LIST OF 10-C.L. Swinney

and I have a question for you. What do you do when you win?

meant nothing to him but a necessary sexual inconvenience. Then, by a stroke of chance and aggressive police work, the wheels of justice stumbled upon a lead, nothing more than a line sheet of paper that read list of ten. But shortly after its discovery, a task force was created and the serial killer was nabbed. This book is about the victims he left behind, not the person who took their lives. I will never condone such actions, nor will

I try to rationalize behavior. He will go to his grave, hopefully sooner rather than later, knowing the identity of four women from his fabled List of Ten. It's a sick way of showing people he's still in charge. His name is Joseph Naso, and this book will grip you from the beginning and won't let you go until the final word. The book they're featuring this evening is List of Ten, The True story of serial killer Joseph Naso, with my special guest, journalist and author C. L. Swiney. Welcome to

the program, and thank you very much for greening this interview. C. L.

name popped up. And as soon as I started reading some of the details of the case just so I could glean from the internet, I was hooked on the case, mainly because what I kept reading was his victims were prostitutes, and a lot of stuff that came out about the case was just kind of categorizing women in a light

that I wasn't a fan of, especially prostitutes. My background is law enforcement, and so I've dealt with and worked with prostitutes in the past, and I know them to be people, and so this case is mostly about victims that were prostitutes, and I thought to myself, you know, it's a local case. I have access to data and stuff that I'm going to need to write a good, solid book, but I could also try to track down the victims' families and try to paint a picture of

the victims and give them a voice. I mean, that was my goal all along. So that's kind of what drove me to get involved with this case.

boyfriend named Benjamin Bennett, boyfriend slash pimp. So tell us this about her and her son Shane, and just what she was really like, what she had experienced in her life, and how she was how she got to this position in January nineteen seventy seven.

pretty sad. As far as her family life, she grew up in a home environment that was described by her brother and half sister as violent. There was a lot of violence in the house. Her mother beat the children quite a bit. She beat all the kids. She didn't really single out any of her siblings, but rock Scene was the victim of quite a bit of physical abuse. Not sexual that that I could be determined, but physical

for sure. And then her biological father passes away, and then her mom remarries, and this guy is just as abusive as the as her biological father was. So she was a fighter. She found herself leaving the house and eventually running away from the home, trying to get away from the physical and mental abuse that occurred in her house. And in what happens a lot of times when kids

leave their homes, they end up on the streets. And you know, it sounds crazy to say this, and I've been in law enforcement for seventeen years, but sometimes the streets are more bearable than their own homes, and that was kind of Roxine's thing. She felt more comfortable on the street than she did in her own house. Yet that was her mom and her biological father had passed, but her siblings were there, so she kept coming back to that chaotic environment. So she had a a childhood

that was extremely difficult. Then she was exposed to abuse, both physically and mentally. She experienced her father passing away, and then a new man came in her life, an adult figure, and he was also physically abusive. There was a lot of drug abuse in the home, a lot of alcohol abuse in the home. So Roxine just basically

struck out trying to make her way in life. Unfortunately, when she did that, she ended up becoming a prostitute and running into what you did what you mentioned earlier, Benjamin. Strangely enough, though, ben Ben actually really actually loved rox Scene and this whole story when it starts to open up and I started digging into her murder. Benjamin was involved with the case. At one point he was considered a suspect, but he later helped actually with the investigation,

so it went full circle for Benjamin. But when she was a prostitute. She ended up being courted by this Joe Nassau character, and at the time he had already been with numerous prostitutes. He had committed hundreds of rapes across the United States and landed in the Oakland area, the Bay Area proper and ended up with Roxine, And that was Joe's first murder. He paid her for sex they had. Joe needed to try to strangle women to get himself aroused and to reach an erection. I was

one of them, you know. More disgusting things about him was that that need to do that and overpower women to reach orgasm. But with Ropscene's case, he did that and then he strangled her and then took her body away. But he did all matter of factly, very calmly. He knew of a place out in Fairfax, which is the north end of the San Francisco Bay Area, and literally disposed of her body on the side of a road.

knows where rock scene is. There's an address where he's going to go to Foothill Boulevard here. So she gets there and you describe what she sees in this strange place and what she sees the photo. So tell us a little bit more because it's it's fascinating as the introduction of your book to find out Benjamin is so close people are so close to apprehending him on this one first murder. Tell us, as you do in the book, a little bit about this incredible scene.

