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Hope you are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about him Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Good Evening.
This is the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them with their host stands of Haskey. The affluent suburb of Cheshire, Connecticut, seemed like the perfect place for doctor William PETTITTT and his wife, Jennifer Hawk Pettitt, to raise their two lovely daughters until July twenty third, two thousand seven, when, according to the police, two ex cons invaded the Pettitt home, hoping to embark on a routine robbery,
one that would ultimately prove deadly. One unfolded at three hundred Sorghum Mill Drive. Was a tragic and horrifying sequence of events that shocked the community and made headlines across the nation. Before the morning was over, Missus Hawk Pettitt and one of the daughters would be sexually assaulted and the entire house would go up in flames, and only doctor Pettitt, his head bloodied, his legs bound, would manage to escape with his life with the help of neighbors
and local police. The two success two suspects were soon found captured. Now Joshua Commas Commas ar Jeski and Stephen Hayes away trial for murder.
The book.
This evening that we are featuring is in the Middle of the Night with my host, journalist and author Brian McDonald. Thank you for interviewing to this agreeing to this interview, Brian, and welcome to the program, Brian McDonald.
Hey Dan, how are you? Tony?
Very well, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. A great book, by the way.
No problem. Thank you.
Now, first off, let me ask the question I usually asked the guest because I'm always interested in it. Usually it's to an interesting answer. What made you decide to write a book about this particular case?
Well, I mean, I mean, first of all, because of how shocking it was. I'll give you. I'll give you a little bit of the background. I didn't I didn't open the paper. Now this was front page news. I live in New York City. This was front plate page New York Times News, this murder in Connecticut for for a while after it happened. And it wasn't like I opened the paper and said, Jesse, I want to write about this, And it didn't unfold that way at all. I had written a book from my publisher, a true
crime book called Safe Harbor. It was about a woman that was murdered on Nantucket, and so I had a little bit of a track record with Saint Martin's True Crime and my agent and my editor from the first true crime book I did, conspired and called me and asked me if I would be interested in writing about the Cheshire murders. So I didn't jump into it right away.
It was such a heinous crime. It was, you know, I mean, it involved children's sexual abuse all you know, things that can keep you up at night, you know, And so I but after reading about it and doing some initial you know, investigating into it, I decided that it was a story and it was a story that resonated so so clearly with in Cold Blood, you know, the granddaddy of ultrue crimes, that it was an opportunity that I thought I couldn't. I couldn't pass up, So so I did it.
Now, let's go back and set the scene for where this crime takes place. The community to doctor William Pettitt and his wife and the daughter lived. Give us that background, give us to what the life of doctor Pettitt would be in his family. What were they like typically, what was a community like? How big is the community and where is it geographically to a bigger city where we might recognize.
Okay, it's a it's a bedroom community, Cheshire, Connecticut. It's a beautiful, bucolic New England town. It's like the towns you see in uh in movies about about New England. It's uh, there's some farming elements still there, but it's been built up through uh, you know, some waves of
affluence and uh. It's a bedroom community to Hartford. Not only Hartford where the insurance companies, uh, you know, the big insurance companies have their headquarters, but also to Yale Yale University, and a lot of people that work at at and for the university live in Cheshire, Connecticut. Now,
doctor Pettitt was a in the end, the chronologist. His wife was a nurse, worked in a local private School, Cheshire Academy of very well known uh in in the area of private school and she was the school nurse. Doctor Pettitt had a private practice and also worked out of a hospital up there. He was very well known in the community, very well respected in the community. They had had two daughters, Haley who was about to enter Dartmouth. She was going to follow her father's footsteps. He had
graduate waited from Dartmouth. She was going to study pre law and michaela who was eleven at the time. And michaela precocious young lady who was a fan of Rachel Ray and wanted to be a foodie, a chef, a celebrity chef and what have you. So they were really the idyllic family. I mean, it was a perfect little block. They lived on. Sorgam Mill Drive is a you know as a block replicated thousands of times throughout North America. It's the kind of block you want to live on,
you want to raise a family on. It's something like this happening on a street like that is so incongruous, it's it's it's absolutely shocking. So it was like the perfect setting for a family, for a for the doctor Pettitt's family.
Now, let's go to the main characters in this tragic tale. Joshua Coomas, Komasar.
It's Commisar Jefski. Yeah, it's yeah Jeki.
Okay, we got it.
That name. First of all, Dan, let me just give you a little background. I mean, the name itself is was you know, it's a famous Russian name. His Joshua was adopted into the family. But I mean, you're not alone tripping over that name. Everybody trips over all the journalists do, all the law enforcement people throughout his life, everybody associated can't get this name out. But the name,
you know, it's Russian, that's that's snow Shock. But it's a very famous His grandfather, his adoptive grandfather, Joshua was adopted, who was a Russian uh director, a very well known director, Russian director in the in the Bolshoi Theater, the famous Bolshoi Ballet, the Bolshoi Theater, moved to immigrated to the United States, and uh you know, uh, well, I'll tell you a little bit about how Joshua's family came out. But go ahead, I'm sorry to throw up what was your question?
Oh no, no, I just it's Joshua's life. You've already alluded to that he's adopted, So tell us go just back a little bit to how he came to be adopted into this wealthy, affluent family.
Okay, he was, you know, he was adopted at birth. He didn't know his birth parents. His he found a little bit out about them later on. And his mother was only sixteen, his biological mother was only sixteen. His father was just a little bit older, maybe nineteen twenty. There was the indications that there was you know, that there might have been drugs involved in the biological parents, and that's why they put Joshua up for adoption. But that didn't do anything to give him a bad life,
because he traded He traded up by being adopted. He was adopted the Commissary Jessky. His parents, his adoptive parents, Ben and Jude Commercer Jessky, were by all indications, a lovely, lovely, lovely couple. There were Christians, they were fervent Christians. They, uh, Joshua had belong to a series of of I want, I don't want to say fundamentalist churches, but in that vein, you know, very very religious people and and they were also, uh,
the surroundings were just amazing. His his grandfather, not the Russian grandfather, because his grandmother married. It gets a little convoluted here, but his grandmother married the Russian grandfather died. His grandmothers married a man by the name of Chamberlain, who was a actually a pretty well known writer. He was a columnist for several big magazines and also a book reviewer for the New York Times. And he owned a sixty five acre estate in Cheshire, and it was
surrounded by horse farms. It was it's beautiful. It's a wooded streams, babbling brooks, you name it. It was just a beautiful place. And that's where Joshua grew up. His his parents had a small house. They called it the homestead. It makes it sound like it's a bigger place than it actually was, you know. And it was kind of ramshackled when when I went up in sort. But the
I mean he had he had every every advantage. Now, early on he started to show some he started to show some behavioral problems and and and they had to take him out of public schools and his mom homeschooled him. But that that didn't inhibit any any education at all. I mean he he his mother was a librarian. His a grandfather who lived on the estate with this, was a writer. His grandmother was a ballet dancer. I mean they had all of this influence of arts and and
and and letters and and uh. His father was U Ben commercer. Jeesky was a carpenter and an electricians. So we had you know, tutelage in in uh you know, working with his hands and everything. I mean, had a wonderful uh childhood. It was just uh, it was just great. But but around the age of twelve he started to get he had this and you know, I'll tell you
a little bit. I actually spoke to him on a number of occasions and uh and had a correspondence with him, uh via letter letters for for for many months leading up to the trial. But I'll tell you that later. So that's how I have I'll let us information comes firsthand that comes from him. You know, when he was around twelve, he broke into a house he was coming home.
