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You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker Bck. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Charles Lucky Luciano is one of the most researched, discussed, and dissected American mobsters of all time. His name has become synonymous with New York City's high drama gangland, days of prohibition, bootlegging, the information of the infamous Five Families, and controversy over his alleged last testament. However, there exists many fascinating and lurid tales and theories regarding Lucky's rise
and fall from the mob's top spot. Some of these stories are known but still incited debate, such as the origins of his nickname and menacing facial scars. Other legends
are not so well known to the general publication. Called from rare news articles, government documents, and numerous books written on the subject, this book will give readers a chance to discover Luciano in a way that engages the mystery of his pop culture status while encouraging further debate over the facts and fallacies that exist about his true role
in the history of the American mafia structure. The book that we're featuring this evening is Lucky Luciano Mysterious Tales of a Gangster Legend, with my special guest, journalist and author Christian Cipolini. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for green to this interview. Christian Cippolini.
Dan, thank you always a pleasure.
Thank you, always a pleasure. So let's just get right into this. I won't even ask you one of the questions I normally ask, why would you do a book
about Lucky Luciano. I won't ask you that question. What I'm going to ask you is that despite all the books, despite all the information well Lucky Luciano, all the focus on this mobster, what did you, I guess, just going into this, just beginning this look into this Lucky Luciano, what did you Why did you think that you could add something to the legend as it were?
Great question? You know what, Dan, I had tried to consume every book article on him for twenty years, just because I was always curious about history and organized crime before ever really delved into writing about it. And I think I was convinced at one time that like the last Testament of a Lucky Luciano was I mean, that
was law, that was the story. And then find out that you know, hey, hey, this has been debated for you know, a couple of decades, and anyway, you know, my publisher wanted to do this gangland mystery series with different authors. Long story, shorty asked me, do you want to take part? What do you want to do? And his daunting as it seemed, I'm like, you know what, I want to write my own little digestible book on Luciano. But what can I find or prove different? You know,
that was the goal. I hope that I succeeded in it, but that was the original idea.
Well, certainly, there's what you claim in the book, and what you deliver is that there is certainly a lot of debate over certain things that are key to this legend, to this the myth, and some are dispelled and some are explained. And obviously you're going to bring that exhaustive research that you do to the forefront here to be able to back up what you're saying. So this is just not another book about Lucky Luciano. This again, is
an important book, or you wouldn't have written it. Now let's go back to even the legend of how he came to have this nickname, but we'll go back into his early childhood. What I found was fascinating. When you talk about a criminal starting early, this guy really started early. So tell us about the origins, the real origins of Lucky Luciano.
Well, tracking it back when he arrived with his family, the second half of his family to come to New York. They were growing up in an area that was obviously poor, part of the Lower Manhattan, right next to the predominantly Julish section of town. And these kids were part of the you know, the Five Points gang that also had people like al Capone. You know, all these guys grew up together and enough to get off on a tangent.
But let's say say everybody has a choice in life. Okay, I think that that's basically you don't have to be a criminal or whatever. But when you look at the options that were offered, a lot of these ethnic groups weren't many, and Luciano and some of the Jewish kids and other Italian kids, you know, banned together and that was the route they took. And not everybody did that, but here's some kids that did.
So.
Yeah, they started young, you're talking. His first arrest was in his early teens for narcotics, and people seem to forget it wasn't all about booze back then these guys, I mean, narcotics was another big prohibited item. By the time they really started into the life of crime.
But being growing up with Jewish kids too, he knew he learned just I guess inherently the protection racket, as if we're from even even from his own childhood, just from being young, I mean he and that later alliance will be important as well. Tell us what his family life was like, what the what was his parental situation, and tell us a little bit about that.
