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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening. As a child, I was known as Jessica Pelly. When I was nine, I went to a sleepover at a friend's house for
the weekend. While I was away, my entire family was murdered. I would spend the next thirty years fighting, crawl, and clywing my way through the darkness. This wasn't just a national news headline, a cold case, or a true crime show. It was my family and my life. I was the broken little girl left behind To tell this story, I am now Jesse in the pages of this unapologetic memoir set Free. The book that we're featuring this evening is I Am Jessica, A survivor's powerful story of healing and hope.
With my special guest, Jesse Toroanjo and author Jamie Collins. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for a greened Iness interview. Jamie Collins, thank.
You so much.
Thank you.
Before we start, and not to get ahead of ourselves at all, because we're going to have we take this. We want to take this audience right back to nineteen eighty nine and well before that, to talk about your family. Jesse, tell us how you Jamie and Jesse are related, your cousin and so let's get that how you how are you related?
We are well and.
This is Jamie. We're cousins and my mom Marla is the sister of her dad Ed who they were siblings.
Okay, great, now, Jesse, let's go back to when you were Jessica and talk about your dad Ed and your your mom Dawn. And take us back to before you got moved to Indiana. Tell us about the your family background. Take us way back.
Well, we moved around a lot. I was born in Adrian, Michigan. And then my sister Jane I was born in Blosfield and my sister Jolie even we moved to Toledo, Ohio, and that's where she was born and that's where we lived until I was five. My dad had a lot of different jobs. I mean, I couldn't really tell you exactly what they were because I was so young, but I do remember I'm working on cars, hunting and fishing
with him, stuff like that. So you know, I remember all that and I was happy at that point.
Now, your sisters are very close in age, you said, Janelle, and pardon me, or their sister and tell us their ages in relation to yours.
Well, my sister Jane was a year younger than me, just over a year, and then our sister Joline was three years younger than me.
Right now, what happens to your dad? You don't know really the circumstances, But I mean, what happens to your father at a young age.
He died of carbon monoxide. They said he was working on a truck, and I don't really know all the details. So you know, we went to church and came home and he was gone.
Right, So where were you living at that time? And what happens with your mother? And how does she meet a man named Bob?
We lived in Tuledo, Ohio at that point still, and I'm not really sure how she met Bob. I do believe it was through one of his cousins that lived in that vicinity. But I was so young, I didn't really get to see how they met or anything.
Now you're you say, you're you're right at you're six years old when your mom has met Bob and they talk about moving to Florida. What's the reason for the move to Florida, And, as you write in the book, well, what were your feelings about Bob and the move and your dad dying? Tell us about all those feelings at that young age.
Well, I was very angry, you know that I was gonna try to have to have new dad. I didn't want a new dad. I wanted my dad. Being six years old, you don't really have the comprehension, you know, about death or anything. So for me, it was just a whirlwind. You know, my dad was gone and then all of a sudden, this this new guy is here, and I'm supposed to look at him as my dad. So when we had to move to Florida because that's where Bob's house was, I'm not sure why we chose
to go there, but that's where we went. So but yeah, I was very angry.
And what was what was Bob's occupation took you to Florida.
At that point, I don't really know. I'm not sure exactly what he did.
Okay, now let's talk about the the move to Indiana. You were, you were in Florida, you're staying in Florida. But with that as well, Bob has children, So tell us about that meeting and what are their names and what was their ages in relation to you and.
Your There was Jeff, who was his oldest and he's eight years older than me. And then there was Jackie and I think she's four years older than me. But you know, Jackie, I just you know, she was cordial. You know, we didn't really like hang out, hangout or anything. But Jeff didn't like me right off the bat. You know, he had just they had just lost their mom too, so you know, I think it was just a bunch
of anger when we all had to get together. There were a couple of instances where you know, I was terrified he We went camping in the backyard, me, Jackie and then my two sisters, and you know, this guy came in the tent and pulled me out and you know, threatened to throw me in the pool that we had and then we went and said and I was, I was terrified, like I said, and you know, he put me on the counter and then took off the ski
mask and it was jess Wow. So yeah, I mean, I don't know if he just thought he was being funny or if he was really trying to terrify me, but you know, I was, you know. And then another instance, I was in the tub and he pretended they're all blow dryer in there with me. So it was just stuff like that, where to me it wasn't normal prankster stuff it you know, I was very scared.
Right now, Jamie, you're the related to Jesse. Again, without jumping ahead or giving anything away, what are you doing around this time? I mean, what is your age difference between Jesse and what is your what is your career path, what are you moving towards? What are you doing around at the same time in parallel with your cousin.
