HUNTING CHARLES MANSON- Caitlin Rother

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nightmare of fear and dread. In the weeks and months that followed, law enforcement faced intense pressure to solve crimes it seemed to have no connection. Finally, after months of dead ends, false leads, and near misses, Charles Manson and members of his family were arrested. The bewildering trials that followed once again captured the nation and forever secured Manson

as a byword for the evil that men do. Drawing upon deep archival research and exclusive personal interviews, including unique access to manson family parole hearings, former federal prosecutor in Fox News legal analyst Lis Wheel has written a propulsive, page turning historical thriller of the rhymes and manhunt that mesmerized the nation, and in the process she reveals how the social and political context that gave rise to Manson

is eerily similar to our own. The book that we're featuring this evening is Hunting Charles Manson, The Quest for Justice in the Days of Helter Skelter, with my special guest Liz Wheel and Kitlyn Rother. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for greeting this interview. Liz Wheel and Kitlyn Rother.

in nineteen seventy four. So there's been many, many years since then that you know, much new information has come out, and so Lisa and I wanted to advance this story as much as we could and use new information to not only go over what people thought they knew from before, but to also introduce new evidence. When I say new evidence, I mean a new a fresh look at new information that would go back and give a fresh perspective and a new perspective on many of the details that had

come out previously. And so that's why those parole hearings were very important, because these family members who you know are still in prison and are trying to get out

of prison. They have become more and more forthcoming about details that they were previously you know, unwilling or you know, I don't know if they were willing at the time, and Manson said, no, you can't, but I think you know, at the time they were brainwashed and they were under his control still, and during the trials they did not testify. So not only were they under his influence, they didn't

really get a chance to say anything. And so you know, there are some people today who still claim that you know, that they want to get out and you know, Manson didn't kill anyone, and they're just saying these things that they can.

and beyond. And I say that for the audience that even if you thought the details were chilling before, even more chilling, even more detailed based on the information that you've done in this book, but especially from those parole hearings, am I correct from that information?

all that. Well, no, not just that he be you know, he controlled them by fear and intimidation and violence. So she came out and told stories about how, you know, he and I don't remember if this all came out in twenty sixteen, but I'm just saying that was when that official claim was made, which was given a name, and that defense wasn't even a defense at the time

that these trials happened. It came out years later. You know, the spousal battery kind of you know defense where you know, he beat me and so I was just protecting myself that kind of thing. She feared for her life and she feared you know, repercussions if she didn't do what he said. And so that was her claim, and so the the Parole Board actually took it under advisement. They went back and they did some investigation for a few months.

They came back and they said, yes, we find that this is true, but you know, you still can't get out of prison, and it's still not of you know, enough of.

So and this his first wife is Rosalie Willis. What kind of information and what kind of surprises and what kind of information did you elicit from Jason Freeman and those interviews.

And I have the court documents which basically show that this woman Sean Freeman Matt Charles Manson Jr. Who was going by Jay White at the time in a small town in Ohio, and he complained that his mother, you know, had a boyfriend and I think maybe she was on her second husband by then, or a third husband. I mean, because there was a White was his stepfather, and that's why he has that last name. So she had moved

on already and moved on to someone else. And apparently, you know, he claimed that this stepfather or boyfriend beat him, and you know, he was living on the streets, and so he moved in with Sean, and then Sean was already pregnant with somebody else's baby, but he hung in there and they they got pregnant too, and so then things kind of fell apart because he had some drug

and alcohol issues and he was still very young. But the biggest problem that he was dealing with in the seventies in the early seventies was that Charles Manson was on trial and his picture was everywhere and they apparently

looked alike, and so everywhere he went. He went to go get a job, actually, and he had a couple of different Social Security cards and he had to keep the one that had his real birth name on it, and he had to use that one, so people actually found out who he was, and so they just kept beating him up. So he'd go to a bar and he'd just get beaten up. There's a story in the book where the bartender basically breaks a bottle over his

