INVISIBLE DARKNESS-Stephen Williams

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Mahler and Truman Capoti. It even has been twice arrested to do with his writing, once in nineteen ninety eight and again in two thousand and three, criminally charged with over one hundred counts of disobeying court orders and publication bans twice, but on trial over an eight year period between nineteen ninety eight and two thousand and five, and twice exonerated. The Attorney General, Michael Bryant, also sued Williams in two thousand and three as an enemy of the state,

alleging he was in possession of sensitive court documents. The lawsuits sought unspecified damages and the seizure of William's research and archives. Although the courts and police seized his computers and files, the lawsuit did not succeed. The dimension of these attacks on a writer are unusual even in totalitarian regimes, but in democratic countries like Canada and the United States, they are outrageous and speak to an ugly streak of

sublimated totalitarianism. These events not only turned the writer into a prominent character in the stories he was documenting too well for the authorities like but we're also vile attempts to denigrate that work and controversialize and even criminalize him. In recognition of saying, Stephen was given the Hellman Hammet Award by the Human Rights Watch. The award is presented annually to journalists who have been prosecuted by tutalitarian regimes

such as China and Iran. A book that we are featuring this evening is Invisible Darkness with my special guest, journalist and author Stephen Williams. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for greing to this interview. Stephen Williams, nice to hear from you, Dan, Thank you for returning to discuss Invisible Darkness again, the true crime classic, and our audience will find out why. Let's start because we have this introduction that really I think will be

a surprise to our American and international audience. I'll tell our audience where you were in your career when you heard about the arrest of Paul Bernardo, And when did you decide or we're enlisted to write about this case and become inextricably involved in this fified case of paulvin Iland color Homoka tell us about that.

newspapers when I want. I used to collect the papers and I look at them on a Sunday when I noticed an article in a tabloid newspaper, very long for a tabloid journal, A four five folio page described arrest to Paul Bnardo in Saint Catharines, Ontario, which is very

close to the American border. It's about a ten minute drive from Niagara Falls, both Canadian and Americans, and a sort of depressed town because it was reliant on the auto industry, and that was in some disarray at that point, and the idea that this sort of you know, well educated accountant person had been arrested suddenly in Saint Catharine's for at that point, all that was no one was that he was being arrested for the Scarborough rapes, a

series of rapes that started in nineteen eighty seven and included in the early nineteen nineties that he was being arrested for. Most in the bottom parts of the article, it described the fact that he lived in Saint Catherine's with his young wife, who was a veterinary clinic assistant in you know, native of Saint catherine'es. And I thought to myself, there's something wrong with this situation. There's being wrong with this scenario. Serial rapists are very rare at

any rate in criminal history. But the idea that this guy was down there living with a young, attractive woman and was in fact married to her. And I just decided to write a note to half a dozen publishers that I knew, saying, you know, the real question here is what was this woman doing while this man was out raping and pillaging?

So that's how it started. I was reading some newspapers on a dark winter afternoon up in the country, and there you go. The one thing to make clear is that there were two or three other newspaper people who did books on the case eventually, but no one had ever asked a question about the woman, and I didn't know what the situation was with her, or if there even was a situation.

loose from eighty seven till ninety four nineties. So let's talk about the situation in what we call the GTA, the Greater Toronto area now about six million people or so, and we talked about You've mentioned the Saint Catherines are a little small place outside of Toronto near Nagara Falls. So let's talk about the Green Ribbon Task Force that's assembled at the same time that Vince Bevan is in Saint Catharines.

that sort of thing. The interesting thing about Vince Bevan, who was eventually made the head they're the chief of the Green Ribbon Task Force, the task force that they established to look into what became multiple strange sexual homicides, was basically a hometown boy from that area whose father had been a policeman and basically a policeman's son from a policing family who was one of the few guys who had gotten an education and actually had a university

degree and had sort of become involved with information technology it, you know, and police applications for it. And somehow over a period of some months, because the soul was a mystery,

they didn't apprehend Lenardo immediately. The story goes back to even years where he was free and inexplicably free, and the MAgric Regional Police where Vince Bebin was employed, were not getting anywhere, etc. But at this point end time when he was arrested, he had been made the head of the Green Ribbon Task Force, which was a task force that refused to have anybody from the Toronto Police

