HUNTING A PSYCHOPATH-Richard Shelby

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His book details the efforts to apprehend this psychopath before he transformed into a Southern California serial killer who preyed upon middle class couples through a terrifying series of home invasion murders. This particular series of crimes remains unsolved, leading many questions about a violent predator who has been labeled one of the most brazen criminals in US history and one of the least publicized. Detective Shelby's book is fast

paced and full of investigative details. The book that we're featuring this evening is Hunting a Psychopath, The East Area Rapist, Original Nightstalker Investigation with my special guest, journalist and author and detective Richard Shelby. Welcome to the program, Richard Shelby, Thanks glad to be here.

clothing in the drawers. He would steal men's underwear that to me is a whole new one, the women's lingerie. He would toss the side and throw it around like here's met at her or something. I think once he laid it down out on a bed. He was known to take jump Jewey, but not a complete set. He might take a part of one and leave apart. And he was seen a few times, and usually when he was he was talking to a phantom next to him.

Man saw him one night and the guy turned to his left and said, we got to get out of here, ben, and there's nobody there. And then I think towards the end, it was in September of seventy five a girl woke up and this creep had his hand over her mouth and was taking her outside until she had to come with him. When he goes out the door, her father, Professor Snelly, here's something. He comes to the front door

and asks the guy where he's taking my daughter. The suspect turned and fired twice, hit mister Professor Snelling twice, who died at the scene. He turned in the gun in the girl's face and then he pulled the back and kicked her in the face in the left. That

was in September. Then in the following December, the was the sergeant Vaughn and especially Age McGowan was taking out the neighborhood and there with the guy in prowling, here's no question about that, and especially at McGowan heard him walk by the down the sidewalk from where he was hiding. So he walked up when the guy and the guy was standing looking in the window of the house. My gallant pulled his gun, held the light up, told the guy to turn around whatever it was, and the suspect

turn looked at him. He pulled his hat off his head with the right hand, based in his left pocket with his left hand. While it was kind of squeaking, don't hurt me, donor hurt me, pull out of gun. He fired, went round at the officer. He went dead. Sit her down the line of the flashlight right down to the center of the batteries, and then they brought

in the dogs and everybody else. They figured out later not the guy just walked across the highway by the hospital was put here in Washington while they were looking for him. And then they had the bad learned all this was. They went to a criminal profiler, the only one who had any real interest in who said the suspect worked to the utility company and he probably moved. Well,

we'd move from from there soon. Well, two days after the shooting, the utility company employee requested a transfer up by Sacramento, and so they came up here and asked, and I met them. They came up to Sacramento to tell us what they had and check on ani rapist reports, and then they wanted somebody to go to them to the town of Davis, fifteen miles away and confront the suspect of there's this potential suspect, which is what we did.

doing this kind of stuff we're talking about. In February fourth, February fourth, nineteen seventy six, he was a man was seen by a book well. He came in, tried to attack the woman and her daughter. They beat him off. He came back looking for a medallion, and he stood right by a lighted lamp, and the girl saw him too. For the results, you got a good look at him.

And by chance, a band parked across the field near their house was seen by a citizen who walked up and looked at and put down the license late called it in. Two officers came up walked around and looked at it and wrote it down, and then the way he checked it back and came to this carpet layer out of Pollock Pines, California. Well, February sixth, seventy six, as I had promoted inspector, there was in my office.

A month or so after that, Carold Daily, Detective Daily, walked in and dropped his hustack reports on my desk and said, have fun. Captain Thumb said you have you these? So I got into him as I goot out all this information. Well, we know he was the guy. We know this guy was Theredeburg rapist. We also figured out

he had a copycat who was his father. Was well known in the local media circles and were focused on him, and he packed up and he left and he went to Montana and he just barely skated out of here. The copycat. It was zero evidence, absolutely nothing. I became interested in him because he was interested in the raps or gave him polygraph which he flunked. Well. Then in June there's the first attack, first known attack by these

day rapists. Nobody connected it, and we go along until the following October when I got into it, and then I kind of picked up, there's probably another serial rapist going.

him as the same. Somewhere along the line, somebody kind of figured it out, and all of a sudden we forgot about the thirty bird rapists and started focusing on this hysterio rapists.

