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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dalhmer, The Nightstalker VTK every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Good Evening, a haunting account of the sixteen years when a young Jamie Gearing and her family live closer than anyone to Ted Kaczinski, the Unibomber. As a child of Lincoln, Montana, Jamie Gearing and her family shared their land, their home, and their dinner table with a hermit with a penchant for murder. But they had no idea that the odd recluse living in the adjacent cabin was anything more than a disheveled man who brought young Jamie painted rocks as gifts.
Ted was simply ted and erratic behavior. Surprise visits and chilling events while she was riding horses or helping her dad at a sawmill were dismissed because he was just the odd hermit. In fact, he was much more. Ted alluded the FBI for seventeen years while mailing explosives to strangers,
earning the infamous title of Unibomer. In Gering's investigative quest twenty five years later to reclaim a piece of her childhood and to answer the questions why how, she recalls what were once innocent memories and odd circumstances that become less puzzling in hindsight the innocence of her youth, rob Gering needed to reconcile her lived experience with the evil that hidden plain sight in this book, through years of research probing Ted's personal history, his writings, his secret coded
crime journals, her own correspondence with him and his supermac's prison cell, plus interviews with others close to Kazinski, gearing on Earth's the complexity, mystery, and tragedy of her childhood with the Madman in the Woods, and she discovers a shocking revelation she and her family were in Kazinski's crosshairs. A work of intricately braided research, journalism, and personal memories, this book is a chilling response to the question do
you really know your neighbor? The book that we're featuring this evening is Madman in the Woods Life next Door to the Unibomber with my special guest journalist and author Jamie Gering. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview.
Thank you so much for having me, Thank.
You so much for joining us with this incredible tale. Madman in the world woulds. Let's get right to this and as you discussed in the beginning of this book, you explained the relationship the proximity with life next door to the Unibarmer. But it's start and in its connection to nature and the comfort and adventures you had in nature and in your childhood, and then this relationship with
Ted next door. So tell us a little bit about how close the proximity you were to Ted's cabin and just the relationship you had with your family and this little area that you describe in the book.
Yeah. So, in nineteen seventy one, my grandfather, who owned close to nine thousand acres of ranch land, sold a small plot of land to Ted and David Kazinski, specifically one point four acre, and Ted Kazinski, otherwise known as the Unibommer, ended up building his cabin there. Our famili's
ranch land surrounded his property. In the late seventies early eighties, my father and mother built their log cabin just under a quarter mile away from Kazinski's plot of land, and so in rural Montana, this was actually very close, honestly, as neighbors go. Specifically in that area. It was very isolated, of course, where Ted Kaczinski was living, and very secluded. It was about four miles away from town. And when I say town, it is the town of Lincoln, Montana,
approximately one thousand residents. There is not even a stoplight that changes color from red de green. It is a blinking yellow, tiny little town. And honestly, my childhood was looking back, and that was a really great part of writing this. It was so beautiful to grow up that way in nature and you know, building forts and being
in complete isolation. And that's definitely a question that I asked myself through the book, is how could these beautiful woods inspire me the way they have and nurture me while isolating and you know, darkening our neighbor, the unibomber.
You talk about the first step in your you called Journey of Exploration started at the local library in Denver, Colorado. Tell us about your beginning.
Yeah, So, since Ted Kaczynski's arrest in nineteen ninety six. I've always wanted to tell this story. I've always wanted to write this book, and knowing that my father had a part in the investigation, of course, inspired me that much further. And when I started researching after I decided I'm finally going to do this, it took years to read about the accounts that I wasn't present for the FBI's investigation, for instance, and even Ted's own brother, David
Kaczinski's account. And so it really began in the library in Denver, Colorado, with me checking out every book that I could find about Ted and just trying to really place myself in those narratives that again I just wasn't present for.
Now, you go back in this book and you start with the first impressions of this odd hermit next door and you were four years old. So take us back to this scenario where you lived and how you lived in your family lived, and your first meeting with Ted and your interaction with him.
