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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening. Human trafficking is the trade of people for forced labor or sex. It also includes the illegal extraction of human organs and tissues, and is an extremely ruthless and dangerous industry plaguing our world today. Most believe human trafficking occurs in countries with no human rights legislation. This is a myth. All types of human trafficking are alive and well in most of the developed countries of the world,
like the United States, Canada, and the UK. It is estimated that one hundred and fifty billion dollars a year is generated in the forced labor industry alone. Is also believed that twenty one million people are trapped in modern day slavery, exploited for sex, labor, or organs. Most also believe, since they live in a free country, there is a built in protection against such illegal practices. But for many
this is not the case. Traffickers tend to focus on the most vulnerable in our society, but trafficking can happen to any one. The book that we're featuring this evening is In Chains, the Dangerous World of Human Trafficking, with my special guests, journalist and author and host of the radio program House of Mystery, Alan are warn But welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Alan R.
Warren, Well, it's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for asking me.
Thank you very much. Another very very interesting book talking about another aspect of an area that we're just gaining an interest and an insight into, which is human trafficking another true crime topic and something to discuss. That's, like we mentioned in the introduction plaguing our world. Tell us a little bit about why you decided to write a book, why was this of interest to you, And tell us a little bit about this process of writing this book
In Chains with RJ. Parker, tell us a little bit about that.
Well, actually he approached me. It was a project that he was working on and had spent a little bit of time on, and at first when I heard what he was doing, I was kind of not super interested, and I think that I was really unaware of what was really going on in the human trafficking world and
what was real and what wasn't. You know, there's so many bad rumors out there and myths that I think I was like a lot of average people in the country, thinking, yeah, I don't know, it might be okay, And so I left it and didn't bother. But after a while he kind of kept bringing up things. So I started searching, and I started looking for people that were involved in
human trafficking. And when I started getting a few interviews and putting together some stories, it sort of grabbed a hold of me because these are when it becomes real, Like when you meet someone and they actually give you their story. We start to realize that this is happening every day, and it's happening in our country, and it's happening to people like you and I. It's happening to men, women of all ages, and of all race and all income brackets. It's not like it was just specific to
the poor. Of course they get picked on more. But so that really drew me in, and I think that it really surprised me because all of a sudden, I had twenty twenty five personal stories in human trafficking, and it just became so real. I had to follow this through, if you know, I couldn't leave it incomplete.
Now, what, as you write in the book, what comprises human trafficking? You talked about labor, sex, human organs, So tell us about what is the magnitude of this problem. What does it all entail?
Well, now, it seems to be it's really divided into a few different areas. The biggest area that most people are aware of, of course, is sex trafficking, you know, where someone is used for sexual pleasure for money and they're forced into it. And the next one was the organ trafficking, which really caught me by surprise. They didn't realize it was so major, you know, people actually having
their organs stolen or sold. And then the labor trafficking, of course, which we probably deal with every day but don't realize it, you know, in the farms and the restaurants and spas and salons that we used, our friends and family use. So that's kind of the main sections of human trafficking.
Now you talk about in the book that there has been I guess obviously some attempts to address this incredible international problem. In January of this year, it was proclaimed National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month by the Department of Homeland Security in the US. You talk about the blue campaign where you would blue wear Blue Day. This was January s Obama. President Obama had enacted this January eleventh.
The show's solidarity. You talk about a nonprofit organization, Polaris, which has a national human Trafficking hotline collecting data since two thousand and three, which have identified over twenty two thousand victims of trafficking just in the US alone. And you say the Department of Justice, federal prosecutors federally prosecuted over nine hundred human trafficking cases and some of the states that were found to be most prevalent would be California, Texas,
and Florida. Now, tell us a little bit about when we talked about the myth that only trafficking, human trafficking is done in these countries where there's no legislation, no laws, no enforcement. We're imagining third world countries. But tell us what you've.
Found, Well, it's the whole world is connected on this. It just isn't happening in one place, it's happening wherever they need it to happen, and so you know, in the United States it's happening as mans as it is happening anywhere in the world, and in fact, probably more.
There are people that are taken off the streets and used and forced into some sort of sexual slave you know, spa prostitution ring, and that they're teenage girls, boys, and then they're also used on the farms, and they're used in the different trades, and it's really just slave labor,
it's all it is. And most people sort of just think that it's, you know, something that's distant, that something that goes on in countries where there's yeah, not much policing and stuff like that, and that's not the case. If anything, what the poor countries do is supply a lot of body parts for the richer countries because it's easier to take them from poor countries and people in the countries than it is to get them out of people in the US or the UK. But of recent
that's been happening a lot too. It's not just from the poor countries, so it's really all about supply and demand. There's a big demand in rich countries, the US, the UK, parts of Canada, Australia, and that's not that there's other countries too. But when you have a high demand and you have a good income and wealthy people they want something.
They want things like whether it be sex, whether it be slave labor, or whether it's they need a new liver, and they have the money to buy it, buy it, and so they they they make the purchase and the brokers get them from wherever they can, and different brokers have different setups. It's it's it's just it's a massive organization and several of them. There's not just one group, there's several and they all have their own methods. It's it's like the drug drug traff drink drug trade, right,
it's the same thing. It comes from all over the world and it gets into where people can pay for it and it's about business to the to the traffickers and the people that are getting it. It's just about getting the service they want. So it's it's not just the little bits of things that you see in movies and TVs. It's going on all over and it's probably going on where you live. It's probably in places you've
gone places, you've gone to eat. It's just amazing how close it is to us and we don't realize it. That's probably the biggest misconception people have about trafficking.
