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Plus you are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written Aboutrum Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good evening. In the small city of ben Hampton in upstate New York, twenty three year old Veronica Taft, a single mother with four small children all under the age of five, was convicted of murder and manslaughter for the brutal murder of her two year old son Lee. She was sentenced to twenty five years to life and state prison, with her surviving children taken away and placed in foster care.
After more than five years in prison, Taft was set free after a bombshell appellate court decision found the verdict was against the weight of the evidence. The court overturned the theory and evidence used by authorities, including time of death, Taft's ALAMAI, and controversial testimony of a desperate jail house snitch working on behalf of Taft. Defense investigator David M.
Beers conducted an independent investigation. In his account, Immunity for Murder, he'll guide you through the ill fated police investigation and the shameful prosecution that, contrary to the evidence, quickly turned the tides towards Veronica and away from the real killer. This book will closely look at the suspect, bizarre events and disturbing facts never before revealed. Furthermore, it'll show how the evidence proves tasts innocence, which is why he considers
her story a tragic miscarriage of justice. The book that we're featuring this evening is Immunity for Murder, The Veronica Taft Story, with my special guest, author and private investigator, David M. Beers. Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for this interview. David MBA, thanks.
Thanks, thanks for having me. It was quite a story and I was anxious to write it and to talk about it.
Yes, let's take us right back to December thirtieth, twenty ten and bin Hampton and population forty five thousand. You say it's the county seat for Broome County, New York, which is about two hundred thousand. Tell us about Veronica ron Lynn Taft, oldest of four girls. Tell us a little bit about her background, have parents and siblings, tell us a little bit about her life.
Yeah, well, Ronica, when this happened, she was like twenty three years old, but she was. She was born and raised in a little town called the Whitney Point, New York. She was the oldest of four. She had a younger sister and two younger brothers, and she she was brought up in a kind of a middle class home, comfortable little home up in Whitney Point, New York. Went to Whitney Point schools, but when she was in school, she was often you know, she was a very small, small girl.
She was often bullied and teased and ridiculed by by students and school officials. And by by the time she was in about the seventh grade, she was diagnosed with add and ADHD. It never became serious enough to require medication, but did affect her ability to learn in the mainstream, and so she got reassigned. She got classified as learning disabled, and uh they they put her in what they call
an alternative learning center. But surprisingly, once she went there, her she really found her niche and her interest in learning excelled and she became an honorall student, and uh, and she she did exceptionally well later, uh when when she got out of school. I guess you'd back up
a little bit. When when she was in school, even though she was in this alternative learning center, she she was still affiliated with the with the same school district, so she was able to participate in their extracurricular activities. So she became a varsity cheerleader, and you know, because of her athletic ability and her small stature, she became
their the team's flyer. So she was pretty talented. But after high school she kind of spread her wings and then moved down into a little small village just west of Banton called Johnson City, and she met a man and she entered into a relationship with him, and they had two children together, two girls named Javen and Amirah.
But unfortunately that relationship kind of was kind of short lived when she became the victim of some domestic violence by the father, and so she severed her relationship with him, and then she entered into a new relationship with another man and they had two more children, little boy named Lyric and a little girl named Zoe. So now she had four small children in as many years, all under
the age of five. And unfortunately, the second relationship deteriorated as well with more incidents of domestic violence, and for a short period of time she lost her children and Child Protective Services took them away, but she severed her relationship with that man and actually moved out of state for a while, and eventually things eased up with Child
Protective Services. They gave her kids back and she moved back to Binghamton and she found a small little apartment on Fayette Street in the city of Binghamton, and she had a job working nights at the local high school doing maintenance work, and she worked the late shift, you know, from eleven pm till seven am, and fast forwarding just a little bit to the This went on for about six or eight weeks, and shortly after she moved back to bingham and she met a man by the name
of Charles Pratt, which is commonly known as Chucky, and they got together, and not long after that their relationship turned intimate and they weren't living together, but they were seeing each other regularly, and he seemed to be have a good relationship with their children, so she felt comfortable
asking him to babysit while she was at work. So that went on for about six or eight weeks, but unfortunately, on December thirtieth, tragedy struck and her two year old son, Lyric, was discovered in the morning on December thirtieth, twenty ten, to be severely beaten and he was taken to the hospital and pronounced dead.
Let's talk about let's talk about Chucky Charles Pratt as you do. He's twenty seven years old at that time. Yeah, it was just a little bit about the information, especially his recent release from prison.
Yeah, he was. He'd been convicted of a drug charge down in New York City and in the Bronx area, possession of controlled substance, and he was sentenced to state prison. He went to state prison. He was sentenced for two to six years. He went to state prison and actually got released on parole early, but he violated his parole and they sent him back to prison to serve out his remaining sentence. He was eventually released, I think in early two thousand and ten, and he ended up moving
up to Binghamton for whatever reason. And I found a little apartment not far from where Veronica Taft was living, and that and then she got introduced to him through a friend. You know, he'd assured her that his drug dealing days were over, but when in fact they were not. He was still actively involved in buying, selling, and using drugs. So that that's kind of Chucky's history in a nutshell.
Let's talk about December thirtieth. You talked about the conditions that he was the overnight babysitter. She had somebody else, uh Raymond Ramos, I've Rodriguez, I believe, but anyway, somebody else that was taking care of the children if she needed be needed someone to during the day. But he was the overnight babysitter. They had been going out for a little while, their intimate and she went to work. As customary, she would call him in during the night.
