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You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about them. A beautiful young American woman was kidnapped and confined against their will in the putrid depths of Tijuana, Mexico. Drugged and tortured, she lived in constant fear for her life. Kidnapped, kidnapped by the cartel opens the doors into the secret covens of a Mexican organized crime, a terrifying place where many
are lost forever. Slimy backstreets of Tijuana are graphically revealed as the disgusting, gruesome, and violent places they are known to be. The US State Department has warned against non essential travel along the United States Mexico border, especially in the violent cities of Cluad, Juarez and Tijuana. This novel gives a taste of what goes on behind the fence. Kidnap. The book we're featuring this evening is Kidnapped by the Cartel. This is a novel inspired by a true story with
my special guest author, Karen Sciosia. Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Karen Scusia, thank you so much.
It's Shosha. But it's a difficult name to pronounce.
You know what.
That's what I should have I should have done that before in the few seconds that we had before we went on the program. So say your last name again for me, please, Shosha, Shosha. Okay, that's a lot easier. Ah, that's easy. Okay, thank you.
Now.
One of the questions I used to ask a lot of the authors, and I haven't asked it in a little while because it seemed maybe a little too obvious, but I think it's appropriate here. Why did you want to write? Why were you compelled to write? And kidnapped by the cartel?
When this I call it the incident, even though that's not a strong enough word probably, but when this incident happened in our family. It was just such an amazing thing and we could hardly believe it. And I found out that it was not an isolated incident. These things were happening. So the book was written initially as a cautionary tale, but then it has developed an audience kind
of twofold. One as a cautionary tale, and then two for people who like to read about well crime, true crime, fictional crime, just crime stories like CSI shows the movie take and things like that. There's a whole audience for this type of story. And then, like I said, there's the cautionary tale for what has happened here and does happen continuously.
Actually, now, as you know, and we were in we've had conversations that this is strictly a nonfiction program where we talk about nonfiction books. But I made the exception in this case because of our friend Kathy Scott highly recommended this story, and that obviously when you say it's inspired by a true story and you talk about the incident, now tell us about some of the research that you did do in order to be able to write this
book and give it as much authenticity as possible. Other than of course, the relation in your family to the subject of the book, whose name in the book is Amanda. But tell us about the independent research you did about organized crime in Mexico that you did in order to write this book.
Okay, Well, I was involved actually in this incident personally. My family member was kidnapped in Tijuana and I live in North Carolina. So after a few days, I actually flew out to help. After five days, and this person was missing eleven so after five days I flew out to get involved in the search. So I learned firsthand
many things. But then after when I was doing research and found out that this was not an isolated incident, that these things were happening, I went to the police again in San Diego to talk more on an intelligent level and not on such a desperate level, because this situation had been was over for us, not over for other people though, And I went to detoc centers and the hospitals, and I went back into Mexico several times, talked to policia and a lot of different people, even
though you really don't know how to discern who you can trust too well. There and then the pharmacias. I went into those pharmacias and The thing about the pharmacias there is that people can go in and by practically any drug you need a prescription for without a description. So you go into the border cities particularly, and you'll find a lot of Americans and other tourists buying different things.
People will be buying, say retine for their face, which is a prescription, steroids, shots bodybuilders, oxycon for people that are invicting, for people who are hooked. So those are just a couple of examples that you see on a daily basis.
Now, this, would you be able to write a non knowing that everything you know now and being so intimately involved, would you be able to write a non fiction tell all book about the like you talk about the pharmacies where everything is available and organized crime itself, human trafficking, prostitution, illegal immigrants smuggling into the US, drug running, and every
thing that goes along with that. And many people know about the ruthlessness of Mexican gangs and their reputation and shock value of some of the things that they're willing to do to maintain their power. Would you be able to write a nonfiction book about this?
Yes? And I would have to say that in this book those areas are pretty much nonfiction in this book. What is been what has been fictionalized is I wanted to protect my family member, and coupled with what I learned about other people's situations, other people that had been kidnapped didn't make it back, things like that that I learned from private investigators. So I created a character. I created this character of Amanda and put several stories into her.
Those stories are true for somebody. They're all true for somebody, and not necessarily all true for her, but they are true happening. So these things do happen now. I talked to other authors. I did a lot of research. I did with a lot of research in Mexican newspapers and in Time magazine and just a lot of different author
people that wrote about this. And in fact I talked to an author who lives in California but under the assumed name now because the cartel was not happy with some of the things he wrote and he used totally the truth, totally name all the correct names and everything,
and now there's a hit out for him. I was able to talk to him through our publishers kind of got together and went to him, and then he called me which was really nice of him to do, trusting although I'm quite a trustworthy person, but nonetheless, and he gave me a lot of information, and I looked up a lot of things, so I was able to accurately talk about a lot in the book from what I learned, not only what I learned firsthand, but what I learned post to the event.
Okay, well, that's great, and I know we've got that established that this is a very truly terrifying nonfiction tale. And you've established primarily what it is primarily nonfiction, but the lead character, Amanda, in her experiences in your book, you've kind of put in some of the other people that would be captive by this cartel those experiences and those experiences being true. So let's get to the story, because this is a fascinating the way you've go unfolded this.
You're going back and forth. We're traveling from affluence and then in America and then in Mexico, a completely different world, and you've brought the reader into that world. Tell us about, as you mentioned before, the incident. Tell us a little bit of background about Amanda, and then what happened to Amanda and how this story began.