Yeah, so my first memory of Ted was when I was around four years old and we were living in our little log cabin that my parents had built. I was outside playing as I did all the time, by myself and it was just another typical day out in rural Montana, and all of a sudden I saw Ted coming towards the home. And at that time, he was still a bit more like his appearance was a bit more like the Berkeley professor than the Ted Kaczynski you
see when he was arrested. Yes, he still he did definitely have his hair was disheveled, and he looked like he lived off the land as a hermit would, but he didn't have that more terrifying appearance as he did when I was much older. So when I saw him coming towards me, I was excited, just as I always was when Ted, when Ted would come by the home. And I remember just very very vividly the feelings that I had when I was a kid, and specifically in
this encounter he had. He had brought me painted rocks as a gift, and I was so excited and so appreciative of these beautiful creations. I mean, I loved rocks, and I thought it was so thoughtful that he had painted them for me and took the time to bring me bring me a present. So that first memory was was very fond, and that was difficult for me to reconcile as an adult. How I could have such a soft memory of an encounter with a killer.
Let's get back to your research and the materials that you had to read. You say it took years because there was so much material. Everybody knows about the manifesto thirty five thousand words, but you started with other materials. Tell us about some of those materials and what you began to learn about Ted Kazinski.
Yes, so there was a memoir that was written by David Kaczynski, and I started with that. It was more of a personal account of what it was like to grow up with Ted, and that's, you know, initially what I was looking for, is that personal part of the narrative. And then in addition, I had read a book, I believe it's Robert gray Smith's book about the unibomber, and it was a very journalistic approach. It was his crimes and his background, and that was, you know, very interesting.
And then there was another book written by co authored by FBI agent Max Noll about the hunt for the unibomber and the investigation. And then after I read those books, I read Ted's own autobiography, which is essentially a PDF that he has written of his own accounts and his life. So that was that was also, you know, very very interesting. And then I started to read Ted's journals, and so when I say journals, there are notebooks that were found in the cabin after Ted's arrest, and it's truly his
innermost thoughts. It's also details of his crimes, but it's day to day what his life looked like, what he thought about, what he was reading, what he was hunting, what he was eating. And it really gave me a very intimate look into what my neighbor was doing and thinking all of those years while we lived so close by.
You mentioned David, his brother's personal account. What did you learn about Ted's background and for example, his school background and his motivation for moving to this isolated place.
So what I learned about Ted's background was I had heard that the accounts of Ted being separated as a baby from his family in the hospital, and you know, I was able to glean a little more intel, I suppose on that particular event in his life. It took place while he was only nine months old and a very vulnerable age as far as development and separation anxiety. So that was that was an interesting look into I
suppose the making of this man. And then through school I learned that Ted was on an accelerated schedule, He was advanced a grade, he graduated early, He graduated at sixteen and went off to Harvard. So and he had always felt very isolated, I suppose from his peers, and not able to truly relate. And of course that is
understandable given a bit of his background. You know, obviously there was probably some mental illness that was present there as well, and so you know, through the years, really those experiences, although individually seem small, really shaped who he was and who he is. And of course we all know then he went to Harvard at sixteen, and you know there was some questionable experiments that were done there, and you know that of course also seemingly fueled him.
And he does write even in nineteen seventy one when he purchased the property from my family, he writes about his motivation for moving to the small parcel of land. He writes about his motivation for revenge and how he was fueled by anger. So it was very obvious even in those early years what Ted Kazinski's intentions were.
You mentioned, this was very interesting to learn about these humiliation experiments, knowing how powerful just reading the initial title humiliation humiliation experiments and knowing how much humiliation is a major factor, and a lot of the most serious killers' backgrounds tell us about these experiments.
Yeah, so there's not a lot available on these particular experiments. But what I did find is that Ted Kasinc Was a part of, as you said, these humiliation experiments where basically the student was asked to write down their personal ideals, their beliefs, and sort of in an essay form. They were submitted and then they were brought back in to debate these and defend their most personal beliefs. And really what happened is they were paired against a successful interrogator.
And really, for Ted Kaczinski specifically, I believe so much of his own personal worth was tied to his intelligence and having someone break down his thoughts and beliefs was particularly destructive to him. It was a stressful situation. You know, they were measuring heart rate, they were looking at a solid mirror, so they couldn't passed. They knew there were people watching them, and they were measuring the stress response
when people were placed in these types of positions. And again for Ted specifically, he was at a vulnerable age. He was, you know, sixteen seventeen. He was a minor when this was happening, and he already felt isolated and different because of his background. This was just one more thing that pushed him into isolation.
