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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime. History and the authors that have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening, November eighteenth, nineteen seventy eight was a tragically unprecedented day in US history that will forever be woven into the fabric of this country. It is the day that leader of People's Temple, James Warren Jones, ordered the assassination of US Congressman Leo J. Ryan and others at the Port Katuma airstrip in South America, then led his congregation on what Guyana's police chief Skip Roberts testified was
a mass suicide. Decades later, however, the depth of this story is still unknown, and many scholars and former members who have continued their exploration of the incident have found that there is still plenty of evidence as well as plenty of sinister connections that contradict the official version of
this story. Jonestown, Don't Drink the kool Aid is the chronological story of the rise and fall of People's Temple and its leader Jim Jones, from his early years in Indianapolis and California to the tragic ending in the jungle of South America that claimed the lives of nine hundred
and eighteen Americans. Jonestown Don't Drink the kool Aid comprehensibly details the many links that Jones than his compound had with the CIA and their m culture experiments, through a comprehensive analysis of Jones' life, People's Temple, and the investigation
in the aftermath of the mass murder suicides. This book is designed to be the quintessential marking piece that will reintroduce this story to society and serve as a reminder of the infamous matter that hung in the pavilion in Jonestown. Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. The book that we're featuring this evening is Jonestown Don't Drink the kool Aid, The complete story behind the mysterious Jim Jones and his exodus to Guienna, with my special
guest journalist and author Will Survive. Welcome to the program, and thank you for greeting this interview Will Survive.
Hi, Dad, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it look forward to this absolute.
This is a great show. I love your show, Thank you very much. This is one of the more incredible moments in American and world history. And if people thought they knew everything about this, this is the book that would tell them otherwise. So let's again one of my questions. It seems to be important. That's why I always ask it, without giving anything away, how did you come to write this book? Jonestown, don't drink the kool aid?
Well, you know, I first started researching the contents and the story, you know, many years ago, probably maybe fifteen years ago, before I was a writer. You know. Obviously I was, you know, well aware of the of the story, and when I was in school, I did a book report on it, and I just found that the official version of the story was left a lot to be desired.
I did not, you know, I always feel that when you look at something and there are questions, especially you know, when it comes to news sources or government agencies that you know you are, the mind suddenly tries to or
subconsciously tries to fill those gaps. And I came across a few different writings that kind of opened my eyes a little bit from mister Hogan and John Judge where they imposed the question and actually, you know, put forth some evidence that there might be some CIA connections involved. So I decided to look a little further into the story. And when I began writing, you know, I got my bachelor's degree in criminal justice with a concentration of forensic science,
and I began writing these types of stories. This was ideally one of the stories that I wanted to get into a little more. So you know, from there it just kind of steamrolled and snowballed into me writing the story. It wasn't a planned thing from the beginning.
Great, Now, let's go back to the beginnings of this incredible story of this man, James Warren Jones, and go back to his parents, Linetta and James Jones. You take us right back to this before his birth, before James Warren Jones was born, which was May nineteen thirty one. But take us back to his early life and maybe even before Creed, Indiana. So take us back before they settled in this area, and a little bit about Lynetta and James Jones, and James Jones in his early life.
Well, his parents came from the right out of the Great depression and had you know, little Jimmy as I call him, in the beginning. They had him, you know, right out of that period. So obviously, you know, you you can kind of just tell right from there, you know, what type of people they were. They were survivors. They you know, they were struggling, just like you know everyone else in America, especially in the dust Bowl area. And
you know they were scrappers. And James uh sor you know, had some problems and some injuries from you know being the military, uh and and and on his uh and on his job. So Lynetta really became the breadwinner in the family. And you know, back in those days that was the novelty because women were not uh the bread winners, you know, so much. So she became she was very,
very tough. She always taught Jimmy to to be try to be self sufficient, self reliant, and and you know it was it was, I believe, out of that where he you know, became this person where he took on this persona of of being a leader. And she actually pushed him to become a leader instead of a follower. And and and you know, in essence run of businesses on his own instead of working for people, and you know, they just were they were.
Go ahead.
Sorry, no, no, I'd say that. I mean, really, that's that's that's the essence of of I think, you know what what he was his childhood was about. As far as from his parents' perspective.
It's interesting that you write that at that time, and again they were considered an odd family. The father did a little bit of work, but he'd been, like you said, injured in the War of Mustard Gas, so he did a little bit of work. She really did taking bringing all the money into the household, but they also had a They didn't sleep together, the parents. And one I thought was most interesting too, is that they didn't go to church. They didn't attend church.
Right, So yeah, and that's another thing from from back then that was really odd because you know, most people were very religious. You know, it's I mean, it's hard, I guess for a young person to understand that, but I mean in America in those days, you know, religion was pervasive and most if you were not into religion, you didn't go to church or you didn't practice in some way, you really were an outcast in the community. In any community you were in.
Now you talk about in the book You Chronicle that at four years old he meets a pretty important figure and it's an important story to again, I guess, explain the early genesis or the early metamorphosis of James Jones. So at four years old, you say, meets his friend Donald Friedman, and he also meets this missus Myrtle Kennedy and she becomes a spiritual advisor. So tell us at four years old, again, it's to explain the time, how this woman, what her influence is really on James Jones,
and what does his mother have to say. So tell us a little bit about this missus Myrtle Kennedy, the spiritual advisor.
Well, missus Kennedy would uh you know, would would kind of took on the role of looking after him because you know, James, Jimmy's father was was I mean really just kind of indifferent, uh, you know, sick and at the VA hospital a lot or at the V a spot where you know they hung out and his mother
was working. So Jimmy was often seen running around the neighborhood by himself, getting you know, possibly into trouble, almost getting hit by a train, and there was a lot of instances where you know, she would see him, and she felt that she would take him him under her wing, so she did so. And she happened to be a very religious person, so she also started taking him to church. And I you know, from everything I've read, Lynetta was not, you know, particularly happy about it, but she really, i
mean had no choice today. They were not good friends, her and Missus Kennedy, but I'm sure for her son's sake, she appreciated the fact that somebody was, you know, looking after him. And now I believe that she was a good woman and Lynetta saw that, so she she was happy about that at least.
And it's interesting too that you talk about the kind of church that he was first exposed to as well, which is a Pentecostal church, and you talk about the word cultish. Even at that time they were considered a very outside the norm religion as well, weren't they. And some of the things that he got to see at an early age out of the organ.
