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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good evening, This is your host, Dan Zupanski, for the program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, from Ancient Rome, through the Dark Ages to the Burgeoning West to the open highways of Earth in America, from the unconscionable exploits of French religious zealot Jills Deraye to such
all American monsters as Jeffrey Dahmer and Alien. Warno's Katherine Ramsland makes an eye opening case for the existence of serial killers throughout time and offers a complete chronological record of the serial killer phenomena, as well as the parallel development of psychology, forensic science, and FBI profiling in the
serial killer's evolving manifestation throughout human history. The book we're profiling this evening is The Human Predator, A historical Chronicle of serial murder and Forensic investigation, With my special guest, journalist and author Katherine Ramsland. Welcome to the program. And thank you for agreeing to this interview. Kathlyn Ramsland, I'm happy to be here. I hope I pronounce your last name properly.
Yep.
Okay, great. First off, I'm sorry about making you again. We didn't get a chance to talk before the program. I wanted to just this is a great book. This is just us. Thank you mind blowing the information it's here that I've never read anywhere else. It's just a very very fascinating comprehensive examination. And let's get right into that.
Take us back in history, because maybe you can tell us one of the contingents you have with this book that about serial killers always mean being in existence, even though maybe obviously we didn't use that term once upon a time. But take us back right from ancient Rome, as I explained in the introduction, tell us a little bit about Rome and Greece, and tell us about the environment at that time, and tell us what was the tell us about that time?
Okay, Well, we really only know about the kinds of serial killers for whom there's documentation. Certain many more serial killers slip through the cracks, But when you're looking at ancient Rome, for example, the documentation is really with the upper classes, and you know, we had a few attorneys who kept records and also some of the Roman leaders.
So that's how we know about a woman named Locusta who helped to put one of the caesars on the throne by being very good at poisoning people and figuring out, you know, just how to get around some of the tricks that some of the leaders had. So she not only did she help with some of the political machinations at the time, but then she actually got sponsored sponsorship for her own poisoning schools. So she wasn't just a
serial killer. She was I guess you would say she's the earliest form of what we see on TV today. The following she had her own disciples and students who she sent out to murder other people.
Yeah, and you really explained too. It's the environment of the orisk detocrats and then the sort of their attitude to people lesser than them, but also just because of the other their wealth, no one really questioned even if they witnessed something or were privy to something, to really question it. And she was really hired basically as for her poisoning skills, and that's what led to the school. It was an incredible story, right, and.
That continued to the rest. You know, for many centuries, the aristocrats were able to get away with whatever they wanted to because they were pretty much untouchable, kind of like bankers today, I guess, yeah, or the wealthy, the weid but in particular, certain certain people in our society who can commit crimes and we can't touch them.
Yes, absolutely. Now continue on another part of your book that to signal out a single out basically as a good example of your theory that your respose throughout this entire examination.
Well, I really kind of. I mean, it started as I just wanted to look at the history of serial murder, because nobody had actually done that in book length form, you know, I had, there were a few things here and there in serial killer encyclopedias, but I wanted to really look at it. And as as it began to unfold for me, it was very clear that serial murder, at least the document of ones that you know we know about, began to manifest in particular ways in particular cultures.
So if you had a very religious culture, for example, dominated by the Roman Catholic Church, a number of people took on certain manifestations, like we had a whole bunch of werewolves for the wives there who were you know, tried as wolves, and if they had families, that was a wolf pack, and they actually talked about and they would actually rip out, you know, people's intestines with their own teeth because they thought of themselves as werewolves. And they had a whole story. But how they met a
guy in the woods who had a magic belt. You know, when they put it on, they changed into a So the culture actually influenced the manifestation of serial murder in many ways, and I found that fascinating, and still that still happens today.
Yes, it's the it's that psychology that you examined in this as well. And just to go back a little bit too, you also at the same time, which this is what I found fascinating, is that every perspective is kind of covered here. It's so comprehensive that you talk about the cust of and having this privilege and the and the the basically the stamp of approval from her aristocratic benefactors. But in the end she was the enacted
at a horrible murder upon her. So tell us just a little bit, but I think it's testament to what people found entertaining or cathartic or whatever at that time.
I can't really say she was murdered, since I was a state sanctioned execution, but what they thought I was pretty interesting. They had her raped by a specially trained giraffe. I always tell my students, I have no idea how to go out doing this training. I leave that to your imagination. And then you know, pulled apart and you know, she was certainly entertainment for the masses. And I guess
that's what happens. When you're sponsored by someone in power and that person falls from power, you're one of the ones to go.
Absolutely. Now what you also talk about, this book really does cover the parallel development of forensic evidence and the whole gathering of forensic evidence and the science of it. Basically, it's all.
I'll tell you what, though, because when I was writing this, I realized there were a number of really interesting forensic stories that I just couldn't fit into this, and that ended up becoming a sort of parallel book called Beating the Devil's Game about really the start of all the many different areas of forensic science. By these pioneers who were determined to get science into the court room because
the courts didn't want them. So that was a little bit too big of a story to tell in this one, because The Human Predator is really about the history of serial murder. But yeah, I mean it goes hand in hand, because I actually have picked out a dozen and I wrote this in a book called The Devil's Dozen. A dozen serial murders that changed the face of forensic science, that actually changed the way investigations were done because of the particular either the method of the murders or the
form they were taking. They realized that they were up against something that they had to they just they just want equipped to handle and soor or Sometimes at the very same time as a series of murders was going on, somebody was innovating something in the sciences, and those two things collided, if you will. For example, looking at trying to type and do blood typing, and as they were
able to distinguish animal from human blood. We had this really creepy serial killer, Ludwig Tesno, who was ripping kids apart and also ripping animals apart. But whenever they thought they caught him, he would say well, I you know, I'm a furniture maker. I have all the dye. You know, all the stains you see in my clothes are from the dyes that I use. And so fortuitously they now had a way to look at whether it's something was blood or wasn't and also distinguish it between animal and
human blood. And as a result they were able to prove that he, in fact was a murderer.
Right now, you do feature of some really interesting killers, like we talked about in the introduction. And again if if my pronunciation is wrong here my French isn't so good, the Yieldie Rays we're talking about the fourteen hundred day.
Yeah, one of my favorites.