Force involved. The Green Ribbon Task Force was formed from a series of smaller police forces in and around the region Hamilton, Burlington, Peel, whatever. But the Toronto Police Force, who were the people who actually identified Lenardo as a rapist, would refuse to have anything to do with this task force that was formed under Vince Babin.

He had been raping women in Toronto, and that interviewed him for a number of reasons, partly because he was a character very much liked the detectives who interviewed him. He was about their age in Toronto. These two detectives interviewed in both were university educated. That happened in Toronto.

They were young, they're very good looking, attractive guy, and when they sat down to interview Bernardo, they had nothing except a few people saying he looked like a composite drawing, and when they looked at him, they thought, well, he looks just like us. So no one Tenna went up. And the problem was, in those days, DA testing was a prolonged issue, and they had hundreds of samples from various rapes and murders and whatnot in the forensic center

at the Toronto Police Force. And since these guys didn't have a feeling about this guy, the old samples they had continued to sit on there on the shelf and the lab. In the meantime, Bernardo walks away from this scenario, thinking that he's invincible because clearly there's nothing going to happen.

room with Tammy's clothing videotaping. Tell us a little bit about that before we talk about Jane Doe.

with that. The next project is that it's very hard to describe a lot of people in Hollywood and in television have had very great difficulty sort of even comprehending the aspect of the story. She decides her parents aren't worthy, they don't care about her enough, and she decides she'll move in with Bernardo in this sort of pink Cape cod style house in Port de Lucy on the water.

And actually I even have lost track of what came first and what came second, but certainly one of the next things that happened in the period of time that they were planning their wedding, which they were deeply engrossed in for a period of about four months. This incident, Tammy Lynn's murder, happened in December nineteen ninety and by end of April, if I'm not mistaken, they were married

in Port Dalusi in a old church and whatnot. But in between, Paul Bernardo did a young teenage girl in Burlington while he was out for license plates to steal and brought her home. Her name was Leslie Mahoff fifteen year old normal schoolgirl in Burlington, Ontario, and brought her back to this house they had in Port de Lucy, and for about a three day period, both he and

Carla sexually assaulted Leslie and then murdered her. So that happens, and they dismember her body in the basement, put her body part in case them in cement, and dump a reservoir that feeds the Saint Catharine's called Lake Gibson, and

go off to their wedding. And on the very day that they're being wed in a sort of white horse drawn carriage deal which includes one hundred of their closest friends and family, at a quite lavish sit down dinner at the Queen's Landing, which in Nagron Lakes, lovely hotel that many Americans were aware of. And during that very moment, the body parts are discovered in Lake Gibson by a fisherman.

Because Bernardo had been responsible for making sure that they had bought to put the body parts in needed time to coll as, and he didn't give it enough time, so a couple of the lids that contained these body parts separated in the water of Lake Gibson, and neither of them had done enough research into the Lake Gibson and how it worked reservoir, you know, raise it and go down according to the usage. Some of these cement blocks in which the body parts were based were close

and they separated and the fishermen found them. So the police came and found these body parts of someone they weren't even sure it was missing in you know, on the shores of Lake Gibson. So by the time the police figure out who the girl is, of course, there are a number of missing girls around the one hundred mile radius they figure out it. Leslie Mahaffi, Bernardo and Homolka have already gone on their honeymoon to Hawaii and

come back. So now we're at the stage where both of them think that they're uncatchable and invincible because nobody seems to know anything about what might have happened this poor girl. Leslie Mahaffy hemy Lynn situation is behind everybody, and now they're just living in this lovely house in Port de Lucy coming back from their honeymo very bizarre situation.