He used to he used to uh leave the house like hit wait till his parents went to sleep, and then about twelve o'clock and nine one o'clock in the morning, he'd get out of the house. He'd go out his bedroom window and jump on the garage and then go into the woods, you know, and spend the night in the woods. And he'd always make it back in time before six o'clock and when his father would wake up, so his father never knew he was out of the house, but he was. He was doing these night night voyages
or whatever through the woods by himself, you know. And one day he got he ventured father. Then he thought and the sun was coming up, and he knew he was going to get caught, so he broke into a house. He's twelve years old. He broke into a house, stole a set of keys for a car, and took the car out of the driveway and drove it home so he could beat his father getting up so he wouldn't get caught. And that's how his life of crime started and was pretty big. It was for a twelve year old.
There was a pretty big entrance to the last year rime stealing a car. But something he realized how and this is according to him, and you know how much of it is, you know, Joshua has a tendency to exaggerate a little bit. I think it doesn't sit his but his I mean, the crimes that he would commit over the next fourteen years leading up to the murders in Cheshire were just enormous. I mean, even if only fifty percent of them were true, it was an enormous
life of crime, and an amazing life of crime. He found out, he said to me, how easy it was to break into the house. So he started breaking into the houses when he was twelve. He'd get on his bicycle, he'd have he'd go out the window of his bedroom, like I said, he'd get on his bicycle. He had a camouflage outfit that he sent away for you know, like a mail order camouflage outfit. He had a dark skull cap. Later on he bought night vision goggles, you know,
from the back of a magazine something like that. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm laughing, but I'm not. It's not it's not funny at all. I don't I don't mean, I don't mean to diminish what what happened. But you can imagine this kid at twelve thinking that he was, you know, the burglar, you know, par excellence, and and he was. He started breaking into houses by the dozens. When he was twelve, he broke into houses all over
this town of Cheshire and middle in central Connecticut. He broke into houses around the Pettit neighborhood where the you know, the murders would happen. Many years later, he by his own account, broke into at least two hundred houses during his teens. Sometimes he wouldn't take anything. He would sit in the house. He said, he wrote this whole letter of explaining how it was being in a house with the people sleeping upstairs and them not knowing he was there,
and the feelings that he had. He'd listened to the sounds of the house, the apes, the house settling, the wind in the eaves. I mean, it was really really creepy. He had this, you know, long, long explanation. Sometimes he wouldn't, like I said, he wouldn't take anything. Sometimes he'd just take a picture off the wall, just to like screw with the people's minds a little bit, you know. I
mean there was something. I mean, obviously there was a something was something was a mess or something was wrong with his you know, with his psyche early on. But he didn't get caught. He wouldn't get caught he finally when he was about I want to say, sixteen years old, he started a fire in an abandoned car dealership in Cheshire and he got caught for that. And because he got caught for that, some of the prior crimes came out.
Either he gave it up himself or I'm not really sure how it happened, but he faced the first of a series of judges in his late teens that would uh, he had like a he had this he has this way about him now when I interviewed him, I sort a lot. You know, it's that he comes across so likable, so polite, so soft spoken. So you know that people wanted to believe throughout his life that there was something in there worth saving. You know, there was something he has these uh a way of looking at you that
that that has an innocence about it, you know. And uh and and and he started to get breaks. You know, one judge after or another gave him you know, uh, you know, put him in like the parents the first time, the first arrest, the parents talked to judge into letting them put him in a Christian Christian camp, and he went into a Christian camp and up in New Hampshire, and he spent some time up there, and then he got caught for something else, and the judge said to him,
you know, you need some psychological help. So they put him in this psycholog This wasn't a mental hospital, but it was a hospital for trouble teens, a place for trouble teens, but it wasn't jail. And then the third judge he got caught for something. The third judge said to him, you know, either go in the army or now he's nineteen, either go on the army or we'll
put you in jail. So he joined the army. He would ultimately go a well from the army Army reserves about a year later, or less than a year later. But you know, there was so many missed opportunities early on where and in the meantime he amassed this like enormous number of burglaries, and you know, people were looking the other way. People kept thinking that there's something about this guy that's that's not you know, that's you know, he's too nice of a boy to be worried about,
you know, But he wasn't. You know, he had already started to formulate a personality that wasn't wasn't a nice boy at all. It wasn't a nice boy at all.
So one of the things that you didn't talk about we could talk about a little bit later. But I think it's fair that at least fair to his character. Not that I put that much weight on it, but but the fact is that, again, a lot of this stuff is coming from.
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Webster details his perspective. He's telling you this so you have no way to really verify. But in the same instance, to be fair, he says that at six years old that uh, there was two more adopted children, and there was an older boy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He characterizes not as moless station. So anybody's gonna he said it was outright, flat out rape and was torturous for him for I don't know how much time. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that, because I mean, if there is anything, if there's anything about his background that seems amiss, this is really this really is it and it and it It can be considered fairly well, very serious de bite his idyllic.
Background, considering considering what would happen on sorgum Mill Drive, which we'll talk about, you know, in a little bit, but considering what happened in the house that night, Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean it has a huge, huge, and no doubt. Joshua goes to trial next next year, early next year, and no doubt that's going to play a large part in the defense of of of him.