they didn't know who he was. They just knew that this John, which was Joe Nasso, John being the term used for people who solicit prostitutes, had been on the street, had been around and looking for women to pay for sex, and so he wasn't He was a stranger, but not

a stranger. And so Ben gives the signal yes, you know, it's fine, and then he takes he allows Roxcene to go with Joe, and he knows he lives over on Foothill, but he doesn't know or he thinks he knows where it is, but he ends up kind of making a mistake. So so, like you said, rox Scene shows up, she gets into this apartment, and she's starting to see stuff that in mind, you she's she lived on the streets, she's been a prostitute, she's been exposed to things that

the average person hasn't seen or or heard of. And she gets into this apartment and she's starting to see stuff that just starts to make her kind of wonder. And so the description of what was in the the apartment, you know, specifically mannequin's, uh, women's clothing like pantyhose, photos on like the coffee table of women that appear to be partially dressed. Some may even be unconscious. She starts to get kind of a feeling there's there's got to be that that, oh my gosh, you know what am

I doing here? This doesn't seem right. But at the same time, she's seen a lot in her life, her short life, and so and she's also trying to close the deal, if you will, as far as making this transaction. So I think she gets to a point where it's like, I got to get out, and it's too late. Joe Nasso has figured it out. She gets hit over the head and is and this this information I'm giving you is from the autops these and stuff, so you know

it's backed by medical support. But she basically gets knocked out over the head and Joe has his way with with her body. Basically he allows her to uh, he kills her. He's now excited. He has his way sexually with her, and then he was hoping to get this

this shot. And what he what Joe was talking about when he says the perfect shot was he wanted to capture what a woman's face looked like when they knew that death was near, kind of a fear of you know, concern, panic, that kind of that kind of image is what Joe was trying to capture and what and what was in a lot of those photos on that coffee table. So he doesn't kill her right away, but she ends up roxying,

regains consciousness. Uh, and now she's trying to just survive, and humans will do a lot to try to survive. She knows she's in the bad spot. She knows that this is not a joke. She knows it's not a sexual thing. This is a danger, like I need to get out, And she considers and thinks about her kid, and you know, she's she's trying to get out. Joe starts yelling at her a lot, and he's he's just basically at a point where he hadn't really considered a

murder before, but he did this time. And he has a rant and rave telling her how she's, you know, just like all the other women, he's better than them, that kind of thing, which was kind of an undertone throughout his the rest of the murders that he would commit. But at some point he decides that I've got to kill this girl, and so he basically strangles her to death, and it's just, you know, it's a release for Joe.

So he ends up murdering Rock Scene and now he's got to figure out what to do with her body. But before he can even get that far, Ben, because time has passed, Ben is looking for ROX scene.

have discovered had he gotten into that house. And you know, it would have been the end hopefully or theoretically of a reign of murders cremated by Joe Maso. So it was just one of those things where destiny had connected ROX scene to Joe and then Ben almost trying to save the day and almost did it just kind of opened up this whole case to years and years of him tracking these girls and killing him.

obviously because of his quote unquote career. And so they run him out and find out he's a warrant, so they take him away. At the meantime, Joe is going north. He's going northbound on the local major freeways. He crosses over five to eighty, which is a major freeway in the Bay Area, and he's heading towards Fairfax, which is just kind of north if you can imagine of San Francisco, and he's making a decision, Hey, I need to get

rid of this body. But one of the main things he did quite a bit in this case, all except for basically one of the victims that he left behind. He believes that he's smarter than law enforcement and he's better than law enforcement, and he wants to leave the body in a spot where he knows he'll be found, and so he actually has a location offic Sir Francis

Drake Boulevard. He takes it out, he goes travels west towards the ocean, and there's a road out there called log and Edith, and he drops Roxine's body there, and she's naked, and she's got some pantyhose wrapped around her and stuffed in her mouth, which will come back to full circle to help actually identify and convict Joe of these cases. But then he makes a phone call. So he's disposed of the body, but he puts it in a spot where he knows law enforcement will or somebody

will stumble upon it and call law enforcement. But then he makes a phone call. I did not confirm that the phone call was Joe Naso. The investigators in this case from nineteen seventy seven and from twenty ten try but and Joe's never admitted to anything, so he's never going to admit to this phone call. But what happens is dispatch receives a call from a mail caller advising, Hey, I think I see what looks like a body dumped on Sir Francis Drake near Loganitis Road. And obviously from

there that's when this whole thing takes off. So Joe leaves the area, law enforcement is called, a deputy comes out to the scene and sure if not, if he finds rock scene, and that just was the catalyst for the rest of this case.

