, nothing really
happened in, you know. I would ask people on the street, you know, what happens here in Jamestown, and the most prevailing news it was nothing. It's just a random town that, you know, even the people who live here, it's completely forgettable. But you know, I had the preconceived notion that Chapman would come from some sort of you know, incestuous, you know, Texas Temsaw massacre type family, you know, and that really
wasn't the case. Much like myself, his father was a military man who had been injured in Guadalcanal and had fought valiantly and been recognized for that by in the United States and Marine Corps. His father was a member of the First Marine Division, which my father was a member of, So you know, there was nothing in his background with his parents that would indicate that he was ever sexually abused. Wayne Chapman was the first born son
to our her and Elizabeth's Chapman. Elizabeth was a church going lady who came from a good family who were well known in town. Both the parents did have some issues.
With alcohol and drugs.
The mother was into chills sleeping kills specifically, and the brothers would talk about that later as her being sort of disengaged from the family and ours. There was a drinker who spent a lot of his days at the local VSW post around other veterans from World War Two. Would often make his boys, you know, sit in the car and wait while he got drunk all day. But there were again, there was nothing I could find, and other people you know, who I respect in this investigation
believe that Wayne Chapman was absolutely sexually abused. And while I don't discount that, I could never coroborate that, so I didn't put that in the book. What I did find is that Wayne was born in nineteen forty seven. His parents were married not too soon after, so it was sort of a shotgun wedding. And you know, Wayne started defending really young. I mean four or five years old.
He's already touching little boys in the classroom. He's already sort of getting little boys into the woods and doing his best to seduce other young children. He's you know, asking kids about their bodies. He's getting involved in pornography, finding his father's playboys and hustler magazines and showing them
around the neighborhood to neighbors. Sort Of right off the bat, Wayne Chapman is already thinking down the lines of sexual sort of behavior that you know, most children, you know, ninety nine point nine defended children have no idea what that's even about, you know. So he was exposed to that very young, and he would often state that some classmates of his had sort of got him in the woods and made him undressed, and that sort of got him thinking along that track. But I could never cooperate
that ever either. You know, he came from his relatively normal family. His father was you know, he organized neighborhood watches He was a big member of the veteran community in Jamestown. He was very active in the church. His father was the president of the congregation up there. At one point, Wayne was an Authar boy. He was named the Youth of the Year in nineteen sixty four by his pastor. He was a perfect attendance and Sunday school
type of guy. But what Waye could have never known was that his parents did have some concerns over his behavior as it related to sexual relations with his classmates. He was taking animals into the woods and starving cats, hanging them from trees. He was wetting the bed, and his father was getting, you know, extremely angry that when he was home off the road from his job as a long haul trucker, Wayne would often be up at
night because he pied the bed, didn't you know. He's pointed to a specific situation later on where his father threw him out in the snow, And anybody who knows anything about that state of New York knows that, you know, it snows out there in July. I mean it's brutal up there.
And.
His father would make him stand in snowpiles in the middle of the winter naked you know. And again, you know, my preconceived notion was that I was going to find that Wayne Chaplin was nurtured to be one of the worst pedophiles in American history, and I could just never cooperate that Dan, And in my opinion, you know, Wayne Chapman was a born pedophile. It was a sexual preference for young children, and that started at a very young age. And it was like a snowball as it is, it
just starts to manifesting the fantasy's happened. He acts out on them, and they just get worse and mores. His time goes on.
Dan tell us about so his high school life, like what was it characterized by? What was his Was he an intelligent guy? Was he a sociable guy. Did he have a lot of friends? Was he the athletic?
What was his short So Chapman had absolutely no friends. In fact, he paid no attention to his personal hygiene, which was manifest lator in life with losing jobs and actually people, you know, being able to iv him through his poor hygiene. But the classmates that I could speak to from the late nineteen sixties who were still around, nobody remembered Wayne Chapman. They knew that they had a man who came from their high school, from their town who was a suspect in multiple child murderers, and it
was with a child molester. But nobody could tell me anything about Wayne Chapman. Nobody knew him because brothers. It was a little different, and he could have three brothers that came along who you know, grew up in the same household, same father, same parents, didn't go on to molest children. So Waene Chapman was, you know, he was somebody who was completely forgettable outside of the bad hygiene and the sort of vacant look that he had that
people remembered forever and ever. The most common thread with anybody who's ever met Wayne Chapman that I was able to speak to for this book, whether it be detectives, other offenders, medical staff at statemental hospitals, or people who knew him in Jamestown, would tell you that the guy just was not there. He was a black hole. He
was completely vacant in his eyes. He was completely sick faded from a very young age and one thing which was stocking and getting children isolated so he'd commit sexual assault. And that was he was a pre programmed machine. Often most pedophiles are, you know, they're circumstantial pedophiles where if they have the opportunity to do it. You know, Wayne Chapman was a precedential pedophile and from a young age that manifested and he had no social life. He was
not involved in sports. His father was the big car guy. He would often, you know, bring his vehicle out into the parking lot and sort of do car shows. Outside of these I was in Jamestown and one would have where they grew up, which was a quiet street, very close neighbors. He would be tinkering with that car all day. Wayne never had any interest in working with his father, and like most boys do, and and you know, by fifteen sixteen, Wayne was already crossing into the Canadian border
to indulge in CD sect shops and child pornography. He was already very big into the pornography trade that was sort of underground in Buffalo, in Toronto. And you know, I was able to collaborate a little bit of that with people up in Jamestown. You know, I had a journal and a journalism professor once who told me, you know, it's the best way to get information is to go out there and talk to people on the street. If it's a one on one conversation, people are apt to
tell you much more. Emails have pay per trails, text messages have pay per trails. The conversation that you have with people on the street is only known to the people who were there, And that turned out to be extremely fruitful for me because people talked to me a lot about the general vibe of that area in the nineteen sixties is that he could really indulge in child pornography over the border in Canada, and Chapman later in life would absolutely collaborate that and say he was part
at that burdening, you know, child pornography consumption and production, very early in life in Canada, very close to where he grew up. So that's already where he was sixty eight at Dan When.
Does he run a foul of a law? You say, we quit school when he was sixteen, and then you say he's crossing over the border. He's he's at the very lower rung of this pornography child pornography distribution. When does he run a flower over law? What happens when he's eighteen, So nineteen.
Sixty seven, he's in Pennsylvania. And initially in this investigation, Dan, I thought that this guy would wake up in the morning and just say a dive date and his head there. But you know, as I've learned later on, as the year has gone by into my work with Chapman, is that nothing was by accident. And I hope your audience and the fans out if they read the book and listen to this, that nothing that happens here is by accident.
Chapman must have known somebody in Pennsylvania. He must have he must have had some sort of connection to the Pennsylvania area in Oil City specifically, because his first offense happens in nineteen sixty seven, and he met a boy the day prior, and he's already beginning to begin with his ruses, you know, the lost God, the promising of work. And you know, for whatever reason, he doesn't actually assault the boy the day that he meets him. My suspicion
is that he was stalking him. He Chapman would pick out a victim, none of these victims or by accident, and he would sixth date on that victim, and he would figure out a way to isolate that boy away from his friend group. He tells a little boy that in August, the sixties out, and he tells a little boy, hey, listen, meet me here tomorrow. I have a paper out, you know, and you'll get your work and so you can make
some money. So Chatman stayed there overnight. He actually sleeps very close to where he ends up s actually stopping the boy in the woods in real city. And August night, you know, Wayne Chatman is sleeping in his van overnight with no ac so he's can rape a boy in the morning anyways, So he keeps the boy into the woods. You know, he's asking from pointed sexual questions. At some point, you know, this boy realizes, you know, there's no job.
