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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening. Every once in a great while, a genuine murder mystery unfolds before the public size such is the tragic case is Susan Powell and her murdered boys, Charlie and Braden. When the pretty Utah mother went missing in December of two thousand and nine, the media was swept up in the story, with lenses and microphones trained on Susan's husband, Josh. He said he had no idea what happened to Susan, and that he and the boys had been camping in the middle of a snowstorm. It was
hard to know what or who to believe. Over the next three years, bombshell by bombshell, a world of secrets about the Powell family came to light. Josh's father, Steve, who was sexually obsessed with Susan, would ultimately be convicted of unspeakable perversion, Josh's brother Michael would commit suicide, and in the most stunning event of them all, Josh Paul would murder his two little boys before killing himself. Why
did he do it? What really happened to Susan? This is the shocking true story of the Powell family that no reader will soon forget. The book that we're featuring this evening is If I Can't Have You, Susan Powell, her mysterious disappearance and the murder of her children, with my special guest, journalist and author Rebecca Morris. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for a green In his interview, Rebecca Morris.
Hi, Dan, thank you so much for having me again.
It's always nice.
Talking to you.
It's always a pleasure. And this is one heck of a story. If I Can't Have You, let's talk about why you came to want to write this book, how you came to be in a physician to write this incredible book.
Well, and I wrote this with my co author, Greg Olson, my sometimes co author. We write some nonfiction, some true crime together, and he also writes a lot of fiction. But in we started following this case pretty much as soon as Susan disappeared in two thousand and nine. And as you and I have talked about Dan, a publisher is like a case adjudicated and has an ending. So there are a lot of cases where we just kind of watched to see what happens and saw this unfold.
And uh, I had begun in two thousand eleven, so basically a year and a half after Susan disappeared, actually you know, putting together some research and and uh towards towards doing a book. And then when Josh killed his sons and himself on February fifth of two thousand twelve, you know it, we just jumped into high gear because it looked like that was you know, the ending of Susan hadn't been found and uh still has not been found.
But uh we we then jumped on it, and UH and I spent the next uh you know, a couple of years, UH talking to Susan's friends and family. You can't really do a book like this without uh to this extent, without family involvement. And her parents, Chuck and Judy Cox, were very open with us and really wanted to keep her name and face out there and so
they spent you know, many hours with us. I went to Utah twice to get to know her, her friends, and and to you know, drive to the area of that that desert where Josh said that he and the boys had gone camping. So then this became the first and only you know, full length uh book. Uh D. One of Josh's sisters has written kind of a memoir of life in the family, but uh this is you know, it's just a incredibly sad story. And I just realized
we're coming up on the anniversary. You'd be uh nine years this December sixth uh.
Since she uh disappeared, absolutely and very close to the dating question that this horror story began, and that was December seventh, two thousand and nine. And you take us to a neighbor friend dead be called well. And before that you introduce West Valley City, which is a suburb of Salt Lake City, and also the subject of Salt Lake City obviously is as you write, a mecca for
lack of a better word, for Mormons. And so tell us a little bit about this Mormon and its connection to this story and these people, and a little bit about West Valley City outside of Salt Lake City.
Well that's one reason I spent a lot of time there because I'm not Mormon, but I wanted to learn as much as I could, and I wanted to as much as an author can step into that world. So all of Susan's you know, closest friends, uh were Mormon, and her life, you know, her family very active in the Mormon Church in Puel Up, Washington. Josh's family had been Mormon, and his father, Steve, had even gone on a on on the assignment once as they do when
they're when they're college age. But his father and siblings had gradually left the church, and in fact, part of their vendetta Steve and Josh is against Susan, you know, creating these stories that she'd just run off or run off with a with another man or something. Then they they turned on the on the church and and blamed the church. But West Valley City is a it's a suburb. It's a kind of a very sprawling, you know a lot of a lot of malls and I got lost
a lot. Uh Yeah, I think it's really people probably know this, but all the address is around the Salt Lake City area pertained to the their distance from the temple, and so a lot of places have actually two addresses. But uh, her neighborhood, you know, were all her Mormon friends. They attended the same ward, which is the local place of worship in a in a community, and you know, it was a just a very close group they you know, her Mormon friends were her daycare provider, they were the
people she worked with at at Wells Fargo. Uh, they were you know, they walked to church together on Sundays in the neighborhood and just a a very close knit community. And Susan was very open with these friends. So we have her you know, uh Facebook posts and her journals and some of her letters and and you know, they they knew that the the problems between Josh and Susan were we're growing over the years.
Now you introduce and again you have mentioned that without this cooperation and this information, you wouldn't be able to write this incredible book with this access. And so that's Chuck and Judy Cox, Susan's parents, and at the time, Susan is twenty eight at the time of the story and Josh is thirty three years old. Then they have children, Brayden and Charlie, and they're one's five and one's three. I believe that's their agency.
Tell us a little when she appeared, but their birthdays are both in February, so it's a little you know, a little close there. But I think there were two and four.
Tell us a little bit about Susan's life growing up and with Chuck, and what's chuck Chuck's background, because Chuck's background is important to this story as well, So tell us a little bit about life with Chuck and Judy and and his background.
Well, it was it was, you know, a a a really close family. Chuck and Judy had four daughters. Susan was I believe the third of the fourth, and the girls were close. They haven't necessarily stayed as close to the church as their parents have, uh, but Susan and her sister Deniece were uh particularly uh close uh all
through growing up in their young adulthood. So the the the the thing is with in the Mormon Church is that the reason young couples kind of date a short time and Mary is they're not supposed to have any you know, intimacy before marriage, and so you know, uh, Josh and Susan dated. I think It was just eight
months before they were engaged and got married. They had me at at there are a lot of social activities for young Mormons so that they can meet each other and and date and Mary and Uh Susan had met Josh at at one of these young people's UH events. Susan at the time was in attending a UH hairstyling school and UH Josh was finishing at the University of Washington, I believe, and uh they had both you know, dated.
Some but.
Uh d U Susan assumed, you know, she she and her fam new family, her family would be would be Mormons. They'd they'd stay probably in Washington State, and you know, she'd have children. That was the most important, you know thing for her, and you know, m We know they they actually moved to Utah because Josh's father was so obsessed with Susan and she just wanted to get away from him.
