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You are now listening to True Murder The Most Shocking Killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Good Evening. Don Miller was quiet and reserved. As a former youth pastor, he seemed to devout christian No one would have ever suspected that the recent graduate of the Michigan State University the School of Criminal Justice was a serial killer. However, when Miller was arrested for the attempted murder of two teenagers in nineteen seventy eight, police quickly realized he was probably responsible for the disappearances of for women. Offered a still controversial plea bargain, he led police to
the bodies of the missing women. Now, after forty years in prison, Miller has served his time and is due to be released into an unsuspecting population. In Killing Women, author Rodney Sadler examines the crimes the justice meeted out in the impending freedom of a man. Nationally renowned psychiatrist doctor Frank Auckberg wrote, is a member of a small deadly dangerous population. Murderers whose stock capture, torture, and kill.
Murderers who derive sexual and narcissistic gratification from their predation. Murderers who maintain a mascousy appearing normal and harmless. The book that we're featuring this evening is Killing Women, the true story of serial killer Don Miller's Reign of Terror, with my special guest, former officer and author Rod Sadler. Welcome back to the program, and thank you so much for this interview. Rod Sadler.
Thank you, Dan. It is certainly a pleasure to be here. It always is, and I always enjoy a good talk about my books. Thank you again.
Thank you. Absolutely, we always have a fascinating time talking about the various perpetrators, and this one is no exception. Very fascinating, very fascinating case. Let's talk about just briefly. You serve with the Eaton County Sheriff's Department, a thirty year career. You had interesting Robert K. Wrestler, same alma mater, Michigan State University. In August seventy eight, where the story starts.
You had just began your criminals, began studying criminal justice in the fall of nineteen seventy eight, three weeks after Miller's arrest.
That is.
Go ahead, Sorry, go ahead.
I was just going to say yes, that is correct. I graduated in nineteen seventy eight, began college in the fall, and that was literally three weeks after Don Miller's arrest. Early in my career, I had Early early in my career, I had decided on law enforcement as a career. I knew what I was going to do, and as I was finishing high school, these women had come up missing
in the East Lancy area. I grew up in a small town east of Michigan State University, about twenty miles, so it was a big local story every time one of these women came up missing, and so I kind of followed it. And then when Miller was eventually arrested, that was about the same time I was starting to
get ready to go to college. And the interesting part about this whole thing is that I have a unique perspective writing this because throughout my career I had the chance to associate with and make friends with numerous people that were involved in this case, from the first police officers that were involved, to judges, prosecutors, and even Miller's
own defense attorney. All became colleagues and friends of mine, and I didn't realize the amount of or how many of them there really were at the time until late in my career. The other unique perspective is that I did my career through the Eaton County Sheriff's office, and that is where Don Miller was arrested, was in Eton County and was lodged at the Eton County Jail about ten years before I started there, So a lot of those same people were working there when I started.
Now you take us right away in the book to a very incredibly vivid and horrifying scene. This is August sixteenth, nineteen seventy eight, and this is near Lansing, Michigan, East Lansing. This is two days after a woman, a teacher named Christian Stewart, was reported missing. Now there is a you describe as because this person made a report. Tell us about this incredible event where this thirteen year old girl, fourteen year old girls at home with their thirteen year
old brother, and there's a man at the door. Tell us what happens when this man that she doesn't know anything about, bangs at the door. What happens, what does he do, and what event is set off as a result.
Actually, what happened was Lisa and Randy Gilbert lived in a brand new house. They'd only lived there for two months. They lived with their dad and their stepmom, and every day at three o'clock they were required to call their stepmom at work she in fact worked at Michigan State University, and just to get a list of yours to do, or just to check in with her. Every day at
three o'clock. Well, behind the house was a small pond, if you will, They refer to it as a lagoon, and Randy liked to go out there in fifth she was thirteen years old and Lisa was just being a teenage girl listening to the radio. And because the house was so new, every once in a while a contractor would show up and have to do some quick repairs or finish a little job. So they were used to seeing contractors come to the house while their parents were
at work. So that particular afternoon, as three o'clock approached, Lisa went out to the back pond and yelled for her brother to come on into the house because it was almost three o'clock and they were gonna have to call their stepmom. The garage door was open. As she came around the edge of the house, she noticed a brown car in the driveway and she figured it was
probably another contractor covered by the house. And as she walked into the garage, Mail came out from the house into the garage and he asked if her dad was home, and she said no, And he said, do you have a piece of paper where you can write down my numbers so I can call him? Write down his number
so I can call him, And she said sure. So as she goes back into the house, he follows her in and she begins to look through a drawer for a piece of paper and a pencil, and suddenly she's grabbed from behind, an arm around her neck, and she can see a knife held up to her face, and he takes her into the bedroom, into her parents' bedroom,
where he has obviously already been. He has laid out a couple of neck ties he took from her dad's closet, and he ties her up and he rapes her, and when he's done with that, he takes a small, thin leather belt that she had had around her shorts. And now she's understand that this is difficult for some people. But she was laying face down with her hands bound behind her back, with her ankles bound, and she was
completely nude at that point. And he wrapped that belt around her neck and he began to pull and strangle her. And as that occurred, she began to get dizzy. She couldn't breathe. She was close to passing out, and he pulled so tight on that thin belt that it broke. And at the instant that that belt broke, her brother walked in to the kitchen, and Miller heard her brother, and she heard her brother, and Miller quickly dropped the belt or the pieces of the belt and went out
to the kitchen area. And Randy saw him coming out and he said, hey, how you doing, And Randy said good, and he kind of circled around behind Randy and he grabbed Randy around the neck, held a knife up to his throat, and he said, where's your bedroom at and so Randy told him it was upstairs, and he started walking up the stairs. Well, Randy was a thirteen year old, skinny as a rail, but feisty, and he wasn't going without a fight. So there was a brief struggle on
the stairs, Miller got back a hold of him. They got up to his bedroom. Miller laid him face down on the floor and started to cut his throat with the knife. Randy started screaming at that point, and he was able to get his hand around and grab the knife away from his neck and thrown under the bed. So Miller instead began to strangle him, and he choked him to the point where he passed out. And then Miller retrieved the knife from under the bed and he
stabbed Randy twice in the chest. So now Randy is unconscious. He's bleeding from stab wounds in a neck wound where Miller tried to cut his throat. And while Miller was attacking Randy, Lisa downstairs heard Randy screaming and she fled from the house. She was able to get the front door and locked. She ran out into traffic nude, with her hands tied behind her back. She was able to get her feet free and she was screaming for help. Luckily, there was an employee from General Motors and Lancing and
he saw her run out. He was traveling southbound and the Delta Township fire chief was traveling northbound and they both saw her run out into traffic. Well, she got to the GM employee first and was screaming that somebody was trying to kill her brother. She'd been raped. Just about that time, the Delta township fire chief the first witness, and the witness said to him, get her in your car, and the witness pulled into the driveway and started for the house. He was going to confront or see what
was going on. And about that time, Miller came out the front door, and so they had a brief discussion, and the witness said to him, he said, is there a boy that's hurt in that house? And Miller said, I don't know, maybe, and he said, will you just wait right here until the police get here. And at that point, Miller stepped off the porch, ran by him,
jumped into his car, and fled. But before he was able to flee, the witness was able to get his license plate number, and that began a whole series of events that resulted in Don Miller's literally his last day of freedom in his life.
