LOU AND JONBENET-John Wesley Anderson

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notorious unsolved murder investigations in American history. Boulder police fixated on John Binney's parents as suspects. Needing investigative help, the Boulder DA brought in legendary homicide detective Lou Smitt. However, he was soon disenchanted with law enforcement's obsession with the Ramsey family as the primary suspects excluding other possibilities, Smitt resigned but continued to work on his own time and at his own expense, determined to find justice for John Benay.

He determined the Ramsey family was not involved in her death, but died in twenty ten before he could identify the killer. Thousands of people attended his funeral service, including John Ramsey and the detective's lifelong friend and colleague, John Anderson, along with a handful of retired detectives. Anderson and Smith family

continued to pursue justice. Aiste on Smith's work now for the first time and Lou and John Beney Anderson tells the story of Smith's investigation and why the Smit family team now believes that the killer can be identified. The book that we're featuring this evening is Lou and John Beney, A Legendaries Lawman's Quest to Solve a Beauty Queen's Murder, with my special guest author, John Wesley Anderson. Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for this interview. John Wesley Anderson.

that this case is still solvable. The DNA is good enough that it can identify who the killer is, it can show who the killer is not, and it can exclude people of interests that have been brought up in the case, such as the Ramsey family.

This is nineteen seventy two. Tell us about Andrew Lewis lou Smidt, what you already knew about him, what was his already his background that you knew about, And tell us about the relationship that you gradually and eventually developed with Loosemid.

carry again. But at eighteen, I was hired full time by the Colors Springs Police Department as a cadet and for the most part we were given administrative jobs that

worked in communications, evidence, then cound lot. I worked in the Identication record section was my first job for a year and a half and that's where I met Lou and the detect At the time, the detective bureau was just down the hall from the ID Bureau Records identication, and whenever detecteds needed to see if there was a bug shot on a person over they if they had higher records or anything and file, they came to the Identification ID Bureau counter and cadets as well as civilians

would ask the detectives what is it that you need? And Lou really stood out from one of the very first times I've met him there. He was so thorough, so engaging. He was just a very polite, humble man, and so I really enjoyed that interaction and went out of my way whenever he asked for something that was related to a case. In the middle of that not we worked shift work, so in the middle of the night I'd often read the unsolved cases, and when lou had come in and talked to him about those cases,

because he's were un solders today called gold cases. And so when he filed a report, I'd go through his supplementary reports to see how he detailed an interview or an interrogation or a search board. And he clearly stood out from the other detectives just he was so terbole and he became kind of an early mentor role model for me.

and scene. And the stronger you can connect those three points true physical evidence, through interviews with witnesses, through a statements conventions, through interviews with the victim of their life,

the stronger your case becomes. And what Lou would do is he would go to extraordinary debts to prove that transfer theory and document extensively well, what was taken from the scene, What might the suspect have with them in his possession if we get a search wark what did he leave at the scene.

death investigations side investigations. Work a number of major cases there, and he had experience in over two hundred murder investigations to include pennsul murder, that kid Netmber in Colorado's or in El Paso County Outsyagoma Springs, Colorado, where he was able to take the same physical evidence that had been there all along in a cold case that was four years old, had in languished of a young girl by

the name of a HEATHERD. On Church and within eleven weeks he had that suspect, I identified it in custody in that suspected up pleading guilty to this first degree murder and later pled guilty to a second counter of first degree murder. And that was all that Lou Smith's worked with he and his team detectives.

which we were five murders. Tell us a little bit about Lou and his involvement in this case, a very tragic case where Aaron Kelsey, Grammer's younger sister had a job here in Clora Springs at a restaurant and a group of African American arm robbers came in to rob the restaurant, left without any money at Karen, who was dating one of the other employees that were one of the cooks, was waiting for him to get off and as the Robberty's suspects for leaving the restaurant. They abducted

Kieran and she was brutally raped and murdered. And this was one of a string of cases that these suspects were involved in, and I was only on the scene on one of these. I was a young rookie police officer by that time, and I of course knew Lou from the time I'd been at police cadet. But Lou was one of the detectives on one of the scenes that I was present at. But he had the ability to look at the evidence of all of these different cases.

