IF I CANT HAVE YOU-UPDATE-Rebecca Morris

He said he had no idea what happened to his young wife, and that he and the boys had been camping in the middle of a snowstorm. Over the next three years, bombshell by bombshell, the story would reveal more shocking secrets. Josh's father, Steve, who was sexually obsessed with Susan, would ultimately be convicted of unspeakable perversion. Josh's brother Michael would commit suicide, and in the most stunning event of them all, Josh Powell would murder his two little boys

and kill himself with brutality beyond belief. It will be eleven years December sixth since Susan Cox's Powell disappeared. Her story is still unfolding. A definitive update on the case will air on ABC's twenty on Friday, November sixth. The New York City crew came to Seattle in early March to interview Rebecca, just as the city was locking down

for COVID. The crew was there for the very important court trial involving the Washington State Department of Health and Human Services and the responsibility and the deaths of Charlie and Braden. There are other events happening this week that could postpone the airing of the twenty twenty program November sixth. The book that we're featuring this evening is if I Can't have you update Susan Powell. Her mysterious disappearance and the murder of her children with my special guest, journalist

and author Rebecca Morris. Welcome back to the program, and thank you so much for this interview. Rebecca Morris.

they were in town in Seattle for to cover. So let's let's talk about your experience with ABC's twenty twenty.

I mean, this is a story that just keeps unfolding, and you know, we don't even know if we're you know, if there's an end to it now.

But uh, but you know, twenty twenty has done uh some of the best coverage over the years, and they they wanted to revisit it, and this was, of course, Uh all the planning was you know, before COVID. But I've worked with twenty twenty before on uh Ted Bundy program, uh a year or two ago. So I'm I mean it was Uh it was interesting because they they came

to Seattle. I mean literally must have been the last plane in and out of Seattle before COVID, cause it was uh very early March, and uh, as usual, uh as production crews and networks do, they rented a a space, you know, downtown Seattle, a big loft where you know we could set up. Uh, the city was already dead.

I mean it, you know, we couldn't even find a restaurant to to have a meal at m And uh, you know, they just are really professional to work with, and and they were also obviously interviewing many many other people. I'm I'm I'm sure, I'm just a a tiny part of this, but uh, they always talked to the you know, Susan's parents and attorney in Bremner, and I'm sure people in Utah. And one of the things about you know, both books and television shows is you have to find

something new to say because it's been done before. But I think, you know, this was timed to coincide with the court case. The same producer that came up from twenty twenty had been here the week or two before to attend the jury trial on the wrongful death suit that we're going to talk about, and then that trial was interrupted because of COVID. But now we have a decision in that. So it was just it was just

a kind of odd time. I was scheduled to do other TV programs in the spring, and they everything mostly got postponed. I did. I was interviewed for two programs on other stories where they hired a local crew in Seattle, and you know, we sat in a conference room. Everybody wore a mask. There were just two crew people in me and the producer was on the other end of

a cell phone asking questions or on zoom. So just you know, it was possible to still produce programs during COVID, but you know, crews couldn't travel, and it was just it's it's you know, just one of of course, millions of small things that have been affected by by the pandemic.

Nobody was ever charged. And I've learned a lot the last couple of years about what are literally called no body case cases. A no body case is when there's

no body found, and Susan's ever been found. It often means that prosecutors don't bring charges because the best way of getting a conviction is if you have the evidence, you know, from a body being found, and so with without that, you know, attorneys sometimes you know, have to get creative and uh Ann Bremner, Seattle attorney who's UH done a lot of UH, worked on a lot of UH cases over the years, usually UH pro being bringing charges UH for families that that the prosecutors don't bring

and she UH one of the only things they could try to do to to you know, find justice was to Josh Powell's not around to to be able to to charge him with anything. So they made UH, you know, frankly, what I think is a really uh a very good case against the State of Washington for UH the when when Susan's sons Charlie and Braden we're in we're in protective custody. So as you know, after Susan dissapp hear Josh, you know, very quickly within a week packed up his home.

You'd think he'd stay and looked, sure why, but he didn't. He packed up his house and the kids moved to his father's in uh puell Up, Washington where they grew up. And then you had two states involved in trying to UH keep track of this man and his family because Washington State was still I was UH now now had some responsibilities because the UH children eventually were in custodial care, and while UTAH was still conducting an investigation of UH

Susan's disappearance. While you know, I saw all the records and it was really I don't know if I've ever been shot so shocked as when I read those records about what Charlie and Brayden, the the lives they led that last couple of years of their lives. As as I think we've talked about on this on this program before. Sure they were taken from Josh's custody UH when his father, Steve, who you mentioned, was UH charged with both pornography and voyeurism.