Yeah, you talk quite a bit about him where you write quite a bit about him. So tell us the story of.
This so interesting because you know here he's like the confidant of Joan of arc who so you would think someone as you know, her right hand man, so to speak, someone like that would be would tend to be not somebody you would think would become serial killer, and in particular in the very brutal way that he did. But he really he was the richest man in France at the time, he was richer than the king. He had
a lot of castles, and he loved warfare. So the whole Joan of Our campaign for him was not just about you know, Joan of Arc hearing holy voices telling, you know, guiding her, but also it was about you know, being able to just get out there and kick some butt. When she was captured and he was unable to do anything about it, he didn't want to just go back
home to his castles. He got bored, and so he then met up with some alchemists and you know, people who were professed to be able to show him magical things through the occult and as a result, he began to get involved in sacrificing children and to the point where this became really a bloodlust for him. And he then would have these big dinner parties where were sacrificing
these children was the dessert. I mean he'd hang them up on hooks, he'd rake them, he'd eviscerate them, disembowel them, do all kinds of things to them, and then throw them into the you know, the big fireplaces. And we don't know how many children he actually killed, because you know, his confession was was you know, we don't know. As I said, we don't know. They definitely found human bones
in some of the fireplaces. Oddly, in my opinion, the odd thing was that his relatives were not really objecting so much to the child murder as they were to the fact that he was draining the family coffers, because he would do these things, and then he would put all this money into the churches as if, I guess, to balance out what he was the black stuff with
the white stuff, I guess. And so because he was spending so much money and the churches, his relatives decided, you know, we got to put an end to this. And so that's that's how it came to an end. And I find that a lot in some of these earlier centuries that people don't like the money leaving, and that's when they really, you know, begin to object to what's going on.
Yeah, well yeah, and you really you talk about that. There was certainly a lot of witnesses who never contacted any kind of authorities. And the other part of it was that some of the characteristics that all killers seemed to share, that not that all killers share the same characteristics, but that this guy really loved to relive the horror of his crimes the details and then attribute to his lenient parents were to blame again another, yeah, not a sort of characteristic.
That was a good way those lenient parents were to blame. Well, you know, the thing is, if you're a psychopath, you always look outside yourself to blame anybody and everybody. So that's not surprise, but it's kind of interesting that back there, you know, centuries ago, we have somebody you know, blaming mom essentially or dad. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And you say that a significant forensic development happened in seventeen sixty four basically, and then in the book was written there was translated essays on Crime and punishment. Tell us a little bit why or what was the development and why do you think was so significant.
Seventeen I did not memorize of a date to this book, but I can tell me what you'd refer into criminology.
Basically, there was a posthumous reversal of a verdict, so somebody was actually doing again, you know, forensic investigation here. So the murder, it was originally murder, but through examination it was determined with suicide. And at the same time, who.
Named the name of the person. I didn't. I didn't memorize everybody's dates.
I don't have the name. Sorry, I don't have the name either. Aw, she'll know that name.
Those I know the name. I don't know all the dates of everything. I know that during eighteen hundred's criminology was taking over, as well as some of the early medical developments in terms of using autopsies, but not a lot was going on. They were, you know, they were looking for arsenic they were trying to find a way to detect arsenic in the body. But at this point I think that's that's even too early for the arsenic detection. Aside from.
You were talking about Italy and France, and there was some development in both those countries. Again, the book about criminology was, you know, the Psychological Analysis Analysis of Criminal Behavior. Criminology was basically born around that time because of the work that was translated basically from an author in Italy and it was translated in English, so essays on crime
and punishment. At the same time, you talk about how science obviously was replacing religion as the dominant force politically in society, not.
Easily, not easily. That's the whole point is that they we are getting a number of people who believe in science or a religion, but they are you know, being imprisoned over it or losing their lives over it. And so it's quite a struggle through the eighteenth and into the nineteenth century to get attention on science. But even as science was gaining respect, the courts were not accepting it. So, you know, the religious step aside. The courts did not
want to change their traditions. And it really took some of the pioneers like Lacasania, a pathologist in France, to find sensational cases to attach themselves to so that the publick would hear about it. Because you know, the public they loved these stories the way they watch to see SI today. They would read about all these criminal stories, and so as they would read about some input that, you know, some area of science added to the mix, they would pressure the courts to have more of that.
And I thought that was pretty innovative in the nineteenth century.
Yes, absolutely, and there was the separate sort of innovations, but obviously no one could obviously put all those things together and turn it into some kind of science and something that could be trainable. But there was little things happening, like early recognition of fingerprints and that.
But even if that was messy because you had all these people sort of vying for I'm the one who discovered this, and they didn't have a good system. Also, the guy who's doing the measurements, Bertillon, you know, he had his in place where if he just take eleven or thirteen separate measurements of somebody, no two people are
going to have the exact same measurements. And that he, you know, had calculated through all these anthropological calculations to be a science and he had managed to get not only get this into the French legal system, but it spread through Europe and into America and as fingerprints, you know, it was and it was a difficult system because not very many people could measure some of these offenders as carefully as bertillone did. And also they didn't want to.
First of all, they didn't want to bother because it was because the offenders would struggle and kick, and you know, it wasn't easy to do. But then keeping the card files was just an enormous job. And then looking through the card files to see who had recintivated was another enormous job. You didn't have computers of any kind, and so as fingerprints began and to come into use, obviously this was a much more compact way of looking at stuff.
But they had to prove themselves. I mean, this is no easy thing to replace d'artionage or antipometry as it is called. It was no easy thing to replace it because you know, they already had taken great expense and great effort to put it into place. And now that you know, you want us to kick out our whole system and replace it with fingerprints. That's hard. That's really hard to get people to do, right.
But there is always those same sort of not the same sort of but there's interesting parallels with resistance with the FBI and its criminal profiling definitely, you know, controversy early on with DNA and then obviously developed with landslide.
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Plus moves with DNA and and then fiber hair and fiber well, I know that.
We have on today. If we're going to talk about forensics. There's this whole report in two thousand and nine that came out to basically say, you know what, there's an awful lot of areas calling them those forensic science that are not science.
They are not.
