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You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
Brad Hunter has spent over thirty years writing about some of America's more horrific crimes. In this new book, he enters the mind of John Wayne Gacy, the real life killer clown often said to be the inspiration for Stephen King's evil Pennywise. In it, Gaycy lured victims to his home with the promise of work or a warm bed, and then duped them into putting on handcuffs, claiming he wanted to show them a magic trick. He would then rape and torture his victims before killing them by suffocating
or strangling them. Twenty six were buried in the krawl space beneath his home. Others were buried elsewhere on his property, while a handful were dumped into the plains River. Gaysey was executed for his crimes in nineteen ninety four, but many questions remained unanswered. How many victims were there, did Gaysey act alone? And what drove John Wayne Gaysey to murder? What caused the seemingly normal Gaysey to sexually assault, torture and murder at least thirty three.
Young men and boys.
Drawing on his many years experience investigating and interviewing perpetrators of terrible crimes, Hunter seeks to understand what drove Gaysey to unleash a reign of terror in suburban Chicago. The book they were featuring this evening is Inside the Mind of John Wayne Gacy, The Real Life Killer, with my special guest, journalist and author, Brad Hunter. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Brad Hunter,
good to be here, Dan, thanks for having me. Thank you so much and very timely to have something about John Wayne Gacy, something new for people to read.
Thank you so much for this interview.
Let's start right away with John Wayne Gacy. His father, John Stanley Gacy, and he was in.
World War One.
Tell us about John Stanley Gacy before he entered the war and what happened, and.
What was he like when he returned.
Well, people said that John Stanley Gacy was a fairly normal guy. He's quite a bright guy, fairly industrious and with even tempered before he went off to the killing fields of Europe in the First World War, you know, and listed and was sent overseas and reportedly saw a significant amount of cournage while he was fighting on the Western Front. When he returns to America, he is, you know, as many people are who endure that kind of horror.
You know, he was a changed man, shorter tempered, and just not as pleasant as he had been.
You talk about alcoholism though, that plagued that marriage, and he was characterized as being quite abusive and was haunted by his time in World War One.
Yeah, well pretty much pretty much every evening. I mean he married fairly late, but for the time anyways.
But you know, every evening he.
Would go into the basement of his nice neat home in Chicago and get blasted. And you know, down would go a reasonably normal scene person, and up would become a monster. I mean, John Wayne Acy himself, you know, would see you know, I had seen his mother slugged around by John Stanley and her dentures flying through the air, and that was also something that you know, he bore the brunt of as well, and obviously it.
Played some role in the development of his character.
You write that early on he was sickly, had a heart condition, and so he was told not to participate in any sports at school whatsoever. And some of the things that he was drawn to were in opposition to what his father thought was a masculine thing to do.
Can you explain, Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think John Stanley Gacy's view of manhood was significantly different than what we might see today.
He named John John.
Wayne after the movie star whose famous tough guy and swashbuckling, even though he didn't serve in the war. But yeah, so he had his image of manliness, whereas his son, his only son, was interested in baking and hanging around with his mothers and sisters and being in the kitchen and sewing and things like that, things that in the nineteen forties America that wouldn't have been necessarily seen as the way to go, particularly as him being a sickly
child and less than robust his father. And I would certainly say probably a large part due to his boozing. Would he would you know, sit and stew about his son down in the basement. He'd come up and he'd, you know, he'd hit him at Casey, you know, got cop wearing his mother's clothes, you know, once and for a number of times, and that, of course, you know, needless to say, didn't fly well.
And you know he you know, point blank, you know, called the mississi and any other epithet that you know may target his masculinity.
You right too, that he was plagued by passing out or fame, and his father thought he was just a hypochondriact and didn't add to his masculinity whatsoever.
So when he was twenty years old in.
Nineteen sixty two, you're right, did he took off to Las Vegas.
He knew he had a cousin there.
But even there he passed out in his car overheated and was taken to the hospital. However, he did find work there, and he did find his cousin who was a prostitute, and so he did find out a life outside the one from his own oppressive family, and even got a job there for a time at a mortuary, and did experience something sexual as a result at that morgue.