It's best anybody can glean from it. And and definitely a lot of my peers have written more extensively on him coming over and what childhood was probably like for him, And I think I should point this out in every researcher, writer of history in general, not just organized crime, knows unless you were there, We're never going to know all the answers. Okay, weren't there, but to get a general idea his parents did probably weren't bad people. They were raising,
like a lot of parents, a bunch of kids. Charlie was one of the ones to never be home, you know. Yet he had some legitimate jobs as a kid, but he always seemed to tie those in with crime too, and yes, running into some of these Jewish kids that already had their own theft and protection rackets, and and what ended up happening is instead of beating the hell out of each other for a while, they decided to join forces. I mean, that's really a simplified way of
how things probably ended up. But then you're talking about kids that basically hung out on the street twenty four to seven doing rackets.
Right right now, what is the origin of Lucky Luciano's the moniker Lucky Luciano? And when did he actually get this moniker?
There's obviously, if anybody who knows the story of Luciano, a lot of people took it as he was named Lucky because he survived being taken for a ride, which essentially means you're picked up in a car because you're going to be killed. He survived a ride, which was a mystery in and of itself who actually did it. That's where a lot of people, myself at one time included, believes, Hey, he got nicknamed Lucky. All these guys had nicknames, you know.
There's all it seemed like every gangster virtually had a nickname his for surviving this ride in nineteen twenty nine. I do not believe that I know some of my fellow authors and researchers. Now they two I've learned from them. Don't believe everything just because most of us take it for historical fact. What I found and put in the book were things he said himself in the nineteen fifties.
Two reporters he granted interviews too, And if you take that, and again, I don't want to give everything away, but let's just say, if I could put anything to bed in this book, let's get this straight. He had the nickname Lucky well before he was taken for a ride and survived. That nickname was there, and there are a couple theories to that precursor. But you know, anyway, again, I don't want to give away too much, but let's put that one to bed.
Now there's another. There's other little myths which I don't think are as important as some of the others, but we'll deal with those. He had scars, he had a droopy eye, Yes, what is the what was the mythology about where the DROOPI came from? And the scars?
Well, the what? And this isn't given away much, but I mean, really, Luciano himself, the story he stuck to till the day he died was that he was beaten up by cops. Okay, he was picked up on a Manhattan street and left on a Staten Island street, beat up by cops looking for Jack Legs Diamond because they knew he used to run with diamond. Now, the general consensus is this beating, which was very bad, left him with the droopy I and the scars on the right
side of his face and gave him that extra sinister look. However, I started because I collect photographs. That that's really how I start to write is based off these rare photos. I was fortunate enough to acquire a close up photo of him ninety team twenty six and if you look at it, he really had a slight droop to his eye already that was already there. And no, it doesn't seem like a big, big deal, but I thought it was important to point out because hey, here's a little
another mystery. Let's throw this monkey engine. He already had a droopy eye before he was beat up. So it's yeah, like you said, not everything's as important to the greater story, but it's neat little you know, if you like those kind of little factoids.
Yeah, now what you did mention too, And I'm glad that you mentioned that early. One of the major fascinating aspects of your book, too, is the sixty photos that are included. So tell us just a little bit about those photos, because you said that's where you start, and I've never heard anyone actually make that claim, So tell us a little bit more about that and where you have access to. You know, most true crime books got thirteen fourteen pages.
So well, I don't know if it's brilliance or insanity, but a colleague of mine actually pointed out to me, He's like, I've never he said, you like to start with photos and then build your story. Yeah. Me and a friend had been collecting for several years. We try to acquire original press photos, police photos, crime scene photos.
It's a weird hobby. And I had always been a writer first, but I'm very visual, So long story short, I started collecting photographs of Luciano murdering, Carnold Rosstein's e all that was my thing. So I started to really find some what I consider gems, and I thought these have to go in the book, and a couple are really close to my heart. But yeah, there's sixty photos in there between. I mean, my my buddy and myself that have collected these and yeah, we have the originals.
It's yeah, it's like my pride and joy too it because I think it illustrates and accentuates what I'm writing about. Okay, here see the changes in history and these people because it wasn't it wasn't all about Lucky Luciano. He was not alone wolf. He had lots of friends and places and things that I wanted to capture. If that answers the question, you know, that's but I start with photos and work backwards.