You include all kinds of antidotes and stories in this one that demonstrates how much of a need there is for certain organs, and you even include the official or unofficial I guess price tags on these organs. The heart one hundred and nineteen thousand dollars, a small intest in one hundred. I can't remember the exact amount, but you
had specific organs, specific prices. Now people will again would think, oh, geez, some lawless place where a doctor doesn't have to have these elaborate records that could be scrutinized being because you do write and include that there's only so many organs available, so many kidney transplants, and there's people with money waiting on a list. You even include people voluntarily in Chicago.
So tell us a little bit about how far this goes and how could it happen in the place like the United States.
Well, right now in the US, we have one hundred and twenty three thousand people that are on that wait list, and people are dying every day waiting for this. So what's happening is people with a good amount of wealth enough to pay for things actually end up buying their organ and so again it's that supply and demand, and so yeah, there's countries that they can get it from.
These brokers have set up deals with hospitals in the US as well as doctors, and what they do is they get the list and they get the organ that's needed. And you're like a kidney, a small intestine, or a stomach. It could be a liver or a heart. Shoulder seems to be a big one, and even skulls and teeth like body like pieces of them. And and it's going the biggest market is in America, and so they take
they get it wherever they have to. And so if they don't have enough coming from the poorer countries or they can't get it there soon enough for the person that they're buying it for, they end up taking it
from people in America themselves. And we come across cases where they would take it from Really it's it's homeless people, it's people with no connections, or it can be younger people that they just actually steal from so they catch them in a it'suation where they get them alone and they they basically it's kind of like that story where you wake up in the bathtub without you know, a liver,
and it's it's almost that bad. You know. We have the people that you know, get get they get caught up in a situation where they don't realize that they need someone to go up for drinks and dinner and the next thing they know, they've had some pieces taken. So the brokers will get it wherever they have to get it because it's a big demand and it's big money, and you know, it's just it's just I don't see
any end to it, because this is going to continue. Uh, There's going to be people with money enough to buy these body parts and they need to get them, and they're not going to be waiting on a wait list with everyone else. It's just it's just not how it is. I included that NBCC news investigation that they had with a kidney broker and how he was selling the kidneys and the FBI caught him, and you know, that's a
typical case. So you know he's selling three kidneys or four hundred and ten thousand bucks, and he obtained them from poor Israeli donors for ten thousand each. So what cost him thirty thousand, He made four hundred and ten
thousand on it. And so you know, this is going on, and what they talk about the find and that's the other thing, you know, you know a little bit of a small jail time and a fine of fifty thousand, you know, in his particular case, the one we have in the book, he was sentenced to two and a half years, you know, and the man made you know, a lot of money. So that doesn't deter them atall. It doesn't stop them from doing they're doing.
You also include the notorious, of course, everybody's scapegoat country, China in this extraction kind of industry. Tell us a little bit about that.
Yeah, there's Chinese hospitals and they're run by the Communist Party, and just that's a lot of things.
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Are And they are one of the most mass of the largest harvesters of the body organs for trafficking. And what they say in two thousand and six, I think was the last report that I had, they actually trafficked ten thousand organs and they took them from their prisoners, and they took them by force. And so we're not talking about you know, people willingly saying okay, well you can take this or take that and pay me so much. They were just taking them. It's just too bad we're
taking it. And they say that they've sold those ten thousand organs for a total of about a billion dollars in US money. And there's a documentary we got a lot of that information from called Human Harvest, and it's on China's organ trafficking. That's massive. If you think about that, you know, in one year, their own hospitals got ten thousand organs and sold them throughout the world for a billion.
You really have to stop and really let that in ten thousand pieces of people they took by force and sold it. Just you know, I don't even know what you can say about that like that. That's that's huge. This is this is like a whole new trend, a whole new drug industry going on. It's just a it's
just a different item that they're selling. I just don't see that it's getting any better because countries like that and Indonesia and there's there's so many countries out there, Brazil that allow it to happen, and they're not trying to stop it, and they're not trying to deter it. And and of course again you've got the demand for it, they'll fill that demand. They'll get that, they'll get the parts needed, and it doesn't matter about the people the victims.
Well, you also show demonstrate in this book too that the a young child, I think six years old or a young anyway, a young boy was left in a field missing his eyes. So we know that through the forces of human nature and greed and again demand and supply, that they're going to It's not much of a story down the road to imagine that people will be not in a hospital, not be in China, just be victims potentially of people that want to make some money anyway
they can. Let's talk about an incredible example that you include in the book International Sex Ring. But we're talking about Albuquerque Motel six. But really what this story demonstrates is how through a website like Backpage, that this can actually happen. You explain how Backpage and through complaints and
through many articles, and how Backpage facilitated this. So tell us about the back Page, what they did, how they did it, and the flight to be able to you know, shut down back Page and very well demonstrated in this Albuquerque Motel six case. Tell us, as you write in the book about this case.
