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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker DTK. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Good Evening. She was hired to nurse them back to health. Instead, she took their lives for months to Davida Dealysis Center in Lufkin, Texas, had been baffled by the rising number of deaths and injuries occurring in their clinic. In April alone, they'd rushed thirty four patients to the hospital, but no one expected such a horrific cause to be behind it all. Kimberly Clark's Signs was a well liked licensed vocational nurse
at the center. The East Texas nurse was a mother of two and known for her smiles and the story she told to help patients past the time. But in April twenty eight, two thousand and eight, witnesses came forward to say that instead of life saving medication, they'd seen Signs adding toxic bleach to IV ports. Turns out it wasn't the first time. Once caught the shocking story of Signs,
murderous practices began to unravel. The book that we're featuring this evening is Killer Nurse with my special guest, journalist and author John Fox. John. Welcome to the program and thank you for the agreement interview John Fox John.
Thanks for having me, Dan, I appreciate you asking me.
Thank you very much. Incredible story, a real wild ride. Congratulations on the book. Now you are a former I found it very interesting you're a former Vietnam VET airborne ranger and retired teacher. But I think the most interesting aspect, maybe you can tell us you're a former detective. Tell us what type of detective you were, and tell us just a little bit about the about your past would probably very important to this story.
Yeah, I was. I was in law enforcement for ten years. I was a patrolman for a while. The last four years I was a homicide detective, and I actually investigated over three hundred homicides. Wow.
Yeah, that's quite the career in four years. That's pretty condensed.
I never knew what I wanted to do when I grew up, so I just kept doing other things.
That's great. Great way to approach things now, without giving anything away, without why did you choose this particular case, this particular story to write killer nurse tell us why?
Okay, as you know, I write, I write, I write fiction to you, I write crime fiction. And actually a lot of my fiction has done really well. I have three best sellers. But when this came along, there was a case from a couple of years before this one. It was a cold case murder trial, and I set to the court proceedings and everything thinking about writing a
true crime moment. I did all the paperwork and everything all the trial, but in the end, I just didn't think the case was I guess I I don't wanna say glorious enough, but I just didn't think anybody would really wanna read about it, right. And the place where I live here is is real small, and opportunity don't come around very often. And when this hit the news, I recognized right off, cause I had been a homicide detective. I recognized how unique this it. This was, This is
the most and I say this, but it's true. It's the most unique crime in history. Nobody's there been accused, charged and convicted and murdering people using bleach. And I set back, and I looked at the news and everything, and and I got some of the information, but it was very sketchy at the time when it first broke. Now looked and I said, you know, this is not something I would wanna investigate. I recognized right off how
tough this was going to be. But if they were able to and I knew this first broke as aggravated assaults, not murders, it didn't turn to murders later on, as far as the public knew. I have friends on the left and police uparments, though, and I knew this was going to turn into a murder investigation.
I see, I see.
And I knew right then that this was something that I had to write just because of the uniqueness of it. But it's right here in my backyard right exactly. Of course, I didn't know anything about writing true crime either, but I didn't stop me.
Well, you have the discipline of being a writer anyway, and a successful writer, and so you already had that. So that's a little bit more than some people have. So you're certainly not a novice. Now let's get to this story here before we talk about Luffkin, and you can describe this sort of somewhat small town place and the corporation of the Vita corporation and this dallasis Center and what goes on at this dialysis center. Before we get to that, let's go back and talk about Kimberly
Clark Science. Who she was born as, and in what circumstances she grew up. What was the background, as much as could possibly have been found, Paint a portrait of the early early life, on the conditions under which Kimberly Clark grew up, so we can see if there is any semblance of sense of this story and the inevitable outcome. But tell us a little bit about the very beginnings of Kimberly Clark Science.
Okay. First to do that, I need to tell you where she's from, because that really has a a lot of bearing on what we know about Kimberly Clark Signs. She was born and raised in an unincorporated community called uh Pollock outside of Lufkin. Real small place, a really close place, and not only a closed place, but she comes from a family who has really closed up. What do you bear? I mean, nobody knows a lot about them.
They keep to themselves. Their life really reviolves around a church there in Pollock and the church people and everything. They're kind of closed up and nobody to be honest with you. Before she was for this broken the news. Very few people knew who Kimery Clark science was matter of fact, very few people still no. They know the name, but very few people know who she is except for family, and a lot of them don't talk, will not talk.
So it was.