I think there were five that he ended up late together with the same group of suspects, those of whom were at the time for Carson soldiers for Carson is a large military base here in the Color Springs, Colorado area, and ended up getting convictions on both Borbaden and Glenn.

And the reason I kind of bring out those earlier cases is to show the complexity of the investigations and his capability of a detective to see things and a lot of other detectives myself included, may have overlooked, and he had the experience and knowledge to apply those investigative

skills on cases successfully. So when he was hired to be part of the Boulder District Attorney's Office Ramsey Task Force, he brought all that experience with him and that was sorely needed because the Boulder Police Department did not have experienced homicide detectives. For people not familiar with Boulder, Colorado, it's a bedroom community outside of Denver, Colorado, the state capital. It's a beautiful community. It has the state at Coloro

State University is their large campus. There's some high tech industry there, but it's a smaller community where you don't get a lot of major crimes to include home sides. Now, you just mentioned that Lou Smith's involvement with Boulder Caiado Police Department and this task force, the Ramsey Task Force, tell us where you are in your career at that time.

You talked about that you gained invaluable experience being involved with Low seeing how he operated from the beginning right to the conviction, through the entire process, even the following

two perpetrators we talked about. He had asked you to come along to that interview, so very very interesting how he got how involved you were in learning from Lou Smidt tell us about the circumstances in which he is involved with the Ramsey case, and what is his belief initially about the Ramseys and their field.

a reference to the Bulder DA. At that time I had been elected the sheriff in Alpass County. Hola Spring is the county seat. Boulder is about an hour and a half in a north and a little west of where I lived at the time, and when I became the sheriff in nineteen ninety four, I was elected. I started Janior mccamp in ninety five and Lou became my captain of detectives. Unfortunately, his wife, Barb had been diagnosed

with cancer and was undergoing some treatment. So Lou ended up retiring from the county from the Sheriff's office, had already previously retired from the police as and I and that so he had gone into retirement. When the Boulder DA called him, he was Alexhander. The DA Lou out of retirement to be a part of this task force.

So going in. Before Lou started first day with the task force, he and I had talked when he gave me heads up that the DA may be calling me, and we both thought, again, just from living to information from the media and what the police department had put out there, this was probably going to be a pretty straightforward case. It sounded like initially that it had to have been a family member, since there was reportedly no

footprints in the snow, no forest entry. And what Lou said is, well, I think it's probably just a matter of supporting through in the family was responsible. But you know, within probably a week or two, it wasn't very long. Actually, the next time I spoke to Lou, I asked him how things were going in Boulder, and the first thing he said is, Johnny, there's something wrong with this case.

He said, The evidence doesn't make with what we're being told, and the more he got involved in the case, the more he was perplexed with what is being told by the police to the media and to the public into other law enforcement was not at all the truth. There was forced entry into the home in the basement. There was no footprints in the snow on the south side

the house because the snow had melted. In Colorado, when you have a southern facing the home or business that the sun warms the snow there more quickly than on the shaded side, so the snow had already melted. And Blue came to the belief that there had to have

been an intruder who came into the home. And when he brought that to the attention of the Boulder detectives, they were incensed he was not going along with what their theory had been it was a family member, and whenever he pointed out physical evidence to the contrary, he was dismissed and really chastised for not going along with what they were saying. I know I'll be criticized too by Boulder and other law enforcement agencies for speaking out, but Lou had the courage to say, this is just

not right. The work the case is as long as he could tolerate it for a year and a half. But when the Boulder Grand Jury was being in panel to indict the parents, Lou resigned in protest and he wrote a letter, a very heartfelt letter to the district attorney and like Senator who had hired him, and he said, I just cannot be a part of this injustice. He said, it just is unethical. And so he resigned in protests and had to fight his way to get in to testify at the grand jury.

Family was so supportive of this book and helping get the truth out there that I had restricted access to six hundred and thirty two slides that he had put together in his lifetime, a spreadsheet of eight hundred and eighty three columns I mean rose fifty four callum of each of these spreadsheets. This spreadsheet, each the cells over forty seven thousand potential pieces of information. The report, the Boulder Police report on this investigation is over one hundred

thousand pages. And he had all of this information on his computer and his investigative notes. And what I realized was what he left behind his legacy was this investigation that now I was in a unique position to write about. I had been with him on so many of these cases.

