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You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about him Gasey Bundy, Stahmer The Night Stalker VTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Hello, this is your host Dan Zupaski for the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors
that have written about them. On November thirtieth, nineteen eighty nine, in Florida, a man was shot four times by a naked, heart faced blonde prostitute. He suffered a slow, agonizing death while the woman stripped him of his valuables and drove his Cadillac back to the motel where her lesbian lover was waiting. In nineteen ninety, her killing spree kicked into
high gear. Were three men slain in three weeks. Of the six of seven male victims whose bodies were found, some were nude, all had been robbed and shot dead. In January nineteen ninety one, pawnshop records led to the arrest of Aileen Carol Warnos, a k A. Lee An abusive, alcoholic man hater with a murderous hair trigger temper. Tired of turning twenty dullar tricks and often being abused, Warnos decided to rob her customers of everything they had, including
their lives. Her arrest and trial prompted a worldwide media frenzy and even an Academy Award winning movie Monster. In the end, Warnos received six separate death sentences. Lethal Intent is the definitive account of a killer who confounded the profiling experts, forever changing their concepts of the crimes of which a woman is capable. My guest today is journalist and author Sue Russell, discussing her true crime classic lethal Intent, the shocking true story of one of America's most notorious
female serial killers. Welcome to the program, Sue Russell, and thank you for agreeing to this interview.
Good morning, Dan, Thank you for having me on the show.
Well, thank you very much. It's my pleasure and I'm sure our audiences as well. Oh yeah, I'm sure, I'm certain.
Now.
First off, this is a question that's always intrigues me and I always ask it of all guests. You are, give you a little bit of a background to our audience. You're an internationally syndicated journalist and author, a past editor of Women Magazine, a Woman Magazine, and a regular contributor to various British and US publications. You've written about the beauty industry and co authored The Star Mothers The Moms Behind the Celebrities. Now, what was it about the Alien
Warno's case? Because you've written about so many diverse cases, what was it about the Alien Warno's case specifically that compelled you to write not only Lethal Intent but also Damsel of Death, both about Alien Warnos. What was it about Alien Warnos and her case that interested you so much?
Well, I'd written a lot of crime stories and features on related issues about crime, and I was dying to write a true crime book No pun intended. And the minute I heard about Eileen, of course, my is pricked up because it was such an extraordinary taste. It was such an amazing piece of news that was coming across the wise, this woman being arrested with all these casualties of her at the end of her twenty two caliber gan and it was in modern day times, unprecedented, and
she defied the definitions of a serial killer. You know, as outlined by the FBI. So it just seemed crazy not to just immediately jump up and say, okay, this is the one I have to write this book. I felt very much interested in women's violence. I've written about women as victims of violence, and this was just too good to pass up in terms of being such a fascinating story.
Dan, Right now, I'm a little bit confused. Maybe you can tell our audience you wrote Damsel of Death and in also Lethal Intent are the two separate books?
Told us. I'm glad you asked that, because it does confuse people somewhat. What happened was I wrote Damsel of Death first for England and Australia. As you may be able to tell, I don't know if I have any of my accent left. I am a natives of London, and so the book came out over there first, and due to various publishing industry hiccups, it didn't come out here until you know, after two thousand what was it two thousand and two I think, and at that point
they put another title on it. It was exactly the same book, but I updated it with her ten years on death row at the end. So Lethal Intent is definitely the one if anyone's interested in getting hold of the book, because it does go right up to, you know, the point of her execution.
Yeah, okay, that's that clarifies that I was interested to know about that. It would seem unusual that you would write two separate books about the same thing. Now I understand that you've spent some two years searching the life of Alien Warnos. It is a fascinating story just on its own. Let's go back. What was Aliens Warno's early life like growing up in Troy, Michigan, just outside of the city of Detroit.
Right, Just to clarify, I didn't spend two years researching it. I spent two years researching and writing it. I don't want people to think I'm the slowest person in the world. Hemisphere. Eileen was born to Diane Warnoff, who was briefly married to Leo Pittman. They were both very young and this was in Troy, Michigan. And basically what happened is, first there was the brother, Keith, who's about eleven months older than Eileen, and then Eileen was born, by which time
Leo Pittman had exited the picture. And within the first two years of Eileen's life. Her mother abandoned her twice, dumping her and Keith on the grandparents, Brita and Lowry Warnoff also in the Troy, Michigan area there and so she left the babies with the grandparents once and then she came back and tried to make a go of it, but that didn't work, and so she took off twice.