Just tell us what happened during the night she was at work. What was the phone call. There was a couple of phone calls. What happens with this nine one one call. Tell us the events that happened from earlier in the evening previous before she's getting ready to work, Give us some of the circumstances that led to this, and then tell us about the nine one one call.
Yeah, sure, So back on the day before, on December twenty ninth, she had a daytime babysitter there from like noon until about five o'clock, you know, watching the four kids. And during that time he had fed the kids their lunch, and then later just before he left, around five o'clock, he'd set him again just peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And then so Veronica comes home and she's there with the kids, and she's there until she goes to work. And then she has to be to work at eleven.
So her one of her co workers picks her up and drives her there. But just before she goes to work, Chucky comes over to babysit for the night. So he came over about ten fifteen or ten thirty, and his stepbrother Jammel was with him. And so when he gets there, you know, Vraka is getting ready for work. Her son, Lyric, you know, before Chucky got there, her son had been in the bedroom with his sisters watching a movie. They
were all ready for bed. Uh but it was it was it was normal for them to stay up late, to kind of stay on their mom's schedule. And uh so before Chucky gets there, Lyric wandered into her his mom's room while she was getting ready for work, and he needed his diaper change, so she did that. Then he wandered back to the bedroom and then Chucky shows up and her ride gets there, uh about quarter two eleven, so uh, she's she pops her head into the kids room,
says a quick goodbye, and and off she goes. Uh. But before leaving, she uh, she reminded Chucky to to feed the kids, you know, they she'd she'd duh, kind of preheated the oven for some French fries and some tater tots, maybe some some mac and cheese, I believe. And uh, in fact, she she had prehe heated the oven to do that. And then she but her ride
got there, so she had to take off. Uh. So she goes to work, gets to work on time, and about eleven twenty or so, she calls Chucky on his cell phone from work from her work phone and to make sure that he'd fed the kids and they were all fine, and he said they were and they'd all eaten. So she continues working and he stays there babysitting and puts the kids to bed. Then around twelve thirty one o'clock. She calls back and he assures her that the kids
are all fine. But the reason she was calling back she was considering coming back home to pick up a movie and if there was time to watch the movie at work with her co workers, she would do that, but as it turned out, they were too busy. They had a lot of work to do, so she never did that, so she continued. He was on working the rest of the night. Well, Chucky's there with the kids.
She gets off work at seven o'clock and her coworker that usually drives her home had another commitment, so he couldn't take her home, so she had to walk, and it's about a fifteen minute walk, so she did that, gets home about seven point fifteen. Chucky meets her at the door, and ordinarily she would go and check on her kids, but he assured her that kids were fine and she should just you know, she was real tired. He says, Dad, just you need to rest, you know,
go down, get some sleep. So she just kind of did that. She went into her room and got undressed, got in bed, and then he joined her and they fell asleep. And then around ten thirty, uh, they're they're waking up and she she hears the girls in the in the other room, and and she's asking him, you know, why haven't you gone in to get him up, you know,
get breakfast around. So he, uh, he gets up, goes in and and he comes back and tells her that Lyric is blue and he's not breathing and he's cold, and she she just kind of starts flipping out, what do you mean, you know? And so he runs back and picks up Lyric, brings him to her, and he's purple colored and not breathing. She she's in a panic, you know, slapping him on the back, trying to wake him up. And uh. Uh and she said, she says to him, you know, call nine one one, and he
picks up the phone to do that. She just snatches it away and then makes the call herself. It's hysterically. He can hardly understand what she's saying.
Uh.
And then she runs out into the street and down the stairs and out into the street. You know, Uh, call the police. Does anybody know CPR? You know, she just in a panic and hysteria. And a neighbor runs across the street and up runs up the stairs with her and uh and together they start doing CPR, uh, waiting for the h the ambulance to get there. And the ambulance finally gets there, the EMTs come up and they take over the life saving efforts, and it was
it was a pretty dire situation. So the lead empt e MT just grabbed him into his arms, rushed them downstairs into the ambulance, and off they went. Uh, and Veronica jumped in the ambulance with them and they're off.
What's happened, David? What happens before this? There's a situation where of course she runs out into the street asking for CPR. You mentioned that that neighbor comes and and uh he has asked who he is, and he just pushes uh Chucky aside and goes and performs the CPR. But there is a point when Chucky becomes enraged and what does he do and what does what does she witness?
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh So when the when the neighbors shows up there, you know, when he gets to the top of the stairs, Chucky's right there, he's asking who he is. So the neighbor said, yeah, I just I just pushed him adel away and and went to uh, you know, to try to do what I could for Lyric. And uh and and Veronica was right there and and and somebody, I believe the neighbor's wife was right there too, and she's she overhears uh Veronica says something to Chucky like,
you know, get out of my way, you know. And uh. But then uh, right around that same time, Uh, Veronica witness says, Chucky uh punched the wall of the living room right right next to the right next to her betterm wall with both vests and and it left a big gaping hole in the in the wall. Pieces of plaster fallen on the floor. And you know, later he claimed that he did that because he was frustrated over
what was happening uh to Lyric. Uh. And then he in that process, uh, he had he had scraped off the skin off his knuckles and his knuckles were bleeding and uh and that was noticed by the police when they uh uh brought him into the interrogation room a little bit later.