I suppose you mentioned, but we haven't talked about. But I think it's important and you think it's important as well. Is this rash in this hospitalization at nine months I believe, So tell us what ensued and what do you think it seems was the result.
Yeah, So, when Ted Kaczynski was nine months old, he developed a rash all over his body. Case of hives is what it seemed to be, and his mother did what any mother would do and rushed him to the hospital. The staff took him. They were scared that his airways
might close, and so they were treating him. And you know, back in those days, they didn't allow the parents to stay with the children or the babies at this particular hospital, and so he was separated from his caregiver, his constant, and he was put on basically like splints so that he wouldn't scratch this rash all over his body and In my research, I found that his mother always harkened
back to this specific event even in his adulthood. She was writing letters to him, trying to connect still while he was in that little cabin in Montana, and referencing this event and telling him that this changed him. And she thinks that's where the hatred that he held for his parents really stemmed from, because she had to leave him and he was alone, and he changed after that, she said. When he went into the hospital, he was
meeting milestones and this happy, friendly, bouncy baby boy. And after the experience, she says, basically, he was a dead lump emotionally and had more of an institutional look and it took a long time to get even just a part of that baby Ted back.
Now you talk about Ted and the effect of this early hospitalization had on him, according to his mother, Now he had a family. There was typical family, a loving family, it seemed, and so they seemed to understand Ted and his peculiar arities, and they were supportive of Ted moving
to this isolated place and this cabin. So tell us what your family their response was to this new neighbor and some of the things that your understanding father and mother did with this new neighbor and how they considered him.
Yeah, in rural Montana, it is not alarming to have a neighbor that lives off grid or chooses to live more of an isolated life. And so when Ted had moved to Montana and started developing a relationship with my father and my mother, they took him for what he seemingly was. And anytime they would have him over for dinner or play cards with him, and you know, spend spend time as neighbors do, and they would start talking, you know, asking personal questions like you would where you're from,
things about your family. Ted would always deflect, and he would respond with answers that were very much on the surface. And my parents, from those experiences with him, just thought he must have a pained past or you know, possibly
another theory was that he was a disenfranchised vet. I mean, there was something that he didn't want to talk about, and so they really respected that this neighbor of theirs needed space and he was a little bit eccentric, but they, you know, they he seemed like he was peaceful and shy and reserved and even kind in those early years, So you know, they they again, they had him over
for dinner. They would even my parents did. My mom and father did get divorced and my father remarried, and those later years, even with my stepmother and my father, they would bring Ted firewood or they would offer to have him work at the mill. And you know, in the in the early years, Ted helped build certain parts of our home and helped my father and they traded labor. So through the years, there were so many things that you know, my parents tried to do for this seemingly man of the mountains.
One thing you didn't mention is that your father went further and offered the tools and the shops that he operated and used and offered those to Ted to use any tools and to use these structures whenever he needed it, didn't he.
Yeah, So my dad was very generous and what always
helped his neighbors out. But specifically it was another neighbor, Chris Waites, who really opened up his workshop to Ted and his welding equipment, any sort of tools that he needed, even his land, which he owned quite a bit of property in a place called McClelland Gulch, which is just about a mile away from where we were five miles from town specifically, and that really allowed Ted the resources that he needed for bomb building and even for additional isolation,
because he was building bombs and testing bombs in our backyard but also in Chris's backyard. And he even had a cabin that he had built on Chris's land in McLellan Gulch in case he needed to run and hide. And so these very trusting people in this really tight knit community in Montana were really fooled by this man.
You say that you interviewed Chris Waits in twenty eighteen, and he has a book of Unibomber, The Secret Life of Ted Kazinski or what did he say to you in that interview?
So Chris actually was able to really shed some light on the early years. And you know, in nineteen you know, the nineteen seventies, especially the later seventies, Chris and Ted were friends. And you know, as much as I suppose Kazinski would befriend someone, they would take rides into town together.
