JOHN WAYNE GACY: HUNTING A PREDATOR-John Borowski

nineteen seventy eight, John Wayne Gacy was arrested. Upon an initial search of the crawl space beneath his ranch house in Norwood Park Township, Illinois, the authorities discovered the remains of several bodies. The skeletal remains of twenty nine young men were unearthed on Gaysey's property. Another four bodies were pulled from the river where Gaysey jumped them off the Smith Bridge in Shanahan, Illinois, bringing the body count to

thirty three total. In nineteen seventy eight, Gaysey held the title of America's most prolific serial killer for the first time. In print, John Wayne Gacy Hunting a Predator contains the police and other legal files covering the pursuit, arrest, and confession of Gaysey. The book that we're featuring this evening is John Wayne Gacy Hunting a Predator, The Pursuit, Arrest and Confession with my special guest, true crime filmmaker and author John Barowski. Welcome to the program, and thank you

very much for this interview. John Serowski.

into special makeup effects. I reached out to Dick Smith, who did the makeup effects for The Exorcist and The Godfather and many other classic films, you know, and then he had gotten me in touch with someone who was local near me in Chicago, and that's how I started doing makeup effects. And then I had shot short films on eight millimeter, which at the time that's what it was before video. You know, you'd shoot, you'd send your

film into be developed, you'd get it back. And so I was actually, you know, using my makeup creations in these short films with my best friends, so I think it was when I was probably either a senior in high school or just after my senior year of highs school. My best friend called me up and he said, you got to come over. So I went over to his house.

And his father was a detective in Chicago when Dahmer was arrested, and I believe it was ninety one, so that would have just been when I graduated high school. So he had said, you got to come over here, and I went to his house and what my friend thought was a mask catalog was actually the Dahmer file, which he found in his father's study, and it contained Dahmer's brief confession, but it also contained photocopies of photos that Dahmer took of his victims, heads on the sink,

with amplicated hands and body parts. And coming from a background of horror films, when I had seen these, this was real horror. It wasn't, you know, anything that was made up. So I was shocked at these photos. You know, the heads had the eyes open and the mouths were open and just awful, you know, and I couldn't get out of my head. So when I went into college, I figured, well, from my first film Tech two class. What better to do than a short film on the dose,

including some of his confessions. So that was interesting. And also when I was in college, I had to do a paper on the history of Chicago and I was looking through this one book and they mentioned this castle of AK Holmes, that this guy had built this nuge building in the eighteen hundreds and rented rooms during the World's Fair, and it was like a kind of murder mansion from the mind of Edgar all of Pohand of course that fascinated me because I've always been into lacabre,

but it wasn't really until I read Harold Checker's book Deranged. Once I read Deranged, that really created HH Holmes as a more fascinating character, given the fact that he went to medical school and graduated medical school, and he had three wives and he had mistresses, and it was his own attorney at his trial. So I thought, Wow, this isn't just some madman who designed this crazy building. This

was an emo genius. And the next thing was I looked up why there wasn't ever a filmmate on AJ Holmes. So that was my first film out of college. AJ Holmes Americus a serial killer, and that began my interest in serial killers. That was a big hit. So I just continued making films on serial killers, and you know, I thought, well, who could top h Holmes? And nobody had made a film about Albert Fish, so that was

my second. And then I had done cans Ran and then a film called serial Killer Culture, which examines why people authors, musicians, and artists and collectors are fascinated by serial killers. And I turned that to a TV show called serial Killer Culture TV. And along the processes I'm making my films, though, I think about, you know, I've got all these original documents and research materials. Why don't I just put my research materials into books? And that's

how the books came about. So when you read my books, they may have a forward by me or someone else, but they're really the original case documents, you know. And because there are so many books out on these serial killers, I thought, what could be more interesting than reading the words from the serial killers or the detectives attorneys in PSYCHIAI just who chased and studied these serial killers.

the most prolific serial killer in American history. And your book includes information by the planes Police Department in Illinois who tailed Gaysey for twenty four hours for ten days in December nineteen seventy eight, which led to his apprehension, trial, and eventual execution. These documents are an excellent example of true detective work, basically some of the best detective work in history. This is all pre DNA typing as you write, what is this book dedicated to?

