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You are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good evening. This is your host Dan Zupansky for the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them. The behavior and activities exhibited by offenders the distinguished lust murderers from among other types of serial murders are presented through a multiple case studies analysis of the offenders, psychosocial histories, and offense patrons. The lust murderers examined include Theodore Bundy,
Jeffrey Dahmer, and Dennis Rader BTK. The study advocates that a primary function of the development of typologies is to provide aid and assistance in the investigation of violent crime, specifically violent sexualized homicides. The book that we're featuring this evening is Eradophonophilia Investigating Lust Murder with My special guest author and doctor Janet McClellan. Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Doctor Janet McClellan.
It's my pleasure, Dan, thank you, thank you very much.
Very very very interesting book and very very fascinating subjects, equally fascinating interview. I anticipate now give us a little bit of just your background. I alluded to it and even messed it up a little bit. But you're a professor, and you have a PhD, and you're a doctor. Tell us a little bit about your background before we talk about this incredible study.
Certainly, I spend years as a law enforcement officer investigator. In specific, I was also the executive director of the maximum Security Facility for violent sex offenders in the state of Kansas. Like I said, I spent years in law
enforcement as well. And of course, while I was working in both law enforcement and corrections, I was pursuing my various degrees, ending up with, of course, as you noted, the PhD and in criminal justice, and I'm currently the chair for the master's program in criminal justice with Kaplan University.
Very very impressive. Now you say you started off in law enforcement. This is not typical in terms of you start where you started, to your starting point and your endpoints. So it's was there a turning point at some point in your law enforcement career? How did you really go from the law enforcement all the way to where you are here, which is almost a completely different position. Obviously, it's very different.
I began as a law enforcement officer in the city of Leavenworth, Kansas, when I was nineteen, and I was an undercover narcotics investigator for the city of Levenworth. I'm sure that you're familiar with Levenworth through its historical background is having a number of corrections facilities prisons specifically, Yeah, particularly you know they the famous or infamous uh, Federal
Penitentiary Leavenworth. Uh. My father was a deputy warden at Kansas State Penitentiary when it was Kansas State Penitentiary, and of course as it became the corrections facility. So I suppose I came by my uh both my career or both of these careers, uh in criminal justice rather naturally.
Yeah.
Right.
As a matter of fact, I have to tell you, as it's been a longstanding uh joke, if you will, that my father and I had that between us, we had a small business in regards to criminal justice, since he was a deputy warden, uh, and I was in law enforcement. That I would catch them and Dad would keep them.
Yeah, catching, catching, no release, Yes, gotcha, no.
Kids, catching, no release. So anyway, UH So I began UH at that period of time. And quite frankly, the uh, the police chief with whom I worked in Leavenworth, was very strong in his opinions about the necessity of education, particularly higher education for law enforcement officers. And as a result of that particular influence, and I had been pursuing a bit of college at that time. Anyway, Really, I have to credit him for that, that continuation of interest
in higher education. And I suppose you might say that after the bachelor's and mass and program, and that I just sort of it seemed a natural trajectory from one thing to the other used for no other reason than at each point of that academic advancement, the subject matter in which I was engaged was so fascinating and it lent itself so well to oh, not only the sort of organizational processes and environments in the various criminal justice agencies in which I was working, but because of the
kind of course work that I was doing in criminal investigation, and that lent itself handily to support really the investigations that I was doing in the field.
Right, Yes, so you could really relate to the things that you were learning, the lessons that you were learning.
Absolutely absolutely, And I found my interests within the criminal investigation aspects, but then also such things as investigative process management, good policies, those sorts of issues and applied to so yes, each step seemed to, you know, work itself together with the last.
Now, this, this book examines lust murder. But before you came to this, you obviously had done extensive research, uh just prior to this or prior to this, what what were you other than lust murder? But I mean you obviously studied serial murder. What was your area of research, say, prior to this lust murder examiner?
You know, right, that's that's a good question, because actually serial murder, violent sexualized homicide really became the focus of my interests, research, personal readings, as well as directing my course of studies. Gosh. In the actually in the mid nineteen seventies, mid early mid I was a police officer in the state of Washington with the campus police at Ellensburg.
I had been hired there, and when I had when I arrived, a young woman who had been a student there by the name of Susan Rancourt had been abducted and slain by that time by an individual whom we did not really know but ultimately turned out to be Ted Bundy. Right, So at that point and I at that point I had also I rather fit the physical
description of the young women that he was killing. So between spending a wee bit of time UH as bait, and then I also had, because of my arrival there, my interests in some of the early research that I had begun at that time, just in homicide and investigations. I was able to become a member of one of the multi UH agency task forces that were formed UH to UH to investigate UH into those murders, and so I had a great opportunity to work with those folks
and and learn a great deal. The FBI came out and provided a significant amount of training UH to to those of us that were in some of those UH well, the agency task forces, and so really that my whole direction in terms of interest was formed quite early on because of those murders that were taking place. It really began with the question simply at that point in time was why, why, why are somebody doing this? How what are they doing? Why are they doing it? Why are
they doing it in this particular way? What what are we seeing here? And what is what we're seeing? What do those things mean? So really that was the start.