As you write, yeah, Gaycy.
Got a job at a moorg He lived with his cousin for a while as a hooker.
Cousin for a while in Vegas said he.
Got a job at a morgue, and one evening he was I can't remember whether he was sleeping there or whether he was working there, sleeping overnight there he crawled into the casket of a young man who'd been killed in an accident and was sexually excited acy himself. Leader said that he was sexually excited by the incident, and you know, that seems to be putting him, you know, starting to be putting on the path.
I don't know, you know, too many twenty year olds who want to climb to the casket with a dead body for sexual reasons. So, yeah, he gets going around this time.
I mean, obviously, you know, over the years, it becomes clear that he's a man at war.
With himself, you know, as to his true nature and what.
America would have expected in the early to mid nineteen sixties.
You right, though, that he returns to Chicago a few months later, and he rolls in college and he takes business courses and works in sales in nearby Springfield. He dresses well, he utilizes jewelry, cuff links, and he's a masterful fundraiser. It ends up he's organizing charity shows incredibly, involving the band the Kinks from England. And he lived with his aunt and uncle and that's where he met Marilyn Myers, a daughter, a wealthy man, businessman's daughter, and
they were married in nineteen sixty four. And you write around that same time, however, he had his first homosexual encounter, and you write that he became involved with the jc's tell us what the JCS were for those people that don't know what service clubs were, and what did JAC manage it to do, and how well the JCS were, as you say, you know, service club of the time, with their emphasis on young business people men, young businessmen under forty up and comers who wanted the network make
name for them, a name for themselves.
And do you know something charitable you know, you know obviously in these things, and at that time, you know, there was a significant amount of boozing and partying involved. And Gacy threw himself.
Fully into the JCS and saw it as a way to network and become bigger than he actually was.
And certainly for him it did help that he, you know, he became very well known in the j c's.
At the same time, his father in law is wealthy and he owns three Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises, and so he gives this opportunity of a lifetime to his in law, his son in law, even though he doesn't really like him too much, but he still wants him to manage his KFC restaurant in Waterloo, Iowa, and so he gives him the equivalent of the home and salary worth one hundred and thirty thousand dollars today.
You're right, yeah, And he is successful.
He's socializing, he's organizing theme parties, he's a successful fundraiser
and works with the JCS. He knows a lot of people, he's networking with a lot of people, and he has a fascination with the police, as you write, and joins a volunteer force that just supervises businesses at night, putting, you know, taking the pressure off the police force, the real police force, as you say, but also enabled him to get some paraphernalia in a car that sort of looked like a police car and a red light and siren, so that he used in sort of a comedic bit,
but as you write, sort of a foreshadowing of things to come.
Yeah, what you see in Waterloo is I think, you know, making that kind of money at that time and place. You know, with a lovely young wife at home that that would be enough. But you see the emergence in Waterloo also you're not only gay Sy the monster, but
as Gayzy the bullshit. You know, he insisted that people call him colonel after Colonel Harland Sanders, the founder good thank you, Fried Chicken, and he was a real colonel and which of course was a mail order sort of thing that he sent out that says, you know, and that's what a Kentucky colonel is. You can send off in the bail and say I want to be a Kentucky colonel. And then you know he was a Kentucky colonel.
So you see the emergence of Gacy here as the bs or as the fabulous, and the police stuff is also part of that. And you know he would drive fast through the streets of Waterloo. He did that at a at a j c's convention in Phoenix as well.
That when he started packing a gun, and he took the role of auxiliary police officer extremely seriously, and I think maybe you know, he wasn't self aware enough to realize that what he was doing was that he was practicing the routine that would terrorize Chicago years later.
You're right that he would have boys over at his home even when he was at this KFC, and he would have pull let them play pool. But also at the time, you write for people that don't know, pornography was sort of a thing that very few people had access to, So it was a big thing that you might be able to entice young men to be able to come over and watch some porn. But also he made he would come on to the boys and then if they rebuffed him, he would chalk it up to
that he was just joking. But a fellow jc's son named Donald, who was fifteen years old, again he offered him to watch some porn, and the boy came over and he was attacked by Gasey tell us about these May nineteen sixty eight, and just previous to this that his father had told him, You know, son, John, I was wrong about you. And now May nineteen sixty eight, and he has sodomy charges.