I mean, it's twofold. It's dedicated to the detectives who brought him down, as well as the victims, which were unfortunate, but it's really dedicated to the detectives who, without them Gacy may have continued doing what he was doing obviously as cross space was filled, and then he started throwing bodies off the Smith Bridge and may have been caught eventually, but the trying and true detective work of the Displays detectives.

I interviewed two of the former detectives, Mike Albrecht and Dave Hafmeister, and some of their stories kind of move into the realm of absurdity. And this has all been interesting lately. I recently had revisited Goodfellas it was re released them shown at a theater out here and actually right near Displays where Gasey was brought down, the Pickwick Theater, and watching that throughout almost the entire movie, you're laughing at the absurdity of this. Some of the aspects of

the Gaycy case are that absurd. I mean, these detectives brought down probably the top five most world renowned serial killers ever and they had to carry quarters in their pockets because their CBS wouldn't even reach their headquarters at the time period. I mean, you talk about impossible on no cell phones, and they didn't even know what was going on. They had no idea that all these bodies

were in the basement. They knew something was wrong because they knew one of their residents and displays was missing. He was last seen with this contractor Gaycy. So the Lieutenant Cosens act it was really because of him creating this task force of detectives. They created three different teams, one to look at Gaysey's background, one to look at Rob Peace the missing victims background, and another one just to investigate Gaycy now. And then when they investigated Gaycy's background,

they saw these satomy charge in Waterloo, Iowa. They saw there were two or three arrests in Chicago since he had returned from Waterloo. Something's amiss here. And again I dedicated to them because they are the true heroes and they're so you know. Even when I met the dentist who identified all of the well not all, but the majority of the remains, doctor pablock, I said, you're a hero,

and just like the detectives, they'll poopoo it. And I'm like, man, you guys, really they're so you know, down to earth and good people. But in the end, they are the true heroes of the story.

you can tell this story as well. Tell us the story about the mother and Rob Peaste and the pharmacy and this talk of the job and an interesting person that came forward, which was Kim Buyers that worked in the photo section of that pharmacy. Tell us this horrible story. Because we don't have the opportunity through the confession or through these documents to go through the thirty three victims, the twenty or so that were identified in the end,

the nine that weren't. But let's go back to that date and how Gacy was tripped up finally thankfully.

looking for fructra work. So he's at the pharmacy one night and there was this contractor who is Gaycy was there. Gacy was in the store. He was familiar with the owner, Go Tork and Kim Byers was there. He was another worker Apple store. So they all went miss safety in there, you know, possibly talking to Rob Peace. And at one point in the night Kim Buyers, the other coworker at the pharmacy, wanted to go outside. She had to run outside.

I don't know if she smoked or wanted to grab something, but she asked about Rob's jacket, so he said, no problem. He gave her this blue down jacket that he wore, and not knowing it, she had in her hands. What she had given to the pharmacy was a because again in the old days, when you would develop photos, you would give them your role of photographs and they would put it in an envelope and you'd get a little receipt.

So when you come back to pick up your developed photos, you give them the receipt and pay and you get your photographs. So she had done that. She had a receipt from her photographs that she had put in Rob Peacee's jacket. She totally forgot about it. So later she goes back in, she gives Rob Piecee his jacket. She forgets about it. Snow big deal. So later in the night, about nine o'clock, I think the store clothes. Around nine o'clock, just before nine, Rob Peace's mother had come to pick

him up, and she went in the store. She had seen him. He said, okay, you know, I'll be on the feud. She went out front, was waiting for him, you know, and then nine o'clock comes, around nine ten, nine twenty, he's nowhere to be found. She goes back in. They say, well, we don't know where he went. You know, last we saw him, he said he was going to run outside and talk to that contractor guy. That's all he said. So that's where the story kind of began.