Well, it's a great inclusion. I mean again, I mean it's just because people don't have the access. But with your access, with this incredible like you say, passion and fascination for this, that the reader gets this incredible bonus. And I think I love seeing news clippings of the time. I liked seeing anything from the time because and then it's it just drives home really what you're reading history, and it's just incredibly interesting history.
Really.
Now, tell us a little bit more about the because Lucky Luciano is credited for a lot of things, but he didn't get into power immediately. But tell us about what you found that might have differed from the some of the myths about his importance in terms of sort of reorganizing I guess an organization that was already there, but at least looking a little differently than tradition, with
that that the Sicilian origins had to be maintained. And tell us about the power struggle and anything that you found in you or in your research that kind of went against the official story.
I think, I think first of all, for anybody that doesn't perhaps know a lot about this, But in New York you had the era of these Sicilian mob bosses and they like to run it, you know, do business with other Sicilians period, and Luciano, being of Sicilian blood, was part of that. But he also carried on as a lot of these guys did, with other associations. Luciano, you're talking late nineteen twenties. He was doing business with Arnold Rostein, you know famous, you know, Jewish financier of
illicit business. He was doing business with Irish gangsters that Jack Legg's Diamond was in charge of. And he was working with Bugsy Siegel and Meyer Lanski in their little bug and Meyer mob. When it came till about nineteen thirty one, Luciano's Often they say, oh, he's the he became the boss of all bosses and reorganized the mafia.
And it wasn't really like that. It was more like, I believe he and his Italian and Jewish friends and associates decided it's time to change the guard and work together. Let's take out the bad element and start something new. I don't think they created a new thing. I really credit Rostein with developing the unified Dangland sort of mentality. But Luciano, from nineteen thirty one to nineteen thirty six, and it's relatively a short time, was considered the top
man or one of the top men. I don't think he was a boss of all bosses. I don't think he subscribed to that. I think there were a lot of them that were top bosses.
Sure. Now, in terms of you have, it's amazing the details that you have, everything from lucky tattoos and and everything from well, and this we'll cover this a little bit later, because this is one of the legends as well. And you cover this well because this is very important. You know, Luciano's actual role in helping the Allied forces in World War Two. So we'll talk about that just a little bit later in context. So now tell us about the Broadway starlet and her and her odd marriage.
Tell us a little bit about what you uncovered there. That's not something everyone's has written or read before, certainly no.
And you know her name, Galina orlov was her name. She was a Russian immigrant and she changed her name to gay Orlova when she decided to try, you know, her shot at Broadway. Like a lot of show girls, she frequented the same Manhattan haunts a lot of gangsters did. And it is that charismatic blore to being a gangster. And these girls were young, and you know, they liked the stuff that these guys were telling them or offering them.
She was an interesting one that I had read her name mentioned in a lot of books over the years. And I finally, you know, I want to write a whole chapter. I want to find out what happened to this woman, what was her real deal? Because she was very attractive. She seemed to be a very important part of his life for a little while. So anyway, the story, without giving a lot away, you're talking about someone who was almost as methodical in her goals and how to
reach them as any gangster was. Let's leave it at that, from marriages of convenience to wearing walking into well, i'll give you a good example. She walks into a police station when she was questioned after Luciano was arrested. She walks in wearing four thousand dollars fur and diamonds, and the cops were like, where did you get that? And she was horrified that they would ask that anyone wouldn't
have that on. It's just the whole mentality. And then it's a very sort of sad ending to the chapter in her life. I think people, I just think it was really neat to get in and dig into this woman who wasn't really written about extensively before. I hope I tapped into something interesting.
Yeah, you did, absolutely, Now tell us for our audience, because I wasn't really familiar with this at least. Wow, it was. I guess it's been a while anyway. Certainly tell us about the Last Testament of Lucky Luciano and the Mafia's story in his own words, tell us about that what you found regarding this Last Testament.
There had been debate over that book since it came out in the mid seventies, okay, whether it was legit or not, and one of the authors had died before he could even argue his point. The co author argued, no, no, it's real, okay, And then later he said, all right, well, I had to make up some of the dialogue, but it's still based on notes that were taken in interviews. A lot of our peers and other writers you know have talked about you really can't rely on the last test.