Chris would pick him up and they would talk. They would talk about the books they were reading or the hikes that Ted had recently gone on, and they had formed a relationship of friendship together, and of course for obvious reasons, as the years went on, that friendship definitely
did dissolve. But that was a really interesting perspective for me to hear, is that Ted Kaczynski that was again a little bit closer to the Berkeley professor than the unibomber that you conjure up when you when you think of Ted. And so it was. It was just a look into a different perspective. I suppose a friend the early the early Ted while he was still in his early years of domestic terror, but he resembled the man
that that many actually had known still. So in addition to that he did he did share with me the years that followed, which were much more terrifying. He shared his dogs being stabbed and poisoned and killed through the years, his wife meeting Ted in the woods without actually knowing that it was Ted, but later realizing it had to be him because of what she felt. You know. There were even times that he shared with me that Ted would be outside of their home watching them late at night.
And so there were, as the years ticked on, some really horrifying events that Chris was able to share with me.
One part of your book that is even more telling and revealing is in nineteen seventy eight, Ted returns to Chicago to work with his brother at a factory foam cutting engineers. What happens here? He leaves this cabin nineteen seventy eight, he goes to Chicago. What happens in terms of romance or potential romance and work at this factory? How does it all work out?
Ted did reach out to Illinois in seventy eight, and you know, the motivation behind that is still unclear. Whether he needed money for funding or if he needed to be around his family were not quite clear on. But he did return and he started working with his brother and at the factory, and he found a love interest by the name of Ellen Turmichael. And it had been quite some time since Ted had spent time with a woman.
They had gone on a few dates together. They went apple picking, and he took her out to a French restaurant for dinner, and then she broke it off and it really destroyed Ted. And again, it wasn't a serious relationship, it was only a few dates, but it really affected him, and even his brother remembers Ted just completely shutting down after Ellen called it quit, and Ted was so filled with anger that he posted limericks about Ellen, who also worked at the factory, all around the factory, about a
limerick about her body, and it was I mean. David Kaczynski was appalled and of course made Ted take down the limericks. But then the next day another one was up and David had to fire his brother, and of course that just made the fire inside of Ted grow and he actually it was found that Ted had planned to disfigure Ellen. He had set up a meeting to talk to her, and he had a knife hidden in a paper bag with planned to attack her, and they did.
They were able to talk and his as he explains, I think he specifically says something like his anger fizzled out and he didn't feel the need anymore to hurt her. Thankfully.
He talked to his mother about this. It was such a traumatic event to him. And the woman had said when he confronted her and asked what the problem was, is that she said he lacked social confidence and that she was just interested. He said, well, why do you go out with me but just interested in you? Because I've never been with a person like you. So he talked to his mother about this event and this lack of social confidence and social skills and never felt the
love of a woman. He talked to his mother.
Yeah, And in his autobiography later, when he's talking about this event, he mentions that Ellen had said that you lack confidence socially, and he made it's like, this may
be true, but still a mean thing to say. And so, you know, again looking back on Ted's history and you know, his childhood and just kind of the isolation that he experienced growing up and his feeling of just being awkward around his peers and not really connecting and not being able, you know, being younger, he wasn't really a candidate for the girls to be dating in his grades, and so he always felt just a little a little off, a
little different. And I think that this was very obvious with the relationship with Ellen, and it most likely you know, affected him as an adult as well, and being uncomfortable in that sort of situation and maybe feeling a little more vulnerable when he was, you know, broken up with.
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You say your parents split, and then you talk about the library, and you talk about Ted and this garden, this huge garden he had. So he's in his more still normal, more so normal phase and you see him at the library. Tell us about some of these interactions you have with Ted at this time.
Yeah, so in the early eighties, even mid eighties, there were plenty of times where we had interactions with Ted. And although he was still a hermit and he was still very much isolated, he would come by the house. He would come into town. He would go to the library and read, and sometimes when my dad and I would stop by, he would be there and we would offer him a ride, and you know, sometimes he would stay. Sure, sometimes he was on his bike and say no, thank you.
And he would definitely come into town for supplies. He would come into the grocery store, and you know, he was a fixture in our small community. People, although didn't have close relationships with him, they all knew him and would see him, especially walking in and out of town or on his bike, and he was just to everybody. He was just Ted.
What was happening with Ted's development and enacting revenge via bomb making at this time.