enforcement is saying they are. So at the same time he he murdered rock Scene, he was still living with his wife, but he also stayed in the Bay Area. He wasn't he wasn't overly concerned that he was going to be caught because he thought he had left no evidence behind and he was very meticulous in how he disposed of Rockcine, and so he was under the impression

that he wasn't in danger. So after a few after a few months go by, uh, he actually decides, Hey, you know, I'm gonna go out and see what's going on, you know, on this trip looking for another prostitute. And in this case, he stumbles across another girl named Carmen Cologne. And Carmen was another prostitute kind of working the same

general area that Rox Scene had been working. And remember that throughout probably from the early seventies even into the sixties, when local prostitutes go missing, not a lot is done and you know, I'm in law enforcement. Now. If somebody comes to report that their family member who's a prostitute is missing, we take the crime report or we take the missing person's report, but we really don't do much

more after that. I mean, it's just these people are adults, they have travel, they can travel, they have access to money. It's very difficult to find them, so we don't list them as endangered or under suspicion.

women and stuff. These prostitutes, most of them, are a lot of them with photographs, and so he he picks up Carmen. He convinces her that you know, they have it. They strike a deal for sex, but he also convinced her that he can give her a little bit more money if she takes photographs, these what what he called

provocative photographs. And so again Joe has uh made made a deal basically with this girl, with the Carmen, and then he takes her out and to kind of a location up in the Oakland Hills, kind of a place not like Lover's Laying, if you will, but a place where cars typically pulled over and you'd find some juveniles maybe kind of having their first kiss or whatever. Right, and so Joe takes Carmen out there. She has no concern at that point, and uh, they start to have

sex in his car. But Joe as he's messing with you know, as they're having relations and thinking, you know, I think this girl is probably gonna look good if I can get her in lingerie and wrap her and pantyhose and get her in those provocative photos that he's kind of always infatuated with. And so he takes her home.

He convinced her to do that. He takes her home, and while he's posing her for these photographs, he's also kind of he's very manipulative, and he was also very very gifted at speaking, and so he would kind of manipulate these girls and convince him of what he was doing. And because they were getting paid, not much resistance was there.

And so in this case with Carmen, he's having photographs with her, they start kind of having relations again, sexual relations, and he's working on tying her up with panihos And at one point she's unaware of the situation because of the moment, because of the situation stuff, she doesn't really realize it. But he has been able to get pantyhose wrapped around her neck, and as there as Joe's just about the climax with her a second time, he starts

inking on those pantyhose with all his might. He was in pretty good shape, being an ex military guy and stuff, and he strangles Karming with those pantyhose, and once again he takes photos of her, however deceased body, and these photos are later found when his cases finally gets some wheels, you know, thirty plus years later. But then he's he's the difference between rock Scene and Carmen is there's no pimp coming, nobody looking for her, and he takes a

little bit of his time. He goes in showers and then he heads out with another body that he's got to get rid of.

there's a report of a cattle that's been shot. And at that time there was a lot of ranches out there, and a higher patrolman is not really geared to deal with cattle shootings, but it's a supposedly a prominent cattle rancher type person and he's making, you know, a call, and so somebody basically orders this. This higher patrolman out there and he thinks he's looking for Italian ends up stumbling pot across Carmen and she is naked like the first victim, she's wrapped in she's have panty hose on

her and stuff and so. But remember that's a year later, and it's on a different side of the Bay area, and it wasn't immediately connected to Roxine. But when the forensics folks come out, they are able to grab some some evidence from underneath her fingernails, which they believe is going to be skin fragments from the attacker, because they believe she's been murdered. Obviously the way she's been found,

it's obviously she's been murdered. And they also are able to find out that when they bring her back to the corner's office, they're able to get her fingerprints and find out that she's been a they find out who she is, so they identify as Carmen. They're then able to find records of her being booked in the Contra Costa County Jail for prostitution charges, so they kind of start looking at prostitution and those kinds of things, and

then through those records they find her sister. When someone gets booked into a jail, they often leave an emergency contact. Jill requests that so that if something happens to this person while they're in Tusty, they can call them and advise them of what's going on with their family member.

So they officers are I'm sorry. Detectives are able to track down Carmen's sister, and she almost immediately knows when she sees these detectives that something drastic has happened to Carmen, and she knows that Carmen's you know, she knows she's a prostitute. She knows Carmen's been given a black eye a few times, but she knows by the fact that the detectors show up that there's probably more to it.