Really it was really difficult finding a lot of information on it. I'm going, I'm getting into it. She Uh, she was raised there. She went to school in Pollack, a school district called Central. She had she had her older brother who was three years older than her. Her mother works for Walmart and her father works for a trucking company. And uh, they're not they're not poor. They I would call them probably middle class or lower middle class. They live in they live on land that their parents
had and they just kept just handed down. And she went to school to the to the eleventh grade in Central, which is in Pollock. Then she got pregnant and quit school and had a baby and got married and uh, she was married I think three years, got a divorce and went to work for a uh trucking company in Lufkin. And so far after that point in her life, you can't find anything bad, not a single thing except getting pregnant and dropping out of high school, which in this
day and time is not considered bad. Uh. She met a guy by the name of the Kevin Sins at the trucking company, and she got pregnant again and they got married. And from that point on, and I think I am said something about it in the book, it was almost like her life was in a vortex. Somebody was flushing the toilet and down it went, and she was in an accident. Uh. I guess about three or
four years before all this really started. And it was a serious accident, and she became addicted to pain medication.
What kind of accent the car accident?
Yes?
And how serious was How serious was the accident?
It was pretty serious. But she wasn't debilitated anything. But she ended up she was okay physically okay, except for the pain medication.
Okay.
That is probably where her biggest downfalls start.
Okay. H What I was gonna ask is because the church is very important in the support of the church, and and really, if you really get a window of the friends that they have made in this pollock, is these people from this church? Now, what kind of church is this is evangelical product? What type of religion is practiced there? What? What is the church there? What is it?
I am not sure. I think it's one of the South branch of the Pentecostal.
Okay, would you consider that these very fervent church as opposed to may say more very yes and okay? So a deeply religious family, notwithstanding, would say religious yes, okay and conservative okay.
Yes.
Now tell us before we well continue with Kimberly, you say that she becomes addicted to painkillers. Tell us now about this the Vita dialysis center. And the Vita is a corporation, so tell us a little bit about that corporation. We're talking about a small business or a big business, because that plays a vase a little bit too.
Yeah, the Vida is a fourteen five hundred company. They have something like thirteen hundred dialysis centers across the country, and they're humongous and they have a huge revenue.
Now at what age, obviously, Kimberly, you say, went to grade eleven, How does she become how does she come to be employed at this dialysis center? What is the sort of reading process for letting people in? And before we go any further because we're kind of just jumping ahead. Was there any she had any kind of odd behavior reported then, or if somebody in retrospect or? Was there any visits with a psychologist a psychiatrist. Was there anything of note like that at all that you could find?
Yeah, there was a few things. I need to talk about. Her job here story really tell you about this. She there in luck and there's a community college called Angelina College, and they basically are a most people probably not what a community college junior college is, but they have a nursing program there and there's a two year program and she went through that program. That's how she got in.
She couldn't have got into a regular college without a high school diploma, but you cam with a junior college and she she got her LVN, which is the lowest ranking of a nursing in Texas. And her first job out of college was with Memorial Hospital here in Lufkin. And don't know what happened there. She was there for two months and she left and I have no reason, no idea why, and matter of fact, the police didn't know either, because I think there was something happened to
her record. I'm not sure but nobody knew why she left Memorial. But she went from Memorial to Woodland Heights Hospital in Lufkin. And this is where the problems really come in at she was there for about a month in half. She got fired and she was fired for stealing demrong and forgiven patients in jack pain medication who didn't need it. Yeah, that was that should have been a huge flag right there.
Well, so why so she was fired at that time?
She was fired as a matter of fact, when she hired them too di Vita. She had been fired from five places, five nursing jobs and a year and a half.
Now, why don't these You would think the healthcare industry would I would at least be able to pass that information onto another business. I mean, there would be no reason for them not to.
Would for federal law says they can't.
Oh okay, they cannot.
The only yeah, the only by federal law. The only thing they can tell another employer is if they would hire those people back or not.
And that's it was she recommended each How does she get five more jobs?
She has five no no rehires on her record when Divida hired her, And that's a huge I believe that's a huge problem. But that's not even the biggest one. That's not even the biggest one in this mess. But uh uh. Woodland Heights contacted the Texas Boarder Nursing about her being fired by her stealing the demaros, which she confessed to giving shows the patience who didn't need it.
She confessed to that's even worse.
Yeah, here's the problem with this. It doesn't go on a record until the Texas Board and Nursing investigates these charges.
And what would you tell them to do that?
Well, when I get around to it. When I eventually ended up investigating the charges against her from Woodland Hides, she had just been fired from the Veda for killing patients.
Jesus, Now with the vita, I mean with lawsuits, I mean everybody's afraid.
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A lawsuit in America, I mean, including these guys, they don't have a screening policy that can kind of put two and two together. Sure, there's no information to say they did this, they did this, but if you're gone and you only lasted a few months, either allows the employee or if they have to get an explanation from the employee why they left. Or I mean, wouldn't it be easy to put two and two together. How desperate is the Vita Well Texas.