So in Ted's own development, those early years of bomb making were, as the FBI described, his bombs were very primitive. They were match heads and you know, some gunpowder, and they weren't I hate to say it this way, but these are Ted's. They weren't as successful as he would have hoped. They were maiming people, but they weren't killing people. That is what Ted dedicated himself to. He took years off of sending bombs to develop bombs that would be lethal,
and reading his journals. If he were to only maim someone when he intended to kill someone, he would be disappointed and he would write about that. So as the years progressed, his bombs definitely became more I suppose effective to him and advanced. And again that is just that is what he committed his time and his life to.
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u r d r ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire. So, Jamie, we were talking about the development of Ted and his as you provide with excerpts from the journal, he took time off to be able to develop the lethality of these He was disappointed that they weren't more effective in killing his targets. So let's talk about some of the things that he complained about that he was obsessed about, such as jet noise and technology, and then some of the targets and the people that he targeted for murder.
So Ed would write in his journals about not being able to escape society or completely remove himself from the social machine, even when he was hiking in the woods, he would run into people, or he would hear the noises of jets, or he would hear the noise of my father's sawmill that was very close to his property. There were sometimes people who had come into our own property to help my father log or to later on
to my father least mineral rights for some time. And so Ted would complain about the outsiders and people in general and seeing them in the woods, and so it was clear that these types of interactions would I don't know if they would fuel him more, but they definitely justified his violence. And the strange thing about this particular case is that Ted was complaining about industry, about technology,
and his targets were very indiscriminate, like there was. He was attacking universities, and yes, he was directly attacking airlines. He tried to blow up Flight four four four in nineteen seventy nine. He was throughout the years though, still sending bombs and placing bombs at universities and to trying to injure and kill people that, looking back on now, were really trying to do really incredible things for humanity.
And it is it's strange to see the different types of targets that Ted had, and again he was getting his information from directories that he would read and choosing targets in that fashion. I mean, there wasn't he wasn't
using the Internet, there wasn't Google. He was perusing these different directories and finding people that he thought were really representing these industries that he wanted to destroy, and in reality he injured and killed many innocent people that again were trying to better other people's lives and humanity as a whole.
You talk with Max Noell from the FBI, and you find out some disturbing things because the initially in this you say that you were a naive and you tried to find an understanding of how this person, this hermit, this innocent, seemingly odd person, hermit that gave you the four painted rocks as a present, and you saw him and interacted with him many times, as did your family. Max Noell informed you and all of the materials that you read that your family was in the crosshairs.
Tell us about this, Yeah, I mean that was a very difficult part of writing this because in ninety six, when Ted was arrested, there was almost a feeling of relief that we had lived My family had lived by this man for twenty five years. Sixteen years of my life were spent right next to a serial killer, the longest running domestic terrorist in United States history. And once I really started reading Ted's journals and sat down with FBI agent Max no I discovered that we were in
much more danger than originally thought. I guess it was a naive assumption that Ted Kaczynski wouldn't be committing acts of domestic terror in his own backyard, but he did. He was, you know, from smaller things like sabotaging equipment, or breaking into a home and destroying somebody's kitchen and bathroom and snowmobiles outside, to actually poisoning my dog and injuring Chris Waite's dogs, and then too really considering killing
the people that he lived by. For instance, my stepmother discovered after Kazinski's arrest that there was a in which Ted had her and my little sister, who was only two at the time, in his crosshairs. He was looking at both of them through a rifle, considering killing them. And so those types of things were really difficult to discover and of course to write about.
You talk about the sabotage with your parents, sawmill and some of the other things that you read that were surprising, and you had a little motorbike as well, So you say that what was most alarming or one of the things the most alarming was this neck high fence wire booby trap that he had set up.
Yeah, so, after Ted's arrest, my father had shared with me that there was neck height wire found around our prop pretty and of course initially I think it was probably my age, you know, I just I thought, oh, my gosh, that is really horrible that he was trying to kill someone. And then of course later when reading his journal entries about admitting, you know, and again when he was writing these journal entries, it was like he was talking to an audience, which you'll see in my
book and the ones that I reference. But whoever he was telling in these journals, in these notebooks, he was admitting to trying to decapitate, trying to kill someone with whire that he would string up on a blind corner neck high. And of course, as an adult, the realization that I was writing my little ninety ninety motorcycle around our property on these logging roads, I was lucky to be here and not have not have fallen into one of those.