During the course of their discussion with her, after breaking the terrible news about Carmen to her, they start asking her about Carmen and she starts telling them about how her sister was meeting with the guy that was paying her to take provocative photographs and that she kind of had a creepy feeling about the guy. It's how she described it. But you know, she needed the money, and Carmen's sister kept trying to convince her not to and said she would help her, and you know, kept working

on that, but Carmen kind of liked the life. And so that was a lead though for the detectives because now they know that she was a prostitute, they might have some DNA from the skin underneath her fingernails, and then you know, there's a possibility that there's somebody out there taking photographs, provocative philtographs of prostitute, so they thought they might have some lead there.

about his schyptophrenic son, Charles. If there is any thing that person that he may have had some sympathy or empathy for, it seemed to be his son Charles. So tell us what he manages to do and what kind of employment he gets and his new life or his life in San Francisco.

he's up to no good. Doesn't know about the serial killing stuff at all, but she knows he's up to no good. They've had a struggling marriage for years. And so Joe takes up a job for an apartment manager in San Francisco, and he knew the area of the Mission District area very well because he had been taking classes out there for photography. And Joe was, or Joe is gifted with the with the camera, but he just chose to take pictures of things that he and I

find really repent We find it just disgusting. We wouldn't, you know, the normal person wouldn't like to see these kinds of things, but that's what Joe was taking photographs of. But nonetheless, he gets a job at a place, an apartment building at eight thirty nine eleven Worth Street in San Francisco. And why that's important is because it later

connects Joe to the capital murder case against him. But while he's there, while he's still going to classes, he's still his nose is still attuned to the street life, and he's still trying to get prostitutes to take photos with him. He's still trying to sleep with prostitutes. You know, that's what he knows. He's been doing it for quite a long time.

she meets Joe. Joe gives her the apartment, agrees to rent it to her, and then Sria starts looking for jobs. You know, she's looking for any kind of work she can find. She's retired from a career as kind of a a secretary, if you will, in the Los Angeles County Sheriff's office actually, but she's just kind of a free spirit. She liked to go out, she liked to

interact with people. She's now in San Francisco. She's got herself a little apartment, but she doesn't have a lot of money to spare, so she applies for various jobs. At some point though, during this time, Joe starts wouling her. He starts trying to court her. She's not interested in that kind of relationship with him. But she's also slightly becoming desperate because she's falling behind on rent and she

doesn't have a lot of money coming in. And Joe capitalizes on that in his his way that he could. He manipulates the situation and convinces uh Sharia to take photographs and he would pay her, but not provocative at first. He just convinces her that they'll be you know, you know, professional photography headshots. Mostly convinces her it'll probably be she could use those two to help her find a job,

and so she agrees hesitantly. She agrees the money was too too good that Joe was offering, and over the course of of a period of time, she starts letting Joe take photographs of her uh and and suits like professional outfits, nothing sexual nature at all.

and she keeps shutting him down. But she does eventually pose and he does pay her for some slightly provocative photographs, and Joe's just head over heels for her. And while they're taking these photographs and some of it was prevocative, He's falling for her and he wants to be with her, but she keeps denying him, and eventually Joe starts to

get frustrated. He he has several sessions with her. He starts thinking about having relationship with her, and if she won't willingly do it, then he may have to either put drugs in her whine or maybe have to you know, take it from her unwillingly on her half. So they go back and forth. They keep working, Joe keeps working on trying to get with her, and then eventually he just basically wants to pay her for sex, and she just gets extremely appalled, doesn't want to do that at all.

And he sees like he's getting close to having relations with her, and she looks at her watch and she leaves and says, hey, I gotta go, and she just lives up the you know, upstairs, and says it's pretty easy for her to get home, and so he lets her go. So she's kind of like flirting with with a with a potentially dangerous situation that she's not completely

aware of. So she makes it out of the house that day or that apartment that day, and then he starts working on getting her to take photographs with these pantyhose, which was similar to what he was doing with Carmen and Roxine. And then finally he basically tries to get the upper hand on her, if you will, and start to tighten down on some pantehos and strangle her, but she fights it pretty well. She makes it to the floor, but unfortunately Joe just overpowers her and strangles her to death.

And once again he's he finishes what he's doing. He goes and takes a shower, and then he concocts a plan on how to dispose of her body.

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by visiting Smile direct club dot com slash true. That's Smile direct club dot com slash true. And this is unavailable in North Carolina. That's Smile direct club dot com slash true. Chris, we were talking about Joe Nasso's next move. He as the manager of this apartment building. Naturally, he is questioned by police. He's evasive and nothing. He says nothing that he has done, no information leading the police to lay any chargers or suspect him in this murder. So what does he do next?