And what you're talking about his mother, Uh, it wasn't an adopted it was a She brought in two foster children and one of them was josh was six or seven at the time, maybe even younger. I don't I can't remember. For six yeah, six years old at the time.
And this there was a boy and a girl of the foster children, and the boy was sixteen and according to Joshua, and it's and it's the court records because Joshua would would be arrested when he was twenty two and and in those records, in testimony from that from that trial, he uh, it came out that he had in fact been uh sexually assaulted by by this this Forster Forster boy, you know. And Joshua, you're right, Joshua says, and I think the quote is merciless rape, that he
was and that it went on for months. You know, there's no way, I mean, even though it's court records, I guess there's no way short of putting his parents on the stand. And I you know, I don't really know whether they were completely because it went on for so long to substantiate it completely. But there's you know, there's I think there's there's also court records from psychiatrists,
psychologists and what what have you that interviewed Joshua. So it's pretty there's a there's a pretty good chance that it actually occurred that he was raped when he was five or six by the by the older foster boy.
So you're right. And and uh, like I said, what what would transpire on sorger Mill Drive would would certainly uh, you know that that is certainly a huge, huge part of his formative uh, his formation as a as a as a as a human being, but also as a as a criminal and as a you know, a criminal that committed one of that most heinous crimes in Connecticut state history. So you're right, yeap.
Now the other perpetrator here, the other character in this is a man named Stephen Hayes. A lot more, a lot less interesting, but still for the official record, who was Stephen Hayes?
Yeah, Stephen, they were like a Mutton Jeff combination. They met on and they met in a halfway house. Stephen Hayes is quite a bit older than Joshua. He was a lifelong criminal. His first arrest was in his early twenties. It was believe it was a drug arrest, and then he would go on to have I think twenty it's either twenty three or twenty six more arrests during his lifetime. So he was an habitual criminal. Most of the arrest had to do with drugs and money for drugs and
what have you. He was, no doubt, by the time he met Joshua, almost institutionalized because he had spent you know, a large majority of his of his adult life behind behind bars, you know, in a dozen or more different prisons in and around the state of Connecticut. So he was, you know, and and and during his trial, Hayes has already gone to trial, and his trial, there was a lot came out about his childhood. It wasn't it wasn't leave it to Beaver. It wasn't you know, the Huxtables
by any stretch of the imagination. He had a rough childhood. His father was a uh you know, his father was in the wind early apparently left the family and the mother and uh, you know, they had it was it was a hard, hard, hard, hard, hard luck life, you know that he had. But he did. He also had two brothers who went on and did just fine, you know, So it wasn't you know, there's no excuse there for the life that he chose. And you know, like I said,
it was, it's kind of a boring story. I mean, it's like he'd get out of jail, it'd start to work, it'd start to smoke, crack'd start to steal to perpetuate his his habit, and then he'd get arrested and go back to jail. And that's that's the that was the life of Stephen Hayes. He met Joshua in a halfway house.
Uh.
It's called Stillman House, I believe. And it was on one of the many times he was in the parole process being paroled out into the into the world. And I always say this that you know, however you feel about that. I mean, there were so many there's so many parts about this crime that have like an evil aura aura or an element of evil to it. And the date that they met each other was kind of
like one of those one of those things. They met on June sixth, two thousand and six, which is six six six, uh and uh, and that uh was you know, it probably means nothing, but it also was gave me a chill when I saw the when I saw the date. And uh, they uh, they hit it off right away. Hayes was kind of a happy, go lucky guy, if you can be as a as a lifelong convict, and he he was, uh a where Joshua was kind of a quiet, quiet guy. But somehow they hit it off.
They liked each other, and uh, you know, when they did end up going out, they uh, I mean being let out of the halfway house into the into the world. They they remained friends and and at first they were, you know, they were trying. It looked, by all appearances, like they were trying to do, uh, you know, live a straight and narrow, you know, as clean and straight, straight and clean life. They both were going to cocaine anonymous meetings. They were they both became employed right away.
They were doing some uh working for contractors. Joshua was putting roofs on on houses. Hayes. He got Hayes a job, but with his company, Hayes was also doing other things. And so it looked for a very short time like they were you know, trying to actually you know, uh, you know, there's a right to you know, live their life in a law abiding manner.
So now what did they plan to do? I mean you say they were working for a little bit. Uh, that was somewhat brief. But what was their original idea?
Well?
Why did why did they even hook up? I mean Joshua liked the guy, and then obviously Hayes was impressed with Joshua, a very charismatic guy of very organized and and besides, Steve needed a break from Joshua. Was there something it sounded like originally that the most that maybe Hayes could have come up with is some kind of robbery of some sort or some burglerary. He knew that this guy could break into places. So what was your research? What did you find was the at least their initial plan.
Well, like I said, initially they were working legitimately together. They were you know, Hayes had a plant to buy his own. He was borrowing cars he didn't have. He had to borrow his mom's car. He was living with his mother in a small town called Winstead up in central Connecticut, not too far from Cheshire, and he had
to borrow his mom's car and friend's cars. So he was saving up for a truck, and part of his parole agreement was that he'd have a place to stay, and his mom signed off on that, and lord knows why she did, because he had, you know, so many times before put her in a position where, you know, where he didn't follow through on his promise, you know, he'd get high or something like that. So but this time it looked like he was going to do the
right thing. He had saved a couple of thousand dollars to buy a car or a truck, and he was paying his mom rent, I think, and and you know, he was he was trying to live the right thing. But then and he was going to these meetings, he was going he was staying clean and sober, and but then he got high. I mean, it was as simple as that, because all of a sudden that there were the two or three thousand dollars that he had and a bank account was gone, and his mother got wind
of that. His mother found out about that, and she gave him an ultimatum, having been through this so many times before with him, that that he had to get out of the house. So now he was going to violate his parole if his mother throw him out of the house. That meant the violation of his parole. He was going to go back to jail. So that was his impetus to to pull a crime. Now. Joshua, on the other hand, had you know, told Hayes about his exploits, you know, about how what kind of a burglar he was,
and we haven't talked about that, but he was. He was. He was an incredible burglar. He was. He was, uh, you know, they used to call him cat burglars. But he could break into He could break into anything. He knew how to disarm alarm systems, he knew how to get into the most fortified houses. He did. He broke into businesses, he broke He says that he was a hired to burglarized places, lawyers offices and stuff like that.