Yeah, Well, for for people that don't know, Backpage was like Craigslist, and but it mainly focused on just want ads specific it was a lot more in prostitution, uh, people meeting people like hooking up and there was it was more of that kind of of of a website than Craigslist. Craigslist had that, but they had so much more like you could buy you know, auto parts and fridge and still over and all that like it was.
It was, you know, a rented apartment. Backpage mainly focused on meetups, and so what it happened is backpage became one of the key places to go to. So it ended up it would allow people to advertise an array of services that had many sexual appetites, if you will. So it included things like bondage, s and m the cook encounters, you name it, it was there. You had a you're into feet, you're into arms, you know, whatever it was,
and you could find it. And so what happened was a lot of the traffickers and I guess online pimps you would call them. They if they had different types of girls that would do different things and fulfill different needs, and they would advertise them on there and as well as answer ads. So of course the FBI was always on the lookout and they're always searching for missing people or girls mainly girls in these boys as well that
had gone missing that were possibly being trafficked. And so if they would find someone and their picture, they would do it through Backpage, mainly someone Craigslist, you know, they would see the picture and they would set up a sting and they would recover the lost person, you know, and that happened. But what happened eventually it was all shut down. So they shut down back Page completely, and they shut down the Craigslist the services section, so neither
one of them were going anymore. So they were left with no single place to monk, you know, the people for sexual traffic. So what happened was now it's gone to an array of sights all over the world. So it's made the job really hard for the FBI in the sense that they've got to be constantly searching for sites all through the world and new sites, and it's changing all the time, and it's made their job a
lot harder. Now that I'm for advertising sex, but I think the initial intention was to make this, you know, go away, to fix this, and by cutting those it didn't do it, it made it worse. So now they've got so many more man hours to be involved into try and define these, you know, people that were kidnapped and used for sex. And what they're doing is they're finding that there's places being used like hotels and hotels and a motel six was one of these in one
of these cases. And this is becoming a little bit more regular. It's not being used as a chain, don't get me wrong. It's being used as independent units that are owned separately, but under that banner of a chain hotel. And of course they always deny it. They'll say, well, we had no idea what was going on, but the evidence kind of shows that they did know what was happening, and they do know what's going on in their hotel
rooms and how they're selling them. So there's still quite a few open cases on different hotels, not just that motel sixth that we talked about.
You write in this book too, of the growing necessary realization of the magnitude of this problem and the problem itself and dispelling some of these myths that as you write that sex trafficking is not prostitution, you know that there's all these ideas that people have help you who can come to be a slave or to be human trafficked, And you include numerous examples of how easy it can be people duped, complex sophisticated ruses and just brutal ruses, like one girl in her apartment and a man that
she knew as a pimp came and said, listen, we'd like to take you out and she said, look, I got schoolwork. And so it's a schoolgirl and she's taken forcefully from her home and then kidnapped and taken and human trafficked. You talk about a case in two thousand and six. It again demonstrates the difference in attitudes. Again still growing, still maturing in that realization of what really
this is all involved. But this was called Free China, and you talk about her boyfriend, Johnny Allen, and how she ends up in prison. Tell us a little bit about this case that you include, very dramatic Free China and what happens to her.
Yeah, the in a typical case like this, and even like this, a lot of times it happens to girls that are unaware of this of trafficking period, and they live in a half decent community with you know, a
good neighborhood and fairly good home and parents. And in this particular case, it was a sixteen year old and a lot of times what they're doing is they're just running away from home or they meet someone and this case it was a twenty four year old and you know, and they become boyfriend girlfriend in the in the girl's point of view, but what they're really doing, is they're being lured into what's going to end up being a you know, a sex train business. So they get lured
into it. They eventually move in with the guy, like she moved in with a twenty four year old boyfriend, and it just went from there. All of a sudden, it's too late and he starts to force her into prostitution. And that's what happened. And so eventually she was sold out and used for sex several times. And if she tried to do any resistance in this case, she had
been held with a gun, she had been beaten. It just an amazing I don't get too much into the deep details, but I'll give you some of the basics on this. But eventually what happens is she ended up being tried as an adult and convicted for first degree felony murder because of one of them, or one of the guys that you know, the Johns, that been she had been sold to. She had fatally shocked because she had used the purse that she had, the gun she had always had in her purse, and because of the
way he was treating her when they were together. He thought, you know, she thought she was going to be killed, and so you end up with, you know, a sixteen year old that met a guy, ran away from home, and all of a sudden she's used in sex trade and she ends up in a murder and ends up
being put in jail and the free Cynthia. The whole thing about her story is in a documentary that came out in twenty eleven, and they're looking for people to help get her free because people don't think she should be in jail until like, I think it's the age sixty nine for her before she's doing up for parole, you know, so you know she really you know, and this is not this is going on in the States big time. There's so many teenage girls meeting men and
thinking that they've got a boyfriend. They eventually get talked into moving in with the boy and all of a sudden they get moved to another city. They get they change their hair color, changed their looks, and then they put them up for prostitution and they start forcing them they have sex. If they refuse anything, they get beat,
they get choked, they get raped savagely. It's just a it's a it's a terrible situation and you can end up like Cynthia Brown, where you end up actually in the defense of yourself killing someone and you end up being put away for your whole life, and it's just a it's just a it's just a terrible scenario and it doesn't come up any good for anybody.