Well, they're by far the most dramatic of the killers is the lust murderers, and obviously they're obviously leave more questions and answers, especially years ago, and with the work that you've done, it's it's not that there is a comprehension, but there's more of a comprehension on the why and where that came from and identifying those characteristics that are
shared between these type of killers. What I wanted to ask you too, is that tell us a little bit for those that don't know that where the conventional wisdom came. Because what's interesting, I guess in this context is that tomorrow evening I'm going to be interviewing Mark Olshaker, which is the half of the writing team of John Douglas, the famous critical profiler. So tell us where the bulk of the material came, and then we can talk about the previous studies and then the studies that you took
off from. Obviously research it evolves, and so tell us where some of this first information came, and then tell us about the development of the understanding of less murder. And then we can maybe introduce how you start guarded and why this book that investigates lust murder. And we're talking about twenty ten, so the most current information.
Okay, what I was, what I've been doing, of course for years, is following the writings and the research of a wide variety of it broad authorship of folks who were researching and writing about essentially lust murder and or serial murder investigation, and some of the earliest writings again that would take you back into the or the mid to late seventies when it was essentially in its infancy at the beginning of if you will, when the FBI
had their behavior what they called them, their Behavioral Science Unit, and of course, you know, folks like Douglas and Munn created various tables and analyzes, Keppel and others homes and homes in an attempt to try to look at the data. And it was it was small data at that point. I think the FBI did is the behavioral analysis documentation on what was on fewer than thirty persons who are
identified as serial murder. Of course, there's been a longstanding discussion or argument, if you will, as to in regards to serial murder. It's it's full and complete definition in part is it is it cereal? If it's only two? Uh? Do we wait for four and wait in terms of defining it or identifying it as such by the investigators. And they're various and sundry people that fall within those those arguments. For whatever reason, I rather advocate that TUSA.
Sure uh to call it cereal.
UH. The word serial is a more contemporary UH use of that word if you think about cereal as being simply serial murder or serial burglary or serial armed robbery or what we're talking about is a continuation, a successful continuation of a certain type of act. I say successful because the individual is still free uh to continue that
activity over time. UH and and place so in looking at that you know and essentially over in that that growing data and the UH the various ways in which those persons, both academicians and UH and and UH criminologists and other types of of investigators into the issues UH examined. The question of essentially the one that I had was what are these people up to? What's going on? Are
there means are ways of identifying? You know, the whole purpose in law enforcement is an attempt to protect individuals. So if you can figure out how to more quickly identify the UH an unknown suspect to or identify maybe what might be a cohort of types. Therefore the idea of typology, so that you can narrow your investigation into something of a reasonable and practical UH best benefit side
in terms of the identification and capture. Those are really the kind of key issues in regards to serial murder investigation. Having said that, UH lust murder does not necessarily mean that an individual has committed a series of those types of of murders. You know, that type of murder exists violent sexualized homicide, which is a sort of the perspective that I that I take on it, UH is a
can be just a one incident. But the way of the best ways perhaps that conducting the investigations all go back to the identifying of the the types of violence committed against the individual who is the ultimate victim. What was done and things that occur at a crime scene that might give indication as to the type of individual that committed it and therefore help you work on your investigation.
Now, for those that are listening to what we should explain a little bit here too. And this is interesting to me and news to me as well, at least from what I've read. And again it doesn't come anywhere near any kind of research like you describe and you undertake.
But what I found interesting was that that what you talk about in your book is that lust murder it involves say it and what people normally talk what I would think too, and I had to wrap my head around this was that you talk about redefining that as not only the violence that was perpetrated on this victim before they were murdered. Are say, for example, very simple example of torture before murdering there So there's evidence with.
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That is that you say, indicate that say the displaying of the body, imposing of the body, necrophilia will say for example, or mutilation are still should be and are defined. This is what you say, and hopefully I'm not paraphrasing or getting is wrong that this is part of the sadism that the offender was trying to inflict on his victim. And so that's right.
Where the individuals who come along and discovered the offense, you know, whether they're civilians or the long firstforcement personnel themselves in that regards, it's a as an attempt to inflict uh psychological harm, uh to shock, to appall.
You know.
Yes, so it's this.