Well, yeah, he was married in nineteen sixty four.
And this John Stanley Gaysey these he starts having a two children, a boy and a girl. And the John Stanley Gacy, you know, this is the and his son is very successful.
This is these are the fulfillment of his deepest wishes.
And so writing around Waterloo in John Wayne Gacy's brand new Woldsmobile, father, you'll finally admit. So you know, while John I was I was wrong about you, and he basically apologized. Then they talked about many things and whatnot. But that man's a lot to Gacy at the time, but not enough for him to sail straight. I mean, unbeknownst to everybody, he would have these boys over.
As you say. And one fellow j CES member Gacy sawm out on the street when after the boy and had an argument with his father or something like that, and Gacy, you know, came off like big brother, you know, getting the car.
Your dad's all right, you know, And then he got out the booze and the porn and one thing led to another.
But the kid flipped it on gay Sy and starts blackmailing him and Gaysey of courners doesn't like this at all, because at this point too, he's making plans, mulling going into politics, because this is something that he's developed an interest in. And you know the only thing that he still remained at odds with with his father, who's staunch Republican. Gacy was a Democrat.
But Gacy at this time, you know, he's seriously considering running for counsel and then maybe Beyer and then maybe Congress and Waterloo, Iowa. Well, here's this kid who he's paying off and buying guitars for and different things like that, who's going to ruin everything? And you know it pretty much does police arrest Gaysy and then it comes out, other incidents come out and Gacy pulled everyone he was innocent, and a lot of people believed him until the jury came back with the guilty verdict.
You know, people found it very difficult to believe, and you know, you look around and read and talk to people and whatnot. You know, there's a lot of people that are still in shock that the gay cy Day knew was this monster.
It's interesting too, at that point that another person comes forward with another complaint. Shortly after that, Mark Miller and he had worked at the KFC and that he was attacked and Gasey let him go, and so he hired someone as Dwight Anderson, another worker, to beat up Miller for three hundred dollars. And then this Dwight Anderson eventually told police that, well, Gasey hired me to beat up this guy. So then now he needs a psychiatric evaluation.
And at that time he's diagnosed with antisocial personality. But he still denies any responsibility for anything. These people, these boys say whatsoever. And the judge he thinks he might get a reasonable lenient sentence.
However, the judge gives him a ten year sentence, doesn't he.
Yeah, he sends away Gaycy for ten years, which I mean shocked everyone, you know, certainly certainly had shocked John Wayne Gacy. But Gacy Gasey turns out, he gets thrown into the you know, Iowa State prison. But you know Dacy, as is his nature or was his nature, you know, he would take lemons and turn them into the lemonade. And so he becomes you know, the head cook model prisoner.
He establishes a jc's chapter of all Bloody Things in the Slammer, which you know, is packed with people, and you know, he arranges for the construction of a mini put of course in the prison grounds, so he's nobody really knows too much about what Gasey got up to her why he's there.
But he becomes a model prisoner.
And it was during this time, I think Christmas Day nineteen sixty nine, that is that John Stanley Gacy eyed.
Isn't clear.
I'm not sure whether it was cirrhosis or a heart attack, but he dies.
John Stanley Gacy dies. Gaysey desperately wants to go to the funeral, but that idea is torpedoed, which is, you know, interesting enough, because he hadn't been in that long. I think probably a year later they would have let him go. But he gets sprung. He doesn't get sprung for his father's funeral, but he isn't in jail very long.
I mean, as I said, he makes the best, the absolute best of the situation.
And you know, those were times.
You know that during that time, America was taking a look at the justice system on how harsh penalties were. The culmination of it was the suspension of the death penalty in nineteen seventy two, and easy benefited from this, and I think out of a ten year sentence, I think he served three years.
Yeah, even less.
He is parole June nineteen seventy, and his father in law is appalled.
You write that he was out so soon, but.