So his mother went home and said, well, I'm sure I'll call her me. He went home. No big deal. And it was her birthday. It was Rob Peace's mother's birthday, so they were going to celebrate her birthday. She was picking her son up, goes home hour goes by, hours go by, more hours go by. Of course, you know, this good kid, you know, who never was in any trouble, never shows up the entire night. So the parents call it the Spains police department that night and they take

the information down. Early in the morning, Rob Keith's parents are there at the Discloine's police department being on the door. He never showed up. So that's when the investigation into the disappearance of Rob Pease began, and that's when they started asking people questions they went to. Obviously during the investigation, they go to the pharmacy and they say, well, yeah, he talked to that contractor guy. Well, may have been Gaycy.

He was in here. We're not sure if that was him, because no one saw Rob Keats get into Dacy's vehicle. But the detectives are figuring out, okay, let's go and talk to this Gacy guy. So you know, eventually, you know, they call Gacy and you know, he said he would be in and make some excuses, and you know, so eventually they do wind up talking to Gacy and you know, he kind of you know, just says, you know, here's

what happened. You know, my uncle was dying, and you know, I was at home, and you know, I don't know anything about this kid. I was there at that store earlier and that's all I know. And even after that though, they thought they were you know, inaccuracies and and story. So the Displays Police Department did get a search warrant, and after that first search warrant, that was where all the red flags were raised because when they searched Gacy's house,

they found numerous IDs from different young men. They found pairs of handcuffs, they found dildo's, they found books hidden about you know, gay lovers, and you know, you know, all the asnomy materials. They found a two by four that had holes drilled into it. So obviously, you know, their suspicions were raised. And then if a little what actually happened is Rob Peace did go out to talk to John Wayne Gacy. When he went out, Gacy said, well, yeah,

happened to car. You know, I only lived five minutes from here. We'll go to my house. We'll talk about it. You know, I you know, I could pay you more than what anybody else pays you. So it was really you know, the allure of making more money that threw rod he's John Wayne Gacy. And again Gacy was well known. He was a nice guy. Everybody knew Gaycy, so it wasn't like this was some stranger in a sense because Phil Poor, the owner of the pharmacy, he knew Gaycy.

And Rob Peace did get in the car with Gacy and he went to his house, which was more again about five or ten minutes away from the pharmacy. Gets there, Gazie's talking to him about, well, you know, I'm pretty liberal minded myself. You know, what do you think about sex? What are your views on it? You know, have you ever heard of the Kingsy Report? You know. He does his usual speel on Rob Peat, trying to feel him out to see if he's going to be easy or

he's going to be hard victim. Well, it turned out that he wasn't really into it. And then Gacy started to show him the handcuff trick and he said he was a registered clown and puts these handcuffs on Rob Peace just like he did all his other victims, behind Rob Peaste's back so he can't get out of them. He shows Rob Peace the key and says, well, here's the key, you know, this is how I got out of him. This is why you came out of them,

because I had the key. And then he starts actually attempting to perform oral sex on rob Peaste, and rob Peaste wasn't able to achieve an erection, so Gacy started to do the rope trick. And two reasons for the rope trick. One if it's kind of like when people do the autoerotic asphyxiation, that it's possible to have more blood flow that have erection, So that was one reason.

But eventually once Gacy turned it even more, turns the rope around their neck, he would create a little not stick a stick in and then create another not turn that like a tourniquet, eventually choking them within a matter of thirty seconds. So he was turning this on rob Piece. Rob Piaste was crying as if Gacy was attempting oral sex on him. The phone rings, Acy goes to answer the phone. When he comes back, Rob Piece is dead on the floor from the tourniquet, and then Gacy fluck

with the body. Overnight may have had more sex with it, Gaysey said he did. We're not sure of the exact details of that, and then Gacy took rob Piece's body and put it in the attic. So the first time when the Displainings detective came to Gacy's house and searched the entire house, I'm sorry, prior to the first time of searching the house, when they just went to talk to Gacy, Rob Peace's body is still in the attic.