head and it's bleeding. You know, I mean, people they just they beat him up because he had the same name. So he was very troubled also because he was trying to reach out to Charles Manson and there was no response. So for many years he was tortured by that. And he told Jason about that, and you know, after initially saying that it wasn't his kid, he still wanted to

see him and still wanted to talk to him. But Sean tried to kind of keep them apart because she didn't think it was good to hear for her son to hear all about his father's obsession with, you know, wanting to meet his father who was this notorious murderer. So maybe there's a lot of stories about that in the book, which I thought was pretty interesting. And what's more interesting now, you know, we kept updating the book as much as we could until the very last minute

while the battle over his Charles ham Manson's remains. What's going on followed that every step of the way, but we had to ultimately there had to be a point where we had to print the copies of the book. So I can't delay how many times that part was rewritten because things kept changing. But Jason did actually turn

out to be a pretty newsworthy figure. So he was the one person that I managed to find and did speak with him numerous times, and as I said, I wanted to make sure he was who he said he was, so I had him send me those documents from the court showing his father's name on the court records, and also ultimately his father ultimately committed suicide, and so, you know,

I just thought that that was important to show. These are the ramifications not only of not only did Manson have victims within his own family, these women who have been in prison ever since then, he made kill other people by brainwashing them and convincing them to do it, and it actually convinced them that it was their own idea, and that was what they said for many years, that this this. You know, he had no responsibility for it

because he wasn't there. He physically wasn't there, so he had them believing that they did all this on their own. He wasn't there. They wanted to please him, and so they all became his victims as well in a sense. I mean, I'm not taking sides with or expressing sympathy, but I'm just saying this is how a cult works, and that's essentially what the Manson family was was a cult.

So not only do you have those people in his wake, you have the victims who were stabbed and mutilated and shot by the family members, and then you also have his own blood family members, one of whom obviously committed suicide because of all of this fallout, you know, genetically and socially, culturally, you know it. It's sad all the way around. And I thought that was important to include in the book, and I wish that I had been

able to track down Michael Brunner. He actually contacted me pretty recently on Facebook, because that's actually how I managed to do some of my research, was to contact people through to some of these secret groups on Facebook, and you know, they all know, these people know each other, and there's still a lot of people who are still very obsessed with this case. And anyway, he emailed me and I just said, wow, I wish I had been able to locate you earlier so that we could have

interviewed you for the book. And he said, well, that was on purpose. So you know, he kind of lost out of this last round in the estate battle, but he wanted to make sure that, you know, his father's remains were not just scattered around for money, and that's essentially what's happening now, which you know, that's the way after what happened in the book. But turned out that Jason Freeman really was a very timely and topical story

all on his own. But you know, when I interviewed him at the time, none of this had happened yet. So we managed to get good information from him before the spotlight got on him and before there was any documentary you know, following him around and all that. So I'm proud to say that that chapter happened before all this other stuff.

And Mary quit her job to go on the road with Charlie and Lynette and got pregnant, and so Michael Brunner, who basically, you know, in Manson's view, the children did not really belong to any one person. They were kind of it was a communal living situation, and it was going to be a group kind of upbringing. So his

name has changed a number of times. But ultimately, after all this happened and his mother had to testify for the prosecution to get immunity and what have you, and she lost basically control over her own child because the child was taken from her and given to her parents. So he was brought up actually by his grandparents thinking that they were his parents and that Mary was his sister for quite some time. And he knows the truth now, and he seems like a really nice guy actually, you know,

just from the emails. He seemed really to have the right intentions, and you know, doesn't really seem to have a stomach for everything that's been going on with the you know, filling the ashes and what have you. It's just kind of unfortunate.