You know, it's gonna be no job interview. Chapman ends up he asked the little boys and pointed sexual questions and that's enough to get him a corruption charge on the madels of minors, and the boy ends up running away contacting police. Chaman doesn't even make an attempt to declaim that he didn't do anything. At that point in
his life, he was very open with police. And you know, I don't know because then and you know, had an IQ sometimes with the top out at around eighty if he just couldn't grasp the seriousness of the crimes, because in sixty seven, you know, he ends up skating on that. In nineteen seventy one, he's back in Pennsylvania, and this time he has a teen little boy in Smithport, which is not too far away. It's less than an hour
away from Monos City. You know, again, I don't think it's by accident that he ends up in Smith's Port, and he had to have had some connection that area and seen the boy at a certain point. This time, he took the boy out to the wooded area and he has his camera with him. So I think at this point in nineteen seventy one, not only is Wayne Chapman molesting little boys, but he's also a low level
child pornography producer. Because with now the camera comes into it where he's treating peaches of boys, boys are making statements to police. You know, he gets sexual to assault me and he was taking pitchs is at the same time, and aneteen seventy one assault, he ends up actually going all the way with this assault, and you know, the little boy ends up contacting police and describing the vehicle
that Wayne Chapman was in again. Wayne Fatman is is very open with police, and he ends up getting there one two year sentence and he ends up doing one year and five months in the workhouse. Chapman's worked with death in that workhouse. He's the only sex offender in the book. I have a picture of the handwritten register when Wayne Chatman entered the workhouse. In He's in there with people who, you know, assaulting batteries, you know, people
who have not paid their child support. Of all the pages that I could find, Wayne Chatman was the only person who's the good of sex then. So it didn't go well for him in there, and he had tactic guys and they told him let him go out just straight, you know, Scott messing around with little kids, you know, get married, show the world that you can live like a normal person, because this isn't working for you. Chapman's
called a lot of names in the work house. He's you know, old schools sort of movie like prison where you're printing license plates and moving rocks. And he doesn't like it. And you know, for him, you know, somebody as weak as him in prison is not a good place for him. In late nineteen sixties. They didn't have a special management in the name. You know, you were in there and you were in the general population, and it is going to be hard for you even then as a sex offender can.
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Now I was in the workhouse. He realizes now that this is the kind of place he doesn't want to be. He gets out. Does he take this guard's advice? And if he does, what happens? Yeah?
So he does, and he gets married to a woman named Alice who is forty three years allt bit the time, and they end up in Florida for a very short period of time. And of course, Wayne Chapman, you know, had no inferterent hunter sexual relationships with women. He was
a six vated pedophile who is homosexual. And you know, the main selling point with Alice is that she has two sons eleven and fourteen years old, who Wayne Chapman wanted to test himself to see if he could live amongst children, while you know, I'm not committing the senses, and I'm not sure that Alice any idea Jeff Truce who was inviting into her house, because it wasn't long before Wayne sexually assaulted both boys. The boys didn't obviously
like Wayne. They didn't believe that, you know, this guy was a good role model or good stepfather, as you would imagine. And things don't really go well for Wayne down in Florida, and the boys never came forward. There was no police reports ever filed. There was no police
report ever filed by the mother. Wayne Choman himself admitted later on to molesting both of the boys, and incredibly enough, Dan you know his late as twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, Alice still kept in touch with Wayne and it's one of those things that's a convoluted story with a million convoluted sci fi stories in it here. And I could never quite figure out why Alice continued to support Wayne you through, you know, five decades after he had admitted
readily that he molested her to sons. It's just one of those things in the story where I just I'll never quite get a grasp on on just what was going on there, and as far as I could find, and I worked hard, you know, to find more victims in Florida, I couldn't find any missing boys during that time reign and any other victims outside of the two boys. So his small short time in Florida comes to an end and he's back up in early nineteen seventy two.
He's he's back the King's count and thinking about his next move. But even mains matters throughout his life. Gueen Chapman's never doctorvorced and he was considered on paper anyway to the Massachusetts Department of Corrections as as a married man did.
Now in your book, you talk about Providence and you talk about some crimes starting in Labor Day weekend nineteen seventy five. Is what are some of these crimes, and what is it about these crimes that you've included them here? And their connection to Wayne Chapman.
Sure, well, the thing was Wayne Chapman. There's two things that I really needed to figure out in this book. Was just how a man from upstate New York Dan with no connection to Rhode Island, which is, you know, five hundred miles away, how he ends up there. You know, at first I thought maybe this was you know, again he's throwing you know, he's thrown dots.
At the map.
But Wayne Chapman had some connection to Providence, Rhode Island in the New England area. Then I believe the connection was is that Providence was a hub DAN for the production of child pornogracy. And in fact, to this very day, if you walk around the city of Providence, you will find the most ce sort of sets ups that exist
on almost every street corner. And it all ties back to a man who is part of a mob in those days called Ken Guarino, and he's stopp a company in the late seventies called Capital Video, and that was sort of the early beginnings of CD steck shops in the city of Providence that had existed only in the gay underground at the time, so I believe that was really where Chapman got connected to the city of Providence and why he ended up living some five minutes from
where I sit right now. Anyways, there's some crimes when Chapman got here, I believe in late nineteen seventy two, although he was quite quiet for a long time, the missing boys began almost immediately, and the connection to somebody like the nineteen seventy five crime was Wayne Chapman had good friends in the state of Meed, which is a northern state closer to you, but still part of the New England sort of cluster here, and a boy went
missing in nineteen seventy five named Kurt Newton. And Wayne Chapman had taught to Albert Mintz, who was a very very he in this book, with very clear memories of
everything that had happened decades ago. And he had told me about a time when Wayne Chapman explained to him by a boy that he took in name, and he explained the waterfall that he took the boy at, and the boy was at a campground, and just like every other part of this book, Dan I went up there and I needed to walk the streets and see the areas and where Wayne Chapman described he took this little boy with a waterfall that was some three hundred yards
from the campground where Can't Kurt new and disappeared and they never found his body, They never found the shred of him stay just this tricycle. It remains unsolved to this day. And it just struck me. Dan I put it in the book, had I not gone there and seen the.
Sight.
And Chapman he lived these crimes forever and ever, and he remembered every last bit of every place that he took a boy, and that would become important as time went on. And it just struck me, as I wrote in booked in that when I went to that area, I mean, it was just from the police report to what my eyes were seeing was just absolutely perfect in the level of detail. And Chapman was not in the business of admitting to crimes that he didn't do. He was not a bright man. Eighty was where his IQ
talked out. He was not a master criminal. He was not the type of guy who was going to admit to crimes to throw police off. He didn't have that type of mental capability. So I think that the Kurt Newton disappearance, Wayne Chatman very well may have confessed to that, and much like the other cases, incredibly enough, it's just not enough evidence to ever tie him to physically.
You talk about the same for Douglas Chapman from Alfred Game as well, and you get to Alee Savoy, a ten year old in Lavie, Massachusetts, and again Levere location as well, isn't.