And this will this would extend to all the all the behavior. We'll say, for example, Albert Fish writing a letter to the victims family and saying how much he enjoyed the killing and eating their child.
Yes, he would have enjoyed writing the letter. He would have enjoyed anticipating them reading the letter.
Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, so I thought, and so that's a new you you have redefined this or is it this? This has occurred in the development of the understanding of lust murder.
It's as a result of my my the search that I did. This is the way in which I have come to define that regarding what occurs in that those purpose fult displays or actions that I think that we can fairly easily define as that which focuses on that individual's desire intent to inflict pain. Yeah, that's based on the researchs out there, and I I just simply drew that conclusion based on what was being presented.
Right. So, for example, if you were to see a posed body or displayed body, and you were to see some of this post murder offence's offense activity, you would then be able to classify that as information or use that as information to gather more evidence to create this profile on this offender.
Yeah, well the all of the yes, it's a piece
of it. Think of that that a display, just that the idea that the body is displayed is a piece of information that essentially that what what one is looking at is a piece of a constellation of artifacts and artifacts that exists a crime scene, and and and and quite frankly, the I have to advocate for what keppel and and and Walter uh It developed is the idea that the last crime scene and a murder situation, the last crime scene is that the crime scene in which
one finds, locates, and discovers the body. And when I say that's the last crime scene, uh, Keple and Wall advocated for and very very clearly wonderfully to find the great and very specific possibility uh that within any criminal event that factly there's five crime scenes easily that that can occur. And by that I mean that the the place where the body uh exists is just the last scene.
It's not the first scene. It is the one of which there is much focus necessarily uh and and correctly, but it's only one scene that that exists within a number of thenes of any bio on crime. So UH, let's say this is where the for example, if an individual is a victim is uh taken from let's say a bar downtown. And I'm thinking of particular case that occurred in Kansas City, probably about a decade or two ago.
A decade ago, the young woman was taken from near a bar in the downtown location, transported some twelve to fifteen miles outside of town into a rural area, killed, and her her body set on fire. Okay, so where the body was found discovered quite frankly as a result of neighbors seeing fire in the field, if you will, that was the last scene. The transportation itself from point from the point of the bar to out to the field was itself a scene. Therefore, you have a vehicle,
a car attract something that transported her. That's a scene, and you have the acquire the place at which she was acquired the inner around that bar, which is the scene in and of itself that needs to be examined and discussed as a part of the investigation.
Sure, now with your examination, what I didn't put in the introduction but is very evident in your book, in your explanation, is that you took the effectiveness and the efficiency of the typologies of less murder as researched by I'll just name the researchers Goodwin in two thousand, Homes and Homes in two thousand and two, Keppel and Walter nineteen ninety nine, and Coxus, Cooksey and Irwin in two
thousand and two. And the book is focused or you do examine the cases of Theodore Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and BTK Dennis Raider. Tell us what.
You I mean.
Obviously, there was a wealth of knowledge to be gained by examining the research that these dedicated researchers did. But what was the main issue that you felt was lacking? Obviously, and and one of the reasons why you undertook this examination yourself of lust murder. What was missing in your mind once you went through all the information and from all your own personal reading sources.
My that's a that's a good question, because what these those four theories are theorists if you will, that have created the typologies of uh uh uh serial murderers. Each one of them has, if you will, sort of a four type typology for set typology in which characteristics of particular offenders. You can say that one, for example, one its organized, one is organized, which is the simplest profile,
and and and in act. But uh, each one of these very fine researchers, theorists have the typologies, and they're
rather competing typologies, if you will. And it was that that competition that was a part of my initial My question was, you know, is it true that any one of these could better identify, explain uh the psychosocial development, the uh the psychological history, if you will, that we know of of these three individuals that you just mentioned, Bundy and C. T. K and Jeffrey Dahmer, could any one of them explain them identify h could they fit better?
Right?
And so what I did was sake beaten by way by doing these cases of these three individuals, essentially based on all the information that we have about them, looked at how well do they fit in any one of the types within the typology is one better than the others. And essentially, for me, the upshot was that after I went through those particular examinations, that wasn't the match matter that any one of those typology sets better did one
over the other. But what they did do was to provide to if you want to put them together, you had a much more comprehensive analysis that one could use. So think of it as a net if you if think of his nets. Use one net and you're fishing, some fish can get through the holes in the net. Another net was in that the holes of the net becomes smaller and again and again. And so that's essentially
where I arrived at, if you will. At the at the end of the research was that all four of these, rather than competing, are complementing each other.
Right, Yeah, so you want to put something comprehensive and dispel with some of the stuff that, as you put it, might be incongruent.