Absolutely absolutely when Missus Kennedy wasn't actually happy about that, after a few years, he you know, she was actually taking him to uh, you know, Protestant and and and and he would go to different churches on his own. He came across that Pentecostal church, which was again on the outskirts quote unquote of uh you know, of the area, and really they were looked on as the Holy Rollers, you know, these people who kind of played fast and
loose with the religion. You know, that was something he found on his own. And that was the moment that he himself said that you know, it was it was there that he felt the most at home. Uh, And he said that's where he first experienced real love as he as he put it, or you know, his first experiences with with love and acceptance. He never felt accepted before he stepped into this into this world of kind Acostal.
Of interesting too, you have the the female minister at this church really takes him under a wing almost immediately and starts preparing him, recognizing she said, basically his verbal maturity and his and his mental superiority. You know that he was a smart kid. And so she started working with him. And that was something that Lynette wasn't his mother wasn't too happy with.
Right. Well, even before he he uh you know, had this experience, had met these Pentecostal people. He he was doing his old preaching in in uh you know, at his house. He would invite uh, you know, his friends over, and you know he I guess he started to cultivate that H skill with with I'm sure an intrinsic type of charisma that he already you know, possessed. I believe that day that you know, female minister she saw that.
And I mean, I'm sure you can imagine, you know, this this young kid walking in there by himself, which I would assume would be rare that there weren't many, you know, children that just kind of came in off the street by themselves. And I guess she again felt the need to to take him under her wing and maybe even saw this this h a need and use for him. Uh and and and and and and I
guess started mentoring him. And yet Linetta was certainly not well, you know, she didn't really know too much about it until uh, you know she uh the minister took Jimmy away on a trip, and I guess, you know, was filling his head with these paranoid delusions that I guess he portrayed onto his mother and and and told her about. And I guess at that point she was not very happy of that type of influence that she was having on him.
Now, amazingly, we're talking about a kid from ten years old to twelve years old in the time period that we're talking about here, and then at twelve years old, another incident kind of well affects his life too. Again his friend Don Friedman. Again he gets introduced to a BB gun and the next thing you know, they're introduced
to hunting. So him and Don go hunting. So tell us about this story, because obviously it's important to in foreshadowing at least, or tell us a little bit about the story about the hunting trip.
Yeah, I mean, I think this is where you first start to see, you know, Jimmy's sadistic side, where where you know, he points the gun at Don and then shoots at him, and it seems to be at this point where he's you know, starting to kind of test
this relationship. This is where he in the future we see this is a foreshadowing of every relationship that he'll have in the future, of him testing people, you know, and and and you know, it's showing his domination and his statistic side, and it's kind of scary when you look back, you know, that this was kind of the beginning of it all, and it seemed to go unchecked. You know, it never seemed to be checked at any point.
You know, in the book you talk about early influences. He's enters high school in nineteen forty five, and he's gravitates towards the works of Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mohammed Gandhi, and Karl Marx. And his IQ is reported at one hundred and eighteen. So he's a smart guy. So tell us a little bit about high school and how is he regarded as by other students. I mean, we know this is a very a time of really real religiosity, but tell us how how does he stick out or fit in?
Well, it seems that he didn't really fit in too well, you know, he it was at this point where you know, when he was younger, he you know, he was keen as not really a clean boy. He didn't really care too much about his appearance. Well this is where he started now to you know, care about his appearance. Started to do his hair, you know, that was one of his best features. And he you know, he was always combing his hair, and you know, the Jim class he
wouldn't participate. He wasn't a very athletic boy, and he was, but he was very intelligent and he would always at that point he would he was starting to you know, preach to people and to the kids, and I guess that kind of turned him off. And you know, he was trying to, I guess, learn how, you know, how to manipulate people, how to and and he wasn't really good at it at that point. You know, that's that's kind of what what I got mostly out of his high school years that he you know, he would get
it to fight. He was trying to force feed people his beliefs. And I think it was soon after that that, you know, he really started to get it that you can't do that. You know, you get more you know, flu you know, bees with honey than with vinegar.
Now, he was also at the same time he was interested in culturally what was going on, which was race relations and also interestingly where he would go out of out of his norm, out of his neighborhood or into other communities to preach. He found the you know, a big minority population. So tell us how that those the two things came together and sort of worked for him to formulate an idea of acceptance by an audience.
Right. Well, when he when he was you know, when he was in his local area, you know, he'd dress up in a robe and he'd really try to to do the fatherly you know, preaching on the streets and people just would walk by him and he wouldn't really pay him much mind. And that was predominantly you know, white area. And then he took the job in Richmond at the hospital there and that's when he started preaching
in a predominantly black area. And it was there he you know, he kind of that's where he started switching up his style. He would you know, wear jeans or he would he would dress nice, but he just he he wouldn't be so overbearing. And I think that's where he started to learn, you know that again, the manipulation tactics, you know that how he was being theen he his self awareness I think was growing and he was coming into his own at that point. But that's where he
gained acceptance. And he saw that the black community was you know, they they were more receptive. And he also started listening to a lot of the black preachers of the time and he saw how their charisma and their excitement would would were really winning people over. And he started to kind of mix that in a little at
this time and adopt those styles. And I think that's you know, at that point, Uh, he was just kind of testing it out and and and he was getting, you know, small successes, so he continued to do it.
Now you were talking about his preaching days in Richmond and where he met Dan Mittrione. And this is a he was a Richmond police officer at that time, and he's a little bit older and Jimmy and kind of took a shining to Jim Jones and also just tell us a little bit about his his CIA connection allegedly too. So tell us about this interest, how he met him, and how on earth these two guys become friendly.
We'll see that there now there. We don't have too much information unfortunately during that time period of of you know, their connection. I mean Jim Jim talks about it on certain tapes later, but he doesn't go into great detail. But you know, yes, they did have a relationship. Uh you know, it was there that they met. He became police chief Mattrion and uh, surely he knew of Jimmy. You know, preaching on those streets a white boy and
a predominantly black neighborhood. So it was there that they met, and they certainly were not It wasn't.
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Alleged CIA connection. I mean later on he he at your own became uh, you know, head of the CIA's torture department over in Brazil, and they actually did a movie about him. You know, he was killed by some gorillas. There's actually a movie about his life, so that could be easily accessible in researched as well. But yeah, they definitely knew each other and Jim Jim talked about him and I'm sure we're going to get into what happened
in Brazil. I'm sure I'm assuming that that's where you're going with this, right, absolutely, Yeah, well we'll get we'll get there. Sure, Okay, go ahead.