I honestly don't really understand this. But there was this whole crazy idea about fear and awareness and love and you know it it was it was very odd and that they were not real people that that that when they were actually stabbing these people text Watson later told the psychiatrists I was able to get a hold of his uh psychiatric records that he he said, you know,

I didn't feel like they were real. I heard Charlie's voice in my head telling me what to do, and you know, everybody was running around and to me, it sort of sounded like a cartoon in his head because he's on hallucinogens, and he's been on hallucinogens for quite some time, and so they basically found that he had organic brain damage and so he was out there, you know, stabbing and shooting everybody, and he said he was basically making happy noises and grinting, and it just the whole

thing was just surreal.

this apartment and go kill this guy. And she purposely, you know, pretended that it was the wrong apartment and the middle of the night and said, oh, no, it's the wrong apartment. So I mean it, you know, they some of them she said she couldn't do it, yeah, and the other ones could so and Patricia Crenwinkle I read, I believe it was one of her transcripts from the

Pearl Hearing. It might have been someplace else or an interview with her that she actually did go to the guest house and there was you know, the caretaker was in there, and she chose not to pursue that. She said she just was so tired by that point, she didn't have anything left in her and said because she'd already stabbed Abby Abigail Folger, yeah, on the grass and so and it had helped, you know, with all the other ones inside. So she was spent. And so that's

the reason that William Garrison was still alive. He died recently, but his life was spared because she just couldn't do anymore. So, you know it, it's a very grizzly story.

thirty five. And in this book you provide some other details about those other victims and their potential at least not up to thirty five, but other victims, other than the nine that were registered or the quarterback.

linked to the these family members. So you know, I there's a there's a spot in the book where I kind of list some generically in a sentence or two. There were and I don't remember, to be honest at this point without looking at the book, if even if they even ended up in that sentence, But I can tell you what from my memory. There were two scientology

students in LA who were found. And the reason that a lot of these that they did name and the police did talk about and there was news coverage of some of these, the reason they thought these were linked was because they were stabbed so many times and that that was pretty usual and that's not you know, that's not a common way to kill somebody. And this is at right around the same time, in the same general geographical area. But there was there was a those two

students there were stabbed. God, I can't even remember some like fifty times or something crazy like that. There was a I just did an interview with a documentary last week about the Marina Hobbe murder, which was in December, late December of sixty eight, and she was seventeen and

her body was found off Mulholland Drive against stabbed. And then there was Jane of number fifty nine, whose body was found also off Molan Mulholland Drive, and that was in the following November and they didn't know who she was for forty six years. So yeah, that she was just pretty recently identified as ret Jervitsen and she was dabbed one hundred and fifty seven times. So it's crazy,

you know. But see, the thing is to me, you know, I didn't fight to put more than that into the book because sorry, I need some water, because they seem tangential to me. I can't say for sure either way that they were Manson family victims or not. Yes, they were in the same general area, Yes they were in the same timeframe. But Riete Jervidsen the time of that murder. Manson and the family members who did the other killings were all in jail, right, So I don't know about

text Watson when he was let go. Honestly, they were arrested in October, but if if anything, you know, he was probably in Texas by that point. So Bruce Davis was still wandering around. And so you know, there are people who are still trying to put these you know, links together and say that these are related. But you know, part of the reason that they're doing that is because Manson bragged to one of the ranch hands that there

were as many as you know, thirty five victims. Susan Atkins and Leslie Van Houghton both mentioned the number of eleven murders. Now we still only know of nine for sure, right, so that's even two more. Then there's a guy out in the desert. His name is Paul Dosti. He's a retired Argist police sergeant who has made it his life's work essentially to use his cadaver dog, who has since passed away. His name was Buster, went out into the desert. And this is a dog trained to find not the recently.