Proven, and yet they're going into court and making jury's think they have the aura of science and they're not and they don't. And boy are we ever having a lot of resistance in those disciplines because they want, they want to be part of the frame of forensic science, but they don't have, you know, the time of resources to go about doing all the testing and controlled groups
and all of that. You know, very few things in forensic science actually are DNA is one, toxicologies and others of forensic chemistry, forensic biology, but fiber analysis, hair analysis, these things have been identified as junk science in some cases, and odontology has put innocent people into prisons, handwriting analysis, these things have not been proven to be scientific. And so we're still getting resistance because they want to be included under the umbrella forensic science.
And you also too, when you get psychiatric I mean, you don't have it so much in the US, but we have a completely different system here in Canada. What will be accepted in terms of psychiatric or insanity defenses, and some really well I can't even say liberal, it's just it's incredible defenses. That's all I can say that. Again, you can't say that's science.
I would say it's science. I know they like to say behavioral science, but no it's not. It is not. Its clinical opinion and it was not the scientific method behind it. So personally, I have a hard time. I'm watching, you know, the Joey Arias trial right now as a talk kid that PTSD like, oh please, yeah, there's no
science behind that testing, and so yeah, you won't. Although I'm in forensic psychology, you'll never get me to say that's a science except for a few areas like eyewitness memory things like that that really have gone through scientific testing. But clinical opinion no.
Yeah, and then they're learning to now the false confession too, and they can almost look at cases and go wow that this could be a good example of that because of you know, and yeah, so we won't. We won't dwell on that too much anyway. You do include some very very interesting sort of the rise of the serial killer phenomena in the US, and you talk about two brothers in particular, and then there's a story soon after that. We this just blew my mind. I really, it was
just such an incredible story. I thought I was reading a fictional horror book. But Makai Wiley Harp, Yeah, the Harp brothers, yea, these fascinating characters.
Yeah, they are America's first serial killer on record. Again, I'm always gonna qualify it as that because we there may certainly be people that we don't have records about. But they are an interesting group or you know, in that group. But you know, they they kidnapped women to make them into their wives, They killed their own children, and they killed you know, right and left, and then they got separated. One of them, you know, was captured and killed and then the other one finally was as well.
They just were kind of wild people who did what they wanted. And and there's a team that's that's really a team killer situation where we have of a team chemistry going on where they feel perfectly licensed basically to do whatever they're doing because the other person things is acceptable too. So, yeah, those two are interesting and they're not well known. A lot of people make the statement that HH Holmes, for example, almost a century later, is
America's first serial killer, but no, he's not. They are right, you know.
It was interesting too, as you say that unlike the serial killer today it sticks to sort of one m O or one signature. These guys were all over the place. They're victims, no victimology, typology. These guys kill that, like you say, almost that, random relatives, anyone, strangers, babies. What I found was really fascinating And maybe you can tell me, because I just can't remember which serial killer. I thought this was a similarity from a you know, a recent
serial killer. These guys put stones inside the abdomens of their victims to dump them in the rivers.
We have.
Scary Ridgeway, Green River killer did that as well as an Oregon killer. Uh brutos also would wait, would wait people down in the river. There's another guy who did that, but yeah, the Green River Gary Ridgeway.
Yeah. But like you said with this, with this killer, they just didn't stick to any These two, this duo didn't stick to any kind of m O or signature. They just they would kill people in a variety of ways, with a variety of weapons and for a variety of reasons.
Well, you know, one of the things that when I teach a course on extreme offenders, and we'd spent a good eight weeks and serial killers, and I start out with the myths, the myths, the twenty myths out there of serial murder, one of which is they always stick to the same m O, or they always use the same weapon, or they have a victim type. These are myths that we get from fiction, and so and so people are surprised to hear about some of the Hout brothers who sort of would kill any which way with
whatever was handy and didn't matter. They had no victim type. Particularly, they're surprised to hear that. And yet we do have quite a few killers like that, quite a few. They'll do what works, that's the point. If they want to kill, they'll use whatever method they want to and they're not going to stop. And wonder am I fitting the textbook definition?
Yeah? Absolutely. Now, at the same time you talk about just a little bit around eighteen hundred was the newly formed US Marshals. Just before that, maybe thirteen years or so, well, pardon me, eighteen nineteen, the British system of justice was set up, and then what it was. This is the most amazing story. And I mean I thought I read almost everything was unbelievable. This is the case of doctor Lolori's Yeah, just touching about me and is fascinating rich.
The rich couple and the fascinating They had some they kept slaves, as was the custom at the time, but a fire broke out in their home. And please tell us about how the victims were.
They were what we call experimenters. We have a number of healthcare seria killers like this. They would of course they because they were the masters and they owned the slaves. They could do whatever they wanted. They had some medical background, and so they were experimenting on these rushed people, doing things like breaking their bones and having them heal at awkward angles, chaining them up, starving them, burning them, doing all kinds of stuff to them to just see what
they could get. And this was and this is you know, this is a house that's in the midst of the French quarters, very very visible. But they felt they had this thing that I call narcissistic immunity, the sense that you can't catch me. I can do whatever I want to and there's nothing to do about it. And the fact is they did get away with it because they
got away. But when the fire broke out, you know, the firefighters found these people in cages or see one person that was sort of like walking around like a crab because all the bones were broken and reset in odd ways. And yeah, it's a really disgusting story.
Yeah, the thing I found was just fascinating at that time. This is eighteen thirty four. They had turned a man surgically into a woman.
Yeah, right in.
Eighteen thirty four. And again you had the human crab where they were and it was all kinds of dissection mutilation.
Then, yeah, yes it was.
It was a real chamber of horrors. Incredible again, and other story that, you know, that's the first I've ever heard, and that that's an amazing tale. Who needs horror?
I you know, I don't read fiction much anymore because I get plenty of that in just reading these stories. Yeah.
I used to read horror when I was young, and I just just graduate to this stuff, which is true horror. That's all nice.
I used to write horror stories. I don't need to anymore.
Yeah, it's pretty horrifying. When I was reading that, I was going, WHOA, this is this is a story for sure. Now you you talk about a serendipitous discovery by a newspaper manager of a near failing US newspaper was about to shift the popular popular perception about murder and its investigation, and this is the New York Herald and James Gordon Bennett what did he do? And tell us a little bit about yellow journalism and how did he how did he capitalize on maybe what we're talking about right now.