Leslie Mahafi was kidnamed. I think I somehow remember that Bernardo asserted that Mahaffi was reciprocal, sort of reciprocal gift for Jane Doe. But regardless, it's all in my book

and very I knew detail. At some point in this incredible insanity, Carla decides that she needs to do something for Paul, something special for Paul, and she lures a young girl that she'd met at the veterinary clinic and the pet shop she used to work at, who also is fifteen and strangely looks very much like Tammy Lynn,

her sister, dead sister. She lures her over to this house in Porteluci one evening and does to her exactly what she did to her sister, so that Paul could rate her sister with impunity, and that is she got more hal athane from the veterinary clinic and esthetic, which she well knew was very dangerous to use with anyone who had eaten anything or drunk anything, or at any other suppressants or tranquilizer. So whatever, she got exactly the same drug and used exactly the same pills. It was

helthane and the tamazepam or something a strong sedative. And she put Jane Doe down in their new house in Port Dealusia and called her husband on the phone that said, come home, dear, I have a present for you. And so they came home. And the other thing that I haven't mentioned is the video taped to all of this. They video taped tmmy Lyn. And now he comes home and finds her with fifteen year old you know, and the two of the rape and assault Jane Doe and

videotape the thing and this particulation. I think's pre dates there they're going on the honeymoon, because I think it's months after the death. It's less than six months to the death of emy Lynn and just a bit before Leslie Mahaffey is murdered. And so Jane Do doesn't die. She's fine, she's sick for codation wonders up, and then they go get married and they go on their honeymoon

to Hawaii, comeback. There's no consequences from anything that they've done, and time goes by, Paul restless, Carla goes and recruits Ame Doe again, and a kind of relationship between the three of them develops that last brought the summer of ninety one, whereby Paul and Carla keep encouraging Jane Doe to have relationships with him, but she won't any further

than giving Paul oral sex. So eventually they both get very frustrated and they actually put her down again the same way they did the first time before they're married, before the honeymoon, and this time Carlo perceives that Jane Doe stops breathing and calls nine one on the way she grew Tammy Lynn, but then calls them right back and says she's fine. So also learned no problem and no one fallows up on this, and so that incident passes.

Jane Don't walks away finally from this bizarre household and survives, and nineteen ninety two, the two of them decide that they need to find a new sex slave, and they plot to go out and kidnap a school girl Saint Captain's School, and that's when Christian French.

And they go out on the street on a very nice afternoon, the Easter weekend, and they go cruising looking for someone to kidnap, and they see Christian French walking home from school. Her walk home from school, it's about five minutes. They pull off in a church parking lot and pretend that they're looking for directions, something that's happens very very frequently in Saint Catherine's because of the way

in which the city has been designed. And they work her heart and they kidnap her right in broad daylight and take her basically five or six minutes back to their house in Port Lousey and proceed to rape and over the Easter weekend.

And that Christmas in nineteen ninety two, somehow mister Bernardo was and he hits Carla with a one of those black steel flashlight to such an extent that her mother and other people realize that she's you know, she's in some kind of progression, and it's decides that she will leave bernardo household and she will go to her uncle's place and live in Brampton, and everything will be forgotten and everything will be fine. At least that's what's in

her mind. There's no background of battery or record of any kind of problem in their marriage up to this particularly moment in nineteen ninety two, after French is dead and things have gone haven't gone awry. Actually, nothing's happened to implicate anybody. They're none the wiser. But he dissembles, he's not problematic figure, he has no tolerance. Obviously crazy, but not legally so. And he hits her one night,

and that's their relationship. In other words, the first thing she doubt, she said, is leak, and she goes up

to live with her aunt and uncle in Brampton. In the meantime, the Metropolitan Toronto Police, the police who have not been in the Green Ribbon Task Force that was formed under Vince Bevin and has all this time VI investigated unsuccessfully and has twice interviewed Paul Bernardo and cleared him, as had the Toronto Police through and the Scarborough rape investigation, Toronto Police and the forensic lab in Toronto identify Bernardo as the man who is raped free of the twelve