He's offered a job in Iowa, but he says, well, I'll be back to Waterloo but in a few days.
But he never moves.
He never comes back, and he moves in with his mother and he gets a job at a restaurant and starts becoming successful. At the same time, you write about the seventies and the sort of social scene that went on at that time, and people did risky behavior what we would consider risky now, hitchhiking, and so there was a pickup scene and the sexual mores were.
Lightened, and so people. It was a different time, wasn't it.
And meeting people and picking out people, especially the people that Gacy targeted, was easy at that time.
Well, yeah, and what I mean, you know, young young America was on the move and they were hitchhiking, which I mean, when's the last time you saw hitch shaking?
Now you know, they were hit shiking. They were taking buses and trains and that, so you know, kids were running away all the time then in a way you don't you know, really see now, and they were hitting the road. And one of the you know, east west north south depots was the Greyhound station in Chicago, which was opened, you know, not twenty years before as a model of the.
Modern bus terminal, but you know had since gone the seed with prostitutes and drugs and you know, rugbies and.
That sort of stuff. So it's a fairly CD scene, but these were people. The people that would often become targets at John Wayne Gacy were what one expert calls the missing missing, right because you can't report somebody.
Missing if you don't know they're missing. So if you don't even know they're missing, you know who's going to miss them. And obviously, you know, record keeping and things like that at that time were you know, was significantly less body. So that provided Gaisy with a target rich environment, you know, easy you know, easy hunting grounds, you know in Chicago, and to be frank through you know, on
the highways and byways of the country. You know that you know, anytime you saw a young man with a thumb out, you know it was he was a target.
You're right, that there were complaints though from somebody that he did pick up nineteen seventy one in February, but when cops questioned Gasey, he had the answers and said they're always just trying.
To blackmail me. Those charges were dropped.
His mother lent them the money to buy a house and the infamous eight two one three Summerdale Avenue in Cook County bought the house and his mom moved in, and soon after the recently divorced Carol Hoff moved in with her due daughters and moved in. But you're right that everything looked great. He was great to the daughters. He was thought that he had bowled her over, he had swept her away. And yet January second, nineteen seventy
two Greyhound bus boy murder. He killed for the first time soon after January second, nineteen seventy two, Timothy Jack McCoy.
Timothy McCoy was as I just said, he was on his way from relatives in Michigan. I believe home to Omaha, Nebraska, and the killing was actually by accident, but Gacy picked him up at the greyhound terminal in Chicago took him back to the house.
I'm not sure where Marion Gacy, his mother was, but took him back to the house in the and you know, with the offer of a warm bed, we'll put you back on the bus in the morning sort of thing. Well,
they you know, they ended up having having sex. Now, Gacy, the kid was making Gasey thought he was threatening him, and the kid was making breakfast standing there with a knife, and that's what you know, the kid was doing, and Gasey attacked him and stabbed him to I don't think that necessarily his you know, intention when he picked up the boy in the bus station was to murder him about you know, obviously he wanted to have sex with him, but he didn't that murder wasn't his mind.
And he stabs.
Him to death and he has an explosive orgasm. It's the you know, as Gaycy later said, it was the biggest turn on in his.
Life and that set him on the path to homicide.
You right, that that's when he said, quote, I realized that death was the ultimate thrill. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a second to hear from our sponsor, which is Skylight Frame. The holidays are just around the corner, looking for a good gift idea that your parents or in laws will genuinely love. It's hard to find gifts for family members, especially parents and grandparents who seem to have everything. Plus you want to give
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ultimate thrill. At the same time, his marriage was suffering, and you write about what his wife said in terms of their love life.
She was starting to figure out what Gacy was up to, not you know, not long after, you know, after about six months, you know, she was finding you know, gay you know, pornography around the house and hidden and things like that, and Gacy's you know, nocturnal activities. He would often leave the house at night and not come back till sun up. And of course, you know he was at that time, he was cruising for you know, for
for young men. And on the Mother's Day, I'm not sure what you're at seventy four, maybe he you know, she told he told her that he was never going to have sex with her again, and that was that was it.