So they were taken from the house. They were uh temporarily placed with their per grandparents, citizens parents, uh as foster parents. So they were under now the protection of the d Department of Health and Human Services in UH Washington State or what's commonly called CPS Child Protected Services. Josh still had a visitation with them twice a week, which was uh lax. Uh. I think it'd be fair

to to call it that. And the the protection they did or didn't get during the last year and a half of their life is is what was it question here? And what was the basis for the wrongful death suit? And uh, if you'd like me to explain the details of what that was, I can go into.

He was just very strange. So he was allowed to have uh one of his visitations every week at the home of the minister who lived across the street from Josh's father, Steve, who you know had taken uh an interest in the family and was trying to help Josh. So visitations were there, and then along the way the state decided that a second visitation during the week Josh

could have at this rental home. Josh should rented a house not far from his father's house, uh empty put you know, a few sticks of furniture in it, and was basically pretending to live there, and and the boys would have one of their visits there, and that's where they died ultimately, because they raced ahead of the the caseworker that day, February twelfth, two thousand twelve, and he

shut the door in her face. But what what I found out when I looked at uh fortunately in time when I was rewriting the book, is that the boys that had physical exams as part of their uh you know, being in protective custody, they had strange rashes on their body, they bodies. They told their grandfather that the that Josh

slipt nude with them. They were obviously in a house, well, they were in a house that uh where their grandfather, Steve Powell, was producing an enormous trove of pornography and voyeurism, and you know, who knows what they were exposed to in that sense. Uh. The boys once they went to live with their grandparents, Chuck found them once they were

you know, taking the baths together. They were four and six years old at the time, and one was trying to drown the other in the bathtimes and Chuck that it was not a game, It was not a game. Something had so damaged those boys between the day their mother disappeared in two thousand and nine and when they died in two thousand twelve, just you know, they had

really been damaged and most likely molested. Living with their father and grandfather, they drew pictures of uh I think it was uh Brandon, who was the youngest, drew a picture of a you know, telling telling a d an adult to stay away from him and not not to mess with him. They also were remembering some things about

the last night, you know, of their mother's life. Uh. Josh had always said, you know, he took the boys camping winter camping is a it's a d real thing in Utah, even if it's you know, below freezing, and it was a blizzard. Uh. And that he left Susan at home, the boy said, And they and they drew pictures that their mother was sleeping in the back of the van and that they left her out, you know,

in the desert. H with the crystals, with the rock The boys were really interested in looking at rocks and things, and so they were remembering more. But they were, you know, physically and emotionally had they acted a a out you know, a lot after their mother died. And you know, they were so fortunate to have the love of of Judy and Chuck Cox for the last couple of years, but they had definitely been harmed. And that was the basis

of the wrongful death suit. And again this is this is one of very few paths that a family can take if criminal changes are never brought against somebody. And so that was the basis of the UH lawsuit. And the fact that you know Chuck Cox, who by his

career was he was a faa F crash investigator. He knew about investigations, he knew about burned bodies, you know, he knew this stuff and was very proactive, and he warned especially uh Utah police, but warned CPS in Washington State for many, many months that Josh was gonna hurt those boys, and nobody believed him. So when they finally brought UH, their first attempt at bringing UH a wrongful death suit was dismissed by a lower court. But finally it was able to proceed. And the what I thought

was really fascinating. I don't know if this happens with other cases, but but Anne Bremner and her team were able to point to how many seconds Charlie and Braden suffered once their father closed that door on the caseworker, and they asked for a certain n you know, dollar amount for every minute that each boy suffered, because we know from evidence of the scene that the first thing, well,

Josh had prepared for this. He'd bought cans of gasoline, he'd given away things, he'd sent you know, text to the emails saying goodbye. He'd emptied his bank account, he had an axe, and he was prepared for when those boys came that Sunday afternoon, Super Bowl Sunday, two thousand twelve, he shut the door on the caseworker. He struck both

boys in the head with an axe. He poured gasoline on them and himself and the house exploded and they could figure out how many you know, I I believe it was seven minutes that those boys suffered before they died, and so the reward amount for the suit was was tied to that. The the jury trial here uh in

Pierce County, Washington was was interrupted by COVID. There was uh some discussion about, gosh, do they just start all over, or did they get a different jury, or you know, do they reach some tentative settlement, But everybody really wanted to continue the trial, so it picked up months later. And I'm sure the video of that is is on YouTube.