Now, So tell us, Uh, you know, Jim's parents separate, He's in his last year of high school. Again, you you you include a story about the last incident or the farewell dinner with his friend Don and again this is this is an important figure in this book. So tell us a little bit about this last meeting and what what it really says about Jim Jones.
Yeah, well, I mean it's funny because you know, Don had they went their separate ways in high school, and Don, you know, was kind of, I guess with the cool kids. He was playing basketball, he was a jock, and you know, he liked the ladies and and uh he was just being a normal teenage boy. You know. Jim was certainly going the opposite way with it. He was kind of a reclose and uh, you know, doing his own thing.
So they kind of separated. They had an incident where they got in you know, there was a they got into a fight on the basketball court because Jim was trying to you know, make them stop uh playing basketball, to read the Bible, which again, at that time, like I said, he was trying to force feed people, which he found later on that it just didn't work. And at that point they separated for a while, and then they came back together as any friends did, I mean
do they? I mean they you know, they knew each other since they were little kids. So Jimmy was moving and you know, so they had this type of kind of farewell dinner so just to uh, you know that they were that he was leaving and he wouldn't let Don leave. There became a time where they were hanging and he he didn't want him to leave, and you know, Don kept saying, I have to go, I have to go,
and then decided to stay. Just kept compromising, kept compromising, and finally, you know, after like an hour of doing this, he finally just said, jim I'm leaving, and you know, got up and just started walking to the door. And uh, you know, I'm sure he knew, you know, him's sadistic side at this point. I mean, I'm sure he was well aware of it, and he you know, walked fast towards the door, Jimmy uh grabs you know, his father's shotgun, which which his father was sitting in a rocking chair.
He grabbed the shotgun which was behind it his father, you know, kind of just sitting sitting there listening to the Cincinnati Reds game. You know, we wasn't even paying attention, and uh, you know, Don started running out the door, and uh, he he took he fired a shot at him that almost that almost hit him and hit the tree, and Dons you know, like hid for a couple of seconds and then just got up and took off. Uh
and jim was like it was looking for him. And I mean at this point, obviously this this kid was I'm sure terrified and had sworn to never never speak to him again. But obviously a significant moment where we see, you know this this this a type personality, uh, you know, with psychopathic tendencies starting to really take shape.
Continues working at the hospital and he sort of has a seems like an affinity for it, a very much an interest in it. And again at the hospital he's working and he sees his old pal, the guy that should know better again who does he jump into tell us again into Donald Friedman sucker for punishment.
Yeah, yeah, so he was. He runs into him again. And at this point, I think he really was starting to become good with his manipulation tactics of people telling people what they wanted to hear, persuasion techniques. He had started to really develop them very quickly once he started. Once he got that this idea and he saw that it worked, he developed them very quickly. He persuaded Don to work at the hospital with him. He said, you know, he knew Don, like you know, was really into the ladies.
At this point. He said, there's a lot of beautiful nurses, you know, And and somehow he convinced Don to to work there. And and Don, not knowing thought that, you know, him and Jim were gonna be colleagues. But Jim actually wound up being his boss.
Yeah, and writing him pretty good, didn't he So.
Oh, he wrote, He wrote him hard. He would play practical jokes on him, you know, he would. At this point. He also learned to find people's weaknesses and exploit them. So he knew Don was kind of a squeamish and afraid of blood, so he'd he'd at times, you know, they worked the night shift that so he there would be no one around, so he chased Don around with like a severed arm. You know, he he would do I mean, really, he would do just some some really
sadistic things. And I'm kind of laughing at that, but that's really not that funny, right, So tell.
Us when Jim Jones meets his wife under what circumstances, and you can start getting into some of the more profound things that he does with this ability to con and the ability to charm. So tell us a little bit about when this happens. How old is he and does.
He me I believe he's around sixteen years old. I think he meets a much older Marceline. I think I think she was twenty four. I came to go offhand, but I mean, so he meets this woman who's significantly older than him, maybe a little younger. She might have been in that, but you know, he starts to now he charms her. She sees that. You know how great Jim is with the patience, I mean, he really is.
He's he's caring, and you know, it's so hard to think about a person like Jim who later becomes or even at this point was stick and was doing psychopathic things, but also you know, can show this duality, this this heart and and and passion for you know, helping people. So it's it's this is what makes this, you know, so intriguing that you have this sociopath, psychopath who really knows how to blend in and and and and do
these things. Well, you know, and he won over Marceline, and uh, you know they I guess she reluctantly started a relationship with him, and ultimately they you know, they wound up getting married and again, and the parents weren't you know, too happy about it obviously, but you know, Jim won them over too, you know, with his.
Charm that they were. They were an upper class conservative family too, so he had to be so he had some overcoming to do with these people. They weren't instantly wanting him. They were a close knit family and they were a Methodists, so it took some convincing for them to warm up to him, didn't it.
It's amazing, It really is amazing to think how this this kid could have even done that. You know, you I guess you'd have to really be there to really understand it, which you know none of us were. But you know, he he obviously was very intelligent. He knew
how to speak very well. And he again at this point, I believe he really started to cultivate that master you know, manipulator, uh you know type personality, and he at this point he he can manipulate anybody into believing anything that he told them, you know, and I think that he won them over and he this he had this kid had no money. I mean, but I guess they could see at some point, you know, he's a smart kid, he's good, He's going somewhere. But uh, you know, as you see,
I mean, it took them a long time. They struggled. They struggled mightily. And you know, Marsolene was was the breadwinner for for a long time before before Jim kind of got on his seat.
Now again, it's interesting that Jim Jones, this guy that can, as we see, captivates so many people at one time, really is in this formulative stage where he's learning how to do things. So it takes quite a while. He starts when he's a young man, ten years old, twelve years old, is still when he's married to Marcel, and he's still honing his craft, isn't he?
Yes, Yes, absolutely, you know, I don't. I don't even think Marsoleine knew him too well in the beginning. You know, I would assume he kept a lot of things from her as far as you know, his his his personal belief and ideologies. But she would soon she would soon figure it out. And I guess at that time she was you know, in love with him and and and would would basically ride with him, you know, no matter what.
Now, soon after they're married, you said that Jim and Marcelyn. He talks Marcelyn about his belief in communism and and also about his interest in the struggle for blacks for their equality as well. So tell us a little bit about what he starts to form in his mind about a philosophy that he can use for his from the pulpit.