And the dog alerted at five different places. This is where they were camping out and when they were finally arrested near Barker and Myers Ranches in Dath Valley. And so they're you know, Paul Dosti's pretty sure, and so it's his partner, our pad boss, that there are five bodies out there.

so who knows? And Manson went to his grave basically denying killing anyone, so we may never know.

also Bernard Crowe too as well. Right, these are details that yeah, go ahead, Now these details didn't help where I mean, how is it a result that you've got Where did you get those results of those from the parole hearings or how did that research get you that information?

do something different. So, you know, we purposely did not read Helter Skilter, so I don't want to be like accidentally copying somebody else's stuff. So we just basically, I had to get all of the original source materials, so so we could you know, look at it and review it and come up with our own conclusions and that way, you know, And I didn't didn't interview. We didn't interview

Vincent Bugliosi because he was dead. And that's the other thing with the challenge of this the research in this case, you know, we didn't have access, but it's it's kind of a miracle that have this much detail, to be honest, But I've had a lot of practice, and this was even a brand new approach because it was so difficult. The LAPD and the La County Sheriff's Department would not cooperate.

I initially thought they were the Sheriff's department was going to let us look at They said they had thirty boxes of you know, photos and reports and stuff that I could come in with my coffee machine and start to work and then next thing you know, I'm county council put the kebash on that, and I'm getting, you know, a call from a lieutenant saying no, sorry, no.

So what ended up finally happening is I managed to meet somebody one of these, like I said, these Facebook groups, who said, hey, you know, you should try the DA's office. I never have gotten information from a DA's office unless it was an ongoing trial or something. And then you know, they've got a case going and they want to help the media an author, you know that's they will, but not after thet I've never really other than interviews. I've never thought to go to get documents or whatever, but

in this case that's what that was. They were the keeper of the documents. So what I ended up getting was some some discs of information, and they were basically all the exhibits in pictures which were not reproducible. They were pretty bad. They were mostly xerox copies of photos and that sort of thing, but a lot of the stuff. And then there was like partial transcripts, partial grand jury transcripts,

partial trial transcripts. And the main problem is they were all watermarked, which meant if you printed them out you would have big gaps on your paper, so we couldn't use a copy of you know, regular printer. And they weren't searchable either, so basically I couldn't do a keyword search, and they were not organized or indexed, and so there was a massive number, you know, just I don't know how many thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of

trial transcripts, but a lot of them were missing. So honestly, this was the biggest challenge to try to make sense of all this and under deadline. But the Gary Hinman stuff, there was a lot of detail. Actually Mary Brunner testified to the grand jury, and she testified. I think she testified to the grand jury. I might be remembering that wrong, and I'm pretty sure, yeah, she was at the grand jury. And then she also gave interviews which were included I know,

I'm sorry. The two detectives that interviewed her, they testified before the gran jury, and that's why I got a lot of a lot of that. And then she also had an interview with what's his name, the original prosecutor who was taken off the case, Aaron. I can't remember his name anyway. There were so that on those various discs from the DA's office, there were little treasure troves of pretty detailed information, which then you know, we're able to craft into a scene which is pretty detailed and

so and that way. You know, I didn't read anybody else's book to say, you know that read that that's going to be very similar to so and so's book, because I don't I don't know how other people work, but that's you know, you take a lot of stuff from a lot of places and you weave narrative narrative nonfiction together, and that's what we did in this case. And so that was the product of that's the technique.

Thank god it was on those discs, I guess otherwise. Yeah, and Leth went to the parole hearing for tex Watson and she met Gary Hinman's cousin. Yeah, so you know, we talked to her too for something you know, more current and a little bit more of the family background.

of your stuff online. You can make some money that way, some of your belongings or whatever. And that ended up turning into a whole thing where John Gardner autographed a copy of Lost Girls, which caused all this commotion, and he did it on the page that was dedicated to the victims, and it was just like, oh God, John Gardner, why did you do that? Honestly I did not, you know, and it was being sold on a murder of billious site.