You're always trying to look for some kind of connections between a victim, but in this first one, you get all together the information and she's a nurse and as a reserve lieutenant, and there was crank phone call.

and her husband did the investigation their own. They went over the fence and there's a field behind their house and they walked across it and they found the black sox that belonged to her husband. The guy used it for a glove. I'm sure. Well, then they go home. It's about a week later. Ecause think the guy comes in and she's assaulted. And then I got there and patrolman had been there. They've done it. What to call

the neighborhood canvas. They walked around, talked to all the neighbors, and I only talked to a few of them that time. And we started putting everything together. And when I figured out real fast, was this guy knew that area better than the neighbors did. Several people had they thought somebody was in the house, couldn't be sure, or somebody was and they might have taken some jewelry and left somebody

else's jewelry. They weren't read through and they were getting hang up phone calls, just like Jan got a couple one of them. They threatened her husband and then they stopped and she's assault. And then when the guy made his escape after the assault, he went across that same field, a little short street called shadow Brook, and there's two houses on the west side, introduced parks in front, and the witnesses saw the car at a certain time. What boiled down to was he had the timing perfect. His

car was there. They just happened to see it because they brought up garbage. Can't hurry that day. And then he left before they came out to go to work, because when they came out, the car was gone. He had it right then. I was convanced right then that this guy somehow I picked that neighborhood and he really focused on chan. I didn't know if it was aerial rapist or not, but having just within weeks finished that one, I was kind of keyt on it looking for something like that.

the kind of knot was very unusual. It's called the diamond knot used in nautical or or with horses.

risks for I don't know half pop time. I got there and they were still discolored and their wrists were all red, red lines. But she said that he said shut up out. He did it fifty times. He'd asked her question to tell her to shut up getting roking. She first when he first came in, he told her, you know, don't worry, I just munch your money and

all that. And once he knows he can't get up and beat him up, she's all tied, and he goes ahead and starts his threat impair rises to her as much as he can, and he establishes a pattern right there that occurs literally every crime. He heads in the kitchen and gets something to eat. I don't know you know anything about psychology, but he's sure got to hang up because he has to eat every time.

of going on it. And she disputed the time. In fact, I had lunch with her here a few months ago, and she still thinks it was an accident, but I don't, and he does.

mostly mostly women. And I also figured this guy was a whip and they could probably whip his butt, they could get a free, fair shot at him. And later on that turns out what some of the girls said, give me a fair chance I can take him.

say he was probably five foot nine. The high estimates varied from about five foot six or seven to six foot or more, but some of the victims had reference points. In this particular case, Dan saw her husband standing in the hallway. Wherefore she first saw this guy, and he's five foot ten. She looked at that and she think it five to nine. And I talked to a couple leathers said he's no more than five to nine. Who

won a certainly a five seven. I talked to the guy who saw him walking out by the backyard one night, and he kept saying This guy's no taller than not as tall as that fence. I don't like saying that. So he's about five foot nine, one hundred and fifty sixty five pounds. And apparently he could clear a fis, you know, like leap and call buildings. He could just go right over there.

As we started getting it done, I started noticing certain patterns, and in fact, we need to notice more patterns, just recently, just in the last few weeks. But this guy would pick a neighborhood, naturally, have your escape routs, your thoroughfare somewhere nearby. He preferred a green belt area around Ratcha Madually that part of Sacramento, you have a lot of old drain ditches that are now allowing to seem men.

He can just walk down those things. He liked the school nearby and shrubby and so forth, and the the thing between him and by say a ransackers. They stayed close to the shrubs and if they walked across the front yard, just stay up against the shrubs. He wouldn't stay out in the middle like that. Well ordinary, and sometimes he was seen just walking down the street. We think it was him, We don't know, but he's doing this. And then eventually figured out how he found his wherever

he how he selected his victims. He would figure out whether they're living, and he would go there and he would prowl that area, and while he was at it, he picked up alternate victims so he could assault somebody tonight, come back in the month, two months and he'd sawt somebody else, and he wouldn't come back to that area.

The only time he stayed within even a reasonable area in one area was in rancher Podopa, and I didn't know at the time, but he had already had two assaults over there, and they were probably off the top of my head, I'd say seventy eight blocks apart, maybe a little more. But all these places had they had illegal issues in your house, some didn't have. Some found screens off. Sometimes you find a door open, and they would very off and find something in the house had

been moved. Somebody was here, but they couldn't be certain, but they'd find something was moved, or did find some jewelry that wasn't there, there was gone. They find a gun that was unloaded. So he's moved around. Later on, much later, he started coming in early and leaving stuff like her.