Traps you had to read and you detail in the book, but you say that there are other books as well that detail the crimes themselves, but you had to read the horrific details of what happened to say Scrutton, Howard Scrutton, I believe the first, yes, you've pardon me, the first victim, and all of the details of the explosion itself and all the other attempts he did to main people in which he did he mained people, but tried to kill them.
So while you tried to balance and tried to have an understanding of how this could possibly happen, you were reading information that just reinforced that he was nothing but a possibly immature, but definitely mentally ill psychopaths.
Yeah, reading about the accounts, even just the statements like from the corner when Scrutton was murdered, and then reading the victim impact statements, and you know, hearing things like in Susan Moser's account of the day that her husband was killed and trying to comfort her children who she would have to tell that their father was dead, he was murdered, and wanting to go back into the house to grab her daughter's baby blanket to comfort her, but
it was soaked in blood. It was I mean, especially as a mother, it was horrific to read those words and to write about those events and truly the devastation that he created and the ripple effect of that not only these wives left without a husband, but their children left without a father, and all the birthdays, all the Christmases through the rest of their lives, they'll have that
piece of them missing. And to reconcile that it was our neighbor, the unibomber ted Kazinski that was inflicting this horrific violence and destruction on these families was really devastating.
You talk about Max Knowell and the FBI, their decision to release this manifesto, and this must have been a hard decision, a difficult decision. But what was their idea by releasing this? And then, despite what people have heard about David coming forward, it wasn't exactly David finding out who first found out and recognized the unique writing contained in this manifesto. But first tell us about Max Noell and the plan to release this manifesto.
Yeah, as we were talking about earlier, part of this process for me with the interviews and the research that I did was really hearing about those parts of the
narrative that I wasn't present for. And of course, the FBI trying to decide if they're going to publish the manifesto from this domestic terrorist was something I wasn't privy to until I was able to sit down with Maxnell and he shared what it was like to be in the FBI investigating the unibomb case at that time and what they were really struggling with, which was giving a
domestic terrorist a voice in the media. And really what it came down to finally was they were hoping that they would somebody would recognize the specific idioms and the thoughts of this terrorist in the manifesto. So it was a really difficult decision, but the FBI weighed out the consequences compared to the reward and they knew they had to catch this person who had been terrorizing this nation
for seventeen years. So once it was published, it was actually not David Kaczynski that recognized the particulars of the railing against technology. It was Linda Patrick, his wife, and she had to come to her husband David and tell him she thought that Ted was the unibomber, which, as you could imagine, would be a very difficult position to be it.
Now, from that they finally decided to call the FBI. And then what's interesting in this manifesto too, is that Kazinski pretends to be part of this Freedom Club and pretending that there was an actual number of members in this group. So from when they had released this manifesto, you write, too, it's very interesting that there was instantly, immediately thousands of calls. In fact, you write interestingly, fifty nine brothers swore it was their brother, so he ye had.
That is something that Max Noell shared with me, which is it really is just an incredible amount of people for one suspects and also this specifically for brothers that we were under suspicion that during this time.
Now with the FBI, it's just not as easy to take David's word that this is definitely his brother and he's the unibarmer. It's hard to believe for David, it's hard to believe for the FBI that's been looking at this case for seventeen years. But they still have to have a plan, They still have to get a warrant and they still have to involve somebody that's close and is trusted or is at least not suspected as a
ne'er do well or someone that's threatening to Ted. So tell us about this entire process of your father and your family being involved in the takedown of Ted Kaczynski.