So far, right now, they simply are able to have these witnesses, They have the license plate number, So how easy it is? It for them to arrest Don Miller. You say that was his last day of freedom. So tell us just a little bit about the arrest before we go backwards as you do in terms of how much police know at that time or suspect about Don Miller.
Well, under Michigan law, if a police officer has reason to believe that a felony was committed and reason to believe that a specific person committed it, they can arrest that person without a warrant. And so when the first officer pulled up and got the license plate number from the witness, he ran the license plate number through the Law Enforcement Information Network and it came back to Don Miller. By that time, everybody in mid Michigan knew who Don
Miller was. And we'll get into that in just a minute. But as soon as he figured out that the car that fled was registered to Don Miller, the Sheriff's office put out a I'll use a television terom here in APB all points bulletin that really they just put out a radio broadcast to all the area police agencies saying that they had just had a rape and attempted murder and that the suspect vehicle they described it and said
that it was registered to Don Miller. As soon as that radio broadcast went out, the East Lansing Police Department, which was about twenty miles to the east of Delta Township, has occurred heard that Don Miller was wanted in that rape and attempted murder. And so they all fanned out to his apartment, his girlfriend's apartment, I'm sorry, his home,
his girlfriend's apartment, and they caught him. They caught him coming back to his girlfriend's apartment, and they arrested him within forty minutes of the rape.
Now, you say, interestingly, an officer named Rick Westgate at the same time, here's the police broadcast, and who is he and what case was he working on?
Rick Westgate? Rick Westgate was a sergeant with the Athlantan Police Department, and he was brought on early in the disappearance of a young lady by the name of Marcus Sue Young. And this would have been about eighteen months earlier than this rape. And to Sue Young was the fiance of Don Miller and Don New Year's Eve in nineteen seventy six. Don Miller and Martha Sue Young were together. They had gone to a house the babysit for some kids. Don was living with his parents at the time. He
and Martha Sue Young, who were friends. They had very briefly been engaged, but Martha had told her mother that she had broken off the engagement a few days before New Year's and so they had remained friends. She said that Don had let her keep the engagement ring and they would still be friends. So New Year's Eve, they went to babysit. They went back to Don's parents, they watched the movie It's a Mad, Mad, Mad Mad World, and then they left and Don Miller took her out
any strangle her, he killed her. He came back home and about two am and told his mom that he'd left Martha sitting on the front porch of her house after he dropped her off. And so this was the initial missing person report. Rickquestgate worked on that along with Dean Tucker, who was a sergeant at the time. He was later promoted the lieutenant, but they were the two lead investigators for the Atlants And Police Department on that initial missing person case. Marche so Young.
Right now, with this, Rick Westgate and Dean Tucker, now, how were they then involved with the recent events with the thirteen and the fourteen year old, the Gilbert the Gilbert brother and sister. So how did police proceed with that prosecution.
Well, once Don Miller was a staid eighteen months after Martha Sue Young had come up missing, really that case was separate from any of the East Lansing cases. East Lansing is located in Ingham County, which is where Lancing, the county seat I'm sorry, not the county seat, but the state capitol is located. Eaton County, where the rape of Lisa Gilbert and the attempt to murder of her and Randy occurred, is literally on the border of Ingham County. It's the next county to the west, so you really
have two jurisdictions there. So the prosecution of Don Miller for the rape and attempted murder of the teenagers occurred in Eaton County, and so they brought in their own detectives who investigated the rape and the attempted murders, while at the same time, the East Lansing Police, the Michigan State University Police, and the Ingram County Sheriff's Department all became involved even more actively in trying to find evidence that Miller was somehow tied into the disappearance of Martha
Sue Young and three other missing women.
Now, when we talk, when we go back to the Martha Sue Young, to the mother Sue Young, her father Lee lived out of state. But also what's crucial to this story is the actions, behavior, and maybe even the attitude of Jean Miller, Don Miller's father and his mother. I believe Elaine. So just as you write in the book, explain sort of the interaction between the Miller family and police in terms of asking questions about Don and especially that evening in questions.
Well, the Milbers, Jane and Elaine, we were friends with the Young family because they all went to the same church, and that's how Don became acquainted with Martha Sue. When this investigation began into Martha Sue's disappearance, police questioned Don and basically he was very stoic in his responses. He didn't offer anything to them unless he was asked a specific question. And so the police, after speaking with him at the house, they had him come in that afternoon
for an interview. They weren't satisfied with his answers, so they went back over to his parents' house and said, hey, can we can we look in your car?