But basically they were friends. Charlie Manson had John Gardner read his mail and set and sign his name because Charlie had reading problems. I'm pretty sure just my layman's diagnosis that he probably had either dyslexy or some sort of reading disability because he wasn't really able to read. So we had other people. But anyway, I had actually

been in that room. So I had this woman who I interviewed, and I had already also been in that room, So it was I was able to create this scene from you know, first person observations, and so we thought that that was an important scene because number one, it showed that even at his age, I think it's time

he was with something like seventy nine years old. I think the day that that visit happened, and she was twenty seven, I think or twenty four, I can't remember, twenty probably twenty four, but the huge you know, he was more than three times age, right, So basically that

was the point. And he was still able to influence young women even with the way he looked, you know, and I saw pictures of him and he was not handsome, you know, he was you know, kind of you know, kind of cute and mischievous when he was young, and you know, he got a lot of women, but a lot of the women that he that he got into the family were kind of homely looking. If you look at the pictures, there are some pretty ones, but mostly

he really, you know, Patricia Cranwinkle was not pretty. She looked like kind of like a boy, you know, or man. And so anyways, Star was drawn to him when she was only seventeen. She heard about him from a friend for his environmental activism, and so she basically moved across the country to Corkoran so that she could visit him. So they started writing letters and then she moved there, and you know, they were together for what seven years,

and they were supposed to get married. She went and got them a marriage license so that they could actually get married in the prisons. And so we thought that that was pretty significant to show the dynamic and that he was still at it and still able to do it. And also because I just thought that that was such a poignant moment where they're dancing together in the visiting room. It's very just very visual, and it just stuck and stuck in my head and thought, I just thought that

readers would really relate to that somehow. And she became, you know, his She was one of the very few important people that he could rely on. And depend on to do his work on the outside. And so there's another guy named Gray Wolf who smuggled in some cell phones to him and finally got caught enough times that he was banned from the prison, couldn't come back anymore, but she could still come and so she was working on the at w A website, which was something that

Sandra Good had and her partner had started some years earlier. Basically, you know, Manson saying that the same thing that he said before, which is that the rich white people are destroying the planet, and look where we are today. So you know, it's you know, and there was the whole thing about at w A. It's a nonprofit, it's a one five oh one c three that she and this guy gray Wolf set up basically, you know, on Manson's behalf.

But Manson is not mentioned anywhere. So the whole thing about putting her in the book was number one, to show that Manson was still capable of getting young women and influencing them. Number two, that he could get them to fall in love with him and do what he said. Number three, that he still had people on the outside doing what he wanted them to do. And in this case, you know, change his image, tell everyone that he was wrongfully convicted, you know, like a pr person almost, you know.

And then you know he wanted them to plant trees and do things like that. So I thought it was I thought she was pretty important. I was not able to get her to talk to us.

what are the details of Brainwashington? And that's what you provide in this on how it started and how it became and What I found very interesting too, is that the people that were seemed to be reluctant when they tried to leave, like Katie, they were Manson instituted a lot that no one could leave alone. So he didn't trust those people that didn't trust him one hundred percent.

As he became more paranoid, and as he became more delusional about this idea of going underground and Death Valley, and his idea that the Black Panthers the Black Man would rise. And so you provide more details of exactly how he seduced these women and these men.

that people commonly think of as Manson murders. The Gary hinmanman and the attempted murder of Bernard Crowe and then the one after which is of Shorty Shae the ranch hand. These are you know, the not the high profile murders that everybody thinks of, you know, with regard to this case. But when you read them and the domino start following falling, and you can sort of understand that, you know, this helter skelter thing that Bugliosi focused on in court in

order to win this case. Yes, there was there was something the helter skelter idea where yeah, they're going to go under ground, go out.

you know this is all from the Bible. So all these rantings that Manson told the family and that that Bugliosi.

they're not really theories. They they are other motives that that play into this that that just did not come out in court. So we thought that was very important. And so it shows when he when they go there to the Henman house to go get money so that that'll subsidize the move out to the desert, and he didn't have any money, so they end up killing him. And you know, initially Bobby Bosley is the one who

actually stabbed Gary Henman. He's changed his story a number of times, but you know, he claims he called up the branch and talked to Manson, and Manson said, you know what you need to do, and so he stabbed him. But you know, the thing was that these other murders, there are people in the family who say, well, we did that so we could get Garrett, we could get Bobby Busley out of jail because he was being held

on the murder of Gary Hinman. And if we made it look like the Black Panthers did these other murders by painting these messages in blood of pigs and rise and helter skelter like they did at at the Tay and La Bianca houses, we can show that make it look like there's somebody still out there who actually did this.