He was just so no doubt he was telling Hazel of this these stories when they were in the Halfway House. So I think it's so the way, although this hasn't didn't come out in the trial, but it'll probably come out in Joshua's trial. The way I see it at least is that Hayes approach approached Joshua with the with the idea. Now he said he said to him, you know, why don't we do why don't we do a job together. Now, by this time Joshua, who also had a history of
drugs and a pretty pretty extensive history of drugs. I don't know whether Joshua was using by this time, by the time Hayes approached him with this, with this idea to pull a job together, but he must have been. You know, I know that soon after he was at a party where he was drinking, and that that's an indication that maybe he was not too far if if he wasn't already back on drugs. So Joshua said, yes, you know, he said, all right, we'll pull a job together.
But they you know, they had this idea, Joshua, I guess Hayes put a dollar amount on it. He said he needed a big score. You know, we had to get an apartment, he had to get a car, or he was going to be sent back to jail. He was going to have to he was going to violate his parole. So, you know, apparently they were they were going to do something that was out of even Joshua's ordinary.
You know, they they came up with an idea, whether it was Joshua and I'd have to believe it was Joshua because he was infinitely smarter than Hayes and what have you. He he came up with an idea to take a family hostage. He was going to break into the house and he was going to you know, neutralize whatever had to be neutralized, and he was gonna tie whoever was up in the house, and he was gonna you know, spend that time to ransack the house for
money and and what have you. Now that's how it started. However, Joshua's motive for this crime wasn't just about money, if about money at all, I think that he was more or less given, you know, humoring Hayes about the about the idea to get you know, to make that they would find this kind of money in the house. But I don't think that was Joshua's motive at all. And I'll talk about that if you'd like, Yeah.
Well, tell us Joshua was the person that winds up spotting the victim or picking the potential victim for his this job idea. So a lot there's a lot of credibility or a lot of credence to the idea that he's the guy that.
Came up with it.
Now, tell us how we picked out the potential victims for this robbery idea, and tell us about who you think was the target. Wasn't just about robbery, and tell us why and and who this person was.
Okay, the crime happened in Cheshire. The murders in Cheshire happened on a Sunday night, Monday morning. You know, actually it was Monday morning by the time they broke into the house. The night before, Hayes and Joshua had gone out looking to rob a house, and they actually broke into two houses in Cheshire. And and from the way Joshua explains it the way court court, I mean information that came out through the trial Hayes's trial, it was more like a dry run. They were like Joshua was
the burglar, Hayes wasn't. He wanted to see how Hayes would react going into the houses and stuff like that. He wanted to put him through his paces a little bit. And that's what they did. They robbed two houses the night before. I'm not saying that it wasn't listen to people that those houses that they burglarized. Believe me, they're breathing a sigh of relief that what happened on siorgam Mill Drive didn't happen to them. I'm not diminishing that
at all. But but but from Joshua's perspective, it was more or less a you know, like a dry run. He wanted to see how Hayes would react under the pressure of robbing a house, et cetera, et cetera. So they robbed two houses and they got nothing that they stole. A couple of credit cards they stole. There was some cash laying around, some odds and ends, not a lot of stuff, you know. They did, however, take pictures from the house, you know, family pictures of the house. And
uh and and I believe a knife. They stole a knife out of one house. It was scary stuff, but it wasn't, luckily, it wasn't, you know, even close to what would happen the following night. The following night, he Joshua had plans to meet Hayes to go out again looking for a place to rob. And that day, either that afternoon or maybe it was the afternoon before, Joshua went to stop and shop or a sporting goods store. He bought a pellic gun that uh, you know, handheld
a pistol, pellet pistol. He bought rope, clothesline rope, He bought h zip ties, he bought other things to that
that he would use on sorg of Mill drive. Was there a couple of masks, Well, they made the masks out of ski ski hats, you know, ned hats, but eyes in the you know, the cut eyes in the in the in the halls, So they didn't they didn't actually buy the masks, but they bought, you know, he bought the other stuff, and he was Joshua has a five year old daughter, or she was five back then when the crime happened, so she's older now and he
he had just gotten custody of her. Now he was only out of jail, I mean, Hayes was Hayes was out of jail about a month. I think Joshua was out of jail, out of the halfway house even less time. So these guys weren't weren't oh no, no, Actually Joshua was out a little bit more time. So these these you know, they were they hadn't been out in the
population all that long. But Joshua somehow had gotten custody of his of his five year old daughter from from her mother, who was apparently having drug problems at the time, was in some rehab or thing, so he had custody of his five year old. He was living at his mother's house where he grew up in his mother and
father's house, and before he met Hayes. The night of the murders, he gave his daughter a bath, He read her Bible stories, put it, tucked her to bed, tucked her in, tucked her, put her to sleep, made sure she fell asleep. And all the time Hayes is texting him saying, you know, come on, let's go. You know, I'm ready, and Joshua was texting them back, hold your horses, I'm putting the kid to bed, you know, and you know, considering what would happen several hours later, it's just it's
just it's I'm here. It's mind boggling. It really is mind boggling. So so finally he he he puts his daughter, his daughter goes to sleep. He also had a Joshua had a girlfriend who who had just moved to Arkansas and her uh, you know, partly I think her father moved the family, although I guess it had to be more than this, but to get away from him. She was sixteen years old. Joshua had a series that the girl that the mother of his daughter was fifteen when he impregnated her. He had a sixteen.
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Ten year old girlfriend when the murders occurred, she had just moved to Arkansas. So he was attracted to you know, almost children, very very girls. And by this time he's twenty six. So he's dating a sixteen year old and now she moves to Arkansas. But there she's on the computer sending him pictures of herself and they're having cyber
sex on the phone. This is after he put his daughter to sleep, and finally he gets dressed, and his mother said His mother said to police that when I saw him put on the dark he had like a dark sweatshirt, a hooded sweatshirt. She said, I knew some there was, that there was trouble, that he was headed for trouble, you know. And Joshua left the house, left his daughter sleep asleep. His mother worried and got in the family van and went to meet Hayes. Now I
jumped ahead a little bit. That afternoon, before all of this happened, Joshua was in the Stopping Shot parking lot in Cheshire. It was about six o'clock at night. He said he was waiting to get paid from a contractor he had done some work for. He was supposed to meet him in the parking lot. While he's waiting there, the Pettit family car, a Chrysler PACIFICA, pulls up right
next to him. In the car is Missus Pettit, Missus Jennifer Hawk Pettitt, doctor Pettitt's wife, and they were eleven year old daughter Michaela, now Michaela was tall for her age. She was eleven years old. I mean there's no getting away from that. But she was. She was taller than most of her peers and what have you, and precocious and bouncy. And Joshua watched Michaela get out of the car and go into stopping shop. She was going to buy some groceries for dinner that night. She was cooking.