You know, everybody's just just the Coxes there and the attorneys and the judge, and everybody's masked, and it's another world to see a trial going on during during COVID, and they had some witnesses, and the jury awarded more than anybody predicted, more than was being asked. They awarded ninety eight million dollars to the family. Now that's been appealed, and uh, even the judge in that case couldn't believe that it was such a big award, and it's been it's been uh cut in in by by two thirds,

so I believe it's thirty eight million now. But basically, the state of Washington has a has a has uh a jury has agreed that those boys could have their lives, could have been saved and weren't. And I think it's such an important message for other states and other courts.

that was this psycho sexual examination. Tell us about this reason for this and what this effect of this evaluation and its result and the court case result and what you believe and Chuck believed was the react was the result of this court decision.

there had been. But the the last minute sort of turn of events that that led to all this is that w at the last minute, you know, during this UH custody hearing, when he and the Coxes were fighting for custody of the boys, the UH Utah investigators had informed the attorneys in Washington State, the state actually arguing for the for the costs, that child pornography had been found on Josh, Josh's computer in Utah that had been there at the time Susan disappeared. And right, there's probably

a lot more on that computer. They've never been able to They've still never been able to, you know, break through all the firewalls and the all the coding and everything. But they'd found some kind of child pornography. And if Washington State had known that, you know, Utah had known that for you know, two or three years, it's just inconceivable they didn't share that information while this was going on.

But they told, yeah, the attorneys this in February twenty twelve, and that you know, some new conditions on Josh, and he was I think he was terribly terribly angry and frustrated by that. He'd gone into court on that on that very day, the feeling very optimistic, telling people you know that he felt really optimistic. He was going to go home with his children that day. And then what he hears is that, no, you know, there's some conditions

you have to meet. And one is because because we know now about your computer, you're going to have to have what's called a psychosexual exam. So that is besides for more in depth, uh, psychological exam. A psychosexual exam is when I suppose there must be a way to give one to a to a a female defendant. I don't know, but with a male defendant there you know,

penile response is measured when they are shown different pornographic images. Right, and he was, you know, very That seemed to be the tipping point, and Chuck Cox told everybody, you know, this is not good. I'm really worried about Josh now. And so within day Josh had begun he'd planned I

don't think he'd planned this before. I think that's very much the thing that got him thinking about, well, the only thing he could do to get even I mean, he he really, you know, hated Susan's parents, hated the Mormon Church, which you know Susan had was still a member of and the Coxes were members of and and he'd grown up in the church, but he had left it. He he just had so much hate in him and he planned this without as far as we know, without

telling anybody. And it meant again, you know, paying some bills, cleaning out his bank account, leaving instructions with a couple of people about you know what needed to be done, taking taking things to a storage area, you know, getting away the kid's toys. If somebody had been watching him, I they might've, but nobody was watching him, and that, you know, it reminds me so much of after Susan disappeared, and he was still in in Utah for a couple

of weeks and then moving to Washington State. They didn't seemed to be watching him or trailing him or you know, uh, I h, there's backtracking a bit, but the the uh A day after Susan disappeared, you know, and they'd taken his van to search, and you know, he went to the Salt Lake City Airport and rented a car and was missing for right, you know, twenty four hours. I mean, they nobody was really keeping cats on him, you know, it, Chuck. Uh,

Chuck told me, you know, a lot of things. One day, I mean he used to when he knew the caseworker had picked up the boys, you know, and taken them to this house that was Josh was running, you know, uh co Uh, Chuck wasn't supposed to be anywhere near it, but he might you know, drive by to kind of that. Everything was, you know, as as should be. But I think it was the psychosexual exam that got you know, really put Josh in a corner. And Chuck told everybody,

you know, naw, this is it. He's really Josh is really cornered. Now, Josh does not behave well when when he's cornered, and he he plotted this, this murder suicide and uh, you know, I don't uh think that he as far as I know, he didn't. He said a couple the texts that could be interpreted as goodbyes to his attorney and to a sister, and that was pretty much.

this surprise. Tell us about this surprise, and before we talk about the actual horrifying day when Griffith Hall goes and delivers the kids, and tell us about that.