And you know, Bobby was in jail when these other murders were committed, So you know, it's a whole other motive for why not just helter skelter, which is pretty crazy set of you know ideas as a way to you know, make these people do these crazy things that are seemed pretty inexplicable. Why that would be a motive. So it's helped part of the big mix.

brutal killings. But you know, if you're someone like me who has a psychology background and has covered prisons and mental illness and how addiction often plays into killings. You know, he was mentally ill. The guy has been was until he died, classified as a mentally ill inmate. He was at Vacaville for a dozen years. He was in there with all these crazy people. He was diagnosed with aspects of schizophrenia. He was paranoid, he had personality disorders, and on.

And I sat down talked to him one day and he said, yeah, I'm schizophrenic, and I don't like the way the pills make me feel because I have all this stuff in my head and the pills basically just keeps it all inside my head. But I still have it all bouncing around in this way. If I don't take the pills, it can come out physically, but the

pills keep it trapped. Well. So while Manson was out, you know, he was obviously, you know, not taking any kind of medicaid for any of these and even I think when he was in prison they did medicate him at least while he was at.

is kind of a bad term. It's just the way his mind works, and so people thought he was mystical, and people were mesmerized by the way he talked and the ideas that came out of his mouth, and that's part of what brainwashing was, especially when they were on LSD, because what he said became had much more relevance, and he you know, pulled it all together and into this whole crazy idea of going to the desert and finding this bottomless pit and this and that, and so when

you look at all of those things, it's the totality of all of those factors together of what he was doing to them with fear, intimidation, with sex, with drugs, with these you know, mystical quote unquote rants about what was going to happen, and the fear and the brainwashing techniques, and then the classes on stabbing. I mean, these people, you know, basically did whatever whatever he told them to do because he trained them. I mean, if you've studied

any kind of cult, that's what they do. They bring you in, come join the group. You know, these are lost people who are looking for some direction. They're looking for somebody to give them the answers. They're looking for somebody to tell them what to do with their lives, to give their lives. Meaning, these were a lot of young people who had problems with their parents, with their mothers,

with their fathers. Some of them were sexually molested. A number of the men and women were you know, Bruce Davis was was raped and molested when he was young, and so was Charlie. Charlie was raped by these kids in prison when he was not prison, I'm sorry, in the institutions when he was growing up, because he was in juvenile facilities from the time he was a teenager until the time he got out and met Rosalie Willis. It was the first She was the first woman he'd

ever had sex with. He'd been having sex with boys for you know, five years before that, so it's really interesting that, you know, he was institutionalized and all of that became part of his whole thing, and the Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale scientology and then Stranger from a Strange Land Robert Heinland. Those concepts, books and ideas he picked up also while he was in prison. So by the time he gets out, he's got this whole like mythology built up in his mind about this stuff that he's

preaching to these people. And I have to say, you know, it must have been it must have been pretty provocative and pretty powerful because it caused these people to go kill other people.

somewhat seriously. If you think, you know top guys in the LA scene at that time in sixty eight, tell us about Terry Melcher, the house and any thing that you discovered that was again you didn't read Helter Skelter in preparation for this, But what did you find about the Terry Melcher and that motive in that house and that producer?