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with him. You stayed out of there. From the thirties forties, probably in the early fifties, it was as corrupt as you could get. Somebody went down there. But then they started changing in the late fifties for a lot of this, I'm being told by the guys that were there at the time. And then a sheriff called John Missed, the Big John. Everybody afraid to him. He took over and he started changing things around a little bit. But we

were still the same way. If somebody the case came in, you know, they finding their sk left, they knew somebody knew how to hand let it. Just find the near sky and say you got the short straw. They could and go. And there was no real official training or anything else. In fact, the detective or patrol commander could go to the bar and sit there all night, and they was needed to come get him. Wayne Low came in,

took over. He immediately started changing the entire structure to match up the one in a book by Old W. Wilson's old textbook Chief Deputies, that kind of stuff. And he was doing really good, but there was still that internal non physical, non material system going on. So she got a case investigation. WOUN worked and whatever it was. You might come back and hey, guess what I did today. You talk about it, says gone, Nobody says anything more about it. And so when that started. But back of

this little bit, give you an idea. When I first got that office first time in Detective seventy two, I got into the department armory. They had two Thompson sub machine guns. But anyway, getting off the track there, Uh so I started looking and I just started talking to people, that is her about any cases like this. They say yes, So it was something like that. So I go talk to them. The fucking sergeant Bevans and technic cousin, and both had a case, Pusan's case. The guy knew beforehand

wherevers going. Who's going to assault Bevans? He probably didn't. It was probably a primate opportunity, as we figured out starting in and later that whole area right in there hid been just saturated with Prouder pulls, and they're most always described as a teenager, teenager or very very early twenties. Hevery time.

his mo of speaking through clenched teeth. Yeah, so tell us a little bit about what he does with these two girls that obviously affects what he does next, but tell us some of the things that are established there in terms of m O.

I think he checked on her once or twice. Then he went next door and he woke up her sister, and her sister is gonna whip him. She came out of the bed and hit him first thing, and then he chased her down the hallway, and probably she faced him down. She could have beat him, but they went down the hall when he stopping on her and he finally got her all tied up. He sets the assaulted

to one sister but not the other one. But all during his time he's saying, you know, like the first sister, that what he didn't assault, didn't I meet you with the prom or something about the prom and her prom picking right there on on her counter. And he goes in that and ransacks the house. And most of these crimes you can hear him putting something in the paper bag or taking it out. We never figured out what he was putting in that paper bag, laid that bag

changes to something else. It's a cloth bag and the canvas bag, and it just keeps changing all the time. But when they got when they came in to investigate the girls got loose the telephone wires coming to the house. He'd put a flower pot or something down there and got up tried to cut him. And what he did is he took off the insulation. We all thought at first clumpy. I thought later, No, he isn't. He's using the outigator clips. He's tapping into that telephone lines so

he can listen in any conversation going on. Who knows when he did. That could have been that night. I don't know who was asking about the doctor's drugs. These girls had a doctor under their father was a cardiac surgeon, So I think that was the forth the salt was. Actually, no, it wasn't before the fifth, but I knew him at that point. Two of the victims like for him. Two of the victims they had some sort of connection with the medical Yeah, yeah, they were the They were the

second one. That's what it was. Yeah.

eyes and the mouth, usually just the eyes. And what they were Now, I got a thing right here. It might have it on it.

San Francisco were really just big caltowns. But every place, every victim in Sacramento and there's I could figure most, if not all, outside of Sacramento, like country, across the county and those places. Every one of them the house with yourself occurred, was had just been sold, just been rented, I was up for sale, or was next door or right across the street from one, and one had just built. Every one of them was that way when you go down to southern California. I think it continues, but I

don't have enough information to confirm that. And the people that investigated the ones up here when he went he moved out, they didn't know enough about his mot even asked those questions that I started looking. And the real estate and the telephone were two things that turned up again and again and again, and at first devices don't forget it, they're all overwhell they were. Pretty soon they

figured out there really was a connection there. Jan's house that was across the street was one for sale, the one on Marlborough, the two sisters, I'm not sure because I didn't go up there and look, and the one where the blutw was assalted at her garage. I don't know that one either, but I'm willing to back because everybody up your head places for sale at the time.