What do e mts notice right away at arrival with the two and a half year roll.
Yeah, one of one of the first things they noticed. Of course, he wasn't breathing, but they also noticed that his that his abdomen was was blown coded, really puffed out, and uh. Interestingly he uh the lyric was, rather than being in pajamas, he was in street clothes. He was wearing these little blue jeans and uh and a hooded sweatshirt on top of a red longsleeve T shirt. And uh.
But the EMTs had noticed the uh, the bloating of the abnom and how tight it was, so they they removed his blue jeans to ease the pressure, just left them there on the floor, and then and then uh, you know, took over the uh, the life saving efforts on him, and uh, like I explained, they went down to the ambulance. But they'd also noticed that he had marks all over his face and his neck and his head,
and uh, so that that was obviously a concern. And they also noticed that the woman there, Ronica, was on her knees weeping hysterically.
Also, you talked about just the what they noticed in terms of rigor mortis, and you explain the extent of rigor mortis that would be expected around this time. So can you explain a little bit about rigor mortis and what those EMTs noticed and noted.
Yeah, Actually, the EMTs really hadn't noticed the riga mortars. That was, the doctors at the hospital once they got there, started to notice the early onset of rigamortis. And like I explained in the book, and a rigamortis usually starts to appear within about two to four hours after death and then becomes maximoal within six to twelve hours. By the time by the time Lyric got to the hospital,
it was around eleven fifteen am. And one of the first things they did, you know, they they removed his clothing and replaced them with warm compacts and blankets, and they pumped the warm saline solution into his stomach. But they also took his temperature a rectal temperature, and his temperature had plunged like twelve and a half degrees, so it was it was critically low, was about eighty six
degrees fahrenheit. So he was cold. But the EMTs that had noticed UH when they were there, that that his UH extremities were cold, but his core seemed to be warm, right, So so all of those things were noted. But but during his treatment at the emergency room, you know, he was he was treated by er doctors for the better
part of an hour before he was pronounced dead. But during that time, in that eleven thirty eleven fifty timeframe, they'd noticed the early onset of rigamortis and his extremities and in his jaw, and that was documented in the records. So it was kind of a clear indication that his death had occurred not long you know, not that long ago. So that was kind of an important part in determining, you know, the time of death.
So to determine the time of death, of course, there needs to be an autopsy. But you write that what's interesting and maybe not so typical, is that this woman has just been informed about her son. She doesn't even know the status as of yet in terms of that one hour, but you say, within thirty minutes of being at that Hope hospital, she's taken to ben Hampton Police department for an interview, isn't she.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, she'd just been told that her son was dad. You know, she she was you know, you know, praying that he was he was still alive because they were taking so much time, you know, working on him. But then she was finally notified that he was dead, and you know, less than thirty minutes later, she's sitting in an interrogation room waiting to be interviewed.
Let's talk about also Chucky and his interview with the police. But tell us, unlike Veronica, she he does not does he not go to the hospital? Tell us about this the circumstances in which he is still at the apartment when she isn't.
Yeah, so when at first happened after shortly after the e mts arrived, the Binghamton police officers started arriving as well, and uh so, Veronica was in the ambulance with her son and her Right after she left, her mother shows up because she had called her mother telling her that something was wrong with Lyric and to get right over there. So her mother, who worked at another hospital nearby, and you know, rushed over there. But by the time she
got there, Veronica was gone. But Chucky was standing there on the street when she got there, so they spoke briefly. But then shortly after that, the police took Chucky, uh too, directly to the police station. So he was he was at the police station about an hour before Veronica arrived,
you know, after learning about the to her son. So so he was already placed in an interview room and and police were scrambling trying to make sense of everything, and uh so he was waiting to be interviewed, and for whatever reason, they let him have his cell phone in the interrogation room, which is kind of a not
kind of it's it's a violation of their rules. But so while he's in there waiting to be interviewed, he's on the phone with his stepbrother and his friend Max, and he's telling them all kinds of stuff and and he's, uh, he's just kind of going nuts. You know, he lawyers up right away. He's practically bouncing off the walls. And in my opinion, he was he was on drugs and uh, very impatient. Uh you know that he the police couldn't work fast enough for him, and like I said, he
lawyered up real quick. In fact, he was seeking an attorney while he was still at the scene over at Fayette Street. He called his stepbrother and asked him to find a number of an attorney he could call. And then by the time he gets to the police station, you know, his brother finally calls him back. So he answers and gets the information. He tries to call an attorney and there's no answer and he's trying to find
another one. So he quickly let the police know that he wanted an attorney, so they were kind of limited as to what they could do as far as an interview with him.
Now, meanwhile, the same circumstances, not the same circumstances, but there's you have Veronica being able to be cooperative with police and willing to answer questions and didn't ask for an attorney. So in that regard, how does her interview go? What is the tone of that interview? And interestingly you write about that when the investigators leave the room, she does speak out loud. What is sort of the general tone and some of the content of what she speaks out loud when they're gone.
Yeah, that was that was pretty revealing of of how traumatized she was upon learning of the death of her son. You know, the police officers were actually treating her pretty well, but there certainly wasn't much compassion to what she was going through. But anyway, you know, they brought her into the room and told her they'd be with her in a little bit, and so, you know, the camera's rolling and you can hear her, you know, talking to herself out loud. You know, Uh, you know what happened to
my baby? I love my baby, you know, just just on and on you God, take care of my baby. It just went on and on and on, you know, and she was kind of rock back and forth unconsciously. Uh, she probably doesn't even remember doing that.