Now, tell us a little bit about Josh and it's complicated, but you alluded to this that there was problems. She believed that she was she knew she was Mormon, but she believed that that he would come around, at least in terms of their common goal of being of having this religious pursuit tell us a little bit about Josh's parents, and particularly Steve and his attitudes towards the Mormon Church and his experiences.
Yeah, and I actually forgot to talk about Chuck. I will very quickly. He is You could not invent a more interesting character father than he is, you know, so sharp, so determined to find Susan and to find out the truth.
And his background was he'd been in the air and uh he had been he was a uh an FAA Crisch investigator, so he knew about, you know, the ways investigations are conducted, and he'd been to accident sites and so all of that would you know, uh, not necessarily prepare him for what happened to his daughter, but made him a a particularly good ally for his uh missing daughter and somebody uh particularly you know, unusually sharp that the West Valley City Police Department probably wasn't used to
to working with Josh's family. His parents had both been uh Mormons, and his mother remained Mormon. Uh. What we know is we learned a lot about Josh as a as a teenager from their divorce documents, and his parents divorced when uh, when Josh was a teenager and he was one of five children, three girls and two boys. And in the divorce documents and when his parents are are you know, doing a custody uh battle over the
five kids. It it was included in the reports that Josh had threatened his mother with a knife when he was a teenager. You know, he'd killed his sister's gerbil, you know, and and there'd been a lot of acting out. And Steve Powell, who turned on the Mormon Church, didn't just leave it, but really turned on it, had a
great deal of sway over his children. Uh. Four of the five children, uh after the divorce lived with him and lived with him well into their adult years and began, you know, really believed what he believed, whatever that was, whether it was about you know, his views on marriage, or his views on the church, or his you know, views on Susan and Josh. He just was you know, very very controlling. And that is the atmosphere also that Josh and Susan's young sons found themselves after she disappeared.
Now, talk about this atmosphere that she came into and she you know, meets Steve and the family and as married to Josh, what are some of the events. We don't want to give everything away because in this book you did that information comes to everybody and including the reader in time. But let's talk about what the environment was in the home environment that people even from the
outside knew. People that didn't know everything. What did people, including Chuck Cox and Judy Cox, what did they know about this relationship?
Okay, now, are you wondering about the relationship within Steve's house or or Josh and Susan Later.
We're talking about we're talking about Yeah, we're talking about Josh and Susan, But we I wanted to have the audience understand that that there had been a break between Steve and Susan, and there was follows about those events.
Susan and Josh lived for a while at Steve's and you know, they'd had they had they had some various jobs, and they were having trouble sort of you know, standing financially on their own, and Steve invited them to live in his house for a little while. They actually lived in I think it was a second bedroom or a dan on the main floor that didn't have a door,
so they they haun curtains. But Susan discovered that Stephen was a voyeur and was you know, peeking at her and brushing up against her, and he even declared his love for her. And we know, uh, we'd found out later that he was also taking pictures of her when she was in the bathroom and she didn't know it.
And and but she she.
Uh, you know, he he had this idea that Susan would leave Josh and Steve would marry her and they'd raise you know, his his grandkids together. So she told uh Josh that you know, this is pretty creepy, and he agreed they could move, so they they moved to Utah. Uh, so she you know, really fled uh pull up her Uh. Her parents, Uh, Chuck and Judy. I don't think they knew the details of what was going on Susan, you know, pretty much all along the way protected them in some ways.
They they weren't people that she you know, turned to when things weren't their worst with Josh, and she had friends that she turned to, but I think there was a lot her parents uh didn't know. Because of course, one of the important things and and the Mormon faith is that you stay married and you do whatever you have to can you do to stay married. And Uh, Susan did go to UH counseling with a Mormon counselor and Josh I think went went once and that was it.
But UH, she most likely was encouraged to to work things out. So what her friends knew at the time of her disappearance was that Josh wasn't working Susan was. Josh c controlled the money. Josh sometimes didn't give Susan enough money to buy groceries for the kids. Susan sometimes called a neighbor to see, if, you know, if they had a couple extra hot dogs or something she could
feed her boys. Josh should turn. He was always kind of quirky, but the people around Susan, you know, began to pick up on he was just, you know, becoming becoming mean and controlling, and they were very worried about her.
It's interesting too that you talk about not having enough food and she was the breadwinner, but also that at the same time he was depriving her of things and the children of food. He didn't deprive himself of anything, did he.
Oh my gosh, his garage when he packed up to after Susan went missing, you know, within within a week or two. He was packing up to leave, and uh, he had spent he had you know, two three four of everything in the house, whether computers, cameras, gardening equipment. Ah, he just had and just boxes and boxes of things and duplicate things that he'd bought. So he you know, treated himself to whatever. You know, I the more I found out about this story, Dan, the more it became.
You know, it's a it's a story of domestic violence. They were not known to the West Valley City Police before she disappeared. It it wasn't that Josh you know, beat her and had been called to the house. Uh, and the police have been called to the house numerous times. There's a lot of domestic violence that isn't It doesn't fall into that what we think of domestic violence. It's it's very controlling, and you know, they did shove each other,
you know, once somewhere along the way. But you know, I discovered that Josh had actually been planning for a couple of years too. You know, he didn't want to be married. He didn't want to be a father either, but which was surprising because he you know, fought tooth and nail for custody of the kids later, but he didn't really want to be a father, He didn't really want to be a husband.
Let's talk about the children before we talk about December seventh, two thousand and nine, and the crime scene itself. That's very, very mysterious and has more questions and answers. Let's talk about the four year old and two year old Charlie and Braden, and just a little bit when those children arrived and how happy was Susan, And also some talk of a little bit later that not everybody, especially Chuck and Judy by that time, thought it was unusual for
her to have another child. Tell us about that.
Well, you know, Susan was just uh elated when she found out that she was uh pregnant.
With uh.
Charlie was the first son and one of the strangest stories in UH in the book, and yes, Dan is just the the story of the day that she was to give birth and her parents had come down from pew wallup to West Valley City to be with her, and you know, her water broke at home and Josh was downstairs on his computer and couldn't kind of be bothered to to step up her p Her parents drove her to the hospital.
Yes, and.