Like I said, she was a foodie, so she was cooking family dinner. And he waited for them to get out of the do the shopping, get back into the face family SUV and Joshua followed them to sorgam Mill Drive. Now he saw the house, he said to me. When I talked to him, he said the reason that he followed the Pacifica was that because the car said to him that the family had money. Now that's ludicrous. Cheshire, Connecticut,
although it's not it's not the top affluent town. You can imagine it is very affluent, and Chrysler Pacifica is not is it doesn't doesn't say money in Cheshire, Connecticut. I mean, you're talking about a parking lot that's filled with Mercedes and BMW s u V s. It's not. It doesn't say money at all, so that it shoots big holes in that in that excuse Joshua has. But so he had followed the he had followed the Pacifica to the Pettitt home orgum Mill Drive. He knew the area.
He had robbed houses in the area there when he was just twelve years old, twelve fourteen years old. So later on when he picks up Hayes, when he meets Hayes, Hayes asks Joshua, do you have any ideas? And Joshua says, yeah, I do. So they went out and they went to a bar and they did some drink, and they went they looked for houses to rob up up by this bar in Bristol, Connecticut, which is about fifteen miles north
of Cheshire. And then about three o'clock in the morning, Joshua said, come on, I got Let's go to the place that I wanted to go to. And they drove back to Cheshire, Connecticut, and on it was two thirty three o'clock in the morning, on to sorgum Mill Drive. And you know sorgum Mill Drive that time of the night you can hear a pin drop. I mean, it's the most it's it's you know, the quintessential quiet suburban block and they were rolled up in front of the
house or a couple of houses down from it. They put their masks on. They walked along the gravel street. It was paved, but there was loose gravel on it. I was on the street there was loose gravel on it. You can imagine their feet crunching on the gravel. And they went up alongside the house, up the driveway, and Joshua noticed the light on in the porch was an enclosed porch, and there was a man sleeping on the couch who was stocked the pettitt. Joshua told Hayes to
wait in the shadows in the trees. It had started to rain a little bit, and Joshua went around the back of the house. There were bulkhead doors. He opened the bulkhead doors and was able to jimmy the door into the basement open. He had a small little flashlight with him. He swept it, swept the basement with the light and found saw a Louisville Slugger baseball bat at the foot of the stairs. He climbed up the stairs.
And now this guy, he was as stealth as you could be, you know, I mean, he had nobody was going to hear him come and come and walking on the on the floor or anything like that. He was able to sneak up to the couch where doctor Pettitt slept. He raised the bat and he and he told me that he swung it as hard as he could. He hit doctor Pettitt in the head as hard as he could. Now he has this man who had played golf that afternoon, had a family dinner, his two daughters, and his wife
is sleeping upstairs. I mean, it had to be like this is this is the worst movie that could have ever played, and it was so unlikely that something like this could happen to this man. Joshua hit him about Joshua hit him about six times, five or six times as hard as he could. Doctor Pettitt has some kind of a heart disorder, and he was on this stuff kombit In, which is a blood thinner. So there was blood everywhere. Joshua told me that the blood was all over the all over the room, and all over him
and all over doctor Pettitt. But doctor Pettitt didn't die. He he was able to. Joshua sat him up on the on the bed and told him exactly what he was going to do, you know, and tied him up, and then he let Hayes into the house. And once that happened, they had control over the house, you know, so.
And he asked, he asked doctor Pettit too. It was amazing that he got whacked six times as heart as Joshua could. And then he got him up and said, listen, who's in the house We want.
Right upstairs, Joshua. Joshua said he was worried about that. He knew he knew the girl, the girls were in the house, but he thought maybe there was you know, ah, they had a son, he said. He said to me, he was worried that it was a thirteen year old, I mean an eighteen year old wrestler in the house or something like that. So he was worried about that. But then and Hayes walked up the stairs, you know,
and they first went into the older daughter's room. Haley woke her up, you know, with the hand over the mouth so she wouldn't scream, and uh, you know, they had the pistols. So you know, doctor Pettitt was tied of course, they tied him up, gagged, and uh, they had the pistols. So it looked like a real gun, you know, the pelic gun looks like a real gun that somebody that doesn't know. And they were able, they were able to tie Haley up with the to the
bed and bind her hands. And then they walked into the master bedroom where Michaela had gone to sleep with her mother, and uh, they woke you know, the the mother and Michaela up, and they also tied them. They brought Michaela back to her bedroom and tied her to the bed in her bedroom. And now they had the family held hostage just like that, you know, just like that,
they had dominion over the house. You know what they do next, well, I mean they were in the house for six hours and uh, you know, at some point Joshua got the came across the check book. I mean they ransacked the house. I mean I'm not rans acted, but I mean pulled out drawers and looked for money
and stuff like that. And uh, at some point Joshua saw a checking account that had money in it, and I guess he came up with the idea then that they were going to bring missus Pettit to the bank and withdraw money from it, and you know, to wait till nine o'clock in the morning. So they got in the house. It's at three. You had six hours that they were in this house. Can you imagine the terror
of this family. Uh, these these girls uh you know, went through We're thinking and uh, you know, at some point Joshua sent Hayes out for uh for to Phillip. They found gallon uh winch or wipe or fluids containers in the garage and the empty the fluid out of the containers, and he sent Hayes to a gas station. So as soon as that, as soon as they made that move, they had decided that nobody was gonna live
in that house, you know. I mean, there was a whole lot of things said in the trial that, you know, they were gonna take the family out of the house and burn the house down for DNA evidence and stuff like that. But that's all that's all nonsense. As soon as they as soon as Hayes went to the gas station, they had made up their mind so that they were
gonna kill everybody in the house, you know. And when Hayes was at nine o'clock in the morning, things started to really spin spiral out of control, dissent into like hell Hayes brought Missus Pettitt to the to the bank at at at nine o'clock in the morning. Now it's raining pretty hard outside. While Hayes is uh in going to the bank with Missus Pettitt, Joshua was in Michaela's room. He stripped her. He took pictures of her with his
with his cell phone. He had at least he at least sexually assaulted her, although in the Haz's trial it came out that in fact it wasn't it was much more than just assault. Joshua told me that he masturbated on her. Uh. And in Hayes's trial it came out that it was much worse than that, to an eleven year old girl bound and tied on her bed. Apparently he took pictures of Haley to the eighteen year old girl. When Missus Pettick came back from the bank, Stephen Hayes