Yeah, I am three years older than Jesse Jessica at the time, and at that point, I mean, we were both just young kids, and so my dad was in the military. He was a helicopter pilot. We lived in Germany for about seven years of my childhood. So Jessica and I knew one another, but we were kind of distant. We weren't around one another a lot, but we were cousins and we did obviously love one another. It was more of a distant relationship.
Right now, Jesse, let's get back to talking about your friend as well. Her name is Stephanie, and the kinds of things that Stephanie. Again, Jamie, you do these interviews and get the take from these people many years later, but back at that time, Stephanie witnessed sort of the dynamic that was your new family. This new family would
new siblings and a new dynamic. And as you've written in the book, Jamie, but Jesse, tell us about you, remember, and Stephanie got to witness in terms of Jeff's acceptance of your mother and you accepting Bob as your father, sort of the dynamic that you present in the book. What was that that family dynamic at that time.
Well, Bob was a disciplinarian, so you know, I got spankings, stuff like that. We couldn't talk in church because he was a pastor. You know, we just had to present ourselves in a certain way, and if we didn't, you know, got in trouble. Jeff and my mom did not get along at all. So yeah, other than that, I mean, it just wasn't like the happy little family that it could have been.
Throughout this book, Jamie, you picked a certain way of telling this incredible story, and as you write there, it's many many years later that you create you connect and become close as cousins and eventually very very close friends and beyond. Tell us about the construction of the book in terms of how you interestingly and very effectively laid this out, in terms of introducing characters that are important much later on to tell their story of that time
in nineteen eighty nine. In fact, we have to mention too that this is a very important date, April twenty eighth, as the book is released tomorrow officially April twenty ninth, and that is we are going to be talking about April twenty ninth, nineteen eighty nine for quite a bit of this interview. So tell us a little bit about that the layout of this very very effective but very interesting way to tell this incredible story.
Sure well, I don't know that initially that I set out necessarily to do what we ended up doing with the book, But I would interview jesse and the other people that appear in the book oh by phone extensively, and as they would tell me their stories, I would
just kind of start writing the pieces of it. And it was really interesting to me that, you know, we started this twenty seven twenty seven years after this, that the exact people that would be able to help us paint the story the way that we did would be the ones in her life. So her best friend Stephanie was in her life and was willing to talk to us, her mom, her best friend Mona was in her life
and willing to help us with this. And so, for instance, at the time that I interviewed Stephanie, I did not realize that she was such a key part of learning about what happens on April twenty ninth. So I just really wanted to show each person as what they saw, what they felt, what they thought, and to really kind of immerse people into the experience of what this was for these people back then.
Right now in this book. And I guess you could answer this to Jamie, is that there's something in Jessica's life involving the grandmother. About three weeks before this Faithful Day of April twenty, nineteen eighty nine, Jesse's Jessica's mother Don travels to Michigan to visit former mother in law Gail, and in that there's some telling conversations what is said to Gail and what is convert what is expressed in that conversation that visit.
Yeah, I'm going to tell you what I was told through Mona because she's who I interviewed for that portion of the book, her mom's best friend. But basically Mona and Gail had met with Jessica's mom Don, and she had kind of alluded to having some I guess marital difficulties, just trouble with the blended family, that everybody wasn't getting along, and I think Jeff and Jessica were kind of at the forefront of that they each had lost a parent
was still very angry, kind of rebellious about it. But ultimately Don would kind of share that she didn't necessarily feel safe with Jeff in the house. And I don't know that she felt personally threatened or that her family was threatened, but I think she feared that Jeff could possibly do something to harm himself, that that's where she felt he was at that time, So there was talk
of there being a gun in the house. There was talk about Don having concerns about everyone not getting along, but that's about all that they know at that time. So to Gail and Mona, I think it was just kind of a normal conversation you would have, like everybody has troubles. Blended families aren't easy, and that at the time is what they took it for.
Right now, Jesse, as you write in the book, you take the reader and now our audience to April twenty eighth, nineteen eighty nine. It's a Friday, and what are the plans that you have for this weekend that also include your sister? Why is this weekend important and special to you? Tell us about what are the plans and what happens on April twenty eighth, nineteen eighty nine.
Actually it was the twenty seventh. I was supposed to go to a friend's house with my sister for the whole weekend. And I had walked in my mom's room where she was she was in the bathroom, and you know, to tell her goodbye, and she informed me that my sister was not going. So I tried to argue with her and she just gave me the look and I just kind of backed off. So I went to my friend's house out my sister, and.
You weren't you weren't You weren't pleased about this, but you went to have now this friend. It's very interesting too that later we'll we'll see the relevance of this for this book. You could not remember that young girl's name? Is that correct? No?
Yep, yep, I couldn't remember anything about her.