Yeah, So this was another part of writing this and learning some aspects of this story that I hadn't known that was really important to me because my father was very private about his part in the case, and as I sat across from Max Noell so many years after Ted's arrest, he was able to share with me not only my father's part in the investigation and the takedown, but also Max's innermost thoughts, especially when it came to
first seeing Ted Kaczynski. So in the months prior to Kazinski's arrest, of course, the FBI set up in Lincoln, Montana and started kind of their their investigative work as to who they were going to work with, how they were going to do it, and who they could trust. And FBI agent Max Noll was introduced to my father by a mutual connection Jerry Burns, who was a Foreign Service officer that Max had reached out to and during those that first conversation specifically, they were both kind of
feeling each other out. Max and my father kind of both determining if they could trust each other who they really were. And you know, Max did tell him he was with the FBI and they were researching our neighbor, Ted Kaczinski for writing some threatening letters. And you know, my dad's initial reaction was kind of like, oh, Ted,
really that that's really odd. But then as they continued their communication and Max knew that he could trust my dad, he did tell him that they suspected that Kazinski was the unibomber. And of course my dad was shocked. I mean, the man that had been living in that little cabin next to our family for twenty five years in a ten by twelve shock, no running water, no electricity grid, surviving on about two hundred dollars a year. He just
could not reconcile that in his mind. And of course then he started thinking about all of the kind of strange encounters through the years, and even like his sawmill being sabotaged, and what Kazynski stood for, the railing against technology and industry, it all kind of it all kind of made sense and my dad started coming around to the idea that yes, this man was the unibomer And so my dad actually offered to take Max up to
the cabin and get a view of it. Because my dad had frequented the area that he Our property surrounded Ted's and so it wasn't unusual for my father to be up there. So they walked up there, and as I talked about in the book, the FBI ended up Max Noll ended up getting his first look at Ted Kaczynski as our dogs were barking, and Ted exited the home for a moment to see what the ruckus was
all about. That was FBI agent Max Nowell's first look at this man that the FBI had been hunting for seventeen years, and here he was in this tiny shack in rural Montana, completely disheveled, and in no way did he resemble what Max had in his mind what this man would look like. So that was just a really impactful story. I suppose that Max shared with me about his first look at the unibomber, and you know, my
dad's pardon that. And then, of course, as time progressed and the investigation did as well, there were their things that the FBI asked of my father, and one of those very large things being that they needed to get an idea of what the terrain, you know, looked like around Ted's cabin. And so my father was asked to videotape Ted's cabin and the surroundings. And of course, at that point he knew that Ted was suspected as being a murderer, and he was of course terrified to do that,
to go up with his handheld video camera. I mean, of course, now we have our iPhones, but this was the nineties and those camcorders looked a lot different, they were much larger. But he did it. He walked up there with his camcorder at his hip and videotaped the logging roads, the terrain all around Ted's home and his cabin.
Let's use this as an opportunity, Jamie, to stop for a second for these messages. Now, your father was instrumental in getting the photo taken and helping them identify where this cabin was. And while he was with them, they saw their first like they saw Ted Kazinski, this person that just wasn't some other image in their mind. But your father also offered something else, and that was relative to the FBI, what else did your father offer?
And was a big part of My father was able to express to the FBI what Ted what would alarm Ted, because, as they would find after Kazinski's arrest, Ted was looking. He had a lookout tree. He knew that at some point someone could discover who he was, and so he was very aware of any outsiders. So my father really
helped the FBI fit in I suppose. I mean they had already they had chosen to rent a rent a dent truck, and they were dressed up, you know, like they were miners or loggers, and really my dad helped them develop that cover and then suggest that, you know, a way to get Ted Kazinski out of his cabin and able to And I want to add that they the FBI really wanted to ensure that it was a safe capture and that was that was partly because I mean, that's their job, but also it was David Kazinsky's concern
as well, and you know, there was they didn't want a big shootout, they didn't want a Waco situation, and so any any way of being able to arrest Ted while he was outside of his cabin was what they were shooting for. But Ted wasn't leaving his cabin, and so they didn't have an opportunity to arrest him. And so my father suggested that they approached the cabin and let Ted know that they were from this mining company that had been leasing the mineral rights on our property
and that they just needed to confirm property lines. And of course Ted was always very, very worried about his own personal private property, and they knew that this would definitely be a way that Ted would leave his cabin, and that is in fact what they did, and it did ensure a safe arrest in which Ted Kaczynski left unharmed and alive.
You write about seeing this on the news. Where were you and when you saw this? And this person that you saw when you were four, you said he looked different when you were ten, and relationship was a little bit different. You mentioned in the book what about his appearance?
So I was back in California with my mom when Ted was arrested. I had spent the year previous in Lincoln, and so I had seen Ted, but I initially heard it on the radio, and my dad took the confidentiality so seriously on this case that I didn't know what was going on. My own stepmother, his wife didn't know what was happening, and took basically the day of the arrest. So and that was request by the FBI for obvious reasons.