Uh.
It was just it was just kind of horrible to watch and listen to what she was saying. And I tried to portray that as best I could in the in the story, but it's not quite the same as
as watching it. But yeah, she just went on and on and on before they finally came back in and you know, sat down and talked with her and went through the whole story of how she'd gone to work and the whole story I just explained earlier about Chucky being there babysitting and when he came over and when she left, and she went through that whole scenario, uh, you know, trying to recall from the best of her memory. Uh,
you know, what had happened. And she was there for probably a good four hours before they you know, finally finished there for that day. And then so she walked out of the room. You know, child Protective Services was there obviously they were called in because of the surviving children that needed to be cared for, and that's why they they brought in her mom, Ronica's mom, in so that she could take custody of the children, at least temporarily.
So anyway, that's that was kind of gist of her first interview.
Right, let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a second for these messages.
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Now? He talked about that first interview, but they're anxious to talk to her again in regards to her boyfriend Chucky and his potential involvement, especially considering all of the information that they have so far. What are the questions regarding Chucky to her.
Yeah, yeah, they're they're they're asking her questions about Chucky. You know, if she knew anything about his criminal history, and she did, and uh, what else.
One of the things guilt? Does she they mentioned anything regarding his potential guilt and what does she say in terms of that potential.
Yeah, she said he hadn't mentioned it to her yet, but she told the investigator right near the end of her interview that that was her intention to once she got out of there, she was going to go back to him and see if she could learn something from him that she could bring back and share with them. So,
you know, she wasn't initially. She she didn't want to believe that Chucky had anything to do with this because he'd always treated her and the kids very well, So she was kind of in denial that anything could have happened. So she was kind of under the belief that it was some type of accident or something. But she didn't know what happened and was basically trying to defend Chucky initially because she didn't know how severe the beating was,
at least not at that point. So she had told the investigators that she was going to because he'd already been released before the end of her interview, so she said she was going to, you know, connect with him and see what she could find out and let him know.
With the interview that they have, which is is not very long. You talk about Anthony Dials, and you talk about Sergeant Tom Egleton conducting the interview and speaking to him. What is some of the again not typical behavior that this chucky exhibits when they're not in the room, very much like Veronica, but also when what does what are his concerns and what are some of the allegations that he makes to these police officers.
Yeah, he's he's kind of saying repeatedly, you know that, you know, they're looking at me like I'm a suspect, Like I'm a freaking killer. You know. He's telling everybody he's talking to that, including Veronica. He finally got a hold of Veronica at the hospital and he's telling her the same thing. Yeah, they're looking at me like a suspect.
I'm like, I'm the killer. I'm about to be arrested, you know, And I've never been through this stuff before, and just all kinds of bizarre things that, you know, and and he's saying some of these things, even before it's been announced that Lyric is dead.
Yeah, what about the he he knows they know about the wall, the hole in the wall. So they ask him about the wall and the bleeding knuckles. What does he have to say, And they are aware of some of these other things that are that that there was seen at that by doctors at the hospital. Do they yeah, question them about those specific things. And what's the follow up to those questions?
Yeah, one of the things they they were they were asking him about. Of course, they asked him if he knew, you know, knew what had happened, and he says no, and he denied ever seeing Lyric that night at all. He said he he did feed the kids and and he he said he and he cleaned up four empty plates. But he said he never saw, never saw Lyric. I'm trying to think of everything else, he said, let's see during a blank here.
Well, he talked about you know, his testimony was a little bit different in the interview when he talked about, uh, the order of some things about the feeding. He had mentioned that he had fed them late night. Veronica had forgotten that detail, Yeah, brought in the book there there's a lot of details that, as you say, she certainly suffered from trauma, so some of minor details were inconsistent and it was discrepancies. Yeah, there were to him when
they spoke to him. They also asked him things like would you have changed the diaper? Because again they had some information about that diaper. Now, so tell us what his responses are to the crucial questions of in terms of did he feed them, did he see them? Were? What was he who changed the diaper? Last, would he change the diaper? Those are the kinds of things that they were speaking to him about, and it looked like they were putting him in a corner regarding those comments.
Yeah, I mean yeah, they did ask him, you know, who would change a diaper? You know, would you ever change the diaper? Or who would change diapers? And he said he said on me once in a while, but usually it was Saveronica or her oldest daughter Raven. And as far as feeding the kids, yeah, he did say that he uh, he fed all of the kids. Uh, after she left for work, and he and and he said when he when he when he came out of the game room after they were done eating, there was
four uh, empty plates there. Uh, and he said he was cleaning up in the kitchen. But he denied ever seeing ever seeing Lyric or seeing him eating at the table with his sisters, which which didn't make a which didn't make a lot of sense. But the other thing they questioned him about was the uh when they saw his bloody knuckles.
Uh.