Well, just you know, his newspaper wasn't he was trying to get this startup newspaper going and wasn't selling, and he heard about a murder in a local brothel and he just went He went to the site. He interviewed people that that hadn't been done before, and began to put these these sort of erotic details on the front pages in ways that had never been done before. And while did that sell, he learned very quickly what tabloid
journalists that's all about. By talking about you know, you have the beautiful but fallen a woman, you know, they and they created stories about these people, whether they were true or not, didn't matter what they created these these things that entertained the public. And the alleged offender was a fairly well off guy. So you have the handsome guy who who's responsible for murdering the fallen pretty woman, you know, unless she's the vile evil, you know, prostitute,
and and he's he's a victim of her. He so dependent on what side you were taken because of the newspapers then got into the act and they would take a different side. And you know, so that became just huge public news and forced journalists from other cities to come to New York and cover it. Otherwise their put their papers weren't going to tell So this really became the start of of what we see today really in all this tabloid journalism.
Yeah, and he really was super successful with this too. He couldn't even keep up and it really did it.
Helen Jewett was the prostitutes name. The murder of Helen Jewett was quite an amazing story. But it was his his boldness of just saying, you know, I'm going over to the scene. They got him in, they let him see her. He described it just right so that they would have would have this kind of allure to it. And then he interviewed the woman who around the brothel. Never had that kind of thing had not been done before.
So he put himself right in the middle of the story as a journalist, as an investigative journalist.
Yes, and he seemed to ask every conceivable question. But he also did the very first what I guess the equivalent of what a crime scene photo would have done is all the details that those people were curious about, what did the body look like? And it had and he understood the public was interested in that. I guess he said, hey, I'm interested in the public will be interested. Well, we got to lose, and he was right, and it
still dictates today in most successful papers. Anyway. I mean, I think what's interesting too when you can go back two hundred three hundred years if you think people are deviant now, it was amazing. It was amazing the savagery years ago, even two hundred, three hundred and five hundred, all throughout history. But also the audience, the appetite for people getting retribution was incredible.
Definitely, and you know, people didn't want to act as if they were actually reading this stuff, but of course, you know, everybody was. It just became you had to know, you had to know so you could talk about it, and then you had to go to court, and so the whole trial became a big sensation.
Yes, absolutely, Now poison seems to be the method that women enact murder, but it also again, I've read this before, but you again re really reinforced this that people don't think women are so capable of murder as maybe men. But you just spell that with some very very good examples like Marianne Cotton. Maybe tell us a little bit about a narcissistic psychopath. Mari Anne Cotton.
Well, I mean, first of all, a dead victim is as dead as any other, no matter whether they're shot or poisoned, they're stabbed, or as sure, So that's just as violent and violent as anything else. Women are pretty much, i'd have to say, smarter about it because they get away with Those who are serial killers generally go for longer payers than men do and get away with it because they're quieter killers. Now, a predator is going to choose victims for all of which they can have control.
So you know, five 't two one hundred pounds. Woman is not going to choose a great, big guy that she's going to choose children. She's going to choose other women, you know, whatever it is, family members, and she'll use the weapon that she can get hold of and tip.
For for many centuries, the best weapon for women was poisoned because that's what they used for you know, and to clear out the rats or clean their houses, or you know, go down to the drug store and get it in ways that they weren't able to purchase other types of weapons. So we really don't know that women gravitate to poison necessarily so much is that that was just the most practical tool for them. But we absolutely have women who will pick up a gun and shoot.
We've had one very overweight women rolled on her kids. We've had them use chain saws and ice picks and knives. Of course, they certainly will will kill with other means if that's what they're inclined to do, and we have lots of lots of examples of that. Now do they kill for sexual purposes, well, we have some. We have a few cases where they do, and so they actually got addicted sexually to murder. But more often they're killing for status improvement or self enrichment. So Mary on Cotton,
for example, was, as they say, an attractive woman. When I see pictures of her, I don't think so, but you know, I'm a woman, so maybe I don't know anyway, So she's an attractive woman who you know, got herself. Mary got kids. She would during these days in England in the middle of the nineteenth century, you can ensure you know, family members. So she figured out pretty pretty quickly you wanted to make some money, it's sure people
empoison them. So she would see, you know, somebody of higher status and figure, you know, I got to get rid of this family in order to get that guy. So she'd you know, go through her children and husbands and get rid of them, move on to the next one, get rid of and then if she sees yet another way to prove her status, she'd move on to the next.
Andi She killed about twenty people. And again this is an interesting one is when she killed the neighbor's pigs that somebody said, wait a minute here, oh, this is not gonna happen. But also she had killed a boy who was I can't remember, like a step son or something, and the doctor got suspicious about that one, and he's the one who actually did an autopsy and found the arsenic. But even at that, even so, they used arsenic in the wallpapers and in hair dressing and things like that.
So she did have a pretty active defense in terms of, well, how do you know these people didn't just lick the wallpaper like that, because they did not have very precise equipment, especially among the lower classes, which she was a member of. They didn't have very size ways of measuring these things, nor much inclination to do so. So she got away with it for quite a long time, but she was hanged in the end.
Yes, you include another story about the Benders, and we won't go through this because we would, you know, be about a five hour program. But you talk about the benders and part of their part of their reason to kill was theft, and they would steal their victims' money and then hit him with sledgehammer and throw them in
a hold. And again, it's very interesting to me when you when you understand when you see the psychopathic killer mind, and then you realize that some of sometimes they have a partner, a wife, a girlfriend, or a daughter or a friend, or there's two or three people David Parker Ray, you know, three two or three people acting on his behalf even scarier, you know, very very scary one.
Typically you have if you have families killing together, that's typically that's stub and Richmond. But someone like David Parker Ray was able to too because he was a sadist and he was able to acquire I don't know if I call him disciples, but in a way they were sort of a little murder cult, not because they didn't all participate in everything, but he did manage to acquire people around him who would help him get victims and
help him torture people. I actually saw some of his torture videos, and I'm going to tell you that strong stuff. It was very hard to watch, very hard.
Well it's hard to read. Yeah, it's even hard to read, so I can't even imagine seeing it. Yeah, some stuff I don't want.
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Really want to visualize it?