And so you know, she I think hung on. Carol Hoff hung on for a while. Who's you know, by all descriptions a lovely woman. She you know, hung on for a while, but it just wasn't working for her, and there were parts of the house she wasn't allowed to attend. She wasn't allowed to go into the infamous
crawl space, or the garage and or his office. And you know, by this time, Gacy's homicidal pension was starting to get rolling, and she would sometimes leave the house or go visit her parents, eat two daughters with her, or she would they would go and visit Acy's mother, who by this time had moved to Arizona to be with her one daughter, Gacy's sister. And it was during his times that Gacy, for lack of a better word, let his freak flag fly.
You write that he built this contracting company called PDM, and he bragged to other people that he had a teen a workforce that was very, very cheap, and that's why he employed them. At the same time, you write about his wife catching on to what was going on.
So there was times when the wife and kids were away, and one time young is still identified person fourteen to eighteen year old was tortured, raped and strang angled and was stuffed in a storage closet and Gasey noticed that there was liquids leaping from this victim's mouth, and so from then on he decided to put either the briefs or a sock or a rag in the victim's mouths. Around this time, as well, with his work with the jc's led him to working or volunteering with the Moose Lodge,
another service club. He found out about that there was a fundraising element to the Moose Lodge and this was something with a clown.
So he became a clown and had.
A couple personas Pogol the clown and patches and start doing fundraising in clown costume. This also led to some of the things that we now learned that he bragged about, also the rope trick and the handcuff trick.
Yeah that's right, I mean Gaysey for Gayezy. Clowning, he later said, became a therapeutic where he could get out of himself and there was a bizarre level of sincerity about doing good works. He would later talk.
To the detectives about the bodies under his house, you know, as if those boys were nothing, and then be sobbing about some kid that was in the hospital sick that he'd met well in his persona as Bogo just to be clear, Pogo was the friendly clown. Patches was the sad clown, you know, the good and evil, the ying and yang. But yeah, he so he embraces this and and through also through the JCS.
You know, he meets a man who hooks him up with the Chicago's.
I guess, for lack of a better word, notorious and powerful democratic machine.
Yeah, yeah, well this is going He finally or she divorces him. His wife divorces him, and so people, neighbors especially comment that there is a a dramatic difference in John Wayne Gacy after this divorce, meaning they see him at all hours of the night, boys coming and going. And also one neighbor noted, as you write that start hearing screams and shouts and all kinds of strange noises in the middle of the evening.
Well Gacy went. From the time he moved into the house, he had been on a term offensive with that, you know, as he often did, you know, to the point of coining sometimes with his neighbors. And his neighbors liked him a lot.
He would play cards with them, he'd throw big parties and barbecues on the street, and so they quite liked him, but there was, you know, for starters, there were the periodic screams, and then there was the horrendous stench coming from underneath his house, which he always put down to burst sewer pipes and the like, but that was also becoming noticeable. But because they liked them so much, they never put anything down to it. I mean, I think when retrospect the two plus two plus two equals six.
But they just, you know, weren't capable of doing that addition, because who particular at that time, who deals who deals with somebody like John Wayne Gaesk, you know, I mean, that's not not to be good.
But a domestic homicide is one thing, a serial killer next, whereas you know, quite another.
So seventy six you write that things he has a break from seventy he kills it first. In seventy two you write, and then seventy five he starts. Seventy six is a very very busy year for him and wracks up an incredible body count. But at the same time, there are several incidents where people get away, people have complaints, There are there are opportunities, it seems, for the police to intervene. But there are people that when they're missing person's report. Do you have at least one or two
parents where they were told? One parent was told because it was out of one jurisdiction, they couldn't deal with it.
And when they went to that other.
Jurisdiction, they said, well you'll have to go back to that original jurisdiction. Nobody would file that missing person's report. And the others were told, look at likely they're going to be a runaway, and they were treated like runaways, these missing people along this route this path.
Well, yeah, and the other thing is is about that dan is where you know who these victims were. They were from an area called Uptown, and many of them were from an area called Uptown in Chicago in addition to you know the kids coming into towns on a bus or whatnot.