That was right right right near the end of his interview. In fact, Uh he had asked for a cigarette and the sergeant Eggleston say, I'll see what I can do. So he comes back later and he's handing him his cigarette. See, Chucky reaches up for it, and that's when Sergeant Eggleston saw the injuries on his knuckles, and he says to him, oh, what happened there? So he told him, he said, I punched the wall. I was frustrated about what happened to Lyric. And then he then he holds up his other hand
and and and shows them the same thing. Yeah, oh, and this one too, so so the the knuckles on both hands were were bloody, and he uh uh said that he was doing it out of frustration for what had happened to Lyric, and and that and that supported what what Veronica had told them that she had seen him punched the wall a couple of times with each fist.
But but the bizarre thing, Uh, they'd also known from the from one of their investigators who was at the hospital taking pictures of Lyrics injuries, that he had these gouge marks in his neck that were crescent shaped and appeared to be made by fingernails. Right, And you know the bizarre thing for myself, you know, being a former crime scene investigator, you know, they didn't take any pictures,
they didn't take any DNA, didn't take any fingernail scrapings. Yes, and I just felt that was that was pretty irresponsible.
You talk about the evidence that the police gathered and put into evidence. We talked about the the pants that they had to take off at the at emergency because his stomach was distended. Yeah, but there was different evidence or there was evidence in by the by the Birmingham Police Department with a diaper. What was it about that diaper that should have been examined, should have been tested and wasn't.
Yeah, that was that was a big thing.
Uh.
Like I said earlier, when when Lyric went to the hospital, he was wearing his pants had been removed, so he was just wearing that diaper and that hoodie with a white red shirt underneath. So each of those items were secured by an officer who was there, and they were each placed in his separate evidence bags and tagged accordingly. So everything was done properly, and they were brought back
to the station putting the evidence locker. But it wasn't until January seventh, So now we're talking about a week later that another evidence technician takes those items out of the evidence locker to examine them, and she, you know, she takes them out one by one and takes pictures of them and looks them over. She didn't do anything much with the sweatshirt or the T shirt, but the
diaper was kind of a different story. It was a disposable diaper, and as she's looking at it, what really jumped out was the fact that there was five specs of blood on the outside of the diaper, not the inside, the outside, and uh, she carefully photographed the diaper and and she even took these little red sticky arrows and to help point to where what what she was showing, and some close ups and and one of them, one of those spots was was a a rather large spot
which looked like it was right on one of the closing tabs of the diaper that looked just like a bloody thumbprint. And uh that that jumped out at me right away when I saw that. And uh so when I when I when I first saw that, I said, Okay, uh you know, where's the where's the lab results? You know, where's the DNA? But there wasn't any They they never tested it, and that that just kind of blew me away.
I said, how can you not do that? Uh, you know Bronica was in the interview room that morning, she wasn't and Chuck he was and uh uh Lyric Lyric wouldn't have changed his own diaper, and uh, it just it just kind of blew me away that that it was never tested and it got even worse dan it was about five months later, uh, well before she was arrested. H the disc attorney uh uh got a hold of the Binghamton police. He wanted to look at that diaper himself. So he goes over there. They pull it out of
evidence and they show it to him. He looks it over for about eight minutes, according to the log, and uh so when I when I found out they were doing that. Okay, now they didn't test it, but poor but he's gonna have it tested. Well, he didn't either. They just put it back in the bag and back in evidence, and uh, it just kind of blew me away. I said, how can you not do that?
Yeah, let's talk about who they start speaking to. Well, they have to speak to they should speak to the stepbrother, Jammel, and also anybody else that he called from custody. But they asked Jammel about the night before because he's there before Veronica leaves for work with a friend. What does he say regarding the clothing that Lyric is wearing that night?
When they interviewed Jammel, Yeah, he had gone over there with Chucky that night. He didn't mention what Lyric was wearing that night, but he'd been there earlier in the day, like in the morning with with Chucky and they had breakfast or something. He noticed that that Lyric was and the other kids were all in their pajamas and said, Lyric was in a it was wearing the SpongeBob pajamas.
Uh.
But but when when he went over there that night with Chucky, he didn't mention what what the kids were wearing. I mean, he saw the girls, but he he he kind of backed up his brother and saying he didn't he never saw a Lyric, but but he did say that his his brother Chucky was in his sleep clothes. Uh. So that that's pretty much what what what Jamel had
to say about about his his being there. You know that he did he kind of backed up his brother that he didn't see Lyric, but did see the other girls and uh and that Chucky was in his uh his sleep close. He was, he was tired, he changed into his sleep clothes and it was talking about going to bed as soon as the kids were were in bed.
Let's talk about this in terms of with the autopsy with doctor terzi In. He initially says, and from his calculations, he puts the time of death at three am to four am. And of course Veronica's at work, and they checked that out to make sure she didn't leave work whatsoever, and she didn't. Now they can't they don't have, as you right, they don't have a really good opportunity to question Chucky about anything regarding this. And they have a
willing person that's willing to answer questions in three interviews. Yea, so how does this person named Jesse Nole factor into this story?
Yeah, Jesse Nole, you know. His name came up fairly early on. During one of Veronica's interviews, she mentioned that she'd been in a brief relationship with this Jesse Knowle, but the police never pursued that initially. It wasn't until June of twenty eleven, six months into this and when Noel got arrested for domestic violence and contempt at court,
he had to rather link the arrest history. He'd been arrested several times due to a domestic violence incidents with the woman he had children with, and so in June he gets arrested again and the police arrest him and they take him back to the station and he sits down for an interview with one of the investigators. But they don't talk about what he's just been arrested for.