Medical facilities in Texas are desperate nurses. They made them desperately. It's one of the huge UH positions that really is in demand. But and I have no evidence of this, mind you, none what I'm about to say, But I know she did this before. After Signs was arrested, after the j grand jury UH indicted her and she was charged,
she was let out on bail. But one of the stipulations that she of her bail is she couldnt be employed at any healthcare facility, right, and she went r She went and got a job at a health care for children home. And this is how she did it. She put on her application, isn't she was a nurse, but she's been working for a roofing company. And she gave on a phone number to check her reference to. As it happens, a phone number was her husband's cell
phone number. So I don't know what she did with d vida, but she did do that.
Now, let's let's go backwards a little bit, because we haven't even talked about the crimes itself. We haven't. She hasn't, like I said, We've just talked about her getting hired. Now at the Woodland Hospital and the other health facility that she worked at in her position as the l VN, that's her nurse status. What what did her duties until.
At the VIDA, she was mostly a care tech care technicians, care person. They took care of patients. They they gave up, they checked their vitals, they hooked them up to the dialaceis UH they kept checking them and all this throughout the dialasi's process. UH. The VITA had a had three tiers of employees who took care patients. The rians, which are registered nurses and they're higher than LVNs. They usually were the med nurses or the supervisors over this, then
had the LVNs. Then they had p PCT's patient care technicians. And the patient care technicians were not nurses, but they could do everything the LVNs could do, accept gift shots and for the most part as a patient care catonician, she just take care of patience. Now there's times, of course, people's don't leaves say things like that she was the mad nurse. That meant she gave the mads. That's all she did and that's all she wanted today because she
did not want to take care of patience. She hated it.
Oh really okay, yeah.
She hated taking care of patients.
Now we've also kind of jumped over this a little bit. What is the sort of general number one, let's give it for the audience that's kind of pining for. What does this person look like? You can just in a second describe, you know, or Hiji five foot four, about one hundred and seventy you said, But tell us a little bit about her appearance and how she comes across. But tell us to the extent, what would people characterize her most by? What did she turn into? What kind
of person? Overall? Sort of disposition? What kind of person was she likable? What did she look like first? And was she what was her disposition at.
The time of trial? She was short and really heavy, she bad actne I wasn't I wouldn't say that she was attractive. Uh, I wouldn't say she's attractive now. Uh. During the trial and laden up to the trial, and during the trial, she was really happy and I think I even described as an And it wasn't just me because other people saw this too, but she really really
enjoyed the attention. She just seemed to relish the attention, even the pre trial meetings and things like that, when they went in before the judge and everything to get things hashed out. She just seemed to have a good time.
She was the center of attention.
Yeah, she was. She was enjoying herself. She really was. Uh. I spoke to every one of the jurors. As a matter of fact, I sat down with all twelve jurors at one time and we talked for about eight hours over wine and pizza about everything involved with the trial. And one of the things the prosecutor worried about going in was, nobody knows what a serial killer looks like. But if you was gonna take a picture and say this is a serial killer, you wouldn't take her picture.
Right.
You know, she's a mother too, she's married. She doesn't look like a serial killer. Of course, nobody knows what one looks like. But during the trial, and the prosecutor worried about that. But during the trial afterwards, the jurors told me they didn't know what a serial killer looked like, but watching her, they knew what one acted like.
M Yeah, the psychopathic tendencies, yes, definitely.
She Uh. During the trial, she would taunt the families of the victims. Yeah, she would turn and smile at 'em, just mm and yuh. They were about the bust that guy. I really were.
Now let's just go back, because we've got to make sure that people understand the gravity of this crime and how she was able to do this at all. And before reading your book, I had no idea really the importance and significance of Bleach in her work and in the hospital in general. And I had no idea what they actually would use, why she would have access to it. So I thought it odd. So tell us a little bit more. And I don't really know the dialysis process.
I may have an inclination, but tell us about the dialysis center in terms of what exactly patients were in
there for. And before we start too, one thing you mentioned too that this is a very very unique crime in that there have been people in the hospital setting that have killed patients, but for the vast majority, they've been people that were going to die anyway, and they were like an avenging angel or putting people out of their misery just a little bit before, completely completely different
than this this person. So tell us first what the significance is of Bleach and why she had access to it Before we get into the actual crime.
Right, A bleach is predominant in all dialysis center, not just a vita. They use it. They they use it to clean blood, wipe the seats, but they also use it to wash out the machines, rents out the machines because blood goes into there, so it's prevalent in there. When you walk into the center, you can get you can get a little tinge of it, the smell of bleach, because that's how prevalent it is in there.
Uh.