The surprise was, you know, she arrived with the boys and as they ran ahead of her, you know how children are, they ran up the sidewalk to the front door of the house and Josh was there with the door open, and he greeted them, and before she could get in, he shut the door in her face. But he she heard him say, Charlie, I've got a surprise for you. And I, you know, does that mean I I'm gonna murder you or uh I you know, h

who knows what he meant. But it's chilling when you know of that, you know it later is just is just chilling. I've got a surprise for you. And one of the the next thing, she she could smell Jasoline, and you know, she had formed a real, a real bond with these these kids and just in those you know, several minutes a couple of times a week where she would drive them and and be present and uh, you know, it's just a just a frendous experience for her.

let me in. Josh has to let me in. She can smell, you know, gasoline, and uh so not natural gas, but the gasoline, and she uh her c her phone is in the car, so uh when he won't open the door and it's locked, she goes to her car, uh,

which is in the driveway, and gets her phone. The first thing she does is call her office, and she's instructed to call nine one one, and at some point she also knows to move her car because if something's gonna happen, So she gets her car out of the driveway, she calls nine one one and uh that call in a transcript of that call is easy to find on

YouTube or anywhere on the internet. It's it's just harrowing because you know, she gets a gentleman who I forget how many years he'd been on a job, but you know, he wasn't new and he you know, she tries to explain what's going on. She's been locked out of this house during a custody visit, and she smells gasoline, and you know, it's hard to read and hear because we think of him, you know, how can you be so stupid? He's asking her what what? What color is your car?

What is your license plate? You know, what are you?

in the background. It goes on for it will seems forever, but it's a I believe it's at least three minutes and Kay and I don't think she's still on the phone with him when the house explodes, but it it, it explodes, uh pretty quickly and uh. He he gave an interview later that course, that was just the worst experience. And he you know, he was following protocol and he said he did know. You know, she was telling him, Elizabeth was telling him, you know, this is Josh Powell.

This is Josh Powell, who's a suspect in his wife's disappearance. This is and he said later he knew who Josh Powell was, but he it just didn't register, you know, with with what she was telling him. And you know, as you can probably tell, I, I mean I have sympathy for people who are were caught in this. I mean, nobody is responsible except for Josh Powell. No, but that's you know, if my if my sympathy shows through, well you know, so be it. I y, you know, I

I think it was terrible, terrible state circumstances. And you know, I uh, I know that Elizabeth I'm not I don't know if she ever went back to work. I don't think she went back to work full time, but m she or her supervisor told me later she no longer takes you know, the hard cases. She had a PhD. And was, you know, the most qualified person you could they'd think of to to do cust you know, to be an I a caseworker on something like this. But you know who who could have thought of of the

terror that Josh planned for that day? So, uh, the house exploded, she she was there, you know, the police and fire units arrived and the her you know, the house uh was uh, you know, burned to the ground pretty much, some of the frame was still there. So I'd been watching this story for a few years, kind of you know, hoping Susan would be found or there'd be some kind of a an ending. Publishers like endings.

You know. The story still doesn't have an ending. But the Uh, I was driving on a a freeway in Seattle when I heard on the radio that the house had exploded and burned, and I thought I was gonna drive off the road. I yeah, And then to realize and then to find out that it was it was planned, it wasn't some accident. So I went. I went to the house the next day, and I started working on

the story. And uh went to see cause you know, you have to go you have to you have to go there, you have to go to the scene of all these things, and and uh and already there were you know, purple ribbons on the fence around the house. Purple was Susan's favorite color. And mm and it was uh just uh, you know, just a terrifying day. And to think that unfortunately, this jury, you know, agreed that with a with a lot of people and with Susan's family.

This could have been prevented. This could have been prevented if people had if the stated paid attention more to Josh and the threat he presented and hit the threat to his children.

It was fascinating the investigation that the police try to endeavor to connect Steve and to connect brother Mike with this. Tell us a little bit about this endeavor to try to do that and what it results with in terms of criminal charges for Steve and what happens to brother Mike.

four hours he had the rental car. Well, they know the rental car that he they know he drove eight hundred miles, So they looked closely at you know, where would he have gone if it was four hundred miles in one direction and the four hundred miles back to leave the car at the airport and in the not until after uh, Josh and the kids were dead did they find out more about both Steve and his brother Mike's you know, where they were, where they were during

that period of time. You know, it's easy to assume that, you know, when we found out so much about Steve and you know what a creepy was and how he when Susan and Josh had you know, he was sexually obsessed with his daughter in law. He you know, I read every page of this. I think it's a twenty thousand page journal that Steve had kept over the years, and it reminds me of what a you know, really naive,

immature juvenile would write. Because he was all about his obsession with Susan, and he wrote that he thought, you know, she divorced Josh and sh and he would marry her and raise the kids. And but you know, he we know, he followed her. Steve followed her around pallup with his camera when she wasn't looking, and you know, liked to take pictures of her and her and her legs and you know, saved her tampons when she was living in

his house, just all kinds of really cepy stuff. So it was easy you know, to think that maybe he had some role in her disappearance, although to me that would be the opposite of Steve's behavior. He was so you know, obsessed with her. I I don't I've never really thought that he would have helped get rid of her.