Amanda was a performer and had actually hurt herself. She had a physical injury which she was prescribed vic it in for and she became addicted to vic it in, which happened sometimes legitimately through different physical ailments or something that's a problem in the United States actually, and so it was where she was having headaches with it. Without it, you had to have more. She had been to a
couple of rehabs and that just wasn't really working. And what she learned in rehab was you could go to Mexico and get these drugs. Just get them. Now, having grown up in San Diego, this character was very familiar with crossing the border. A lot of people would do it. They would go to Insanitas and Rosarita Beach for sheep,
lobsters and things like this. I've talked to many people that have done that over the years, and it was nothing to just slide into Tiuana for some drinks or just you know, to shop around for Chotchke's or something. So plus Mexicans, Wealthy Mexicans wanted their children to be educated in the US, so they would have established some kind of residents in the San Diego area along with their Mexican residents so their kids could go to school
in the US. So she met in school lots of kids like that, wealthy Mexicanan had gone to their homes growing up somewhat so crossing the board. My point is crossing the border was not a big deal for her as it would be for somebody from you know, Wisconsin or somebody somewhere else to go into Tijuana at that time, and you own, this was just prior to when you needed to have a passport. You just needed a driver's
license to cross the border before. One thing I learned through this incident was I always thought that Americans were kidnapped in Mexico for ransom, that they were targeting wealthy Americans or their children or something like that, And that's not all. They kidnapped for lots of reasons. One was to use Americans or you know, younger, younger Americans for
drug mules, right drugs across the border. Another was for human trafficking for sexual reasons, not necessarily across the borders to the United States, but within Mexico or maybe being sent to other countries like Russia, which is actually what was in store for this girl down the road to be used for human trafficking, and that part is true.
So then and also another reason that there could be a kidnapping would be someone to just prove that they can do it, like a gang member that would have no qualms, you know, like go kidnap that person over there, or you've got thirty minutes and go kidnap somebody or kill them or something is unbelievably ruthless. Unbelievably ruthless. So those are some other things that I learned, was that what kidnapping could be done, why they would kidnap there?
Now? How did you say that Amanda was very comfortable while going over to the border. She had sort of a party streak. She was a party girl. You talked about an addiction to Viking in and a lot of people are addicted to oxycotton, some form of morphine, not heroine, but at least the opiates that. So people have a sort of a taste for that and they may have developed it legitimately or otherwise. Cocaine's in this mixt though as well, because it's a very social drug as well,
cocaine alcohol. So we're talking about a pretty serious addiction in Amana had it wasn't a very wasn't very casual. It was it was a.
Yeah, it was not pretty and but and she was not happy with it. Clearly she wasn't happy to be like that. I don't think maybe some people are that habit. So she actually went there. She was in a big need, I guess you could say, in the middle of the day this one day, and made them a mistake of going there by herself. She had never done that. She'd gone usually with a friend to cross the border to
purchase something from a pharmacia. But she had a fight with her boyfriend, just you know, other factors, and she drove in the middle of the day down into Tijuana anticipating a quick purchase. But she drove into Tijuana and was pulled out of her car in broad daylight, and her car was driven away and they had her.
Now we're talking about a fairly valuable vehicle as well, and this would be important to the story. Whose vehicle was this?
And uh, well, I guess valuable, Well, that's by definition would be valuable to them. It wasn't like it was a Mercedes. I think it was a maybe a Mustang or something. Not to say that that's not a nice car. That is a nice carce okay, So it was something like that. I don't remember this second Tomro, you know, some kind of a car like that, and it was her parents had bought it for her, and so anyway, she drove that and then that was the last time
anyone saw that car. It was taken and it was actually stolen from the people that stole it, and it was stripped and driven to a impound lot outside of Tijuana. And by the time that we got the word of that from an insurance company, we went there, which was guarded by vicious dogs. It was just like a whole nother that was just a side story that was unbelievable.
It was stolen from there, taken from there. So it was just a very frustrating experience, not only when we scared to death for her and being nervous there ourselves. It was very frustrating, frustrating dealing with the way the penal system is in Mexico. You're afraid of that. You don't know which police are good police. Maybe who's on the take of the cartel.
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All that and they plus the police. You could go into one police station on a corner and they said they don't know anything. They tell you to go to another one like a block away, and I go, well, can't you just call them up up to your computer system. And we had a private investigator who's bilingual with US Mexican American actually, and he'd said, don't say that, don't get chook up. You just got to accept what it is.
And it was very frustrating, and it was hot, it was hot, dirty, frustrating, scary, all these things, and we just kept thinking every second longer would we find her. And he was reporting back to my husband, this investigator, saying that the odds were not good of finding her alive, finding her at all, and men, particularly alive. So he did this type of thing. This wasn't his first time, so it was very stressful situation.
Now we've just jumped way ahead for our audience. So let's go back a little bit to the to the realization that Amanda is actually missing. Now you said, this is not the first time she's gone over the borders. She's an adult.
They didn't know she was doing this. They did not know she was doing this.
Okay, Well, take us back to where they at the point where they actually realized the horror that she is missing, and then what there is there immediate reaction being in the US, and what do they do and what do they how do they get to the point where they have a private investigator that's bilingual, that's ready to help them take us back.