Right right, I mean, well, he's he's again, he's had these ideologies for a while, and and and then he tells Marceline this stuff, you know, after they're married. So you know, he was somehow able to hide a lot of these beliefs uh from her until I guess he knew he had her at a certain position, and you know, one day it just I guess it just came out and then he started taunting her that you know, there was no god there, you know, and the Bible is full of contradictions, and you know, he he he got
her so mad. He would taunt her to the point where, you know, one day she threw dishes at him and she she told him to stop, and she, you know, I guess it was, you know, very angry at him. And you know, I mean, that's that's kind of the person he was. He would just keep poking and prodding, uh until he until he made you crazy at some point. But obviously I don't think you know, she was. She was very happy about about this, and I guess she.
I don't know how she dealt with it, honestly, because in that day and age, that's a that's a pretty big, you know, divide between a a wife and you know, a husband.
Absolutely Now to complicate this, and even more interesting too, is that they at that time they were adopting children too, And they tell us about the order of events, but they end up adopting a black child and Korean, I believe, so tell us about their adoption, and then before we talk about their own child that was born between them.
Yeah, they they adopted a few children, and they took in a an older woman and they you know, then they they had uh you know, Stephen Jones, a child of their own, and they really he started you know, selling monkeys. I mean he was, he was doing all all kinds of stuff. Uh, it's it's it was. It
was a pretty interesting time. But again we justn't we don't know too much about you know, that time other than really what you know, what Tim Reideman uh wrote about and and you know he did obviously extensive research research on his on Jim's younger days. You know, so that's that's kind of where a lot of that comes from.
Sorry, did you mention about Ronnie Baldwin to her his wife's brother tell us about Ronnie Baldwin and them bringing him into the family.
Yeah, I mean Ronnie that was another one where I think he uh, that was one of the people who
he tried to manipulate. And I think that was his first failed that was his first like defector really who he tried to manipulate and say that his you know, uh the mother didn't love him and and uh, you know did the child wound up leaving him after after a certain amount of time because there was a lot of mental abuse that Ronnie went through, and Marceline I think this is where she first, you know, witnessed you know,
how sadistic Jim could be with with other people. You know, he really he was not nice to Ronnie and you know, in a lot of ways, and you know that relationship wound up ending pretty badly, and you know, thankfully for Ronnie. I mean, he was you know, one of the actually Don was the first person to defect Donald Friedman, but you know Ronnie was was the second and both were lucky to get away from him.
Now you talk about Jim's epiphany in nineteen fifty two at the Somerset Methodist Church, tell us what happens at this church and what announcement he makes in terms of his new career move.
Yeah, I mean at this point he sees a credo which you know, really wants to incorporate all types of people, and he gets very very excited and and and you know he wants it was also, uh, you know, he was able to talk about his his social views, his ideologies, and uh, you know it really always was to Jim about being able to talk about his political views. I mean, it wasn't about it was never really about religion for him. It was it was his able to push his political agenda.
And so that's one thing if you really, you know, get into researching Jim Jones, you'll find that, you know, he really was deep down an atheist, and he really just took on religion as a way to uh to to mask you know, the UH for a reason to talk about his political views. And that's that's what he did.
That's the way he was able to gain such political favor later in life with all the you know, major politicians, including you know, like I said, the President's wife, you know, Missus Ford at that time, right.
And you say too that he really he liked the uh the Methodist creed itself for its social goals and mixed it met his social goals. And he just mixed it with the the sort of the wild Pentecostal style of preaching and try to fuse those two things together. And part of it was his What he had seen too, is the healings were very powerful. You could heal somebody at these you know, at these absolutely these Well.
That was the thing it was, it was, you know, he saw a way too, and that is that is exactly right. What he was able to do is you know, he kind of was a he was forthinking in that
way where he was ahead of his time. He was able to mess these two styles and religions together and then and and the Pentecostal style of preaching, you know, which was very upbeat and excited and to really and engaging, and he was able to to do that and then and then mix in the healings as well, which were you know, fake healings, but but people believed him and he did them so well with with such great trickery that you know, people were actually starting to believe that
this this guy was a prophet. And I guess once he got a taste of that and that excitement from the crowd that that they were feeling and and and you know, uh pushing back towards him, you know, he became addicted. And uh he knew at that point that you know, if he can continue this, not only can he build his congregation, but he can also get you know, these political leaders and also more importantly, the the religious community to back him, which which you know that really
in the beginning, it was what he needed. He needed top level, you know, Uh, ministers to to back him, and you know, and and and that was his goal. And he that's why he would go to these you know, these huge seminars, the thousands of people where all these preachers would would speak, and he wanted to go in
there like a rock star. And you know, he just went over their congregations and co go and you know, win them over so he can go speak at their congregations and and and you know, basically steal their their members. And he did that very very very well.
So you talk about that this big his big debut on the big stage was in Detroit nineteen fifty three at the bethesta Missionary temple in Detroit, and it was an internominational missionary seminar and he said it was you said. The hundreds of Protestant ministers were gathered for the event and Jones wasn't scheduled to speak, but a female organizer gave the opportunity and Jim pulled out all the stops.
He was calling out names, prophesizing and healing illnesses. And he said he captivated the with with his character and he managed to steal the show and impress somebody that was very important to him and and the rest of his career of his Reverend Edwin Wilson, So tell us a little bit about that.
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean he he was able to go up there and he was able to speak and uh, you know, and and you know a lot of people were skeptical. I mean he definitely you know, there were a lot of ministers to look at this guy. Who who's this guy think he is? You know, but he just he didn't care. I mean, he was just looking to to to get grab a couple of people to
that were that were going to back him. I mean, that's all he was looking for, he didn't, you know, And he did, and then he would take them with him and he would just he would just build from there. And then he'd go to one of you know, another big you know, seminar, and he would he would do the same thing. And eventually, you know, he built such a following from from doing this that you know, he became a force to be reckoned with on his own.
Pretty soon, he leaves Somerset Methodists, gets a little bit of money and he rents a little church and he calls it the Community Unity. And it's in a racially mixed area and so he have his own church here now and he's getting known for healings and prophecies. Ah. And so tell us a little bit about the relationship, because we haven't spoken about even in his childhood, his high school. The relationship is his sexual relationship with women
and his sexual orientation. Tell us just a little bit about, you know, the importance of women and his allure or no allure with these women.