fourteen victims of the Garborough rapists. Right, so they they have this is the definitive moment for the Toronto police. They finally hold the case. They got the guy and down to Saint Catherine's and put him under surveillance and decide they're going to arrest him in very short order. But of course do this have to trade general for

the state in Canada. The state is the province. The police in Toronto, like the police from New York, decide that they're going to go into a place New Jersey, and they're going to take somebody out from under the New Jersey police and rest them and take them back to New York to prosecute. Well, that isn't going to happen, and that the Trade General insists that the prosecution the

people involved in those decisions exists. That they put Bernardo under surveillance and decide what to do, and time evolves. In the meantime, Carla has left town and gone up to live in another small urban suburban development with her aunt and uncle about an hour and a half away from this place. So the Metropolitan Drown Police are very, very eager just to erect in. Never mind all of

this political constance about jurisdiction and whatnot. But Bevan and the Green Ribbon Task Force, the local people that have been charged with this, consistent that this is their caller that they need to get in. So there's a political issue involved here that's impossible to talk about. The bottom line is, as the Metropolitan Toronto Police are being held out, they decide that part of their job would be to

go and interview his estranged wife, which they do. They find her up in this suburb and they go up and interview her. Carla doesn't say anything to them about what actually has gone on. She doesn't confess, she doesn't do anything. But what she does realize is that she could be in deep shit. So they come up to visit her, and she talks to them, and in the process of talking with them, realizes that there's a problem here.

These people have Actually they're actually onto himvolved in these murders. And that's good for her because all she wanted to do is forget about all this stuff her mind. She just made a mistake. She buried the wrong man, so instead of coming clean with Toronto police, she shut and jives and the moment they leave, she phones a lawyer in Niagara Falls and happens to be a very prominent lawyer, perhaps the most senior lawyer in that area, who does

nothing but criminal law. She knows this man because his wife brings their dalmatians to the vet clinic where she worked, So she phones him and the wife organizes for her to come down and see his name is George Walker. Come down and be George. And she actually has the germinity to ask the detectives from Toronto that we're interviewing her to drive her to her appointment with George Walker amazing,

which they do of course. So story that is so complicated, although these kinds of stories seem to be in vogue now, or how else would he Thrones be in its six or how would the Wired have gone for seven? I mean, it is extremely complicated and nuanced. But at the root of it is the fact that policing it's a bureaucracy. It's not an effective, you know, force for security or deterrence bureaucracy. The moment that you get in more difficulty and more conundrum the moment you start mixing territories.

but for two counts of manslaughter. Enough happens, and Baard's arrested by the Green Ribbon Task Force and Vince Bevin and of course charged only with the murders of les Imahafi and Christian French. And basically that's what Invisible Darts documents.

Rather very traditional true crime story that follows all of the characters, whether they're perpetrators, they're victims, or the very many vestating bullet in the Expert Witnesses program, the psychiatrists and the psychologists, the lawyers and the judges, the senior police, senior media. It's just an epic story of a disaster.

a cornerstone for this book. It's a cornerstone to understand a little bit about the perfect victim story and how important that story is to this story.

aunt because it was mad at her. All of these girls, with the exception of her sister, who is totally inexplicable, were strangers. There's no solace or no explanation in the idea. You know, the fact she was a battered woman and acting out of the battered woman's syndrome and therefore couldn't leave him or anything. The fact is Carla, the moment she was hit first, the first time she was hit,

she left the marriage. That's totally anesthetical to the diagnosis of a woman with postmatic stress disorder or battered woman's syndrome. But the greatest fiction in all of this stuff is that there's a certain kind of woman who is very susceptible to a sexual Say this, and the anomaly here is the compliant victim description, the compliant victim of a sexual Say this, and that's what the government decided was the best use of a theory in the case of