It yeple Savoy disappears in April of nineteen seventy four, victimology of a man like Wayne Chapman and Nathaniel bar Jona, very closely dark features, olive skin. Lisa Voy sharing suits at the racetrack Suffolk Downs, which exists in Revere, two miles away from where the Massachusetts State Police and the FBI busted incredibly large sex ring where boys between the ages of eight and seventeen were being sold to sex
in nineteen seventy seven. The police reports that they believe that the sex ring had been going on since the late nineteen sixties. So you're talking about a ring that's maybe ten years old, and you know the Savoy story, much like Lewisman, it's just not a story that is ever covered anywhere in any depths, and nothing of this boy was never found, not a shoe, not a not a shirt, anything. And you know, the public outcry for this case is just I mean, it's just buried. You know,
it's nowhere. And I included this Savoy disappearance in the book because I think it's an important snapshot of the time. This is what was happening in the nineteen seventies in Massachusetts. Boys were disappearing at an incredible rate, and you had men like Miss Daniel Barjona, Wayne Chapman, Charles Pearce is a Necroceliac carnival worker who was in and out of
town all the time we had grown up here. They were acting together, and then you have this sex ring that's operating two point four miles away somewhere least avoid disappears off the face of the earth forever. And I think it's an interesting snapshot of the time. But I could never find any evidence to link Li Savoy to the Revere of deck Spring or make Dayne Statman or Barjona.
I think it's interesting to note that this is what was happening in the town in just a month earlier, Dan, at Suffolk Downs, a little boy was sexually assaulted right on the right on the grounds of the racetrack. He was pulled into a bathroom hand over his mouth, and they tried, they tried to take that child and abduct
that child, but he was able to get away. So it was happening all the time, Dan, And it's just it's just interesting how it's lost to history now and it's lost just the people who lived through it.
You mentioned Nathaniel Barjona, and that's not his real name. Tell us his real name, and then tell us about Nathaniel Barjona.
Barjonah was different than Chapman because he was a completely sadistic who got off on terrorizing his victims. Frankly, and it was different than Chapman. This guy was smart. He was a master psychopath who could I mean some of the feasts that he pulled off, manipulating children and many creating victims. It was just incredible.
Dan.
He was born David Brown in nineteen fifty seven Worcester, which is a western part of the state. Barjona was seven years old. He choked to class me twelve years old. He tried to kill two little boys in a cemetery who had been picking on him in the neighborhood. He was known as sort of their neighborhood weird kid. Came from a decent family, you know. His father and his mother voted on him as his father would eventually become a big distance but his mother, until the day she died,
really enabled him. His brother and his sister went on to be defense contractors who owned multiple properties in different states. They were very successful people. They often thought that miss Aniel Barjona David Brown was switched at birth. They really didn't believe that he was their brother. He began a sending set a young man just like Wayne Chapman and those two. You know, listen this the way these two
connected with each other is up for discussion. I know that a PhD named John Asby who I don't in any way. She performed discount his writing. He wrote the Definitive series on Barjona, and it was always his assertion that Barjona and Wayne Chapman met Stocking Kids together sometime
in the nineteen seventies. I could never collaborate satisfact, you know, I looking for a picture or some sort of writing between the two which could collaborate that so I could put it in the book, but I just could never find that Dan. But what I could find was Wayne Chapman had admitted to committing crimes in miss Andrew Barjona's town of Webstern, Massachusetts. They both used the same mo
which was they just as police officers. And those two had been writing letters back and forth well before Bridgewater. And you know, I'm gonna we're jumping ahead here, and they actually stayed contact with each other. When Barjona was released from Bridgewater in nineteen ninety one and went to Great Falls in Montana, they still too, stayed in contact with each other right up until the end of Barjona's
life in two thousand and eight. And I do believe that there was a major connection between the two before prison, and they operated together.
Let's let's get to what happens to Barjona and his sentence and a sexually dangerous designation, and you can explain that that's it's a unique Massachusetts edict.
So nineteen seventy seven, Barjoni had his kids coming out of a movie theater and shoes by the Massachusetts he meets the boys nearly to death. It was to death, and he dumped one one body test another body in the trunk of the vehicle, which was his mother's vehicle. The little boy who we dunked came back to and called the police and was able to get an accurate description of the vehicle. Bar Jonah was already known to police.
Just a week after graduating high school, Dan he drives up to Connecticut shakes a little girl who he believed to be a little boy who had a short haircut. Once he realized that he had a little boy, he beat that little girl so bad that she desiccated. She urinated all over his mother's car. That little girl, even five decades later, Dan I was able to get in touch with her, and she couldn't even speak Barjona's name. I mean, you just wouldn't believe the damage this man
did to that little girl. And so he didn't get any time for the Assaulophone who was eighteen right after high school. Just a couple of years later, he's in Shrewsbury. He dumps the little boy's body. He contacts police and gives an accurate description of the vehicle. Barzona is caught
a very short time later. He's given an eighteen to twenty years sentence in nineteen seventy seven, and he actually goes to Walpole Prison first, he goes to Big Boy Prison and he finds it to be a terrible experience. In that time frame, Dan he's writing letters to Wayne Chapman and he's already in Bridgewater and Chapman is telling him, You've got to figure out a way to get over here. It's much better. There's other people here who we know
from the outside. It's obviously a much safer place. You're
amongst sort of your tribe. And Barjonah does get that sexually dangerous designation, which is a Massachusetts edict that you know, in the layest terms possible I can put it is, if you have no time left on your sentence, but you're designated as a sexually dangerous person from the state of Massachusetts, you can essentially be committed to a state hospital for the rest of your life, and you're allowed to petition every year to get out, which Wayne Chapman
and Blad Jonah did and were denied many, many, many times, but of course eventually got out. But you know, in the layest terms possible I can put it is, they can keep you before basically as long as you have that designation. And you know at the time by Jonah and Chapman wanted that designation so they could get out of Big Boy Prison. But as time went on, Dan, they worked really hard to shed that so they could get out.
Wayne Chapman is convicted of you say, just not the mince worst but lesser charges than Barjona. How does he get this again? How does he get the sexually dangerous designation? And how does he end up in Bridgewater? And then when does Jonas? When is Barjona? And how was he able to get into Bridgewater?
Well, I guess if we're your first part of your question, we'd have to back up a little bit. You know, Chapman is very active. In nineteen seventy four and seventy five, he takes two boys in Seaconk, Massachusetts, which is a south coast town of Boston, and he rates them, gets away with that. The boys report it, they can never
find a suspect. It's a crime that is unsolved. Then he is in Lawrence, Massachusetts, another town that I believe that he had connections, and that is a very tough neighborhood where the Project kids and you do not go into that neighborhood and just walk around and look for victims.
You could be beaten back with the little ease. And I believe Wayne Chapman had major connections to Laurence See takes two boys in nineteen seventy five in the summer and isolates them in the woods, and you know, a really heroic point of the story here, Dan is that he actually fixated on one of the boys and tried to isolate one of them apart from each other. And they wouldn't leave each other because they knew that had
they been left alone, Wayne Chapman might kill them. And one boy actually got raped, you know, so he couldn't so he wouldn't leave his friend. It was an incredibly emotional, heroic part of the story to write, frankly, and you know, around that time, I believe is the first time I actually shelled the book and just said I couldn't do this. But anyway, that's just a sidebar. In seventy five, he commits those two rapes, and then the very next year,
in August in nineteen seventy six, Andy Puuklesy disappears. Wayne Chapman has spotted at the pool that day by multiple witnesses. Once they have Wayne Chapman's booking photo and he's a suspect in the Pucolice's disappearance. A detective in Lawrence remembers the prior summer and says, I have two rapes that are unsolved. Maybe I should show these boys Wayne Chapman's bookings photo, and once he does that, they pick him
out of the lineup right away. So Wayne Chapman ultimately ends up in Bridgewater for the rapes of both boys in nineteen seventy seven in all excuse me, seventy five August and lawns. And that's how he gets is sexually dangerous designation. And that's how she's playing Bridgewater for the fence of fifteen to thirty years and then civilly committed for one day to life, which is how they always
do it. I suggest the second part of your question, Dan, But that's how Chapman gets the sexually dangus designation.