They want to know what he can tell them about Veronica Taft, and so he proceeds to tell them that she he he was in a relationship with Veronica, and she told him what happened to Lyric and and that that Chucky had been threatening her after this happened, and so he tells the police that after she learned about Chucky threatening Veronica, him and two of his friends went over to see Chucky with the intent of beating him up, but instead, when they got there, he confronted Chucky about
what happened. Wanted to know why he he was beating up Veronica and and you know, whatever happened to the little lyric And then he he claims that that Chucky at that time, Chucky admitted to him that he had killed the little boy because he was he was he was frustrated, he was angry with Veronica because she was cheating on him and she was a crack smoking horror and uh and and that's why he uh uh uh killed the baby and then put him back in bed.
So he tells, he tells the police that probably three or four times.
Uh.
So they lock him up. They lock up Jesse Knowle, and then then we fast forward, uh about about two weeks later, he's in the jail. They so the disc attorney and then three and three or four investigators go up to the jail. Jesse Knowle's there with his attorney and now now the camera's rolling and so they they have him sign what they call a debriefing agreement, and he agrees to the conditions that he signs it. And so then they said, okay, Jesse, tell us again what happened.
I've already got a pretty good idea of what you're gonna say, but tell us again. So he lays out the same story and then and then all of a sudden they start leaning on him and telling him they don't believe that he's being truthful and and none of his story makes any sense. And I would agree, but any but anyway, so Jesse Noel knew that, uh, you know, he was obviously looking for a deal for himself and uh, but when they started confronting him with his lies, he
knew that his deal was probably out the window. But then then but then one of the investigators said, look, Jesse, we're we're willing to give you a clean slate here, and uh. And then one one of the other investigators made the made the suggestion, was it her that made the admission? Was it her that told you that? And of course they had already told him that Veronica was on the verge of being arrested anyway, So so that
was his cute to throw her under the bus. So he changes his story and and he said, no, yeah, it was it was Veronica who admitted to killing her son. And then he so he describes the same the same scenario, only he puts Veronica in place of Chucky, and that's what they went with. They used his testimony at the trial later.
So, so tell us, now they have this new they have this new confession from this witness. They think they're prepared. You think it's uh, you know, outrageous what they are doing, given the information that they have. And you can't see any really honorable reason for doing this. It just seems a practical. They need a prosecution, they need somebody to pin this on, and it seems to be Veronica. So tell us about the the Lukia Lucia's prosecution and this arrest and trial.
Yeah, well, you know, first it went to you know, first they arrested her and then a week later they indicted her with lengthy grand jury testimony, and then in August of twenty twelve she went on trial. And Peter de Lucia was the senior assistant disc attorney who prosecuted her, and he was the same one that I mentioned earlier about not examining the diaper, and so he calls in all of his witnesses and probably one of the I don't know if I should use the word bizarre. I
guess that's appropriate. Yeah, he calls in some of these witnesses who had no information at all about what happened to Lyric, right, but they had provided information uh long before through child protective services that Veronica was uh uh an unfit, abusive mother to all of her children, and they and they and they described numerous incidents, none of
which were ever substantiated. And uh so they very DeLucia very successfully uh portrayed Veronica as this monster, you know, then getting the jury to to really hate her, and
and he was very successful at doing that. And then uh th the first uh material witness was the doctor, doctor Terzian, and of course he he went on to describe Lyrics uh injuries and in what he discovered during the autopsy and uh and then uh then they put the pictures of Lyrics injuries, uh his little thirty pound body up on the big screen and uh it was pretty brutal, you know, and you could you could look
at the eyes of the juror. And then they glanced at the They were appalled, obviously, and anybody would be. And then they glance over at Roka, and of course I noticed those things, and from that point on it was it was over. And that was early in the trial. But from that point on, I think she was They weren't going to let her out of there.
How did they adjust? How did they try to explain the adjustment from three to four am to the new theory that she had killed Lyric before she left for work and maybe from nine pm to eleven pm and sometime in that area. How did how do they answer to that or how do they explain that?
Well, he didn't explain it very well, but anyway, they what they did was they they got the doctor to testify that it was within the bounds of possibility or with in the realm of possibility that could have been
uh uh. There could have been a fifty error rate in the in the time of death, which would mean that uh, Lyric was killed around nine pm with dinner around eight pm, because because there were when they did the when he did the autopsy, they found some stomach contents that still remained in his stomach, and they were they were saved and frozen for further study. But then you know, in the trial, he he you know, obviously they have to they have to find a way to
push back the time of death. It was it was a huge hurdle for them, and and they didn't do a very good job. And and the doctor kept talking about, uh, compounding factors that could slow down the the cooling rate of a body after it dies, after it's dead, But it just it just didn't make any sense that would be that much different, especially when you're talking about a two year old when when the formula he was using was based on that of an average adult, which is
like one hundred and fifty five pounds. Lyric weighed thirty three pounds, so if anything, the cooling rate would have been much faster. And and on top of that, if you go back to nine pm as the time of assault or the time of death, that would mean thirteen hours or more between the time he was killed in the time he had his body temperature taken in the hospital the next morning. And if that's the case, you know, he wouldn't have been he would not have been an
early rigor. He would have been in advanced, if not permanent rigor.