Carla Hamulka. It wasn't a question of what Vince Bevan, the head of the Green Ribbon Tesk Force, wanted, or the much more powerful and larger and confident Metropolitan Toronto Police wanted. It was a question of how the government was going to deal with the situation that was so high profile and so inexplicable that they quite figured out a resolution that was going to earn everybody. And then

somebody brought up this idea. It was then quite a new idea of the compliant victim of the sexual stay. That's one of the behavioral science. The behavioral hesed to call it behavioral science. It's behavioral fiction that comes out of Quantica. But those couple of detectives that worked with the FBI, Hazelwood, Douglass, who came up with it. I'm not sure if Douglass was already gone by that time.

A guy named Rynane Hazelwood, a few others had come up with this theory based on the interviews they conducted. The ten or twelve cases that don't have any real relationship to the details of this case had come up with this theory which had just it hadn't been published. It was in I can't remember what the academic journalists call it, but it was in review, peer review, and

it was about to be published. The idea of the compliant victim of the sexual say this, this was like a God said to our government, really, Vince Bevan and the Green Ribbon Task Force, because it gave them an explanation whereby they could excuse Carla for stuff that was inexcusable, right, they could rationalize inexcusable stuff to show the contrast in this trial is that now the government needs this deal, they need these facts to align.

unusual and incredible. As the prosecution witness star witness against Bernardo, the defense of Paul Bernardo wants to cross examine Carla

Hamlca to benefit Paul Bernardo, regardless of the deal. And so in a bizarre almost Twilight Zone type scenario where the government has their deal and she has basically her immunity, she's supposed to tell the truth and we won't get into all this memory convenient memory lapses that she has, but tell us about what Rosen exposes and by that time what everybody in this courtroom basically does know about Carla.

trial where Carla has been dealt with. She's already serving her twelve year sentence and for manslaughter, for two counts of manslaughter, but it isn't three counts because that would make her a serial offender, so she doesn't. She's not on three counts. She's on two counts, ensuing it twelve year bit, which would in Canada see her out if she really wanted to pursue it in as few as

five years. And she's now coming back to testify against her husband, which is altered of a sort of Dasatian shark, you know, insane asylum play that the government is putting on for the public. Because the prosecutor says to the jury and to the gathered in the courtroom that please remember that miss Almalka is not on trial here. She is a witness for the prosecution. In fact, they are both guilty of first degree murder, but she is a

prosecution witness who has been given immunion. So that kind of trial starts and then for the next four.

already been dealt with. So at the end of this and I mean, really, if people are that interested in the dynamics of this, they really have to read the books, which have the most comprehensive and complicated, but I think readable descriptions of everything that goes on in everything that's said.

But at the end of the trial, as the trial is concluding in the summer of nineteen ninety five No J. Simpson trials still on, the Bernardo trials concluding on Labor Day weekends nineteen ninety five, the prosecutor, the chief prosecutor says to the jury end of the court, that doesn't matter what Carla Homonka said. It's irrelevant to the conviction

of Paul Bernardo. Now thing she has said matters, we don't care because it's not relevant to the conviction of Paul Bernardo in law, He's correct, and in fact that's what happened. Bernardo was convicted, Carla went back to jail, and now it's the tenth Today, this year is tenth anniversary of her release from prison, absolutely free and clear. Yes, what do you say.

did or what you released? Tell us about that.

order breaches is insane. It doesn't happen in my case what they alleged, which was I had seen. When that matter came up in one of my trials, one of my two trials, the press reacted the fact that the Crown admitted like one hundred and sixty two people who had actually seen these restricted videotapes. And if the prosecuting office admits that the Attorney general were I'm looking for common word that's common do in the United States here.

If the chief prosecutor admits that, how many people actually must have seen them? If one hundred and sixty two people have seen tapes that are allegedly restricted, how many possible? There's probably five hundred who have seen them. Now, the point is I actually didn't see these particular tapes because there was only about an hour and fifteen minutes of them, and they were very specific to a certain format videotape

associated with this trial. So again, the government in this case and the police spent tens of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours trying to create a subterfuge around what they were doing.