Okay, Well, on about maybe day two two or three, I got a call from family members saying that she was missing. And I was kind of complacent, to be honest. They said, well, you know what, remember that time she went to Las Vegas with her friend and for a couple of days and you didn't know about it and stuff like that, cause she was twenty one, by the way, which also affected how the police felt in the United States because she was twenty one. So they go, no,
this is different. You know, we were able to figure out you're calling different peace people where she was. Nobody knows anything. I still, because she had had some problems, wasn't all that shook up, to be honest, And I feel bad about that now, and I would caution people to go with your gut. Their gut was right, and I was distant and involved in my own life and everything else, and I just wasn't quite that worried yet. However,
on I think day three there, three or four. They kept calling her cell and she was you know, they were just leaving messages finally to sell. The voicemail box was full, so they knew there was a real problem because it's you know, just like everybody else. They checked their voice, their messages all the time. They live by
the cell. Well, with one day, like I guess the fourth day, maybe third day, third day they called in a Mexican male answered kind of with a thick accent and said a few she's mine, and her father went berserk and called again, and a female answered in a Mexican and just kind of said hello or whatever and then just hung up. So then he called me and said that you know she's in Mexico. And I said, well, how do you know she's in Mexico. There's people that
speak Spanish, you know, right there. And he said, the phone makes a funny ring when it's across the border, Like if you have an American phone and you cross into Tijuana, it'll work for a mile or two in, but it makes a funny ring when you're calling, and it made that ring, so he knew at least the phone was there whereas she but the phone is there, and so that was the first idea they knew she was there, they didn't know she they didn't even I
don't know if they thought about that. I suppose that was a possibility, but I think they thought she was just partying with friends, maybe in San Diego area, could be up in LA could be you know, she could be anywhere. They didn't know that was the problem. Could she have been passed out because she've odeed somewhere, something
like that. So now there's this shocking thing. So my well, the we had somebody else got a called and got through the channels of their work, of their security department, a number in Washington that they used for international problems, and they got us in touch with the company, and we got this in this private investigator who we hired, who lived actually in southern California and who did help
in these kind of situations. So we hired him. And then there was my uh, one of our friends was an ex Navy seal, and so there was like this little motley crew and we we just I flew out there when I got that message and then I heard the panic and the voice. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is this is something this is really something. Then I made plans and flew out thinking I would just,
you know, help in any way I could. To be honest, I thought that I would help doing domestic things, making sure there was food to eat, that they had clean clothes to wear, that I would write something for them. You know. I was thinking, maybe America's most planet. These are the thoughts going in my mind. I was picked up from the airport and we went straight into Mexico,
so I'm like, oh wow. We made posters with her picture on it and wrote everything in Spanish, and that's kind of how it started.
What was the assessment by the private investigator is the character in your book, What was his assessment of the situation first? And then what was his plan and what was his sort of what was his the likelihood of success given based on his experience?
Well, to her father, he always put forth a very positive face and thought and stuff like that. To my husband say, he was more real, I guess and said, yeah, they're not that great. We have to set expectations here somehow at some point that you know, it's a chancy situation, and with each passing moment it's not. It doesn't get better, just like you read all the time about any kind of a disappearance, kidnapping or disappearance. The more the time
goes by, the less of a good thing. It is not that it's good, but the less of your chances of a good result are. So that was I mean, we were praying all the time. We were just totally panicked. It was really hard. Tempers were flaring, and we just had a really rough time of it. We would kind of wax and wane with how hopeful we could be kind of without dissolving into tears stuff like that. So we would just go in there and put these posters
up and try to ask people. And he the investigator, had a he had met was a former state trooper, so he had some connections and the wood was going out underground and you know whoever he talked to.
And then.
One of our one of the guys that worked for my brother was he was from Tiwana and his cousin was a cop there. And so I mean we had like these different little you know, feelers you might say, trying to help. Plus we were paying cash all over the place to just try to go into a pharmacy and made off from you know, a little money. Have you seen this girl in this picture and stuff like that.
Of course nobody knew anything. They took the money and then said they didn't know anything, which was not true in some cases. So that's how we were doing it.
Now.
Uh, what I was gonna ask was what day was the car discovered? And why was it good use for your brother? And inversely, why was it not so good? Why did his wife Diane think it wasn't good news at all?
Well, it was reported stolen because the San Diego police initially said, we can't help you if she's in Mexico, that's not our jurisdiction. But we can pull out of missing person's here and you know, keep the keep our eyes open here, but we can't cross, and we don't.
This was then.
I don't know how things are now. This was a few years, like six years ago, so I don't know now what the reciprocity is talking back and forth. This was then, and so that was very frustrating that when they just said we just can't. So then we reported the car stolen. So at least the border patrol, you know, this car with this plate or something comes through. So because it was reported stolen, the ven number was and
even in Tijuana was called in or something. So we had a call from the insurance company, I mean from the yeah, I guess it was the insurance company, yeah, saying that this stolen car had been found. We were like elated. We thought that we would I don't know what we thought. We thought that we would find some clues with this car, like who brought it in, where did they find it, you know, stuff like that, what
area of town. Well that didn't turn out to be so helpful because by the time we had to pay to by the time we found the proper place to pay to go to this place, and then drove to this horrific place out of town up this mountain, and then the guys there were no help at all, didn't care, were no help, and the car was not there. The car was already gone. So it turned out to be nothing we I mean nothing for us. We knew the car was gone and stripped, and nobody would talk. Nobody
knew anything. And so that was very very frustrating, cost in fighting between all of us a little bit. So what you know, you're you go peaks and valleys. As we were, oh my gosh, this is our first clue, and we're going there and we're excited, and the mother and I didn't even get out of vehicle because these vicious and dogs were circling and barking and and it was,
you know, scared to death. We're in this pickup truck with the doors locked when the guys got out because this man came to the door and called the dogs to him. So they bravely went in and found out nothing. So that took half a day at least to get that done. This another was like another wasted moment, wasted half day actually, so how we looked at it.