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No personess is every dvoidvery by lost in terms of you know, maybe she dropped her keys and that's why she didn't go home last night. And both Don and Jean were like, well, sure. The police says they got into the vehicle, they found a blood spot on the front seat, and so things began to get more and more suspicious, and they began to focus a little bit
more on done. After two or three days, Don came in for a polygraph exam why detector test, which he failed, and as the police wanted to talk to him more and more, Gene Miller became, I'm going to say more defensive of his son, and he basically said, I'm going to hire an attorney, and he did. He hired an attorney by the name of Bengston, and Benston's said, because he's out, he's hired to look out for his client's' rights. And he said, you're not going to talk to my
client anymore unless you go through me first. And so the hands of the Atlantic police department were tied at that point. They were allowed one interview one additional interview with Tom Benston present, but their questions had to be handwritten and Benston was able to review those before any before Don was asked to answer them. So it became kind of a cat and mouse game, if you will,
in that the police suspected Miller. I think deep down they knew that he probably had killed Martha Sue, but they couldn't prove it, and by Gene Miller hiring Tom Benkston, they couldn't. They couldn't interview Miller anymore, and they had no body, They had no evidence at that point, so their hands were tied.
They did get to speak to Sue Young, and she did say some very interesting things early on about Don Miller's supposed religiosity and some of the things he said regarding God and God's will in terms of the relationship between Martha and him.
Yes, Don was Don was. I hate to use the term obsessed, but everything in Don's life revolved around his Christianity or his legend Christianity, and even in his relationship with Martha Sue Young, he would tell her that it was God's will that they be married, and that if she did mary him, she was going against God's will. And he would he would write her letters and talk
about his Christianity. It was just very odd to her, and he would it would come up in the middle of a conversation as they were speaking, he'd throw in some Christianity or religion. And so that became a concern of hers. Two. She was concerned that he didn't really have a full time job, even though he was a graduate of the Michigan State University School of Criminal Justice. You know, he was working as a security guard. Actually at that point he hadn't even gotten that job. He
was seeking a job as a security guard. So yeah, he had almost an obsession with Christianity. And does I would say does to this day.
Now in terms of this disappearance of Martha Sue Young. They police believe that he's a suspect, and now he has an attorney representing the family, So what else do they try to do in futility? But what do they try to do regardless of that attorney being.
Involved, Well, basically it's a missing person's case. Even though they suspect, there's more to it than that. They did a background on Martha. They knew that she was supposed to beget a brand new job right after the first of the year. They knew that she'd left one hundred and twenty five dollars check in her top dresser drawer that was from her mother. There was absolutely no reason for her to leave town voluntarily. So basically they were trying to show, hey, this girl has no reason to
run away or to leave. There's no indication that she was going to leave all of her all of her things are still at her house. And so that was really the angle they had to take at that point because they had no physical evidence that there was any foul play, and with with not being able to talk to to Miller anymore, again, their hands are tied, so they're they're trying to do what they can, but it's a slowgo. What about.
The police ask for a polygraph to be conducted, and what does What's his response?
He takes the polygraph. As a matter of fact, he took two polygraphs and he failed both of them. Uh, and I say failed. The police were convinced that he was being deceptive. They didn't come right out and say that he was lying, that he was being deceptive in his answers, But a polygraph in under Michigan law, you know, you couldn't use that in a courtroom. It's simply a tool to use as a means to an end.
Now, in terms of his timeline, in terms of what he said happened, what does he say he happened, In terms of that eleven thirty to two am, what is he supposed to have done? And then what's the investigation to confirm or refute that.
He said that that they had after they watched a movie at his parents' house, they were going.
To look at Christmas lights, and that's what they He said they parked a couple times and made out, and that he brought her back to the house at about one fifty five am, or a couple of minutes to two, and that she got out of the car, he gave her a little kiss, she sat down on the front porch, and he backed out of the driveway and left her sitting there. What was peculiar to the police was that it was eleven degrees outside with sixteen mile an hour winds.
And you live in Canada, so you got to know sixteen mile an hour wins when it's eleven degrees outside, it's pretty cold. That seemed odd to them. Beyond that, they did look in Miller's car. By that time, he had taken her glasses and they were under the front and they missed those in their initial search of the car, and then Miller got rid of those right after that search,
so they missed that. Miller stuck to his story, and then he said in a subsequent interview he changed his story, and he said that he had gone to the Trinity Church in the East Lansing with Martha Sue because they were going to go there and pick up his sister who was supposedly there for New Year's Eve service. Police interviewed the pastor at the church and he said, well, the only people that were here were adults. There were
no kids here. It was a small crowd, and I would have noticed if there was younger, you know, college age students here, I would have noticed that. And so they spoke with Miller, his mother, they spoke with his sister, and they were able to show that, in fact, there was a service there, but it was in the basement. Miller said to the police that when he had gone to the church, that he went in the main sanctuary, on the main floor and everybody was standing up singing,
So they basically caught him in a lie. At that point, they caught him in a lie, and that came up again in a grand jury investigation when they confronted his sister. You're right.
By May of that year, the reward they had put on a reward, that reward had expired. There was a few leads were followed up with was nothing. The investigation slows to a snails pasue right. And then in Clinton County's bath township, two hunters found clothing eerily laid out like a body, orange and red colored pants, pantyhose inside and panties inside the panty hose. But the clothing there a long time. A couple of sweaters of bra, scarf,
then also a purse an id was found. Tell us what those hunters found.
Well, they had gone pheasant hunting. It was two buddies that worked at the local GM plant and they were out pheasant hunting that day and they came across these this set of clothes that literally was laid out like a body, and it was almost as if someone had been in those clothes and just simply disappeared. The bra was inside two sweaters. The sweater was inside a coat, you know, the sleeves were tucked down inside the sleeves
of the coat. The panties were inside the pants. They were at the base of the at the base of the coat. The shoes were were at the bottom of the pants. And it was as if literally someone had been laying there and just vanished. And there was a purse there, and they looked in the purse and discovered the identification of Martha Sue Young, and one of them
realized that she was the missing person from ten months earlier. So, and I don't know why they did this, but they finished their little hunting excursion, and then they went to a local party store and called the police, and obviously the state police came out, the East Lansing Police, and
that was collected as evidence. It was clear that the clothing had been there a while because there was some small saplings that were growing up through the sweater, so they knew the clothing had been there for a long time, and it was Martha Souex Young's clothing, But there was still nobody that basically conforms not only to them, but also to Martha's mother, Sue, that.