Yes, And one of the things that makes it just a wee bit difficult, or you know, they can, is that each one of these typologies and the theorists devised names for the categories of those types that do not. It doesn't it's not you don't do a one to one match. So you have to be able to identify if I'm if I'm calling somebody a h an asocial offender or disorganized, is that somebody else's sadistic murderer or
psychological abriant in whatever other category. So it's finding that how well each of those matched within so that you get a clearer definition of a more comprehensive profiling opportunity than you would using any one of it.
Okay, I think I understand excuse me now, Other than the general infamy and or fame of these three serial killers that you decided to study specifically Bundy, Dahmer and Dennis Raider, why did you pick those three? We know you had alluded not allude to, but you spoke about your connection early on with Bundy and but tell us why you picked these three cases specifically.
The breath and that So the information available for each one of these individuals, uh is significant? We have when I say we there is available one can acquire through some research and some efforts, and a great deal a great deal of information about excuse me, uh, their their their childhood, their early development, what people saw in them, thought about them when they they didn't identify them as
you know, murderous. What we know about their crime specific behavior, what ultimately, how ultimately the victims were identified victim number one, number two. Just because you find the body that this is the first body you find, does not mean that the first victim that exists, sure for that individual. So a great deal of great breadth of information uh about that person, uh, psychological profiles, i Q tests, UH, high school UH grades, you know those kinds of things uh that available.
Did you review personal interviews? Because I know all three of those characters did a fair amount of interviews as well.
I yes, I did an incredible amount of reading on all I think it felt like it anyway, on all three of those individuals, so that I could pull from uh from you know, those the interviews that were conducted, whether they were they were conducted when they arrested. It one point for exact, for example, Dominer spent time in
in jail. Uh he was on probation, and so he had h some comprehensive ev outs that had been done on him through the court system, much like the other So you know, there was a great deal that one could delve into so you could find out, you know, for example, if Douglass says that in his research and it says that a person who does this thing, this kind of murder, they have an IQ under rockily most often found to have an IQ under say one hundreds, right,
that they do manual labors. If that and the other, well, how well does that fit with what we know about you know, any one of these three individuals, right? For example, for example, I know that you know that they may always make much ado about the fact that they say, you know, Jeffrey Dahmer was quite quite bright. You know, he had an IQ of one hundred and fifteen, right,
which actually is not that much. No, the average IQ of the federal inmates serving time and the Bureau of Prisons is one hundred and fifteen.
Yeah, well there you go, right.
The.
Research regarding the average IQ of the successful bachelor's degree person. You know, somebody who succeeds and get a bachelor's degree here ten years ago, it was one hundred and twenty, so you may have you know, he's a little bit brighter than maybe the average if we wanted to play from ninety to one hundred and ten is average but that's not superstar material. No, no, no no. And at the same time you have Gary Ridgeway, who underwent a number of IQ tests and he is a IQ. His
best IQ test showed him that eighty nine. Yeah, and then he has if you will, if he counts the number of bodies in terms of cereal offenses, he has an extraordinary record. So it's not about IQ.
No. Picton was like that too. He's a half wit as well, and he's got forty nine or something to thirty three, forty nine, enough enough to prove his prowess. I guess, well.
Whatever it was that he was, you know, proving or doing.
What was the last name again, Picton, Robert Picton, Vancouver, all the women on. He was a pig farmer and so yeah, yeah.
I am familiar with that. Yeah yeah, just he figured out how to do it. And that really was the key. If we look at Jeffrey Dahmer and he talked about serial murder and and the way in which he committed the murders in terms of analyzing it, and you saw him, I think it's almost the way. It was almost boring. It was like going to work, sure, you know, go out to the gay bar. Offer somebody some money or beer on the way you know, at you know, to go home, Give them some beer, have some drugs in
the alcohol, take pictures, kill them. Justmember time and time and time and time and time again.
Yeah, Yeah, there was an interesting It was an interesting story too because Wrestler and Douglas are both from that the early days of doing the profiles on the you know,
the thirty serial killers or so and uh. But they really had a difference of opinion, to say the least, when Wrestler was ready to testify or did testify on Dahmer's behalf to say that he was insane and Douglas argued that he wasn't, and Wrestler characterized the I guess the again they've talked about organized and disorganized, and Dahmer went from in his own testimony, went from organized, very organized and careful to sort of erratic and and disorganized.
Yet he was going to be evicted from his apartment, so when when you read the interview, it's almost like he was stressed out because he had to move. But certainly.
Right if you look at Dahmer's early history, his childhood, net the the family dynamics first of all, just going to Dahmer himself, he was a fool book.
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Committed alcoholic, committed to alcohol rather by the time he was fourteen. Now to be a fully committed alcoholic by the time you're fourteen, there's been other stuff going on, something moves you along that particular path. Now, Dahmer stated, and his father denied that he had been sexually molested by a neighbor boy when he was ten.