But they were from an area named the Uptown, which is it was a rough neighborhood largely populated by people from the poor whites from Appalachia trying to get their toe old in the American dream and you know, more often than not unsuccessfully. So these kids were a lot of them were not parents didn't love them, but they were feral children. They were running around wild and you know, that sort of stuff, and so it would be easy for the police at the time to blow it off.
And you know, in addition, you know, and I talked to LA cops about this is like with the nightstocker Richard Ramirez, because it was all kinds of jurisdictions and there wasn't there wasn't the communication that there is now, so you know, you know, somebody might be snatched off the street here, murdered there and dumped over there, and and so it was, you know, a bit of a logistical nightmare. So and that was I think part of
the thing with Gacy. I mean, the police always and plus you know, Gacy would always hould up the card that he was. You know, he's a Democratic chairman. He was a popular and successful businessman.
And who you going to believe, right, And it would be much different again today, but they would believe Gacy, you know, said, oh, yeah, I saw him, he worked for me, I paid him, and he left. He said he was going to Wichita or Colorado or California or something like that. And that would be good enough for the cops, you know, And the cops at the time didn't have the tools necessary to deal with a guy like John Wayne Gacy.
You're right that it's even interesting where the police had reports of missing people, missing persons that were employees of PDM or former employees of PDM, and still and you write about a couple of the employees that become important later David Cram and forgotten the other gentleman's name. But regardless, these continued, This missteps by police continued completely. But you say the beginning of the end, as you call it.
New Year's Eve nineteen seventy seven, there was a person that again got away, and he had a story for police that he was kidnapped at gunpoint at a bus stop and forced into sexual acts. And he said that he pleaded with cops to believe him, but they treated him like he was stone.
Yeah, he wasn't going to, you know, let let this die him and his hoals like he remembered Gacy's car. He remembered Gacy couldn't tell you where he lived.
But you know, he knew where he'd been taken or where he'd been dumped off and whatnot.
And so he thought they thought that he would get on the arm ramp at this particular spot, and sure enough he did so Gasey. You know, he goes with this to the cops.
He knows that it's Gaysey, and they follow him to his home and they know exactly where he is and they go to the cops and the cops aren't really enthusiastic about this, and you know, so they're going to charge him, and instead Gaycy settles out of court with this.
Guy to make it, to make it all go away and to continue on his merry way. Now, this is the first inkling.
He's been back in Chicago at this point, by like for six seven years, and despite numerous reports, nobody's linked them all together. And so finally they you know, this guy's on the record, they know who this guy is. They know, you know, Gacy is a little bit more exposed by this point.
Another person you read about is Jeffrey Ringnol and he was determined to find his attacker as well. He claimed this is very very interesting. He claimed that there was another man in the room during his torture and rape, observing.
Well, there's been I mean, that's been one of the persistent I mean, I think that's sort of what is one of the things that makes the John Wayne Gacy story evergreen. Is that it just seemed like there was so many loose ends, you know what you know, Jeff Rignol said, you know, they've been widely believed that he had accomplices, and there was like many many more, many more victims know who the accomplice was, We don't know.
We have an idea. There's different names.
That have you know, crossed the page over the last forty odd years. You know, there's David Cram, There's you know, there's a Philip Pasky.
That's it, yes, and you know there's a number of these characters who move in and out of that orgament. Now Pasky was a was an employee of aases as well, and he was a close associate you know, the probably the you know, the man called by the Dallas Detectives, the pedophiles, pedophile and John David Norman who ran a nationwide pedophile sex ring that supplied boys to you know very well healed perverbs. So yeah, so, I mean there's all these strands and Dacy was well traveled as well
for a man of the nineteen seventies. I interviewed a guy a couple of weeks ago, who's.
Certain that you know he you know he got away from Gaysey by the skin of his teeth.
I mean he got busted for stealing his car.
And this was in Lexington, Kentucky, and he got away by the skin of his teeth and whatnot.
And you know it's only been the last few years this record was cleared. But you know I had something. He was certain when he saw saw Gaysey that was the guy he'd gotten the way from and had the Gaysey playbook to a team.