She was dead, Yeah, you say, Also, investigations seems stalled. And then we have the disappearance of Marita Choquette, a twenty seven year old Bachelor of Arts in English, wanted to write for a law magazine. She has a couple sisters, very close with their family, a brief two year marriage, and she spoke of a man she met who was married, and her friend advised her not to see him. So tell us a little bit about what happens with Marita Choquette and her disappearance.
Marita was she worked for the Michigan State University radio station WKAAR, and she lived in the small town of Graham Ledge, which is in Eaton County, near the northeast corner of the county, and that's literally where she was last seen. Her dad was a minister up in Fremont, Michigan, and when he didn't hear from her, he called a friend of hers to go see if if she was home, maybe she was sick, And the friend knocked and there
was no answer and said she wasn't there. So the next day the minister called the grand Ledge Police Department, and so the grand Ledge Police Department began a missing person investigation. And then the following morning w Kair, one of the employees pulled in and noticed Marita's car there, and it was parked in an unusual spot. She normally parked in a specific spot, and she was nowhere to be found. She wasn't in the building, her lunch wasn't there.
And so they made the connection with the Grand Ledged Police Department and they said, yeah, her dad had called, and so they began an investigation grand Ledge Police and the Michigan State University Police into Mariita's disappearance. Marita had This was actually eight months after the clothing of Martha Sue Young was found in actually eighteen months after Martha Sooux Young had come up missing. So it's been quite some time, and police had not now that they had
Mariita missing. They hadn't made the correlation between the two. There was no connection that the two cases we were similar at that point, and and Mariita did she'd spoken with a friend of hers. She wanted a relationship. She had been married very briefly to a guy and they
had divorced after a short period. She wanted a relationship, by all accounts, and she'd run across the guy at a local tire repair store, and he suggested maybe that they get together for a cup of coffee, but she had found out that he was married, and it wasn't Don Miller, I can tell you that. But so that's how Marita's case began to evolve.
You write that, regardless of whether there's a definitive link, there is surveillance put on Miller. And when that surveillance is on Miller, what does a witness see him doing regarding his car?
Well, on the day I'm almost certain it was the day that Marita's body was found. Her body was found two weeks after on the initial report of her disappearance, So you had Martha sum missing. Marita was missing for two weeks, but they did locate her body, and that particular day, Miller was under surveillance and they saw that he was scrubbing the front seat of his car, the back portion of the front seat of his car on the passenger side.
Mm hmmm, which you right about.
I was just going to say to to me in my career, we call this a clue.
Yeah, you right. Yeah. You write that that she was found nude from the waist up, but very interestingly, her hands were cut off tell us about whether those hands were found and what do people observing, professionals, police looking at the situation, at the crime scene, what do they think there are aspects of this present.
Well, when she was found, her body was covered with bricks and I want to describe him as slabs of concrete used to build the side of a silo, a farm silo. So her body was buried. As the investigators began to take those bricks away and document the evidence, they discovered that her hands had been cut off and they were found under another small set of bricks, and they were literally in a almost as if they were praying.
And so when the forensic pathologists looked at those he said, Wow, the whoever cut her hands off with this precision made him wonder if it wasn't maybe a health professional or somebody like that. So they had they had her hands cut off in a praying fashion. They had what they believed the way that the bricks were stacked, maybe an altar of some sort. So they began to think maybe
this was a religious killing. Uh, there was a There was all sorts of theories at that point, and in the end it boiled down to one simple reason that her hands were cut off. Mm hmm.
Now at the same time, what's interesting about this is that this is in the area of the Michigan State University campus. A couple of these bodies of a couple of people are connected to this campus. Now, this Wendy Bush, apparently another blonde, doesn't it, hadn't heard, apparently of these other two women who had gone missing, wasn't aware. She agrees to a ride, tell us what happens and who the driver is.
Well, on the day that Maria Choquat's body was found, Wendy Bush, another MSU co ed, was on the MSU campus, and she was actually last seen with with with a man kind of generally fitting Don Miller's description. But she was walking back to Case Hall, which is a dorm on the MSU campus, and Don Miller was out hunting, if you will, and he saw her walking and she accepted a ride with him, and he pulled into Case Hall,
into the parking lot. And by all accounts that I read and researched, Wendy was a very talkative person, somewhat flirtatious, a kind of let a free lifestyle. And I don't say that in a negative way. She's just she wasn't as conservative maybe as some, and Miller hated that. Miller hated women, and he placed his hand on her shoulder and then suddenly grabbed her around the throat and strangled her.
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Now you talked about Wendy Bush. Now he's killed Wendy Bush, he strangled her. And then meanwhile, this what we have to explain is that meanwhile there is all of these other things going on. And then interestingly, the Tom Bankston who's been represented the family has secured him as for the family to make sure that their son's rights are protected.
He is asked at that time, once he gets the news about his client now having these far more serious charges, even more serious charges, what does that lawyer say about his client's potential guilt.
Well, he didn't, he didn't think that. When Miller was arrested two months after Wendy Bush's murder and two days after Christine Stewart's disappearance, Thingston wondered how it was that police thought that he was responsible for those disappearances and and and that murder. I'm sorry that rape and attempted murder of the Gilbert children. When when the other when Marita Chilqutt's body was discovered and he heard about that, he made no connection with his client. He didn't even
think about it, he said. When I interviewed him, he said, I just figured out, well, whoever killed her has got some psychological problems. So he still was protecting his clients' rights. And he wondered how the police had come up with this, this theory that Miller had attacked the Gilbert children.
What about this Reverend Mittman and Marita's car?
What does he find that was interesting? After Marita's initial missing person case was filed, the police seized her car and.
It was.
It was searched and they didn't they didn't find anything, but uh, they had to take it to the gas station for some repairs, and and Mittman went to pick it up afterward, and he discovered a knife on the front seat and so he reported it and the police were like, a knife, Well, how could they have missed that at the crime lab? You know, there's there's no way.