Mm hmm.
So now these you contend, and this speak contends that Barjona and Wayne Chapman knew each other previously to their stay in Bridgewater. Uh, tell us about Bridgewater and who else joins these two in Bridgewater. Sure.
Well. I try to intertwine some personal stories in the book, and Bridgewater is sort of a personal story for me. It's a place where, you know, when my father was in the picture, when I was a kid, we would always fish behind the prison there in Bridgewater, and I would always, you know, I would always sit there in Marvel as a young kid, at the big towers and the gates and the and there's a it's on a sort of a large wooded area which is well known
for the paranormal activity. It's what I called the Bridgewater Triangle, which is quite famous in paranormal circles. I feel like every time I go by there, there's filming something out there from pose under book or movie. But yeah, so I would always be back there, and I remember, quite succinctly, as I write in the book, my father told me, you know, you know, it's creepy out here, but the
real creeps are in there, man. So and I always became I was always pretty fascinated with that area because you have, you know, a sub you have a correctional facility, and then you have the Bridgewater treatment centers that sexually.
Dangerous and.
Eventually U bar Jonah and Wayne Chapman or behind the wall together. They're joined by another man named Charles Pearce, who I contend as well was quite active with Barjona and Chapman in the outside world before Bridgewater, and the place has a very sordid history. Dan It was a subject of a documentary in the late nineteen sixties that documented some really rough treatment of inmates in a place
that needed to be cleaned up and reformed. Massachusetts filed an injunction making sure that that documentary was actually never released. It wasn't even released until the nineteen nineties. And the deplorable conditions that people had to live under in the nineteen sixties and seventies there was. It's quite galling when you see it.
Now.
The place has been cleaned up, very state of the art, but at the time dan it was a place that wasn't really focused rehabilitation. There were furloughs, there was staff, you know, there was rumors of staff sort of hooking up then made. There was family days that they would have at the sex offender treatment center, where you know, there'd be rides and sex offenders, you know, working those
rides with people's families. I mean, there's so many bizarre stories that came out of there, and it's sort of a central part of the book is that instead of getting treatment and maybe trying to get these guys right, what they were really doing was getting their PhDs and how to be cases. You know, Bargona, Pierce, Wayne Chapman, Richard Paluzzo, who was the organizer of the nineteen seventy seven Revere ring was there. Frank Gamiano, who was a
and I realize I'm throwing characters at you fast. I apologize, but there's just so many of them. Who is a prolific hell pornographer who was a major part of the sex rings in there. You had Thomas Tripp who was a serial rapist from this area. I mean, it was
really a who's who of creditors behind those walls. And Charles Pearce would school Nathaniel Bartona and Wayne Chapman to make sure that if they ever got a chance to get outside the walls again, but they weren't open with police and they denied everything and make sure that there's no body. And those guys really took that to Hyppan, I mean, for the rest of their lives. After nineteen seventy seven, Wayne Chapman never admitted again to another crime. This is a man who was open with police about
just about everything that he had done. And for that from that day on, he had never been to Lauren, He had never committed a crime. He went completely radio silent. And it was that PhD that he got that really kind of stopped us from making any headway into any more of these cases. And when Barjona eventually got out, he took all of that to heart because he made sure that when he committed another crime, there was nobody.
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ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire. Now, you just talked about Charles Pierce scolding Barjona and Wayne Chapman and giving them the kind of advice that there's no body, there's no crime and no crime, no time. So what happens outside of the prison one day the protest all about, and what's the connection to those three amigos in the treatment center.
So after the Revere sex case had really blown up nationally in nineteen seventy seven, twenty four men were indicted and very few got prison time, and I'm sure we'll talk about it, but the sort of the local gay underground newspapers had really taken up the case. There was a writer named David Brill, who was a fantastic writer who you know, I disagree with, and I think I
say this in the book. I disagree with just about every bit of his assertions, but he had really taken up the cases for the Revere sex ring and basically stated that it was a witch hunt against gay men, that the men really didn't know each other. And that's all complete and utter misinformation, Dans. These men knew each other quite well. All of these boys that were involved in the sex ring where kids just like myself. They were underprivileged kids that didn't have fathers. Some of them
have came right from steek custody. I mean, these guys were doing, you know, some of the most despicable things that you get or think of, and for whatever reason, the local sort of gay underground in New England had
taken up for them. And wrote a series of articles about how it was just essentially a hit job on the gay community, and the men who were involved, you know, sort of on the periphery, were starting to organize a little bit, and you know, in nineteen eighty three, protest erupted outside of Bridgewater because a lot of the men who were involved in that Revere sex case behind those walls, like Richard Paluzzo, who was really the main perpetrator and
mastermind behind it, and bar Jona and Chapman had actually watched that protest from the day room there in Bridgewater, and it was sort of the early beginnings of you know, what we would know as Man Block. The National American lam Boy Love Association NAMBLUFFS started because of the sort of thought that gay men were being you know, targeted for criminal cases that weren't really there. And that's really
where the formation of MAMBLA began. And there was a man there who claimed to have been there, who would show up someday in the nineteen nineties in Great Falls, Montana, you know, a man named Keith Bowman, who you know was known to Massachusetts at that time and was really starting to organize people, you know, against law enforcement and starting to sort of galvanize the gay community into you know, hey, you know we're being uncerely targeted by law enforcement and
we need to sort of gather together and fight back.
Right, So what happens from this obviously what happens from this protest, but more about the connection with Nambla and these two people, these three people in Ridgewater and all of the fenders in Bridgewater.
Sure, so these men were highly connected to and I sort of draw the connection between these men and an area in Boston called the Combat Zone, which is a ceedy sort of district of Boston that still exists to this day. That was a haven for navy sailors from the local Childtown Navy Yard that need shift through World War Two. And this was a haven for adult theaters and you know, adult bookstores where gay men would congregate. And I spent a tremendous amount of time being in
the Combat Zone in the research for this book. And you know, through all of the times I was interviewing people, and I never knew if I was talking to people who were directly involved, if I was talking to people who were actually you know, friends with these people and might have even party and some of this stuff, and so I had to be very careful on how I talked to them. And really the beginnings of this ring
was sort of fortified right there. And those uh and those adult cinemas and sex shops and where gay men would congregate and and and you know, do sexual activities with each other. And it was really a haven for the trade of cild pornography. It's where they would get together and trade pictures, talk about how they produced it, and you know, ask each other to get them certain types of pictures. And it's it's really an incredible, uh,
you know, snapshot of the time. And you know, there was a priest, a man who would eventually become the figurehead for the Boston Elope spotlight investigation, which became a national news story on the Catholic church. And this man was Paul Stanley, and he was very well known to the combat zone. He would often be outside bars cinema as preaching about, you know, how men and boys should be able to you know, partake in that specific type
of love with each other. And he really galvanized the gay community to you know, think that this was somehow a righteous thing. And and Shanley would end up going away for a very long time for lots of molestation cases against young boys. But he was heavily involved in
those days. And these protesters were you know, more often more likely than not, you know, they had known by Jonah and Chapman and and Paluzzo and the like outside of those walls, and the connection between them is, you know, it's it's hard to overlook, Dan, it's hard to overlook the fact that these these guys activities in existence might have you know, created that group that would go on to you know, destroy a lot more lives in really sort of their legacy would live on outside of those
prison walls in the manifestation of other boys being abused. And it was right there, Dan, it was right there in Bridgewater at that protest where the Namblot group decided to form. And it's just an incredible offshoot to the story.