Also, and that sounds that sounds reasonable because he Dahmer in his in the interviews, was very forthcoming and that was not as much like a lot of these guys. Wasn't blaming everyone in his family and everyone on earth for his behavior.
That right, right? Well, you know, also when one looks at Dahmer's early history and he's alcoholic at fourteen, it's not so much as a masking of he obviously he'd been sexually molested, or he was the states that he was sexually molested. That's going to traumatize a child. There were other things going on. There were physicalities, points of particular physical attributes that began to appear, characteristics in his
his very early his preteens, in his very early teens. Uh, the way in which he moved is court lack of coordination, a stiffness of frame, a flatness of aspect, all these things if anybody was looking or knew how to look, and that's always problems. Knew how to look. Examined, should have good could have give indications that you were looking
at a early forming schizophrenic. And as a matter of fact, the the the medications that he was given while he was in prison before he was killed, are those sorts of medications that are given to an individual who has schizophrenia. So by the time he gets interviewed, he's balanced.
But at the same time, the vast majority of schizophrenics don't commit murder.
No they don't. But on top of a number of these other complications. Again, it's think of it as a constellation, right of things recurring, and so with the early family dynamics. Uh, they if you will on from what I've seen, it seems as though there may have I'm not a physician, I'm not a psychiatrist, but they're benchmarks that indicate that the likelihood of schizophrenia, the alcoholism that continued throughout his life, of course until he gets into prison, and that's really
about the only time. Uh. The again, the family dynamics were significant. He goes off and is trained by the military, and at first they put him in the MP division to be trained as an MP. Uh. He doesn't make uh, the firearms qualification, so that then he's transferred over uh and becomes essentially a uh whatever metic is. So he learned some further interesting information about body dynamics. So it's this constellation of things culminating to a point where then
you may have some some actionable processes going on. But he committed his first murder during his US what the summer after his high school graduation, that's.
Right, yeah, yeah, Now tell us because you know your book explains the the route or the progression from fantasy, violent sexual fantasies to this lust murder. When we're talking about Dahmer, Well, let's stay there because there has been He was very candid, or it tried to be anyway, or it seems so that he wanted to be very
forthright about what happened. And he went on to say, oh if I knew, and this was a compulsion in your study for this book, how did what was the fantasy that was first they first developed within Jeffrey Dahmer, And then what was that fantasy? And then how did that fantasy in real terms progress?
There isn't really a one I have to tell you that the research and you probably haven't fallen across it in the book yet, uh in terms of you know, in looking at at the book. But when we talk about fantasies and violent fantasies, violent sexualized fantasies, UH, there's been actually a number of very good, UH pieces of research that have asked about and fantasies and violent fantasies
of non incarcerated persons, including college students. And there's not much difference, right, which makes sense if you stop and think about the UH. A large number of the videos that are in the video store, sure you know, UH many of them are violent sexualized fantasies, whether the war theme or UH the eyes, the hills have eyes, and the rest of that whole genre. Uh kind of saying, Uh, A lot of those are uh sadistic, violent, sexualized, homicidal, uh entertainment.
Mm hmmm. I've never really thought about it that way. They should have no I the same way.
Again.
Well, I see what you're saying, but you know, the phenomena is much more than that's just regular folk with this Luca magnonirom Montreal that that killed the victim apparently online and then uh did atrocities to the body necrophilia online. Incredible amount of followers. I read all kinds of comments from people that were worshiping him, wanted to sleep with him, wanted to follow him, talking about his allegiance to Satan.
It was incredible, the amount of followers among people that were commenting, among people that were interested in this guy.
Aful lot of those movies get purchased or and you know, rented daily.
Well, what I was going to say is the phenomena is now is that there's actual gore sites that posted Luca Magnata's video and other videos showing either cruelty or murder or beheadings or so It's incredible the phenomena, like you said, college students is surprising, but regular people take that walk that edge, I guess psychologically to and find entertainment from the sadistic treatment of people, sometimes fictional it's
confined to, but often non fictional. Like I said with the look a magnotic case.
Well, if if we consider history and the history of violence and torture in the world, in the in the United States and the mid late early late in the eighteen hundred, seventeen hundreds into the early nineteen hundreds, the executions were public displays. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, there were exactly The part of it was too, purportedly because it was supposed to be a social lesson. At the same time,
there there were people there for entertainment. It was that which was scheduled entertainment and could have easily and it was perceived as such, go a little for they're back in history, and yes it was entertainment. The unspeakable acts by other what we considered otherwise ordinary people is a common theme in the history of the world. Muh think of alb Rock.