It's a fascinating read, great book, but do not believe it is history because there are actual historical documents and interviews with Luciano that I don't know tell the author sposit some of that. And I didn't base anything in
this book. I learned from my peers. Do not base anything, do not quote it, do not use it, because the only thing factual is that Martin Gosh, who wanted to produce a movie on Luciano, did meet with him many times in Italy in the late fifties to gather information and interviews that were supposed to go into a movie that was never made, and instead went into this book.
A leegency, right, But you don't know.
No, And I think I try to be pretty clear in the book too. There are a lot of things we're never going to know the whole answer to I like throwing some monkey reriches in and presenting some weird little factoids that are woven into the fabric of the greater story that's been talked about, you know. And even with Luchi Giano dying in the arms of Martin Ghost, who wanted to produce a movie about his life, there were you know, theories about, oh they did Ghost poison him?
You know what what happened? And you know, it's okay, we're not really going to know, but I think I think there's enough evidence to lead us in the right direction, and I try to put it in the book.
Well, tell us a little bit more about that without giving it away, because there's the term I had never heard before, is the Borgia cocktail. I guess that's exclusive to a certain country, no doubt. But tell us a little bit more about this, because this this character that you spoke of, Martin Ghosh, Yes, tell us a little bit more about this anyway.
Okay, Yeah, And there are people that probably aren't aware of this. Martin Ghost was uh, I don't want to say small time producer, but he had a couple things under his belt in the f fifties, an Avin Costello movie, a couple of shorts. He was actually introduced to Luciano through another man that I found by the name He went by the name of Charles Duke, who wanted to produce a movie and in fact not to get off
on something. But there were there was talk of producing a movie on Luciano's life in the early fifties that Luciano himself tried to get done way before movie talk with Martin Geosch. Anyway, Ghost kept going to Italy to meet with Luciano, took handwritten notes they were going to do this movie. Got received threat allegedly from American mafia, staying, you know, don't you do this. Luciano said, hey, you can do it, but not till ten years after I
die write a book. So that's and one of the last the last eating the two had was in an airport in Naples and Luciano was not feeling well that day. He had just been interrogated on some drug suspicion charges and he died of a heart attack in Martin Ghost's arms and Ghost was interrogated. The tabloids thought that he put something in his mouth. Really it was probably his heart pill, because Ghost knew he had a heart problem. But you know, again up for debate.
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, Now you write extensively to the basically the background at the time, the historical backdrop, but also sort of the impact, the actual impact of him as a sort of a cultural icon, his influence. Yes, tell us what you really found and that was not what you had known going into the project.
That's a tough one to answer, because almost everything that I found amazed me personally. That's why I put it in there. I mean it just but overall, I think the subject of him being a drug kingpin later in life, from the nineteen forties really on he was labeled as this international drug kingpin. Okay that I didn't I didn't quite buy him to do. I think he made money from it, probably, But was he this giant heroin and
cocaine kingpin? I have my doubts. But what I found really interesting was two of the main police investigators that were after him, an Slinger and Siragusa. These guys, I mean,
they were dead set on getting Luciano. It almost because to me, I interpreted as an obsession and I came to believe after researching this, whether Luziano had anything to do with drugs or not, these two guys were going to find a way to prove he did and when he when Luciano died, the comments that I put in the end of the book that Sarah Gusa made are actually I would think quite horrifying in today's world if someone had said this. I'm sure you read you know
what I'm talking about. It was that's obsession and to the way they spoke about it. But again, I don't want to give it away. It's Luciano became the myth became bigger than the man. If that really answers the question to me, it was like, Wow, the guy's myth got bigger than the guy really was.
Well, like you talk about Anslinger, who was very very politically motivated, and people will know him from his crusade on marijuana and drugs in general. So he was a very very visible and powerful and ambitious political this guy. So so you know, everybody wants a piece of the biggest person in the world of organized crime, including you know, the beloved politicians and lawmakers.
So right, you.