And so they checked and they said, yeah, that knife wasn't there when when the car was here, and so they began to backtrack and they actually went back to the gas station and they said, oh, yeah, that looks like a knife that we give away as a promotional thing, a steak knife that we give away as a promotional
thing to our customers. And it turned out it was one of the one of the mechanics at the gas station had actually used a promotional knife to cut off a fuel line to repair it so that Mittman could pick up the cars. So it was just a series of odd coincidences that really had absolutely nothing to do with the murder.
And also a little well not a little deta what a lead that looked pretty promising, as the pastor said, there was a guy named Kensington and they should look into his background. So when they did, they saw that he was arrested for assault and that's been at the Kalamazoo State Hospital. What about this questioning? And he did look good at in the beginning, but it happens with him as a suspect.
He did look good. I can tell you that when I interviewed the detective that worked on that case, he said, we thought he did it. We thought he was a very very good suspect, and they interviewed him and he was, I'm gonna say, for purposes of this interview, a little on the high strung side. He smoked repeatedly, one cigarette right after the other. He'd smoked him right down to
a nub. He had kind of a odd background, family life, things like that, and he'd made some statements about taking a life, that was people had the right to take a life, or something to that effect. And so they thought seriously that that he was he was a good suspect. The boy they worked on him as a suspect, the
less enthused they became about him being involved. And by that time things had already accelerated with Christine Stewart's disappearance in the Gilbert Children, so they kind of refocused their investigation after that.
Tell us a little bit about the Kristin Stewart disappearance. She's married to a guy named Ernie Mary for eight years and reported her missing and we haven't there's been. These are extensive searches, air search, a ground search in these cases as well. So what happens with this what do they find, if anything? In the Christian Stewart case.
Well, what happened with Christine was she had taken her car to a downtown Lansing auto repair shop for some bodywork, and she took the bus back to a shopping area it's called Frandor near East Lansing in the MSU campus, and she was going to walk from there up to her house, which was just like a mile up the road. And she was walking up there and she disappeared. Ernie got home from work that night and it was clear
the dog hadn't been let out all day. There were things that normally would have been done that weren't, and so he called the East Lansing Police Department that night and they said, well, there's really you know, she has to be missing for twenty four hours and there's really nothing we would be able to do tonight, but police call back tomorrow morning if she doesn't show up. So by five thirty or six am, she still wasn't home, and he called, and so East Lansing Police began their
investigation into her disciplate parents. So now you have Martasu missing eighteen months earlier, you have Marita Choquette who was missing, whose body was found stabbed and her hands cut off, and you have Wendy Bush missing. Now you have Christine Stewart missing, and the Atlantian Police Department have now put two and two together and they realize, hey, there's somebody going around killing women. So they organize air search foot search.
They're checking the route that she would have taken, and they discover her glasses. They're able to quickly identify them as hers. They go to the shop where they were bought and there's a way of tracking the serial numbers on them, and they prove that those are her glasses. There's also a skid mark in the street right where her glasses found and they don't know if it's related
to her disappearance or what. So they begin this investigation, and then two days later, as they're delving into it, Don Miller breaks into the Gilbert home and rapes Lisa Gilbert, who tries to kill her and her brother, and is arrested. And that's when this whole, this whole mess begins to come together.
He's ay arrested. He speaks briefly, you say, just in the vehicle about powers controlling his mind, but I didn't say too much. They took swabs from him, so they want warrants for his body, hair, blood's live of perspiration, urine. What do they find in the car? It's very interesting, especially in the trunk.
Well they found they found a chain that was wire together, almost as if it would be used to restrain someone. They found some rubber gloves, they found some one piece disposable suits, all just odd things that there was. Actually there was a tent in there. They were able to track back to where he had gone camping the week before. But the rubber gloves, the disposable suits, the chain tied together. They made note of all that. They were able to
vacuum the car for hair and trace fiber evidence. All the while, Miller's sitting in jail and they do an initial interview with him, and basically he tells them nothing other than he was shopping that day. It couldn't have been him. He's a Christian. He doesn't know how they got the description of him. He doesn't know how they got his license plate number. And there was two investigators interviewing him, and one of those investigators is a friend
of mine. His name is Norm Kelly, and Norm Kelly was probably one of the finest interrogators I've ever known. And Norm had a very easy going ability to interview people. The guy that was with him had just been promoted to lieutenant detective lieutenant, and he didn't have the skills that Norm Kelly did, and so it was kind of like, I'm going to use the term good cop, bad cop
when they were interviewing him. And finally the detective lieutenant said, look, we got your cold hand, we've got your license number, we know you did it, and Miller clammed right up and he said, I don't want to talk to you anymore. And that was the end of it. And Norm Kelly to this day thinks that if he'da had a little more time, he would have gotten down the order to confess right right?
What was it about? What was it about that interview that gave him that kind of optimism that he could elicit a confession from him?
Honestly, I believe that it was probably because I've seen Norm work, and with thirty years law enforcement experience, you just get a feeling when somebody's going to crack, and I suspect, although I wasn't there, that Don probably was getting a little nervous and his response, at least his body language was showing that. And Norm was certain that if he could continue the interview, he would get him to crack, and unfortunately Miller said, no, I don't want to talk to you anymore.
Yeah. Now, at the same time, and this is a common ploy, but they happen to have a stick of a maximum security and there's an inmate named Ron Rainey, and right away, according to Ranny, what does Miller discuss?
Actually, Ron Rainey was another friend of mine because I worked at Eaton County. Ron Rainey was Oh, that's okay. Ron was a corrections officer.
Okay.
The person that right, the inmate you're referring to is mister boilerd That's right, that's right. And the way that the jail was set up in maximum security, they would roll out at TV and it was all bars back then in the late seventies. It was just a horrific place. But they would roll out the TV and set it between the cells so that inmates could watch the news.
And Boilard had watched the story about Miller about his arrest, and about that same time they were bringing Miller in and so they struck up a conversation and Miller made the statement to him that he should have done away with the kids like he did his girlfriend, and Boilard remembered that he was a key witness in the case, and.
Like other people, that he was not offered any concession anything for his testimony. Was he wasn't he No?