While she was in labor, you know, Josh finally showed up and he was had his laptop with him and was sitting across the room on his laptop, and you know, her parents are holding her hand, and finally Chuck goes over and sort of, you know, grabs his arm and says, you've got to come, you know, speak to Susan. And it's just one of the one of the strange things I've i've ever heard of. Yeah, and she she wanted more children, and and Brydon came along a couple of
years later, and she was hoping for more. There's a slight chance that she'd been pregnant and in miscarriage just before, uh, just before she disappeared. Her friend's thought that perhaps, uh, that had happened, but she hadn't really uh uh shared that news with anybody. And once people knew the kind of father that Josh was, you know, people had doubts about her doing this by herself, but she did want more children.
Wh talk about December seventh, two thousand and nine. It's a fresh snow outside of Salt Lake City. There's a storm. You write that there's a three day winter storm yeah, and Debbie called, well, is her daycare provider and her friend and her neighbor. So what happens that morning.
Well, the morning of December seventh, two thousand and nine, which was Monday, Josh or Susan didn't show up at Debbie's house with the boys. And Debbie was a licensed childcare provider and you know, one of their closest friends. And so she had six or eight other children and she piled them in her van and drove to Susan and Josh's house. She was you know, Susan was extremely responsible. Susan would have called and checked in or let Debbie
know if their plans had changed. When she couldn't reach them on either of their cell phones. She drove to their house and there had been snow overnight and she could tell from being outside the house that, uh, the no car had been you know, been down the driveway or up the driveway, and there were no footsteps in and out of the house. She still couldn't reach somebody.
She called, uh, Josh's oldest sister, Jennifer, who came to the house, and then they called the police, and Jennifer gave them permission to break a window and and go into the house. Uh, and there was just no sign of the family. Uh. In fact, Susan's purse and was on the bedside table. And you know, we we know now then there was some some blood blood spatter in
the living room. So they finally our later reached Josh on his cell phone, and you know, and he says, you know, he took the boys the night before camping and where they'd gone. And and basically, uh, Jennifer and uh and the police a c you know, come to the house right now, come come right now. And he spends a couple more hours, you know, putting the car
through a car wash and dawdling around. And and meanwhile the police have discovered that Susan hasn't been seen since Sunday afternoon, when she went to church with the boys, you know, came back to the house. Her friend Ghovanna came over to help Uh Susan with some knitting or crocheting, and Josh, who never lifted a hand, you know, uh, volunteered to make dinner and had made pancakes and took two or three hours making pancakes. And in the meantime,
he'd called his father and had a long conversation phone. Also, so Susan's been Susan hasn't been seen. Susan didn't go to work, And the police look through the van window of Josh's van once he finally pulls up at the house and they can see that there's a second phone in the car and it's it's Susan's phone.
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Right now with this, all these friends that are concerned you talk about Jovanna, you talk about to be called well, and of course it's their own family as well. You just talked about this fresh snow police are eventually called. What happens? How does this proceed? What do people think has happened? And regardless of what they think, how do they act, especially towards Josh?
Yes, well right away. I mean I can't think of a family member friend of Susan's that didn't think to themselves, what have you done? Josh? And a couple of them expressed that to Josh, what have you done? And course he just said, you know, he'd she didn't wanna go camping with them, and this really ridiculous story that he confused the days he f he thought he thought that they were going camping on a Saturday night and they'd
come home Sunday. Well, you know, no, they came home on on Monday, and he cut he hadn't called out he was working by them, and uh, he hadn't called his job to say he wasn't going to be there. So a people immediately think that that Josh is somehow responsible. But what they do is they just play nice because they think there's more chance that they'll find out what happened to Susan if they're not accusatory.
Josh.
And uh, Josh has taken to to the police station that evening, so Monday evening, and he's interviewed, you know, by the police, and then they let him go home, and they let him go home in his van, and he spends all of Monday night cleaning his van. The neighbors can see him, you know, going back and forth to the van and the garage and and he cleans a the house and he cleans the garage and I'm
sorry of the car. And then he's supposed to go back to the police department the next day, and he stalls and stalls and stalls, and finally he is called Susan's father. Uh so this is now she's been missing, you know, more than forty eight hours, and that's his first you know contact with with her father and jaw and u uh, Chuck prompts, you know, Chuck, Chuck encourages him, Josh are supposed to be at the police department. You've
missed your appointment. So finally Josh goes down to the police department and they take his car to keep it and go through it, and he walks out of the police department and gets a ride to the Salt Lake City Airport and then goes missing for two days, which
is and his censor with his sister. So, I mean, you know, clearly something is going on, and the police haven't really been They don't watch him, they don't follow him, they don't seize his car immediately, and they kind of got off the whole investigation got off on the wrong foot.
How do Chuck and Judy proceed here being the grandparents and worrying and being concerned about these grandkids and also obviously their daughter, how do they proceed? And we talked about him being an investigator at heart, so what does he do? And especially you just mentioned that the police probably aren't responding as fast as Chuck would like, what does he do?
Yeah, Well, within a few days, I believe by the next weekend, he's come to West Valley City and there is a you know gathering at the family's ward and you know, not a memorial service. Nobody knows that where Susan is or or that she's deceased, but but there's
there's kind of a gathering. But the first thing Chuck did, which I think was really fascinating, is that he called Ed Smart, the father of Elizabeth Smart, who had been you know, kidnapped out of her home and you know, tortured and assaulted for several months before she was found. And course UH and the Smarts were Mormon, and Chuck called him and said what do I do? And Ed Smart said, you do whatever you have to do to keep Susan's face and name in front of the media.
So Chuck and Judy, you know, within a few days they had a uh a news conference in UH pullup UH with with the media to to talk about Susan and very emotional UH news conference. And then he you know, went to West Valley City to talk to the police and to UH to talk to Josh and UH. They didn't really have a long sit down talk. He saw Josh at this at this kind of service at the at the ward for Susan. But but that was uh
about it. Jo. There were some candlelight vigils that that Josh uh went to and took the boys too, and there were also visuals in Puyallup. But Josh did not, you know, like we see a lot of spouses both sincerely and insincerely speaking to the media when their spouses
is missing. Josh, you know, didn't do that. He was he was caught by television reporter as a time or two and mumbled something, but he didn't, you know, he didn't get out there and and you know, put a face on this and plead, you know, for help from from the public. He retreated to his father's house.