raped and strangled her. She was the first murder of that morning. Uh. And then they took the gasoline and spread it all over the up the main floor of the house, all the way up the stairs around the beds where the girl where the girls watched them. You know, the girls saw them pour the gasoline around their beds. This whole time, Doctor Pettitt is still according to his testament, he was going in and out of consciousness. They had moved him into the cellar and tied him to a
post in the cellar, so he wasn't he wasn't. He didn't have an eye view first person, you know, a clear view of what was going on. He heard things up in the house, but he he really didn't know. And then either Hayes or driving now in the meantime, Oh, I forgot this. This is this is the past part. The missus Pettitt, Well, she's taken fifteen thousand dollars out of the bank rights on the back of the of the uh whatchoral slipped and my family is being held
hostage in my house. And that that she's able to tell that the teller that they're not going to harm my family if you don't call the police. And of
course the bank manager right away notifies the police. The Cheshia police come or you know, the cavalry comes to the house, and they their response was criticized, and I believe rightly so, I mean, they spent so much time trying to get just the right equipment, you know, the SWAT team you're talking about, I don't know, a twenty man police force in Cheshire, Connecticut, and they put helicopters
in the air and everything and securing a perimeter. In the meantime, the people that they're trying to save are still alive, but wouldn't be for very long, you know. So they had the house surrounded and either Joshua or Hayes lit the match and drop the match, and both of them ran out of the house. They were caught. They had the house went up in flames, an inferno, and you know, you can imagine, you know, I mean,
it was doused with gasoline. You dropped the match. House went up like a like a tinder box, and Hayes and Joshua were caught. There was a roadblock at the end of sorger Mill Drive. They tried to run right through it. They told the card they were in the Petit Petit suvy trying to make their escape, and and
you know they were. They were apprehended, you know, one hundred and fifty yards from the house, so there, you know, they didn't get far, but by that time the house was just an inferno, and you know, they said that they heard the girls screaming. Neighbors heard the girl screaming, and you can't you can only imagine the horror that that would happen. Doctor Pettitt was able to escape, He was able to get out of the house. He crawled through the basement bulkhead doors, hopped to a to the
neighbor's house next door. He's actually he testified at the trial. Now, Hayes Hayes trial was just just culminated, had just finished in Hayes was sentenced to see that. Yeah, yeah, Hayes was sentenced to death, the first death sentence in you know, probably fifteen years. There was an execution in two thousand and five, but that fellow was that criminal was sentenced ten years before. So it's the first death sentence in
a long time. And Joshua's trial occurs in early February or mid February, actually it begins, so and you know, there's probably a very good chance that he's going to be sentenced to death also, so you might have a double execution in Connecticut first time ever.
Maybe, you know, right, right, wow, that's incredible tale. Now we've only got a few minutes, but you know, if you can, we can go a little bit longer, because what I found really fascinating was from the interview that you pointed me to, was that and I've seen this myself and there have been a few other authors. I talked to Nick Prawn from a Lethal Marriage about Bernardo Hamalka case, and he said the same thing happened to
him where people were really critical. It surprised him, but he said he had quite a few people calling him, you know, exploitive. Maybe tell us about your experience. I thought it was interesting the response from doctor Pettitt too as well.
Oh yeah, I mean the book came out, and the book was because I now I had three and Joshua. Not only did I carry on this letter of correspondence with him back and forth for over over three months. I had two hundred handwritten pages that he that he sent me, so I had an enormous amount of access to his life and what happened that night in the crime. And then not only that, he invites me to come
up and interview him. And this is months years before his trial, you know, I mean, and the Department of Corrections didn't ask me what I was doing, who I was and I put my name on a visitor's list and then they so, you know, I'm interviewing Joshua commiser Jeski, and I've and I had three face to face interviews with him in in the maximum security prison he's being held.
So I had all of this information and it was and it caused quite a star in Connecticut because the book came out before the trial, and they thought it was going to uh, it was going to you know, because so much of it was Joshua's story that that it thought that it was like, you know, it was going to help the defense. You know, that he that that it was going to show him in a sympathetic light, and so actually nothing could be farther from the truth.
I just told it the way it was. I mean, it wasn't and I don't I don't believe it, but it just tells his life story, you know, and in fact, he had every advantage, you know, like I said before, the way he didn't come from a bad background at all, you know. So, uh so when the book came out, I got it was just a firestorm of reaction mostly from people and uh, you know, and in the neighborhood, in the area of Cheshire, Connecticut. But it was violent,
it was vitriolic. I had phone calls and letters and emails and calling me everything under the sun, saying that I was worse than than than the criminals, that I deserve worse than what they get. I mean, it was pretty and it was really personal. It was a very personal thing. And you know, they questioned my motives and my you know, uh you know, call me a you know, like you said, an opportunist and all, you know, all of this stuff, and none of that was anything. It
was a news story to me. I was I was covering that as a news story, you know, it was it was. It was a horrible crime and it was a terrible thing that happened. But it's a news story and it deserves to be written about it that deserves to be covered. And just because I got an interview with a guy that wasn't my fault, where was I going to turn it down? No, I'm not going to interview him. You know, I'm not going to interview uh the one of the only two people, uh surviving that
had a a a firsthand view of what happened. I mean, doctor pettit too. But doctor Pettitive was in the basement. But there's only two people alive that could tell you what happened inside that house. And I talked to one of them, you know, and I'm going to say I'm not going to use that. Of course I'm going to use it. So so, I mean, you could go on
Amazon dot com and see the city. There's like I don't know how many reviews there are, but there's quite a substantial amount of reviews, and like ninety five percent of them are the worst possible review you can really, but ninety percent of them are they didn't read the book. They didn't read the book, and they say it in their in their critique, in their in their review with a book, how dare this person do that? And how
dare them do that? And you know, I mean, you know, you can understand they needed to be mad at somebody. You know, this was this went rip the hole in this community up there. It was just such a bad, bad crime, you know, and they needed somebody to be mad at. And I came along, and I was the target, no doubt about it. And and doctor Pettitt, you know, I have nothing but respect and an enormous amount of empathy for the man I mean, can you imagine what
what You can't imagine what he went through. And but he was vocal about the book. He made no secret of.