As a matter of fact. Maybe this is where he got a little confused with Ron Rainey because I mentioned him in the book. He went specifically to Ron Rainey because Ron Rainey had a rapport with a lot of the inmates, and Boiler felt he could trust him. And Rainy then took it up the chain of command, if you will, and ran Kelly came in and interviewed mister Boiler.
Another interesting development is that you have the head of the Sex Motivated Crimes Unit, Lieutenant Darryl Pope. He had studied these kinds of murderers in his mind for eleven years and he'd profiled thirty two men for murder for sexual gratification. So tell us what Darryl Pope thought about Donald Miller.
Well, Detective Pope was sort of behavioral science specialist for MSP. He had studied murders involving sexual gratification and he felt that because of the way that the Chiquette homicide scene had looked and the way that the other women had come up missing, that they were all related, and that the stabbing of Maria Chiquette was significant in that it represented male penis, and that the blood that would would be coming from Marita's body would be significant in the investigation.
It's a very complex procedure that he went through trying to explain and tie all of these together, including the assault on Lisa Gilbert and her brother Randy. He was able to tie all those together, at least his opinion, and use that in uh obtaining a search warrant for the for the Miller home.
Mm hmm. What interesting items did they find at the Miller home.
At the Miller home they found a painting and there's an old newspaper article that shows it. It shows a pair of hands in a prayer. I believe they're in a praying fashion. It's just a very dark, dark painting. There was some news articles about the missing women.
Uh.
There was news articles about I think some missing boy scouts if I'm not mistaken, and just some very odd things, all of which wanted to pourting the investigation into these missing women. I think the painting was the big thing.
Yeah, Angel and chains yeah, and also the Bible, handcuffs and the box with nylons.
Even the handcuffs. I have to tell you about the handcuffs, and I apologize for that. The handcuffs were the handcuffs that he carried that were issued to him as a security guard, and police were finally able to determine when they discovered the handcuffs at his parents' house in his room that they were double locked. With that being said that means they can't be undone unless you have the key.
The theory is was handcuffed and he had either lost the key or didn't have it with him, and so he took his knife after he had stabbed her I think nineteen times and cut her hands off so that he could take the handcuffs with them, because he knew that police would be able to track the serial number on those handcuffs and determine that they were issued to him.
Also at the house. Though, there were some interesting things to support Lieutenant Pope's assertions. There was magazines referencing Satan about a paper written about rape and voodoo, a shovel with some hair on it, clippings again about clippings about murders and missing very interesting evidence to say the least.
Right, and I have to tell you that I was not able to look at the transcripts from the grand jury investigation. I have to wonder if some of that evidence wasn't introduced at those grand jury hearings, and so that they may have been. They were all very significant in the investigation. The knotted nylons that you mentioned, the articles all leading, all leading to exactly what detected Pope had described in the search for.
Right now, let's talk about because there is a lot to talk about when once he is arrested and charged, because there's a couple separate trials, there's preliminaries that are to me very much Some preliminaries in murder cases don't
have the kind of testimony that this preliminary did. It preliminary seemed very much like, very much like a trial, whereas some preliminaries are just a what we can say a preliminary in terms of not much as introduced at the preliminary as sort of a strategy or out of necessity. In this case, the preliminaries were very very important and almost short trials themselves before the actual trial and.
Go ahead, Sorry, well, I was just going to say. A preliminary examination is typically it's a hearing where all that has to be shown is that a crime was committed and that there's reasonable cause to believe that the defendant committed it. And typically what will happen is the prosecuting attorney will call basically the one or two, maybe three witnesses to show, hey, the crime has been committed and we think that this person did it because of this,
that and the other thing. They don't have to present any evidence or anything like that. The defense, on the other hand, a lot of will use a preliminary examination as a fact finding effort, if you will, just kind of see what the prosecution's got, and then they can use that testimony to impeach witnesses down down the road.
But in this particular case, with the miller being charged in the rape of the Gilbert girl and trying to kill her and her brother, they brought in Lisa and Randy and her dad, and basically that's all they needed at that point. In the trial, they brought in the you know, all the evidence, the detectives, and in the trial, the defense brought in all their psychological experts, psychiatrists, to
claim that Miller was insane. Once once the it became known that Miller's fingerprint was found inside the Gilbert home, Right, Benston knew the only defense he would have would be an insanity defense. And again, understand, I was just going to add that again, understand that at this point, Marcasue Young, Wendy Bush, and Christine Stewart are all still missing.
Right, And you also cite that. I believe Peter Hawke comments that, you know, prosecution conviction without a body is so rare that he writes, there's only been four in the world that have been successful.
Correct, It's incredible. It's that time. Yeah, at that time, that was exactly right. And once they they had a grand jury look into this after actually this was at the time or just before Miller's trial for the rape, they in paneled a grand jury, and the grand jury indicted Miller in the deaths of Marcus Stewart. I'm sorry,
Mark so Young and Christine Stewart. Yeah, And Peter Hout told me when I interviewed him, he said, we were certain that we could get a conviction without the bodies, but we knew that it would be overturned in the court of appeals, and so after after Miller's conviction in the rape and after he went to prison, that's when, as his trial was approaching for two counts of second degree murder, they knew they couldn't show first degree murder,
but for those two women. As that approach, that's when the idea of the plea deal came up to try to find the bodies for the families.
Mm hmm. Now, so it's very interesting too to see two trials going on at the same time in terms of the grand juries and paneled, but two separate things going on in Don Miller's life in terms of his criminal career. We haven't talked about his demeanor through all of this, how he responded to this kind of incredible pressure.
He's very he's very quiet, he's very stoic. There was a point in This is not in the book, because I'm just going to share something with you that a lot of people don't know. I've talked to Gene Miller several times, Tom's dad, and when we were talking face to face, he said there was a point where I was talking to him at the jail. This is Jene talking to me, He says, I was talking to Don at the jail and we were coming up with, you know, this defense, and Benston was there and Don reached out
and touched my hand and said, it's okay. Then almost as if okay, Dad, I just I did it. That's the way that it was explained to me by Gene Miller's so. But Don was a very very quiet individual and there wasn't a lot of show or anything like that, not a lot of pomp and circumstance, if you will, during his trial, at least on his part.