But they use it to clean the tables, they use it to clean the chairs. They have a they use bleach solution. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pure bleach. They're supposed to pour the bleach into a container there and mix it with water and just wipe the seats off and things like that and dilysis. And when I started this process, I didn't know anything about dollasis either, and I had to go through three years of education
on dialasis and everything, just learn it. But the blood the kidneys are very important for a lot of reasons. But one of the main reasons is that filters everything out of the filters, impurities out of blood and everything. And when people have kidney disease and their kidney stop functioning, they have to have dilysis, which means usually they go in for three or four hours a day, three days a week, and all their blood is taken out of their body through a filtering system machine and then it's
it's put back in. Now it's not all taken out at wants Mine. There's each patient has a different flow, right that it goes out and it goes back in. But it basically clanes are kidding the blood and blood and without it, the patients die, right and if the kidneys do a lot of different things. But I can't go into everything right now now.
One of the it becomes important a little bit later and we'll we'll get back to this. But was there any reason to use the bleach, to have the bleach in and other than what you just said, the instructions were to dilute it, to use it to as a solution to clean. It's involved in the dialysis machine, dialysis machine itself, and I think the instrument cleaning as well,
if I'm not correct. And but the thing is, was there any reason, because this becomes important later, was there any reason for say Kimberly Clark or any other LVN or anyone to be measuring out the bleach for any reason in any form, but measuring actually, well I need this much for this. Was there any real reason to be measuring bleeding?
No, there wasn't. What happens is the pacts come in in the morning and h dollarsis station has two little small pails, and in the morning the pact is measured it out and it's so much per h pail has a different measurement. So one has ten millimeters a blaze to one hundred millimeters and the other one has one hundred millimeters to a thousand and one of them, one of the little pails, I use it just to wipe
the seats off after the patients get out patients. And the other one that he is that if blood is spelt, the wife of the blood but actually then have to dialish the station. There's no need for anybody to be mixing bleachs there. It's all done beforehand, and they have enough that they don't run out. Okay, and that was.
Important, Okay, So and so set the scene for this very dastardly few weeks, and that she carried out this evil plot. Tell us if there was anything that in retrospect that she had been going through that would like equivalent of as a homicide detective, you know, something that would be considered a trigger, any I guess outside circumstance or something that would affect her. Possibly we'll say that something nothing can account for this, but anything that might
have contributed to it. Let's put it that way, and then tell us about what starts to happen and that few weeks of how on earth she had access to these patients and this death toll and injury tool was racking up. Talk talk to us about our audience about that.
Yeah, she she had spent some time, a little bit of time in a mental institution for severe depression. As a matter of fact, she beat her husband up twice. He took out two restraints in orders against her. Uh. She was just really, really miserable. But I would like to say all this started at the VIDA, but I really don't think it did. I think this is just
a culmination. I think this started at Woodland Heights was because she was given shots to patiency from medicine who didn't need it, right, And I think it is just kind of built up.
That's wouldn't have been for a completely different reason though. I mean, you know, the only other the thing that it might be important that she wanted to get attention, But the other one was sort of, I want to give you a shot of medicine for a feel good effect. She was she was doctor field good, wasn't She administered that people really needed.
Maybe, But that's the first time I know that she stepped out of bounds as a nurse, right, That's what I mean. And later you you know, she really steps out of bounds. I mean, when you start killing patience, you can't get any flood out of bounds and that.
But you said she didn't want to be the care she didn't want to be the lowly care worker. But what was her relationships? Okay, but what was her relationship with the patients? Some people depicted her as a friendly, likable person, but what was her relationship with the actual patients.
Most of the patients she got along real well with, real well. With the employee. She did.
She didn't, she knows she did not.
She was constantly complaining.
Uh.
Matter of fact, several of them thought she was just gonna quit. She didn't like the job. She was constantly complaining she wanted to be. She just want to be a mad nurse. And I think that had a lot to do with her addiction of pain matication.
Just wanted to have access to drugs herself. That, right, that would be the only way to be That'd be the only way to really skim some meds for herself.
Right now, this everything you know. Two witnesses saw her do this, sew her inject patience with bleached on April twenty eighth, right, But that's not really where this story starts. This story starts on April the first, it is. And to explain this, I need to tell the audience that the odds of someone dining while on a dialysis machine is one in seven hundred thousands. It doesn't happen very often. They're in a medical facility. They have nurses there, they
have doctors there. They constantly monitor the vitals, they monitor their they checked their vitals before they even start dollasis. They're checked several times during, during, and even and they check it afterwards. Dillas's patients die that because they're old and they're sick for the most part, some of them, but they usually don't do it while they undergo into dialasis process. And like I said this, the odds are
dying on the machine is one in somewhere thousands. On April the first, two thousand and eight, two patients died on the machine and Dialasis and Davida Lufkin five minutes apart. And you can't even calculate those odds.
So what what was the the hospitals and their staff's response to this unlikely event? What was the was there an investigation? What was their conclusion? What did they do?