So for anyone who believes, you know, the abandonment during that very early formative stage is a powerful influence on a person's future, then I think you could say that Eileen had a double dose of it. The grandparents then raised Eileen and Keith as their own and alongside their own children, Diane's brothers, Barry and Laurie, So it was Barry and Laurie and Eileen and Keith as if they were all sibling, although in fact Barry and Laurie were
aunt and uncle to Eileen and teeth. If I'm making sense, yeah, yeah, So it was a rough childhood. It was a hard scrabble Michigan life. But Laurie warn us Lowry, I'm sorry, the father. We called him Lowry to try to distinguish from Lourie the daughter. But Lowry warn Us was generally recognized in the neighborhood as a mean man, and neighbors would hear the kids getting a whipping from across the backyards and what have you, and here screaming and carrying on.
The shades were always drawn. They were a very private family. It was one of those cases of what is going on behind closed doors, and school kids who went to school with her would always say, or said when I interviewed them years later that they always assumed that bad things were happening and it was not a happy place to be living, but they kept all of it very much hidden. And grandmother Brita was also later was revealed an alcoholic and was drinking heavily behind closed doors too.
So you've got two drinking grandparents, and you've got the violence from the grandfather who would take a belt to the kids, especially Eileen, who was always in trouble with them, and you know, he'd pull down their jeans or whatever and just take the leather belt to them, actually make Eileen polish it up before she got a whipping. So it was a whole procedure and I'm sure had a bad effect on her outlook and life in general. You know it was child abuse certainly would be considered child
abuse today. In those days, it was not so terribly unusual. At least it was a perhaps more violent version of what's not so terrapy unusual. It wasn't unusual to hit your kids back then.
Now when you talk about effect, certainly in a negative effect in this case, as well as we will reveal in this interview that this is an exceptional case for all the factors that led to her shaping her eventual character and eventual behavior. And you talk about the parents, and were Aileen and Keith told about who their parents actually were or what anything about their actual real parents?
And when were they told? At what age were they told given this actual information the real identity of their actual parents.
Eileen was about twelve years old, and she was crushed, completely crushed. She was in disbelief, basically. And what is so interesting to me, or was you know, initially so stunningly interesting to me, Dan, was that when I began looking into Leo Pittman's background birth father, not only was he a petty criminal and you know, stole cars and things like that, but when I eventually got his records from the FBI and learned about what he had done a bit later on. He had abducted a child into
his car. He'd lurked outside a schoolyard and he'd taken this little girl, I think she was maybe seven, and he'd driven her across state lines and he had sexually abused her, and he then put her in the car and he drove her back across and dropped her off outside the school. Now, because she'd gone across state lines, albeit marginally, it became a federal offense, and the father,
Violin also committed a capital crime. He too faced the death penalty like his daughter, and they never met and he didn't get the death penalty, and ultimately he hanged himself in prison. But I just find that so eerie and uncanny. A coincidence, or maybe more than a coincidence, that their lives took these turns. And the child, who was instrumental in the victim in putting Leo Pittman behind bars, had to go into court to testify that this was
the man who had abducted and raped her. And when she was shown the fabric from the seat of his car, which was a distinctive check pattern, she broke out in hives in front of the whole courtroom, so everyone could see this immediate physical reaction she had, just as seeing the car seat material from Leo Pittman's car. But Leo tried to the system too, saying he was mentally ill.
He spent time in the mental hospital, he spent time in the prison part he tried to work the system, and he did, in fact hang himself.
It's very interesting when you talk about the environmental the effect of the environment on a future killer of this case is very I would think a textbook case in terms of.
What not to do.
And yes, I mean I always likened it to stacking up dominoes, you know, standing them up on their end in a long row before they all began to tip over and they suddenly reached the tipping point. It was like everything that was a part of her life was a strike against her. She had some hearing difficulties which manifested themselves as learning difficulties. In fact, she just needed a hearing aid, and the grandmother sort of refused to accept this and didn't get her the necessary help and
kind of dismissed it. When teachers noted this kind of thing, and one teacher actually wrote a report saying something like, this girl is going to I've forgotten the wording. It's been so long. I'm sorry, but you know, more or less like this girl is going, you know, to end up in major trouble if somebody doesn't intervene. And of course nobody did. But eventually those dominoes all kind of cumulatively,
the weight of them just tipped over. And it almost feels inevitable when you look at the fact she was taking money for sex when she was age eleven or twelve. Boys who were in the neighborhood at that time and who are now men testified to testify that they told me in interviews that they'd had sex with her. When she was eleven, she had sex with her brother. She took money for sex. She would charge thirty five cents or a packet of cigarettes. She was called the cigarette pig,
the cigarette bandit. These kids had a fort and they would have to make out sessions, and nobody wanted to kiss Eileen. You can imagine, you know, the rejection and the pain that was building and the rage that was building in this girl through adolescence. And she would use this money that she got from sex also to party with her friends. She so badly wanted friends, and she so badly wanted to build these friendships that she saw all around her, but that seemed to elude her, and
so she'd throw parties and what have you. But the trouble was, she had this explosive temper, and as I write about in Lisal Intent, basically she sabotaged every friendship she had because other kids were afraid of Eileen. She would have this extraordinary explosion from time to time, much to the embarrassment of sisters Aunt Laurie, who really tried to do to stand up for Eileen, but at times it became impossible and unbearable. Barry was a bit older and was out of the house, so Laurie was more
in the sick of it. But it was very It was very tough because Eileen clearly longed for these connections, but just was unable to rein in this sort of these demons inside her long enough to sustain any thing.