Let's Jesus has an opportunity to stop for a second for these messages.
It is Ryan here, and I have a question for you. What do you do when you win?
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Now when I mentioned it, it was a beginning of the end. As you write, it wasn't so long after. There was other attacks In June Timothy O'Rourke, he was charged for battery on Ringnal. But in the interim he goes too far from the people he picks to people
where he picks them. He's got a contract remodel pharmacies and it's Nissan Pharmacy into Planes and owner Phil Torp he's talking about renovating this pharmacy and Rob peaste overhears that this contractor is paying five dollars an hour, twice what he's making at this pharmacy, and so his mom, heartbreaking, lead's there to pick him up. But also it's her birthday and he tells mom, you know, just wait inside and I'm just going to he talked to his contractor
and she never ever sees him again. And that is the downfall for John Wayne Gacy in that again, this is a person that he shouldn't have messed with, and so soon detectives are onto him. You write about again what many people have read before about the police coming in and the tailtale smell and the one time when the heat just went on, Gasey would invite these police in his own home because he was under twenty four
hour surveillance. Eventually, that surveillance drove him baddie, and he went to his attorney, which was the first case he had in his private practice, and John Wayne Gacy asked for a whiskey and then told Sam Amaranti everything that he had done, didn't he?
Yeah, he did, and I mean he was at the end of it.
Gasey spilled his guts, so Amoranti couldn't.
Was a diminutive man, and yeah, I said that, no, no, he used to be six feet tall, but Case knocked the foot off his statue, right, But he said that.
You know, Gasey is telling them, and you know, as Gasey gets up to leave, and Amarante runs out where the cops are and said, don't let him go because because you know, by this point and to their credit, you know, when the the planes police.
Are on to Gacy, they're like all in to get them. And I don't think it was any one person's fault or anything like that. Certainly it wasn't homophobia at least as they insist even now. And you know, I tend to believe them.
They were a victim of their times, the same as unfortunately those there's three young men and boys were.
But by now he Gasey spills to Amarante.
And now they've now they've got him, and he can't you know. One of the damning things for Gacy was that he was allowed the breaker and he couldn't shut up. And the detectives that were after weren't the Keystone cops. Caasey thought they were. That they were paying very close attention to everything. They were saying, every every every cop
and spit. And then the horrific work, you know, began to unearthing the bodies from his house, which you know, was avocate of horror, you know, the no you know, Schlockbaister could ever possibly imagine.
The to add to this horror was Sam Amarani and another attorney Motto, but also the police also got an ear full of again the braggart, the person that considered these people it was their own fault and they had it coming to him.
They were like trash. He had his He had no remorse.
Whatsoever, not that you would expect it, but none, even shockingly, but he talked about because of his big mouth. He field again, nothing no horror movie could compare to this horror. That he even spoke about himself about what he did to Rob Peaste, what he did to other victims, the torture, the rape, and the taunting incredible.
Well, yeah, the level of depravity is just staggering. Now, as I'd mentioned earlier, I mean, all these kids, all the kids in Young met Casey murdered White and Gacy had said, you know, in one interview that he only killed those who tried to shake him down or would or would really fight him.
But you know, I mean, I think if I was in the situation of those voice, my inclination would be to fight. I don't think shaking down would be of any consideration. And the tales are horrendous, of the tears and begging for their lives, and that seemed to ribe Gacy to further heights of some kind of twisted ecstasy. Yeah, And it was horror.
After horror after horror after horror every day for months.
And you know, indeed, as I mentioned.
Earlier, that they still haven't I think there's five bodies still that they've not yet identified that you know, were you know, underneath his house. One Chicago detective, i mean Cook County Cherifs detective has been the guardian.
Of these cases.
And he was supposed to specifically be doing Gayzy, but he's managed to clear ten other cold cases in the interim. Just that how much Gayzy, how he still haunts even though he's been dead twenty eight years.
You talk about gaycy as well. At trials, very very interesting. His poor mother was on the stand for twelve hours and this guy with he showed no emotion, finally showed some emotion, and oddly enough, they let John Wayne Gacy hug his poor mother.
At the end of her testimony at trial.