So got to the point where I felt, you know that the family deserves this information to come to help public deserves to know the truth and if I don't write this story, well, then who is I apologized, Dan, I kind of went off on a tangent there, and I don't know that the answer your question originally, But can you respond and get me back on track if I took this off on the Sidebarder.

and see how this tragedy unfolded. Tell us about five point fifty two and Patsy Ramsey's cult into nine one one and what happens when Boulder police respond.

he introduced me to both Patsy and John Ramsey. Patsy passed away four years after the worker at the age of forty nine, but I have since then been in contact with John Ramsey as well as his son, John Andrew Ramsey.

Bennie's father. As the family wakes up that morning, Patsy the mother goes down the huge home three level above ground and then a basement, and she's going down from the upper level, which is where the master bedroom suite was. As she's going down the spiral staircase on the bottom step, she finds this three page ransom note that the killer had laughed saying that they have their daughter and if they're not paid this ransom demand one hundred and eighty

thousand dollars, then it should be murdered. And so she runs upstairs to the second floor, which is where John Benney's bedroom was, finds the bed empty, screams out. John Ramsey, who is upstairs in the master bedroom, comes down. They search the house, they can't find her. Immediately, John Ramsey tells Patsy, now call the police.

also goes to sleep. He's on that same level. So it's been a long day for them. Christmas Day everybody is tired, and they're trying to prepare for the next day because they were going to be leaving early in the morning. John Ramsey is pilot, then he would at the time his own plane, and they were going to fly to their baby ship home in the four Ramseys,

John Patsy, John nam Peru. They were going to catch commercial flight from Denver to Florida, where they were going to board the Disney CRUs who was a lot of exciting time head that they had been planning.

for assistance. One of the good things that happened is there's other officers, supervisors and the crime lab that arrives and they do photograph the scene early on, and those photographs were important for Lou to be able to determine that there was a window standing open in the basement. It was a window that had been previously opened by John Ramsay munstertly when he had been locked out of

the home. And Lou saw that there was this large green suitcase propped up below the window that he theorized might have been used by the suspect and exiting the home. So there was some good photography at the crime scene that was used later on.

pointed out that that window was standing open. He said, that's the window that I got in that I'd broken before, and he said that suitcase wasn't there, that doesn't belong there. Inside the suitcase was two important things. That was not John Benney's suitcase, but inside was one of her Barbie dolls in one of her favorite books, a Doctor Zeus's Book.

And what Lu theorized is that the suspect had intended to remove John Benny from the home by being inside that suitcase, and when he was preparing that, he obviously wanted her to have a book and a doll and so Lu believed that she was alive when that suitcase was positioned below that window. But for whatever reason, whether or not, they weren't able to it's window, the suitcase through the window. But that's an important part of showing that there was an attempt to kidnap.

amounts of money one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars. And you write, when John was asked what the one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars might be, that specific amount that was there was blank checks or there was indications of that amount of money which was a bonus for that year of his work, so that the perpetrator could have seen some evidence of that specific number, one hundred and

eighteen thousand. So they were arranging. He was arranging to get that money in that ensuing seven hours before he was asked by a friend and the Detective Aren't to go search the house once again. He opened that door that had not been previously open, and he discovered John Bennet on her back, her hands tied with sort of a string like material, and a black duct tape on her mouth. Tell us what he does and as a result, obviously contaminates this crime scene.

came and went. Crime scene people came and went. Nobody looked into that behind that door for seven hours until Detective Aren't asked John Ramsey to take one other man that was there a friend in searched the home. The paychecks. I should mention that John was Ramsey was paid a bonus at the beginning of the year for the one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars, and that amount was on each of the paycheck steps that was subsequently printed throughout

the year. Since this was the end of the year, there were paycheck steps, John explains throughout the house, So anybody could have looked at that paycheck step and seeing that mount one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars. That was his best guess of where that amount came from. Other than that it really had no value to him.