Wow, very interesting. Now what about that? You do remember something about that night at your friend's house? Was it peaceful? Was it a good night? Wasn't a fun night for you?
I mean, I obviously don't remember. I don't remember any of that. I wish I could, but it's my mind blocked out for some reason. So but Sunday, you know, my friend's mom came to drop me off at home, and you know, we pulled in and there was crime scene tape around the house and all the church people outside.
Police officers were everywhere. So I thought maybe my dog had died or something happened to him, and I, uh, the police officer came to my friend's mom's window and had her get out, and I saw that she had just started crying, and you know, I knew something something had happened, but wasn't sure. What you know, in a nine year old mind, you don't. You can't think of the most extreme thing happening. So I uh, she came around and opened my door and told me that my
whole family was gone. So it was I. I just cried, cried and cried. I couldn't even comprehend what that all actually meant.
Now, Jamie, just to pick up this, there was talk that Jeff was going to a prom that night, and I don't know if we're maybe we're maybe we'll just leave that in terms for it for this audience to discover. H But Jamie, tell us what the police find at that crime scene.
The police fined the body of Bob Pelly in the hallway with two shotgun wounds, one to the chest and one right beneath the chin and neck area. They would find Jesse's mom and two sisters in the basement to kind of huddled in a circle formation, all shot point blank range with a shotgun. Interestingly, the entire house was locked up, curtains and blinds were drawn. Nothing appeared to
be stolen, and so for that reason. It seems the detective spewed it to be an inside job based on the crime scene, and then later some things would happen, and based on behaviors and actions, it would point them in a certain direction.
You right, Jamie, that there's an interesting set of circumstances that occur, and terming with a forensic pathologist, I believe at least it's in the neighborhood. And the very interesting and very important issue that happens. The time of death is not determined at that time. There's not, as you write, they not the proper test to determine that. Again, which obviously our audience would be aware that that would be problematic.
Later tell us a little bit more about what they see at this cream crime scene or don't see the robbery. These talk about an inside job, So what do you police know immediately in relation to that inside job? Who is the suspect?
Yeah, so they do suspect fairly early on. It to be her stepbrother, who was seventeen years old at the time. The last doubt that he was seen wearing while the family was alive was in the washer, spun clinging to the drum, and it was jeans and a shirt and two pairs of socks. That was the only thing in there. So for a family with that many people, it's just a very unusual load of laundry to be in there.
He would ultimately show up to meet his girlfriend and friends late to go out to dinner, and he would be carrying his tucks when he arrived, which was unusual. You would assume that his dad and Don would have taken pictures of him going to the prom. That obviously didn't occur. And I think mostly it's Jeff's own words, behaviors, and actions that really lend themselves to putting the spotlight on him initially, and as the case moves forward.
We'll get back to that behavior and also the issue of behavior surrounding his prized Mustang vehicle. At the same time, Jesse, what are you told about other than that initial that your family has gone. What are you told in real terms about suspects or investigation or anything in relation to that. What are you told at that time? What do you know?
I'm I knew nothing at that time. It was a hush hush thing, you know, couldn't really talk about it. Everybody from that point of my life was cut off from me, So I really knew nothing besides what I had kind of conjured up in my own head.
And what was that.
Well, I thought that my stepdad had killed my mom and sisters and then killed himself.
Now with that conclusion and then coupled with again this upheaval in your life, to say the least, and this you already had the anger towards Bob and some anger towards your mother from uprooting you. Who do you go live with and what's your behavior? Like?
I lived with a bunch of different people, But I initially went to my mom's dad's house, my grandfather. I was only there a short while when they said I should probably go live with my aunt, who had three small children. They thought maybe that would help me. So I went there. I just acted out. I didn't know
how to deal with my feelings. I used to cut just to get the internal feelings not gone, but to where I wouldn't have to feel so stuff like that, I just, you know, very rebellious, and I just didn't know what to do. And I was, you know, no one could help me at that point.
Right now, Jamie, you take us in the book to at the beginning of the book, a very profound visual scene. Friend Stephanie, mutual friend Stephanie, Jessica and yourself are at this incredible funeral. Jamie tell us about that funeral.
It's a really hard thing to put into words, and I had a hard time writing that chapter to get it to truly be what it was for us. But you have to realize that we were three young girls and this was by no means a normal funeral of any kind. And for you to kind of understand it, you have to realize that we were at a funeral in the church where Bob Pelly used to minister, and there were four caskets at the front of that for him, his wife in the two little girls, ages six and eight.