So that's when Gacy, when they left Casey took the body down, took it to the river, threw it in the river, and then the displays police came back with

a search warrant, so it again. You know, it's just this chain of events that I think poor Rob Peace is probably you know, they were all bad, but I think that one get the closest to home because it was his last victim, and you know, Gasey was just getting sloppy, you know, I think his lust overcame his mind at that point and probably even you know, didn't even think about the fact that he was probably seen by other people and he would be fingered.

around the clock twenty four hours. There was a day shift and a night shift, so the officers I interviewed Hackmeister and Albrek they were the night shift. So they had started I believe that night, maybe midnight, and then they would go until noon next day. So it was like, you know, twelve each each one had a twelve hour shift, and at first there wasn't a surveillance, but I think the first day or two after, I think, especially after they had gone in with a first search onet. That's

where around. I believe it was ten or eleven days total of the surveillance, and so they had started. It was a covert surveillance. That's what it was supposed to be at first. So Dave Hackmeiser was the second shift on the scene and when he arrived, he didn't see Gaysey until the next morning. So Dave Hackmeister was parked on Gacy's block. At about ten am the next morning, Gasey came up his block, stopped, saw Dave Hackmeister and

waved at him. So it was no longer a covert, you know, Valance, because Gaey knew and along the whole time of the surveillance. Gacy was very nice to all the detectives. He knew what was going on. There were times when the first couple of times when these detectives were following him, he would order them drink. He would tell them to come over and sit with him when they were at a restaurant. He's like, why should we sit apart? I don't know why they're following me.

You're gonna love him. So I could never see doing anything bad, you know. So these detectives are following Gaycy, but you know, there are times where he would lose them. He would he would fly. You know. I got stories from the detectives that said they'd be doing these high speech chases in Chicago. Police would never stop them. They're chasing Gaycy, and he would lose them sometimes. So that's where the total twenty four hour surveillance, you know, comes

into place. Sometimes they had lost him and he would just take off at high speed.

So they're trying to piece these again, these pieces together and say, okay, this is kind of strange. So at one point, the day shift investigators said, well, you know what, if Gaysey invites us into his house, we're going to go in. So one night, Gacy says, you want to go bowling, I'm going bowling. So the cops go bowling with him. They actually both some games, had some drinks with him. They go back to Gacy's house. He invites them in. They went in and one of the guys said, well,

you know what, try and keep Gasey busy. I'm going to try and sneak into that room and write down the name of you know, the serial number of that television to see if it was John Zick's. So he asks Gafey, Okay, you know, where's your restroom? Can I use that? Gasey tells them it's down the hall over there.

So the detective goes down the hall, goes to use the restroom, and as he's in the restroom, he smells the smell coming from the events when the heater kicks in, and he said the last time he remembered smelling a

smell like that was at the County Morgue. So again, there are all these little clues leaning up to these to the eventual you know what we found out at the end of the investigation, but that's the serial number on that television because right after you got out of the bathroom, he don't want to be way too long he was coming, so you know, they didn't find that out until the end. But again, along their investigation they're putting all these pieces together, including when they go back

to the pharmacy. One of the key pieces of evidence items was Kim Buyer's film re seat because when the detectives actually did do the search of Gacy's house, on the first search, warrant. They looked in one of Gacy's garbage cans and they found that film re seat in Gacy's garbage can. So they went back to the pharmacy, interviewed kim Byer's and kim Byer said, that's my film receipt.