He's left no evidence, they've got nothing, on me kind of mentality, and so he he basically, although he's a little bit hesitant, he decides I'm going to leave the area. At first he wasn't, but he decides to leave the area.

seven to seventy eight. Now we jumped into the nineties, and now we're in nineteen ninety three, so we're talking time is going by. Enforcement's gotten nowhere with three cold homicide cases. So he gets into you the city, and he knows how to pick out prostitutes. He knows how to find the underbelly of a community, if you will. And in April of ninety three, he ends up meeting

a gal named Pamela Parsons. And pam was a woman that was was a local and she was actually a waitress, but Joe when he saw her, believe that that she may do other things on the side, and he convinced himself that she may actually be a prostitute or at least somebody that he could film, because he's still looking for that one shot, that perfect photo. It's similar to the you know the surfers talk about that the wave, you know, they call it that one wave that was

just the most perfect way for them. Joe's looking for that perfect photo. So over the course of a couple of weeks, he starts going to this restaurant quite a bit and strikes up conversations with Pamela and they sort of become friends. But the whole time, Joe's trying to figure out what's Pamela's real story, which she maybe take money for sex he's attracted to her, or maybe he would let or she would let him photograph him. So

he's locked into another target. Basically, he's he's convinced himself that one way or another, he's going to have relations with her.

him over several months. I was going to meet him personally, but he's in San Quentin and that's a short ride for me. But he started trying to manipulate the situation. He started wanting to have money, and it was pretty obvious he wasn't going to actually tell me anything that I could use to help me with my list of ten. And ultimately, what I was trying to do before this book was to find out who the other four were on his list and try to get some closure for

some families. But with Pamela, she makes the mistake of telling him that she's kind of down on her luck and she hasn't paid her rent, and so he ends up convincing her to take money for photographs, the same he's done before with these other girls, and once again, basically he does the same thing. It's like he's on repeat mode. He strangles Pamela and then decides he needs to get rid of her body as well.

So I think subconsciously he was probably realizing that he needed to be careful with the with what he was doing, so he wasn't spotted, but he tried to do everything he could do to make sure that there was no evidence there, and when the forensic folks came out to the scene, it was it was unfortunately frustrating for everybody involved because there was a human female body there and she was obviously deceased, but there just wasn't like tire tracks or threads or DNA or just you know, nothing

that the investigators could could grab and give to a detection and say here you go, go get them, you know what I mean. And so they didn't really get a lot with hers as well with Pamela's case. And because they didn't, they didn't have a lot of lead chase, and it left Joe out there and you know, able to strike again if you will.

them targets. So he's in Linda, California, which is just north of where he had just disposed of Pamela, and he's looking on the main drag for prostitutes, early evening hours, sunny outside and all that kind of stuff, and he ends up seeing this gal and he didn't know her name at all, but he Tracy was the one that he was watching for quite a while, and he also decided that he wanted to have sex with her. He did not instantly or in the beginning decided that this

is somebody that he was going to kill. He was merely just basically trying to have sex with her. And he assumed, and it was correct, that she was a prostitute. So he sizes her up, if you will. They they kind of start talking about having sex. But then Joe the has that thought about the perfect photo again, and he just instantly starts talking to her about letting him tie her up and take these provocative photos, and she agrees.

She's she's looking to make money. She gets to this guy's house and and it's it's set up inside like almost you know, professional, there's lights and it's clean. But she also sees, uh, what Roxine had seen on the table, which is just hundreds of photographs laid out and it's just pictures of women and they're you know, partially dressed,

some of them are naked. And she sees these photos, but she doesn't really give him too much weight because she's there trying to make some money and it was good money that Joe was offering, and she agrees to wear some lingerie, she agrees to be tied up, and they kind of about barber back and forth, if you will. He then tries to offer a little bit more money

for sex. She you know, has no problem with that, decides to do it, and then he starts trying to really work on getting those getting some pantyhose, you know, in a position that he could wrap them around her body, specifically her neck, so that if he wanted to, or the notion came across his mind to to try to strangle her with those pantyhose that he could, and sure as heck, he ends up strangling Tracy as well, uh, and then dumping her body near near a cemetery, in

the town of mary's Ville, which is just north northeast of Linda, Right, So.