Right now, you write about all of the people that are friends, people that are involved in the church, but also people that work with her. And it's interesting that that she's always in the family knows this. Chuck and Judy know that she's always journals since she was a kid. But there's also a diary or journal that was found by a coworker, and the coworker knew about it. Tell us a little bit about this journal or diary and its contents.
Well she left, she loved a couple of things. One is, her coworker found at I believe, in her desk at Wells Fargo a letter that said, if something happens to me, look at Josh. And then it also directed them to a safe deposit box where Susan had handwritten out a will and you know, mentioned her children and also mentioned if something had happened to her, you know, look at Josh.
The other thing Susan made was just just a couple of months before she disappeared, she made a video recording of herself walking through the house and talking about the the their belongings and Josh's you know, the things he'd spent money on. And I think that was really for two purposes. One was if they divorced and separated, she
wanted an accounting of you know, what they owned. But the other thought that must have been in her mind because she says on the video that if something happens to me, or you know, if if I'm gone missing, you know, she wanted this this uh video of of what you know, what was where, what was where in the house and and what was going on in the house, and so it's quite but she, you know, first, for a number of years, she had given herself deadlines to
UH pursue UH divorce, and usually every April leading up to every April when they're wedding UH anniversary was she'd say, okay me, you know this this April this spring, i'll I'll talk about divorce. And she did talk about divorce to Josh, and he basically threatened her and said he would he would take the children and she'd never see the children again. And UH was as intimidating as he possibly could be.
The police as well discover at least it looks like to everyone that she had this plan, that she had had enough, and she documented the her frustration in this marriage, but as a Mormon, she wanted to honor that marriage and stay with him. However, she had her limits. Tell us a little bit about some of the things she says regarding that and that deadline and his behavior that's n intolerable to her.
Well, there was like a lot of psychoge logical UH controlling going on. And as I mentioned, she was very open with her friends, and I know that they have wondered. You know in recent years, if they could have done more, if there was any way they could have intervened, but you know, they they there was a certain acceptance with
time of oh, that's just Josh, Josh'll be Josh. And you know, no one could've have known, uh, what he was, you know, what he was planning, the you know, the money and and not having enough money even for for diapers for the boys. And you know, none of us can explain why Susan tolerated that when she was the one,
you know, working full time. She did, Uh, she did talk to an attorney, uh at some point in the last few months of her life, and divorce attorney, and on his suggestion, I think that's when she wrote her will. And she also opened the bank account that Josh didn't know about. But you know, some of the some of the tell tale signs that that that we we kind of take for granted after somebody disappears is that, you know, Josh and Susan were buying large amounts of life insurance.
Susan knew Josh was was buying this, but it was f for for the children and uh, but it was just a a bad situation and Susan was doing what she thought was best, you know, for the for the boys. Not that Josh was a great father, but but uh, you know, they they loved him, and uh, it would have been avoid without him. But there was this threat that he'd you know, take the kids that was hanging over her.
You introduced the character Jovanna, and Jovanna is unique in that she really didn't know Josh. She hadn't met Josh until thirteen days before Susan's disappearance, so she has this unique perspective on who he is at at least this time. And there is talk in your book that there's a Utah Josh and a Washington Josh and that once he had moved to Utah, his character had completely changed for
some reason. And she's and you talk about that. Around Thanksgiving, Jovanna would see Susan Josh in the Boys more than six times. However, with that nothing she suld pinpoint. But she said that something was off but couldn't say what.
Yes, yeah, so she was, you know, somebody pretty new in their lives and I I can't remember if if Jovanna was new to the neighborhood and they have and uh, and they were just getting acquainted, but they found some things in common. She and Susan both saying in the choir at the ward and they you know, there's a one night a week when the the women in the ward meet and you know, and do crafts and talk and and worship. And so she was getting to know
a Jovanna in that way. And Jovanna was also uh able to to babysit a little bit for Charlie and Brayden. So when Josh sort of left Susan uh without a backup, uh, she could call it Jovanna and Jovanna's uh children are mostly grown by that time, so it was rather unique because where where Uh Susan's closest friend, uh Kersey hilliwell, who lived on the street, you know, had known Josh, you know for years. Uh. Jovanna was seeing this, you know,
very late stage. Josh, who couldn't seem you know, just seems so nice and so helpful and making, you know, inviting her to stay for dinner that Sunday and making the pancakes when he didn't know how to make uh pancakes, but he you know, called his father to get a recipe. I mean, who needs a recipe? You know, to make pancakes, and she just thought, you know, he was you know,
a pretty a pretty good husband. But she also saw his you know, his his quirks, and and then Jovanna, you know, she was the last person to see Susan. So this this new friend becomes, you know, the very last person to see Josh and Susan. And it's it's kind of mind boggling, really.
What we see Josh do too, and you write in this book is very interesting that he he talks to Cursey and her husband, and he has all his laptops. At this point, the police have proceeded with this and have confiscated his laptops and cell phones, and there's been searches on his van. And so he goes to these friends that are still there. May be suspicious, but they're still acting like his friends and supportive, and he sets
up a website in dedication to Susan. In reality, tell us what that website really look like and the tone of that website.
Well, the website began, and Josh was never shy about asking people or demanding people to help him. So, but you're right, Carosey and her husband John went along with it because they were trying to, you know, be on Josh's side. So the website initially was you know, pictures of Susan and the boys and just kind of you know,
remembering her, and it very quickly became something else. And I think as soon as Josh made it back to puellup at his father's house, they turned that site into uh a website that attacked Susan, attacked the Mormon Church, uh blamed Susan. There was a uh a man in Utah who went missing it about this, just a few days before Susan did, who's never been found. They uh jumped on that and decided that the two of them had run away together. You know, Susan had deserted her boys.
So the site became very much Josh and Steve against Susan and the world, blaming the Coxes, blaming the Mormon Church, and UH it just uh you know was uh uh a I you know, her her friends were just terribly sad to see that that this is what was happening. Also about that time, Steve uh let it be known that he had Susan's teenage journals had been left in
his house and in storage. When Josh and Susan had moved to Utah, and that became uh something that he thought he could leverage, you know, and kind of kind of blackmail Susan's family with.
M M. We have forgotten to talk about the children and the two children that were maybe likely witnessed something, had information, but they're very young and they are they are interviewed by police very very very carefully.