I put it in Rob Peace's jacket pocket. So what that meant was that placed Rob Peace in Gacy's house because it was in his jacket when kim Byer's had given him his jacket back, So they knew at some point Gacy had been in touch with Rob Peaste or he had been in that house.

they did say, just thought they might be loyal. What kind of information did they learn from like guys like Mike Rossi and David cham I believe his last.

his cross space. So tell these kids is, look, I need you to dig trenches in the crawl space because they get flooded down there with all this storm water and you know, have some pump down there. But I need these you need to build these trenches. So supposedly, according to Gacy, that he would supervise them when they would go down there and dig some of these trenches, that he would say, oh, no, you got to have to stay over there, make sure you're there. Don't go

further this way, don't go further that way. And eventually David Cram and Michael Rossi were interrogated by the Displays police and they talked to them about Gacy and his businesses, and then the detectives asked them about the cross space and they told them, yeah, well he had us go down there and dig some trenches. But especially Michael Rossi when they talked to him about it, they said, look, we're trying to find this rob piece, this kid that disappeared.

We're going to ask you this specifically, would there be anywhere on the property that you would think this kid would be? And Michael Rossi told them specifically the Crows Space. Now why he said that, who knows? You know, we and you know there are men, may conspiracies that people were involved with the actual murders with Gaycy, but that's a whole other thing to get into. But supposedly these two were digging trenches from him, right.

when the police were chasing Gaycy down. There were times where he was probably so hopped up on pills that when they were chasing him towards the end the last day, actually when he was apprehended, you know, Mike Albright said, his head was bobbing and he's holding his rosary and they didn't know if he was going to kill himself or run himself off the road, or kill someone else.

And that's when they decided to take him down because you know, they they saw what was going on, and they knew that he had given some cannabis to a young man that worked at a gas station earlier in the day, and they said, well, we're just going to take them down for this. They couldn't even really communicate with their headquarters. When they finally did, the headquarters told them to do what you have to do. The tectives said, okay,

and again the heroes made the choice. They said, we're just going to take them down, and we're just going to use the cannabis, you know, arrest so and you know he even had authorities had found a bottle that had smelled from chloroform because one of Gasey's living victims, there were some living victims, and one of Casey's living victims, juck Rignall, said, that's what Casey used to knock him out. It was this rag soaked in somestance meat.

isn't it wasn't it the evening before? So then when he comes into the station, what are the kinds of things amazingly that you have in these documents that he starts asking the authorities. Yeah, like referencing about whether they've been in the crawl space.

that's when it started the beginning of the end. That entire day where Gacy was a erradic and everywhere they would follow Gacy. Gacy went to one of his best friend's house, where later they learned that Gacy asked one of his friends for a gun because what he wanted to do is go outside shoot one of the cops and then they would shoot him. Suicide by cop. That's how some of these criminals, you know, choose to die, you know, rather than kill themselves. They want to be

taken out. But of course his friend didn't give him the gun. So eventually, when they do arrest Gacy for the cannabis possession, they took him to the hospital because, as always, Gacy in the pass would claim he was having these stake heart attacks. So they took him to a hospital and displaims. You know, they tell the doctors trust them for everything, because we want to keep them here for as long as possible. Because while they're there, did the splains. Police are trying to get this final

search warrant, well, not final, the second search warrant. There were numerous other ones to come after that, but the second search warrant to actually go into his house and go into the crass space. So eventually they do, and that's when they found bones of two human remains in the crawl space while Gaycy's at the hospital, So they take them back to the police station and displays and they start this first confession again. There are going to

be three confessions from Gacy. The first one was the one with just the displains. Police detectives present, and Gaysey is asking them, well, did you go in the crawl space? Who else do you have here? He was trying to feel the cops out to find out what they knew. Did they have Mike Rossi and David Cram, What did they tell them? You know, did they find bodies? Gasey

was not a genius. He was a natural predator. He wasn't at the level of a genius wise is maybe an ath Holmes, but he was definitely a natural predator. So his actions didn't necessarily correspond with his intelligence. You know, he didn't even finish high school. But again, he was a cunning predator and that's what got him through all these things. So he knew he wasn't going to go in there and confess all these things. Even when he

read his confessions, he doesn't confess everything. Says somethings somebodies. Yeah, here's what I did. I buried them down there. I showed them the handcuff trick and then the rope trick, and then they were dead. And they deserve to die. These kids just wanted money from me. They said they would tell others that I was gay and they would expose me. And that's why I killed them. And he would go back and forth with his reasonings. It's very

difficult when you read the confession. It's not like, okay, it's not like a Dahmer. Here's what I did from day one to this victim, to all these victims, and hear their names. Here the detailed. But he wasn't like that. And then after that there were two other confessions that followed, one in the presence of his attorney, because as Geese's going on then he's trying to develop an insanity defense, trying to say, well, it wasn't me, it was the bad John, or it was Jack. That's one of my

other personalities. Jack did these things. So there's that even at one point during the interrogation with his attorney there where the detective Mike Albrecht is saying Jack, well, hey, Jack, we're asking.