Now, you in your book, very very carefully and very effectively crisscross and take us back from the US and from the family to Amanda. And Amanda, your family member is in custody. Here, she's a captive. Now, tell us what this captivity is characterized by. Tell us what her ordeal is like.
Well, that was that's the that's the hard part to read, I think for most people because because this is the part that I encompassed different stories that I had heard and put them on this character of Amanda. So here's this young, pretty American girl and she's missing for eleven days at the hands of these ruthless men, some of whom were drug addicted themselves, and some are just so cold it's like they have no soul. It is unbelievable what some of these guys are. Like you read about
it in the paper. You know, when they say heads a roll, then they physically had heads. I remember reading in Time magazine one time that there were these actual decapitated heads rolling into like the State building. I mean, who does that? You know what I mean, how can you? I don't know. That's just sickening. So anyway, she's this character is captive by people like this. Now, some of
them were maybe worse than others. Some of the characters that were holding her were worse than others, which is I think when you read about people Patty Hirst and different things there, some of the captors were nicer than others. It was in this case as well. But she was drugged and tortured and starved and threatened and threatened not only just for herself and her life, but her families.
Because they had made copies of her driver's license, knew where her family lived and who she was in a sense, and they could find her family, and they said the family would be the first to go then you So that was a very scary time for Amanda as well, and so everywhere that well, because I mean she was tortured and fearful, fearful for her life and for her family's life, and she was drugged. She never knew what
day it was, what time it was. I mean, she lost like nineteen pounds and eleven days because they basically fed her like beans and chips a couple of times. So you know, it was not a pleasant It was horri horrific. It was horrible. It was it was horrible on all levels.
You have a character somewhat sympathetic character, you know, among the cads and and villains of this story, and her name is Maria. And so tell us about who this Maria is in this story and in relation to Amanda.
Well, the cartel in this story and in real life as well, they're intertwined. That the drug trafficking is sex trafficking. These guys are all cousins or brothers there. You know, some of the soldiers will interchange and will work for one and then the other and stuff like that. Just to kind of keep everybody on their toes and keep them, even though there's no honesty among thieves, to sort of keep them honest, you might say throw that the leaders
are always in control. Well, some of the females are married to these guys or are sisters of these guys. And in the book, Maria is actually married to someone and then like a cousin or sister to someone else. And she has a little boy and he's in this one place. They move people around when you are kidnapped, you're off and moved around for different locations, and this was true here and in one location there was this woman, Maria and this little boy too, although they did move
the boy out after a while. She wanted her son away from some of this. But so you get kind of a backstory on what's going on that a little bit. And Maria felt bad for this girl because she knew what could be in store for her. She knew what had happened to others, and this girl reminded her of her sister, so she kind of was hoping that the worst wouldn't happen to this girl. But at the end, she really had no control.
At this time, what did Amanda, if she knew anything at all, what did she think her what the cartel wanted from her, and the Yeah, in.
The beginning, she had no earthly idea fact. She thought it might be a mistake and stuff like that. And then they told her that she would get her car back. They kept saying, you're going to get your car back, and you're going to get to leave. You just do what we say, which they hadn't told her yet what that would be. But they tortured her too, physically and mentally and emotionally every which way, so and she just
kept thinking she was in her drug hay. She would say, if I could just get my car back, you know, I'm just gonna be. I don't care that I'll just leave. I'll just go. I won't tell anybody anything. I'll never tell on them, and just you know, let me go and all this. But what they wanted her for was to be used as a drug mule. And when I actually found out how this was, this operation was working, I wanted to it was President Bush at the time. I wanted to like call him up and say, hey,
I know something, But I mean I didn't know. It was a little bit fearful, to be honest, But they wanted her her and others like her to be drug mules because you only needed your driver's license to cross the border. And even though when we would cross there would be drug sniffing dogs and stuff. And I asked later, how could you were you scared of the drug sniffing
dogs and she said everything was pre arranged. So there were a lot of inside by the car to hel and this is on the Mexican side, but too and they had like a walkie talking next to her, and you know, they said, if you give any indication at all, your family is dead and then you So the whole thing was quite you know, that's what they wanted for initially, but then when they saw the posters, because we kept putting up posters and the word was spreading that somebody
was actively looking for this girl. Sometimes people don't look for people right away, or don't have the resources, or don't think what to do, or maybe if if their loved one is from Wisconsin and for example, we were right there, but you know, they're far away. Maybe they don't know that they're there or how to do it or what to do, and by the time they get there, it's too late. So not everybody gets as actively looked for in time, you might say. So we were putting
up these posters. Sometimes they were being taken down, but we had them up all over and sometimes we found we would find some police officers in their cars that would have a copy. So we were thrilled at that because we were trying to take them to different police stations and have them pass them out and we didn't know if they would and stuff like that, so we
were hopeful that, you know, that would help us. Well, the cartel saw that too, so their plan they were they were not happy, and they weren't going to lose. They don't want to lose anything. So their plan was to send her to Mexico City for use in their prostitution trade and then eventually probably liked to Russia. And
that's how people disappear. I mean, if you live through it, if you live that long as a young woman, if you live to get there, and if you live through Mexico City for however long you're there, then you can be shipped somewhere else and and you know your family would never find you.