What I found was interesting too in continuum with just with her environment, you also, or at least did She had said and I don't know if this was corroborating, and you can tell us who actually said this and if there was any any corroboration of this he had said that. I think Alien had said that. Her father said she was wicked, evil, worthless, should never have been born,
and she was not worthy of the air that she breathed. Yeah, was that proven that those kind of statements came from her I think father.
I think that was a mixture of what was told by close family friends, by Eileen herself. Laurie, the sister aunt, was a little reticent when it came to painting her father with this nasty, nasty brush that everybody else did. I think she was rather in denial, but she did admit that, yes we got whippings, and yes, you know, he did shout at Eileen and teeth. They were always
in trouble. So it was a combination of people, including Eileen herself, who talked about this verbal abuse, which was ongoing for a long time and obviously very destructive.
You also talk about that Aleen Lee Wernos also developed a liking for drugs and alcohol, and how did this play into her eventual acceleration in her behavior, her behavior getting worse eventually. What was the role of alcohol and drugs in that?
Well, you know, there were several elements running concurrently, she was getting into so much trouble. I mean, she got pregnant when she was fourteen and went into a home and gave birth, and the baby was taken away from her when she was just past fifteen fifteenth birthday. So we have the drinking and the drugs. We have her being essentially ostracized from then on by Lowry, who basically
kicked her out of the house more than once. She did go back, but eventually she didn't go back, and she lived in cars, in campers, in people's drive ways. She lived it rough, and needless to say, I am quite certain that drugs and alcohol played quite a role in the road she then took because she basically never really pursued any kind of jobs or she lived rough.
She prostituted herself, and I've always believed Eileen always denied that she did drugs in the later part of her life, and certainly I know that when she was with her lover, Tyria Moore, they would, you know, knock off a forty eight pack of beer in an evening, but Eileen always denied the drugs. Now, the drugs were very prevalent during the teenage years and unless someone actually actively goes into AA and says I'm going to clean up my act
and gives up the drugs. Living the life she did, the prostitution, the living on the streets, the homeless, the going from one place to another, I personally find it very hard to believe and always did that she didn't continue to do drugs. She had certain things that to her were not acceptable. She would admit to the drinking, and I believe she did the drugs and didn't admit to them in much the same way that she had no problem admitting to having killed the men, but she
had a problem saying she'd been sexually abused. In her mind, one was shameful, the other was not. And I think that the drugs were there that would be my you know, it can only be a guest because she would never confirm it. But you know, people pay for sex with drugs, as you know, And she was living a very rough life for a very long time.
Right now, you mentioned her lover, her lesbian lover, Tyra or ty Tyra Moore. Maybe can tell us a little bit about Tyra and the event that intersected these two people's lives forever where they met how they met and how they became a couple, and tell us a little bit about Tyra Moore first.
Well, Tira was actually the more industrious of the two. She did have a definite liking for partying and drinking beer and you know, generally getting wasted regularly. However, she did hold down jobs. She was a hotel maid and you know, various other jobs that she had For periods
of times. She would go off to work and leave Eileen would then take off up the highway with her what the police would call and you know, I guess I would too, give them what was in it her kill bag, which was a bottle of Windex and her gun, and she would go off hooking. And you know, there's some dispute really about how much was openly told Tyra at what point. There's no doubt that Tyron knew she
was prostituting herself. But Tyra was the type who really liked the end product and didn't want to rock the boat too much. It was easier for her to turn a blind eye and just take the rewards as it were, of what came of Eileen's lifestyle. They met in a bar and they began drinking and they went home together. At the time, Tyrie was living with Cammy Green, a friend of her, and Cammy's husband and children, and they woke up one morning and Tyrea had a woman in
her room, and Cammy tried to go in. At some point she was told no, no, get away, and basically they spent the weekend together, locked up together in that room, coming out just occasionally to get more alcohol or whatever. However, Dan, I must tell you that, contrary to what everybody else believes, I do not believe that Eileen was a lesbian. I believe that Eileen I interviewed enough former boyfriends and people with whom she had sex where there was no money exchanged.