Well, he certainly had uh you know, he certainly had a war with the women. Uh. But you know, it's it's odd because if you if you read the book, if you if you know, you do your research, you'll see that he you know, he could get these women on his own without have to humiliate them. But somehow he I guess he got off on that. I mean, he really did. So he wanted to dominate them, he
wanted to embarrass them. I mean, you know, I'm sure you know what I'm speaking of with a couple of instances that were in the book with Debbie Layton later and I don't want to get too far ahead, but uh, you know, he was obviously also a homosexual. He you know, he he did sleep with men, you know, and he he openly said that even in you know, PC meetings and and to a lot of his members later after he had already gained control over them. So yeah, I mean he he had a lot of issues, you know,
as far as the way he treated people. There wasn't that he was a homosexual. It was the way he treated just the people he was with. I mean, he'd humiliate them. I mean he you know, you know without getting it's too much great detail. I mean, in the in the book, it's it's it's all right there, it's it's very sadistic.
The other thing I find interesting is too, as soon as he gets sort of the support of somebody at a religious congregation, he is either trying to take their following or upstage them. And at the same time he knows that it's a racially mixed and charged area and time, and yet he does things like bringing black church members onto the stage of the church. So he's he is a real radical and he's really burning bridges, it seems, but it's a part of his personality. He's he's not subtle, this guy.
No, he's certainly not subtle. And uh, you know, weeah. Once he once he believed that he could, you know, he he had a little he had a footholder, He had some power. He would certainly use that. He was somewhat subtle in certain ways, but you know, you know, when he first got into a couple of these churches, he he would he was subtle and he would just preach. He would you know, he was a great preacher, and show his charisma, and then suddenly he then he would
start to push his agenda, his political agenda. He would start to you know, bring the black congregation into this white you know congregation when he'd mix them. And obviously, you know, at that time, they felt very uncomfortable about that, and a lot of people left. So he didn't care, you know, he just this is the way I'm going to do things, and you know, if you don't like it, it's it's too bad. Because he knew he saw an
opportunity here. He didn't think that he was burning bridges and he was going back, going to go backwards, and he didn't. He kept going up and up with this thinking, you know, and it was like again, it was very forward thinking at the time. He was. He was well ahead of his time in that area.
Now you talk about him meeting we can't go through all the people that he meets. But it's important he meets this Jack Beam, and and he starts understanding the importance of gaining financial support. And so coincidentally he starts gravitating towards people that might have something to contribute. So tell us a little bit about the formation of People's Temple and his relationship with Jack Beam, right, well.
He needs you know, he takes Jack from the last church that he was at along with several other members. Jack becomes one of his really most staunch and loyal members for the rest of their lives. Really, and yes, he starts he starts to gravitate towards people who have money.
You know, the Myrtles had several properties, and basically his grand plan was to have everyone live communally, uh and and then just donate all of their stuff, their properties, their money, they're social Security, their salaries, whatever they were getting. They had to donate a large portion, more than half to the church. And so now the church has all
this income, you are basically working for the church. And how he would keep this all together, you know, through the long haul, was to have people sign sign documents that were blank power of attorney documents that were blank.
So then you know, he could manipulate them in any way later on if they wanted to leave, and it'd say, you know, you signed this power of attorney and you know you said that you sexually molested children, you know, and and he would just you know, they said he that's how he knew he can gain a foothold over people. He had so many different tactics of how to how to keep people quiet and how to hold them in and how to keep you know, them bringing in money for him.
You know, what was his philosophy? How did he really what was he the philosophy that he was can saying to these people in terms of the government anti government sentiment, in terms of the government was against them. They were they were oppressed at the blacks. They were oppressed, it to people, and that's why they would want to go live communally somewhere else. What was some of the things that he incorporated and he said in that philosophy.
Well, I mean he was he was really just talking about you know, what was going on at that time, and and it wasn't it wasn't anything that was you know, secretive. I mean, you know, there there were a lot of you know, race there was. It was.
It was there were a lot of.
You know, you had the Civil rights movement. I mean, you had all this stuff going on. So this wasn't you know anything that he was telling them that that was you know, new news. I mean, he was just basically taking what was going on at that time and and uh using it to to for in his favor, telling them, you know that you know, he was not like that. He was going to build the community that was you know, racially mixed, and uh, you know, this
is going to be the new thing. This is going to be the way it is in the future, and we're going to show them, you know, how to live and the right way to live. And you know, I mean it's just you know, he he would just use that to his favor. It was. It was sort of like a a Martin Luther King, but the you know, dyslexic psychotic version.
You know, Now, where was the first People's Temple established? It's nineteen fifty nine, But where where is this?
Uh? I I you know, I don't, I don't even you see, you've done more research I think to be a bit on my book.
Well, I know he was, he wasn't it He wasn't Indianapolis. And then I know he's in San Francisco, so I'm.
Right he can say, well, yeah, it was San Francisco. Was on the Geary it was on Geary Street. It was San Francisco. Then he was in Yukaiah and he was in Los Angeles, right, yes, some of the Yeah, And.
It's interesting.
I believe it was Yukayah. Yu Kaiyah was the it was the first area of the People's Temple.
It's interesting. In fifty nine the temple has two thousand members. And and so we're entering into nineteen sixty and he's talking about a person named Father Divine, the leader of the International Peace Mission movement. And this guy's they're calling him the Dean of the universe and even God himself. So tell us a little bit about Father Divine and Jim Jones.
Yeah, Father Divine had you know, they were saying that he had some more a million followers at that time. He was a very popular Black minister, and he was also rich, and you know, he lived in a in a mansion and he prophesied himself as you know, the
Living God, and you know, his followers believed him. And I think this is when when Jim you know, got winto him and and then eventually went out and met him and saw his congregation preached with him, he kind of got this idea that you know, I could do this, you know, I can do this with my people. And Father Divine's wife was not too happy with Jim Jones.
I think she sensed that he, you know, was was trying to, uh to use Father Divine and manipulate him and use his tactics, and and I think you know, there was at one point he was, you know, Father Divine kind of wanted him to Jim to take over when he was done, and a Mother Divine was just she was not having it. And uh, but Jim figured, you know, I could take this back to my congregation,
and and that's what he did. He told he assumed many of the rules that Father Divine had and he put those on his people, like no sex, you know, between between anyone in the congregation, and you know, just just there were a lot of rules that Father Divine had that he assumed for his congregation.
Right and and how does Jim get to the idea or or what happens with the progression of people's temple from that point.
From that point on it it becomes much more strict.
Uh.