Oh no, and I I've seen you know, because of the position I'm in, I guess I do get to see some of these things. And I recently saw Luca Magnata. Here's a Canadian for you, Luca Megan.
Yeah, I was gonna mention that.
Holy cow, that is one disgusting tape that he made of killing and this member in his roommate. I mean, it's just and it's too music, of course, and as he's carving him up, and I don't know if he did eat pieces, but certainly pretended to. That was that was very hard to watch, very hard because it's quite graphic.
Yeah, yeah, I think what's happening And I've said it on the program with another guest when we were discussing sort of the new killer phenomena, I don't think people have time to do forty nine or seventy six murders or you know, the numbers are too staggering, you know, and I think, you know, based on and this is
always and we'll get back to this. It will segue back into how society really seems to dictate the the you know, the psychological and sociological attitudes and the environment that's that's pervasive and and it's that that's there that that that shapes the way killers act. And we'll talk about that. But what I want to mention was that
Luca Magnata, we had gentleman in Edmonton that filmed a murder. Yeah, absolutely, and then the killer that I was involved with who wanted to talk and talk and make drawings and become famous. Is that. I think a lot of these, a lot of killers, and I think this is what we'll see, unfortunately, is that people want to get pain, that instant fame and of course the Facebook and the videos and YouTube
and that instant fame. And Luca Magnot is the perfect example of a guy that was cultivating his fame and planning.
Talk about fantasy, you know, lead again. Another thing in your book you talk about a big issue is the fantasy turning to murder, violent fantasy leading to So let's let's take this what we were just talking about and talk about how after you know, examples of the vendors and the and the poisonings and then the you know, all the way back from Rome, how does the modern serial killer evolve and why and what are the conditions in society that sort of shape that killer.
Well, there's no profile of a serial killer there's no I mean, there's a lot of diversity in terms of the developmental factors. There isn't any one thing that makes somebody into serial killer. Quite a few, I'd say the majority are first of all psychopathic, and if we as we're finding out that certainly seems to be implicated with brain development in terms of very poor development in the moral centers, the decision making centers. So that's one thing.
But you know, quite a few have head injuries, not all of them, but if head injuries hit a certain part of the brain where now they have some kind of discontrol over their compulsions, especially violent compulsions, that could be part of it. But we have a lot of different motivations for why people commit serial murder. It isn't isn't just sexually compelled. It's as we've already talked about, you know, greed and self enrichment, power over others. Anger.
Sometimes people kill for no particular reason at all, just they just you know, I felt like it today, whatever. So first you have to look at what's the motive. Some people killed just because they want to become serial killers, that's their big aspiration. Bt K. Dennis Raider, was it was that kind of person where he just wanted to be one of the elite serial killers, and so he practiced and he studied and set up the conditions so
that he could become that. So you really have to look at the in a case by case in a way of what is it in their life that is so inspired them or compelled them toward doing something like this. And it's hard to say generically what makes somebody become a serial killer, but it's certainly true that and I think among mass murderers, it's certainly true that today's violence
is choreographed. It's highly choreographed for effect. You go into a movie theater now instead of a mall, you go into an elementary school now instead of a college campus. Do you know what I mean? Because you're trying for shock value as much as you're trying for numbers, and so you're seeing people really choreographing it to get that same going, because it's it's just it's not about the numbers anymore. It's about how shocking you were, how utterly unthinkable your act was.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now do you note any difference in murder, like, say in the twentieth century, when we have all the cases that you know. The FBI and it's criminal profiling pioneering interviewed thirty or thirty six infamous serial killers and the profile.
Thirty six interviews, but only twenty nine or serial killers. And they didn't even interview all of them.
But go ahead, okay. But so this was a small group of people in the they created criminal profiling from those interviews.
I'll say that's not true. They were already profiling, and since they were on the road teaching, they thought, why don't we start interviewing people. Now here's the problem. Some of the people interviewed weren't very articulate, or they were psychotic or something. So they ended up basically interviewing twenty of serial killers twenty nine incarcerated white serial killers who were articulate enough to talk to them. It's not a
very representative sample. It's small, and it's unrepresentative. First of all, no end all males, and had it dependent on where they were at the time, so they didn't pick them according to let's try to get a representation here. But it did begin to found their database, so I give them credit for that. The problem was that they wrote a number of articles off of that small, unrepresentative sample.
And that's where many of our serial killer myths now come from, Like that they're smarter than the average person, and stuff like that, pusey are smarter. You pick the smartest ones you could find to talk to you.
Yeah. The other thing was too, is that you know, black serial killers or people of any other color other than white, weren't represented. And again that's another myth is being you know, dispelled quite easily.
It's quite easy.
And it wasn't the what's it called the triad of.
Oh, that McDonald triad is totally bogus. There is not one piece of research evidence that supports it. I wrote a blog about this and I got like eight thousand hits on it. There's not one. It was proposed again with an unrepresentative sample by a guy named MacDonald, and I think it was nineteen sixty three about the bed wetting, fire setting and cruelty to animals. If these were at somehow or other, these ended up becoming the precursor predictive
qualities of a serial killer. Yeah, that came from I don't know, because that's not at all what McDonald proposed, but because he gave this simple formula. It ended up being subsumed by criminologists who then passed it along as if now we know that people who have these three traits and behaviors are definitely prone to possibly becoming serial codes. But there is not one shred of research that indicates that MacDonald triad is a predictive factor, not one thing.
Well, I found it amazing from the very first time I ever read it. And I've never read any of that information about serial killers. And I've been reading about serial killers for quite a few years now, so I never read any of that history in any I was a young boy. There's a lot of guys doing a lot of things to cats and all kinds of animals, and thank god, we've come a little well, we've come a little ways from there, you know, in general acceptance anyway.
But there would have been a lot of serial killers I would have looked over my shoulder or because same with fires. I mean, some of this stuff is not that deviant, really, yeah, but no, the you know, I wasn't. I was talking about rest of you know, Robert K. Wrestler and John Douglas and some of the stuff they've done. Now, there's been a lot of research and a lot of the development and people have taken off from that starting
point and have still studied. Tell us a few more of the perceived myths or the popular myths about serial killers as well.