I was half a million dollars in debt. I ultimately said, Okay, my lawyers advised me Edward grief practice law in North America and sterow, he's f lee bay. He's of that

ill side and keep fighting. It's entirely you. But let's think if you want to spend the rest of your life doing this, or you want to just take a small insignificant hit that's not even the equivalent of a left traffic violation like legal lefture, so penalty to do with my You know, you got to look at a situation like this and say to yourself, how in God's name do these books keep setting all these years? How come that don't you ever sued the best for libel

or misrepresentation or slander or anything. How Come the entire government of his country came against him on criminal charges?

family had with a guy named Tim Danson. Every time this case got into the press, money would flow into Dance in office for what was it called, I think towards the end the Integrity Fund for the French and Mohafe family. Nothing ever. I mean, it's a sad, sad thing to say. But the person who took the most advantage of those people, the most advantage on a large not more advantage than the people who've killed their daughter.

But afterwards, the person and people who took the most advantage of them are the lawyer that represented them and the government used them as how politicians they're so lived, they're so fat to hide behind the easiest issues, and in this case the skirts of mothers of dead gris. It's so easy to be there, and they do. And at the time I think that all these forces were in play and I was just a big target and made mistake. Listen, not perfect. I made mistakes in a

sense on number of occasions. It was just a large sitting target and they were there and they took advantage of it. I don't think it's issues of freedom of speech. I think that the issues that caught me the date of Britain pain that versus Husan had to do with personalities an individual. It wasn't business, it was personal, if you know what I mean, right. I think it's certain individuals saw opportunities or had taken umbrage, was saying I had or whatever. It's impossible to see it in larger

societal terms because they're not there. I mean, they're just so it has to be personal. And you know, in case, one of the senior who was involved the filmmaking to do with Carla Hamalka was ended up as the assistant Deputy Minister of the Attorney General. I happened to mention in my summary and Invisible Darkness that he had been having an affair with his second here while he was managing the Hamalka business down in Niagara Falls, and that he left his wife and three children and married her.

And it was only in the back end of the book, and where you summarize traditional crime what became of all the players in the case. If you write a good book, a good crime book, you've got a lot of very prominent players and characters, and you've developed them, and in the end, out of a proper form you summarize what's becoming. You know, they left, have they died, what new job

have they taken, What's happened to them? Et cetera, et cetera. Well, in this case, mister Siegel happened to be the man who was responsible for order a police investigations at the very moment that, in other words, he hadn't left the Ministry of the Attorney General or the Office of the Attorney General, at the very moment that the first issue were called for by Tim Danson, the lawyer for the

Families of the Office and frenches. It was dancing that called for me to be arrested and investigate, and mister Siegel was sitting in the bird seat where he had the power to order arrest. I suspect that another man would have ignored it.

get you arrested. I know he tried to ruin your journalistic career. I mean that was obvious by the press conferences. Did on behalf of the families and this irresponsible. But what I wanted to say too, is that he wasn't just doing his job. There was people in this story that weren't just doing their job.

I can't, at least when I was paying attention to this of Tim Dance and they're actually wanted in court, when he was representing the family, every motion that he'd brought in front of court was turned back. When he went to the Supreme Court for leave to appeal, the Supreme Court appeal something that a lower court had said is unappealable. It's not a matter for the courts. It's a matter for parliament. It's a matter for lobbys. If you want the last change, we'll go and stop wasting

your client's money and lobby the government. When he ignored that advice and was the Supreme Court, and allegedly, I mean he said publicly it was in the newspapers stuff like that, that it required eight hundred million dollars for him to mount a Supreme Court challenge. When he mounted that challenge, the Supreme Court wouldn't.