Dennis was like, oh, come on inside my house. So he did, and that's how Tex Watson met Manson. Well, so Manson next thing you know is he's moving all these young girls in with Dennis Wilson because he's like, oh, here's my ticket.

he wanted other people to hear him. And so Terry Melcher, there was another guy who worked for Terry Melcher who was also involved in this story, who basically convinced Terry to come over to the to spawn Ranch and listen to this you know, unusual group with Charlie Manson, who Terry had already met at Demis Wilson's house.

guys move in? So Charlie came over in March of sixty nine, and went to go find Rudy else Belly in the guest house or was looking for him. I don't know what he said exactly, but there was a photographer over there shooting Sharon Tate, and he came out and talked to Charlie who was just wandering around the front yard, and basically the guy said, you're looking for whoever's in the guest house. And so Charlie went to

the guest house and no one was there. So he came back that night talked to Rudy and he wanted to know where Terry Melcher was. You know, he knew he wasn't living there anymore, but he wanted to know where he was, and Rudy wouldn't tell him. Well, when he came over in the afternoon, Sharon Tate actually came to the door and was like, what's going on, and so he actually looked her eye to eye. There was actually, you know, so he knew who was in that house and he knew it wasn't Terry Melcher.

until you have at least six hundred dollars. And that was the mission that night. And so you know there are people today who were like, well, it was revenge. That's probably partially true. Susan Atkins told her lawyers that that house represented a symbol of rejection for Charlie because he felt it that Terry Melcher renegged on him. But you know, more overall globally, he wanted he wanted to

kill the beautiful people. He wanted to make a statement, He wanted to shock the world because he felt like the white people were destroying society. And that's where this whole race war thing came from. The black people, you know, the Muslim black Muslims and the black Panthers were all already out, you know, causing their movement, you know, and so he said, they're already out there doing it, and so they're going to keep doing it, and then we're

gonna go to the desert. They're going to join us out there in the desert, and then you know, when they're done killing everybody, then they're going to make me their leader, because they're not going to know how to lead themselves. So that it's a crazy theory, but there are actually parts of it that that do make sense. But I think, you know, he sent them to that house because he wanted to kill the rich, beautiful white people who he knew now occupied that space. And there

may be more to it than that. There's also another thing that we mentioned in the Alternative Theories chapter in the book, where Manson has had had later and and since and was still telling friends of his that he went actually after text Watson and the girls came back and they told them what happened. He was really upset that they made such a mess, and so he went back that night, later that night to clean up quote unquote and see what his children quote unquote had done.

And then so there, you know, supposedly he left some glasses there, He moved the bodies around. It's possible that he went there with someone else. We don't know who that is, because it does say in the police reports that the bodies uh See Bring, Jacy Bring and Sharon Tate's bodies appear to have been moved, So that actually does match what Charlie was saying later, I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to get going pretty soon. So let's see if you have any last one or two questions.

shot by the police officers, the white police officers. That was a big thing that was happening while we were working on this, which doesn't we're not the media is not focusing on that so much. We're seemed to be more focusing on Russia and global divides now. But basically, you know, here's the thing. We have the opiate epidemic, so there's a lot of people out there who are

in a vulnerable state. There are a lot of people out there who you know, more and more this has actually gotten even stronger since since we were working on the book. More and more people distrust the government. More and more people mistrust the establishment. The conservative and the more progressive factions are factions you know that you know,

just like they were back back in those days. It just seems like there's so many of the same kinds of dynamics going on, except today it's much more dangerous because we have the Internet, we have social media, we have these Russian bots, we have whoever is putting together these the propaganda that you can see on Facebook where they're drumming up, you know, division and trying to pit

people against each other and causing chaos. It is the perfect time for an ideologue who has dangerous intentions to come in and try to sway mass opinion. And it's happening every day today. So that's why. You know, if you're a student of history, you can see that that history does repeat itself, and it's happening right now. And so Lisa and I felt very strongly that we wanted to end the book with that message that you know, people learn from the past, look at what's going on

around you. This could happen again. Manson, you know, Manson was a product of the media. Manson was you know, people say always. He even said this himself, I'm a product of Bugliosi. I'm a product of all of you people looking for basically someone to blame this all on and I became, you know, the icon, and he's he was right. I think he really did manage to be

the guy who was easy to blame. And you know, you look online and who is the most talked about evil killer ever and it's Manson always right, So I mean, it could anyone could step in and do that, and in fact, I think there are people doing that right now. And I won't name any names, but it's a dangerous it's a dangerous time.