You know, it seems that there's a there's a change and members, you know, see this change in Jim where he becomes much more authoritative and and much more militant with his h with his congregation, and uh, you know, they a lot of people I think did not like it. But you know, again he had this stronghold over them, and he wouldn't do this with the new members. You know, with the new members would come in and he would he would, you know, have his congregations. He would have
them seen as you know, they just as normal. He would have them at his normal sessions preaching, you know, prophesizing. But then he would have other sessions where he would really start to talk to his other members, his his staunch members, and they would see the real Jim Jones. And then once he got these people, these other new recruits in, that's when he would show them who he really was.
In the book you have in nineteen sixty one, his associate pastor Archie Items, Jim Jones tells him he hears voices from extraterrestrial beings that he had a vision of a nuclear explosion in Chicago of apocalypse proportions, and this is where he starts talking about moving the church to a safe zone to avoid nuclear fallout. Uh So tell us a little bit what the fallout is from him talking like this, Well, you.
Know there there, that's where I start to kind of you know, disassociate myself and then veer off from the from the original version, where you know, I don't believe I believe that that was just an excuse for him to you know, and I don't you know, I don't like to say because I don't want to get too radical and I don't want to push people in a direction of my I'd like the reader to figure it out, you know, for themselves or have their own opinion of it.
But you know, I don't believe that was the reason. I believe he was going traveling to this uh you know, CIA installation. Uh, you know where Dan Mittrion had coincidentally, you know, coincidentally where he was. And then there were people who saw him out there. You know, he was he had a lot of money out there. Suddenly he didn't have a lot of money here all of a sudden, he was he looked like he was rich out there and there were a lot always government US government cars
in front of his house. I mean, there seemed to be a lot of fishy things going. I had two passports, you know, like like he had a double I mean there, you know, at that point, it kind of seemed like there was a lot of things happening where we can't explain. And that's where things get a little fishy and dicey.
Well what do you what do you assume or what what do you theorize happened in this You talk about him moving to Hawaii and you talk about you have good proof that he had again this money that doesn't seem to have any source of this income. Why would what was why Dan mittrion c I a US government? What do they know about Jim Jones, whether they believe about Jim Jones? And why would they be interested in Jim Jones?
Well, obviously he had uh you know, a pretty uh you know he had he had he had had that charisma, He had a congregation, he was building it. Maybe they you know, they said, will help you, uh build the even bigger congregation. We'll get you in with certain government agencies.
I mean, all this is speculation. I can't really I you know, I could theorize you know, anything I want, you know, I mean it's we could we could fill in the gaps here any any way that we want, with any type of philosophy, which in my opinion, makes a lot of sense. It's very reasonable. But again a lot of it's speculation. But there was something happening there, and there is evidence that there was something other than
what the official official version is. And I believe that, you know there he was going to these places where where you know there there was actually a military basis there. So why would he look for safe havens near military bases? I mean, that doesn't really make much sense, right, I mean those areas would be hit first and in nuclear fallout, right, So there's a lot of things that don't make sense in his scenario trying to travel, you know, and it just didn't make sense to me.
You have it.
In nineteen sixty one, Jones disappears from the public record for about six months, and this is after traveling to Guyana, And so tell us what happens after that six months after he emerges, and what is it about Guyana? And it's Paulic in its political state that would be of interest to Jim Jones.
Well, they would certainly back him. It was definitely isolated, very isolated. You know, no one would be able to get in and out without his, say he was. He was able to, you know, build this beautiful community, uh that would house his people, and it was it was a perfect place for him to isolate these people and get their news strictly from him. They weren't able to get any outside news. It was it was Jim Jones was your CNN. He was in total control, and that's that's what he wanted.
Now, tell us just for this background, because we we intimated it and we spoke about it in the synopsis about the M Culture experiments. So briefly, tell us what you know and what you found out about the M culture experiments from CIA.
Yeah, I mean MK Ultra is pretty widely known.
Uh.
You know, they had they had they had Senate hearings in in seventy six and seventy seven, Tight Kennedy's Uh, you know, they had the Senate hearings the Health Committee, and you know it's they basically were doing experiments, uh so many different conduits. You know, there's books and books about it, but basically they were doing uh they they
stole a lot of techniques from the Germans. UH, the United States, they took a lot of their scientists, you know, after Nuremberg, and they went and uh you know, they developed, they developed a lot of the torture techniques and things that they were doing in Germany, and US wound up developed developing them further and putting them under an umbrella of different experiments, and then then and then kind of trimming them down into sub projects, and then you know,
they they just they did a lot of stuff. Give me an example. You know, they had safe houses in New York and San Francisco and uh CIA agents would have you know, prostitutes lore you know, gentlemen back and then they would stand behind a glass like you know, a glass wall or a glass door, and they would see, you know, secretly administer them with LSD and and UH and then I guess you know, they would do experiments on them. I mean, these are these are well documented.
There's just so many things that that happened. And you CIA would also you know, put money under fake corporations to universities, like the Georgetown University was youthed and this was all in the paper. I mean, this was widely known, and it came out at the time during those sended hearings. So I mean, if if you don't know anything about MK Ultra anyone out there, I mean, it's certainly part of us history that you want to familiarize yourself with because it did happen.
The other fascinating fact that you uncovered too, it's is that he had a Q and visa and met Fidel Castro after some anti communist speeches. So tell us what that might mean. Again, we're already talking about what it means, but the significance.
But I mean, I mean, the first I guess thing you'd want to do is if you were teaming up with someone who you didn't want anybody to know you were teaming up with, would be to talk against them, right, I mean, or or or vice. I you know, I don't know what what he was trying to do as far as with Fidel Castro or Eddie these people. I mean, honestly, there's just really no no way to know. But but there is evidence. You know that he you know that he was he was he was talking to CIA people.
You know, he knew a lot of CIA people. We know Jim Jones did you know, especially in Guyana. So we just don't know what where those links led to, how far, how deep that rabbit hole went, we just don't know. Unfortunately, because his his his you know, the FBI is c i A. They purged his records right after they had a big file on him, that was completely purged right after he died. Unfortunately, we'll never really know to what extent that that and how far this really went. You know.
The other fascinating aspect of this person's character, and it's important to be able to understand the true scope of who he was and what he became, is the revelation that, with his wife's I guess permission he was women were paying five thousand dollars for Joanes sexual services. So apparently he's a very Anyway, tell us a little bit about what you found about his jigglo.
Days was just him being what he had proclaimed, so we don't you know, I mean, obviously that might have been an exaggeration. I mean, Marceline, you know she did say that that you know that that stuff did happen, but you know, who knows, maybe that was just what what what he was saying and wanted her to say. So that he can manipulate people further.