burgerized some jewelry in his house that's not his. Well, the officer the second report had no clue what to ask about these kind of questions because she was like the first or second one, I think first one, and so he didn't know what to ask. So Dorcas he's wandering around and trying to those around and look at the entire crime scene. Finally the officer had to kick him out of the house. And it turns out Dorcast

is right straight across the behind her backyard. You can look out his window and there's no fancy look out a window, look straight into her bedroom window. Because she never kept the coverage. She just had a big plant and thought that would do that'd be just good enough. So I mean here he introduced himself, made up the story that the cop couldn't believe, and he's sitting right here, and he sit the physical of course, sitting right there. What nobody fought to look for at that time was

the shoes. I think she said he had a square two of black patent leather shoes. I don't know who wears those less the pre a tuck or something. And nobody bothered to look at that guy's feet to see what kind of shoes he's wearing. Of course he probably would have changed, but that's how he became a suspect.

And later on we had a dog track in the suspect from a crime scene, and this Dorcas guy, who was standing right here on dog roll right attention to it and finally put him fly worked up an alibi for this guy Dorcas so and I think years later they combected and got his DNA. So this there's no question.

for us do not screete the blood type. So we had some five thousand suspects when we stopped working here southern California, and seven thousand and most of them were eliminated on the secrete non screen for status. Well, since then it's been found out that you can be both. The guy was in court for rape and the seamen taking into scene was a secretor I think could have been any way around. And they had this guy they tested survive and he was the opposite through the tense.

Just drop into the said, let's try for both. So they did. They got doctors examples of both. It turns out he is both a secretor and non screwen. So those five thousand suspects, they're right back on the list. Wow, can't count. You don't know who they are. And now because somebody destroyed all the records, Jeerz.

house before. And then he tied the ten year old up. What he did, he stood right there next to the lamp. He was teared on, and a kid's pretty calm. Who's telling me? He says. The guy had black haired, blue eyes and hit her black hair in his arms and the lakes. He was standing there, and he had a shirt and shorts, nothing else on. And he went in to kid his mother and living room, and he spends quite a bit of time assaulting her and there, and

she's pregnant by the way. But when when the we called for, the guy with the tracking dog came out and with the dog going backwards, what he did, he was from this lady's house. They had to go with the fence, had to go back out to the car in front of the neighbor's house. Then he went to the neighbor's back door from backyard window and over and back out to a big field out there. And now the field was more than a field. It was supposed

to be a freeway. And then Governor Jerry Brown ka Moonbeam, he closed down the freeway and he sold it the real estate developers. All the new houses were going in there. This guy driven in, parked his car back there and sounded like an American made car, and according to the TRACKSI found, it probably was. And he parked it, came over, went over the fence first to that neighbor's back window, were up to the car in the front, and walked

around and right over to this lady's house. The people next door was a doctor and his wife, and they were out of town unexpected. I personally say that's where he was headed. But he's, like I think I said in the book, he's stressed these occasion, so he just went shopping next door. Sure there, went in and he assaulted her. When he salted her. Somewhere along the line, he took his knight and he outlined the y incision used by an autopsies on her body. You know what

that means? That just so of these little hands here and there, you can go off in the direction you want what he knew and what he didn't know.

the lookout for the description we had. It was like the next day, maybe two days later, the second PD officer, he was on some kind of call and spotted this guy I think I called him mart Pington in there. He rested for something and he had a leather palace. He got into it and there was a rock, a psychiatry workers thing, ice picked some other stuff and a bent and spoon, and I personally still think he did that assault, which was absolutely no way to prove it,

no way at all, but we tracked him down. It turns out he was a mentally disordered, disappointed sex offender getting a thousand and forty dollars a month at tax free, which at the time was pretty good. He was making more than we were as a matter of fact, and didn't have to work, and he'd been arrested for a series of rapes in Sacramento in the sixty eight I think it was, and his sister one of them. Called me up to say, I know he's the guy. He

came over and looking at his toolbox. He look us toolbox nothing and up her rusty tools and they're really rusty too. And she told me the story that he and one of the guy and I didn't name the other guy out of who it was. They decided it was in the sixties, ever going to murder a woman

just for fun, and he had a loaded rifle. He's waiting around a building or something for her to come by, and she just, for whatever reason, she didn't do it, so he didn't go back and try a Yet this guy, well, he actually killed his brother with an arrow through the neck and he's in a taskadarrow.

to go. Maybe it was a psychological kink there. I don't know, but that was the only real that in the tearing up towels to gag and blindfold, because when I started investigating him, I physically put him within two blocks of two rapes in San Diego at the night they occurred, and they were older women fifty and sixty maybe older. And he ripped up towels and he blindfolded and tied and gagged all that kind of stuff that was all the same. There's only so many ways you

can do these crimes, but that stuck. I know he did. Though San Diego could never be connect him to him, but he was down aft. I put him their relatives. I guess.