There In fact, the f the the first night that Josh is interviewed at the police station, they they have the boys go along and you know, the police by the soda and everything like that. The next day when Josh is down to the police station and they confiscate his van, the children are with uh Josh's sister, Jennifer, and they are taken to a very specific uh agency that the police department works with where there's a social
worker to talk to the boys. And even though they're two and four years old, they they have information and one of the boys says that mommy did go on the trip with them. Mommy was in the back of the van and Mommy stayed with the crystals that that she was left where they'd been looking at rocks or something, and uh so, uh, they surprised Josh at that second interview with you know, here, here's what your sons are saying.
And they still, you know, let him walk out of the out of the police station and that's when he uh goes off and rents a car. So the kids, you know, there's such an em it's such a young age. But they they were very clear with those couple of memories that mommy was in the car, they left mommy
and Uh. Later we'd find out just how impressionable, you know, Josh and Steve were on them, because between the time their mother disappeared and they went to live with their grandparents, UH and Josh had visitation, they were they were emotionally and physically damaged. It was just, you know, m the saddest thing about this.
Absolutely we're gonna talk more about uh, Chuck and Judy and they having the custody of the children and their behavior after all of this, but we're gonna stop for a second to talk about Meason Mesin makes high end kitchen knives at are comparable to one hundred and fifty dollars knives, but sell them directly to you for a fraction of the price. Everyone has a knife in the kitchen. Most people have a dull one that doesn't work well anymore.
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and while Josh remained having visitation. Right from the very beginning, there was some odd behavior exhibited by the children. Tell us a little bit about what Chuck and.
Judy saw well, and they never uh, they never actually got custody. What they did is they were the the boys lived with them, and they were officially foster parents when Josh when they had to move out of s of Steve's house. So th so the boys spent let's see two two years uh living or a year and a half, oh year and a half living with Josh and Steve. And and I'll just to include a a
quick step here in this whole story. So Steve had Susan's journals from teenage years and was threatening to publish them. That let the police gave them reason to go into his house and they raided Steve's house and guess what they felt that he was a voyeur and had child, had pornography and had been taking pictures of neighbor girls
on the toilet through his through one window. And so the boys were removed from Steve's house and after a few days they were given to the Coxes, just as you know, temporary basically, and uh, well, Josh had to,
you know, start this ugly custody battle. And what the boys uh told you know, their grandparents is that and they had been you know, they'd been indoctrinated by Steve and Josh that the Mormons killed their mother, that it was the Mormon's fall, that they hated Mormons, they wanted to kill Mormons, and that uh also that their father slept with them naked, and they'd were naked, slept with Josh.
And then there was an incident at a bathtub. The boys are taking a bath together and Chuck here something and goes in and the younger boy, Brydon, is holding Charlie's head under the water, and Chuck told me it just they weren't playing. They weren't playing. Something had had just this terrible, you know, terrible effect on them and uh so, I I mean it must have been extremely disorienting for them. And uh, they you know, went to school, and under the guidelines of the you know, Josh trying
for custody, he was allowed visitation. There was a minister that who was a neighbor of Steves that kind of befriended Josh, and one of his weekly visits could happen at this minister's house. And then Josh, apparently without the knowledge of the local police in the Puylop area, rented an empty house and you know, put a couple things in it and that once a week one of the
visitations would happened there. And uh, the caseworker who was always you know with them on on visits, Uh, I think I was for a long time, the only interview that that she'd ever given. Uh. The the other families who would have visitation down at the you know, the office building in Pierce County where people's other children, they didn't wanna be around Josh. And so somehow it was approved that the boys could go to this empty house.
And then you know, then February fifth happened and uh, Josh shut the door in her face, and and and just this this terrible thing happened. So uh, the boys were you know, definitely acting out uh at their grandparents, uh, because you know, they'd spent their their mother was gone, you know, for three years, and they'd spent a year and a half two years with their father and grandfather.
What was revealed in the search of Steve's property Steve Powell's property in regards to his obsession with Susan, What does he claim in there? It's incredibly disturbing, But tell us what he says and believes and has written.
Well, he he, he, you know, I I read all I think it's ten thousand pages of his journal. You know, this man couldn't shut up and and h he just was obsessed, you know, with himself, very very narcissistic. So he really thought that Susan loved him and returned his his uh feelings for him, and of course she couldn't
stand to be around him. I will say one of the most interesting things that that I found in his journals is that a year or two before Susan went missing, Uh, Josh had been visiting his father, and Uh Steve wrote that Josh was fantasizing about Susan's death and fantasizing. You know, somebody comes to the door and says she'd been killed in a car accident or something, and that uh Josh
really wanted wanted out and it's just uh horrible. But what they found when they went into Steve's house was they found these photographs he'd taken of the little girl's next door and they found uh the pornography and child pornography. And so within a couple of days, Steve was arrested and charged with pornography and and voyeurism, and then he uh you know, eventually uh did serve uh two p two different prison terms.
Let's talk about this. You've talked about the search of the vehicle of the van, but there is another vehicle that police don't know about and another trip. So let's talk about the trip that U s that Josh went on that i've uh initially police were not aware of. But also the idea about Mike's car eventually being searched by police and their interest in that.
And this wasn't known too, if I can, I can't tell you how many times I rewrote this book Van, because I mean it was just there were new things uh becoming U unknown all the time in so, uh, they didn't know where Josh was for those couple of days when they seized his van, and incidentally, they found all kinds of weird things in the van, you know,
shovel and garbage bags. And then they found that that Thanksgiving weekend, so just a week before Susan disappeared, he'd been you know, at some big box stores buying a A H A a welding you know, welding equipment and all kinds of odd things. But what happened is when when Josh went to the Salt Lake City Airport and uh rented a car, and I believe he got a a temporary uh y, you know, a throwaway cell phone.