They new something was wrong, but they didn't know what. So they sent in a team of basically what they call monitors, but they were the investigators. They were led by an rim who was the regional director to come in and they were gonna look at everything involved in the diocist process there. And they were there at the facility on April second, two thousand and eight. That morning, April second, they were there and that date is probably the biggest Kimberly sign did something on that morning. It
was probably the biggest thing that got her convicted. But I'll I'll go back to that if we have time.
But okay, we'll leave. We'll leave that okay, mkay.
They start. They started looking at everything and they couldn't find anything. They knew something was wrong that they couldn't find it. They looked at everything, the water, the procedures, everything except employees, and nobody believed that employee would be doing this. As a matter of fact, several patients, uh three patients ended up dying in between that day and April twenty eighth. There was gonna be four others that
was gonna suffer serious injuries and stuff. But on April twenty second, April, not April twenty second, April twenty eighth. The morning April twenty eighth, Kimberly Signs was supposed to be the med nurse that morning and one of the one of the Oriente well, one of the texts called
in sick and they had to call somebody in. But the only thing they could find was an r N. So they brought an r N in and the r N became a med nurse because that's what ri n do, And they shifted Kimberly's Signs to patient care and she fit. They she went out started smoking. They literally had to go out and talk her and coming back to work in some ways that may have been a huge mistake. But she came back into work and a little later on two patients and let me let me explain this one.
Let me explain this how Davida operated. Davida operated in teams. UH one PCT or one l d N took care of four patients and they worked in teams, and when one went on break, the other one watched the other's patients for him. Okay, And that morning, UH Kimberly Simes was working with a PCT by the name of Andrew rod Reggaez, which is not important, But Angie went on break and when she did, two of kimberly Signs patients saw her go over to angieh rod Regguez's patients and
inject him with bleach. And it literally scared the two patients to death. Literally, they didn't know what to do. They had just seen her do it. They knew she did it, and this was their nurse. This wasn't the other people's nurse. This was their nurse. So what they did what they Finally, I'm sorry.
No, I was gonna ask what did they do?
They called some and told them what they saw, and they really didn't believe her. But they went to the person who came in to investigate everything, and they told her what they saw. But not only did they tell her what they saw, they told her things like what Kimberly Science had done with the syringes when she got through with them, she'd dropped them in two different sharp containers right there by the station, and they told them
exactly what sharp containers she'd drop them in. So Amy Clinton, who was the one conducting all this going on, she had two really really scared patients and they had to finish the dialasis with them. You know, once it starts, you can't. So she figured the best thing to day to diffuse everything for the moment was tell Kimberly Science to go home. And Sion didn't like it, but she wouldn't have went home, and they were able to go ahead and get the patients, get them, get the dollars
as complete. And the two patients that they saw, her and Jack had adverse conditions and they had to take care of them. Yeah, and they had to take care of them. Fortunately.
How bad was there how bad was their injuries? And what did they do? Like, was there anything they could do to if they thought it was bleached? Was what was the reaction in terms of medicallymatically.
They didn't know what to do. They and at that point they still wasn't really sure if they wanted to believe the patients.
I see, you know what.
I'm saying, because this just sounded so far fetched. It's never happened ever, and it just sounded so far fetched. And after a time, the two patients that was supposedly injected got better. And you know, she killed five patients, Well I think you killed nineteen, but you know, she was charged for killing five, But there were five others who were injected that didn't buy and probably several others
that that they just don't know about. But it all depends on how much bleachs they got and also what condition they're in what and did That's a guess work too, because nobody really knows that because nobody had ever studied the affects of bleach.
Really, what was the reaction by the hospital itself, and how did they conduct to any kind of investigation at all? What did they do?
Well, the first thing they did they sent her home and they called the director of the facility there, and they opened up the two sharps containers and you know they have these little measuring sticks. I guess like you you measure. Uh. They checked the spa and stuff, and they took they open these sharps containers up and they start they looked at the syringes that were on top, and they checked him for bleach, and they found some
that tested positive for bleach. Yes, And at that point they were just at a loss and they probably I don't really know what went on there. I'm sure the vida's the vision. Uh Fortune five hundred company. I guarantee you. I don't know what, but I guarantee you. I got their attorneys, you know, when they got the hires up, and they started trying to say what they were going to do about this, and eventually they got around to call on the police. They there was about a four
hour delay that before they call the police. Okay, and and so now here.
So they so they believe that the bleach has have been confirmed. The story seems plausible. They have these you know that they've had some fatalities and these people were injured. They are a Fortune five hundred company. They would like to diminish how many deaths or injuries can be attributed to their nurse. But still they have to contact the police. They know that, how did police, how did police proceed and how long is it before they arrest Kimberly Clark.