Know, he represented success for whoever we're going to bring him down. Whether he represented all of the drug industry, periody, he was really like the Osama bin Laden representing terrorism itself. I think, you know, it's.
A good analogy.
He was.
He was made the poster boy the minute he stepped into Cuba. They wanted him. They wanted him, They made him the poster boy.
Tell us how that happened. He he was in prison for thirty to fifty years. What I found interesting too, is that again it seems ironic, what was Lucky Luciano's view on prostitution and then what was what was his charges and what was the sentence before we explained how this circuits route, how he made it to Cuba.
Well, you had already mentioned about political motivation. You had a very ambitious man waging war on the mov in general New York, and that was Thomas Dewey. I don't think anyone with a straight face can deny the man had an ego as big as any gangster, and he was very politically motivated. He went after Dutch Schultz, he was going after Lefki Boucalt. Then he wanted Luciano and in similar to the Capone situation, where you can't get
him on what you know he's doing, you find another way. Capone, they got off taxes Luciano when he became the target, they decided to go after him on a massive prostitution ring. Now, Lucian and answer your question, always denied that, oh, I would never have anything to do with prostitution. Well, Dan, I think we can all agree that any top gangster was making some money off of every racket. But was he a temp he would have been so insulated from that.
What happened is is they ended up getting a conviction of yes, thirty to fifty years based on a prostitution combination is what they called it. He goes to jail and somehow, somehow an arrangement is made to release Luciano on the terms. He goes straight to exile and Italy.
What happened behind the scenes, we'll probably never know, but supposedly it was because he offered help in the war effort of World War two, and he may have were definitely meetings between the Navy and Luciano and Mayer Lanski and Luciano's lawyer and Frank Costello. But what really happened I put in the book there are a couple theories.
My honestly, what I think got him out of jail was I think they had the metaphorical file on either Dewey or Javouver, and I do believe it scared them, and I think that they made an agreement said okay, just get the hell out of the country. I really do believe that there was they had something on one of those two guys.
Well, yeah, that's a that's a bombshell. Now he is Sicilian. He goes back to Italy. The US is not Italy. So what did he do.
Well, he hated it. He hated the he was there. I think that's undeniable from everything I read in his own word, the man did not like it. And he was quick to do the next closest thing to coming to the United States, and that was Cuba. All his buddies party there. They had obviously the gambling interests were exploding. He made his way there, lived in a hotel for a little while, and by nineteen forty six he was firmly planted in Havana. And I had a great picture
of the house he bought that. You know, he ended up. He was settled. He was settled there until he was noticed.
And then what happened Again, politics collide, in business collide. So what happens, Well, he.
First he started dating a socialite from New York who loved publicity, and the Havannah newspapers were constantly following them around, which he didn't like, you know, he did not want to be noticed. And then just call it fate. He was at the big supposed crime meeting of all the bosses to discuss many subjects, and they were carousing with women.
Frank Sinatra was there, Al Capone's brother Ralph was there, and an enterprising young reporter was in the area spotted him, wrote an article about it, and an slinger saw that article. That's what set it off. Then an slinger decided, Cuba, if you're harboring him, we're going to cut off all your legitimate medical supplies kick him out.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a pretty serious threat.
Yeah, you know, I don't want to. Well, it's not really given it away, but it shows you how politics work. The United States scared the hell out of the Cuban authorities with this, and it ends up they never ever instituted the embargo. It was. It was literally empty threats, but it worked. It got Luciano arrested, It got Luciano deported, and he was back to Italy for good.
And so he had no he really held no power, exerted it, no power from Sicily. Wasn't able to do any business when.
He went back, so they say. But at the same time, then we don't know what was he really doing over there. You know, he opened restaurants or you know, he lived modestly. I do believe was he either receiving money or was involved in something. I just don't think you quit, Sure some guys do, but for the most part, it's another one of those unanswered questions. Will we ever know what Charlie was really doing when he went back to Italy later in life?
M hm?
And so.
What were all the what was all of the controversy in concerning his death? Was there there was a lot of credence to the idea that the mob had something to do with this.