Now we talk about this controversial deal that we mentioned it, Now, why is it controversial? And they had the they thought they had enough evidence to prosecute for Martha Sue Young and for Christine Stuart. So how do they tie the other Marita Coquette and Wendy Bush? How do they tie those together? And what is the controversial deal? And then what is so controversial about it if to other people? And because of the controversy, what does Peter how decide to do in terms of.
What happened was when this deal? Understand that Don's been convicted in the rape of the Gilbert girl and he is now in prison and in Jackson Jackson Prison in nineteen seventy nine, and his attorney is concerned because he has children of his own, and he knows that there's three missing women still and that the family wants closure, and so the suggestion is made for the regressive psychotherapy
basically hypnosis, and so Miller agrees to that. But the caveat is that the defense attorney wants a lesser charge
against Miller in the murders. So the deal is now he's facing two counts of second degree murder in the Martha Sue Young disappearance, in the Christine Stewart disappearance, nothing to do with Maria Choquette or Wendy Bush at that point, and so the deal is under centient guidelines in Michigan back then before truth and sentencing, if you were charged with the crime, you would you'd get good time knocked
off your sentence. So if you just as hypothetical, if you got ten years in prison, you might be eligible for parole in five because of good time, right and so and and if you were charged with multiple offenses, your sentence would be served all at the same time. So if Miller was convicted of the second degree murders, even though he was imprisoned for the rape of the
Gilbert girl. Then he wouldn't get any more time, he wouldn't serve any more time and would still be eligible for parole, so he couldn't say you any more time. So their concern is they want some sort of a death conviction on his record, and so they agree to charge him with two counts of involuntary manslaughter exchange for
the location of the victims. And so he agrees to that, and they they hypnotize him, and actually, I'm going to back up, I don't recall if it was hypnosis or if it was the use of sodium amatol, which the street name is truth Serum, which basically it's just like giving someone eight shots of alcohol. And they begin to talk. So he admits that he kills Marcasue Young, and he admitted that he killed Christine Stewart and agrees to take
him to the bodies. The following day, he admits to killing Maria Chilquette, and then on the last day he admitted to killing Wendy Bush and agreed to take him to her body also, so in exchange for the locations of the bodies, he gets I haven't recall off the top of my head what the sentence was for the involuntary manslaughter. But he's doing that time back in the late seventies at the same time he's doing his sentence for raping Lisa Gilbert.
Right, So he's cooperative. And it was interesting too, because I guess they've had people play with them, you know, murderers. So they gave him one week bodies, so no fooling around, We want the location of these bodies in one week.
Deals off otherwise, that's exactly right. They said, he's got to take us to the bodies, and it's got to be within a week, and otherwise the deals off and he's going to be charged or he's going to trial
and to come it's a second degree murder. And so he agreed, and they loaded him up in a patrol car on one day and they went and they recovered Marcus Sue Young's remains, and they recovered Christine Stewart's remains, and then the following day they took him out and they recovered Wendy Bush's body.
Now Peter who or how I mentioned, he is worried about this controversial deal and reaction from the public. So he writes an editorial. How does he explain this controversial fleet bargain to the public.
Well, basically, the way that I took it is he uses common sense and he tells the public, look, I based my campaign, my election campaign because a prosecuting attorney in Michigan as an elected position, I based my campaign on doing away with plea bargain. But at the time I didn't know that I was going to be faced with a series of disappearances and no bodies and four
investigations that are unparalleled in this state. He said, there was no way that Miller ever would have told where the bodies were without this deal, And the most important aspect of all was that the families of those three women that still hadn't been found needed some sort of closure.
And he was exactly right. The problem becomes if you think about Miller gets twenty to thirty years for the rape of Lisa Gilbert and the attempted murder of her and her brother, and he's doing the crime or doing time for the two involuntary manslaughter plea bargain things at the same time, and everybody thinks, Okay, that's the end of it. We won't see him again until the late nineties. Twenty years later, when guess who's going to get out of prison? Don Miller. Then it becomes an issue again.
Yeah, and what luckily happens? Will you talk about? I don't really believe in rehabilitation of these types of people at all, not whatsoever. But he goes through programs and everything. He's attending programs. He goes to a sex offender program and completes it. So you say that they have this dilemma, he's going to get out. What happens?
Well, in nineteen ninety four, Don Miller is with a garrot in his prison dorm. And a garrot is a strangulation device. It is in this particular case, it's a seventy two inch shoelace that is available in the commissary at the prison. It's tied together so that it shortened to thirty six inches with a knot, and on the end, each end of it is two wooden barrel shaped buttons. You've probably seen him on winter coats, and the corrections officer that found that when he was doing a shakedown
immediately identified it as a garat. He'd had training in identification of weapons, and so he took it to his superiors. They all agreed it was a garat. And now remember this is in nineteen ninety four, and so they take Miller's good time away and so he loses two years a good time. So in nineteen ninety eight, now that Miller has lost that good time and is approaching the point where he's going to get out of prison. Three years later, an organization is formed here in mid Michigan.
It's called the Committee for Community Awareness and Protection, and it consists of attorneys, psychiatrists, survivors, corrections officers, and it was a committee basically to try to find a way to keep Don Miller in prison, this man who had murdered four women and attacked a fourteen year old girl. And Peter Hauk was part of that, and he said, you know, the best way to find out about a person's prison record is to look at their prison file, and so they did and they discovered this garat case
that had occurred three years earlier. And the thing about it was that Miller was charged administratively through the prison, but he wasn't charged criminally with possessing a weapon inside
the prison, which he could have been. And so the Eaton County prosecuting attorney who had a vested interest in Don Miller's release because that's where the Gilbert children lived in Eaton County, And so Don Miller was actually in prison up in Michigan's Upper Peninsula at a place called kin Ross, and Jeff Sawder, who was the Eaton County prosecutor in the late nineties, went to Chipwall County and convinced the Chipwah County prosecutor to file criminal charges against
Miller for possess that garat, and he did, and so that case went to trial, and Tom Benston still represented Don Miller at that time, and the case went to trial, and the jury was not allowed to know what Don Miller was in prison for. They were not allowed to know that he had killed four women and had attacked a fourteen year old girl and tried to kill her and her brother. So they just knew he was in prison and that he was charged with the possessing this device,
possessing that garat criminally. And when the jury found out that he was in prison after their verdict, when they found out that he was in prison for strangling four women, they were astounded that they hadn't been allowed to know they were. They said, we could have released him, you know, by finding it not guilty. We would have never known that he killed four women, and he'd be out on
the streets. Well because of that conviction, he had also been charged as a habitual offender under Michigan law, and if there's a conviction for that, that allows the judge to go outside the sentencing guidelines. And so with that being said, the judge gave Don Miller another forty to sixty years in prison.