It really is.
Let's get back to one of the real big characters in this book and heroic figures, is this Albert Mintz and also the case of we because this is a central part of the book, as well as the Andy Bugluci case itself. And you talk about later in the book about a traffic stop in Waterloo with this mints and the evidence that's gathered at that time. So go back and let's talk about Lawrence and Andy gid loosely the climb and then this mince, the confession and the traffic stop.
Sure, so Plici goes missing on twenty on August nineteen seventy six, his girlfriend, his little sort of childhood girlfriend, a woman named Melanie Kirk, and ends up going home. Andy says he wants to stay at the pool around five point thirty, between five thirty and five forty five pm. The last person to see him was a lifeguard, and eventually the lifeguard fingered Wayne Chapman as the man who was the last person to be seen with Andy Perglisi.
Now Beclisis had been being stocked at that pool for you know, God knows how long. Chapman had been there the year prior and was convicted eventually have two rapes the year prior so, and Charlie Pierce was a worked at a Woolworth store with his in town. So Charles Pearce is well known to the area. He knew the pool quite well, and I believe Charles Pearce was with him on that day and might have helped him move that body, because again, you know, Wayne Chatman was not
a smart criminal. So the last person to be seen with Andy Paglici is Charles Pearce excuse me, as Wayne Chapman. The Andy has taken out into the woods with Wayne Chapman and his four year old friend. So Andy had a four year old boy with him at the time, and the four year old boy would come in years later and talk of the experience that he saw. Last saw Andy as he was running away, because Andy of
course told him get out of here. You know, I think Andy was starting to understand that this was not you know, somebody who was looking for a lost dog who needed help, because that was the guys that he used. You know, this man has been all over the pool that day asking little kids to help him look for a lost dog, and everybody said no, but Andy Piblici.
The little boy had started to run, and when he turned back after cresting a hill, he saw Andy under a large rock with two other men standing over him. And I believe that other man with Charles Pears because by Joan as he had been there. As I write in the book, he's a totally recognizable figure, he's three hundred pounds, he has a straggling beard, he has a different colored eyes, which is completely noticeable. Damn, anybody would have been able to pick him out had he been there.
And anybody who googles a pitchle of bar Jonah will certainly understand that right away that he's incredibly recognizable. Charles Pears and Chapman are really not that recognizable. And Chapman walked with a little bit of a limp. He had a scar over his right eye, he didn't pay a lot of attention in his hygiene. He had sort of greasy hair. But these guys were just sort of running the mill guys. So the last person to see Andy
Perglissi alive was his four year old friend. Now, of course, they mobilized the full breath of Larren's police dependent once they realized that Andy's missing, and I mean green Berets came in on the ten Special Forces Group, which was located at Fort Devons. They mobilized their entire unit. This unit had just been fighting in Vietnam, they'd just done multiple deployments to Salt East Asia, and here they are out.
They don't look into the little boy Unfortunately, Andy's body was never found and the only good suspect they had in the case was Wayne Sadman and Laurence police had focused a little bit, in my opinion, and that suspect a little bit too much on the family, including his mother face. She was going through a little bit of drama with her boyfriend at the time. His father lived outside of the home, and it was a typical case in my opinion of the granger of Dutch in retrospect.
And you know, forty years later, sixty years later, here we are still know a sign of Andy Paglici. So what happens is Chapman leaves that day and Andy had been wearing a pair of socks that were like the high female stocks from one of his sisters. Chapman actually had it in the van. What happened how Albert Mins gets involved, is that Chapman is driving days later back to Waterloo, New York and presumably heading home, you know,
towards Jamestown, and he's pulled over. Sergeant Tony Dadder the New York City Police remembers the license plate from a bolo that very morning that maybe the play had been stolen. So when they kept Chapman. He's got hundreds of pitches of little boys strewn across his dashboard. And I write this in the book that you know, this is the way Wayne Chapman existed. I mean, he couldn't take a drive without having pictures of children strewn across his dashboard.
So when the police finally there, of course struck by the pictures of little boys, and they asked him to exit the vehicle, and he has a starter pistol, and eventually he's taken just on that starter pistol was a weapons violations in the state of New York, even though it wasn't a real done. When they inventoried the vehicle, they find thousands of dollars of state of the art camera equipment. You know, this is a man who worked as a janitor. You know, the median pay was around
three fifty an hour at the time. Dan he had a state of the movie reels, all of which depicted young boys in pornographic head of a homosexual activity. He had hundreds upon hundreds of magazines depicting young boys. I mean, he had a mobile child pornography, you know, a shop right there. And once they realized that he had a Provident address, and they started trying to identify boys who
were in these pictures. Albert Mintz was a sex crime at detect did with the Providence Police Department who had not known of Chapman. He received a teletype with the pictures of the boys saying, this man has a address in Rhode Island. We're wondering if you know who this is and who any of these boys are. And Mince is immediately struck by the background in the pictures of the boys. He recognizes it as a major state park here in Rhode Island, Roger Williams State Park, which is
a very popular attraction for people in the summer. And he immediately grabs the picture and says, well, I know where this is, and I know this is in my town, so I better figure it out. And he immediately gets the name and the address of Wayne Chapman and goes over to his apartment and he looks around and he pulls the trash out and gives a general look over the air that he finds receipts and realized that Chapman's really mobile. He finds the seats in Brockton and Lawrence
and Webster Haver Hill. You know other states, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts. And he notices a lot of kids out there talking and playing, and he just asked them, you know, if they know anything about Wayne. And immediately the boys got confessing that Wayne Chapman has had them up to the apartment. And immediately he realizes that he's got a case on his hands of a man who's molesting a lot of boys.
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So how does Mints proceed with this information?
Immediately he has Wayne Chatman extradited back to Massachusetts. But before he does that, before the extradition comes in, he goes to his boss and says, can I just go
up and visit this guy in New York now? Because Mins now has boys piling into the police station in Providence telling stories about how Wayne Chapman got him up to the third floor apartment at one twenty nine would have in Providence, and you know he's the boys tell him that he has a dark room up there he's developing film and Albert Steiner believe that he has a major sex predator here with a multitude of victims. And
once he starts looking at the receipt. He's realizing that just a week ago, this boy was in this man was in Lawrence. We have a missing boy at Lawrence, we have a missing boy in Brockton. He's aware of all these cases, so he wants to check and make sure, you know that Wayne Chapman doesn't know anything about these other missing boy cases. So he brings the pictures along
with him. He does get clearance to go up to New York, and he goes up to Upstate New York and Waterloo and has the first series of interviews with Wayne Chapman where the crime has sort of come into better focus. He tells him, you know that he had talked to a lot of the boys Providence, and a lot of them were Italian kids. And you have to understand Dan that growing up in this area, in Rhode Island, in Boston area, nothing happened, no commerce happened without the
mob being involved. And in Boston you had the Irish mob of games Lady Bulger. In Providence you had the Nicolsonosta you know, Raymond Patriota mob. And even more than the police, they had power, you know, more than anybody. They ran every enterprise there was played off that with Chapman. He tells them, listen, you have sexual assault on a bunch of Italian boys. How do you think this is going to play in prison? And he made Kallayne Chapman was petrified of going to prison because he's had bad
experiences in the past. He's probably going to go away for a long time. So Vince tells him just be honest with me and I can see what I can do for you, because I think you belong in the hospital and not in prison. And obviously Cadman is thinking, you know, if I can just get to a hospital, things are probably gonna be a little bit better for him.