of it. But later on in life, Joe becomes he has money, he's had some investments, he's made some money, he as a photographer, but he has this thing where he just can't stop stealing stuff. It's petty theft stuff. So he ends up doing several misdemeanors and he finds himself on probation because he commits enough petty theft misdemeanors

to basically be the equivalent of a felony. And this is before laws changed in California so that you can commit pretty much any crime and walk free now in California. But he's placed on probation. He's in California, he's now killed two girls, and he's deciding that it's time to go, and he puts in a request to have his probation

transferred to Nevada. And what was happening, unbeknownst to his probation officer in California and to anyone else, Joe had been sneaking off, if you will, to Nevada and bought a place out there. I think he was on Metger Street, which is on the outskirts of Reno. And so through

quest he made, his probation was transferred to Reno. Well, in Reno, the Department of Public Services there, they're super aggressive and they started doing spot checks on Joe quite a bit, and it was it really rubbed him wrong because he he loathed, He really loath law enforcement, hates law enforcement almost as much as he hates women, and really starting to get frustrated by these surprise visits by

his privation officer. Well, on one of these visits, the probation officer shows up unannounced and checks on Joe, and when he finds Joe at the house, he starts looking around the house, seeing some things that are kind of making him wonder what's going on here. The house would be something if you wanted to paint a picture of somewhat of a hoarder's house, where there's stacks of things all over in corners, on tables and bookshelfs and stuff.

But he discovers that Joe has a advertisement in his shirt pocket for the sale or the purchase of the firearm, and that's prohibited by somebody who's on probation. The privation officer actually makes a phone call to the number on the the advertisement, and the person on the other end says, yeah, I talked to that guy he was trying to buy

my firearm. With that information, the privation officer arrests Joe and puts him on a violation and takes him to the to the local jail for some reason, and I wasn't able to get exactly why or a really good solid answer as to why. But I was a privation officer at one time, and all I can say is that when you work in law enforcement, get you get

these hunches or gut feelings. But something about the situation at Joe's home in Nevada got his privation officer wondering and thinking, and he asked his coworkers to do a spot search, like a full search of Joe's house, which was not completely out of the normal, but he was being charged with trying to buy a firearm, and so the privation officers looking for more evidence to support that charge, which would be a new felony charge for joke. So

he calls his buddies with the probation department. They show

up and they start searching the house. While they're searching the house or finding things that you and I just wouldn't keep in our house, mannequins, partially dressed mannequins, rooms locked from the outside, like going down the hallway in the rooms locked from the outside, piles of women's clothing, pop panny hose, just stuff that you you know, you really wouldn't see in a normal person's home, which starts kind of getting the hair on the back of the

neck of these investigators. These privation officers to stand up because of that, they dig further well as they're searching the house for evidence of more crimes, because now they're convinced that Joe's up to no good. One of the privation officers find this piece of line paper. I'm kind of in a binder or a paper binder if you will, or paper folder. It's a line piece of paper and

it's handwritten notes. They don't know for sure it's a time, but they assume it's Joe's writing, and it literally says on top of the piece of paper the lift or I'm sorry, list of ten is what it says on top, and then it just lifts stuff like girl near Helsberg, Mendocino County, girl near Port Coff, the girl near log Anita.

So it has these things that lists. One of them, number seven was lady from eight thirty nine Elevenworth And these t base officers look at that list, they look at the house that they're standing in, and they instantly feel like something is really bad with this list. They instantly assume the worst. They called Joe's privation officer at the jail and say, hey, you need to finish booking Joe,

and you need to get back out here. And that was the catalyst for this entire case being cracked open and what led to the actual apprehension of Joe Naso for six known murders.

was in the Air Force back in the fifties. And it was very damaging device I'm sorry, not a device, but book that was used against Joe in court and with that, with that rape diary, and it was very gruesome, it was very descriptive. And I didn't put any of that in the book because at some point you just got to stop.

they end up calling law enforcement. They put out kind of an email, if you will, to the detective bureaus throughout the California in Nevada saying, hey, we got this guy. This is sort of what we found. What do you guys think does anybody have anything to add to this. And although they had assumed that the list might be for victims, they just didn't have any proof at that time.

So what ends up happening is they start this now they called the NASSO Task Force, and so they basically try to make sense of that list of ten and so they start assuming the worst that it's probably murder victims, and they start trying to figure out what that little list, what little bit of information you put in that list? You know that I read to excerpts from and that are in the book. You know, they basically were able

to build a case. And one of them that you should that kind of should drag your memory, is he literally wrote on that list. The one that he wrote it says, what did they say, oh, lady number seven, lady from eight thirty nine eleven words. Well, if you remember, Joe was the apartment manager at eight thirty nine eleven Worths and that's where Sharia lived when she was found murdered.