Yeah, sure, certainly, certainly right now the murders. Pardon me, when we talked about when when you talk about the murders of Ted Bundy, A lot of people that don't know the entire story and and certainly, uh, some people don't know about the necrophilia and visiting the bodies and some of the stuff that now is obviously is regarded as uh this, you know, he's regarded as a less murderer.
But to the person that didn't know some of those facts and just saw a killer bludgeoning or beating with a pipe or a bat or whatever his victim, they wouldn't see what somebody might classify as this as a lust murder. Tell us what you found out about what you discovered about Ted Bundy and in regards as Ted Bundy as a case of lust murder.
Okay, let me begin with well stating that that lust murdered. The phrase does not indicate that the individual was doing violent sex. Okay, it is sexualized violence, which means that the purpose of the acquisition of the victim, the violence against the victim, those things are all part and parcel of that which underpins the motivation. Uh. Those things that we attribute to lust or the sexualization of the actions are fairly secondary to the harm, the injury, the humiliation,
the death of the individual. So it's it's as the old saying used to go. It says, using sex as a weapon, it's just yet one more weapon, as much as the ice pick, the knife, the gun, uh, the bob wire used to bind an individual's hands, uh, the guaranting of the person. As with bt k ah, death is the culmination of sex is an aspect. So lust murder just doesn't mean that lust Uh. Sex hasn't really that much to do. What you're looking at is that it's an an artifact of the crime as a whole.
And think about that lust if you will. Well, let's let me back up. Human beings exist on a continuum of violence, right in terms of who it is that that we are uh. And when I say it, so, it's not these behaviors are not siloed. The Jeffrey Dahmers and the ted Bundies of the world are not removed from the human environment, from the human continuum. They are on that continuum. What it is that they do, as violent and as abhorrent as it is to the vast
majority of us, it is still all human behavior. And so think of it as the continuum that on one side, if we can say so that on one one hand you have the mother terrasas of the world and that of that type of behavior and interaction with human beings. And on the other side, on the far end of the other side of the continuum, you have the pole
pots and hitlers and soloins on that side. And then right, okay, And so then Dahmer and Dennis Rader and Harold Shipman of England exist on that continuum between those extreme poles, right okay, And so do their and their behaviors towards you know, their behaviors towards others. It's a part of
that continuum. So, as you note in the book, I'd rather argue against the fact of thinking, particularly for the investigator, to not think about or our attempt to categorize these individuals as monsters, because once we do that, we take them out of the human category and consider them the other and then as such we lose sight of some very basic issues that we need to be able to
consider and be mindful of an investigation. For example, Dennis rad complained at one point that he wasn't able to acquire a victim that he wanted to because his son had a game that day. Okay, Okay, he had other life to attend to. So they go to the grocery store, they go to the launder mat, they go to school. Dennis Rader went to work every day. Ted Bundy went
went to school, took classes. There are these other life factors that play in and one we're not aware that on that continuum, and with those individuals and investigations we lose points of process and investigations.
Well, that's that's interesting too, because the killers themselves retained their humanness. That was part of their ruse in that that they were very charismatic, at least enough to get many victims to do their to comply. So obviously, if you want to right.
Right, well, you know, at the same time, you know that how many times have you heard from a person somebody gets arrested for some type of violence up to and including murder, and the people who lived next door to them go, we seemed like such a nice guy. Sure, I would offer that it's not so much that he seemed like a nice guy. They didn't know him. They
weren't paying attention. But you know, anymore than perhaps we all pay attention or lack thereof, of our neighbors, we're not focusing in that particular way, uh, because we don't have to. We're all rather rather busy people, you know, with with our own lives, and so we're not assessing
or analyzing UH people's interactions. And in most regards, UH, most people are going to assume, unless given some sort of notice, that someone interacting with them does not necessarily mean them any harm, right, right, you know, And at the first sign or indication that it might be, then that that's that's you know, if you feel that in an uh contact with an individual that changes your demeanor that towards them, does it not?
Oh? Certainly?
Certainly?
Right right? And so your radar goes up at that point, and do you have done? Yeah, if you don't have that indication, or maybe you don't have a good radar, then one can you find themselves now on the wrong end of a situation.
Right now, we're talking about serial murder. You had some interesting statistics in your book. He says that six thousand or more homicides go unsolved in a ten year period, is it or a one year period? You say? That
represents thirty three percent of annual murder rate. Okay, so it's per year, Okay, six thousand, and you agree, basically agree with the FBI's assertion that to be about sixty three serial killers responsible for approximately seven hundred and fifty murders, almost a dozen each on an average out So we're talking about lust murder being a small sub category or
a small segment of the total amount of murders. What kind of percentage of do you do believe that are are lust murderers and what would that come in terms of actual numbers.