And what we uh found out about t year and a half two years later is that he called his brother Michael, who was in Kewallup, and he and Michael met up. And I don't know that we'll ever know for sure where Josh had put Susan's body. He said that he and the boys went camping out in an area that was southwest of Falt Lake City. There was
really no verifiable fighting of where they'd gone. Uh. The idea was that, well, they're ten thousand abandoned mines in in Utah, and that he might've put her down, uh a mine, but somewhere she was somewhere temporarily for a couple of days because he and Michael met up and the Susan's body was put into Michael's car and then they took it somewhere. So there's an eight hundred mile stretch of road between falt Lake City and pul Up, Washington. And again the police only found out later that Josh
had rented this car and disappeared. And they found out later that Michael's car, uh, he basically had abandoned at an Oregon a car lot, a junk a junk car lot, and a couple of years after Susan went missing. Uh, there were dogs, bloodhounds that did alert on Michael's car. They didn't necessarily have Susan's DNA in the car, but there had been i, you know, human remains in his car. So they you know, seized the car wrapped a bubble wrap and and you know, took it back to Utah.
And that's when they began, uh later to then put pressure on uh Michael, on Josh's brother. So you know, it's just kind of mind boggling that the police weren't watching Josh or following him. I I don't know. I can't necessarily point to other cases where they where that did happen. But uh, you know, he was later he was never named a suspect. He was named a person
of interest eventually. But you know, the other thing that this has uh gotten me very interested in is is literally what are called no body cases that they can't bring charges for. Uh. I mean it's very very rare to bring criminal charges before before a body is found. And uh when people you know, still on Facebook or social media say, you know, why are they just arrest Josh, Well, they didn't have anything to arrest him for. They didn't think so.
And you yes, you talk about the anguish that Chuck Cox has as a father and all the and also an investigator and also someone trying to help the police, and he is getting I mean, they're treating him well in terms of they can't give him information that's that that would indicate what they're y would indicate the relation their investigation completely. But they are giving him some hopeful uh idea that maybe there'll be some kind of arrest.
In fact, too much because he was uh, when they had when the boys were living with them. So this is and A two thousand and eleven and the very beginning of twenty twelve, Chuck says, the police told them every week, you know, we were there's gonna be an arrest and the rest is imminent, you know, any day now. And literally they were told that over and over again. And I I don't know what the uh police were thinking.
The man who is the police chief then has since retired and and talked a very little bit about the case, but of course couldn't at the time. I I think they I think the Coxes were misled. Uh perhaps just so the the police department would I know that as recently as a few months ago, the copses were still trying to get a copy of the police report that
is not redacted. I mean, it's nine years and everybody's dead, and I I I think this is a frustration that authors and and that families and a lot of people face, is why can't they know what else the police department found? Well, one reason might be that the the Utah police found something, you know, pretty interesting on Josh's computer that they never
shared with the police. In Washington State, so part of this confusing case is that we now have two states involved, and they didn't share this news with Washington State, and if they had, the boys wouldn't have been living with Josh.
And what is that in.
Well, that information is that Josh had what's called tuone porn on his computer and they knew that from just a couple of days after Susan went missing. That and it was ev all of it was very incestuously themed. It was incestuous stories. And I I had to look up tune porn. I'd never heard of it. And it takes somebody's made these these animated films that take well known characters like the characters from UH, the Simpsons and right and other cartoon characters and put put them in
uh ancestuous stories. And West Valley City, you know, never never let on about that for a couple of years, and I think if they, if they had, the boys wouldn't have been with the Josh and and maybe he wouldn't have been allowed, you know, these private visitations in this rental house. You know, I mean, one of one of the things that's that's come out of this story is that, you know, why should why should family reunification always be the goal. Sometimes it's not the right goal
for the children. Shouldn't the safety of the children come first? And why you know, family family custody visitations should be in in a in a in a building that with security and with you know, people around, and not some rental house.
Right. You also talk about you also talk about that there's some striking things that happen with other people interacting with these children. And there is a talk about that camping trip and something about mummy in a trunk. Tell us a little bit about.
That, incredibly, Well, I don't think there was another vehicle Mommy, mommy was in the van with them and Josh's van. But were you saying there's a there was a separate.
Vehicle or well, I just did that there was. There was these children saying certain things, and yet they were not I mean, I know it's it's sensitive to be able to interview these children, but they were not interviewed by police, even at the urging of Chuck. Chuck would be as you write in a book, there's many times when he would call police with new information, he was told just hang in there, just hang in there, hanging But also there was a very specific warning that he
had for police. What was that warning and what was that fear he had about Josh?
Well, Chuck all, he always thought Josh was going to do something. He always thought Josh was uh going to to kill them, and he he did warn the police, and course they kept up this, you know, and a and arrest is imminent. So the children were interviewed. I don't know that they were, Yes, they let's say so they were interviewed when Josh was you know, the second interview he had with the police when they were the
social workers. But also they were you know, they had pretty extensive physical exams after they when they came into the foster care system in Washington State. Uh, I don't know that they were ever interviewed again about well they were. You know, one of the boys Drew drew the car that the van and with the with the the four of them in the van, and uh so whenever something like that would come about, you know, Chuck with what
let the police department know? And also one of the boys Brew drew a drawing of what was him and himself and the words don't play with me or something in a big X over the over the picture as if he was, you know, trying to tell an adult to stop to stop messing with him. M Yeah, but Chuck warned them continually, you know, ch Josh's gonna do something, and.
What I you talk about this incredible investigation that police are doing. And then Chuck and Judy and even members of of of uh Josh's family are everyone including Susan's friends and even friends of Josh have now turned against him and believe he is guilty. That everything that he did, all his actions, there's a list that there's a list of things that people find incredibly disturbing and only draw
suspicion to him. You also write about instances where Chuck and Judy would see the children and Josh would not allow these children to see their grandparents.
Yeah, with this investigation a few months when he's gone back to Peuallum with them and they you know, they should have been you know, permitted to see their kids.
And he would occasionally Chuck and Judy would show up where they knew, you know, somebody would alert them that you know, Josh is at Josh is at home depot, Josh is at Costco, and so Chuck and Judy would go and hoping to see the boys and they might you know, catch a glimpse of them.
But he.
Of course wanted to control the situation and it wasn't until you know, the house was raided and the boys were taken that they were able to spend much time with the boys.
You talk about the investigation and the December camping trip. Police are very curious about going back to that area and conducting a search. You have mentioned that the idea that there was some talk of the thousands of minds that potentially could have been where she could have been hidden, and there was some talk that Josh had said something along those lines. It was a witness to say something like that. What was the result of that search by police.