front to the back eight inch skull fracture. Another expert had later determined that it was equivalent to person falling off a three story building and landing on their head. What Lou believed is that had to have been inflicted such as violent blow, probably had some kind of a blunt object. And when he saw that photo of the baseball bat near the butler door on the north side of the house, he thought that was significant for two reasons. The butler door on the morning of the twenty six

was found to be unlocked, that no forced entry. Didn't know if it was unlocked the night before when the neighbors, one of the officers unlocked that door and left open. But when you go in that butler door. Lu pointed out that theviral staircase where the note was found was very close to that butler door, so he thought that was significant. There's a second baseball bat that Lou noticed in the exterior Creansine photos taken that morning on the

south side of the house. Now the Ramsays were asked, are those baseball bats yours? And they said no, Neither of the baseball bats were theirs. They didn't recognize them. However, they did say it's not beyond the possibility that some of the neighbor kids who came over and loved to play with Burke and John Benney, that they might have brought the baseball bats over there, but they thought that they were not part of any of the toys that

the family owned. Salutha that baseball bat, especially on the north side, could be very significant.

WillFull kill homicide family. So immediately within forties of the murder, the detectives had reached the conclusion that the parents were responsible for that murder. And what's tragic is in the fifteenth of January nineteen ninety seventh, so within three weeks of the murder, the lab report came back on those articles that were submitted for biological testing, as well as

other lab examinations. But the fingernail scrapings that were obtained during the autopsy on the twenty seventh of December nineteen ninety six, as well as the panties that John that he was worrying does identifying DNA that excluded the Ramsey family specifically John Ramsey, Burke Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey, a total of ten people whose DNA blood was submitted. One of those people that's named on that report is Patsy Ramsey.

What's said is on that same day, December twenty or December thirtieth, nineteen ninety six, the Bowlder Police Department is holding a press conference and during the press conference, the Public Information Office for PIO makes the statement that they had obtained blood samples from all of the Ramsey family except for Patsy Ramsey, and the PIO makes some kind of a comment about perhaps she was too distraught to comply. Well,

that's a lie. That is not true, and they knew it was not true because the detective who's in charge of the evidence has just submitted a form with all of their names submitted the biological samples. One or two possibilities either the PIO just misspoke and it's an inverting mistake, or it was a deliberate, intentional distortion of the truth.

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address to try ZipRecruiter for free. ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder Again, that's ZipRecruiter dot com slash m r der. ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire Now. We talked about the philosophy that Lousimid had, and of course subsequently you have is that the belief that the perpetrator brings things to the crime scene and then takes things away from the crime scene. Tell us what loose Smith investigated in terms of what was left and what more importantly the killer took with them.

was torn, you could make those together. But nowhere in the Ramsey home were there any black duct tape roles found. Ever. Secondly was the white parachute cord known as pachord five point fifty that was used by the suspect to tie their wrists with slip knot and then also a separatist used to fashion the garat that she was strangled with. There was no other pursuit cord found anywhere in the home.

That was another item that had been brought in. The other thing that Lou did was he showed that there were two marks wound patterns, one on the right side of John Beni's cheek on the right side look her ear, and the other one on her back, and Lou believed those were made by a stun gun, where there was no stun gun in the possession of the ramsays they had never bought one, they didn't know anybody who owned

a stun gun. There was not one found in the crime scene or anywhere in the home by the police. So that was another item that Lou said had been brought into the crime scene by the suspect, and he also took that item with him when he left. But the most important thing that he took with him, Luke

point out, was his DNA. He left DNA both into the fingernails on the panties and then later in two thousand and eight, another lab report verified that there was touch traced DNA that was compatible with the DNA on the finger nails and the paeanties that was found on John Beannese Long John since she was wearing for pajama bottom. So there's three sources of DNA that was compatible with one another in two thousand and eight that excluded the family. It also came back and showed it was mail DNA.

footwear being worn by any of those people. So Lou their eyes that it's probable that the suspect who entered the whole it was wearing high tech boots.

anything to do with the assault itself. In terms of all the things we're missing from the home, it makes no sense where they would have gone to if they were in that home and it was searched thoroughly. Let's talk about how Lou wants to make a presentation to the prosecutor in this case and how a grand jury was impaneled and the results.

to the grand juror. And he said in his letter that there's evidence here of an intruder that needs to be shown. Instead, the special prosecutor for the grand jury contacted Lou and said, you're not going to be allowed to testify for the grand jury, and we want all of your case reports and the slide presentation back. You shouldn't have any of that information. Lou had to hire, didn't hire that. He atteamed legal services through two attorneys

pro bono. That they didn't charge him for this, but they represented Lou and argued that the information Lou had, he didn't take anything from the Boulder Police or the DIAISM because they already had that. He just had copies of the autops report, copies of the grand scene photos, copies of different documents police reports that came from their

file in CBI reports for example. So what the decision was Since these were already in the possession of the Boulder Police, the decision was made that he would be allowed to testify. He asked for three hours and only gave you two hours. Not sure which slides he got to present and that limited amount of time, but he did get to fulfill his request to testify. He later told me that it was a very difficult, challenging examination.