Well, as you know, the murder rate, homicide rate in the United States has been going down significantly since the what mid eighties, right, So I think in the mid eighties or somewhere around twenty six twenty eight thousand a year per year, and it's back to the level I think if I remember right, as about sixteen thousand, which is kind of reflective of the approximate proximately sixteen thousand a year, reflective of what the mid to late nineteen
sixties was. Having said that, having said that, in the mid in the mid nineteen sixties, the solve rate, the solve rate identified bring to justice arrest the individual who committed the murder solve rate was ninety percent, pretty good.
Incredible yeah, yeah, it's good.
Now. However, on the average in the US is I believe about sixty five percent now the type of if you will, bells and whistles that we had available to us UH nationally in the in the mid nineteen sixties, there was no computers. There certainly were no cell phones, databases or any of all of those kinds of informative process is available. But since the mid nineteen sixties we've been losing about one percent of solve rate a year. I'm sorry. The population has drawn up significantly as well.
What do you and what do you attribute? What did you conclude? You can attribute this to.
What I What I've found is that, for example, in the mid nineteen sixties, if if you were committing less murder, there are homicides being committed in that and most of them involved some sort of relationship issue. And I say relationship, I don't know. I buy you a beer and then I don't. I decide I don't like the way you part your hair. After several after several beers, okay, I lose a pool. Yeah, it's a domestic violence gone to
its worst extreme. Right, We're we're high school buddies having an argument and whatever, or you know, it's kind of maybe some lacho things, but what society was in the nineteen sixties, and and the kind of country that we were getting to be very mobile, and then we became highly mobile and as a results of me and then fractured as a result. I live in I live in Oregon.
I was raised in Kansas. My parents, on the other hand, married and lived in the same location in Kansas from the time they were well, they were teenagers when they got married. Sure they then they settled on in the same place that my father's father lived. That doesn't happen. That doesn't happen as much now as it did then. Again, we're highly mobile in some ways, as much connection as we have, like you and I chatting now, were more disconnected socially in terms of the way in which we
perceive each other than we have been before. Okay, the society has changed, and society has always changed. But what has happened is that some of the processes, if you will, for policy, see conceptualizations in regards to best practices or investigations have not changed.
I see.
Okay, And so where society has moved along in some ways, we have not bels and whistles and tools are nice, but they have to be rightly applied. Kay, it does no good to find that there's some DNA as a scene if you don't have anything to connect and relate it to, or if some policy process inhibits you from moving the investigation forward in any significant way. And then there lastly, it's not necessarily least the ball is a
direction or sourcing of funds for investigative purposes. The number of identified serial murders in the United States, those persons that we've identified bring to justice, but they're in court, they got arrested. We've been able to identify that there's two three bodies associated with their behaviors where we saw a peaking an ever annual increase of numbers associated with that excuse me, up until two thousand and one. Funds have been done differently with now since two thousand and one.
So you don't have those the some of the resources, people and money going to that type.
Of processes, right despite the problem they're not there's any solution for its cutting resources. Yeah, So there's definitely a need for something like what you've done with this book in terms of a valuable resource because it's one of the few bright spots.
Well, thank you, it will. What this what the book tries to do is by putting these tools together and a I hope relatively comprehensive way and showing that there is a more comprehensive way of using utilizing these various techniques to help investigators identify, but also saying that there are some processes as well, anyways to support those investigative practices, so that if they do come across a scene that is represented in the with more comprehensive modeling that they
have to they can have an opportunity identifying it. And that really is the first key in any investigation is what am I looking at? What is the crime?
Yeah?
You know it? Is it a burglary? Or was it? Was it a rape ultimately or a homicide? And that one of the vesicles of being able to commit that was that one had to commit the burglary to you know, to breaking into the house, the residency, the building in order to affect it.
Yes, now this book has come out in twenty ten, and was there any surprises on how this book has been utilized or in any pleasant surprises on how well this has been received or adopted.
Well, I don't know. I don't know how great its distribution has been. I know that I've received emails and uh uh discussions from folks in in Europe, South America, up into uh Canada, various places in the United some various in the United States. So I'm I'm assuming that it's had something of a reception. There's not there's not a lot of money pouring in.
Right, welcome to publishing here right right.
I don't think it's going to make it's not going to make me rich. But I didn't write it for that reason. I wrote it to create a tool or one of the tools, uh and an invested kit, if you will, that that might be of use to the flips there in the field doing the works.