And this was the type of a room where, you know, usually grown ups to hold it together, especially if they're around kids, or to not cry, and this was so deep with grief and hurting. People were literally crying and audibly sobbing and wailing into the air. And it's what I remember the most is the church hymns because they just seemed so off compared to where we were sitting, so hearing them sing like the song Amazing Grace scarred
me for life. I learned to hate that song from that experience, So it was just even the detectives were completely shaken. You can tell from things that were written later that no family should have to sit and sing Amazing Grace the way that we did, so it was horrible.
Right now, back to this investigation. You talk about the police, it's an inside job. There's no robbery motive. The police find out what about the arrangement with as you said, Jesse, the disciplinarian Bob, your stepdad, what is the arrangement with his son, the prom and the mustang?
He was not allowed to drive the mustang. His dad was going to take him to bron and then bring him back home. He wasn't supposed to attend the after activities or.
Anything like that.
You're right also that the father ensured that he wouldn't be taking this mustang by disabling it physically and also canceling the insurance for six months, so he was not going to relent for this. Right now, what do the police also find out in this investigation in terms of again with motive? Jeff had said to other students regarding the mustang and his appearance at the prom.
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We're prohibited by long eighteen plus terms and conditions applying see website for details. He had told friends about a week prior to the prom that he had a two day pass from Pelley Prison I believe was his exact wording, but that he would be able to drive to the prom,
but not to say anything about it. So that obviously what a lot of speculation upon just that statement to friends, and he did in fact drive the Mustang, which was not ensured, not only to the prom but also to Great America the following day.
And Great America is is what for audience is that it's.
An amusement park.
Now with this, you would think again, many people would read this, maybe listen to this and go, well, when are they going to make this arrest? What happens with this investigation? When's the arrest? What is there arrest? Why isn't there a Yeah?
So interestingly, I was twelve years old at the time that this occurred, and I was the eldest grandchild, and so they told me a lot of adult things. So I knew early on that they had suspected Jeff. That we were told that it was strictly a circumstantial case, and they had quite a bit of evidence that pointed to Jeff that they really wanted the murder weapon because back in nineteen eighty nine, I mean, you don't have
DNA evidence and all of that. Really they didn't do the time of death testing, which kind of cut both ways depending which side of the family you were on. So they really wanted the murder weapon to bring the case. So ultimately the case goes cold for thirteen years, so it's completely cold and there's no justice or closure.
Now back to you, Jesse, of course, this is you know, the mythical or the supposed recovery that you were supposed to have. What's happening in your life? And when what year do you reconnect and give us the circumstances that you reconnect with your step brother Jeff. Again, what do you know at that time? Tell us about that the circumstances are reconnecting. Tell us about that.
Well, at that time, I still thought it was my stepdad and I was living in a foster home with my foster mom at the time, and he called me and said, you know, do you want to come visit in Florida? And I was like, okay, think anything of it. So I went down there, and you know, he asked me, who do you think did it and I was like, your dad. So, you know the time there, you know, we spent time together, but then after, you know, we kind of lost touch and never really never really saw
him again. So, you know, I think at that point me thinking it was his dad was a good thing at that time.
When he asked you, you as writ in the book, it as soon as you get there for this, you know, this reunion. He asked you, so, hey, who do you think? Who do you think did this? And you respond, well, I think it was your dad. And he doesn't say anything anymore, does he?
No, No, it was just kind of dropped and I didn't think anything of it. You know, you probably did want to know. In my mind too, I thought it did it so and I, you know, like I said, nobody told me they's suspicion. So he wasn't even on my raider at that point.
Incredible. Tell us Jesse about the day that you get a knock on your door. Yeah.
I was twenty three and detective knocked on my door, and you know, I asked if they could come in, and they had news about the case, and I was like okay, so I let him in, and you know, they asked me, you know, who do you think did it? And I said, well, my stepdad, and they looked at me and they said, there's no possible way it was him. And I was like, oh, you know, so they told me he was shot twice. There's no way you can't do a murder suicide and shoot yourself twice. So then
my mind was reeling, like it was. I didn't even know what to think at that point. And then they're like, well, you know, there could there be anybody else? And I said, well, you know, just that's who came to my mind right away. Yeah, just because of his behaviors. You know, he was quick to violence. You know, I remember being on a school bus and you know, he just walked up and punched a kid in the face. You know, most people don't just do that right off the bat.
You know, right now, with this revelation, tell us Jamie, when you and Jesse are reconnect and on those circumstances.
It was probably about five or six years ago and I came across her profile on Facebook. I think we might have had a family member in common, and pop was this lady with hot pink care and her name and I immediately know that it's Jessy, and it was this really cool feeling because it's like, Wow, she made it is what you think, And I don't know what her life looked like, or what had happened to her or where she lived.
That it was.