In presentation, he said he was never more rudely treated by an attorney or by members of the grand jury as he experienced during that session.

were indictments against both Patsy Ramsey and John Ramsey. For some it wasn't for homicide, it was some lesser crime will fold something about I don't have it here in front of me, but subjecting the child to dangerous situation or something like that. Those charges were never filed, so that grand jury returned to true Bill, which is why Luke could talk about it. But the parents were never charged with those crimes, primarily in Low's belief was that

they couldn't be proven. In fact, the district attorney said that during a press conference that the grand jury has concluded their investigation, but there's no evidence to substantiate any wrongful doing. But what also, what the da knew was that the parents were represented by major law firm out of Denver, and no doubt the district attorney knew their store this was going to be Lou Smith, and this was a case that against appearance, they could not be proven.

But the statute limitations expired after three years. So that's another reason why we think the grand jury transcripts should be released.

meet Lou and flew into Colorado Springs. I was there when Lou met with Chris Christoffers and we spent the day together. It was an interesting experience, and that documentary did have a lot of success when it was released.

stun gun that was used. And the importance of that cannot be understated or overstated, because and lose bind that went to prove the intent of the killer was immobilized not to kill, but to mobilize the victim in the home, which goes with the kidnet for ransom intent. So Lou ended up doing to prove that it was a stun gun was He purchased an adult sized pig, a full grown pig with a coroner out of the Denver metro area, had the pig euthanized, and then applied the stun gun.

He found a stun gun of the same make and model that he theorized was used and used the pig to recreate the stun gun marks, which came back identical to what was shown on John Benay's back. The distance between the two probes on the stun gun is important. Masure three point five centimans between the two probes, which did identify a aircaser stun gun that had been used, and Lou was able to acquire that exact model.

person here, their DNA needs to be checked. And he tapped on his spreadsheet of eight hundred and eighty three entries what four tier systems. So as he learned more about an individual, they would move up to the top tier. So he continued until he passed away, feeding this information to the mystery or to the police department and trying

to get them to follow some of these leads. The problem he had was that the parents still remained under the umbrella of suspicion with Boulder Police detectives, and any time that Lou or anyone else would try to say, you know, maybe these other people should be looked at, there was just this pushback from the Boulder police. We felt that too. As a team. After Lou had passed away, our Smith family team met with a Boulder law enforcement on two occasions, and we felt the same thing every

time we brought up somebody that should be pursued. There was just I was met with the lack of any interest at all.

cancer returned, and then she died shortly thereafter. But Lou had established a very close relationship with John and Patsy for two reasons. Not only were they grieving parents and had first hand information on this case. But Lou also wanted to make sure that he kept that line of communication open so that he could on a person of interest. He could call them and say, you know, was this person here ever employed by X Graphics, John's Ramsey's business,

So he purposely kept that line of communication open. When Patsy was diagnosed with cancer and was in hospice in Atlanta, Lou flew from Color Springs to Atlanta to spend a little bit more time with her about this case, hoping some information might come out that you would have been lost. So he documented very carefully each of those meetings that he had with Patsy Ramsey and also with John Ramsey.

gotten as far as we have. Dave passed away also to cancer on the twenty four year anniversary of John Bedey's death December twenty sixth twenty and left a real void our with our team, and it was one of the other reasons why I decided I needed to get this book written and I relied so heavily on date with his thoroughness of documenting or interview, surveillances or reports that when he was gone, he right before he passed away impact our last face to face conversation, he asked

me to come over to his house and pick up his notes in his case file. He had a three ring binder that he had put together. And so I decided that I needed to make concentrated effort getting this case docsment as best I could in this this book for me, knowing that you know, as this may be my best opportunity to do that as well.