So that kind of that research and that kind of connection made the task force believe that this was a list of ten murder victims.

there that this this really is a circumstantial case. So they're trying to build a strong a circumstantial case, trying to build as strong a case as they can in this year, in this very short year, to be able to take this to and make capital cases out of the evidence. So tell us about what goes on behind the scenes in that one year, and what does Naso know about that?

law enforcement had was circumstantial evidence. But as they start taking apart that list of ten, a lot of people, By the way, a lot of people are involved with this case. I listened to them in the book and try to give everybody due credit. But you're talking about a massive investigation, so I may have missed a few people. But my main contact was a Marine County Sheriffs detective

at the time named Ryan Peterson. He's now a sergeant there, but he took the reins because Marine County took a lot of ownership in this case, because rock Scene was the first victim that they were able to forensically tie Joe Naso too, And so because she was the first murder and it was the first murder that they tied to Joe Naso's list of ten, Ryan and those guys took over. I didn't necessarily take over, but they had

a stronger lead into this case. And and and then Joe ends up meeting Ryan, and Ryan actually arrests him

the moment he comes out of custody. But so what Ryan's able to do is and a lot of I'm telling you, a lot of people are in paul of this case, but Ryan and his in that task Naso task Force were able to bring enough evidence largely circumstantial to the to the Marine County District Attorney's office, uh specifically one primary uh DA Rosemary and convince her that Joe Naso was a murderer and that this list consisted

of these victims that they were able to connect. And so, uh it starts with Joe Naso's wife's DNA is located on pantyhose that were found inside rock Scenes throat, and so that was like the deal breaker. That was the thing that just threw Ryan and the whole task force kind of in a frenzy, if you will, because now they had what they believed a confirmed murder victim and serial killer identified. It was his wife's DNA, but obviously it was you know, a connection to Joe Naso because

it was his wife. So it turns out the pair that he used to study stuck down Roxine's throat, that was actually a pair of his wife's pantyhose. But as they worked down that list, they start putting together you know, girl near Port Costa's Carmen Cologne, Girl near lag Anitas, although it was misspelled, was Rock Scene, the Leavenworth address.

You and I talked about. There was one that said girl in Woodland, which was a girl we didn't discuss, but Sarah Dillon, the girl from Linda which was number nine, which was Yuba County, and then the girl from Marysville Cemetery, which was Tracy Dapoia. So that's how they did it. But then they had to scramble. I know it sounds

like a long time. A year is a long time, but when you're putting together a homicide case, then this case, you know, a serial killer case that started in nineteen seventy seven and you have ten victims on a list, it's definitely not a lot of time. But they were able to get Rosemary, the DA from Marin County to secure an arrest warrant for Joe for four murders. So Joe's sitting in jail. To bring this thing full circle, Joe sitting in jail, his release dates coming up. He

has no idea what's about to hit him. But he's released from the county jail and walks out and meets Ryan Detective Ryan Peterson and about eight other law enforcement officials, and he's just like he's just he's dumbfound He's like, what you know, what are you guys? Who are you and what are you doing here? And Ryan looks at him and says, well, I'm I'm arresting you for murder. And he said do you Joe responds with a chuckle, well do you have cause? And Ryan says, yeah, we

have cause and we have an arrestaurant for it. And he plays handcuffs on him and puts him in the car and then Joe doesn't say anything for quite a while. So he was very smug, very flippant. Thought he was going to be free. He definitely thought he was going to get away with these murders. And now the moment he's released from custody for the information violation, he's now being arrested in and charged with four murders.

He's made enough money that he could certainly represent himself, and then you talk about two fortuitous things that he decides to do, one at trial and one affecting his bail. So his own representation tell us about his decision on who to represent him at trial and how that impacts this case dramatically.

And it was kind of interesting for me when I was looking at this case and corresponding with him, I was just thinking, you know, this guy was very close, extremely close to getting away with murder, with ten plus murders. He does not give a confession. He adamantly denies everything about the case. He then later because evidence is brought up, will change his story. But immediately he throws a curveball to Ryan Peterson and the DA and he marches into court,

he has the money to afford attorney. He could afford a high paying attorney, but he surprises the court by telling him. After they tell him he's being charged in a capital murder case and with the murders of four women, he says, thank you very much, and I'll be representing myself. And it just kind of shocked the whole courtroom. I mean, you're talking about seasoned investigators, you're talking about a judge who's been around a while, while DA has been around

a while. It's very uncommon for a person being charged for a capital murder case to represent themselves. And that was a crucial error for Joe because some of the more damaging evidence actually came against Joe during the preliminary hearings and the infancy of his court case. So had he had a normal attorney, probably any attorney at this point, in my opinion, if he had just any attorney at all, he likely would have been released on bail because the

case was all circumstantial. So because the DNA from rox scene was not known at that point, they would get it just a few weeks later. But Joe had the ability to hire an attorney, did not he wanted to represent himself because he thought he was What he said was he was representing himself because he had a few small claims courts appearances and he won, so he felt like he could handle a capital murder case. I mean,

that's that's his mindset, that was his mentality. So you know, small claims court cases are vastly different than capital murder cases, and so that pompous attitude is what really hurt Joe. So consequently he stayed in custody the entire time, and in doing so, his lack of knowledge of how the court proceedings work prolonged the case, which then gave law

enforcement even more time. And they even did things like they exhumed the body of Tracy I believe and were able to conclude that her death was actually a murder, and then some evidence and stuff from that scene was was used against Joe. I just all worked against him by simply not letting a normal attorney represent him.