She got the phone call office next meeting. I just got this call, so I called her back. He says, Yeah, it was him. She was here with him.

And eventually back when he killed his brother, they got his DNA and they tried to confirm it. Yeah, he was not the Sterey rate, but they were following him every way in the world, doing anything they could dig up information on him. He was just perfect for In fact, they laughed at me. Kept says not the guy. I said, no, it's got to be here, but it wasn't.

so I told him. He didn't even argue. He turned right around, went back, notified all the top level people down there, and then he came in a few days later and told me they're putting the other task force starts at Bevans. I wasn't very friendly in the fourth floor, by the way, that's all in Honcho State. Bevans was going to be their lead investigator. He was going to be the task force commander, and he wanted me to

work with him. Then in seventy two. From nineteen seventy two, he had a policy that he picked up somewhere else. He figured a good detective doesn't need a signed case to go out and you know, prevent crime. I was supposed to go out into the scene of the crime, figure what I could, like like Devan everybody else did, and then working backards trying to figure out how did they pick this guy here and what's going on around here?

And I started doing neighborhood campuses on my own and finding out about the victims that I came up with a whole lot of stuff. He did not come up with going the other direction, and in fact, the eventually I was been One night I told the group, I said, he's going to hit tonight up here in one of these three streets, and I need these five expert units.

He had five officers and Rancher Putdoba where the guy already hit four times, and their whole job was to wander around on foot at night, and no crime occurred while they were there. And I said, put him up there, and he argued with me. I finally gave me one what are you gonna do with the one guy? So I sent him over to a place called thorn Wood Street where we were anticipating, and they had the strike there and we set him up over there. That night he hit on Merlin Dale, one of the three streets.

In fact, when I gave a briefing to the patrol officers officers CHERI said to put my finger almost the exact spot he hit. Had I known what was going on in that neighborhood up to that point, I could have told you what house he was going to hit. But getting information out of patrol because half of them wouldn't make a report, but they talked about it among themselves. They's just just like trying to interview. Oh, I don't know, trying to hold a handful of water. I can't do it.

And then it was after that, I think it was in May seventy seven. I was going through the reports, I handled some of them, and I came across one I talked about illegal entry. Something had been moved, that's all. So I took Curtis a patrol off shoe. We just got assigned to the task force. He went with me. We went to the house and there's a one of size nine nine and a half foot print testue right on the wall, four or five feet off the ground, had a small window bite within very big at all

he could see. He just kind of jumped up, put his foot and crawled in. But nobody was home. So we looked across the street. Now, this street was I think it was Templeton parallel's Madison Main thorough them where there was like one line of houses totlee in the two streets, and then you have every roads running north south off of that Templeton well, one of them was Cedarhurst, and so we decided, okay, we'll check this out, and

so we go across the corner. He go to Agnal'll take the second house in the corner, which is what he was picking at the time, And there we find a woman and her young daughter, and the dare had her target and she was going to be assaulted any time she came home many times. And the door is unlocked, it's a jar. Something in the house is I think a big flower pot was taken off the table and put them on the floor, and I can't remember what else,

but and hang up. Phone calls has been coming and they stopped about a week or two weeks before we showed up. Her key was outside on the floor mat. So we explained everything to her what we thought was going on. In fact, I know what was going on. Then we went across the street again, a house diagonal going back, and there's a tree setting there. It's about fifteen twenty feet high, real heavy foil underneath that tree

or cash, your footprints and cigarette. But nobody was home at that house, by the way, so we'd go to the next door neighbor. And that's the guy that says, yeah, he was not as tall as a fence. He looked the window a week or two earlier, ten o'clock at night, and he saw a guy five foot nine as blonde hair walked out of that backyard and he was backyard and entered the street, and he didn't know way he went from there. There's no question he was going to

assault her. At the other end of that street, a man got a new job and he had his new work schedule laying there on the nightstand, and he had a gun. He came home and that schedule was gone. And the gun was unloaded well to lieutenants and the detective vision girl excited. They were talking about that all over the radio. Everybody knew about it. So I told sig Churse, I said, you know, this is a perfect set up for a stakeout at this house. But this

guy's not coming back to the street. And he didn't. He never came back, and that pact right after that. There's not long after that he turned up and stocked him, which is what an hour's drive from Sacramento. As far as I'm concerned, he was listening to us on the radio, probably had a CD or went with ham right away over the youth monitor.