But it might seem to make sense when you have a certain hold on people, when they're giving up their property and not sleeping with their spouse and and all the things that we'll talk about in in in the future. So there might be some credence to it as as unreally.
Absolutely would be. Yeah, yeah, there absolutely might be. Unfortunately, it came it came straight from Jim's mouth, and there were there were you know, he didn't he didn't really identify and or and we didn't hear what the the other person their story, so you know, and then again, you know, you have, like I said, we have Debbie Layton's story, which you know, she tells a couple of
stories in her book and I chronicle. You know, one of the stories that she told about, you know, Jim saying that she was begging him for sex, and we know that wasn't true. So you know, I think I think we can we're safe to assume that he was probably at least skewing the facts there, you know what I mean.
Now, let's talk about this Dan Mittrion again. When Jim meets him at sixteen years of age and Mittrion takes him under his wing. And now who does Mittrione become and what is he getting involved with in terms of the CIA and torture and so tell us a little bit about that.
Yeah, he becomes one of the you know, major CIA torturers in history. And again if you don't know anything about him, definitely you know, look him up. And there is a movie, uh that that is out about his life that you you definitely want to check out. It was it was it was a major motion picture back back in the day. So so you'll you'll be able to really get into, you know, what he was about
and what his life was about. Unfortunately, Jim Jones was not you know, his character is not featured in that movie but or in the movie in any way. But you'll you'll be able to really get a good look at at what type of person Matrione was and uh and and what he did for the c i A, which we thought there were not many nice things.
So his in the old connection with Mittrion and Brazil and again former Nazis and c i A and and Jim Jones and his family being there. Tell us now about the establishment of People's Temple in San Francisco and uh tell us a little bit about that.
Uh well, yeah, I mean in San Francisco is a great area for him because you know, the hippies were down there. There were a lot of people looking for you know, a savior, looking for you know, some anti establishment. Uh that That's totally what it was down there in
San Francisco at that time. So in the in the high Hey in Nashbury, uh, you know, affection, So it was uh, it was a perfect place for him to build this community and get these you know hippie uh you know, Harry Krishna type following as well as you know, getting uh put it, getting together a congregation of the
locals who were working class people. So he was able to to get you know, just about every type of people that were down there a group of people and and get them together and get them to rally behind him. So it wound up being a really perfect area for him. I think that it wound up being the best area. Became that home hub for him. You know, even though he did operate. I mean they would take bus rides all over the place, you know, Atlanta, they would go
all over to try to recruit people. But that kind of became his hub and his place that he really really settled it his home.
Now you in the book, interestingly, you talk about detour a little bit and go back to a woman named Debbie Layton and how she gets introduced to Jim Jones through her brother Larry, who had joined the pimp of People's Temple and thinking that he's doing humanitarian work. So there's a reason why Debbie Layton is introduced. But tell us about Debbie Layton and how she is convinced with her you know, some of the stuff that her brother Larry tells her about and tell us about this fascinating care.
Yeah, I mean, you know, Debbie Layton has a book and uh and and Jeanie Mills has a book as well. And to me, you know, you can't talk about the story about talking about these two because they they play a quintessential role in the rise and fall, particularly the fall of Jim Jones. And they also are able to really get you know, you really they help you see
a side of Jones that you you wouldn't see otherwise. Uh. You know, So Debbie, you know, got in through her brother Larry, and you know, she was kind of a troubled child, she didn't really have a direction. She wound up meeting Jim. She felt just like I guess, you know everyone else who who who joined who wound up feeling at home? And you know, she joined and she became a staunch member. Yeah, I mean she and then
she wound up in Jonestown. And when she got to Jones since she really saw I guess, just like everyone else that you know, it wasn't what they thought it would be, and most people wanted to leave almost right away. Well let's not just jump ahead quite quite yet. Let's let's talk a little bit about how Jim gets to basically have He does this incredible favor for Larry. Larry is a war objector. He writes a letter to not have to go to the war. Barry is so enamored
by him. He tells his sister Debbie about this People's Temple. This is kind of the in the beginning, how he builds this really allegiance of of of a core group of people that will do anything for him. Right, So it's about.
That those early days in People's Temple, before they get the idea that they should go to Guiana, before they get the property itself, and or they have has has the rasonale that they want to get the hell out of the US.
Well, I mean Jim was pumping, you know, pumping these ideas into the head are pretty early on. I mean, you know, they got this property in years before you know, Jim had I believe Jim got the property started this
process back in nineteen seventy four. You know, maybe even a little a little before that, but it's seventy four was officially that you know, he was they started, they started head He started heading against congregation in this way I guess, you know, hit to get at first, and then eventually you know, this was what they were all gearing towards. But yeah, I mean, this was this was the objective. I mean, this, this was was what what he was selling. Let's live communally, and we we can't
live communally in here. I mean, you know, we can't bring all these people and put where we're gonna where we're gonna put. We need to build our own facility. And it was, you know, it was just thinking, oh, it's going to be heaven, It's gonna be beautiful. And then once you know, the first settlers of Jonestown were there, they would send video back of how gorgeous it was and these propaganda videos. So I mean this was this was in the works and Jim's idea for many, you know,
many years. It didn't just happen overnight, you know, did he get did it? Was it just his idea? I mean, was this some type of nefarious idea that he had, you know, with like I said, other people involved, such as government agencies. Again and again we could speculate, but you know, he had.
A way too with the philosophy that he learned from Father divine there that the idea that even couples that would come into the congregation wouldn't be allowed to have sex with each other. And you include a story where he actually says, listen, I can see that you people really aren't right for each other, and they oddly marry other people in that congregation hook up and he's sort of the matchmaker in there, but shows you the manipulation that he is learning rapidly.
Right, it was, it was it was divide and conquer. I mean that's you know, that was his major I believe philosophy. And you could see this in many different areas. It was divine, it was. It was a divide and conquer philosophy. It was you know, he would pit brother against brother, sister against brother, mother against son. You know if later on in Jonstown you really see this happening
where he would test people. He would send a father to his son and say, you listen, I'm thinking about, you know, leaving, I'm thinking about escaping, and then that son did not tell the authorities, that son would then be you know, scolded, you know, put in in isolation. So he really learned to do in doing that, he made people not trust each other, therefore dividing everyone, you know what I mean. So you couldn't trust your best friend because you didn't know if he was tricking you
or not. Well, he was sent from Jones himself.