Uh the police got out there, I think it was about four or five in the afternoon, and the one they gave this te uh mind you when when the police got it, all they knew was a p thus, possible tamper on Madison or something. They had no idea what was going on, and they sent out the detective sergeant over uh uh, I'm not gonna say homicide over the detectives because Lufkin doesn't have specialized detectives right all
the detective to everything. But they sent the detective sergeant out and he was and he didn't wanna go by himself, so he started going around looking for somebody to take with him, and he really couldn't find anybody, and finally found the corporal of the detectives who had just got back from swat training and and he was even still in his swat gear. So if they drive out to de Vita, they don't have a clothe what's going on. And they start hearing this what hearing this story, and
they didn't believe the witnesses either really didn't. Matter of fact, very few people are gonna believe these witnesses at first.
Why do you think that was what was the reason for the police not believing these people?
The police, the police sell them, believe witnesses sell them. Uh, you know, you can have a white man in the middle of Times Square shooting people, and you have a hundred witnesses, and you're gonna have ninety different descriptions, you know, you know, ninety different people may tell you a different race. So you as a policeman and you learn to be really leary about what witnesses tell you. And besides that, it was just far fetched and just say'm really far fetched.
What wasn't there the confirmation from the hospital already or did they did not divulge that information that the syringes tested for bleach, which again, as I we've established, there'd be no reason for a bleach to be in any syringe, would there.
Be none, none, whatsoever? But that really that was a couple of de Vita employees who tested the surrenders. That wasn't a lab right, And you can't as an investigator, you can't just say the employee is a right.
Okay, within, but they couldn't do any independent testing because that was not probably too late to do.
Yeah, not right then they could do it, but I guess then it laughs, But they couldn't do it right then. This is going to take time. No, initial initially they just didn't believe it.
But good, Now do they have the wherewithal or the initiative to go and interview Kimberly clerk sayings and talk to her? And under if they do, what's the conditions that in which she does speak to them? Does she get an attorney? How does she tell us about this?
Initially she did not get an attorney. This happened on the twenty eighth. They can't The police actually came out to Devita probably around four or five on the twenty eighth, and they didn't get food there with all the crime scene stuff and everything and interviewing people at Davida until about ten or eleven. At nine and the next morning, both detectives Corporal Shirley and Sergeant Abbot went out to uh Signs home and got her and brought her in just to talk to her, and she they asked her,
do you wanna drive your car? Do you wanna go with us, and she told him she would go with us, but just give her a second to make a couple of calls. And they went out and waited far and Sergeant Abbott later told me that that was one of the worst decisions he made because she was in there too long. But she came out, got in the car,
and they took us to the Lefting Police department. They started talking to her, and they probably talked to her about twenty five minutes then, and they showed the tape in court and you could just see it all of us. It just all of a sudden, she became drunk. She couldn't speak coherently, she couldn't think. She just she was drunk. It was just they're sitting there and it was just
like they just pick up a drunk person. And the only thing they could sigured that when they went out to waiting the car, she took something and it took time to kick in sure, and they eventually after about ten minutes of this, and her cell phone would ring, and she didn't even know how to answer their cell phone. She was just sitting there and finally they had to say we got in the interview, and that was the last chance they got to talk to her because she
did a lower up then. But they got some good stuff in that first twenty five minutes.
Though, Yeah, it's interesting how they utilize that. So, yeah, and pretty well there are no other well, obviously there's no other suspects because it again a little bit of her defense is that maybe the VITA is framing her. But of course nobody could ever find any evidence of anything like that in terms of you know, yeah, there's
a bunch of deaths at this at this hospital. But then what's the most I don't know, horrifying is that without those two again witnesses that no one believes you wouldn't have this crimes free ending anytime soon, would you? When when.
Yeah, that's if I hadn't saw it, If I hadn't saw it that morning, there's no telling how long this would have went on. And the problem was and one of the huge problems and how she got a white way for so long as she was doing this during the breaks, the bunches and the breaks and things like that, when she was there with the other people's patients.
But but you see the incredible odds one in seven hundred thousand that somebody can die from the process. And you have two people, and then you have three people, you have five people. How does how do fellow employees explain that? I mean again, I did not that.
Yeah, they were, they were at a loss. They really were. Uh, they didn't know what was going on. They they really didn't. I was gonna tell you, and I know you're running out of time here, and I was going to tell you about this April second deal. Okay, Uh, the April first or two patients died and they brought an investigators were there in the morning in April second, but at fourth third in the morning, right before she went to work. Kimberly signs on April second, got on her computer and
ran a search. Can bleach be detected in Dallas's lines?
Interesting?
And on April second, nobody knew anything about bleach, nothing, And she knew these investigators were coming, and she was checking on lines to see if they could actually detect bleach and Dollas's lines, see how much trouble she was in?
Can they detect bleach?