Now you're in you're in Mexico, your brother, his wife, you have a private investigator, and then yeah, there's other family members as well that are calling people just an ex seel friends. Okay, but I'm saying that you have all kinds of support in America as well, people if they have any contacts at all, if they know anybody or know anything. So there's actively all these people looking
for Amanda. You found you wasn't very beneficial or any kind of significant help finding the vehicle or in that pursuit. So what is the next What is the next after the vehicle and the failure of that, and maybe the despondency from lack of success with that, what's the next step in you and your family search for Amanda.
Well, the only thing that sort of saved us that day from probably shooting ourselves from being so despondent was as we've left that Mountaine area, we were getting back towards the city, if you could, and then, mind you, this is like a third world country. You're cross into tea one. It it's just unbelievab well it's totally different. But we saw this police car and my brother ran up to him and with a poster. He said, have
you seen this girl? And he had a poster in the car with him, and my brother just about burst into tears. He said, oh my god, thank god, they're they're looking too, at least some. So that was like one little positive thing after that huge negative, you know with the car. So we're kind of excited that they're looking too, and so then but then the thought crossed our mind, so this is the highs and lows. So that was a load, then a high, and the next low was if the car tell or whoever has her.
We didn't know who had her for sure. We thought maybe somebody involved with drugs might have her, but we didn't know who exactly. If they knew she was being looked for, that could be good, That could be bad. That could be bad, that they could be just angry, and there could be a body tossed out just as a as a warning or as a like f you or something, you know, don't mess with us, or they Maybe then then we would say, maybe they'll let her go, you know, in our hopeful moments. So we were kind
of scared. We were happy that we that we knew that more people were looking, but we were all soul scared about it because we didn't know would they would that make it worse for her?
Wasn't there any wasn't there any question that she might be kidnapped? And there might be especially now what you've the scenario have just depicted, is that if if there are people with resources and the means and already sniffing around in Tijuana, why can't somebody offer this this safe release of this person for ransom. Well, didn't that we were.
Putting We were putting out reward, the word of reward we were, but ransom they want like people that are kidnapped ransom were kidnapped for lots of money, very wealthy people. And actually, since this book has come out, I've had people call me who were kidnapped for ransom. I just met. I just talked to a young woman actually from California, just two weeks ago, who was kidnapped and tortured horribly for she was wealthy from a wealthy family, and she
was kidnapped ransom. So when they kidnapped for ransom, they kidnapped for lots of money. My family didn't have that kind of money, so I guess, and that wasn't their original feel. They probably could tell. I mean, the girl that was kidnapped for lots of money had her own Mercedes that she drove in their beautiful car and whatever, and you know mine has like you know, used use mustn't or something. Do you know what I'm saying. So
it was just a different, different economic situation. But we did put out the word for a reward to try to get help and stuff. And we felt that it was a race against time. Always, every minute was like a race against time. But we did of clues a little bit after like several days. She's gone eleven days,
mind you. So I think maybe on about the eighth day, somebody said to saw the poster in our hands and said, I've seen that girl, and that started, uh, you know, chain reaction, you might say, different events for the last for the final three.
Days described describe the reaction of Diane, a man, his mother, Stephen, the father, yourself, What was their reaction? I mean, obviously you're going through your own torment, but especially for these the parents. Tell us what their reaction was when that girl said I've seen this girl.
Yeah it was. He was Actually he was like an ultimate fighter guy, an MMA type of guy, a champion, but he was down there where he was he had started initially going there for stair shots. He's from a wealthy family in Laoya, and he said, I've seen her like like in the back of a pharmacia, you know, doing that's another thing. You could buy your oxycon and they take you in the back room. You could chop
it up and just snort it right up there. So they that they keep that's how they keep you hooked too, that you don't even just get the pills to take and leave and try to bring them across the border. Say a handful in your pocket and take the chance. You can just do them right there. And he had said he had seen that. He called her not by the correct name, like the character's name is Amanda, and I don't remember what he called her in the book,
but it was a similar name. And we go, that's close enough, you know, because he was he was high at the time too, he was he was like drinking. He had been drinking too. He was like sort of weaving. We didn't know if it was for real, but he didn't say there, Susan, it was like something close to Amanda or maybe because sometimes she went by Mandy, and I think maybe he said something like that. So we're like, yes,
you know, that's close. That's that's got to be close. Plus, mind you, we were practically hysterical that somebody said something. So he was hungry. We gave him food, we were giving him trying to give him some money that, you know, to guide us. And he took us on a kind of a wild goose chase at first, and I was angry. Excuse me, I was angry because he wanted to eat again. We just sped him. And then y'all hop in a cab and go into the it's horrible the middle area
of t one. He goes, well, here's what I like to eat, and I go eat. I mean, you just ate. And so we go into this place. My brother's gonna be quiet, be quiet, you know, don't check him up. So we go in there and there's like these there's four guys now and me and my sister in law, and he says to me, you should get this is they have the best hamburgers here in town. And I'm like, you know what, I'm not gonna order a hamburger here. I don't think they even have like, oh, what do
your codes or anything? I said, I go, I think it's price of mystery meat. And he actually lunged at me over the you know, over this chair and the other guy's had to pull him off, and he says ultimate fighter and they go to me, what are you doing? I go, what am I doing? I don't even want to So we're all like fighting right there, and so yeah, I mean, your tempers just go, you know crazy. I didn't like the guy. I didn't believe him. I didn't
want to. I thought he was going to take everybody for a ride and somebody brothers begging me to be quiet, and so it was kind of, you know, there were all kinds of sub things going on while we're wondering and looking and trying to find her.