We basically started talking on Facebook Messenger a little bit, but I kind of kept my distance because I think, you know, socially, it's awkward when you have something like this in between you and someone else, even if it's just a normal death, Like if you knew a lady lost her husband, do you mention the husband?
Do you not?
And so it was that type of a situation. And at one point I had read another true crime book written about this, and I was just like, I don't care how she takes it. I just have to send her an email and tell her that I acknowledge what happened to her and I don't know what her whole life looks like, but that I wanted to be there for her and be not just her cousin but a friend.
And in that you are the first person that she divulges that she shares in six months, you say of talking her story for the very first time, unburdened, given to someone else, shared with someone else. It's it's the first person Jesse that you share this week, isn't it.
Yes? I mean other people knew, you know, details of it, but I never really got deep down to what it was really like for me.
Well, And I think the interesting part of it is if we had just if I was just like, tell me about your life randomly, she would have stopped at the points where she would stop telling normal people. But because we decided to do this together, there were no boundaries between us. Nothing was off limits, So I didn't have to stop at the socially appropriate lines. I could be like, no, tell me what it really was like, what really happened? How did you really feel? And normally
you wouldn't be able to do that. So I think that's what really gave us the depths that I think that this book has, and kind of the raw quality.
Tell us the genesis of this book idea. Didn't that wasn't your initial purpose when you contacted Jesse, and and of course wasn't Jesse's purpose when she reconnected with you? So tell us the genesis this book idea project. Yeah.
So, as I said, I had sent her that email and she took it really well I think she always wanted someone to kind of come back and claim her and acknowledge her, and so it was good I had sent it. And we spent probably like two years just getting to know one another. We'd talk on the phone, message back and forth, we watched television shows together, and at one point I think we were just so comfortable with one another. I was like, you know, if you ever wanted to tell your story, you would have one
heck of a story to tell. But you have to realize at that point, I don't even know where her story really is. And she's like, yeah, I know, but I don't think I could talk to a stranger about my life. And I was like, well, could you talk to me? And she said that she thought that she could, and I was you have to realize that I've never written a book before. I had in no way thought of doing this with her or for her, and so it was just kind of the spontaneous, organic thing that happens.
And we get off the phone that night, and probably five minutes later, she texts me and says, let's do it. So first I'm really excited, but then there's like this snee jerk reaction behind it of holy crap, Like, I don't even know if I can do this. I don't know if I can write a book. So I had told her, just let me try to write one chapter, and if I can write the one chapter, then I'll know that I can do this. And I wrote the next chapter at lunch during my day at the law firm,
and the rest is kind of history. We just did it.
Let's go to Jesse. Interestingly, as this is all happening or roundabouts this time. As we mentioned before, people like Mona, your friends, Stepny, important people come to the forefront, reconnect with you via email, and then ye further, he'll tell us a little bit about how interesting that is that, like Jamie had mentioned, all the important people that could tell this story most effectively come back in your life.
Yeah, I call her my sister, Stephanie. When she reached out to me, I didn't remember her, so, but I was touched that someone who knew me before wanted to actually get to know me and wanted to see me. So I cried and I told her, I said, I don't remember you, but you know we can talk. So it was just right after that point I felt the connection with my family that I didn't have because nobody else would talk to me. So you know, we ended up getting together and from then on, you know, we've
been very close. And then Mona, you know, I call her my aunt Mona, she reached out to me. You know, the same feeling. I was just touched that someone actually wanted to talk to me and you know, be there for me. So and the same feeling when Jamie reached out. You know, I cried every time someone reached out to me, and it was the most amazing feeling that they chose to have a relationship with.
Me, Jamie. Let's get back to this cold case investigation and the people responsible for this and what are they armed with now that will help them be able to prosecute this case effectively that they weren't before. What's new and what's their idea?
Yeah, So, as I said, it's thirteen years later, cold case for thirteen years and the detective knock on Jess's she said, and tell her they're going to be arresting her stepbrother Jeff. And interestingly, one of the unique things I think about this situation is that they don't really have new evidence per se, and they're not going to have DNA evidence, because this was back in nineteen eighty nine. But I think this was the type of case that
just haunts people forever. Obviously it haunted our family, it haunted anyone who knew the Pellies, and I think it truly haunted the detectives, the community, that church. It's the kind of thing where if you ask anybody in Lakeville, they all know this story and exactly how old they were and kind of where they were at the time in life. So I think they just felt like, we either bring it now or we're not going to bring it,
and we have to take a shot at it. And so they still had strictly circumstantial evidence, but it was kind of a mountain of circumstantial evidence and they still to this day. I mean, they never had the murder weapon. They just went ahead and brought the case forward.