Yes, it's incredible too. That again unlikely advocate Kim Kardashian, and we've heard a little bit about her fighting for people's rights, not women's rights. Wrongfully convicted or what she thinks in this case is just an unjust conviction. Kim Kardashian met with, of course, the President Trump May two thousand and eight, trying to have this case appealed. Interesting too that this victim, we as you write in this book, not eligible for parole till she's sixty nine years old.
In twenty twelve, there was a situation where she might have because it was a mandatory life for a juvenile because she was sixteen years old, was unconstitutional, but of course she was not eligible for that. And so any kind of changes and changes an attitude towards this, like celebrities lining up to help defend her with this and plead her case. That's the kinds of things that are slow to progress while this woman still sits in prison despite celebrities and their connections.
Yeah, and that's unfortunate because now, not not saying, not putting down Kim Kardashian, but uh, the problem is we need people that have more more saying in who in what they do, more credibility, I guess is what it is, because like you know, that scenario happened with her and Donald Trump and nothing changed nothing. You know, It's it's almost like something to put on your Facebook page and
then next week it's something else. We need people to really get involved and do the work and make something happen that you know. I'm so I appreciate that she's making an effort and she brought it to everyone's attention, but we've got to stay on it. We can't. We can't just have that and you make the news cycle and you smile and take some pictures and then everybody walks away. Nothing goes, nothing is on the people. We have to keep on this otherwise it's not going to stop.
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Then enter promo code true murder shipstation dot com. Make ship happen now. Alan I mentioned talking about a victim, Marinella, a seventeen year old and she was at her apartment as I mentioned, and this pimp named Pornell and another gentleman named Marius Negeloveneux talked about a barbecue. Can you tell us a little bit about this particularly disturbing case and what happened to her and how long it took her to get back to Romania?
Well, like so many of the others, Yeah, it just you know, I can't, I can't even you know. It's it's again, it's a typical person that's struggling to survive, make rent tuition, and they end up being being caught up in something where they think they're you know, just being part of a of a party or a barbecue and meeting friends and stuff, and and and they get taken and they get forced into this sexual situation where
they're used. They're trafficked really to people that have money, and and sometimes they never get out and the few that do it just sort of it takes away their life. It takes away almost their whole life. There's there's almost nothing, nothing left. By the time they they they come out there, they're already close to thirty or late twenties, and and
it's just ruined their whole life. It's it's really hard for me to get into a lot of the details of these cases we wrote because we did most of them last year, but they all end up much the same, and they all go through the same sort of thing. And the worst part again out of it is the
traffickers that get caught. If they get caught, the prosecution rate is probably in the twenty to thirty percent ratio because most of the people that are victimized will testify, and that's one major problem, you know, getting actual people to do anything and to come to court, and a lot of times it's far too late. So you know, they if they do get caught, chances are nothing much
will happen to most of them. You can say probably about seventy five percent of them get off with with no they get away with it.
In this case where you talk about Marinella sh in the f it's incredible because you get these kinds of details. On the very first day she made three hundred pounds, enough to support her family for six weeks, and yet she didn't get anything and would have to ask for a cigarette or a coffee, never let outside, and she was taken to Manchester. Was fifteen other girls there beaten.
They were often beaten, and the break came in May two thousand and nine when they came to avoid uh arrest part made in Asia of Elenu based on a tip and police saw the situation there. Now the father, which was even more disturbing. The father's involved with this man named Bogden, and in courts, unlike what you say, often most often there's not really any prosecution or they
avoid prosecution. The father got six years and this Netcha Neges of Elenoux got twenty one years, and finally in twenty eleven you write that Marinello returned to her parents in Romania. So an incredible ordeal, and that's just again, like you write, it's typical of many of the cases, whether they're from Romania or where they're from a ruse
or some forceful entry into the sex trafficking world. As you say, it's very dangerous because obviously you have another story in here where a couple people involved in this Motel six I believe were murdered. Actually, but they were involved, and I guess the people that are running this organization
didn't like how they were doing things. So, as you write in the book, this is a very dangerous world that it's being created from this human trafficking people that will do anything with anyone, treat anyone like a victim, and make anyone a victim. And if I guess it's a precarious situation where they might have prosecution, might be convicted. These people are like, you're right. They're often intimidated from wit testifying at trial, but more often they're just go missing, don't.