And in fact, they eventually proved that he, you know, was in Washington State the day she disappeared in Utah, right, some people still challenge that, but but there's absolutely no evidence. And then uh, we found out later in two thousand thirteen that that Michael Josh's brother, who was a graduate student in Minnesota that often lived again. You know, there's the fan, there's Steve Powell's home in pew Alup, Washington, where he's grown kids, you know, except for one daughter,

who you know, escaped to a more normal life. Most of his adult children lived there off and on all the time. And it's it's just kind of a really weird place. But Mike was in usually in either pew all Up or Minnesota. Later, but the an investigator happened to be at a salvage yard in Oregon when the salvage yard you know where abandoned cars are, got a

phone call from somebody in Minnesota. Well, it was Michael Powell wondering if his car was still there that he'd left there a couple of years before, and here's this investigators standing there. I mean, it's really freaky coincidental. And so Utah police now know that Mike Powell had probably helped Josh in some way get rid of Susan and on his way there. So there's a route for the listeners who maybe don't know the western half of the

United States very well. Utah is huge land masks and one of the things they looked at were abandoned mines in Utah. Well, there are ten thousand abandoned mines in Utah, summer boarded up, some aren't. But then there's there's a route, a northern route where you could drive from Salt Lake City too pl Washington on kind of a straight, a straight path, and right this town where the salvad yard

was was on that path. And so then the thinking became, okay, uh, Josh put Susan somewhere on the night that that he took her into boys out in the van. But then a couple of days later he moved her body, and his brother helped him move the body and so she must have been in this re rental car or maybe not. I'm not I don't think they ever looked for DENI

or found DNA in the in the rental car. But right, Uh, when they finally took uh dogs to the salvea jard where Mike's car was, the dogs alerted on his car. They didn't find specifically her DNA, but they did alert to their having been a corpse in the body. And so the police then you tell the police go to visit uh Michael Powell in Minnesota where he's a graduate student, and uh they'd questioned him before, of course, and he's very much his brother's defender. Well by now his his

brother's dead, but he's still is his brother's defender. And and they let him know that they have his car. And almost a year to the date that Josh uh died and killed the kids, Michael Powell jumps off a building in Minnesota and inmid suicide. And so that's you know,

it's clear that he helped. And uh so now they've done you know, they've done some searches along that road that is a different part of Utah and I'm Idaho incidentally than uh where Josh said he'd gone winter camping with the kids, which was more uh southwest uh Utah and where they uh uh did their original searches. So

it's it's really interesting. I found a uh email a memo uh uh about when they went to tell Steve so see s see s. Pow By now was in prison for child pornography or voyeurism, and they they went to tell him, uh first of all, that you know that uh Josh and the boys were dead, and that a year later about his son Michael, and uh his visible response to them, the only reaction they saw was anchor. Yeah, you know, he seemed cranky for a few days, and

that was sort of uh his re his reaction. And so he also had defended Josh, you know, to the very end. And I'm uh one of the uh few people that think that he didn't that Josh. I'm sorry that Steve Powell wasn't really clued in or not that he you know, we know, he he wasn't in Utah to day Susan disappeared. But his son, they knew he had a big mouth, and they knew and they must have known he wrote everything down. I don't think they

ever told him what really happened. I have a hunch that he didn't know where Susan was and that, you know, he didn't really know what his sons had done because I don't think they trusted him.

always responded, well, who needs a recipe for pancakes? And you know, Josh never ever cooked, He never did anything. And he you know, his fight for custody of those boys wasn't uh out of love, it was out of power. He wanted to win. He wanted to win. He wanted to have them them and win and and beat you know, Susan Terrence, the the you know An and win this. But he was He did talk to his father a lot.

And it'd be nice to know or interesting to know more about about I. I just don't think Steve was saying, well, here's how you could get rid of her. But but you know, maybe we'll find out some day. I don't know how. But one of the things I learned doing this book, Dan that I now is a is a part of everything and everything I write, everything I research,

is how important family history is. You know, people like Josh are not you know, they are raised and they're raised by people who are also you know, try troubled. And when I looked at the family history of the Powells, I mean, it was really, uh it was almost inevitable. You'd think inevitable that Josh would be uh dangerously troubled. Steve Powell as a child, uh his I think he had one or two siblings, and they were completely you know, moved around and tossed around all the time between their

divorced parents and their grandparents. And this was uh in the Pacific Northwest, and uh n you know, no no real security, uh and uh Steve was uh punished you know. Uh I believe you know, hit uh by his grandparents once when they found out that he had told uh other children that he'd been you know, taken away from one parent. And I guess his grand parents said You're never gonna see your mother again or something like that.