There's very few female serial killers. In fact, there are quite a few females, And we talked about low Custer, who's one of our first documented The person with the most victims and record is female. We have quite a few femal killers. Some of the other myths or that they always go they always go for the same type of victim, and that came basically from Bundy, and he even he said, I don't look for girls with their
hair part in the middle. First of all, that was the style of the seventies, the all girls have their hair part of the middle. But if you really look at his victims, it's all over the place. He's got bronze, he's got girls with short hair. I mean that that was a silly myth that grew up around Bundy, that they secretly want to be caught. That's a good one. No, they don't. They want to do what they're doing. That's their addiction. They don't want to be caught. So that's
another one. And the FBI actually put out a document in two thousand and five based on an international serial killer conference that they had. Were they numbered I guess maybe eight eight of these myths that they wanted to put aside a that there's a profile of a serial killer. There is no such thing as profile and the serial killer. So that was one. Trying to think of the ones they said that they are you can tell where the look in their eyes. I hear that one from cops
all the time. No, no, no, you can't. Only in retrospect can you do something like that. You can tell whether they're are that they're always insane. Obviously that's not true. They're most of these psychopathic predators. Or also that they're always psychopaths, That too, is not true, because we definitely have those who have had remorse, who've turned themselves in or committed suicide. We've definitely had those who have not
exhibited psychopathic traits. There. It's not a big percentage, but still they're they're out there that they can't stop, Yes they can. We've had quite a few serial killers stop for a their variety of reasons. So you get but to get this stuff sort of built up in the media, and it's hard for them to let go. And I know whenever I'm interviewed, if there's some series of crimes going on, they catch the person, they always say, does this stick the profile? Like they didn't want to hear
there is no profile against which to fit. And that's I know because I work with I know Wrestler and Douglas and I worked with both of them, and I know people at the FBI, and it just aggravates them that people think there's a profile and a serial killer there isn't.
There's no time to.
People to let go of that.
Well, certainly these myths have been perpetrated, and apart me, perpetuated, like you say, in fiction and nonfiction as well. The CVC was doing a sorry Canadian Broadcasting Corporation was doing a story about a young woman who was suspected and I guess maybe she even confessed to killing some pets. And then they threw out that triad of you know, of predictability on serial killer and they were trying to table some kind of legislation, legislation to keep her incarcerated
over something that she was planning. She was talking about. She wrote a song about what she was going to do, and I went, this is incredible.
The Cannibal cop convicted over his thoughts. It's a very scary president, in my opinion, especially to those of us who write dark things. Very scary.
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean the thing is that there's a there's usually they have enough problems with just direct evidence. So yeah, taking stuff like that and bringing that to a jury, I don't know. Yeah, it's it prejudices a jury by talking about that stuff, and so I think it clouds a decision on an important decision on whether that was a plan and a conspiracy and he taking any steps towards that.
So well, you know, we have all these these TV shows that are getting so incredibly over the top with violence, criminal minds, the following now we have Hannibal starting up so over the top, and then you pick a jury out of people who've been viewing these things or hearing about them. It becomes these verdicts are highly emotional, and who's to blame? And they can't be to blame because you know, we really work them into a frenzy over these monsters and how disgusting and grotesque they are and
how they torture and dismember and cannibalize people. I mean, we're constantly putting that in people's faces because we're searching forever more shocking and jarring and disturbing content with which to entertain them. So you can't really blame juries for saying, you know what, I want to lock these people up.
Yeah. Well, I mean it was deemed admissible of what they're so, I mean the judge felt it was important and enough evidentiary value to bring to a jury, and you know, they follow directions. So so in the end, from your total examination from the very big you know, from the dark ages to the present day, how have killers changed and how have they stayed the same.
Well, they stay the same because they're killing people, and there they're still quite often addicted to it. There's for many, but not all, is a sexual compulsion of fetish. Almost they're still basically doing the same kinds of things shooting, stabbing, choking, asphyxiation, poisoning that they've been doing for sent injuries. They changed though, with the changes in social pressures and expectations, so they'll
just the manifest differently. They do respond to cultures. For example, there was a very good study comparing Asian serial killers in Japan against United States Seria killers in Asia far more, far greater percentage were motivated by greed and financial gain as opposed to more sexually oriented and compelled killers in the United States. Not a surprise when you look at
the values of those two cultures. In South Africa, it was interesting we had a whole flew of serial killers all of a sudden claiming multiple personality one after another after another. That's got to be a culture open that. It can't be that, you know, they all have multiple personality disorder. And it was very directly after we had a whole flew of them doing it in the United States. So culture does certainly influence the form in which it's
going to take. But nevertheless, the idea of power over other people, of killing other people for self centered reasons remains the same.
Do you think that serial killers, whether just by the definition or or we'll say multiple killers, people who are killed more than one or two or three people, do you think they've really essentially other than these motivations more maybe more sexual and like say, shocking, Have they changed that much in terms of you know, if you have the ability to kill three or twenty or fifteen. Is still the basic mentality to cap ability of people to be able to do this savagery? Is that still the same?
The killer is still the same.
I think so, because the way they develop is really is really the key and how much freedom do they have to exercise this thing? For example, take his name, just escape Me, a black serial killer in Ohio who had this house near a meat pay so you know the smells. Nobody really understood that he had all these bodies in his house. I think he had something at eleven or so, and he kept just getting away with it because nobody was really checking. It's low income, you know,
a low income area, many of them are prostitutes. Nobody was going after it. So there he was kind of getting pretty with nobody really checking into him, despite the fact that there were complaints. And you know, really it really depends on what's their circumstance with their situation, and you know, for how long do they want to keep doing it? How much risk are they taking If they stay low risk, like it's all in my house and nobody's coming in my house, it's pretty low risk. If
you're going into other people's houses, pretty high risk. So really it's very hard to talk generically about serial killers for me, because I've looked at you know, well over a thousand cases, and there's a lot more diversity among serial killers than there is, say for mass murderers, who have a very common type of temperament. But you don't find that among serial killers, not by a long shot. I mean, we have the youngest serial code that I've heard of is eight years old. I've heard of three,
two boys and a girl who's ten. That's pretty young. So how do they get that way? Well, each has his or her own story. We have serial killers up in their fifties and sixties. Most aren't that old, but those that are, you know, who are they? Why do they start so late? Or how they end up getting away with it for so long? You know, so they're a like let's look at Dennis Rader. He starts with a family of four. He starts with a family of four and then you know, then it's one at a
time after that. That's very unusual.