They Yeah, Quite often they just disappear. Quite a few of them are in hiding. And if they do come out and you do get to see them tell their story, whether it be to an author like me or RJ or if you're in a documentary or something, you know they have to have their name changed and they have to have their looks altered. A lot of them live the rest of their life scared because they know that most people that are doing the trafficking have a lot
of contacts. They're all over there. They're in every city in the US, for instance. They're moving girls and people around all the time, and they have a lot of money, and so they're scared. They're really scared to go and testify. If you're lucky, one or two people in the group in the chain of command get put in jail for
a couple of years. There's still a lot of people that are in that trafficking group that will come get you, or they're really scared of that, or they'll get your family, and quite a bit in the stories, if you know this, you know, they get told. You know, a fourteen year old or sixteen year old girl that being held in a different city gets told you if you run away, well we'll go to you. We know your family will kill your brother, you'll kill your mother. And they believe it,
you know. So they're living in a total on the edge, and just because they get free doesn't mean it goes away. It's because it's still going on and they're left in a in limbo, so to speak, just sitting and you know, and it gives you a good indication, like if people would as soon as you read the introduction, because just when we were finishing the book, it was with Robert Kraft, New England Patriot owner when he got caught, you know, with the girls in that spa in Florida, and the
whole idea is, you know what will happen. He won't even end up in court. He wanted to w jail. You know, this multimillionaire billionaire will have a couple of thousand dollars flying at max. The girls that got caught that were working in the spa all get convicted, sent back to China or where were they from. Most of them were from China, and then they have a tainted name because of what they got caught doing back home,
and so it's ruined their reputation. And then the owner of the spa happens to have nineteen other spas servicing in the US. And I can't say I know they're doing the same thing without being sued, but I could
suggest it, you know, And that's the whole problems. So what we're saying is we're saying the people that were actually brought over to the country being told, oh, you're going to be working in a spa in the US and even get a green card and work and become an American, actually get thrown ten to a room with a hot plate and forced to give sexual favors to people for nothing because they're told they have to work it off because they owe fifty thousand dollars or some
huge number for them being brought into the country. So they do this for years, and then if they do get caught, they get sent back home with a bad record, and everyone else that's running it continues to life normal, and you know, they can get a two thousand dollars fine, not a whole lot of money to someone with that kind of money. So we're not ending this. It's just kind of going on and on, and not enough is
being done. I think that's the biggest concern I have, and it's the biggest thing that the book is trying to I mean, I hope it leaves someone when you read it. When you come at the end of the book, I hope you realize that all of this is happening around us in twenty nineteen today, and the people that are doing this to our kids and other people are really getting away scott free and they're making money.
Yeah. You talk about even more disturbing trend is in the Middle East and North Africa what you call the Mena Region or the Mena Region population of a three hundred and eighty million. They have laws against human trafficking, but no enforcement whatsoever. And the biggest concern, of course is the child trafficking. Sixty two percent of victims there are children, most are Asians, Sahara Africans, and thirty five
percent of females traffic mainly for labor. We haven't talked about labor and how extensive that is, that labor slavery. Tell us about just how that works.
Well, the forced labor, you know, this one, this one is really really gets me because you know, we have we have a government in the less that is really focused on you know, homeland security and immigration and all this stuff, and they're talking about forced labor and you know, all you hear all these stories, but the government in the United States and all of the people in the immigration detention centers, like the two hundred centers that are
there and more than what forty eight fifty thousand people are now held there. Two thirds of those places are run by private company these so they have contracts with our federal government to run these facilities. And of course a lot of attention has been brought on, but it's more political. You see Democrats talking, you know, kids in cages and no toilet paper and food, and then you've got the other side saying, well, they've they're here illegally.
You kind of got this battle going for politicier. But under that, these two companies, with the current administration, they made two point eight billion dollars to run these to detention centers with you know, fifty two thousand beds, even though they probably have more people in there. So you've got these detention centers where you've got these people that are here, perhaps some wide, some of them are waiting for their hearing and some are illegal. I guess it's
kind of a mix. And then they're then they're told that they have to work. So even though the American prison labor system abolished the whole idea of prisoners having to work, what they're doing is they're telling them that we'll give you a dollar a day in compensation for
each day you work. So you have to volunteer. None of those people are convicted, so you're getting paid a dollar a day, and then they're taking them out to farms in different places and working them full time like a normal person would work for let's say fifteen dollars an hour. So these companies are paying them to do this and they're only having to pay there are people a dollar a day. They made over over what over two billion dollars I believe it was from this type
of labor. So when you're when your federal government is really involved in trafficking labor, the attention doesn't really get focused on anybody else doing it. So it's going on all sorts of levels in the country. So it's a real mess, but you can't I think my point is that if your federal government is doing it, then then white punished people that are doing it that are not
part of the government, Like it doesn't make sense. We have to come up with a better solution to this because, you know, because what's going on now when you talk about the in the States, other companies, there's places that will get illegals and force them to work on ranches and picking fruits and servitude. You know, servicing and made work and all that sort of stuff, and a lot of them get paid almost nothing, if they get paid at all, and they have a terrible living conditions, and
they're really they're really kept. They're just slave labor. It's like the modern day slave is what it is is. But like I said, you've got a government in the same business.
You right, even more disturbing though we talk about labor or forced trafficking, recruiting child soldiers and if that isn't bad enough, giving sex slaves to them for recruitment rewards. And that's how bad it can be in other countries, you're.
Right, Yeah, it's you know, more so than in the US. Yeah, well with the military and the military institement goes on a lot in other countries, more so than in North America. But you know, they're they're taking boys as young as twelve, and they really get stolen and forced into this, and sometimes the parents want them to, sometimes they make them. And some of the stories I have in here, you
see that where it can go either way. You know, someone's forced into it, or someone's gone missing and they've
been taken. And actually it's pretty brutal when it goes through some of these stories, especially that you should you know, when they're in the village and all the all just some of the details you get from him and how he was just going out looking for work with his talent and then all of a sudden becomes forced into this military where he's supposed to be killing and burning people like it just you have to I can't, I can't summarize that. You really have to read that from
that perspective. Now, that's definitely something you're going to You don't see so much in the US, this kind of thing going on, but you see it more in the Third world countries. Definitely an eye opener.