Well, it's actually a little sketchy to put together how much they searched and where they searched. They did the police were very controlling of the investigation of the searches. You know, there were times where media were allowed to kind of go along in the film and they did have, uh, they did search some minds. They also at least once a fabricated a search to sort of you know, keep
the media kind of in their hip pocket. The I mean l literally there was a search where they never intended to be searching, but they just went out for a day and let the media know they were going out. So that doesn't give them much credibility. At one at one site, they found some items that had been burned, and uh, at one fire pit, you know this out in the middle of nowhere. Uh, a dog alerted on something.
But UH, I'm not aware that anything ever came from those searches, that they ever found anything or even something that was burned. I know that to this day, any time remains are found in Utah or you know, eastern Washington or Nevada, Uh that you know, people wonder, you know, if it's going to be uh Susan and it it hasn't been to date. But you know, the searches were
very inconclusive, and you know, they really can't decide. Well, once they knew he'd driven the eight hundred miles, uh, you know, they stopped u looking out on the desert and they they did some searches. They knew that that that the day that Josh met up with Michael and moved the body, Josh drove four hundred miles in one direction and four hundred miles back to the airport, so it gives them a little area there. Now, Chuck has sort of taken up, you know, the responsibility in the
mantle for the searches. And and every once in a while he and some volunteers, you know, go and look, go and look at an area. But it's it's hard to say what, you know, where they put her.
Let's fast forward as you do, to twenty and twelve and the child custody hearing and something very very interesting, A psycho sexual evaluation is called for or he'll lose his lose his custody, and so and tell us a little bit about this exam and and the conditions under which he is forced to do this, and tell us a little bit more about this hearing.
Well, this is this is uh, you know, the tipping point for Josh and and for the whole story in that sometime in January of twenty twelve, the information about the pornography on Josh's computer is shared with the Washington State Court system. And Josh and the Coxes are in
this in this custody battle. And so when when the psychiatrist who who is charged with examining Uh Josh and doing an evaluation as far as Josh getting custody back, as soon as he learns about this, that that changes the nature of what he will be talking to Josh about. And the court orders that because of that, that Josh undergo this psychosexual exam and what it means is that he would uh be uh examined, you know, be shown shown photographs to see you know what prompts a reaction
from Josh. And this would you know, be about about sex and and insst sex. But the other thing that really tiped Josh is that he would have to undergo a polygraph for the very first time. It was mandated, and that means he could be asked about Susan. So the at about that point, late January, Josh knew the handwriting was on the wall. He was going to never get custody of the boys.
Now.
I don't think anybody could can explain why that was so important to him, since he wasn't a very good father and and didn't really you know, wanna be a father, but it was it was to win was what was important to him, and to get back at the Coxes. I mean, he really hated them at this point and he he wanted to hurt them and so he began thinking about, you know, some other way out, uh, when he found out he would have to take this exam and take a polograph.
Now you introduce the character Griffin Hall. Tell us who Griffin Hall is in their connection to this sad end chapter.
Oh, well, this is Elizabeth Griffin Hall, who is the caseworker assigned to be at custody visits with Josh and with the concuses. Uh. Anytime the the boys, you know, went back and forth, Uh, she would drive them and she also had to be in their presence uh at all times. She was uh, just she's an incredible woman. You know, she was really highly educated, had a PhD. She had the most you know, the difficult, really difficult child custody cases, you know, very sensitive ones. She really
cared about the boys. They got to know her, they got to trust her. You know, they'd talk about various you know, just lots of different things because she spent you know, quite a bit of a time with them.
And it was that they on February fifth, that she pulled up to the rental house and the boys uh ran ahead of her, and Josh was at the front door, the door open, and the boys ran inside and as kids do, and she was coming up behind them, and he just grinded her and shut and locked the door, and uh, she you know, knocked she she tried to
get Josh's attention. She right away called both her agents who and then as soon as she she could smell gasoline and she backed her car out of the driveway and she called nine one one, And you can read the excruciating interview, Yes, when she's trying to get the attention of nine one one and get them to that house and trying to explain, you know, uh who Josh is and and what's going on. And then uh, the house exploded. And I don't think she's ever gone gone
back to work. It was just a uh a terrible, terrible experience for her. And we know that Josh you know, hit the boys on the head with a hatchet before he blew up the house. I don't know whether he was trying to kill them first or just subduing them, uh before he he but he had you know, thrown gasoline all over the house and and it went up pretty quickly. And uh, he had spent the last few days, so the days be between the hearing when he found out about the cycle. So Uh, so I was a
sexual exam. He'd he'd gone to the bank, he'd closed his accounts, he'd talked to his attorney about something he had told his sister about, you know what bills needed to be paid, and but waiting until that Sunday morning to basically say goodbye in a couple of texts.
Absolutely. Now, of course, everyone, this is a devastating end to this m What did the police find after all of this, and as you we talked about it, what does to this day? What is Chuck Cox? What is his mission?
Well, the police, Uh, Josh had had a storage area and they went through it and basically they just you know, found some things of Susan's and and the couples. They found that he did have this trail if he'd he'd been to the bank. You know, he can see him on the camera. He'd bought a couple of you know, guests tanks and and filled them with gasoline and uh
had done some you know preparation. Uh like that, Chuck uh uh right away, Well, the the police chief from sal from West Valley City, UH came down the next day and sat in the car with Chuck and Uh, Chuck told me that the police chief cried and said, you're you know, you were right, you were right. We we just shouldn't have, you know, let him stay out there.
And so Chuck, there there been a couple of lawsuits and so a I and and then of course a year after Josh killed the boys, the police were looking at Michael because they'd found his car. And then, as you mentioned earlier, Mike Michael, who was in graduate school in Minnesota, uh, jumped off the building and and killed himself. So you know, the dev just this whole family, you know, everybody was just gone. Um, Chuck. There there been a
couple of lawsuits. One was that Josh's mother and two sisters and brother wanted you know, part of the life insurance that Josh and Susan carried, and so that was that was h M you know, involved in coction. And they finally they finally settled and and kind of split things. But there's also a a lawsuit Chuck and Judy have have sued uh a d d SHS in Washington State that uh that the children were not protected in the way they should have been when they were in frostrct care.