witnesses for him. Because people were kind of, you know, chuckling, kind of like rolling their eyes, like look at this guy, look at you know, Joe started to get angry, and the violence and anger that he had when he killed his victims began to show up in court and he would have violent, extremely violent outbursts and call the district attorney, the detectives in the room and the judge just terrible names, just to go on a rampage and scream and call

them names and bang his fists. And so it actually was another example of how he had no control and the one thing Joe Nasso always wanted to have was controlled, and so it kind of crumbled his whole kind of machismo and the narcissism and all that stuff started to stay away because he thought he was in control and he was losing it in the courtroom, and so it

really worked against him. The jury saw that and just was convinced, without a doubt that this guy was violent and angry enough to kill somebody.

to law enforcement Ala Celpo. But he also became kind of a pain at times when he came to court because he would he would posture, he would do things, he would say things to the to the media and stuff, and he just he even went as far as he had this large bronco, a full sized bronco where he would uh write messages. He knew media would be coming to the hearings and so he would write these messages on the side of his bronco and stuff. But he

was there every day he gave his testimony. He was a huge proponent of the justice system and law enforcement. Wanted closure for his family. And then when Joe was found guilty, you know, he he had a quote of just you know, hey, They asked him, well, what do you think now, and he said, I hope he just kills himself. So he saves everybody a bunch of money and grief. Speaking, he's speaking about NASO. So Larry was

he was a huge asset for law enforcement. He kind of lost it a little bit during the trial, which can happen at any at any time, especially when you lose a family member and details come out about these cases. But overall he was a big help for law enforcement. So and he felt he felt a pretty strong sense of closure when Joe was found guilty. So that was kind of a good thing to see and hear about this case.

she was out there. She was Sarah was a huge fan of Bob Dylan. Her real name was actually Renee Shapiro, but she she went by the name of Sarah Dillon, which was the name of Bob Dylan's wife. So she was a huge fan. Some would say a little bit, a little bit over the top, but she was. She was harmless, but she was a huge fan. Her school was found. Law enforcement was able to figure out the identity of the school by tracking down Sarah's biological mother.

And then when this case broke and the police served a search warrant on a couple safe deposit boxes that Joe had, you know, over one hundred and forty thousand dollars in one of them. But in one of the other safe deposit boxes, they found her passport and they also found a Bob dylenton that she wore religiously like

every single day, all day. And so those two pieces of evidence, although circumstantial, we knew Joe kept trinkets from his murders, were used to convince the jury to seek the death tony against.

He's sitting on death row, still shocked that he was convicted of these murders, and he my intent when I was sending letters back and forth, and when he started to get less, when he started to get I don't know if this makes sense, but it seemed like the way he was talking to me in the letters, he became more agitated when I was trying to get information

about these cases. One thing that was noted by Ryan, the detective who arrested Joe and testified and brought that case to court, was the angle of saying, hey, Joe, just tell us you know who these girls were, because we need closure. Absolutely backfired when Ryan tried to use that with Joe, and he had interviewed him for four hours at one point and then two hours a second time.

When they got to that point where Joe would connect himself circumstantially to these some of these victims, and then they would try to plead with him about closure and about the victims, Joe would would instantly stop talking. So I think when I started asking him about these other girls in the list, it turned him off completely. In fact, he's he stopped talking to me. The letter stopped, he

stopped talking to me. Shortly after I tried to figure out who these girls were, I had visions of grandeur. I had hoped that I could figure it out and close some cases for some agencies and bring some closure, but I failed. Unfortunately. It was one of the tougher parts about this story that I had to deal with and live with. But Joe knows. Joe absolutely absolutely knows where these girls are at, knows who they are, and he just won't give it up. So to share.

Facebook page, website? Tell us how people might contact you or check out your other stuff.

And then I do a lot of giveaways and stuff on Facebook, So if you follow me or connect with me on Facebook, I tend to give out paperback and kindel copies of my books and usually I'll sign them, so if anybody's interested, look me up.