You talk about too, the practical ways in reality how these guys avoid the conviction, but also how some of these women girls are treated, and you say they're treated as illegal immigrants and deported. So even when sometimes they get to authorities, even if they were like you're right that the police wouldn't just inform the traffickers of what goes on and scuttle the entire case. That sometimes the country is very not interested in addressing this issue, and so they deport them, don't they.
Oh, quite often, quite often, and the one immigration visa that we have that's available to people that were forced into this sort of labor or sex sort of trade is limited to how many they give out, and since they've been doing it, not even half of them have been given out. It's it's almost like a h it's almost like they are just for show. They don't actually use it, and nobody tries to get help for these
people that have been victimized. They are forced into this and then treat it terribly, left in jail, and then sent back home if they come from another country, and for them to get that T one visa, it's almost impossible. It just doesn't happen. And the stats show you've had. It's just a terrible it's a vicious circle, and the people that are being used don't get help by the
lego system. All the legal system does appear right now in the US R Canada is it's get them out of the situation and then send them that to their country, and they're not in any better situation. They've got a terrible record and they've been through an awful ordeal that will stay with them the rest of their life. And when they go home, of course, they're shunned. They're not they're not supported or helped, and people don't treat them
while people just own them. It's just it's just a vicious circle going around and around, and it's it's not a good outcome. We're not helping the victims in this case.
Before we talk about what kind of help and who might possibly be helping them. This is something I didn't know. And you provide a photo tell us about the importance and the significance of tattoos.
Oh, yeah, you know, and that was kind of I think a lot of people don't realize that's what you know. That's why it's kind of the book. We tried to make sure we include it as much as we could, but with the amount of material we had without getting too detailed, but enough that you can realize, wow, the
truths and what's really going on. And in that were you're talking about the tattoos, they're actually finding survivors of sex traffic work and this in the particular case we talk about is in Wisconsin, and and it's a whole new way of exploiting. So they're actually branding them with tattoos.
And yeah, we've included I believe we have one or two pictures and it looks like a barcode, Like it's something you would buy in the groceries when you go pick up your groceries, you know the boxes and the cans and all that, and have those little bar codes and they can just scan them and the price comes up and you pay. So that's what they're looking like.
And they're doing that, and it seems to be they're doing it on women and children victims, and it seems to be all sex trafficking so far, I haven't we didn't come across anything or the FPI reports it's only in commercial sex trafficking. So I think they had what somewhere around thirty four to fifty nine in twenty seventeen. So yeah, anyway, it's just you got a picture of
it in the book. You'll see there's actually a few different ones, and they're mainly done on the wrist, or they're done them on the back part, the lower part of the neck.
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We talked.
You mentioned how people could be helped, what is going on? And I mentioned Polaris and the Blue Campaign. You also include the United Let me see what's the U N O D I believe it is, and some of the drafts of the Anti Human trafficking legislation. Some inroads in Armenia, Lebanon, South Africa actually also allowed to train police departments in Burkina Faso, in Ghana, Nigeria, Togo, Ukraine, and South Africa.
And then they're also training border guards, prison police officers, prosecutors and judges in some of those countries again including Laos, Moldivia, Nigeria, Ukraine. So there is you have to admit, there is some realization even though you have a pessimistic outcome, this isn't going away. It's going to get worse. There is some initiatives to try to address this. Aren't there that you include in the book?
Oh? Yeah, you know, we've included that the hotline as well human trafficking, and we've given we've given tips or things to look for how to recognize and report human trafficking. There's a whole chapter in there about that because it's
it's it's the key thing in solving this. I think I'm pasistic mainly because the legal system has done nothing to really remedy it is, and it's not really set up to help the victims, and and it's proven that over and over again, and it's still to this day, and and the thing is the human trafficking is getting worse in all areas, whether it's sexual, labor or or body parts, and this is continuing and there doesn't seem to be enough awareness of it people, the average person.
Could You can still go up and say have you heard about trafficking? And they'll just sort of look at you, you know, And and they're not They're not going out looking for it. They're not seeing it in their spas, they're not looking to see if someone who is being mistreated in a restaurant or anything like that. We're just not really focused or paying attention to it. So I think that's my issue with it, and that's the more
of the meaning of the book. The nonprofit organizations like Polarios and things like that, and even WHO the World Health Organization only sort of have so much impact in the country and in the world. They do a lot of promoting and talking about it and the Blue Month and all that stuff. But still, I bet you if you asked almost everyone around you and everyone you know, if they knew that January was Blue Month and it was about human trafficking and all that, they wouldn't have
a clue. And that's kind of my my downside of this. I want to see people get involved, wake up, and get on it, and think about it on a daily basis, because happening around us all the time, and we need to start we're responsible for each other and we need to start helping each other through these things. And I like to see the laws go further, and I like to see more of this training. It shouldn't just be in a couple of states, or a couple of border
guards or a couple of groups. It should be something that we're all paying attention to and we're all thinking about, and we're training all of our police, all of our hospitals, all of our service people should be aware of this because that's the only way we're going to get a handle on it.