Met so they talk. He shows them pictures of David Lewis and a five year old boy from Brockton who is missing, and Japman immediately starts to confess that that's the boy that he took behind the cemetery Melrose Cemetery in Brockton. Each would have been about two point eight miles away from where David Lewison went missing. He shows them the policey picture and he says, you know, that looks like the boy that I took with another boy. And at the time Dan, the police did not know
that another boy was involved when he took policy. That boy had not come forward until six years later. The only people who could have known that were the people who were there. And he explains and described the salt pits in Laurence where the abduction took place. In Hell. I mean, even decades later, Dan telling me, you know, the minute I actually viewed the scene in lines. After the conversation, I knew that Wayne Chapman had killed the greasy because he said it was just to a t
how perfect it was. And obviously now it looks a lot different, so it's very hard for me to have reference. But at that point, Wayne Chapman had confessed to victims in Fall River, Massachusetts, Sea Conk, Connecticut. He had talked about his crimes in Virginia in nineteen sixty eight when he had went, you know, quiet for a long time, where he tied a boy to a tree who bit him and lit the boy on fire, and he thought that the boy had died. And that was one thing
that I chased down in the story. For years and years, Dan was trying to locate a missing boy in Virginia between nineteen sixty eight and seventies who might have been found tied to a tree, and I just you know, I'd chase that story forever, but I've never been able to verify it. But if Wayne Chadman, you know, I'm of the mind that if Chapman, you know, confessed to it, then it happened because he was not, again in the
business of trying to throw police off the send. He's just simply not a smart enough man to play games of police. So it was during those first rounds of interviews, Dan, that al Mins was able to get the Quadi concessions on the Lewison Pergleasy case. All the rapes and providence and the surrounding areas and mints was starting to get some sort of focus on just how many victims this man had.
You talk about a crucial interview and the skill that you Wow, you've just described somewhat. It's a skillful interview to be able to persuade this person to give up information that other people would have a hard time listening from him. What happens with the evidence, the clear evidence from this concession, what can happen to him?
I think you know this was the end of the story, right Dan, that you know, the bad guy confesses and leads people to the bodies and the family gets some sort of yeah, I don't know how if you could call it closure, I don't know what he could call it, but uh, but it's not. I mean, Wayne Chapman describes these crimes in great detail. Albert Mints does an incredible job,
in my opinion, of pulling it out of him. And you know, at one point he even blurts out, when Mince is putting some pressure on him, you know, I killed the kid. Okay, I killed him. You know, he says that about Andy Puglici, And just as you know, Albert is starting to make some headway, you know. And I didn't put this in the page to disparage anybody, but Albert Mince is absolutely livid at his partner who came down with him from Providence because he believes that
he cost him the entire case. At that point, this is not Albert Vince's case. He is not a liar police detectives. He's not a detective from Brockton. He is investigating Providence crimes. But he is trying to get a soul broth of what Wayne Chapman has done while living in Providence, and he has him on the hood for maybe a full scale concession to two missing boys who have haunted the region for years. In one case, his partner sort of entered Jackson says, hey, you know, fine,
we killed him. Let's get a full scale confession and tell us about it. And at that point Wayne Chapman shuts down and says, hey, you got me believe in my own lives and an ailments, you know, to his eternal credit, you know, to this day, you know, as he sits in Sonning Jacksonville, Florida, where he lives now, says, you know, that was the worst. You know, that was the defining moment in our in our cases, because we lost Wayne Chapman right there. Then he never ever again
admitted to a crime. I mean, as from that point on, Wayne Chapman had completely set down and all have been thought of coming who you know, did the best he could with you know, trying to play on his uh, you know, the sort of what his life would be like in prison and he'd better be honest. But I think something clicked in his mind where if I made the full scale confession, I could potentially, you know, maybe
be looking at you know, life in prison. You know, and Walpole, which was a notoriously tough prison here, Dan, he could not get the death penalty and we did that here. So I don't know what happened. I'll never know, you know, in his psyche. But at that point, Wayne Chapman shut down and the evidence now had to be you know, detective now had to focus on getting physical evidence in tying Wayne Chatman to the crimes, and that it was just never available because the bodies were never fallen.
And you know, there was just no physical evidence ever linking Wayne Chapman to David Lewison or Andy Polsi. It just died right there, Dan.
Let's get back to bridge Water and Charles Pearce counseling these guys. No body, no crime, no time. Barjonah has a brother who has some money, and very much like Wayne Chapman, these guys of course find Christianity in prison. Tell us what happens with Barjona in the sexually Dangerous designation?
Well, Barjona, Barjona's dead. Bob Brown would often state that he believed his brother would switched to first was really one of his ultimate enablers. Dance and or you'll understand it even more. But you know, basically, Barjona was looking at getting out of prison very shortly on his prison time. He had only gotten eighteen to twenty years with the Massachusetts Parle system. I mean, he could have seen himself out,
you know, by nineteen eighty seven. And he was trying to shed that sexually dangerous designition that he fought so hard to get. And he wanted his brother to find him some Christian psychologists, and he found them. He wrote a five thousand dollars check to basically pay to get
his brother out of prison. And these two men, Eric Schweitzer and Richard Ober came in and totally disregarded every you know, the staff at Bridgewater has been evaluating Barjona all along, and they considered him to be one of the most dangerous predators that they ever had behind those walls. They had recommended that Nathaniel Barjona never ever see the light of day. This was a man who would openly speak about, you know, just to give you a snapshot
of his prison, you know, his Bridgewater time. This was a man who would carry pictures of kids in his Bible and they'd fall and drop out. He did not participate in sex Defender treatment at all. There's no interest in trying to you know, you know, figure out why he committed crimes. He had often talked to psychologists about his you know, his sort of curiosity about what it would be like the peace human flesh. I mean, he was openly opening about his interest in becoming a cannibal.
And these two men came in evaluated Barjona basically in a nutshell, testified in front of the judge in early nineteen ninety that, hey, listen, you know, this guy has found Christianity. He has a plan to move to Montana.
You know.
He had started an antique business, you know, from prison. I don't know how they do that, but that's great, you know. And board games. He had patented a couple of board games that he was trying to get sold, and the judge bought it. I mean, the judge didn't blink an eye. And Nathaniel Barjona was the door was open, and his mother was waiting for him in you know, August of nineteen ninety one. He was a free man on the recommendations of a man like Richard over which
you know I write in the book Dan. You know, this was a guy who you know, was a who had taught school children in Danang Province in Vietnam. He was a man who was a well respected member of the church. His practice, his private practice was literally located a stone's throw from where I live on the south coast of Massachusetts. I would often run by there on
my running route almost every day. And there was so many times, as I write in a book, where I wanted to just talk to him, and I would see him getting out of his vehicle and heading into his practice, and you know, I would just didn't tell you how many times, Dan I wanted to just stop him, and you know, obviously respectfully and just say could we please, you know, understanding what we know now about what Bardona did after he got out of prison, I'm just not
sure how this man fleet that night, you know, I'm not sure. And you know, in nineteen ninety one, Barjona is a free man completely, no parole, no prison, no probation. He is absolute let go from Bridgewater just months after opining about the fact that he has some interest in the teeth of human flesh. It's it's an incredible story. It's unreal, it's almost too unreal to be true. But you know, I've read the court documents, then it's absolutely true. That's how he got out.