There's about three or four months of time I've was telling all of them, don't talk about this over the air. I might found out latest exactly what they did. They just talked it up the store. It was like two days later another assault and his gloves and never came off during the entire assault. So he heard them meaning what we were doing. He didn't have to be smart. Could be some pre dumb, dumb things we did.

in and you can get really really close. I got one guy now that calls me from out the state UNA, where truck driver and he's convinced that this one guy looks much like a composite. He's got to be the guy we're looking for. And he doesn't want his name to be known, but he wants me to drive four or five hour drive to go ask this guy for his DNA. Just can't get this guy to leave me alone. Then call me from fact. They're got a holding call on him now. But they they only they brought up well,

I guess you could see they're a real thumb. There's no way you can go buy him. But if he gets some guy in the had a compositive kind of white flat face. They have one of the I say, a ransacker looks nothing like these stair rape composits. So do us somebody it looks like that, you send them down to I say, because they're not gonna be the stir rapist and act up Here one guy that looked right at him. I didn't know this till Kleisko. He said it looked like a Neanderthal. But what I had

concluded in this mission came out long. I mean, just in the last couple of years. The guy probably had a slight touch of rosetia. He had possibly an acne's card face, not heavy, just a little. He had a kind of a ruddy readish complexion. He was a jogger. He was an athlete. Really, he could jump fences. Like I said, he was seen jogging wearing a paratroopers boots. Who are all kinds of t shirts tennis you he were all kinds of clothes. We recovered a car that

I know it was his. Unfortunately, I remember absolutely nothing about this because I but I did the report. Fulston Police Department saw a car park for a street night. This is in January seventy seven, and so they cited it from being abandoned. Well, the next night the car has moved down the street as far as it. Austin concerned and abandons abandons. I impounded it. The following March, the Tilliard started going through inventuring property because they're going

to sell the car in public auction. They found two riot guns that kind of used by cops, a whole bunch of shotgun shows like the cops used. I think five sets had closed and all identifying marks removed. Had a wig and I thought and thought and thought about that. I vaguely recall those two riot guns, and I don't remember what else anything else about it. And most of the stuff, not all, but a lot of it I can remember in clear detail, but I cannot remember that.

But I did track it down that the car was sold in December of seventy six. The people that sold it, that both sents died your Bill Paddings, and they described the guy. He gave a name of Dennis Allen, I think it was, and they described him one city, was sixteen years old, he had said twenty. They said he was polite, had shagg type haircut, light blonde, five foot nine, one hundred and sixty pounds or so, pretty much. But the year was described as and then he just disappeared.

The thing prior pounding that car in December of seventy six, and I got this phone call months later. A young girl in a sacament of city limits was going home, went down the alley and this guy sent her in a car watching her. She got out of the car, he got out, she left. She called her mother, and mother went outside and the guys going. This happened a couple of more times. W's a different car, and then happened again. This time she called her father, came outside.

The guy got a car and he ran real brave. Well, it was a sixty one value, all that faded white and blue and stuff coming through it. I'm certain it's the same pride as impounded in January. And they called the city police and they came out, looked at it, did nothing, left it. The next day of the car is going a couple of days. Yeah, So a couple of days later, the guy's back and then he doesn't

go back anymore. The license plate. I ran it down to a junk yard and loud I had been scrapped out a couple months earlier, and then I chaced it somehow through Stockton and they just lost it where it went. So he used at least twice I know of, he used a license place off of junk cars. Most of the time they came back and not on file, which means either copied wrong or the heading be registered for four years.

be the military is real in his head. He really didn't do it. He could have been in the real estate. And if I was in the real estate, I would look at escrow or praisers that those records are destroyed after seven years. I I checked here recently. The lending company's out of the question because at least one victory had a brand new house just built and they paid cash, so they didn't get involved in lending. So that's out.