Right.
You talk about getting a handle Immigration and Customs Enforcement ICE in twenty and sixteen, they arrested three hundred and twenty eleven nine hundred and thirty eight twenty sixteen, and then almost two thousand went on, almost two thousand convictions but or pardon me, arrests, but you put the disturbing number. Only half have been convicted out of those two thousands. And then you talk about you know, lenient sentences, But that's incredible lack of conviction, isn't it.
It's terrible, It's terrible, And I put I've put a few samples of stories from ICE on victims, and I think that's really important too. So that's kind of what it's kind of think. The whole driving thing for me is you've got Homeland security and ICE that's should be the most aware, it should be on top of it the most. And I'm not trying to give them grief or put them down. I respect what they do, but that only half actually anything comes from it's it's it's terrible.
It's terrible that these things are happening to so many of the young and helpless and even poor people. That just I think what it does is it drives you nuts.
When you go through this and see all these stories and I'm only scratching the service with his book, you will see how many people and young people so young have been put through this ordeal and they've survived, and there's really no there's no support for them, very little support, and there's really no justice for them either because we're just not convicting them. You know, even when ICE can't get the job done. You know that we have to be doing something.
You also talk about in Ontario and Canada sixty five percent of all the human trafficking cases there and the biggest province in Canada conviction rate seven percent. Talk about impunity the big problem, and you also write about forty percent of countries few or no convictions over the last ten years. I think that's even more disturbing.
Yeah, yeah, and that's I think I think that's kind of you know, when you start getting through you know, it's like a story. You know, you come out and you hear a story and you're you're going through it, and something bad happens, and then you know you want that happy ending. And the problem is in this case, you start reading these numbers and looking at the facts and you start realizing that there's no happy ending here.
There's not even a band aid going on here. It's just it's just it's really wow, it's all you can say. You know, you keep finding out more and more and you start realizing it, Wow, there's just there's just nothing going on, Like we're letting all this happen, and it's becoming bigger and there's people that are getting into this business, so to speak, and they're doing it because there's really
no there's nothing, there's no fight back. You know, you've got better odds of running a trafficking business and getting through it not not convicted or even prosecuted, and making lots of money. And then you do most crime rings right now, you know, drugs or it's just it's just crazy and we're talking about human beings. Human beings is the product, and yeah, it's just you know, and that's kind of I think the the hard thing because this,
this should actually be focused news. This should be the number one topic on the news more than it is not. Not the stuff they talk about now about you know, well, you know, you turn on the news, you see and very seldom to see you, very seldom to see the story about this, and if you do, it's it's halfway through the news and it's just that, oh, police picked up, you know, two people that were trafficking fourteen in some sort of ring, and you might not hear about it
again because it probably won't go to court. If it does, it doesn't get conviction, it doesn't get any any any any legs. So that that's kind of what I'm what I hope I get across in.
This book, do you think that I guess with the arrest of Epstein and R Kelly with new charges even though he I've charges brought up from previously and then I don't know if we recharging him. But what my point is is that the attitudal change in society, it seems kind of quickly or overnight, maybe because it's celebrity driven. And you talk about Kim Kardashian trying to help out someone that was convicted for shooting her what other people
would call a pimp. Do you think the me too movement is maybe some cause for optimism in this and then those same people that created that quickly that scidal attitudal change might apply that energy to something like that. As if someone like Kim Kardashian is weighing in.
On the issue, I'm not that excited about it. You know, the whole Epstein thing again, because how they how it's marketed. It's marketed about politics. The majority of the stories in all the networks, what are they talking about. They're talking about who is with you know, you know, everything you get it's about, Oh, here's a picture of Bill Clinton with them, Here's a picture of Donald Trump. They're best friends.
It's all political and they want to use it again see each other, and we're not again, that's all you've heard about, and that's all that That's what they're making it.
They're not making it about the actual victims. We're not focused in on the people that were hurt by this, or focused in on, oh, you know, the whole half of the country, you know, throwing famous Democrats with him, and then you've got half the country throwing uh, famous Republicans And it's like, that's really not what it's about.
This man had done some awful things and he's been accused of some awful things, but they're not talking about the things he did and the victims and how what should be changed and how did he, you know, get away with it for years and stuff other than you get a blame you know of someone that oh he give him a light sentence because he's a Republican or is you know, it's it's just I just mean, the
focus is somewhere else. You talk to anybody about, you know, someone I was just interviewed for the Law Network in the last week about this book, and that was their focus. What do you think it seems going to get what do you nobody cares about what's really going on in the heart of what he's doing, the business he was running, and the people that he hurt, and where are they now and what's happened to them and what are we going to do about that? And how do we make
it so this doesn't go on? You know? That's yeah. So I'm you know, I'm not as excited about it, I guess as I as a lot of people might be. But because I really don't care if Trump and Clinton were on the plane with them. I mean, I care, but that my focus is on. It's just that what he was doing to these people and what should happen and how do we fix this and how do we help those people?