It was kind of too early for Gaycy to have the multiple personality aspect in the lives of that down pat because Gaycy was It's hard for people to imagine, but Gaysey was one hundred percent normal physically, and all the tests that were done on him, you know, as far as his brain and his body were concerned, came back fine.

So here's Gasey growing up as a child and having these feelings attractions towards other men in the fifties and sixties, and it's being told, you know, by friends, family, churches, everyone, that it's abnorente and you know, you're freak. And obviously not to him directly because he hid it, but these are the signs of signals that he was getting from society. So he hit it just like he did throughout his entire life. So eventually, when he was arrested, he said

that basically, you know, these young kids were scum. They were you know, gay prostitutes, just hustlers who wanted to get money out of him, and you know, like other people, you know, he just saw gays as being disgusting, even though he was one himself. So in the end, it's my belief that Gaycy was created by his father's hatred of gays, his father's physical and mental abuse on Jaycy,

but also society. You know, society created this internalized hatred within John Dacy when society tells us that being gay is bad, and look at how it came about. Is that then you wonder that he buried his sex with his victims. He buried them just like he buried his being day.

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code murder for twenty percent off your first order now. Incredibly, In this book John Wayne Gacy Hunting a Predator, you include more details from this confession, things that I had not read previously in any book about John Wayne Gacy, and that being the idea that he called some of

his murders doubles. And in this you include a document where it's graphic descriptions in the confession of what he does when he finds two young men and takes them home, and he said they wanted to have a good time, tell our audience a little bit about bringing two men home and the tricks that he does and the whore that these two men encounter with Gacy.

to my place and play pool and relax. And you know, again you're talking about, you know, the seventies, and it was natural for kids to get in the cars with strangers, which is it still kind of shocks me because in the fifties and sixties you had this whole stranger danger thing, you know, which was actually created because of a serial killer named Albert Fish because he would kidnap and murder

little children. So in the seventies, though anything went, you know, they'd hitch hike kids with hitch hike, they'd you know, there were no cell phones, be back before dark. They would be told by their parents or whatever it is, you know, So this was natural at that time period, swinging all these sex parties. So it's hard to put ourselves back in that time period, but that's the atmosphere.

So anyway, sometimes Gacy would bring two victims back to his place, and in this one instance, Gasey talks about it, and he would call them double and the serial killers many would do doubles. Ted Bundy would do doubles sometimes, but what was unique about Gacy he actually did two

at the same time, just in one night. So he brought these two young men back and started drinking and having some fun times with them, and he took one of the young men into his bedroom, murdered him in the bedroom, came out, and then did the handcuffed trick on the other kid that was there, and said, all right, come in the bedroom here. I'm going to show your friend I just killed him, and then he would kill

the other kid. So and sometimes he would even murder one of these kids right in front of the other one because he would have them both in capacity with handcuffs. It's just an awful situation. And they knew he was telling the truth, Gacy because when they would go and excavate the crawl space as well, in my book, there's the excavation documents of all the bodies they found in the crawl space and on his property they would find two bodies, one on top of another. So it was true.