Nice.
So it's important to understand to your listeners. I know this is a very confusing case. But the fact of the matter is is that in twenty thirty one, the only reason that Don Miller is still in prison is because he possessed that strangulation device. He's already done his time for the two manslaughters and for the rape that was done in the late nineties. He had served his time.
So the only reason he is still in prison is for possessing that garat and when he has served his time in twenty thirty one, Don Millen will be released back to an unsuspecting public.
Yeah, it's interesting too, because there's so many things that it's like Canadian law. And then the concurrent sentencing, meaning it doesn't matter, it doesn't count. Then you have a plea deal because you have to, and then you have good time. So there is no truth in sentencing. Maybe they have not now, but there's certainly that is not truth in sentencing when people think, well, how's he going to get out thirty to fifty years, He'll be in
there forever And meanwhile, that's not truth in sentencing. So also you write about a senate serial killer Bill six' four, nine what's what's happening with? That tell us about the genesis of that.
Bill well back in when When Sue young was part Of she's Passed away by the, way and she was part OF, seacap The committee For Community awareness And, protection and one of the avenues they tried to take was to introduce legislation Under michigan law to keep dangerous offenders off the streets by having them evaluated by psychiatrists once their sentence was, done and if the psychiatrists deemed them still a, danger then there would be sort of a
trial and a determined determination made at that point whether or not to keep them, institutionalized not necessarily at the, prison but institutionalized and try to get them. Rehabilitated that, way it, PASSED i, believe IF i recall, correctly it passed The, house but did not pass The, senate and that was the end of that. Bill there were a couple of states here in The United states had similar bills that they had only passed by narrow, margins and
it's never been reintroduced or brought up. Again so beyond what happened back, THEN i don't think it's ever been approached again here In.
Michigan it's incredible the effort that law enforcement and, prosecution the judicial, system witnesses that have to, endure the families have to endure these extensive investigations and then court cases and preliminaries of the ups and downs of all. That it's. Incredible the amount of effort to be able to put this pretty evidence serial killer away for a reasonable amount of.
Time it is astonishing to. Me the incredible, effort, sacrifice and extraordinary events that occur that enable even the conviction in this. Case it is, extraordinary, really.
It, is if you stop and think about, it in certain, States miller could have been put to. Death capital punishment is still still a viable option in certain states here in The United. States so in those situations he could have been he could have been, executing but instead he got you, KNOW i, HATE i hate to use this, term but he got the deal of the. Century he got a killer, deal pardon the. Pun, Yeah and had it not been for The garat, case he'd have been
out twenty years ago walking the. STREETS i tell the, READER i tell the reader at the beginning of the book and the, preface there's a couple of. Questions you, know Should Don miller be? Released is he still a? Danger was the case against? Him regarding The garat entrived? Case the reader has to make that. DECISION i don't make any judgments About Don. NOR i let the story speak for itself and the reader can make those.
DECISIONS i see what you're, doing. Too you're rather showing than. Telling but it really is pretty evident that this guy deserves to be locked, up and everybody that came in contact him with him knows that there's no when the doctors testified that he didn't know right from, wrong that he came up with an, idea that he bunked his head that day and couldn't, remember you, know the amnesia. Story so nothing he said was any kind of rationalization at all. Whatsoever he was not, insane he was not
suffering from. Anything he's just no, psycho got the.
Killer, yeah he actually admitted in his prison counseling sessions that that the story about the demons and his memory loss and that was all made.
Up it made it sounded all made. Up it sounded completely contrived and ridiculous and. Juvenile And i've heard these kinds of wild stories before that not even for a second could you consider. Them it is.
Ridiculous so, oh, exactly, Exactly, Yeah.
Yeah he's definitely in where he deserves to. Be, now when is this parole? Date the? Men when do you believe he will he will be? Released he?
Will, well he has a parole date next. Year, again AND i just talked to his dad a couple of days, ago and he said That don has not received any sort of a notice that he has a parole hearing next. Year, HOWEVER i think The Michigan department Of corrections indicates that
his parole hearing is next. Year beyond, that if he doesn't get out next, year he is scheduled to be released in twenty thirty, one he'll be in his mid seventies at that, POINT i have to tell you that he's obviously shown his propensity toward young, girls and seventy five is not that, old so there's a concern. There as a side, note and you'll read this in the, PostScript i got a letter From Don miller and he admitted he admitted killing four. Women.
Yeah, incredible incredible. CASE i have to, Say, rod thank you so much for coming on and talking about this new, Book Killing, women the true story of serial Killer Don miller's Certain reign Of. Terror it's been absolutely. Fascinating this is a wild blue press. Release can you tell us how people might find out about this book and your other? Work do you have a? Website tell us about?
That? They COULD i Do rodsadler dot COM R O D S A D L E r dot. COM i will tell you my first two books that we discussed on previous shows are on. There this. BOOK i have
to tell you this book was important to. ME i think there were there are generations of people that don't know Who Don miller is and what he, did AND i found that to be quite, true and that was the importance for me to write, it and SO i went ahead AND i got a literary agent who hooked me up with a publisher publishing company As Wild Blue. Press you can go directly to their website and order.
It it's also available On amazon dot. Com it's it's available in three different, formats, paperback, kindle and much to my, delight an audio version be released In.
December oh that's fantastic, news absolutely. Great, well thank you so, much and that's great news that it's released in audiobook form as well At Wilboo. Press congratulations on this, Book Killing. Women thank you so much for this. Interview Rod. Sadler you have a great.
Evening thank, You, Dan you take, care good, night good, night