What did he did? He point in the direction for the family the pharmacia that he saw Amanda recently. I mean, were we talking about this trip or were we talking about other trips? And based on that information of that pharmacia, what what did you and your family then do?
Well?
He did? He did say, we walked several blocks and he goes, I know we were in that one, in the back of that one. So he didn't want everybody to go in like a parade. So he picked me and maybe my brother and maybe he's not the not the interpreter though even though I can speak Spanish, I can't. I'm not. If they go really fast, I lose a lot. So we're going there and he says to the you know the guy, you know, where's that girl? You know? He goes, you know that girl with the long hair,
blah blah blah blah. The guy he's at first of all exactly like he can't speak English as all. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And we're trying to offer money and then we'd get thrown out at the end of the long story short, we get thrown out. So and then the ultimate Fighter sort of blames us because he said you acted too desperate, and so everything was like very tense, very tense. Not just nicely walking
in and trying stuff. It was very tense. And I didn't even know if he was making it up either this kid, because he wanted money but got but the and food clearly often.
Clearly, so you know that.
I mean, it was a it was hard. It was really really hard.
So you've you've failed again, or at least it seems like more failure. And and like you say, this guy's acting very sketchy. So I'm there with you in the story too, where he's just doesn't seem so reliable. So I would be cynical myself. So what happens next, Well, then he.
Talked about and I can't you know, I don't remember exactly. I think it may be right. The next day we met him again. The day ends and we meet him again and feed him again. And so which is okay. I you know, I'm not trying to say that I was like a not nice person myself. I wouldn't feed him. It's just that I just had a hard time believing him. I didn't want him to just use my my family
who was at their wits end. So then he talked about in this really sea seed area cd or that there's like these hotels where girls would maybe trade sex for drugs, and he goes, there's a lot of American girls that go that, that are hooks that go there. Now at this point, there's not we're not talking about captivity. We're just saying girls that are there, that they're messed up, that are like kind of like living in the street and doing that. So he's my my brother goes, I'm
not here to make a moral judgment. I want to get my daughter back, take me there. So we're all ready we're in a middle area again, which is not a good area to be. And so the private investigator says he's gonna take me and my sister in will back to the border area at least like towards McDonald's, which was safer, and they would go to that. The other guys would go to the hotel and he would go join them.
So we do that.
She and I are back there by the border closer and these guys are roaming around, going into these picky places and they get so do go into this one hotel where he's seen where I guess maybe he's even done drugs with girls. I don't know his whole story. I just know some of it, and it was enough. But she was not there. So there were girls there,
but American girls, but she was not there. So I remember my brother said that he was on the one hand, kind of relieved, but on the other hand not because you know, he wanted to get her in this to be over with, but then he was kind of relieved she wasn't there. It was horrible situation, very seedy and very I mean, it's more graphically described in the books, and I would really want to stay in the air. So that was another day.
Then well you should say it on the air, because this, it is the most shocking killers in true crime history.
You've heard say it. It's hard for me to actually, it's easier for me to write it than it is to say it. But these girls were Okay, everybody's like nude, they're puking, they're hitting up, they're they're having sex right there in the open and in the rooms and just you know, it's gross and horrible and shocking, and you don't you pray to God that that nobody you know is there like that.
Yeah, it's a shooting gallery, is it?
Oh? Sure? Everything you name it and they do it?
Did it? Do it? And you describe the conditions in Tijuana toil you talk about CD and because we talked about it in the introduction, you you really describe how bad this is, how.
It's very bad too. It's sad because children are begging and they're so and there's people that are missing limbs who are begging, and I mean there's just all kinds of oh my gosh. It's you go there and you're like so grateful for anything that you have. You feel bad that you've ever complained about anything, because these people, a lot of them have nothing and they're just and the cartel has everything, and it's just, you know, it's horrible. It's horrible. So we didn't want to split up.
They didn't.
You know, we barely split up like twos and threes a few feet away from me each other, because it was just we were kind of paranoid there.
Yeah, because Diana suggested that maybe she could go across the streets so they can cover more ground, and they.
Said no, that was mixed. And then when we were at that one place where he was saying these hamburgers were great, which I was sure that they were, like dog made the first the guy said, well, listen, we'll go to look at these hotels YouTube stay right here. I'm like, I'm not staying here, my god, I don't even know where we are to, you know, what a cabby to come by and would even take us to
the right place if we got a cab. So that's when we hiked for like eight blocks back with the private investigator taking us back, because I go, if you guys come back and we're not here, then what you know. So there's a lot of stuff you know, a lot of fear going on in so many elements, so many levels.
But the one.