And but they were, you know, secrets. Secrets are a part of the story, and they're a part of this terrible family dysfunction. And so he grew up with a lot of you know, instability. And but Steve was you know, he was raised Mormon, and he actually went on a mission, uh to South America. You know his children by that time. Steve's children never participated in that in that part of the of the Mormon you know, in your in your

young years when you go on a mission. But he had and he uh married his wife, Carrie was you know, a good Mormon, and they you know, seemed to have the start of a of a kind of average life. And then we know, you know, so one thing that uh I said, Check was such a great investigator. So he drove to Spokane, uh one day, and he was able to get a copy of the divorce records between Steve Powell and his wife, which were from the early

nineteen nineties. I believe it was so uh that was fascinating background for me because uh I, because their their childhood was you know, they were going through a custody battle, their children, five children, uh, Steve and his wife in the early nineties. And so Terry, his wife, is you know, of course, uh including every negative thing she can say about Steve, and and Steve is saying you know, things

about her. But she also uh includes quite a bit about the children, how the children were afraid of Steve, how how much he worked to you know, make his children take sides right and wanted them to live with him. There was uh the one daughter was old enough that she could you know, get out of the house. Uh when her parents were divorcing, another daughter, uh told her mother she was afraid to s you know, spend the

week in at Steve's. That her brothers you know, had stripped her naked and touched her one day against her will, and all kinds of things also in that divorce document, things about Josh's childhood pulling a knife on his mother once and threatening her. And uh, the there's another brother who you know had ha made nooses and and uh you know, weird violent drawings and uh it was and he turned s see, Steve turned to children against their mother.

Ay except for uh one of the daughters, and uh you know, uh we had a joke that that that Steve's house in puelp was g Fort Powell. We called it Fort Powell because yeah, that's where he and the kids, you know, and for a while, you know, Charlie and Braden were were part of that. But somebody that I has uh interviewed over the years who is a a psychiatrist and did a lot of work uh interviewing serial

killers to find out more about their childhoods. She she told me that, uh, she never met a killer or a serial killer that didn't didn't have a very disruptive childhood and was not abused themselves as children.

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their church. They somehow have found uh a balance and I not an accept tents, but they they find a way to uh to go on. And I mean I I just you know, seen and witnessed and heard Chuck over the years, and he he has, you know, told me stories that well one of them was the the day after the fire, the police chief of the West Valley city where Susan had disappeared, came came to f pewallup and he and Chuck sat in the car across from where their house had been that had exploded. This

is just the day after the fire. And uh, Chuck told me that, Uh, Maxwell cried and told Chuck, you know you were right, you were right you to warn us,

you were right. Josh was gonna do something. But uh, I never saw I've seen I've seen Chuck, you know, tear up, particularly in the early days when when she was missing at But there's a you know, there's a real uh strength to him that he Uh I I believe that he believes that they may never know what happened to Susan, but he just kind of keeps looking.

I think it's been a a few year and n years now since they've actually done a search, but they've got a couple people that kind of helped them and have done some some have continued to try to investigate some things. And and this, Uh, I think this this this trial for the wrongful death suit. Uh, there was an awful lot that that was that came out uh because of that, and I think there's some things they're

still looking at. I know the FBI has never been able to really get into both Michael and and josh It's computers because the two of them were doing an awful lot of back and forth when at the time Susan disappeared and then course afterwards, and they just can't seem to crack that.

that uh that hit it. But I'm I'm really surprised the the t FBI experts haven't been able to to find out because you know, I mean, potentially it would say where Susan is it? I I I would imagine they discussed, well, you know, if I I left her, you know, maybe the next day Josh told his brother, I left her here or we have to go here, uh to get her right. But I'm really I've always been interested in where was she for that one that first day? You know, where was that because Utah probably

wasn't way out in the desert. If he then with a rental car, you know, got her to mover, uh, probably with something, it could have even been somewhere, you know, not far outside the city.