What were here his points though, I mean what specifically what did he say?
Well, why did he criticize it? Well, I got a call from the victim's advocate right before the book came out. Now it was literally like a week before the book came out, and the victim's advocate asked me to hold off on publishing the book until after the trial. And I said, you know, I don't think I can. First of all, I'm the author. You know how it is, you know this the whole machinery goes into a fact.
You know, these books get printed, and you know it's like it's like once the writer sends it in, it's out of their hands, you know. So the publisher. Yeah, so, which is what I told him to talk to the publisher and I think she did. She you know, and I and I said, listen, I'll call my editor. I'll do what you know, because I didn't have you know, I mean, yes, I knew it was going to be sensational and in in in the context of Connecticut, it wasn't a big story. I mean, the book didn't sell.
Uh there's much better selling books out there, But in Connecticut, this was the biggest story for for a month, my book, you know what I mean. It was front page Hartford Current News for for weeks, you know. So it was big, big stuff in Connecticut. And I knew that was going to get that reaction, but I didn't care. I would have held off on it. I would have said, all right, you know, I'll wait till after the trial. You know,
I'll wait after. But my publisher publishers thought differently. They said, no, no way, We're going to capitalize on this. So the book came out, and you know, uh, he it did. It did inhibit It did upset the trial process because they were going to uh try Joshua Commercer Jeesky first, and because the book is so laden with information about him, they decided to try Hayes first. So in that sense, it did did cause a problem. But it was also they also said it was going to taint the jury pool.
Taint the jury pool, can you imagine? I mean that the fact of the matter is is that that they insisted that I guess doctor Pettitt, but the prosecutor insisted on going for the death penalty here, so that both Hayes and commerce ser Jeessky were going to plead guilty to life without parole. They weren't going to contest it. They're going to go to jail for the rest of their lives. But the prosecution said, no, we want these guys, we wanted we want to we want to sentenced to death.
So because of that, they have a trial that gets covered coverage, worldwide coverage absolutely. I mean doctor Pett's going to be on Oprah tomorrow afternoon. I mean that the the uh, the the interest in this, the coverage of this thing was just insane and and every lurid detail about what happened to the eleven year old Michaela, her sister uh Haley, and Jennifer Hawk Pettitt was displayed all
over the newspapers, all over everywhere. I mean, it was just you couldn't you couldn't, you couldn't look at this, the testimony and evidence that was presented at this trial. And that's because of the decision by the prosecutor. And I would imagine doctor Pettitt to go for the death penalty. So the fact that no matter that my book was
going to taint the jury. Well can you imagine them trying to get a jury for the next trial, for Joshua's trial, Now it's going to be I mean, who's not gonna in Connecticut is not going to know about this case and know about all of the you know. So so you know, I guess that was that was Doc Pettit's thought about it, you know, and you know
him here too. I think he needed somebody to be mad at, you know, And and you know, if that's if that's the way it is, that's fine with me, you know, because you know, I, like I said, I I don't you know, I never wanted to hurt this man, and I thought I portrayed his family with dignity and respect in my book. I know I did. I went out of my way to do it. I mean, there was nothing wrong, there was nothing bad there to do it anyhow, But I was not But I did not sensationalize.
And I try to be as as as you know, to put them in the light that they deserved. And I and I think I did so, you know, but you know, what are you going to do? He's you know, So that's that's how that played.
Out, you know, and let me ask you a couple of questions here about this Specifically, I wanted to know because I was involved in our cases are similar, there's some parallels. Anyway, I provided evidence I had a correspondence with the killer for a year and this was well before the trial, well well before the trial. But in that my particular case, he had said he had passed out and didn't remember any anything of the commission of
the crime. But as despite that, even there was other evidence, documentary evidence was given to me, so I in turn contacted police. Now was any part of the criticism and was there was about that that you potentially could have had some evidence? I mean, you're you're talking about the only living witnesses, So when Joshua talks about Hayes, and Hayes talks about Joshua, was there anything like that? And and did you have any responsibility to go to authorities?
And was there any criticism because you didn't and you acted like a journalist and just held back to information. Tell me if there was anything like that in your particular Well.
You're absolutely right, Dan, I mean there was. I mean, Joshua, did uh focus some of the blame on Hayes, and Hayes would turned around in his trial and blame Joshua for it, you know, I mean there was a lot a lot of it about uh, you know, Missus Pettitt. Now there was DNA evidence that that absolutely Hayes raped Missus Pettitt and then he admitted to killing her, you know, in in in court. So you know, there wasn't a
lot of stuff, but there was. But where my hands were tied was there was a gag order on this on on on everybody involved. So the police couldn't talk to me, The lawyers couldn't talk to me. Hayes didn't wasn't going to talk to me. So there was nobody I could go to to uh corroborate Joshua's story. You know, there was nobody I could go to to say, uh, well, what's what's your side? Because they couldn't do it. They would they would, they were, they couldn't. They couldn't talk
to me. So u so. But but that said, you know what, the way Joshua's narrative of the crime plays almost to the to the note the way the prosecution uh uh portrayed the crime. The prosecution's narrative in their in their portrayal of the crime in court was like they were reading my book. I swear there was like just there was just like a few points where it varied,
you know. But all of the things about Joshua hitting doctor Pettitt, about the tying up the girls, about going out for the gasoline, about uh, you know, Joshua's rolling the house, being being the the alpha of this of this duo, all of this stuff that that that I all of the information that I got from Joshua was substantial, substantiated by the prosecution, you know, so you know he was he was. He proved to be a credible, incredible,
incredible uh source. He was a credible source. Joshua. Now, uh, he he never copped. He never admitted to killing anybody. He said that he didn't uh he didn't want anybody to die in the house, and stuff like that. And that's where his story starts to lose lose its validity, because there's no doubt that that you know, he was, he was. It was his plan to kill everybody in the house. I have no doubt I have I don't. I don't doubt that for a second.
Well, how does he how does he how does he argue against that the gasoline around the beds? Where did you get that information? And how does he how does he argue against that?