Yeah, I mean, Casey, you know, was obviously he had been hiding in plain sight for years.
But he was a man of contradictions. Many of the detectives that brought him down quite liked him on a personal.
Level, you know, but you know, but they all thought he was a bullshitter too, they you know, I mean, they were very clear about that. And obviously he was very close with his mother, and you know, I mean, his mother did what she could do to protect herself or him, protect him from from the father. So he had a close pp bond with her end and with the sisters and they this was just something they never ever ever saw coming like to them, there was no indication at all. And you know, I have no doubt
his mother was heartbroken about it. But you know, I mean, it's a horrific horrific or.
Just you say, is still an ongoing case and there are, as you write, unanswered questions, and one of those is did he commit any more murders? He has said to a detective you quote, how about forty five sounds like a good number, and that person believed that.
Yeah, that's I mean, that's the big part of it too, is that Gacy, as I said, you know, traveled frequently to Florida he would and you know, and also to Pittsburgh and he would drive. And as we both know, there were a lot of hit takers and young people on the road at that time. You know, here's this guy.
Might be a bit of a loud mouth, but he's friendly enough and whatnot.
Yeah, I'll take a ride with him.
You know, it's impossible to think that when Gaycy was traveling, you know, down to Florida or wherever he was going, that what you all of a sudden he put you know, murder on the shelf. I mean, because obviously this was a compulsion that drove him.
This was his you know, this was at the core of his being by the end.
I mean, whoever else John Wayne Gacy may have been, you know, that was largely erased by the time the police brought him in, and he was almost a full time predator.
There is talk about accomplices, and especially when there is some controversy over David Kram and Philip Penski working for Gasey and you say that, some say that they must have been privy to some information, if not again some sort of accomplice before or after the fact.
Yeah, I mean that's what I believe. I mean, Jeffrey Ringwalld, you know, knowing that he's saying that there was somebody there when Gasey was, you know, torturing him and raping him.
You know, Cram's there. And also at the time, as I mentioned earlier, there was Penske who worked for Daseynsky was a transvestite pedophile who you know, was the main associate of a.
Guy named John David Norman was you know, the most you know, notorious pedophile in the United States. He had a filing card system of thousands of names of high powered people, including politicians in Washington that he would send underage boys to. And so they're all in Chicago at the same time with Penske working for Gacy.
You know, it's hard to believe that they may not have there may not have been some interaction.
I mean, one of the people connected with Norman was Dean the candy Man Coral, a notorious Houston serial killer. I think his tally of death was around, you know, around twenty five whatnot. And he had close ties with John David Norman, who had been based out of Dallas before he ended up in Chicago. And if you look at the Candyman's mo it's not.
You know, dissimilar from Gacy or vice versa, because the candy Man was before. But you know, these vulnerable you know, you go after vulnerable kids who aren't going to squawk, right, and you lure them in with friendship, promises, cool sort of stuff and jobs or what have you, and you've got them. Now. The Candyman had a number of teen.
Accomplices, including one of them who you know, parked a couple of bullets in them.
But his reign of terror now that guy's still in prison.
But you know it's coincidence maybe, but you know, you start connecting the dots, you know, that seems like there might be something there is it? You know, hurt is granted, not necessarily, but it looks like it.
Yeah.
I want to thank you so much for coming on and talking about your book, Inside the Mind of John Wayne Gacy, The Real Life Killer Clown. For those that might want to take a look, I know this book is on Amazon right now all over the place, paperback and Kindle, probably the audiobook soon enough. And also tell us about any social media that you do.
I can be found on Twitter at at Hunter Capital t capital O capitals un that's Hunter at t O SUN and I also I also wrote a book last year called Cold Blooded Murder, which is a collection of about twenty five famous murder stories as well, and that's also available on Amazon, Burns, and Noble, et cetera.
Well, that's great, Sure to check it out.
Thank you so much, Thanks Dan, Inside the Mind of John Wayne Gacy, the Real Life Killer Clown. Thank you so much. Brad Hunter, you have a great evening. Thank you you two. Thanks Dan to stay in trouble, you too.