Thing, that one thing that the Ultimate Fire did do was he had a friend who was a police officer in the Mexican Police Force, and he said he knew that this guy would help us off hours, like you know, off book sure out for cash, and so we said, we'll take it. We'll do anything. By that point, i mean, we're we're now in day eight, day nine or something. You know, we would do anything, anything because we're just getting scary and not looking good. So the next day
he arranges that we meet this guy. So he comes, we give him some money, he says he'll come back. We never saw him again. We never saw the Ultimate Fighter again after that. But down now we've got this cup guy who's who was a very nice guy. I'm gonna say he was like in his mid thirty or young thirties, you know, maybe thirty fourish, married with two kids, and he really Now, mind you, we're putting our trust
in somebody that we have no idea. But at that point we were just so scared that we would do anything.
And so.
That led to another whole set of situations circumstances.
So we're at day nine. You have a police officer, now not the hungry guy that's it's sketchy. So what does he recommend and what can he do with his contacts?
So he gets off work at four in the afternoon, so this is going to now be taking place in the evenings. So the first time I'm there with my sister in law two, but then after that, since this has taken place, the meeting with him is like at
night more. It was determined that we wouldn't be there, so we stayed in San Diego the last two nights two three nights, because we went in the day, but then we'd go back take the We took the train back across the border and then hopped to the train because it just we didn't want to be there at night, and they didn't want to stare at night either. So he now the cop knew being cop places that are
even worse. It's called Zlana Norte. There's an area called Zononorte that is just really it's like it's like hell on earth. Really, people were doing anything with anybody, and all kinds of drugs and all kinds of gloss things just on the in the streets everything. There's processes everywhere. It's just you know, drug, drug addicts everywhere and stuff
like that. So they there was like four of them, four guys, and they would go two would watch their backs and two would go into a sad bar and then they would come out, you know, trying to find her with the with the posters and stuff like that and cash. And so I'm gonna say that maybe on night ten, somebody who was messed up, said, an American who was messed up, said, I've seen her here in that area and with two Mexican guys in the evening.
And so the plan by this time it was midnight, but he said he thought it was earlier in the evening, like eight or nine that he had seen them. So the plan was to come back the next night and look again. So that's what they did.
And tell us about the next night. What did they encounter and before before you do that, what was there did they share the information with? Obviously they shared this information with yourself and Steve's wife. Tell us what what was the feeling like when you got that little bit of information? It seemed optimistic. What was it like for you and for Dad?
Yeah, Well, we were hopeful that a this person was telling the truth. Mind you, he was. He was on drugs and they gave him there was a reward and he knew it. So I'm skeptical always. So there was that, But then there was the thought that maybe she was alive. That was the big thing, was that maybe she would be alive and still in Tijuana also, right, So we were hopeful about that, but we're scared to get too hopeful.
I mean, you're scared too, because when the lights go out and you get in bed at night, boy, your mind just takes you to every horrible thing you've ever heard. Well, you know, you get scared to think about it. So the last but turned out to be the last night. They go back, the four of them, and they meet at like five o'clock I think, and they go back to this horrible area and they're doing all that again and looking and there's a guy and they called him
the Twitter, another American. Actually there's a lot of a lot of drug addicts down there, and he was probably in his forties and he was really high and he said he knew where she was. Right then, wow, And I mean that was just a moment that it's unbelievable for them. Now, we didn't know this, The sister ron and I did not know this. They didn't like call us up and tell us that when this was going on.
What was the questions for him? Though? For our audience, what was okay somebody makes a statement like that, you got to get that statement qualified. And when you've had all these failures and you've had all these you know again, everybody is at this tense, super tense peak. You know, it's hot, it's day. Yeah, eleven, tell us what the conversation was when this twitcher. The twitcher says, I know where she is right now. Well, how does he know where she is right now?
Because he worked for the drug cartel. He worked for them, and he knew where she was, and he knew that the next day they were taking her to Mexico City to be using the prostitution trade because they knew she was being looked for and they were fed up and she was attractive and they thought they could make money off of her that way. So well, they threatened him, and I mean this is partly where I put in other stories too, you know, And so there was a
lot of threatening to this guy. But he he kind of had always had thoughts that he'd like to get out of, out from underneath the situation he was in, and he could well, it was a horrible life and he wanted to get away from it and maybe get back to the States. He hadn't seen his family in years, and he would have moments of clarity thinking he would
like to do that. And so here they're offering him cash and he's like, maybe this I could just take the cash and go, but that's not what ultimately happens to him. But anyway, so he tells them where she is and they formulate a plan. I'm giving you like a quick version. They formulate a plan, and they know it's a it could be a deadly plan. It could be the last thing they ever do.
And it was.
I mean when we talked about it later, we would sob talking about this situation. When I was good, you know, taking notes like interviewing him to write the book. I mean, we would just sob because this was so intense and so scary.
What was the plan?
The plan She was held in the rooftop shed, and the plan was that the police officer who was in plane clothes and off duty would kick open the door with his gun drawn and his badge, and they would try to infer that there were cops out there around and that they came to get this girl and they better not do anything you know, inside, but give the
girl because like they would be killed. This was kind of like they would try to infer that they didn't know if that would happen, although the twitter did say that there was a good chance that the guy's holding her would be high because they weren't expecting to, you know, a rescue situation that night, and the guys that they had holding are were low up old guys with guns, but that like to get high. When I say high, I mean like maybe heroin, you know high, really high.
Yeah yeah, So not.
Just like smoking a joint. So cause they're all they're all you know, lows and just ladies and everything. So they were hoping that they would be high so that they would be slow in their reaction. Everything would have to be of the perfect everything would have to be perfect for it to work.