They started the tabloids in Italy started the rumors that he had been poisoned, that he was involved in a multinational drug trade and had talked to the police. There were rumors again that the movie producer had poisoned him as well, and of course there there later came out that him even speaking about a movie of his life caused the mob to want to shut him up. There were so many rumors, but really, when it came down to it, basically the guy was not in good health
and he died of a heart attack that day. I mean, I really, I really doubt that there was too much wiggle room in this. I think that he did. But yeah, sure, rumor scattered and even interesting about the actor that was going to play him in the In the alleged movie they were going to make. This guy got threats, his family got threats. So I do believe the mob, the mob in America and sicily wanted this movie to never be made because they even threatened the actor Cameron Mitchell
if he agreed to translate for the film. So you're you're talking serious. They were going to kidnap his child. He had a toddler and they were They sent him letters that we're gonna we're gonna get your kid. So yeah, I mean these are credence to the threats. Of course, in fact, that was the first time an American actor has ever been threatened in that way.
Yeah, that's incredible. And if you fast forward about who knows, twenty five years or so or thirty will say and almost those things would be taboo seem to be now part of common legend, and nobody's getting upset.
Right right right. It's a lot of and that goes into what you were saying at the beginning of the show.
There are a lot.
Of things that understandably, people who do know the story or have seen some of the how can I say it crappy movies based on it, buy into this. Say, if we even go back to the scars, you know, one of the main story worry that everybody seemed to love is of the two warring mob bosses that Luciano was playing against each other, or he was like a
double agent. Really, that one of them, Salvatore Marenzano, had his men kidnapped Luciano, string him up by his thumbs, took knives and cut his face and throwed and then left him for dead. A lot of people thought that was the story four years in years, I think it's the most probably ridiculous of the theories of how Luciano
got his scars and survived the rot. I really think more realistically, yeah, he probably was beat up by somebody looking for legs diamond, and if it wasn't that, it was somebody interested in why Ross Dein was killed a year before. I buy more into those. But yeah, I mean, all these decades later and some people really think we could even talk about Boardwalk Empire. Great show, love that show, based on some real things, But when you think about it, you know, it's it's a show. It's a show, So
leave it at that. You know the truth is elsewhere, hopefully in my.
Book, hopefully my fuck. We were talking just just a second ago about the movie itself and how serious the mafia was in preventing this movie. So the production was shut down very very quickly. Obviously that kind of threat is going to scare off anybody, including Hollywood. But you have looked at that book and others that sort of well not sort of, but to study this subject that
there are scholars will say of this subject matter. What did they find in that book that even somebody like you could understand why they the mob would not want that said? Or is it was it just the spirit of the book itself, or was there something specific in that book that was covered in that book.
That's a really good question. Dan and I'll tell you what I could have gone into the whole Last Testament a lot I didn't. I just touched on why I wasn't using it, because some of my colleagues have really dissected that book and why people were skeptical that are they are researchers and authors and law enforcement that knew not right. It was actually a combination the spirit of
the book. Yeah, some of that dialogue just seen so I don't know, hollywood esque, And a lot of the facts that were given alleged facts were things that were actually proven wrong in like FBI files, I mean, and things that were said that could have easily been seen in newspaper articles or things that were already that couldn't have been known at the time. It was just a lot of stuff that other people have done a hell of a job proving. That book was probably a lot
of let's say, creative license take him. But you know, back to the movie thing, I will say there was a film actually produced then in the mid seventies by entirely different people that starred Rod Steiger and Charles Siragusta, the cop that was really adamant about getting Luciano, played himself in it. Now, how that movie got made without aggravation, I don't know. I don't I don't particularly. I saw the movie years ago and I really personally didn't impress
me much in general. But it's weird. It's a weird irony. One gets every threat in the world, and a couple of years later, here comes another one with no a problem at all. I don't know, but that's that's gang Lan legend. I mean, all kinds of weird stuff. That's what entertains us, that's what titillates us. I guess.