don't follow this stuff at all. There aren't many people that follow Supreme Court rulings or pay much attention that lawyers are doing or who's doing what to whom, And in the end a lot of people that are headly by it one way or the other, because actually it's one of those areas of life you should pay a little more in inche to than most people do. You're absolutely right. I mean, I'm as guilty as the next man of using that uprom and they were just doing

their jobs. I always say it tongue in cheap, but that's not always evident to somebody.

so does England. But Canada seems to not have that market, or at least what I see and I'm going to get you the weigh in is that based on a bunch of factors, the reluctance from the newspapers to sort of play up but rather play down some of these things, these cases, the important case depict in case Bernardo Amalka,

other important murder trials. Do you really do you see a difference that I see in the public's acceptance of these cases and their interest in following those cases and learning about those cases and being up on those cases. You see a difference, a vast difference, or any difference at all between the seemingly the two societies and the response to serious, incredible crime like these evidence by Paul Bernardo and Carlo Milca.

effect on their heartbeat, their system, the caffeine would. Canadians seemed to want to deny that anything bad ever happens, or organized to make it look like law and order prevail. So therefore the presentation nor the way it evolves is there. But I think some of the strangest crimes committed on the planet have been committed by Canadians. I mean, no of a character like Olson and what he did and how the authorities dealt with him, i e. Buying out

you know, he held them where the victims were. They give a thousand dollars each free victim to his and child. I mean, how Canadian is that? And besides that, Olsen not only was a peculiar criminal, but he was also a peculiar and irrepressible maniac inmate. There has been no one crime like the Bernardo Harmonica crime in history, certainly not since they did it. There is a kick in

England that was almost coincidence. In time, there's Fred and Rose West case, right, but it is so bizarre and so out there that it's not comparable for instan if you look at class structure and a number of other issues age class fashionness. I mean, there's really no relation

to that. As far as I can tell that the Rose in West case and the Moors, there's three cases or four cases that have any similarity to the Bernardo case, and nothing like it has happened since it's so bizarre, and Canadians also produced of the most despicable, disgusting crimes like that magnatic guy in Montreal who cut up a perfectly innocent Chinese student sent his ball hearts to the

conservative and liberal offices. What the fuck's had about? You know, I haven't seen anything like that out of the United State.

murder spectacle that he laid out for authorities with Susan Sarandon's jewelry nearby. And it seemed like after that case, Magnauta was influenced by Colonel Williams and yes Paul Bernardo and picked in, but wanted to outdo in one murder everyone else by being over the top, by videotape, being cannibalizing and defiling this body, sending it to government agencies.

Of course, there's nothing like that in America or the world, because I think Canadians are competing with Americans very much like we would in entertainment, comedians, artists.

going on today. I mean I used to say when people would become you know, there was so much emotion at the time I was writing about the art homeof the case that even you know, for instance, Margaret at even question my son and even when she was writing Alias Grace, why doesn't he just stop this? Since they're execute again to this extent, why doesn't he, you know,

just not do this. You know, Canadians they don't seem to have any perspective on anything ex polite literature, and it uses but one of the men I ideally admire and have no one over the years, off and on or go and said, I don't have a secret chart at me that the heart exists or any of the matter. I'm just, honestly, always just been a guy trying to write a good book and write about something thankful.

in this case at all, so I'm confident. Anyway, I want to thank you very much Stephen for coming on and talking about Invisible Darkness and your involvement in this incredible case. And we just touched on it, and I'm sure readers will be motivated to go into these books and.

So this this is the story that demonstrates so much about killers, but also demonstrates so much about the motivations of jurisdictions and police and government agencies and everybody with their needs. And again it opens up an incredible door for incredible discussion about so many different things in one book, in two books, covering so much history, and that it's horrifying and true regardless is very essential and important history.

I want to thank you very much Stephen for coming on and talking about your incredible book and Invisible Darkness.

have time to enjoy them with your loved ones. Get started at Hello Fresh and for a special holiday treat, use code Holidays sixteen to get up to sixteen free meals. That's code Holidays sixteen at HelloFresh dot caugh this thing, Dad.