Men I'm talking about. I believe with Eileen Tyra Tyrea. I call her Tyria, you call her Tira, Many people call her Tira. Tyria was an emotional prop It was what Eileen so badly, badly craved, that emotional connection. Their sex life dropped off pretty quickly, and although Eileen did have one other to our knowledge, lesbian affair, basically she was often in love with men and often had sex with men. So I've always gone against this man hating lesbian label always given to her by the press. I
don't believe that was the case. I don't believe she was a lesbian. She was bisexual perhaps, but she certainly enjoyed sex with men and instigated it when she didn't have to.
Yes, she was the act of love. Somebody actually wanting her seemed to be the main compulsion and driving her life. Yeah, regardless of who it was.
Yes. Now, when they lived in a trailer together, Eileen put tinfoil what do you call it, aluminum foil they call it in the state's aluminium foil in England at the windows of the trailer. And basically she didn't want Tyria doing anything. She preferred her to be at home, waiting for her and available to her at all times. She was quite controlling in that regard, and you know she she liked to keep very close tabs on her and overwriting the book and working a very complex, intricate timeline.
I did eventually come to my own conclusion about what I would call with the precipitating event that preceded each of these murders, and it was very closely tied into her borderline personality. And the best way I can describe borderline personality is with the title of a book on the condition, which is called I Hate You, Don't leave
me or something like that. But in other words, it's the dichotomy between the anger and the wanting someone to stay with you, but then also telling them you hate them, and just black and white kind of behavior. So where was I going with all that? So I think she, you know, she had this borderline personality disorder, and I do believe that a big part of borderline personality is a massive fear of abandonment. It's just like a life ruling fear. And she so lived in fear of abandonment.
She'd been abandoned so many times, let's face it, and let down so many times. So when she found Tyria, and Tyria stuck with her, even after Tyree knew she'd committed the first murder, of course, this was incredibly powerful for her and it meant everything to her certainly.
Now you talked about the precipitating event, Well, let's get to that. They are in they on a beach there in Florida together. At some point, Lee Aileen Warnels goes from robbing her clients or taking money from her clients to killing them. What you talked about a precipitating event. Is there a precipitating event that caused this that you found out? You discovered was that moment that reason, that event that precipitated her first murder?
Well? I believe though, And of course remember that although she confessed to seven murders and was convicted of six, we don't one hundred percent know that those were her only murders. I personally think she may have witnessed another murder at a different time in her life, which she knows a bit convoluted. So I won't go into it right here and now. But Thanksgiving nineteen eighty nine, Ty had brought home a girl called Sandy for Thanksgiving dinner from who was a coworker of her at the hotel.
And she was a very pretty, blonde, straight girl, and I interviewed her, you know, and Thanksgiving dinner was an extremely awkward event, Eileen. They had basically TV dinner style Thanksgiving dinners. Eileen would not eat in front of the other two and she clearly was very very jealous of Sandy.
And within when Thanksgiving I don't know, but you know, within two days after this event, which I think rocked her world, because she really thought TI was in love with Sandy, and although she knew Sandy had a husband, I believe it was at that point or certainly you know, living boyfriend. This didn't cut it with Eileen. She was terribly badly affected by the presence of this pretty young
blonde thing, you know, and felt very, very threatened. So I believe that was the trigger for the first one, and the fact that she knew. She also somehow established that these men had a certain amount of cash on them, you know, I e more than twenty dollars, because with one exception, the seven men had several hundred dollars on them in cash, which in her world was quite a lot of money. And I think that she somehow established that through conversation with them, and then that played into
her targeting certain men. But to reinforce what I was saying about, you know, why she killed. And when when Ty's sister came down from Ohio for a vacation with them, Eileen killed. I think it was three men in six weeks. I believe I have that right.
It was.
Three weeks because the sister went home early. But anyway, there was a terrible clash. The sister wanted Ty to move back up to Ohio. And during that period of time, three men died in very short order, and Eileen would come home waiving the dollar bills, you know, one hundred dollar bills, whatever, and would say, look what I have. You know, I've got all this money. We can party, we can go to sea World, we can this week and that, And she was desperately afraid that that Tie
was going to go home to Ohio with the sister. Again, the abandonment issue kicked in, and I believe that she robbed to get the money, which she felt, as it had done all her life, she would be able to avoid it being abandoned. By having money, she'd be able to buy herself company, which is really what she did with those kids as a teenager, with all the money and the parties. And again with Tie by coming home with this, which Tie frankly was drawn in by so
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Are you feeling lucky? No, we're just necessary void. We're prohibited by L eighteen plus terms and conditions apply the website for details. Example is you know why three men were killed in such a short space of time and when the sister was visiting, And I really believe it was all tied into that fear of abandonment, and she was very methodical about it. And this is why I
took issue with the film Monster great issue. In fact, I wrote a piece for The Washington Post about the film because in the film, which I don't know if you've seen it, Dan.