Yeah, it's amazing to me. Why I think I've said this before, I don't know if we've discussed it. If we have, I apologize, But but really, how when a person watches a lot of fictional stuff like I have about the Mob, all the Mob movies. Of course it's
super popular movies and sopranos in the series. Sure, and you watch that stuff, and when you do read the actual true stories, it's amazing how right lifted from the pages, these things are the most entertaining and memorable stuff in fiction on these programs, these fictional accounts is not cantional whatsoever, and the most incredible things. So it's like, Wow, it's amazing going backwards that way and going, oh, there's a source, there's a source, and again there's a source. Incredible.
Since you mentioned I really think truth is stranger in fiction. The adage is very very accurate. And I love this genre, this niche, whatever you want to call because I just happened to love digging in and finding needles in a haystack, which we didn't really talk about, but I'll throw this out there as well, an earlier question that you had asked me about, like one of the more fascinating things
that surprised me along those lines. To be honest with you, through the whole book, the coldest thing Dan I found was an interview with the actual cop this found Luciano near death in nineteen twenty nine on the side of the road. That to me made the whole thing because not only did it add to and then throw yet another monkey wrench in the theory of what happened to Luciano, it was how I found this interview with him. It was it was just a little neighborhood type section newspaper article.
The guy was retired. It was it was a few months after Luciano died. Did some little local reporter in Florida goes to his house and interviews him, and he remembered it like it was yesterday, from nineteen twenty nine as a beat cop finding Luciano on the side of the road, and what he says is to me, it was mind numbing. I'm like, this is great.
Yeah, well, it's an incredible start for like you say, for a short little interview that could have been and was overlooked for years, decades, and that in part so much knowledge and shed so much light. That is a Eureka moment.
It really was, because this was not like a syndicated article. It was just a little, you know, hometown kind of story on this guy, and it just yeah, it was the Eureka moment as I was doing this book.
Now in terms of and I'm sure my prediction, I've said to a person involved in film that I know, I said, you know, the only thing that's left is the true story of some of these mobsters. You know, they've done the Bonnie and Clyes, they've done all those guys, and they have done some stories about mobsters, fictional accounts, But I mean, I think the only things left is to take the true accounts and don't mess with them, and you'll have a blockbuster. And I know there's been some,
there's been some. I guess script's been written projects. I guess in in the in the in the making. But my question is, what do you see in the in the future with Lucky Luciano in terms of uh, i'd say an adaptation for film.
Another great question, Dan, Oh, you're killing me. These are good. I really have thought about this too, Luciano. They need I'm just gonna put out, they need to make a movie, and they need to do it based on more of the fact, and they need to do it. Uh, they need to do it a million times better than most of these biopics are done. I'll you know. I have some favorites too that I know are not historically accurate.
You know, I'm not gonna name names, but there are some really great movies that were based on some of even Luciano's cohorts that are entertaining and wonderful to watch. But I think you're right, a true blockbuster. I think Luciano's story And I'm not just saying because I wrote the book on it, because I thought this already Luciano story is worthy of a true telling, and it's entertaining and of itself right there, Truth is stranger in fiction. You don't need to make.
It up, that's right, Yeah, I mean I do think that's left. Why again, why do you need to take I mean, unless they want, unless they're compelled to always have everything in a love story, right, a love story, they're constant. But if there isn't, and that's been proven too that you don't need that con But other than that, though, I mean, really, what kind of you can say it's a true story? And I don't see why people wouldn't clamor to go see that.
Oh sure, And I mean obviously in terms of making a film, you know, you'd have to make a twenty seven hour film to really capture it all on any of these guys, I think Luciano in particular. But if you're going to make a two hour, two and a half hour biopic really with somebody like him, you really do have a virtual ensemble cast of gangsters that are equally fascinating. I mean, you have no shortage of characters that are real and fascinating. You have no shortage of
love stories. Sadness, some comedy, you name it, it's in there. I agree with you one hundred percent that if they just looked at it that way and say, yeah, I think it would be a hell of a movie. But I thought that for twenty years before I wrote this book. You know, That's part of why I wrote this book, because I visualize as I'm doing it again. It goes back to the pictures. I'm very visual and I write from that what I'm you know, looking at our envisioning.