And but Anne really really believed that, you know, she'll look at at ways to get around this and in this case, the fact that I think the thing that made The case for her was that here was an entity being in the state of Washington that was supposed to be doing a job protecting these kids. Now, in a lot of no body cases, there is no entity like that to bring along full death suit with, so

you know, that doesn't that doesn't exist. But in this case, you know, somebody was supposed to be protecting those boys, and was there a chance that in fact, uh, there were errors committed and and there were and it's all it's really frightening to read the d documents that even up until even you know, the week when Josh was told you're gonna have to take a psychical sexual examine and all of that, just the week before that, the kind of glowing reviews he got from not the caseworker,

not Elizabeth, but from you know, the people she was, you know, employed by a private agency. Caseworkers often are work for an agency that that do that work. But but the how the State of Washington and CPS, you know, and they had interviews with him over the you know period of time and with the k and with the kids and and you know, uh, even even as a psychologist at one point just you know, s said Josh was fine, that Josh could be Josh could be a loving parent.

friendship and fellowship to Josh. I think I think once or twice Josh and the boys went to Tim's church. But you know, Josh was really suspicious of churches, and and uh, this hatred for the the Mormons, you know, court of kind of ran his his mind. But uh, you know Tim offered you know, his home, and so sometimes Josh would have his custody visits there. The boys would play and play with Tim's kids and and they'd have a meal, you know together, and uh, I think

Tim gave him a Bible. He you know, prayed with Josh, or wanted to pray with Josh, or made Josh pray with him, you know. Uh, definitely meant well. And on the Sunday that the house exploded, Uh, I'm trying to remember if Tim uh how he exactly got the word.

Of course it was on television here on radio, but he went across the street to Steve's house and uh one of the Josh's sister, Elina, was there, uh alone, I think, and sat at sat at the table with her, and she'd gotten one of the good bye texts from j from Josh and and uh, so I I know he was, you know, reaching out to the family. Then

I think, I think so many people underestimated Josh. So many I think, starting with the West Ely City Police and then you know, most of the people who cross paths with him, and here in Washington State, they just underestimated what he was capable of.

she was staying at her father's house. And she was maybe ten years old, and but by the time she was uh, you know, grown. She had also been brainwashed by Steve Powell. And I don't think you know, I'm not using that term lightly. He brainwashed those kids, uh, and it was kind of like, you know, them against the world, Fort Powell against the world. So she was living there, and you know, Josh took every advantage of or he could. He just didn't know how to be

a father take care of his kids. So uh when he and the boys, you know, moved back after Susan disappeared, she would, you know, watch the children. And I think Josh Peter a little bit t to do that. Most of these people are never working. Also, Uh, they just live at their father's house. And she uh was very defensive of Josh and even you know, it caused a split between her and her older sister, who was you know, the normal healthy one that was uh living in Utah

with her family. Uh uh Alena, you know, uh just uh shows sides and uh. So one of the things was this website that there were a couple of websites. Uh. Josh wanted to start one soon after Susan disappeared, and actually sat on a sofa at her friend's house in Utah to to to try to build one. And uh then he of course moved back to Puyallup and the website very quickly, very quickly became not about who Susan is or was or her disappearance. It became about Josh

and Steve's theories about what happened to Susan. And there was a a man in Utah who disappeared, Uh, I believe it's just a few weeks before Susan, and they go hombed on the vat and decided that she'd run away with his cry and he he's never been found. But you know that's not Susan. They're just you know,

no chance. And but they they would, they would, you know, uh try to uh promote these theories that she'd run off and left her children and that ever, every theory they could think of that Susan, to besmirch Susan and her reputation, to say she's not she's not the woman you thought, she's not the mother you thought, you know, and uh and l Alena participated in that and w and then later she started her own website, I think, and put up a bunch of old family videos that

she thought, oh I know what they were. She they showed that Susan used to be uh friendly with Steve and right, so to try to uh dismiss that argument that Susan was always suspicious of Steve that that's why she and Josh moved to Utah was to get away from Steve. Well, here's a family photo of s Uh Susan smiling with Steve in his presence, And so doesn't that prove Susan isn't who we thought she was And just you know, it'd gotten nasty, It really did.

many searches, searches of property. This case has captivated the imagination of people and it won't let go. People messaged me said that they were obsessed with this case. There's so many responses from this.

lot about the people. But in this case, the crime is not the end of the story, and there's there are several mysteries still a part of this. And I think, like, like we mentioned the John Benney case, I think it's those cases that forever haunt us, like Natalie who's never been found and who killed John? Bunny Ramsay, where's Susan Powell? You know, those kinds of those kinds of mysteries that uh, you know go go unsolved. Uh I I think I

think it's very intriguing. I think, especially with this case, we look, we learn a little bit more. Uh you know, every once in a while, there's uh uh you know, I don't I don't believe in the word closure. I just don't think, oh, you know, there's no one day you know, when they when they won the jury award, you know, several weeks ago. I don't think the Coxes said, wh boy, that's over with, you know, or at least

that's done. No, it's it's not like that. And even if Josh had been arrested or you know, it just that. I I don't think you wake up in one day and then there's there's closure. But I think you learn to live with a tragedy. And I think I think the lucky ones find some way to learn to live with it and and and then there are people that can't or or don't don't learn that. But but it's still, you know, it's still you know, quite a mystery. And I know everybody would like to know where Susan.