Yeah, you talk about as unusual too, with the right through a speedy trial. So we talk about the rest in August tenth, two thousand and two, and they rest Jeff at an airport. He's coming back from Australia business trip to Australia. He's thirty one years old at that time. He's working for IBM doing something but he's successful. It is in Florida with his wife and son, and this
is all over the newspapers. You talk about this timeline when we mentioned earlier on in this it's a problem for the prosecution in terms of that timeline of when this family was murdered, isn't it.
Well? I think it cuts both ways. The defense like to point to the timeline and say it wasn't possible. But I think if you take your average person, if you had a plan to do something like this, and you knew, I'm going to go take the shotgun and I'm going to go shoot these four people, I don't really think it takes as long as you might think that it would, because you'd have to go back, they may fight back. I mean, you really have to do this.
And he did pick up all the shotgun shells in the house and close the curtains and blinds, which was very unusual for the parsonage. And I think that the window he makes a call to his then girlfriend, I think twenty two minutes after the last time that they've seen the family alive. So you have to believe that in twenty two minutes that he's done the three things that he shot them, picked up the shotgun shells, obviously, grabbed his tucks, and closed the curtains and windows, locked the doors.
It it takes a further four years be able to get him to actual trial. July twelve, two thousand and six. It's seventeen years after this, after the murder, and Jesse, it's your day in court. You have to go testify. You have to see this person again, Jeff, and we glossed over the effect of these deaths and your non family afterwards, and all the psychological effects that came with that.
So where are you in terms of psychologically instability or non stability and at the time that they ask you to testify at this trial.
Well, when I was thirteen fourteen, I just pushed what happened to me down differently, like I was starting over, and I became this happy, go lucky person, you know, never really thought about it again. So I detected myself. So I was able to get through all those years. Had I felt it emotionally, I probably wouldn't have. So going to trial, I mean, I was scared, but I didn't have all the other emotions with it because I
had detached myself a long time before that. Even came, so, like I said, I was scared to see him again. I was scared to go into the courtroom. But you know, I knew I had to do the right thing.
What was the trial like for you? You had a brief appearance. What did you speak?
Yeah, I.
Spoke to the prosecuting attorney and that was pretty much it. I didn't I wasn't there for the trial. I just did what I had to do and then left. So but yeah, while I was there, people were like, well, who are you? And I was like, well, I'm the sister, this writing sister, and they're like, oh, well, we didn't realize. So it was just kind of like whoa, you know, because I just didn't do a whole lot of interviews or anything growing up. And but yeah, it was. It
was definitely difficult. I mean, say the least.
Needless to say, three days of deliberation. I will summarize this case. What was the outcome at that time? October two thousand and two thousand and six.
He was found guilty and got forty years for every murder, so he got hundred sixty years in prison.
Incredible. Now, Jamie, with this, you write about further developments in this case, obviously he has ability to appeal. What is your job once this trial is finished and putting this all this information together.
And for this book, well, I always tell me what it was a really big story to take on because I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a therapist, and that's involved so much legal and mental health issues that it was really a challenge for me. But I was fascinated in talking to her because, as I said, I didn't know her story. So it's like, we all know he's convicted, but we don't necessarily follow her life after
that either to know what's happened. And so when he appeals, she's kind of left held in that process with him because this is the guy who's killed her family. He's appealing to try to get out of prison. What's that like for her? Like, that's really a crazy space to be in. And so the first leg of the appeal, Jeff wins and he may get his freedom, and so she's then freaking out thinking, oh my gosh, he's going to get led out of prison. And this is a period of years of her life that she's kind of
held in abeyance like that. Ultimately, the Indiana Supreme Court would uphold the conviction, but to walk with someone in real time into their real life and the things she felt and thought and worried about.
It was just a very.
Interesting experience for me because we usually just here on TV someone was convicted or there was an appeal, but we don't look at what that means for the people involved. And so we really tried to show that in the book.
Right now, Jesse, where are you in your personal life? You talk about all of the things the love's lost, but also the loves that you find in your life. You have children, Where are you at after this trial? And you talk about a pivotal moment in your life where everything, I guess catches up with you. Tell us about that.
Yes, I have two children, Cold and Austin comn Is nineteen and eighteen. And then I have my husband tyson, and a few years ago I had lost a close friends of a family to see, Yeah, she was twenty three. So I took that very hard. I hadn't dealt with death since my family, so I wasn't like I just kind of was downspiraling down, spiraling. I could feel myself and I just couldn't stop it. And then my husband was in the hospital, so that added to it. Yeah,
I had a week just her care. I don't remember half the stuff that was going on, So yeah, I ended up admitting myself to save myself.