In my head, I see a movie playing out, Dan, I see you starring. I see you in a starring role.
That's interesting. Yeah, Now what we didn't get into, and I think we've got a little bit of time. What I thought was interesting is the is the power struggle that's always been sort of dumbed down for Lucky Luciano and simplified oversimplified obviously, But what I found one of the stories, and it won't be giving away the whole story that you cover, but it was interesting to hear about the the effort to try to bump off Lucky Luciano.
At one time with the twenty five thousand dollars up front and another twenty five to finish, tell us a little bit about the characters and the players in this little story.
Well, at the time, yeah, for the overview, Luciano had been running with Legsteamond, he had been working for Arnold Rostein, but he was really employed by Joe the Boss Masaia. Joe the Boss was in a bitter war with Salvatore Marenzano. Luciano decided to play both sides. How he did it, and I do believe he gathered a lot of his colleagues, Jewish and Italian, that agreed, we need to get rid of both these guys, so they took out Joe the Boss first. A few months later, Luciano goes to work
for Marenzi. Marenzano probably never trusted Luciano or his pals, figuring if you knocked off my enemy, you're probably capable of doing it to me. So what the story goes that Marenzano hired a crazy gunman by the name of
mad Dog Cole. Mad Dog Cole was hired to show up at the office and Marenzano was going to have Vito Genoviez and Lucky Luciano come to the office for a meeting where Cole was going to kill them problem was Luciano and his buddies already got wind of it, showed Instead of Luciano showing up, they sent what I believe was probably Bugsy Siegel, Maybegonis, maybe Sam red Levine. Four guys showed up, said they were tax men, walk in the door, lined everybody up against the wall, and
then shot and stabbed Marenzano. Vincent Cole happened to show up to do his job, sees what happened, turned around and left and supposedly was happy he got his twenty five thousand up front and he didn't care anymore. If that's how the story goes, I personally believe it probably went a lot like that.
Yeah, that's crazy.
You can't make this stuff up. We'll never know if that's what really happened, but there you go. If that is truth. Who could make a story up like that? It's just incredible.
Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, it's fascinating. Well, very much like this book and your take on Lucky Luciano. You're in depth research uncovering new facts about Lucky Luciano and just adding to the legend. Very fascinating read. Tell us about how people can contact you if they're so interested, you must do the Facebook thing and have a website. Tell us how people can contact you if they've been so inclined after listening about Lucky Luciano this evening.
Well, sure I have. My website is gang Land Legends dot com. I'm on Twitter at sip the Scallion, c I P The Scallion. I'm on Facebook, Christian Zippolini. You can follow me, a friend me, tell me you love or hate my work. I'm pretty cool with all of that. I like spirited debate for sure. And let me see what else. Well, I'm finishing up my third book right now and that should that should be out next February. And my first book's on there, So if anybody's interested, I stop buy and say hello.
What is your what's your name of your first book? I know I know what it is, but us about your first book and tell us what's the name of the project or what is the new project? You say this coming out next March.
Well, my first book was on Detroit hitman, Chester Wheeler Campbells Diary of a MotorCity hit Man, the Chester Wheeler Campbell's Story. And my third book is another one in the Gangland mystery series. This one is on Murder Incorporated. H Yes, a daunting task indeed, but it comes out in February. You can already see it on Amazon right now. It's due for an early February release, and it's going to be packed with a lot of really cool photos too,
and some great side stories. I'm not rewriting Murder inc Just like I didn't want to rewrite Lucky Luciano's story. It's more digestible, more the funds that you know what it is. It's the filler, Dan, it's the filler. It's the it's the good stuff.
It's the good stuff. It's the meeting.
It is it is. It's the crazy, salacious tales in between. That's what it is. So there you go.
Well, I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about Lucky Luciano. That's been fascinating. Thank you very much, and we look forward to hearing from you again real soon.
Thanks Dan, I always a pleasure.
Thank you, Christian, good night bye,