And that's been that's been denied once and then they're appealing that, and I think that's still in the appeal process as far as I know. Everybody's still trying to crack Josh's UH. One of Josh's computers was so encrypted that the FBI couldn't couldn't break through it, and so they're wondering, you know what, I I don't know. I it's a different computer then the tune porn was on,
but but they're still working on that. And then everybody thought, you know, Steve Powell was the last person alive to who might know where Susan was. And he served a prison term for the voyeurism of the photos of the little girls, and then also uh went to trial finally for pornography and served a prison term. He was paroled in two thousand seventeen, and this July had a heart attack and died. And you know, I've never really bought the argument that he knew what his sons had done
to Susan and where she was. And because he had such a such a big mouth, he was just such a loose cannon. I don't think they confided in him. That's just my little theory of having spent years, you know on this case. I I don't think they would have confided in him because he he couldn't stop talking
or write or writing in his journals. I Uh, he might've learned eventually what happened, but I don't think he died, you know, with this secret and U but they've had time to go through his whatever, you know, journals he might've kept the last year of his life. And I haven't heard that anything was was found at all.
So despite maybe people thinking to just bad Apple and uh bad father in the first place, regardless of that, they seem seemed to have completely different motivations regarding Susan. And with that they've concluded that they probably didn't work in tandem with each other to kill her. Is that well?
Initially, initially Steve was you know, everybody considered him a suspect because he and obsessed with Susan. But the police were able to confirm he he was in kewallup uh that weekend when when Susan went missing, So he wasn't he may not have been, you know, instrumental in it. We know Josh talked to him on the phone that day for a long time, but you know, and we haven't talked about that. They did find some evidence in
the house. There was some blood spatter and when the police first climbed through that window and went into the house, there was a wet place on the living room rug with a fan pointed at it, you know, going going a mile a minute and drying something. But there was blood spatter on some tile and still none of that was enough to make an arrest.
Yeah, incredible, And you could see the frustration of Chuckle and Judy along the way too, that there was no arrest. There wasn't an arrest, and he is trying as hard as he can to provide as much information to them, knowing what likely what an investigator needs to be able to make these kinds of arrests, and that that incredible frustration throughout this or the children's safety's daughter's safe for the case.
Who knows about investigations and who whose experience is as a lot of families experiences that, you know, you're they're gonna be the last to know. In a way, mm I families are often the last to know when when something is found or some information is found, or what's going on with the investigation. And I I can understand.
Why.
You know, they talk about the integrity of the investigation and uh, but when you have a uh parents like Chuck and Judy, who you know, they weren't about to go uh sharing it with with people about uh what had been found. I think it was just incredibly uh frustrating for them. And and then to get you know, then the only police report they've ever seen is Redact to.
M you know.
I another thing that was thought about in Washington State. This did not become law, but one of the one of the thoughts that started to go through the legisla legislature is, you know, maybe a parent who is even at an uh unspecific suspect, just in general a suspect not even called a suspect, but let's say, uh a parent whose spouse is missing, maybe they shouldn't have custody here their children. So that was one of the one
of the laws that was was looked at. But uh, I think the idea that that and we've seen this in other cases, that the somebody suffers when when the goal is family reunification, often, yeah, it's the children who suffer. I mean maybe that's not always the the.
Yeah, absolutely, it's hard to work on.
A story not like this and not come up with uh you know, uh your own opinion and my you know, I I like to write a book that the the reader's gonna make up their mind. They're they're smart, they're gonna put tune two together and and yeah, you know, figure out what was going on here. But it was just, uh so, such an incredible tragedy. And I I will say also quickly, I like I like stories working on books, Dan, that are more about than just the crime. You know,
the crime is the end of the story. I I wanted to know who these people were, and I wanted to know, you know, who Josh was, and and found I found friends of Josh's who had cared about him, you know, before he went over to the dark side or whatever you wanna call it. And you know, I we got criticism because there's a family portrait on the cover of If I Can't Have You and Josh with
his arm around the boys and Susan. People said, well, why should Josh be on the cover, Well, he was a member of this family and the book is about
the family. And I really tried to find out, you know, who who is Josh and you know why had people you know, liked him early on, and what happened, what happened to this family in this community, that a crime like this would happen, And that also took me back then to Steve Powell's history, as you know, his childhood, that there was a long, long history of dysfunction and Steve and Josh's family. This this just didn't come out of nowhere.
Absolutely, and really we touched on a few things, but there is also included in this interviews with doctor Phil with the family, some really profound information was said that those those interviews and also October sixteen, twenty ten, on Susan's twenty ninth birthday, one hundred and fifty of her favorite colored balloons were released, one hundred and fifty purple balloons. Yes, yeah, it's incredible.
Still remember yeah, and she always will be. I mean, this is you know it on one level, it remains, you know, a mystery. You know, what happened, what happened to her? People would like to know, and then the why, I think, you know, we'll look at for a long long time. You know, what is there to be learned? I think there was a lot to be learned from a case like this. And from you know, two different police departments that really didn't communicate very well.
Absolutely well, I want to thank you very much, Rebecca for coming on and talking about If I can't have you, Susan Power, her mysterious disappearance and the murder of her children. I want to thank you very much for those that might want to take a look at other of your true crime books another of you work. Do you have a website Facebook page? Tell us about that.
Yes, yes, very much. The website is Rebecca Tmorris dot com and I'm on Facebook. And incidentally, there are a couple of television documentaries about the Susan Powell case coming up in the next few weeks that one of them I was involved with. And so I do a lot on Investigation Discovery Channel about cases, and so people can always check out what's going on on Investigation Discovery too.
Absolutely again, I want to thank you very much.
I'm not paid to plug them.
Yeah, well, it's just another I think a lot of people will take this, They will read the book. They'll also look for all kinds and I know this, people will look for all kinds of other supplementary information because they just can't get enough of this incredible story, and you've really spurned their interest in this incredible case.
And if I can, I think it's a really I'm really proud of the book. Of the eight books I've done. I think it's just it's you know, pretty up to date, except for Steve Powell dying suddenly a couple of months ago, but it's it's very solid. And it was you know, three years of research and interviews and going to the places and talking to everybody, and you know, and driving out into the desert all by myself to see, well,
what's it, what's it like out there? You have to go too, You have to go to these places to be able to write about them.
Absolutely well, I'm so sure glad that you did, and you did the incredible work that you have. Thank you very much for a great interview. I hope to speak to you again soon.
Good night, gave meet by