Its still very daring, though, oh very.
Daring, because like my brother said to his friend, the maybe silly goes, you don't have to go, he goes, I have to fight to the desk to get her back. He he's he said, but you don't have to do this. So I mean it was you know, very emotional for them and everything too. As they made this plan. I mean they had first they all tried tried to, tried to, They threw their ideas together of a plan, and then they came up with they picked up what they thought
was the best plan. Why didn't in a fast situation.
Why did Why did the police officer volunteer to do this? Because clearly he had less well, he had had no ties basically, so why, I know, that's just amazing.
I mean he was getting paid, you know, it was sure had money to do it. I think he had a good heart. Yeah, and I believe that he thought that there was a good chance this plan would work because some of these guys are fools. This wasn't going to be it wasn't going to be like Felix Ariana holding her. You know, it was going to be some of his thugs. And some of these thugs aren't you know, they're not all that smart. That ones that are that
are like soldiers, not the upper guys. I mean, they were thinking that this is how the situation would be according to how the Twitter talked about it. Sure, So I mean if she'd have been in a different you know, maybe in in a main place with those top guys, it would have clearly been a different story. Like the girl that I was telling about that I've talked to recently that was kidnapped ransom. I mean they had the
deea that had the FBI. They had like twelve limousines coming with guys with full body armor to rescue her and stuff. I mean, she was from a very well to do and well known family. Sure, I'm not at liberty to talk about right now because it's an ongoing situation case. But so you know, there's different things, and it's just her. Her has just happened a year ago, and this is like six years ago to a to
a girl that didn't have a lot of money. So you know what I mean, different stories, different situations, but clearly a lot of situations happened.
Still.
So anyway, they were hoping that this final from the plan they came up us, you know, would work. So they went to execute the plan. And well, I mean, should I say it or should people read the book? I don't know what to say here, well.
We'll leave them, We'll leave them hanging on the cliff here if you like, sure, why not. Yeah, it's been it's very interesting, very very interesting, and you really draw the characters in and draw the reader in and to really experience this real hell. I mean it's another day in hell. I think you have a Yeah, another day and another day, and it's hot. It's frustrating. People seem,
especially in the beginning, very oblivious. What you really portrayed to is, you know, the frustration with Amanda's father and mother and then their guide Bert saying, listen, you just don't understand. These police horses don't work together. They're telling you to go to another police station a few blocks away. Why is that, Well, because they all work independently, and so it's not. And so you really tell the picture of the draw the picture of how it really is there.
Oh yeah, I painted that scene because that's how it was. It was extremely frustrating, and when you're you're want to shake people, but then you're pad you're going to get arrested yourself there, and then almost you don't care, and you know, things like that. It was just it was amazing.
It was just amazing. And my initial book, my working title was eleven Days in Hell because it was eleven Days in Hell for her, eleven days and hell for everybody, but my publisher kind of nixed that title for Kidnapped by the Cartel because they thought they didn't want somebody to think it was a religious book.
Which, well, I think I just think it's more appropriate title Kidnapped by the Cartel and more provocative actually, because there's so many twists. It's like some titles are overused, you know, some terms are overused. So yeah, this is this is much more appropriate, and I think it's more unique as well. Yeah, yeah, very interesting. So I won't give too much away, But in real terms, how is Amanda okay? Right?
Aside from the book, Amanda think God is doing well now? Be a couple of years of of oh, trauma counseling, sure, but she's doing very well now and so we're grateful for that. I would not have written the book probably, well, I can't say that. I don't know, but it would have been a very difficult thing to write if she were not doing well now.
Sure, sure. Yeah, and the tone, the tone of the book would be much different obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, it would be hard getting up for the interviews because then you'd have to relive. I mean it's hard enough with this, right what happened and what almost happened? Never mind, Well, I.
Was on a TV show two weeks ago in New York, actually, and it was hard. It was hard to talk a little bit about it on camera, even you know, when I could have put myself back into that spot. So it was better to talk about the character in the book, do you know what I mean?
Yeah? Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. Now, for those that have been listening to the program, do you have a you have a website?
I do. You can get the book at www dot Kidnapped by the Cartel. Well, you can go to Amazon, you can go to Barnesonnoble dot com. You can get it for your e reader. You can get a book, yeah, if you just google my name. I also have another website that's just my name, Karen Shosha. But that's sort of hard to maybe remember. But like if somebody wanted a signed copy or something, they could contact me that way. Some people like that they collect books, but there's a lot of different ways to get it.
Sure. Well, I just wanted to say too that you're on Facebook as well, so if people want to contact you, buya, there are a lot of people. It's just very religious about that. So I'm on.
Twitter now too. I've learned how to do that.
Yeah, you got it going on. Yeah. For those listening to the program of the book that we were profiling this evening is kidnapped by the cartel and this is a novel which is fictional, but it's inspired by a true story. And for those who have been listening, it's a one heck of a true story. And I want to thank you very much Karen Scotia for coming having again.
I really appreciate it. Your super guy and your show is awesome.
Shocks. Well, you've been a great guest, and thank you very much, first for a great read and for a great interview and and something that we normally don't have on True Murder, sort of a happy ending because True Murder we just don't have those, so for once, a little bit of a rarity. So I want to thank you very much for that and wish you all the best of luck with this and again, great book, and thank you for this interview.
Thank you so much.
Thanks to thank you Karen Okay, bye bye, good night.