What does he do?
You talk, You just mentioned that he he offends almost immediately.
What does he do? What?
What crimes does he commit?
Twenty three days later, he's in a town of Oxford, Massachusetts, Boxford, excuse me, and he sees a little boy in the backseat of a vehicle and his mother is heading into the post office and it's in a rainstorm. He's out on one of his many walks. Very key steamings with Barziona was to get out and walk around the streets and you know, spy little kids take pictures. That was one of his big things. And you know, the mom had left the kid in the backseat of the pa
seven year old boy. Barjona opened the door and proceeded to jump up and down on the boy's chest. And now at this point, Barjona was pushing three hundred and twenty five pounds, this boy was three foot eight in around thirty five pounds, and he stomped on the boy's past and just furiously acted out and which was absolutely his memo. I mean, he was sadistic and he got
off with other people's pain. And thank god the mother thar it in time and was able to come outside and grab Barjona out of there, who, of course was just simply saying, you know, I wanted to get out of the rain. He made a million excuses. He homes around buns off. The mom is able to get him after a description to the police, and of course Barjona is so well known. Even all these years later, police remembered the description of the man from nineteen seventy seven,
the true to abductions that took place. So they end up over at barjo in his mother's house that day. They take him in and you know, incredibly damned it's just it happened time and time again in the story.
He gets off.
I mean, there's nothing really, he's not touting prison that night. He's basically referred to probation and he's out within iurs And that very night he books up the victim's name from the police report. You know back then it was you know, yellow pages all over, and he takes a cab to the victim's house. That's very night, and they see him pulling up the driveway. They shut all the light off. He tells the cab drive away right here.
He stands outside the house and just peers them so everybody can see him, and then just turns around and walks off. And but the message was Sundan. You know, this was a guy who absolutely everything that you know, pedophile, absolutely, you know his name's doing this. I think his victims. He got off on the power. And that very night, after doing you know, fifteen years in Bridgewater, he's right back to terrorize and withstoms. He just couldn't stop himself
and he left that night. He ended up having a court appearance in the preceding weeks, and they were, you know, they he'd done signed a different judge, and they were they were ready to throw him back in there for life. I mean, they didn't know what to do with this guy. You know, he was a guy who you know, was cunning enough to help them. Listen, you know, I'm getting ready to leave the state. I'm heading to Montana with
my parents. His brother, Bob had already been a defense contractor who owned a lot of property in the Montana area, so he was milling and Massachusett authorities, for whatever reason,
agreed to do that. And they said, listen, you know, two conditions and Montana's got to take you, so you've got to get in contact with them, and b you need to have a psychological psychological exam to day and bar Jonah walked out of the court that day, never went down to site, and also never contacted authorities in Montana. He was heading to Montana, you know, just mere week later. So Montana had no idea that he was coming, and
Massachusetts had no idea that he's never contacted them. So it was a major misstep and major discommunication that was, you know, eventually, you know, allegedly cost a boy's life.
Let's stop for a second for these messages you talk about who costs a boy his life while he's out. Of course, his friend Wayne Chapman is jealous. What does he do to join his friend on the outside and continue their crimes on the outside.
To be clear, excuse me, Wayne Chapman had two fifteen to thirty years sentences too to serve, So he had about at least thirty years at the very least to serve. But we were starting to see the end of his time too. I'm not sure who paid for it.
Dan.
You know, these are not real psychologists. These are just simply hired guns who will do whatever you tell them to do for the right price. But Chapman was able to get Ober and Sweitzer too. He had essentially the same stopped going to treatment, he had stopped doing anything to sort of better himself. He would never talk about his crimes. I had talked to tons of people who were staff at that time, and Wayne Chamon was just shut down. I mean, he would never ever talk about
anything as related to his crimes. He never took responsibility. He didn't have the capability to understand, you know, what he had done. And Ober and Schweitzer eventually testify to the fact that Wayne Chapman is himself no longer sexually dangerous. And you look at the totality of Wayne Chaman's crimes. You know, one hundred victims that he admits to, how many more you know, the missing boys, And you know the fact that somebody would good conscience testify that this
man may not be a threat to society. It's just it's unfathomable for me. And if you read this book, you're you know, you're there's not really, you know, many happy endings there. There's not a lot of stuff that's redeemable here. And this is one of those instances. It's just it's maddening, but it does shed. They do shed Wayne Chapman of its sexually dangerous designation, and he gets sent from Bridgewater's Gardner, which is another sort of low,
uh medium prison in Massachusetts. And at the time he's he's in contact with Barjona through snail mail, and you know, he's talking about the outside and how he and how you know, Wayne, what Wayne Chapman can do to get out of there and fay Maine, and pretty consistent contact all the way through the nineteen nineties and right up
until bar Jona's death. I know we're jumping ahead, but those two, you know, had often talked about many, many things, including you know, sort of some cryptic messages back and forth that nobody's ever really been able to understand what exactly they're talking about. But those two were the best of friends, and line Chapman was incredibly jealous that all his fights were able to get him out of there.
But you know, his sentence was a lot lighter because he just didn't have the totality of crimes that Wayne Chapman did.
You talk about you write about nineteen ninety six and a character named Doc Bowman and bar Jonah tell us who Doc Bowman is and what happens in nineteen ninety six regarding a ten year old boy, Zach Ramsey.
There's so many rabbit holes in this case, Dan, you know it's and Doc Bowman is a rabbit hole that I fell down, you know, for years. And you know, the thing that really got me on Bouman is that he was known to Massachusetts in the nineteenth seventies. And this is a man who had been committing sexual assaults against the children for decades. He was a legitimate doctor,
He had a PhD from Houston. He was a piano teacher in the nineteen sixties in Colorado who would put out ads in the paper for lessons for specialty donsters. And this man had been committing crimes in Colorado throughout the entire nineteen sixties and eventually was you know, most most pedophiles. He was ran out of town and the details are incredibly unclear, but he ends up allegedly in
Massachusetts in the nineteen seventies. He had stated many times that he was a member of the original thirty two, which is what the original thirty two members of Namblock called themselves. I was never able to collaborate that he had no address history in Massachusetts, no known associates, But I believe, you know, this was a place Dan that
he was a pedophiles haven in the nineteen seventies. I mean people were coming in from all over the country, Atlanta, California, you know, Midwest, you know, to patronize a sex ring and then sort of, you know, get with like minded people and ninety nine percent of the public is repulsed by what these people have inside them. They look for validation, and somehow he ends up in Great Falls, Montana, which is you know again you know those details in Murphy too.
But I would not be surprised. And I talked about in the book that Barjona and Doc Bauman didn't know each other ahead the time, and maybe some intelligence came through back channels that this is a safe place to be.
You know.
There was another pedophile from Massachusetts that I talked about the Bookkeece Donaldson, who lived very close to Barjona, and he was a sex offender against little boys and that was his main thing as little boys, and he had been convicted on sexual assaults and he ends up in Great Falls of Montana, never living more than a mile away from Barjona. This is a Massachusetts guy all the
way who had been there. So it's just bizarre. It's from the you know, I just take it from the basis of there are no coincidences in the story, because it isn't. There's always a reason behind why these people are where they are and who they victim of. So Jack Diamon ends up meeting Barjona in nineteen three in Montana. He's got a long history of sex crimes against Kilden.