You know, doesn't doesn't The story, though, demonstrate Clinton, both Clinton and among other people. But but Clinton and Trump fiercely geometrically opposed, at least from that before the election and on. They represent two different things. They present two completely different views, and yet they both were friends with this guy. And this is well known. I mean, we've been hearing these rumors for years. This is not like a oh geez, what a surprise. So it seems to be indicative of it.
Yeah, yeah, you know, he's a big you know, it was just like the Harvey Weinstein or you know, it's just these people have a lot of power, They have
a lot of money and a lot of influence. So when it comes to elections, they call on these people, they hang out with these people, they're friends with these people, they party with them, they fly to the island, they do all these things because it's about getting elected, and it's about getting money from these people and getting support because someone endorses you all of their fans, you know, So it's all kind of a and he's he was a big power with a lot of money and a
lot of influence as long as a lot of these people that are being taken down are in that situation. So it's a perfect bad fellow, if you will, that bad wording, but of politician, you know, you want these especially in the US, because lobbying is really the basis of an American political system. So that's how it works. And so unfortunately, we'll probably find all sorts of ties to him and other rich people that have done all
sorts of bad things. And I don't really blame either one of them because I think they're both doing it for the same reason. You know, I don't know if they were involved. I don't think we can tell at this point. But it should be more about what kind of a situation is drawn from rich people like this that do these things, and what kind of laws you're there to vent it, and what kind of what kind of system do we have set up for these victims? Where can they go, who can they call, who's going
to help them? How can they get out of these situations? We need to be looking at that more than you know, what other rich people are in there. I mean, if they were involved, they should be taken down too. If they're just friends and can't do much about that, but you know, so we need to be focusing really on the crime and fixing the crime, because at this point, whatever he did do, it's kind of past tense. Now he's done it and we can't go back and change it.
But we can we can look at that and make everyone aware of what he was doing and to who he was doing. Who are the victims, how many people did he get and where did he get them from? And how come they were not why how come they never came forward, and how come none of their families, and like, we have to know more about really what goes on in these things. So I hope that's where it goes, but so far it hasn't really done that.
Yeah, it's a thing that you write about that allude to that this is the most the dangerous world of human trafficking. But only if we extrapolate from this information and say, how dangerous can it be in another five or ten years with these kinds of unscrupulous beyond I mean unscrupulous is an understatement incredibly that what will these
people do? What will they resort to? Like you say, when criminal organizations now are using the profits of child sex, slavery, and other types of human trafficking to incredible profits, And if that's the case, and it is the case, then you can see nothing but a growing trend towards more
and more. And if our imaginations are blown by the information that's in your book, and you were blown away by the information you uncovered from the victim stories that you include in the book, like you say, I share your lack of optimism that we will really be able to address something that's incredibly important to address.
Yeah, I can only hope for the best, you know, and even the er Kelly thing, you know, when you talk about that, it's not really I mean, I don't know the depths of it, but a lot of what he did was having sex with underage girls and moving them across state lines, which is a bad thing. But I don't know if it's going to really help bring attention to trafficking per se and what's going on, like in the book, in the cases we covered about people being held and forced to work, are half sex, are
taken their body, you know, people like that. It's what I want to get people aware of, not so much the r Kelly thing, but that that's a concern too. I'm not you know, saying it's okay. It's just if not the same type of the trafficking that was going on that we covered.
I just see that if law enforcement and law enforcement and prosecutors in other countries are unable for various reasons, and there's a myriad of reasons why some countries would be reluctant, hesitant, less likely to want to prosecute because of the economies of those countries and the governments that are in h and the attitude that seems to be if people don't care so much because they think it's
just a case of prostitution. If you include a story in your book about a young girl that has a boyfriend and then she takes drugs or he introduces her, a lot of people again would not be as the victim is not as sympathetic as other victims, and as we know in true crime, and you know that it seems to be we have to have this clear cut, virginal, pure white beyond a very very innocent victim for us to be able to relate. And so I find it.
It's interesting but disturbing. But I hope that through awareness like this book and then a lot of the stories about human trafficking, that it will be a ground swell from society itself to look at this the right way, not to look at the myths or the misperceptions, and to be able to look at this and then take some sort of action.
Yeah, exactly. And I hope that's where it comes to. And I hope that there's been a lot of attention on the book and a lot of people talking, and it's done quite well, and I hope that it continues. I hope people passing on tell other people and talk about it, and because that's the only way we're going to stop it, the only way we're going to make any changes if we all get on board. Right.
Well, Ellen, I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about in chains, the dangerous world of human trafficking. It's been very, very enlightening. Thank you very much, Alan Warren for this interview.
Well, thank you for having me, and thank you for taking on this subject.
It's important now for those people that might want to take a look and maybe listen to your House of Mystery, tell us a little bit about websites and where they might take a look at your books. Tell us about that information.
Well, the House of Mystery is on ca c A A one oh six point five FM in Los Angeles, Palm Springs and Riverside. And you can go to the House of Mystery dot com of course to get any of the old shows on podcasts, and of course casea itself if you want to listen to it live. And my own books of course, alanar Warren dot com. And they're at Amazon and Barnes and Noble and in Canada now they're in three chapters now, so chapters Intego and I guess hopefully even more.
Absolutely well, thank you very much, Alan, it's been a pleasure. You have a great night. Hope to speak to you again, so good night.
Thank you, good night boy.
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