Well, those are characteristics that I can understand. It would that would be prone to have some sort of variety. And like you say, when you read about you know, Ramerez or Gacy or Bundy, all these people come from a different variety of backgrounds as well.
They do and are definitely motivated by different things.
But can you say if you saw if you said, this is the background of this person, and you didn't know the results, you just okay, here's the background of this person. Here's the background of this person, background of this person. Any of these serial killers I can say, I.
Can say, well, you don't want to do a prospective profiling, but you can definitely do a probability analysis on if you had three people and their case histories. You could say, of these three, I can tell you that one is more likely than the other two to be a serial killer. But I would still say, but I don't know that this person will become a serial killer. I couldn't tell
you that. I can only tell you that we would find this cluster traits and behaviors more often in serial killers than we do these other clusters of traits and behaviors. That's about all I can do is a probability analysis.
And what would be those clusters of behaviors and traits that you would say, definitely, you know this is a recipe.
For disaster here, Well, I think humiliation in youth, especially for males, coupled with anger, head injuries, psychopathy acting out that is not disciplined, so they feel like they can get away with it, and they developed the sense of narcissistic community. Those are some of the things. And we definitely see animal cruelty, but not the dead wedding and all that. We definitely see animal cruelty or cruelty to other children, picking out other children, trying to bully people.
If I saw clusts of behaviors like that. But you know, what we really do see in what we call the fledgling psychopath is called callous disregard and ADHD. If you get both together, hyperactivity tension deficit and callous disregard, that those appear to be part of what it takes to become an adult psychopath. Now that's just the psychopath part.
Most psychopaths are not criminals, killers, or serial killers. But if you do have the psychopathy trades already there, and you have a person who's acting out violently or sadistically, or lying easily or blaming others or you know, things like that, and has that sort of anger simmering anger, resentment, humiliation factor. I always say to my students. Never underestimate the effect of humiliation because that simmers in people, and when they get a chance to pay back, he'll do it,
They will do it. So humiliation is a big, big deal, but head injuries as well. And so I'd have to say if I saw a lot of that going on in a person that doesn't make that doesn't mean they'll become a serial killer. But I think that you can say that that's the kind of person you'd want to watch and certainly do inactive interventions with.
I wouldn't take issue, but I just found it interesting what you said about the psychopaths because I I just have a little bit of an issue with the determination that you know, you know your boss can be a psychopath. Again, I hate to beat up on the show.
I agree with you. I hate these studies. They're so unscientific, they're so oh, I hate them. Yeah, you can tell them psychopath by their Twitter tweet or whatever. Really well, I think I agree with you.
I think there's a danger though in Robert Hare saying that listen, not only are psychopaths again we change the word to sociopath again. It sounds nicer, but psychopath I think has to be I think there has to be something, some term reserved for these kinds of people. Now, if my boss is a psychopathic, then I have to say, Okay, this is a psychopathic killer. But we've already taken and rendered that words sort of somewhat less dangerous because my boss.
Psychopaths are not killers, They're not even criminals.
I could say that, I could see that. But at the same time, I think there's a danger in diminishing or at least not having a term for these people that can are psychopathic killers. I think it's I think it's also a danger when you when people see a person who happens to be schizophrenic, who is charged with this atrocious murder on a Greyhound bus, and then and then, and then you're gonna walk into a room and say, hey, by the way, I'm schizophrenic, you know.
Instead of that becomes that becomes part of you know, the media is implicated in that they often will will spread these stories without true understanding of the conditions. You're not more probe to be violent if you have schizophrenia, unless you have a certain brand of paranoid schizophrenia, and in that case, it's more preemptive violence. Self defense than it. There's anything else, but the media doesn't teach us that stuff, so that becomes an issue. And now we have such
a flood of crap on about psychopaths. It's hard to know how to make your way through all of it because the studies are terrible. They're headline grabbing studies based on you know, ten people, things like that. It's very hard to make your way through it and to know really what it means. And then of course you get these programs where the psychopath is is just is just the worst, most evil person you can image. So these do become issues, but there's there's little doubt from the research.
And when I was talking about the fledgling psychopath, I wasn't even talking about Hair's research. There's little doubt from the research that psychopaths definitely have more if they are criminals, they have more criminal diversity, and they do recitibate more
often than other people. So that's why I say, if, because we do have that research, you can do a probability analysis on you know, if you have the potential the fledgling psychopathic behaviors in place, and also this violent temperament and narcissistic community, you have certainly a person who needs intervention. That that's a person who is certainly on the road to doing what they want to do for their own self gratification, no matter what it might cost
somebody else. That doesn't mean they'll become a serial killer, but the likelihood of that is greater than for somebody who's just an ordinary person.
Now, what do you see as the sort of the the next step in terms of learning something from these particular type of killers. I know that you, yourself and all kinds of really dedicated people are doing as much research as you can tackling some of this information from all kinds of angles and perspectives and years and years
of dedicated research like yourself. Tell us what you see in terms of what would be the next step in terms of trying to understand these unique Again you say they don't share any characteristics, But what's the next step in trying to understand the serial killer mindset, the psychology behind these people.
The neuropsychologies, what's the next step? Already they're doing the brain scans, not just they're doing brain skins and secopath they're doing brain skins on violent people. So they have to add one more thing. And that's the case history. You can't at this time, you can't correlate differences in the brain with you know, violent behavior. We know that certain things are showing up, and the more brain scans we get to differentiate the violent brain, the better we're
going to be. But we have to have the case history going along with that, and the case history takes a much longer time than sticking somebody in an MRI machine. You can do thousands of brain scans and you're not going to be able to catch up with all the details you need developmentally to really try to understand how does that what we see in that brain figure into the person's life story. So that's pretty intensive research. But certainly someone like Kent Kiel, you know who's doing that
out in New Mexico, he understands. He's made some statements which I think he's not really quite got the support to make, but he certainly understands that you can't just take correlation and make that into causation. And that while would be great if we had ten thousand brain scans of psychopaths, that would be even greater if we had we could match these the developmentally, these brain scans against the life story, the details of the person's life, and that's going to be a lot of work.