Actually they could not. Up until this point they could not. Matter of fact, there was no lab in the country capable of testing that equipment and saying it was Bleach genant, not a single one. They finally the FDA who said they would try, and they were able to.
But yeah, so this case in particularly brought that change.
Yeah, the FDI was able to discover that Blake was in the Dalarsis line.
Okay, now when is it and under what circumstances is she finally and when what's the date that she's arrested and what she charged was? I found this interesting. I'm not familiar with this sort of cluster murder charge. So tell us when she was and under what circumstance she was charged for murder?
And she was first arrested on May nine, two thousand and eight, and she was arrested on charge of took charges of aggravators assault, an aggravator, assault with a deadly weapon bleach. They were charging her for those two patients that she injected with bleach on the morning twenty eight. The DA here found out that it's really really difficult, really difficult to convict medical people in court, really difficult. Matter of fact, less than fifty percent are convicted by trial. Well,
the other over fifty percent get off. Most of the people, most of the medical professionals that are convicted are done through confessions. So what they wanted to do in May night, if they wanted to charge her with these two aggravated assaults, get her in and try to get a confession, because that point they knew she committed murders, but they didn't know. At that point, they didn't know how or if they would ever convict her of them. So they were trying to get a confession.
Yeah, by this time, but this time, by this time, unless she has an idiot for an attorney, he knows or she knows that. So tell us what the response is to that. I would think that wouldn't work.
No, it didn't. She hadn't turned in. It didn't work. Uh, you know, but that's how you that's the best way to get medical professionals. You know, you can work out a day on so, hey, we'll do this if you'll just come out and confess to these and a lot of times it works, and sometimes it doesn't. In her case, it doesn't. And I spent a lot of time in the book I the trial, and I did it for a couple of reasons. One because it's so difficult to
convict medical people with a trial. And number two, nobody in this world has ever been put in trial for killing someone with bleach.
And also you've got a woman serial killer, and you've got a death penalty state that every state, whether they like the death penel.
Or not, Texas does.
It doesn't really put women to death. It's hesitant to put women to death.
Yes, Texas is one of those two. Texas will ascieve men. Don't get me wrong. They execute a bunch of men, but they don't execute a lot of women.
What I was going to ask is because we won't. I love the aspect of the trial, because, like you say, it's it's in a lot of cases. From reading the back description of the book, you already know what the conclusion was. To go through a trial is pretty tedious for a lot of people. And I I got I can understand that too, because a lot of true crime fans are very knowledgeable about the law process. They don't want to go back over it again so much. They
want a lot of movement in a trial. Trialing a lot of in a lot of people's minds really slows down a story, but not in this particular case. And you start off with it and again, we're not going to give the conclusion away because the trial is a very wild ride and very interesting characters arise. She has a really good she has a really good lawyer. Of course, when you pay a lot of money and you try to get the best, you get somebody that straddles that
line between ethics. I think I think that's safe to say as a homicide.
The line hey went well over it.
Well, that's always sun.
Yeah, it's not often that a judge cause you alar and dishonest in court.
Yeah, you know you've crossed some line anyway. Absolutely. Yeah, Now we won't give this away because you really have access because, like you say, you went to the trial and it was what I thought interesting was uh, you know, they moved the judge realized that, Okay, we have a smaller courtroom and then we have a bigger one. We're likely going to need this big one because it has international press, it has the media's interest. Uh, and everybody
wants to get into this thing. And you really painted that anticipation that might be that.
Made me mad?
Why is that?
Well, during Boar Dare and everything, I knew that I was gonna be I was gonna be pressed for time to get through get interviews and everything. So I was gonna do some pre riding and one of the things I was going to do was described the court room and all that. While well for there was going on. I was sitting there my typewriter describing the courtroom and everything, and right there at the end, the judge said, you know, I think about I'm thinking about moving the trial from
this courtroom to the other one. He said, does anybody have any problems with that? And you know, he was talking to the attorneys, but I wanted to raise my hand and say yeah, oh yeah, I didn't, but I wanted to.
Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of interesting too, because I've never really seen any photos and I've never been in any courtroom myself where you say, you describe the courtroom as kind of tattered in old seats, so you know it's and it's dunk you're saying, smell like urine.
Yeah. Then they bring those prisoners in all at one time, and they stepped there in these seats and some of them had ever had a bath, I don't think. But they bring them in for jail, Kyll. You know, they'll bring them, They'll bring faithy of them in at once and set them in there. And I think some of them pays on it and everything.
But that play, Yeah, that's that's I'm not familiar with, you know, a trial where you'll have anybody, but that defended in the actual courtroom itself. I've seen other you know, I mean, I've seen adjournments and I've seen you know, like for remand. But yeah, so that that was very different for me to see that the state and the disorder of the courtroom itself, but you really catch staying
the room only. Yeah, there was quite a bit of a stir and and and again always baffling to me how some people based on their hunches, I guess, so they're thinking she's innocent, but based on what I have no godly idea. But it was really a conversation at the uh water cooler in this little place, wasn't it, Lufkin?