It's fascinating too that you talk about Larry and Caroline. He splits up that couple, but them Caroline becomes his confidant. He says he's not having sex with Marceline, so he starts having sex with Caroline again. It's ironic that he forbade sex between couples, And then I guess that's part of why he might have looked at Debbie as being quite special and in that when he looks at Debbie is quite special.
What is he?
How far does he go? And what does the kind of things that he says to her to convince her to come along into this people's temple.
Well, you know, with with Debbie, I think she was at a vulnerable stage in her life and she was really looking for uh, you know, to do something. She was little kind of the black sheep in the family. Everybody else uh in the family where they were they were her brothers and sisters were were doing things. You know, they were they were you know, they were they were had great careers. I mean, you know, they were doing great things. And the parents were looked up to them,
and they looked at dead looked down on Debbie. So really I think she was looking to do something. And she saw what Larry was doing, this humanitarian work, and I guess she felt, you know, this may maybe her calling. Now, after she initially met Jones, she went back to school and was you know, she was doing something else for like a year or so, and he just kept again we see more for Shadow, and he kept sending her letters.
He one of this great letter camp letter writing campaign to her, you know, showing that he never forgot about her. That she could be an integral part of the of the church that she you know, just making her feel like they needed her. And that's you know, at that point, I guess with no other direction, and and you got this powerful man telling you, you know, of this large
organization that they need you. I'm sure that that that, you know, pushed her over the edge and uh and drew her in pretty pretty hard.
He matches her up as well with with a couple of devout Temple members which are Tim and gray Stone, and they she stays at their home, so again further convincing her how great and wonderful Jim Jones is. Caroline. Again we've didn't mention Caroline actually believes Jim Jones is the reincarnation of Jesus, doesn't she.
She doesn't and as well as many other members too. Yes, absolutely, And Callen actually becomes Calvin becomes his uh in effect that he says later on, the only woman he truly you know, is the like the love of his life. So you know, she wound up being his really his They at a top level person really the next in charge next to him.
To demonstrate the level of success that Jones is having and his People's temples. By seventy two, he has he's holding and running several properties, you say, And they have these Christian science church building in Los Angeles, San Francisco's People Temple, and a temple in Yucaia, and which you say has a forty foot indoor swimming pool, a forty acre children's home, three convalescence centers, and three college dormitories. They also run a Heroin rehabilitation center and their own
what they're calling their own welfare system. So he's getting in. The temple is getting big, and they are doing those kinds of things in the community, giving back to the community, which is convincing more and more members, isn't it.
Oh yeah, of course, and not not just members. I mean, you know other people are seeing this. You know, political leaders are seeing all this work that's being done. I mean, how could you overlook that? You know what what this this guy's able to accomplish, this is these are huge accomplishments for back in that time. So again you can see how he starts to really win over public opinion.
I mean they also you know, they have they get their own printing present at some point, you know, they're putting out a magazine or a newspaper, you know, I mean they're they're they're really really expanding and spreading their wings, you know, more than than than any other establishment like them is doing, and they start to become you know, very far reaching for for that time.
It's interesting right at this time though, that he gets so I guess narcissism takes over and he's they're making claims that he has raised a Los Angeles man from the dead. Now this raises the well, the media is interested and they're ready to publish a bunch of articles. But very much like reminiscent of scientology and it's campaign to silence critics, tell us about what People's Temple does the silence critics?
Well, yeah, I mean they use a lot of threats. Again, they use that letter writing letter writing campaigns, you know, they have they have several different uh tactics to do. So you got to remember this. You know, this was a time before Twitter and you know, Facebook and mass mass media. I mean, we really didn't have anything like that.
So you know, when when when somebody's raising someone from the dead and you hear about this, it becomes almost like this mythological thing that that the you know, is spread around, you know, and and and unfortunately, like you said, you don't have you don't have that firsthand view. So you're hearing second, third, fourth hand views of things, and uh, it becomes legendary.
Part of the manipulation, he says, is that if they again it seems reminiscent of scientology as well too, is that they they said, if you ever were to lead the church, you would be reincarnated as like a slug to take you one hundred thousand years to get back to where you were in terms of progressing. So all kinds of discouragement, uh, for leading the church. And we'll see how far he goes with that idea.
Right right, Yeah, I mean you know that's that's one of many, uh you know, little techniques that that Jones has to to keep his people in mind. I mean, he he has so many at this point, and he'll he'll use anything, He'll say anything, I mean as outrageous.
Well, we have had a we'll survive. Just drop off our conversation. We will let him come back. I guess he will have to call back in and we'll continue our conversation about jonestown. Don't drink the kool aid. Very interesting. We're just about to talk about Jim Jones and his plans, the actual plans that he puts forward with his followers to make the exodus to Guana, South America and build the People's Temple compound compound called Jonestown in Guyana, in
the remote jungles of Guyana, South America. And as we and Will has alluded to, there are powerful people including Rosalind Carter, Harvey Milk, Congressman in San Francisco, and other political and important allies, political allies that are looking at Jim Jones experiment with and looking at it optimistically that it's something that they can learn from, and looking to Jim Jones as a benevolent leader doing good social socially addressing social issues, and so that there was something to
look at and admire in the Jonestown experiment, uh and in the People's Temple itself and the things that we were trying to achieve. Now Will has dropped off, so we will give this about five minutes. Again, we would be going about probably well over the hour and a half mark of the program, which I'd like to keep it to about an hour and a half. This is really it is a and we've taken this long to get to this point, but things rapidly again we'll say
deteriorate is a is not an appropriate term. But in getting involved with the Congressman le O'Ryan and the US government eventually investigating claims of some people's temple members that
are not happy with this Jim Jones utopia. And so this book, like I say, you have to get the groundwork for the history behind this incredible time, the context, the history, the again everything that we've laid out to be able to fully understand what happens at Jonestown, why, and some of the connections that Will has made with the Dan Mettreon and the CIA, the MK ultra experiments in mind control. It's a very very fascinating time in American history and Jonn's town and Jim Jones are part
of that. A very fascinating story at that time in history and again becoming one of the most important moments in history, the Jonestown, Jonestown murders, mass suicide and the murders of congressmen and some of his other people that were involved in going over to Jonestown for the investigation and media interviews. So it looks like will survive is
might not reconnect. So I will use this as an opportunity to please take a look at his book Jonestown, Don't Drink the kool Aid, The complete story behind the mysterious Jim Jones and his exodus to Guenna. Thank you very much, have a great evening.