But.
She's brutally raped and she kills her attacker to save her own life. Well, that's actually not what happened, and it's a very different story, and it's the wrong story, and you're not learning anything about Eileen Warnos by believing that to be the story, because she wasn't a woman who killed to save her own life during a rape. That first victim, Richard Mallory, was found sitting behind the wheel of his car, fully clothed. Something had set her off for sure, But you know I and it wasn't.
When Aileen was first arrested, she didn't come out with a lot of the stuff that came out at her trial later about how Richard Mallory had raped her in every which way possible, anally raped her and what have you, tied her to the steering wheel with electrical cables, inserted rubbing alcohol into her bodily orifices. When the murder had
taken place, Eileen took the car, as you know. But the other thing is before she left, she took Mallory and she wrapped him in a bit of old carpet that was lying out there in the woods and hid his body. Now on his pockets were turned inside out, so she'd gone through his pockets to see what else he had on him. Now, to me, if you're being brutally raped and you are trying to save your own life, do you really stop to you know, go through the man's pockets, and once you've killed him and cover his
body with a rug, you'd run, you'd run. She did run eventually, when she'd taken care of all this, you know, hiding the body, she took the car, and then she also separately hid what else was in the car, which vodka and orange juice glasses, what have you. But there was no rubbing alcohol, there were no electrical ties. The other evidence was never there, and she didn't come out with this story until she got on the witness stand. You know, she'd had a long time to think about
what her story was going to be. But in actual fact, the evidence is that the first bullet went into Richard Mallory from the passenger seat. He was fully dressed behind the steering wheel. You will admit that paints a very different picture from Monster, and it's a very different Eileen's if you're trying to understand her and why she committed
her crimes, it's a very different Eileen. If the first murder was triggered by her trying to save her own life during a rape, that's a very different Eileen from an Eileen who robbed and killed men. So there would be no witnesses, which she admitted with the case.
So your issue with the movie is as well, that there would be no possible way of misinterpreting the information and the evidence that it came out at trial that was published in books like Yourself, Your Book.
What they did Dan was to say it was based on the true story, a true story. Now to me, if you're going to change the core of who Eileen warn Off is, because she is quite an important figure in terms of the crime world and what we learn about the criminal mind, how these crimes are committed, and why then why not change her name in the film too? There was another critical difference, which was that Tyria was very much aware of what was going on. She was
in the sharing in the spoils of these robberies. She was taking the men's watches and jackets and things that Eileen would bring home and wearing them and have you. In the movie, they painted her the Christina Ricci character as this sort of little innocent who knew nothing about what was going on. Well, that wasn't true. There was also a lot made of Tye trying to get away
from Aileen once she became afraid of her. But right before the last murder, that you know, before the arrest, Tie had gone to Ohio for Thanksgiving to the family and she'd come back. Now, if she was afraid for her life, why did she get on the bus and come.
Back certainly, certainly.
Yeah. So these are core differences, don't.
You see those?
Those are yeah, Like you say, there is the truth and then there's there's fiction, and so the movie is fiction.
It's not alone, of course, in being based on a true story and then taking massive liberties with the real story. The trouble is the public at large. You know, see the movie, and I've done it myself, God knows many times, you know, whether it was you know, a film about Nixon or Kennedy or whatever. You take it at its face value, and that's what many people have done with Eileen.
But what has been the fallout from all this, Dan, is that the press, and by that I mean the newspapers from day one, began referring to her victims as her John's and painting them as you know, rapists who brutalized her. Now, in actual fact, you know one man, two men I think had closing off, and that of
course does indicate a sexual transaction. But we also know because of men who testified and who and men I interviewed, that Eileen traveled with a photograph of children, and she would flag down cars and she would say, I need to get back to my motel. My children are there. They're hungry. You know, I've got to get back. Can you give me a ride? And I think it's fair to say that some of these men actually were good Samaritans and gave her a ride. You know, it's not
fair to blanketly attack the victims. Imagine if the boot were on the other foot. Imagine if these victims were women killed by a male serial killer, and if the press were to you know, bad mouth them without a firm evidence to the contrary. I think we have to give the men the benefit of the doubt. Okay, if they were nude, yes, you know, sex was happening. That much we can assume. But we know from other witnesses that she had this and she'd get in the car
and then she'd try to rob men. We have men who you know, kind of parked at a gas station to get gas, sent her in to buy some cigarettes or whatever, and drove off because they found her so scary. And those men survived the encounter, as most did, of course, but also testified to the fact that she'd scared the living Jesus out of them, and that's what she'd done. She'd asked for a ride to get back to her children.