So I was in complete shock when my radio was interrupted with news that Ted Kazinski was suspected as being the unibomber and had been apprehended in Lincoln, Montana. I mean, I just I think I was in shock. I couldn't quite process that information. And you know, in just the days after, I watched the news constantly and then was finally able to talk to my dad about it, and here you know, more of the background and what actually transpired.
But it was it was just a very pivotal moment in my life to see Ted Kaczinski on the news in handcuffs. And you know, he had always looked a bit disheveled. He had always been eccentric, but in that moment, his clothes seemed to be rotting off of him. That you know, he was his eyes for so wide, there was gray, and his beard and his hair was completely disheveled. He looked like a madman. And that that was very difficult to process.
You say in this book, you write that there was some correspondence with Ted Kazinski in Florence, Colorado, in prison, and the end of this book you tried to come to terms with this school when you say you were in naive in the beginning. You tried to look for some comprehension, some justification, some relation to this person other than this nature setting that enthralled your family and you and still does and as well as Ted Kazinski. So tell us about that coming to terms.
So I have always wanted to write a life or to Ted Kaczinski since his arrest, and I think it was probably part of my need for a closure, I suppose, and you know, with writing this book, I finally decided I wanted to, And yes, I was still in addition to that, I was still searching for some kernel of good. And yes I had I had already discovered all of these horrific detailings of the murders. I had known about
the killings and the matings. But to see what then Ted was writing about them, and how he was motivated and fueled by this, and just the sheer violence and terror of it definitely allowed me to look at it in a different through a different lens, but I was still hoping for that just little piece of good. And so, you know, I thought, maybe maybe he said he's had years and to reevaluate he's been sitting in prison all
of these years. Maybe he's sorry, maybe he has regrets, And it was my attempt to provide closure by writing to him and acknowledging the fact that he fooled us, and that was really shocking when he was arrested and finding out his true identity, and then you know, also to find out, you know, if there was remorse, or if there was any sort of intelligent commentary still there, or you know, maybe his motivations had changed. And that was really what fueled me in writing to him.
What I hadn't mentioned about this book too, is that there isn't an amazing photo section. Could you tell us some of the photos that are included in this book.
Yeah, So this book is it's memoir, it's true crime memoir, it's it's my story, my family's story braided with Ted Kazinski's, and so I really wanted to add another layer of that, allowing the reader to really understand and digest our lives in a visual way as well. As brief as that may be. And in the book, I have you know me as a as a very little kid in my
innocence in the early eighties. And then alongside that, I have Ted Kaczinski as a little kid on his pony, and in this, you know, just seemingly normal childhood where
he was loved and supported and happy. And then I also have a picture of young, younger Ted but you know, definitely again a little closer to the Berkeley professor than the unibomber, arrested in nineteen ninety six, but still active in domestic terror, alongside his cabin in Montana, and that was taken by his family when they came out to visit him in the early eighties. I also show his
bike that he would ride to and from town. And then I have pictures of our family again, my dad on the mill alongside our dog, Wilie, who I discovered that Ted had poisoned. I have my dad and I and then I have my dad with my little sister Tessa, who I talk about in the book, and i'm, you know, especially in that experience with Ted looking at them through the rifle. And then I have me as a cheerleader the year before Ted was arrested, and then Ted's arrest
photos with Max Noll and Tom McDaniel alongside him. Right.
You Also, there's so much more to this book because you detail all of the crimes, You detail the reactions from the people at the statements at trial, at Kazinski's trial, the heartbreaking statements that you include again outlining the devastation that this man single handedly inflicted on a nation for seventeen years, and then of course the collateral damage to his own family, your family, and anybody that came in
contact with him. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about this incredible book, Madman in the Woods Life next Door to the Unibarmer Jamie Gearing. For those that might want to take a look at more information, is there a website or a Facebook page or other social media they might look at.
Yeah, my website is Jamie Gearing dot com and you can find me just about anywhere Instagram, Facebook, Twitter at Jamie Gearing author.
Thank you very much, Jamie Gearing, Madman in the Woods Life next Door to the Unibarmber. Thank you very much. You have a great evening, good night.
Thank you for having me. Dan.
Thank you, good night,