Well, certainly, certainly, And and you know, the thing is to the understandability of this book and what you've written. And of course, when you're taking three of the most you know, some of the most popular or infamous serial killers of all time to study as well, it really does have an application because many people have read true crime books, or read articles or read a lot of
information about those murderers. So I found it interesting you did, Dahmer and then Bundy and bt K, where your average person wouldn't think of those as lust murders. So I found it interesting that you put that that you dispelled those myths and and made a very interesting case for lust murder and its definition. And it's a fascinating, fascinating book and an incredible subject as well, so very the
true crime market. The people that read the books are fascinated with the kind of statistics that you have that just thirty three percent of these murders annually go unsolved, and then a certain percentage of those seem to be these less murders, and with the phenomena of people wanting to be famous, it seems that certainly this phenomena has always been around, but we still we get to see more dramatic examples of it, I think.
All right, you know, And the thing with the thing about reported murders is that that is just it. It is the identified discovered homicide, which means that we have a body, or we have some indication that that particular sort of violence took place, but it's only those about which we know. So and the thing withterial murders, you know, as I think you mentioned earlier, is those are the
ones we know about. Is you recall during one of the interviews that was conducted with Ted Bundy, one of the FBI agents asked him if it was true that he had killed was it twenty three young women?
Right?
And he replied, you might be closer if you put a zero on the end of that. Now, whether that was truth the Bragg Bravado, I don't know. But all we know is about those that are discovered. These are not the Neil miss And what they're wanting to do is get caught. Doesn't stand, doesn't stand at all. It's a nice fiction. But the problem is that it's problem is that in the fiction category, they don't intend to
get caught. That is the idea. They intend to continue to want to be successful at therefore not cost for doing the harm that they do.
Well, it's especially evident when you have a killer like Jeffrey Dahmer who was learning and practicing to dispose of his victims entirely, not leave anybody at all, confine his atrocities to his own home. And he's not the only serial killer that has done that. So when we talk about people missing, like you say that those are the
bodies that are found. But these same type of blust murderers could well be the kinds of killers that are disposing of their bodies once their usefulness is finished and then just keeping trophies or revisiting, you know sites. So there's like all of these folks did, like all of the three that I looked at, and people don't necessarily And now I don't think you asked at one.
I mentioned one point that jeff not Jeffrey Dahmer ted Bundy committed necrophilia. Remember that continuum concept in regards to a continuum of violence. Uh, for persons that are committing serial murder. Uh, necrophilia is just on the continuum. The last point of the continuum before total usually seems to be totally compensation of the individual committing the crimes, is uh cannibalism.
Yeah.
So uh, that's just that's sort of like the next last step and doesn't mean that, of course, all these steps can take place at a point, but much of this violence that they commit is progressive.
Yeah, yeah, each new Yeah, And in your book you really do cover the development with the in these cases as well. You go more into the childhood and talk about maybe not necessarily triggers but behavior that seems to
somewhat explain anyway. Obviously every individual is different and responds to different trauma or events, but it certainly is gives people a really interesting background to see the progression, as you say, into the unspeakable, and then even a further progression as they descend almost into madness at the end and get more frantic. And especially with the case of Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer, oh yes, well.
And.
Yeah, BTK might be a wee bit of an exception, although his his full set of prelictions that he had terms of behaviors were quite remarkable. But uh, and and those in which he was I think I mentioned in the maybe I mentioned in the book, and that the the officers who were interviewing him began to interview him wondering how much information they were going to be able to get from him. Yeah, and then they couldn't shut him up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well I heard you on Berl Bears say that very thing, that, yeah, you couldn't shut him up. After that, I was like, oh, no, what have we what have we started here? Yeah?
Yet you know, uh, and it's it's that, you know, ironically amusing kind of of point, but it was he saw himself perceived of himself as being kind of a member of that law enforcement community.
Oh of course he did.
You know, he had his bachelor's degree in criminal justice, but he was never hired by a criminal justice agency because he was not successful in the taking the psychological test.
Yeah, yeah, lucky, lucky. Yeah. Who knows what what kind of serial killer would have been if he would have had a badge?
I mean, jeez, well he did, and that was the problem. He had a badge in that small community, and he was because of that. He had this assumed authority, boy, scout leader, you know, president of his church, all those sorts of things that when we look at a person, uh, in that kind of paper process, excuse me, we assume good things. Yes, certainly, right is essentially were some of the masking.
Features well, certainly too. We talked about ten Bundy and rural law enforcement professionals working at a suicide hotline, and unbeknownst to her, here's the most infamous serial killers of all time showing empathy and friendship and.
So yeah, practicing, practicing, yes, practicing absolutely, yeah, Yeah, fascinating.
Well, Janet, I want to thank you very much doctor Janet McCloughan for this interview talking about dorato phonophilia, investigating lust murder. It's been very enjoyable and very eye opening. A great book by the way, and thank you very much for this interview.
Well, Dan, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Well, thank you and you have a great night and hope to talk to you again soon.
Absolutely, thank you again.
Good night, thank you, good night.