Right They also big contention is the usker if she was the person that changed his diaper lyrics diaper before she went to work, and she said she she did. Now, given that evidence of the blood evidence on and potential fingerprints on the outside of the diaper, and the doctor had testified that there was no external injuries, Chucky tried to say that his knuckles were bloody from the wall, but that must have been happened after because Veronica had
witnessed that. So how do they deal with that at this trial?
Yeah, well they they uh they described the bloody knuckles as a as a red herring. Uh yeah, that's that's that's the words he used. Uh that you know that they claimed that the diaper, the bloody diaper, had no evidentiary value. Uh what was found on that diaper could
have come from anyone in the household. It was it was pretty pretty bizarre to listen to that, Uh, that testimony coming from you know, experts, you know who who who's supposed to know what they're talking about, and uh, it was it was really disturbing to uh to listen to that.
Knowing it was fault You talk about the uh that the CPS, uh child Protection Service evidence. I've put that in quotation marks from these people that were were malicious in their Yeah, the content of their of the things that they said. There was no real evidence to back up anything to corroborate any of these these stories. But you said that that was really some of the most damning evidence again that was brought in and likely influenced
the jury. With the jury, they only deliberated about four hours. Ye in your experience, what did you think might have happened with that short turnaround in terms of deliberation.
Well, we were, obviously we're pretty optimistic that it would be a not guilty verdict, you know, if they were paying attention at all. So we were really kind of blown away when they when they come back with a with a guilty verdict. You know, it just just didn't make any sense, you know that. But like I said, you know, once they saw those pictures and the she's the one sitting at the defense table, you know, I think it was it was all over.
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Now, of course, he is devastated. David Butler is devastated. You are disappointed and frustrated. So what is the next step.
Well, the next step, obviously, is the first thing Dave Butler did was to file a intent to appeal what you did. But you know that that process is just the first step. Now it has to go to another attorney, has to be assigned to write the appeal brief. And that's just a very lengthy process. It takes months, if not years, and it did. It took a very long time.
Finally an a pellet or a appealed attorney was assigned and uh he had to wait for all the transcripts to come in and then review everything and and pick out the uh issues that needed to be addressed in the appeal, and so that took a long time. But I think he did a pretty good job with it.
Uh, let's talk about let's talk about those issues. But meanwhile, Veronica's in prison labeled a baby killer. Yeah, what's her stay? Like David Butler stays in contact? I think you do at some point. But tell us about just a little bit about what you know about her stay in prison.
Yeah, it was you know when I when I interviewed here for the for the book, uh, you know, she she talked for a while about life in prison, and it was pretty brutal. Uh you know, just you know, being called baby killer and compared to uh uh that casey Anthony uh uh who was accused of killing her
young daughter. And and then just the the behavior that's going on, you know, with the with the CEOs and other inmates, you know, urinating in the smoking and urinating in the showers, and you know, the cockroaches everywhere and inmates, uh you know, women raping women, and you know the CEO's treating you like crap. Just you know, just on and on and on. So I had to be pretty brutal. So she shared some of that with them. It's probably worse than what she just cried. But I can't even imagine.
It must have been horrible.
What about contact with their children? How difficult was that? Yeah?
Very little? And I corresponded with her periodically and just maybe a Christmas card or a note to give her an update on the appeal process or something. But uh, but she'd always write right back. I got a few different letters from her, usually very lengthy ones, you know, And and in one of them she said that she did get a chance to talk to her kids like once a month, she said, the you know, they they
missed her crazy, like she did them. And uh. And then later she asked me if I could dig out some of the pictures we had of her children in our case file, and so I did that and sent those to her and made her cry. So it had to be hard. And then another hard thing for her was, you know, her while she was in prison or her grandma died and she could and couldn't go to the funeral, and that, she said, that was that was probably one
of the hardest things. She said. She she had a lot of problems trying to deal with that for a long time.
You say, the seppellate process takes a long time, and of course it us and there was the issues that were most important, and you felt and that for the most part that you agreed with those. What were the issues that they brought forth in the appellate.
Yeah, well, probably the uh there were several issues.
Uh.
The main issue was that and and and they agreed was that the verdict was against the way to the evidence and uh and and they put that almost right in the very beginning of their their decision. But then they went on to kind of explain why, and uh they really uh kind of attacked the prosecution and the
police for the methods and the evidence they used. And they they kind of tore apart the pathologists testimony that he was offering uh opinions based on unsubstantiated uh uh information and he was offering an opinion based on possibilities and assumptions rather than any any direct evidence. So uh and then they then they tore apart the uh the testimony of Jesse Knowle and how he had admitted uh that telling the police uh three or four times that
Chucky was the one who admitted this. And then and and then they uh they kind of really nailed it near the end when they said that, Uh. Moreover, the paramore Chucky was granted immunity uh to testify uh against Fronica.
And you call that a transactional immunity, correct, A blanket immunity.
Yeah, blanket immunity. It's just as if unless you waive your immunity. Uh, it's granted automatically, at least in New York State. So any any any prosecution that whoever, whoever gets immunity can never be charged with anything related uh to that testimony.
Is that immunity unique to New York State?
I don't think so. I'm not a lawyer, but in my understanding is it's pretty pretty consistent uh everywhere that there might be some exceptions, but to the to the best of my knowledge, it's, uh, you know, once once you're once somebody is granted immunity, Uh, they can't be charged with with any matter related to their testimony.