He's a Korean War vet which saw a good bit of combat as a medic, and at that point in his life he's in his late sixties and he's sort of hing Barjona, sort of band together and much like Chapman and Barjona good years prior, and they stock children together. They they you know, walk the streets of Great Falls together and take pictures, you know, over by the schools and the malls, and those two were basically inspectable all
the way up until Barjona. Dac Ramsey goes missing. And you know the thing with the Ramsey disappearance is this is just before Ramsey disappeared. Doc Bauman had a plan to take him away to Canada. These these three were in sort of a lover's quarrel together. Doc Bauman had fallen, you know, completely in love with this ten year old boy, and Barjona was incredibly jealous that he was spending less time with Dak and he was with Bauman more So.
I believe that was the genesis of Barjona's anger towards Dak Ramsey, and I believe that's what ultimately led to his disapparents.
Dan, mm hmm, you're right. In nineteen ninety nine, bar Jona is arrested. He's given one hundred and thirty years for molesting neighbors. The detectives read his correspondence between himself and Wayne Chapman, and so they you say that Montana authorities believe that Barjona and Wayne Chapman may have killed kids four years together. So this other team up. So let's talk about nineteen ninety nineteen ninety nine. But also
Charles Pierce. We mentioned him already. What does he say on his deathbed regarding Andy Blueglisi.
Yeah, Charles Pearce ends up with prostate cancer and he's really near the end in nineteen ninety nine, and he starts he had confessed prior to murder. Charles Pearce made it a habit dan of confessing to murders all the
way throughout his criminal career. Now, this is a man who was a carnival worker who had been living all over the country, but he was born in Massachusetts, and he would he caught a case in Florida in nineteen seventy nine where he molested two boys, and he immediately he immediately confessed to the murder of a young girl named Janice Pocket in Connecticut in nineteen seventy nine, which I write about in the book. And I sort of, you know, asked the question of you know, Connecticut authorities
don't believe that Charles Pearce did that murder. They believe that he could simply confess that murder. Who he could get to Massachusetts to be behind the wall of the Bridgewater with his friends, which you know, Flauta prisonism is notoriously tough, and it's definitely not easy for a pedophile. So I could see that, you know, there's alternate theories there.
But on his guest ben in ninety nine, he's starts admitting that he you know that he committed these murders, and Lawrence that he, you know, buried the body of Andy Puglici, and you know, and and then he pulls back and then he and then he then he does
it again. I mean, he goes back and forth. But you know, I do believe, you know, Dan, like I said, I believe when Wayne Chapman took Andy Peglssi on that day in seventy six, he intended to do what he always did, which was raped the boy and take pictures so he could produce his child pornography and get it out to his customers. He was a low level child pornographer who was at the bottom rung of a massive apparatus.
And it's really the apparatus that killed these boys. That being said, I think things got out of hand and Antiperglici was somehow killed in the in the commission of those crimes. And once he realized that he had a dead boy on his hands, that's when men like Charles Pierce get involved. And Charles Pearce was made to be known in those circles that if a body needed to go away, he could make it go away. Now, whether they took that body and buried it somewhere in Lawrence
that we have yet to find yet. I truly hope that's the case. And some day his Romanians did returned to his family, and his family have a place to you know, lay flowers or visit their fun It's you know, the opinion of some authorities in Providence in my opinion as well, that somehow those two got back to Providence where where Chapman was employed at Miriam Hospital, where he had the key of the incinerator. There was an unauthorized man that during next day God at work when he
wasn't supposed to be. And I believe that's what they did in any body. And I believe the reason why a guy like Pierce would admit to a crime like that on his deathbed was simply just to run misdirection for his friend. He's about to die. Chapman had years left and you know, if he could screw with the police one last time, then then great. And and that's
what I truly believe that was. And I don't think that he he is the one who you know, killed Peglici, but I do believe that he had a lot of involved and what happened afterwards, and witnesses had stated in the years that have gone pass now that they saw a van that looked just like Charles Pears's idling near the pool that day. And I believe Pierce was there that day. They worked in pandem and whether it was you know, Wayne Chapman committing the crime and Charlie Pierce
taking the pictures or what have you. I believe Charles Pearce was there that day and had some sort of involvement in the crime. And the concession is layered in some truth, but not all the way true.
There you write that in twenty and eighteen, Wayne Chapman was released living outside of a school in a nursing home in Rocky Hill, Connecticut, and you had a brief confrontation with him in twenty nineteen.
Tell us about that.
You know, I heard a.
Youth renter.
He was.
I heard him on a podcast, you know, maybe two three years ago talking about how he had a favorite suspect in a case that he had been obsessed with for years, but the disappearance of a girl named Amy Howe that he had something. He had gone down to Florida and he basically was going to call the man's bluff and say hey, I have this information and see how he reacted. And and I sort of stole a pat from his book. If I ever had the opportunity,
I told myself to talk to Wayne Chapman. I was going to tell him that I had the information that I know that he committed an unauthorized burn the very next day after Andy Paglici's disappearance, and I wanted to see his reaction. And I don't have that information, but I wanted to see his reaction. Although it is the opinion of the of the detectives in Providence that that's what happened, and I think that's a good theory. I think that's a theory that makes a lot of sense,
But I don't know either way. I saw our news report that Wayne Tratman is going to be released to a homeless shelter that was close to the Boston area that I recognized, and I knew that Tratman would probably enter and exit in certain directions, and I was going to go down there and talk to him, and you know, I grabbed him, and he was in his wheelchair at that time, and I said, you know way, and I know that you know I have information that Andrew Perplice's
DNA was found in the incinerator, and what do you think of that? And you know, he just told me that he had never been to Lawrence and he didn't know anything about him, and he denied until it was a meeting that was completely fruitless. But I'll tell you, Dan, I've been in front of Caliban terrorists in Afghanistan, that I'd been in front of Boco Haram terrorists in the Middle East, and I've been in front of the worst
people that you could possibly produce in this world. And I've never had the feeling that I had when I was face to face a Wayne Chapman. He could just be definite definition of pure evil and an unfinished soul. You know, at least he doesn't have the capacity to feel the feelings at me and you feel and I took at least that away from the meeting.
Yeah, I want to thank you David McGrath for coming on and talking about Monster the Life and Crimes of Wayne Chapman. There is so much more to discover for people to read in this book.
It's we've just.
Touched on it in this ninety minutes. For those that might want to take a look at this, tell us when this release date is, and is there a Facebook page or anywhere where people might take a look at this more, and how what if anything else that they might be able to find you on.
Social media.
You can certainly find me on Twitter at David McGrath eleven b Dan If I could, I would like to last my email addresses David in the Grass, eleven Bisimbravo at email dot com. Anybody who listens to this, who Tiger, who has been a victim of sexual assault or please, you know, feel free to email me. I'm always here to listen.
You know.
This book is because of my own sexual abuse, and these stories cannot be lost the time. And there's great people who do work on most like Melanie Perkins and I'm sort of picking up the mantle a little bit too, But the bottom line is we can't let these things get lost to history. Statistically, Wayne Chapman exists in your neighborhood right now, and for whatever reason, it's just these are kids that don't talk about in public, and I hope that we can this book can do a little
bit to change that. And if there's somebody out there who's dealing with fallout from their own sexual assault. Then please email me, get in contact with me. I'm always here and I'd like to make that point above all them.
Okay, thank you, Thank you so much, David McGrath. Monster The Life and Crimes of Wayne Chapman, released November eleventh. So thank you so much. You have a great evening, and thank you so much for this interview. Thank Jim.
Good night,