police really understand their case all that well. I think that there's been so much misinformation disinformation, and it's such a complex case with over one hundred thousand reports. I think that there may be some misperceptions or misinformation within the Boulder law enforcement community. Do they know that this

DNA excluded the family? Was that report well known? I know Lou was still at the District Attorney's office in Boulder when it came to light, but that was like six or seven months after it was turned over to the police. So has something happened to some of the evidence, to some of the reports? How retrievable is that information? For example, Lou knew that there were a total five forensic handwriting examiners who looked at the note that the

ranting note and had varying results. Some said that they couldn't exclude Patsy or one in particular said, and I think this gets misinterpreted that she may have written the note, and then that's represented that she did write the note. But there were other examiners who said they couldn't confirm that she had written note. But there was a really important one that lou had identified a Friensic examiner who gave the Frenzy his expert opinion that Patsy Ramsey was

not the author of the note. She did not write the note. But this is another thing that I think Blue brought out that other people just either didn't know or ignored, was that the Ramseys both took and passed polygraph examinations by one of the leading polygraph operators in the US at the time. And one of the questions that was asked both of them was do you know who murdered John Bennie? And they said no when they passed that question. But a specific question that went to

Patsy was did you write the note? And she said no and passed that part of the examination that results that were validated by an independent polygraph operator. Now I know people say, well, you know, polygraphs can't be used in court and that's why they're not admissible. They had both of the parents failed the polygraph exam examination, everybody would have said, let's see, you know that shows that

they were involved. Now, as a detective, we used polygraphs and the results of the polygraphs extensively on major cases. But what we always knew was, well, you have to confirm what the polygraph says with a physical evidence. So when we have forensic examiners such as what Lou had found out, or he's now retired, a US Secret Service handwriting expert who said Patsey did not write the note, and then she passes a polygraph and she not write the note, how much of that information is known too

bolderbal enforcement and known to the public. And those are things that Lou tried to communicate through the various appearances that he did on different shows and TV shows and

through documentaries, but it was ignored it. So what I've tried to do is continue to lose work and continue to get the truth out there in the written form, in publishing some of his slide presentations to give references not only not just an opinion that he had, but what's the original source, what's the physical covenant?

That offer was ignored. So what we did is we took the initiative and I sent a meeting beques back to the Boulder DA in the police requesting a second meeting. The District Attorney did return that email and he said that any future meeting or investment have beg We're dated through Commander Tom Trehillo of the Boulder Police Department schedule the meeting if I have, if I'm available, I'll try

to stop by. So the second meeting was at the Boulder Police Department with Commander Trehio, Commander Gossip and the District Attorney was able to and during that meeting. This was during COVID, so we kept our team presidence just Indy Smith, Marron and I were in a parent representatives, but we did offer to come back up and go through lose Slight presentation in detail. We offered to give them as hard copies of all six hundred and thirty

two slides. We gave them actionable information. We gave them our top twenty list of persons of interest. We even list of the independent Eliminada through DNA collection esting efforts. I think there was probably eight or nine on that confidential list at that time. We shared with them the other people that we were full into their cooperation and

their trust and the refuse any future meetings. They just completely cut off all phone email exchanges, to the point that after some time, when Commander Trihio refused to return my email's or phone calls, I put it Maavis Herald and specifically asked for a meeting with her, and she wouldn't even give me the courtesy of a return phone.

We do have the genetic markers that lou had. Initially there were tan genetic workers in ninety seven. Since then in two thousand and eight they're additional course, so there was at least fourteen genetic markers.

that happened in December. December sixth, the last year of twenty twenty two, Older Police disclosed a media release of the results of an internal investigation that showed that Detective Tom Trahiel and four other investigators were being disciplined for misconduct and specifically not investigating or thoroughly investigating their case load.

They did not say that it was the John Binney case, but there was discipline to include Commander Traheu being removed from the supervisor over the investigations division and put on midnights in patrol. So we hoped to do and after that meeting, I sent another meeting request to the police chief as well as the DA and the commanders involved with well Or Police on the investigation, asking for a meeting and gave them to the end of January of

twenty twenty three to respond. They never never called, never TERMINI never accepted art or requests for a meeting. Helped share within the evidence that clearly shows that the Ramsey family are not involved and that this DNA can be used to eliminate additional persons of interest and hopefully identify.