weight just before the night before. They had mentioned before they didn't want to go with their daddy before, but especially were hesitant and mentioned Brayden mentioned, I don't want to see daddy, I want to stay here. So they were very adamant that day, so so much heartbreaking. Again, no one could know, no one could predict, no one

could prevent what happened. And then despite Chuck Cox and Judy their fears that this, especially once he had that psycho sexual evaluation and knew that he wasn't going to get custody of the kids, that he was to be feared, and certainly that horror came true. Just stay incredibly, I think, you know, I think a lot of this.

You know, I don't and it's not gonna be you don't know, You're they're going to their death, you know, I know. Elizabeth Griffin Hall, a social worker d a caseworker told me, I mean she drove them to their death. And uh, you know, uh, but the Coxes seem to be able to focus on, you know, what what can they do? Now? What can they do? And and uh and I really wanna make sure I add something about

what this means for other states. I and even before the the the Wrongful Death UH reward award, some time after Charlie Braden's death, a a state legislator here is proposed a law that would say that if you're even a person of interest in your spouse's death or disappearance, that you r you can't have custody of your children. That that didn't go anywhere, and I I never found out why that didn't really go anywhere in the legislator legislature.

Maybe maybe uh maybe it's too broad, right, but I think that it's something for states to uh pay attention to. And especially after this you know, multi million dollar uh wrongful death UH suit that who what how do you handle custody issues and custodial visits when there's been a crime committed? And you know, I believe that with Josh, he should have his only custody visits should have been you know, in a in an environment where there was

security at least and some kind of controlled environment. But you know, it wasn't in the office building where a number of other parents had their visits, where there was staff everything. They didn't you know, they were talked into allowing him to be at the pastor's home and then at this rental house that maybe its States were stricter about where do custody visits, where can they take place? And how do we really protect children from our worst

possible the worst possible scenario. I I really think that's uh something that could be you know, something that could be done that that could come out of all of this and for states to pay, you know, pay a new attention to people who are having custody visits, who are under suspicion they might be innocent, but they haven't been cleared. And how do you create a secure environment during those custody visits if there's you know, they're still allowed to see their children.

that person. And because we have seen people take out their frustrations and their their desperation and kill their children. So this is not the first time at all.

of the worst. And and you know, really nobody believed them. S maybe you know, and Bremner and a few people, but uh, you know, he was just you know, h h his his anger at them at the church, at you know, at Susan you know, and you just think, you know, when I gave talks on this book and

I still do. But when I'd give a talk at a at a library in Seattle, and and you know, I sort of uh adopted the uh you know, the New York City transit systems, saying it, if you see something, say something, you know, because Susan's friends knew that Josh was you know, this was a domestic dispute. This is domestic violence, yea. It it was a case of domestic violence.

And they knew that he was treating her badly, and they knew that she was uh afraid something would happen because she wrote, you know, she wrote a handwritten will that she put in in her safety deposit box saying, if anything happens to me, you know, look at Josh, it wasn't an accident. If anything happens to me, it wasn't an accident. Then she did a video, you know,

diary of ever all their belongings. So and she says on the front of on the beginning of that, you know, I don't know what's gonna happen, but I'm documenting her life right now. And uh so, I I wish. The other thing I wish is that people had, you know, somebody had convinced her to leave if one of her sisters really said, Susan, I'm gonna I'll drive down there right now and get you in the boys. But for

many reasons, uh, she didn't. She didn't leave Josh because he'd well, he threatened her, he told her, you know, you'll never see the boys.

hear that. But yeah, but there's you know, so many angles to this story and the the custody of situation and the domestic violent situation, and uh, it just c kind of goes on and on.

their own with other members of the church. So I think it's just again incredible that somebody would consider murder rather than divorce, and in this particular case, rather than not have custody of their children, full coustody of their children, not just visitations, they decided to slaughter their children in such a dramatic way. I want to thank you so much.

originally hardcover. It's a paperback, it's an audiobook, it's an e book, and all the usual places which are kind of narrowed right now, but stores closed, but it's always there of course on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles and other sites like that. And as you mentioned before, and the subject of a twenty twenty program this Friday. Unless you know less, we're reporting, you know, civil unrest in the United States after the election. Who knows. It could get bumped,

but but it'll air so that everybody can watch. Look at the twenty twenty website too, or or my website for information about the show.