right there. So when it came to trial, as much as Gasey wanted to prove that he was insane, there was so much evidence that was actually still contained on the bodies. And also many of the bodies had underwear or rags stuffed down their throats and when they excavated the bodies, that underwear or the rags were still in that area around their throats. Whether it was skeletonized or if there was still issue remaining, they still found these

rags and underwear in their throats. Now, there are several different theories behind that, one of them of which Gacy said, one of his victims early on, Gacy had stored inside his closet and left the body upside down and blood leaked out of the mouth or part of the body onto the right. So Gacy learned from that, and supposedly he started stuffing rags or underwear in the mouths of his victims wouldn't leak anymore. Now, another theory is that he learned that at this morgue when he worked at

a morgue in Las Vegas when he was younger. But the other theory, which kind of also makes a lot more sense to me, is that he was living in this quiet suburban neighborhood. He was living in Norwood Park Township, which was near Park Ridge, where his attorney's office was. And when I filmed that these locations that night, you could hear a pin drop, even though they're Narrowhair Airport if a plane isn't flying overhead, there's no one out in the streets. It's quite as a mouse out there.

So I believe that Gacy also stuffed these you know, rags down their throats to keep neighbors from hearing them screaming while he was torturing them.

were living victims. So that's the strange conundrum that Gacy actually let some of his victims go. And the belief behind that is is that he may have let some of the victims go who may not have posed a threat. So, in other words, if there were victims that said, you know, I'm going to go to the cops and I'm going to tell everyone that I know that you're gay and that you raped me, these were the ones that he

would most likely murder. Who knows, you know, you know, again, there are some answers we may never know the actual truth behind you know, Gacy's actions.

Interestingly enough, you know, when you look at Dennis Raider, the BTK killer, before he murdered one of his victims, he put a pillow under their head to make them comfortable. Now, you know, how do you me? It's impossible to look get you know, the serial killer doing their actions. But at the same time, you know they either have children themselves. Look at Elbert Fish. He never swarked his grandchildren or his children, or never you know, laid a hand on

them to you know, punish them. But you're talking about a man who would kidnap little children, murder them, and cannibalize them. And this is that weird conundrum with serial killers that yes, they are maybe capable of compassion, but they're also capable of, you know, some of the most despicable actions ever committed by human beings.

all of the details and keeping detailed records. So they had to identify them through the methods that they had, like clothing that matched, you know, the identification from those reported missing. How many victims were identified and how many unidentified?

So how they identified the victims were either through dental records and if they didn't have those, what they did was they took all of the evidence that was either in Gacy's house or with the victims, jewelry, clothing, and they had you know, they put out a press release to the newspapers that said if anyone has a missing relative or loved one, you could come and look at these items to see. Some even came and said, yeah, those belonged to my son, and they found their son

alive later again one of the living victims. So in the initial case, there were nine victims that were not identified, but the case was reopened several years ago. So now the case is open and ongoing and the Cook County Sheriff's Department is in charge. Lieutenant Jason Moran is doing a phenomenal job and he has identified three of the nine which were unidentified, so there are six more still

to be identified. He even found victims that were alive, and he found victims that were deceased unrelated to the Gaycy case. So you know, again, people say, why are you releasing books and documentaries on John Wayne Gacy forty years after the case. Well, this is a perfect example. If there's anything that could be gleaned or learned about either Gaycy, his psychology, or finding some of these victims that weren't identified, all of that is important.

alcohol that he wasn't really of sound mind. That was the you know, but the prosecution, they had all of the evidence from all of their witnesses that showed he was of a sound mind when he picked he stuck at the pharmacy, you know, all the witnesses that were there, the evidence, like I said, the body with the rope still around its neck. You know, there was no way and even after Gacy was found guilty for fourteen years.

He was trying to appeal that. It's just as we discussed, you know, in a sense, I wished he could have been like a Damer and told the truth, because in a sense, Gacy could have made himself to be out the most evil human being serial killer that ever lived. But for whatever reason, probably trying to get appeals, he took back his confessions and never admitted to it, you know, until his you know, even to his nine day.