So you imagine the pain of these families not only is their loved one murdered, you know, assuming that probably you know, at least three or four of the seven were nice guys, but he's labeled as a sort of rapist monster.
I find it incredible to I agree with you because I've seen the same thing where a fair amount of information concerning the victims comes from the only last living witness, which is the killer. It's in herself interest to demonized the victim. And so, like you say, the family gets to hear an account of their loved one which is based on, you know, the self interest of the killer
trying to demonize the victim to their own benefit. And then the media again is irresponsible, I think, or ignorant, or a combination of both, putting too much credence in a defense lawyer's assertions, which again come from the killer themselves. I think that they're inexperienced, otherwise they wouldn't put that much credence to what a defense lawyer says on behalf of their client.
Well, as you know, and I mean, we're all guilty of this to some extent as journalists. You know, you look up what's been printed before, and you're in a rush, you're on a deadline, and things get repeated. But she became these men became her John's And that was a shorthand way of saying something that would fit in a very brief number of words, which is often a challenge as a journalist. But I think that it would be more accurate to say the men who picked her up
as a hitch hike. And the other thing is that you don't very often read about the fact that she went out with this bottle of windecks and the gun in the bag every day. Now, Okay, I can see the gun self protection, but why would you carry windecks? Now? The cars were wiped clean of fingerprints. You know, this was not a sudden thing out of the blue. There was some pre planning here and self protection on her part, but not against the men against being identified.
Now you talked about careful. She was careful to wipe off her fingerprints to not be detected for these murders. How did Aileen eventually get caught by police?
Well, at the pawn shop. By law, you have to give a fingerprint, and unlike some of the criminals were out there today who had the fingerprints sanded off or pramically altered. Aileen's fingerprints were Aileen's fingerprints, and in those days, fingerprints were hand sorted, you know, they were on cards. There was no computerized whatever. But eventually, by good old police work, good old fashioned police work, items at a porn shop where she had left her honest to god
fingerprint on the card tied together. And she had a record, she had a criminal record, and so once that fingerprint was found with the pawned items that tied with missing items from the men who died, then the gig was up. And at that point the police went after Tyria because they felt she was the less culpable. They had no real evidence that Rea was present at any of the murders. She had albies for a couple of the days, for example.
So they got hold of Tyrea first, and basically she gave her cooperation and wore a hidden wire and telephoned Eileen, who had been picked up on an outstanding gun Warrenton was in jail and said, you know, they're on to us, they know what you've done. I'm not going down for what you've done, and a series of you know, very poignant phone calls were taped, and I say poignant because Eileen said, you know, I love you. You know I'm not going to let you go down for something you
didn't do. And ultimately Eileen did confess, and you might say she confessed to save Tyree.
And that was the gist of those phone calls as well.
Yeah, it took a while to build up to that, but Eileen was suspicious. She said, are you sure there's nobody else there in the room with you, et cetera. But briefed by the police, I think I'm going to say there were seven, nine or eleven. Sorry, but it has been a long time taped telephone calls, and they accelerated the you know, the police were saying, come on, put more pressure on her, say that you're going to be arrested, and tied was sort of more emotional with
her on the phone. They think I did it. You know, they know who we are. There was a composite sketch done by an artist. They know it's us, you know, this sort of thing, and she convinced Eileen that she was going to be arrested, and Eileen said, look, I won't let that happen. And basically, you know, said I want to talk to a detective or whatever, and out came the three hour original fashion.
Now at trial, did Tyra testify against alien warnos?
Yes? She did.
Was that the testimony effective? And was there anything revealed at the at the trial that she didn't reveal? And say those phone calls? What you attended the trial? Tell us a little bit about that testimony.
Yeah, you know, for me, we are talking about nineteen ninety one here, So I don't want everyone to think I'm an amnesiac. But it's a long time since I first wrote this book and since I attended the trial. But what I remember most was ty came in. She'd been very cleaned up. She was wearing a sort of I mean, she always dressed very butch and T shirt
and jeans and what have you. She was wearing an outfit and it was a patterned, you know, outfit and with a skirt I think, and maybe it was a pantsuit but anywhere print, and had her hair cut and everything.
And Eileen's eyes did not leave her as she walked to the stand and as she took the stand, but ty did not once make eye contact back and Eileen was obviously waiting for this you know, for them to make eye contact, and she was devastated that Tye testified against her, absolutely devastated, And I think only then did it really hit her that Tie was as instrumental as she was in what was going down for Eileen right now.
In the book, it's another fascinating aspect of the story that Eileen Wernos's life and her need for celebrity and notoriety don't end. And there are some other people that come into her circle of influence there we'll say and tell us about to Arlene Prall praorly Yes.