Right now, you talk about the the decision itself, the appellate decision, you say that basically said that this was a verdict was weighed against the evidence. So yeah, there is many options or a few options for the courts to proceed. What are a couple of the options that could have happened, and then tell us what does happen.
I'm not quite sure what you mean.
Well, they could could chance, they could choose to retry.
No, no, they, no, they can't. Uh that was my that was my original understanding when when when Dave Butler first called me and told me of the decision, I said to him, I said, but that doesn't that mean we have to go back to trial. He said no, he says, it says right here, the verdict was against the way to the evidence, it's over. So so no, they they they threw it out. So that means they can't retry her, and.
And they and that's just not again in your experience, that's not typical, is it.
No, No, it's not typical. I've had a number of a number of murder cases that I've worked on for the defense that for one reason or another got reversed on appeal, but they came back for a retrial. But I've never in my career had one come back like this where they just threw it out entirely.
You right, though, that Veronica isn't aware of everything that's going on, She's aware of something on her behalf. But at that time that this decision comes, you're not sure if she even knows. So what happens with her after this decision is she let out immediately? Just tell us the circumstances. They're fascinating, now, you know.
Yeah, when I first heard about it, it came in on December one of twenty sixteen, so you know, that's how long she was in prison. So my first thought was, you know, you know, does Veronica know this? You know? And uh uh, so we didn't know whether whether she'd learned about it or not. Uh, but we found out later that she did hear about it from a a counselor there at the prison who had who had heard
of the decision and in formed Veronica. And uh, of course she she was thinking, like we were, that it would mean another trial. But when when she found out that no, it was the decision that was set in her free uh, you know, she was pretty elated and uh but but but she sat there in prison for another week almost before they finally let her go. But it was only due to the effort of a local family court attorney that heard about the decision and stepped
up to uh to kind of expedite that process. And uh so she was finally let out on the December seventh, and uh, you know, got on the bus and came back home.
And in terms of the custody of her children, she didn't get her children back right away. But what was there, what was their efforts in terms to get them back? Was she successful?
Yeah? Yeah, it was an uphill battle. She was back in family court several times. It took a year to get her two youngest girls back and then in two years to get her oldest daughter, Havin back. She told me and I could have lost her forever. She was placed in a pre adoption home and it was on the verge of being adopted, and it was kind of just in the nick of time. She was able to get her back, but it took two years. So she didn't get she didn't get Havin back until like February of twenty twenty.
Wow. Incredible. So now on behalf of her there was a law firm that filed a suit. She was in prison for five and a half years, yeah, for conviction there. So that's under way, that legal.
Yeah, that's that's pending up. There have been some depositions taken, but the last I heard, they were in the process of getting ready to depose doctor Terzian, and the state's attorney resigned and then they were waiting for a new attorney to be assigned. So that's that's the last I'd heard on that.
So she has gained custody of her children, and you write that her life is not without difficulties, but she is back on her feet, a very strong woman. You write about the interviews with her mother, and you say that obviously she inherited a lot of the same type of characteristics from her mother, very strong, willed and determined, to say the least. Ye, there is an incredible story that you write just at the end of this on
Fayette Street, the address of the apartment. People had moved into that apartment and unbeknownst to them, this murder had happened in one of the rooms, and she had a six year old child tell us about this incredible, other worldly event.
Yeah, this was pretty unique, to say the least. Actually, I learned about this from another reporter. He actually worked for the New York Times. He'd been intrigued about the decision, the Appella Court decision that threw out these charges against Ronica so he contacted David Butler, the attorney, and wanted to meet with us to get some more details. So he came up, we met with him, and then he
set out to conduct his own investigation. Butler just gave him his whole file because you know, there wasn't going to be any retrial. So anyway, he sets out to do his own thing. And during the course of that, he went back to Fayette Street and he goes into the same apartment where Veronica was living, and he met this woman and her husband and her six year old daughter, and they didn't know anything about the murder that had happened there, so they were it was news to them.
But interestingly, the mother of this little the six year old girl, said that her daughter had an imaginary friend that would play in that same back bedroom where where the murder took place, and they'd laugh and giggle and that type of thing. And she even wanted to buy gifts for him at Christmas time, that type of thing. And so the reporter asked him, says, what does she
call him? And the mother didn't know, she'll so she she called to her daughter and and she come over and and she hadn't she'd never heard the name before, so so she had her spell it out on a little blackboard and and then the father, the little girl's father, read it off to the reporter and said the boy's name was Eleric.
Yeah.
So I for for what it's worth, Dan, I don't know. It's just I thought it was compelling enough to share in the story.
Absolutely, it's an incredible, incredible event. I want to thank you so much David M. Beiers for coming on and talking about your latest Immunity for Murder, the Veronica tast story. For those that might want to take a look at your work, do you have a website Please tell us about that website or Facebook page for this.
Yeah, I have both. The website very simple for Davidmbeers dot com and the Facebook same is the same. Just you know, David M. Beers and I have two of them, one a personal one and I have one for the for my books. So you should be able to find it on either one. I'm you can also find it on Independent Author Network.
Right.
Great, Thank you so much, David. This is incredible you coming on and talking about this Immunity for Murder, an incredible case, the Veronica cast story. Thank you so much David M. Beers, you have a great evening. Thank you so much for this interview.
Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks Dan, good night, good night.