I mean, he can't he and and I asked him about it. Now now I'm in, I'm in when i'm when I'm interviewing. It's not like I'm interviewing him on the phone or over you know, it's over coffee at Starbucks. I mean, he's in a maximum security prison. It's being taped. He knows it's being taped. I know it's being taped. It's like, there's I can't I can't be as blunt in Michael, or nor can I guess I could be as blunt as I want, But he's not going to be as as forthcoming and his answers as as as
he might have might have been. Because even though he said to me, I don't care, he said, I I know they're going to execute me, and I don't care. I want to die. And Hayes said the same thing. You know, Hayes has said the same thing. But they're both they're both criminals, and they're both liars by by nature, you know, so so you know, I think that he got to the point where it where he could have said, yeah, you're right, I dropped the match and I sort of fire go up around the girls and I ran out
of the house. But he never said he wouldn't say that to me. But it was it was, you know, it was it was. I mean, it's pretty certain that that that happened, you know, And.
He downplayed the rape too. You had said too that it seemed, you know, you get deduce logically that there was something else to it other than just robbery by the targeting with Mike Yela, but he denied that. So that's another thing that he denies, even though yeah.
You're right, and there's a body of evidence that says that it's absolutely what happened. I mean's he's borderline. He's a better borderline pedophile. I mean, he said, you know, I only mentioned two sixteen year olds, but he's got
a whole history of it. Seems like he stopped maturing in his excuse me, his sexual appetite when he was sixteen, because he had a girlfriend who was sixteen when he was sixteen, and then he stopped dating anybody older than sixteen until he was twenty six and arrested.
The last time you know, I wanted to ask you too when you were criticized. I'm just very fascinated by this. Was it who were the main criticizer?
Was a members of the public, like yea like that?
But was it the was it the police department at all? Or was it the disc that.
I get criticized? Well, yeah, I got to tell you. In in the in the trial, the Hayeses trial, something came up and it's you know, I don't you know, I h it's it's a little elaborate to tell the story. I don't know how much time we have, but I but I was embarrassed. But they they they actually introduced his evidence in the in the in the penalty phase of Hayes's trial, he had been found guilty and then it goes to penalty phase where where they decide whether
to put him to death or that. During the penalty phase, they used letters that Joshua had written to me because they had copied that. Every Department of Correction copies all
the letters, so they had letters. They introduced that source material into the trial, and they said things at that time that were that put me in a very bad light as a journalist, as as a human being, you know, and and in court came out so and and it had nothing to do with Hayes's whether Hayes was should be put to death in that And and I'm absolutely certain that it was done to to humiliate me because I think that I had put the Department of Corrections.
I mean, they came out looking you know that they let me in there to interview this guy three times. You know that they let all of that, They let me carry on this correspondence with this guy. This is, without a doubt, the highest profile criminal in Connecticut in twenty years. I mean, without it down, nobody's even close second, you know, And they absolutely it was like I was visiting a relative, you know. I mean, I had such access to this guy, and and and I no doubt ruffled,
ruffled those kind of feathers. And I and and that the book came out before the trial, I think because doctor Pettitt was such is such an influential presence up there, and he really really was, you know, adoring the trial and what have you. I think that, you know, I think they went out of their way to to to
embarrass me, you know. And and and you know, I think that you know, and I probably I'm still there is still an investigation going on that supposedly an open investigation by the Attorney General's office into me and and how I got into visit Joshua, you know, and uh, you know that I misrepresented myself that there was there was other things that that came up that were discussed in trial. Like I said, if you want me to
talk about it would be more than willing to. It's going to take a little time to explain it though, And uh, you know, so I don't know what's going to happen. I might even be subpoena because for because Joshua's trial, because I'm the only journalist to have interviewed him. I mean, I'm probably, outside of his lawyer, the only person that has this kind of information that that you know.
So well, what one last question, because we could go on for another couple of hours, but I think it's more fascinating to us than maybe the audience. But but anyway, what I wanted to ask was that the correspondence is copied by the Department of Corrections. You were saying, yes, it is okay, but did they alert the authorities like the.
District I'm sure it goes right now.
No, no, no, but when did they what did you come first or did they already was that an ongoing thing? And I find it strange that they would let you have this correspondence. Meanwhile, they let you in seemingly like they didn't.
Know who you were. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I mean, you know, you could you could very easily paint a conspiracy theory out of that. I mean, there's no doubt about it. But I don't think it. I mean, my my sense of it, my the way I you know, haven't been you know, a principle in this, in this whole thing, I don't, I don't. I think it was just oversight on their part. I think they just they just drop the ball. I don't think there was no No, I agree with you. I agree with you.
I think they dropped the ball. But at the same time, I just wanted to get that one fact or that information from you. The Department of Corrections, unlike in my case, the Department of Corrections did not copy any of the written material.
Oh, they would record, they would record visits.
But so I knew that. But and so to get around that, he sent me information via a letter and they didn't copy those letters. So I thought it was interesting that you said that the Department of Corrections would record all those letters or keep copies of those letters. But it seems like just to me, that they didn't catch wind to what was going on till you came into the picture and then came forward, and then they said, oh, listen,
we better go back there. And like some people may read a letter, and some people may really read a letter, if you.
Know, yeah, you know. And I'm not one hundred percent sure that they copied all of it, you know, I mean, maybe they only copied, you know, I got because in the in the in court, if court testimony is any indication in court, they said that I had written that there were half a dozen or eight letters that Joshua wrote to me, and that's that's not right. Joshua wrote more than twenty letters to me. So maybe they didn't. Maybe they didn't do their job in that regard either. Maybe they didn't.
They probably caught on late, just like when they finally caught on and.
You were refused visit. So yeah, that was the horse was out of the barn by that time. I mean, he had told me he had given me just about everything but in the first in the first half a dozen letters, I know just about the whole story, so you know, I mean, it was like I said, after after the fact.
Yeah, it's very interesting. Well, I want to thank you Brian for this very very fascinating interview and about a great book and a great story that's still continuing. As we can see. His trial's not even till next year,
you said sometime. And I don't know if I'm a predictor of anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if they call your name up and have you involved even somewhat, because those letters are much better than any confessional ever ever be It's you know, it's much better when the perpetrator said this, and it's written in very strong evidence for sure. But anyway, thank you very much, Brian. I
really appreciate it. People who been listening to the program have been listening to Brian McDonald with his book In the Middle of the Night, the shocking true story of a family killed in cold blood in the middle of the night. Thank you very much, Brian McDonald for coming on the program and a great interview.
Thank you very much. Thanks Dan, have a good evening. Bye right bye, bye bye.
Bye.
You've been listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history, and the authors that have written about them, with your host Dan Pasky. Good evening,