Arlene Praley was a Christian woman who claimed that she saw Eileen on television and felt this calling, looked into her eyes and knew that she was innocent, and felt this calling to go and see her, and eventually, in order to facilitate the visits, she did adopt Eileen. Arlene adopted Eileen because that gave her more access to her in jail. So there was this adoption for a time.
They're incredibly close. But by the time Eileen was executed, I rang Arlene Pray, who by them was no longer living in Florida and was living on an island somewhere and I rang her and she didn't know about the execution. I sort of broke that news to her. She had not even heard. But that's how they're relationship was. At that point they were no longer talking.
Now. Another figure is a Jacqueline Garrow. Maybe you can tell us who she was and what her Jackie position was.
Jackie Chreu is a film producer and actually I'd known her. I lived in Hollywood and I'd known Jackie for a long time casually, you know, and Jackie, well, it was a bit of a convoluted story, but she had a HouseGuest who was a friend of her, both of us, and I rang the house that day and asked to speak to the HouseGuest and she said, Sue, it's me, you know, And I said, what are you doing? And she said, I'm going to make a movie about this woman,
Eileen Warnoff. And so why did actually write a book about her? And so that's really how that came about. So Jackie Cheru was hot on the trail of this from the minute of the arrest. Flew to Florida and signed up movie rights with Eileen through a lawyer, and of course it then all got much more complicated, and you know, the basically, Eileen was very much wanting money.
She always wanted money. It's funny this morning I read on pointer that ABC News I believe ABC News I can check when we're talking, had paid two hundred thousand dollars to the Casey Anthony family for video and pictures. Well, similarly, news organizations were paying Eileen money ten thousand here, ten thousand. There wasn't the big bucks at ABC paid to the
Ksey Anthony family. But she was getting this money and she lauded it over her team outside the prisons said, Okay, this much goes to this one and this much goes to that one. And she set exercised control from behind bars over these people. And Arlene Prowley was, you know, this was top of the list. Because of course Eileen couldn't receive the money herself, or at least only a limited amount for her touch shop purchases or whatever they're allowed in the prison account.
Did Jackie Guru end up making the movie?
Jackie Drew did make a movie, but she had a lot of troubles with it because, first of all, while I was writing the book, CBS rushed out a TV movie starring Gene Smart, which was as inaccurate as you could wish in terms of painting Tyreea again as unaware of the crimes, and you know, what have you. And then of course, you know, long came Monster and I don't you'd have to ask Jackie Drew herself about her
movie journey. But it was quite a journey, and all kinds of ins and outs for people trying to stop and make the movie. And then you know, there were issues of three police officers having an agreement with CBS where they would cooperate in the making of that first movie. And although ultimately it was not proven that they had taken money. And this was pre trial, by the way,
so this was pretty bad stuff. I do have a copy of the draft letter of the agreement that the police officers were supposedly going to sign from that time, but it does not bear signatures, and I do believe that they backed out, you know, but at the time
they were being offered quite a chunk of change. And then there was somebody running around trying to sell transcripts of the confession, the three hour confession before before that was made put in the public domain and was accessible to journalists like myself and you know, asking ten thousand dollars for that. So it was a zoo, Dan, It was a zoo. It's the kind of zoo that we now see more commonly, you know, with cases like Casey Anthony, But back then it was a sort of standout zoo,
if you will. And her greed for the money essentially cut off my contact with her because I wasn't going to pay her, and you know, people like the news organizations and Montell Williams ended up getting much more access to her. Nick Broomfield, the documentarian, because they did pay money.
I saw a program are concerning Lee Warren else on American Justice, and I thought it was a fair program as a reputable program as well, not as well, but it is a reputable program, I should say, right, and they do handle the cases in a very respectful and truthful way, I find so. Yes, now you said that she was ultimately sentenced to sixth death sentences. Was she executed? When was she executed?
Yes, she was executed, she was indeed, and totally coincidentally, you know, within a month or or so of my book coming out in America, and you know that was just looking to see who I can find the date here, but anyway, it was two thousand and two. It was the fall of two thousand and two. And yeah, I mean she was executed and the last high profile woman to have been executed. And I don't think any woman's been executed in Florida since Iileen, but I would have
to check that. Ultimately, she gave up her appeals. She wanted to die, She wanted to go and be with God. And she had at the time a lawyer, Stephen Glazier, who honored and respected that wish of hers, which caused outrage in the legal community, who believed that, you know, if a client says they want to die, you certainly
don't help them on their way. Perhaps, you know, after when she I talked to her, Eileen, very but briefly, the night before she got her first death sentence by telephone, and we spoke and it was very apparent to me that she expected to get off.
She did.