Our prison. Gacy also had a nine hundred number where people could call into the nine hundred number and listen to Gacy talking about the reasons why he was not guilty, disputing all the evidence in the case. And he also had people that would write him and visit him. And then when you would visit him, the guards were outside, a sell would take a forward picture of you with Gacy and they would charge you a dollar for the photo. Everyone once Gaysey was in prison, and everyone was making

money off Gaysy, the entire prosecution and defense team. It was all about money. Now, Sam Amaranti has a new documentary based on his book. Everyone involved in the case wrote a book. So it's interesting that after Gaysey was apprehended, everyone was earning money off of John Wayne Gacy. Years later they pooh pooh murdered Billiam the people that collect

this stuff. But when you go further back, when you think about it, was really all the attorneys that were you know, and law enforcement personnel that were the originators of you know, writing books and true crime kind of you know research.

of the court case by the prosecution. Letters to Gacy which people would write to him in prison show what you know how much of a serial killer celebrity he was? And another birth in dust certificates, but also Gaysey's completed bio review. So when people would write Gaysy imprison, it isn't pretty interesting too, and I heard demons rating does

this as well. So when people would write Gaisy in prison, the first thing Gasey would do is he would send you this blank questionnaire which would includes questions like what's your favorite color, what's your favorite sports team? But they also included what's your favorite sex position? Oh, of these other you know, little sexual innuendo questions, but Gasey filled one out himself, you know. And so when you read

my book, it's in there. And surprisingly one of his favorite songs is Send in the Clowns.

of the Ripper Crew, his name was Robin Gett. The myth is that he had at one time worked for Gaysey in the past and may have helped him with

the murders. Well, it's false, it never happened. So in my researches, one of my friends, Bruce la Man, who runs a psych called Killer's Cross Space, he had a letter from Robin Gett, and basically Robin get states in this letter that he was unequivocally never employed by Gaycy and he never knew gay Sy, nor worked for him, nor met Gaycy, so that puts an end to it. But you know, people like these urban legends of myth

and they'll still say that it happened, you know. And I'm still working on getting Robin get to, you know, talk to me on audio for my film version, because I'm obviously, you know, doing a film and miniseries too, and I'm referencing my own book. So as I'm working on my film and miniseries, I'm continually looking into my own book for all the evidence and research information.

entire life. Well, as I was producing the Gaycy documentary, there was so much material, and of course since I'm in Chicago and from Chicago, It's a little bit easier for me to access people and locations, and so I have a wealth of material and what was initially going to be a film has turned into a mini series, because I have at least enough material for a minimum of four to six hours to complete a mini series.

But right when the COVID nineteen hit, I was nearing the end of production, so there are still people and locations which I have to interview for the mini series. But I do have enough to release that at least like a film as a little teaser of the mini series. So I figured, well, while I have material, I might as well be productive and hopefully you know by this August.

The intention is to release a ninety minute film which concentrates on the house, the murders, the excavation, but at the beginning and the end of the film there'll be two to three minutes. It's as a prologue and an epilogue which kind of shows what came before and after, which kind of gives hints to the scope of the miniseriies and how much information there is before and after the house was discovered.

one of the most interesting cases to me. When I did read Terry Sullivan's book years and years ago, I just couldn't believe the magnitude of John Wayne Gacy and his crimes, and so, like you say, very much like yourself, I was a big horror fan, but when I would read things like that, I realized that this was certainly true horror, and it certainly had everything on nonfiction much stranger than fiction by a long shot.

and then what comes after being a celebrity. And I've got great interviews Walter Jacobson, who was one of the only people to interview Gacy, amp Minard, I have him on camera, Karen Conti, Gaysey's last attorney, Bill Kunkle, the prosecutor in the case, the two detectives, the surveillance detectives.

You know, so many people, and you know, it's just it's going to be great, And I'm glad that there is so much interest, because when I do my conventions or lectures, you know, sometimes people come up to me and say, oh, we're worried about our daughter or some because they're fascinated by the stuff, and I tell them, no, nourish that because there are future law enforcement officers, judges, forensic psychologists. We're doing this so we can try and

figure out what makes these people pick. I don't focus on the sensationalism and the gore. It's all about their psychology and the methods that they detective used to apprehend and convict these criminals.