Yeah, oh man, this is something you know. The funny thing is, because of the news reporting, a lot of people thought she was going to get off. I thought she was guilty, but I thought she was going to get off.
And we won't give it away. We won't give it away because the thing is is that anything, anything could happen in this because she was smart enough. It seems that as much as the twenty five minute interview was a mistake, any kind of interview without an attorney is a mistake. Yeah, but she is a pretty cunning kind of person. Again, I think it's interesting the psychopath is cunning, but then it seems that the ego, the narcissism, takes over and and they get foolish. Exactly interesting.
I think the morning of the twenty eight she was just so upset because she wasn't the mad nurse, and there were some things that happened to her private life to right before that. But I think she was just so upsetter she got careless. Yeah.
Well obviously, oh thank god you got careless. Yeah, and again a.
Witnesses said, proved to be true.
You know, what I found out is that there wasn't more disdained for the Vida Corporation itself, and that not the corporation, but that hosp that franchise in itself, that clinic.
They were wrong on some things. There were some things that they were not doing well and right, I had to say that. But getting information out of them too is pretty hard, you know, you don't you don't just go up and ask them questions because their employees wouldn't even allow their employees had attorneys.
Well, of course, it's when people are dying that's a huge thing. And when it's the responsibility of of a nurse, I mean, my god, you know it's it could be bad for business. No, it's very bad. I mean, I'm being facetious.
I'll say this for Devada that they have problems. They did, but they corrected them, and they got their bets saved off too well, and they and they paid those.
Well. The thing is is that there's a lot more book. We've we've gone through this basic story, but there's so much more to this book. And like a lot of reviewers have said of your book too, it's really because
I guess you're a fictional writer. It really helps. But also I think the main thing of this is that you've really don't get overburdened with details that don't mean as much so for season readers, they love a great story without reiterating some of the things that you know, maybe a first time true crime reader might be reading. We'll say, and so I applaud you in keeping the reader, at myself and any reader basically on the edge of his seat here. It moves very very quickly, very exciting story.
And I love when a trial is not a foregone conclusion. So and it's very very interesting trial, like you say, it's and this is a tough upheld battle. Yeah.
Okay, what one of the one of the attorneys told me after the trial, I sat down to talam but one of them, I don't really want to say which one, but he told me that in murder cases, you know, usually you have one little point that you have problems with, the others are just really open and shot. You usually have one little problem that you have problems with, and this one I had problems with everything, every point. I had to fight for them.
Before we go, I wanted to also talk about, just briefly and just just explain how this happens in Texas, is that the jury had to decide on a murder charge, but it was five murders in one. I have never heard of this sort of cluster murder charge, which seems again to have complicated the case for the jury and hence for the prosecution in the community. So tell us what Texas law is that you are able to do this, and why would you do this? And you have to do this, or what's yeah, what is this?
Under Texas law, there's two cups of murder. There's murder and then there's capital murder. And capital murder is usually best to find by murdering someone in the commission of a felony. If you go into a store to rob somebody and you shoot and kill a clerk, that's capital murder. If you kill a fireman or a policeman in a line of duty, that's capital murder. There's a few other things. If you kill a kid under ten, it's capital murder.
But if you kill a number of people over a time period using the same method, that's also capital murder. So instead of saying she killed five people, they lumped all those five together into one charge of capital murder. And basically all the jury had to do was say she's guilty of at least two of them. If she's guilty of at least two of them, the jury blaef
jury convictor of all five. But the charge sheet they said, if you killed at least two of them, then you're guilty of this capital murder, because it has to be two or more. So that's why they put them all in to get capital murder out of it, so they could get to death penalty just murder, Yeah, just murder doesn't have death penalty.
Yeah, there's just those requirements of the two murders and then you get a five was interesting to me. It was news to me. I hadn't heard of that kind of deal before, and I know that that would complicate things for the jury, so further complicating this case. And of course it also complicated it by their ploy to have her confessed did not work, and so obviously it was a setback for the prosecution. So I want to thank you very much John for coming on and talking about this.
How can you interesting?
Yeah, I was gonna say, how do people contact you?
Yeah, it's a w wdbbie dot John Fox, johnhome dot com, John Fox, johnhome dot com. And of course I'm on Facebook at John dot Fox, John Facebook dot com or whatever that is. But uh, just John Fox, John, if you if the good.
I apologize for that we've had some kind of disconnection with John. I want to thank you our audience for tuning in and listening to John Fox John speaking about his book Killer Nurse. Good Night,