There wasn't a corner of her mind that thought she was going to be found guilty. She cried on the witness stand. She told this horror story, but it didn't match the evidence, and of course she was found guilty. She was devastated Dan. She was doubtless in a state
of depression. She then got three more death sentences, which were what's the word she pled out basically, and so therefore there were sentencing hearings and I attended those as well, and so she basically sort of caved in and said, look, okay, I did it. She didn't even fight. There wasn't another trial after the first trial. It was a no contest issue, and she did reach a point when she just wanted
to give up the appeals. She had disintegrated emotionally. She was never the most stable person, as we've said, but on death row she'd definitely gone downhill. But that said, she'd also embraced the Bible, embraced God, embraced her religion, believed she was going to a better place, and that was what she wanted. She'd had ten years shut in a cell on her own, and it was like, you know enough already. I don't want any more of this.
And so at that point she dropped her appeals, and there were various hearings in front of judges to be sure that that was what she wanted, and eventually all was cleared and nothing further stood in the way of her execution and it went ahead.
Now do you think you talk in your book extensively about the psychopathic mind of the serial killers that crave celebrity. They want the notoriety above almost anything else. You talked about her late embrace of Christianity or later embrace before she died. Do you really believe that she enjoyed this entire again moment in the sun her attention?
Well, yeah, well, you know you have to look at it this way. She talked to Cammy Green about, you know, do you want to get involved in something with me? And Ty were going to be like Bonnie and Clyde.
She kept talking about Bonnie and Clyde, when before she had committed any of the murders we know about, she got hold of this chap who was a writer slash coach driver, and had him come over to the motel that they were living in one evening because she wanted him to write her life story, and he was so freaked out that he kind of fled from the motel and never to be seen again. She when she was in jail, she talked about being I'm Eileen Warnos of television.
You know, wait till heraldo here's about this. There was definitely some grandiosity, and yes, I do believe she wanted to be famous. I just don't think she believed it would end up the way it ended up up. You know, it's arguable, I guess how conscious all of this was played into her thinking. I still believe that she was a robber who killed, but definitely she wanted fame. And back then, you know, when she was a little more of sound mind, she pursued come to you know, think
about it. Before she'd done anything, she said, I'm going to tell you to this author slash coach driver, I'm going to tell you things that you know will make your hair stand on end, that you've you know, things you've never heard before. I don't know, I don't know. It was there more to tell I don't know. But this was before the first murder. What did she think this book was going to be about? What was she going to write a book about? I have no idea,
but she wanted a book written about her. She wanted fame. She wanted, you know, to be famous for sure, and the Bonnie and Clyde fantasy was big with her and long lasting.
Well, so we just have about a minute left. I'd like to let people know that you've been talking about the book A Lethal Intent, the most shocking shocking two story of one America's most notorious female serial killers, Eileen Warren. Else, maybe you can tell us what you're working on now and your website contact for anybody that's interested, please.
Yes, absolutely, Well, my website is www dot Sue.
S U E.
Russell r U S S E. L L Rights w R I T E S dot com, Sue russellwits dot com. What I'm working on now? Ha ha ha ha. Wouldn't you like to know?
That's that question?
Actually am working on another crime book proposal, and hopefully we'll be able to talk about that soon, but it's a bit premature right now. But I've been writing about wildfire technology for a wonderful website called Miller mckewne dot com. Just had a five part series with them on extreme wildfire fighting and the advances in computer imaging and mapping and what have you. And I've written about fingerprints and bias and all kinds of forensic stuff, you know, for
non books, for magazines and websites. So that's really been the most recent stuff.
Well, very interesting stuff. I want to thank you very much to Russell, and I want you to have a great day, and I want to thank you very much for this fascinating interview.
Thank you, Dan. I appreciated it and I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed it very much myself. You have a great day, Take care, Bye bye bye. You're listening to the program True Murder, The More Shocking Killers in True Crime History, with your host Dan SUPASKI. Good night.
For those who have been listening to the special rebroadcast of Lethal Intent, my original interview with Sue Russell about her book Lethal Intent. She contacted me on the sixtieth what would have been sixtieth birthday of Aleen Warnos, the subject of Lethal Intent and special offer of an audible audio book. There's two of them to give away. I know it was short notice and didn't post this program till this evening, so a lot of the fans that would be very interested in this, I'm sure might not
have an opportunity for this. So I had originally said that the first two people that called in after this program aired, and since I didn't give enough advanced notice of that, then what I'm going to do is for anyone who listens to this program this evening. The first two people that contact me via my personal email address, which is Dan dot zupanskis up A n. S k Y at gmail dot com. The first two listeners to this program whenever that may be, contact me at my
personal Gmail address, and you can win. Not you can win, you will. I'll give you the code so that you will have and be sent and have access to an audible audiobook version of Lethal Intent. So I want to thank you very much for listening to this special rebroadcast. And again, if you're interested for an audible audiobook version of Lethal Intent, contact me via my personal email. Good night,