You found a good therapist, you call him in the book. You referred to him as the man. You say that it's not overnight, but you also show the reality that you know, with your husband's insurance, construction insurance, it's reasonable rates for this, you know's what's called for a couple therapy sessions a week. But when your husband's insurance lapses,
we're talking about prohibitive costs for your necessary mental health. Yes, But in terms of this book, I guess it's obviously it's over use this cathartic qualities or abilities to be able with this book. But I think if there ever is a book that would be able to be or you know, effective for you in terms of doing something positive for you, what was the process of writing this book? What did it mean for you to be able to get this down in print and have this book released?
I mean, for me, it was like I said, a lot of people knew pieces of my life, but nobody knew the whole thing. And I think you know, Jamie writing this book with me helped me out therapeutically. You know, it was like a weight lifted off. It was finally going to be out there. And you know, for me, it's it's going to help a lot of people that are in the same place that I was in and I had nobody. You know, people tried, but if you've never been through it, it's hard to help someone through that.
You know, you don't even know where to start. So for me, this book is hopefully going to help a lot of people that may not know, you know, how to get help, or people around people that have been through something like this. It will help them to understand maybe what the other person might be going through and what they can say to them or how to try to get them help.
You included this book very interestingly Jamie letters that Jesse would have liked to write Jeff, and then we haven't mentioned Jackie at all. Tell us Jamie about the letter that Jesse would have wrote to Jackie and what the contents would have been, but also what Jackie's response was to her stepbrother being suspected and then charged and then convicted.
Yeah, so Jackie is Jeff's biggest champion as his sister. She believes that he's innocent and did not do the murders. So it's kind of a very divided family in that way, and you have Jackie and Jeff on one side and you have Jesse on the other. And it's when you look back at how the family was blended to begin with, in kind of two separate families, that's what we have
today with guilt versus innocence. And so I think, as you said, the book was cathartic for her, and it was kind of like, if you have anything that you want to say to either one of them, this was the time and place. And so we just sat down and talked about it and talked about how she felt, and it kind of took her a little while to
figure out exactly what that was. Because you hold the sin for thirty years, it's hard to think of what would I say if I could so, so I think she shared very openly and honestly, and it's very raw and real and very much her truth. And it's not an easy thing to write a letter to a killer like her stepbrother is a killer. That's who she wrote that letter to. It's just it's a very unusual situation.
Yes, and what I what exactly would she want to say to her brother if she could step brother.
I think she just wants him to know that she knows that we all know, and that we all see him for what he is and for what he's done. And that doesn't make him Jeffrey Dahmer or the worst person on earth, but it makes him the murderer of their family. And I think as much as she's hidden the truth of who she was and what had happened to her, in his own way, he's kind of done the same thing. So this was just her chance of saying I acknowledge you and I acknowledge myself at the same time.
Is it interesting? It's not certainly fitting. But is it interesting that he becomes fairly successful and puts this incredibly behind him, these murders of the entire family, little children behind him. What can you deduce from that?
I do think it's interesting if you talked to Jesse about it. Obviously she had bad experiences with him, and he did bully her and engage in some kind of unusual behaviors with her. But as we said, it doesn't make him a serial killer. It doesn't make him, you know, Ted Bundy. But that doesn't mean that a boy at seventeen years old can't be so self focused or wanting to attend a prompt so badly, or wanting his dad not to, you know, not allow him to do the things he wants to do that he can't go and
make one really stupid, really violent, really bad choice. And I don't think that that means he couldn't go be successful or that he couldn't go have a family. But you have to own what you did. So I think sometimes people stanup. Sometimes situations kind of a ligne and things get out of control and it all just is kind of what it is.
What you say, though, is it sounds like I know you're not excusing it, and then certainly Jesse will not excuse this, but it sounds like a fit of rage. But when you look at telling everyone that he is going to go to this prom there's an incredible amount of premeditation, it seems, in this murder of the entire family.
Yeah, there is. And I think we both are very much of the mindset that Jeff is guilty and Jeff did do this. And I think when I was looking at writing the book, the thing that always point to Jeff's guilt for Jeff, and what I mean by that is it's Jeff's words, it's Jeff's behaviors, and it's just actions. That's what A pointed them at Jeff, That's what ultimately
convicted him. And I know that may not be easy for his sister Jackie to hear or to live with, and it's not easy for Jesse to live with either. I mean, this is affected the way that she views families, the way that she views relationships, the way that she's able to trust people, or to go out in public and not be fearful someone could snap. As a nine year old, this really just rocked her world and it continued to kind of bleed over as she got older.
Absolutely, he Jeff proclaims he's innocent to this day, but that's would be a purpose to that because he still has a faint hope of any redemption on this, but not much, not much because he has his appeals have been denied, so he has little recourse left, doesn't he.