And it's hard sometimes to go backwards with people passing away, So you have to take some information from sometimes these killers, which are notorious liars. No mixture of lies, yeah, a mixture of lies and truth, but a fair amount of lies too are in there.
Some of the good studies I've seen are the the adolescents who you know, I just mentioned the fledgling psychopaths. So some of there's there's a few places. There's one in Wisconsin where they're doing very intensive work with kids who are at risk becoming becoming adult psychopathic offenders, and they're finding that some of the interventions they're doing are
in fact dropping the recidivism rate. Now, if you take you take that kind of work and then match it neurologically, you know, with the with the brain scans and also with the you know what, how do the kid get to this point because now so he's sixteen, he hasn't had so many years to develop. We can do a lot more with that than we can with somebody who's forty six. So if you if you got some really focused research on people of you know, in that sort
of clientele. I think that that would be a pretty good start to help us know how to intervene and you know, really really try to prevent. I don't know that you can prevent psychopathy, especially if it turns out that it really is a brain disorder, but you might be able to shift the behaviors into something a little more pro social than currently we seem. But I don't know, you know, I'm just I'm really speculating because we just
don't know. But we've we've we've seen enough to know that cosmative behavioral therapy is probably not the only thing we're going to be able to do. Unlet's we come up with some kind of medication to rebalance the brain or create more gray matter in areas that are deficient or something like that.
Oh, don't give pharmaceutical companies any ideas on marketing.
They're already got the ideas. I'm not.
Figuring this stuff out.
You know.
But I know what you mean, because we are becoming a an entire culture of drug addicted people thanks to every everybody being diagnosed with some kind of something or other that needs to be fixed with drugs. And I
don't I don't mean it to sound like that. But if we do find let's say, let's just say we find in violent, in psychopathic people who are prone to violence, we find an area of the brain that is deficient in gray matters, it's thin or it's you know whatever, and we find some way to rebuild that and lo and behold their behavior changes. Wouldn't that be amazing? I think that's not far away.
Well, you're pretty optimistic. I'll tell you what's going on. If you don't, I don't know if you're aware of this. But the Vincent Lee, the Greyhound bus, schizophrenic shiller, that person he's incarcerated for three years, and he is on escorted passes now into the community. Man and he will yeh escorted passes with unarmed guards walking in the Community's going to.
Take a responsibility for making sure you stay a medication?
Well, who I always wonder If they have medication that can render that person harmless, then why is anybody in an institution. I don't I don't understand how this medication wouldn't work on far less severe cases stop.
Taking their medication because they have no accountability and nobody is there making sure they do it. That is a lot of it right there.
This person here. What I've said is that they're taking because they said he's responding to this medication so wonderfully that this person would likely be out in five years into the community and there's no other charges. Not once you've been deemed insane at trial, it's not you're you're never retroy it again. So if you go from the institution out and what they're doing now is proving his his his ability not to rea his harmlessness by taking
them out in the community and for fresh air. But they're turning them into I think there's a danger because there are other again less clear cut, far less clear cut case of insanity. I'm not saying this person isn't insane. I'm saying other cases that you would not consider insanity are being pushed through the courts as well. And again that if the person is temporarily insane, well then we'll just need medication temporarily for a few months and then
reassess them. And so I think it's a there's a danger in that the medication can work in all cases, don't I don't know, And we have a.
Great deal of ignorance about how it works, and we have a lot of resistance to our communities to have to pay for them. You know, our whole deinstitutionalization movement in this country is very political. It's not about caring for people. Well, it's not about compassion. It's not about awareness and being intelligent about the mentally ill. It's why we get you know, crazy people going into movie theaters
and shooting, shooting us. We want to save money. We'd rather save money, and that's called the collateral damage of it. But I know, talking politics, I hate talking politics. Let's talk about serio killers are nothing.
Well, the mettal ill are are down the list on priority. And what we did here is we deinstitutionalized too. And now now you see them in the soup kitchens and wandering the streets.
It's horrible. We're not going to go backwards. We're not going to take care of them, and that's the horrible part of it. So yeah, something like that's going to be able to get out and and that's the way it is.
Mm hmm. But that's yeah, there's not there's not much analysis of that. And like I'm I'm totally interested in separating the insane from the evil. And but that's it. I'm not so confident that that psychiatry, through the piaty that definitely not yeah, disturbing you like what you have in America is a total resistance even if the person's bald face crazy, to say, yes, that person's insane. It almost seems a jury and the courts and the city, it doesn't matter, doesn't.
Matter that they they're not. But for some reason, by law, they're not allowed to know what will happen when they deliver them. When they actually say somebody is not guilty by reason of insanity, they're not allowed to know what will happen, which is bizarre because then they are scared. Well, we're not allowed to know. Maybe they'll just get out
in two months or something like that. And so we have a very strange court system regarding insanity, a very strange system, and there are a number of people who should have been found not guilty by reason of insanity who weren't, mostly because there's just so much ignorance about what it is, and people don't want to know, they don't want to be educated.
It's just it's just responding to fear. And again, you know, the media doesn't do any justice most times in terms of analysis, it's headlines and so yeah, it's it's a it's a confluence of events that that keep continuing, you know, so that there's justice seems to be less. I mean, we were losing sight of justice in itself with a lot of the cases where you know, the wrongfully convicted a person not deemed insane. Uh, you know, circumstantial elevenence
like the Casey Anthony case. It just you just shake.
Your head, wow, you know that was that was just simply mismanaged from the start, as though, I have to say, and we'll see what happens with Jody Arius. I mean, that's that's been an interesting case.
Yeah, I'm not so much so up on it, but I've got a lot of notices about it, like I have very much.
Like Anthony, lots of manipulation and it's an Arizona jury though they're a little different than Floriday'll see.
Yeah, very very interesting. Well, Catherine, I want to thank you very much for this fascinating interview and for your fascinating book, The Human Predator, Historical Chronicle of Serial Murder and Forensic Investigation. It's been very very enjoyable discussing this with you, and thank you very much for coming on the program.
H you welcome. Was it was fun to talk with you well.
Thank you very much and hopefully we can talk again sometimes. Okay, great, have a good have a good night. All right, thanks, thank you, thank you,