He does, He's basically on the very last it's kind of like a hail Mary approach is where he's at now. So he's through the formal appeals process, the part where he really could have been formally let out, and now it's kind of the Hail Mary pass at the end.
I mentioned earlier on that this is a very important anniversary with it being April twenty eighth from this broadcast. Not everyone will listen to this obviously today live, but they'll be listening to it in the future. There was always difference in you Jesse at this time, and I guess it'll be a different now.
Yeah. No, the ten years always the hardest for me. Normally I would just pre time nothing happened, and this time of year every year for the past thirty years, I let myself cry and think about it and wonder. You know, in this past year, I actually kept my feelings open all year long. So this year is a little bit different for me. It's still hurts and I'll still miss them.
But.
You know, some good will come out of this finally. Yeah. So yeah, I mean it's it's definitely a difficult time for me emotionally.
Tell us about plans for this book. I know it's to be released tomorrow officially. Tell us if you are you ready Jesse for this are you are going to You're going to accompany Jamie or are you ready for the public.
I mean, I'm a little nervous, to be honest, but I think ultimately me coming forward, people will see the strengths in that, and that will encourage them to do the same thing. You know, it just takes one person to make a choice like that, and you know other people will follow. I think it will help a lot of people and you know, give them strengths that they didn't really they even had.
Jamie, you talked to Jesse at the genesis of this book at the beginning of this and said, you asked, why after all this time, why Jesse wanted to write this book? Why Jessica tell us about these duality this d d as well what that means and in his relation to this story Jesse, Jessica and what she said to you as in terms of the why why now why this book?
Okay? Well as far as the did that is dissociate of identity disorder. It used to be known as multiple personality disorder. And I know people always think of like Sybil when they hear that, but this actually happens to people a lot more commonly than they may think. And for jess and Jessica. It was basically at nine years old. Your brain is not fully formed emotionally at that age, and if you're under ten and have a severe trauma, this type of thing really takes root and affects you
in a major way. So basically, Jessica, her childhood self kind of splits off emotionally from the person that she has to become to be able to move past this tragedy. And she doesn't even know she's doing it. She doesn't know she's separated those two pieces of herself, but she truly did. And it's probably around age I think, like thirteen seventh grade. She starts dyeing her hair different colors and trying to have friends and boyfriends and be happy.
And it's really her stepping forward to find a way she can live in the world because she can't live as sad Jessica. And there's a lot of shame associated with Jessica, which was hard for me to kind of understand initially, But people who have something tragic happen at a young age often carry a ton of shame, even
if it's not at all their fault. They feel an immense amount of shame around who they are and so I could definitely hear that, and anytime I would talk to her about her childhood self, she would talk about herself in third person. And it became to the point that we each were more comfortable talking about Jessica in third person because that's just what was comfortable for her. So I'd be like, tell me about Jessica, what did
she like? But I'm really talking to Jessica. So it was just interesting watching her metamorphosis when you look back across the thirty years and realizing what has happened to this person and how much sense it actually makes if you look at what happened to her and how she chooses to carry on. And as you said early on, I was like, why now, Like why thirty years later are we telling the story? Like it was her story to keep and it was her story to tell, But
why now? And I just remember so clearly one day she had said I want people to see me. And the day she said it, she said those words so intense, with such intensity that I was like, what do you mean? Like I can tell that when you say that, it really means something to you, But what does it mean?
Yeah?
And she took me back basically to her family's trial, and she's like, I'm in the hallway for my own family's trial because my whole family's been murdered and people are asking who I am, and when I tell them I'm the one who, like the sister who survived, they don't even know that someone even did. And so I think it's really her identity as a person that she loses at the age of nine. So it was really
just a remarkable She has a remarkable story. She's the most strong, resilient, amazing person I've ever met, and it was just really a sacred honor to try to show all the pieces of her to the world. And I really view this story as being her gift to the world. This is what she was left with, is the story.
I want to thank you both very very much for coming on and talking about this incredible book. I Am Jessica, A survivor's powerful story of healing and hope Jesse Toronjo and author Jamie Collins. For those that might want to take a look at this, is there a website Facebook page? Tell us about that, please, Yeah, we have.
A Facebook page for I Am Jessica's book, and they can find the book both on Amazon, and Barnes and Noble. We've got Kendall version hardback paperback, so they can definitely find us online. We also have a website for the book where they can read an excerpt in some early reviews. It's also under I amjessicabook dot com and we're both on Facebook. We'd love to connect to anyone who wants to know us.
Well, that's fantastic. I want again thank you very much, Jesse Toronjo and Jamie Collins. It has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much and good night.