But you have the case in Modesta where the guy he gives off the called tax Ga, picks up the ferret at the airport the United Airlines just landed. He knew that he is what the guy was ordered not. He takes the guy down to near a vacant field. The guy so this good. He gets out. He was across the field. He's got the SATs and with als on top. On the other side of that field, I think it was. The next night was a brand new house and the assault went down in there and the

guy had a sash of it open. The top just like this guy did. He gave a description thirty years old, which doesn't match the others. So you know, it's really hard to say. I will tell you this, the descriptions we got once he left Sacramento, you have at least two different people. I don't know if they know each other. You never see more than one set of footprints to

find two and three cans. But you can't go from a real firm, athletic body to a potcut from some flat and you can't go from a hard calloused hand to a small suft ones. It just can't be done, not in a matter of weeks. And we're talking like two or three weeks. So there was more than one out there, but that's not unusual either. I'd like to know.

going to hit the street. Cedar Hurst, we located to these potential victims. He might just figures time to go away and get out of here. And we've been talking about helicopters for years, but they didn't have any of them yet. So you know, I really don't know. He was a tough my roof one night. You don't think it was him?

Road kind of parallels that road, hardly described. Over there was rock miles from the gold drenching days. Used to go facing in the holes over there, perfect place to problem. The whole town is perfect. Probably the kind of area he liked well. And sometime at night, my youngest son, he was not quite five, he came in and woke us up. He was really scared. I remember that. I don't know what he told us. We probably just you

know here, okay. He went to sleep, and the next day he told us he hardly ever slept more than four or five hours and nine he still doesn't. But he's in bed and he looked. He looked out the window and the head hangs down, and he said he only saw it because he had an old bobbing thing on the top of the cape that was wearing and it was bobbing around. The movement caught his eye and the faces all covered and the guy took her flashlight and shined across the room once and then he was gone.

He told me, lady. He says, he was standing on the roof and he's moving all around like he wanted to be heard or something, and we didn't take up. We were just too dead sleeve. This too early in that morning, I can't So the next day he went out and looked in. There was no footprints or anything. But my son is pretty sharp. He's atacted very intelligent. I wish that as smart as he is, he did he did not imagine that at that age. If the guy had come in and talked to me, he could

have held him in a conversation for a while. So we were have some perfect place, but you're like to be. But he was striking over to the west of that part of Cordova that he could have been there very easily. So the question is was it him? I think it was. Did he know who I was? I don't know. I didn't know who he was. I tell you this, if I'd known he was up there, one or two things

would have happened. That hole would have some holes dripped and hands the holes in it miy saturated fay cop in the world would just come to come in quietly and know the guy can see from up there and bring the dog and something he would come back, something would have happened. M I slipped right through it. I can't believe it that what happened? Yeah?

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have a partner. So tell us a little bit about some of these developments and changes in the MO and and how he goes from not confronting people too, doesn't you know now he's confronting partners.

at Orangevale in a gallon. Her boyfriend were in there, and they had her tie him and naturally sud loosely, and he tied her and went back and tied the boy and the boyfriend, and then he took dishes and stacked on his back. I learned that's called the Brazilian tree or Brazilian tea, which it was. And then he would go tack in the other room. He's doing the same thing through his gritted teeth. You know, I just

want your money. You won't be hurt. And he goes in there and he starts talking about oh, threatening, which he'd always always done before he does his ransacking, and every two minutes it's always back in checking on people. Eventually gets the point that he starts trying to act. He's not a very good one. He's in there sobbing a few different times. Once he's founding the forest thing. I hate you, Bonnie, I hate you Bonnie. There might have been Mommy, if she couldn't be sure. And on

more than one occasion he's heard talking to somebody. The only thing there was one much later where the gal said he was in the garage and heard him say put that in the car, And neighbor said they heard that little beating sound of the car door open. So and then when the cops got there, they checked the lights and burnt haunted and the garage. If he had a car and there he put it in there and took it out. He didn't use their car. I think

when the last one's over there. She knew this in the garage, and she thought she heard somebody walking out of the patio. There was one other when in guess the one way the guy said the suspect look at Neanderthal. The car pulled up and honk the horn, and the male victims said, here's the guy go in the backyard. The female said, I heard the horn honk. I think it was twice right, and twice again, and then came back up and knocked on the door and knocked on

the window. Then she heard hush, voices and what I was a female and one had to have been the suspect, and then females gone. A little bit later he was gone too. So there's a couple of times there you can find with this good indication this guy hadn't accomplished, but there's never any real hard fact I would back by then I wouldn't be surprised he didn't have an

accomplice with it, but the deteriorating personality. You know, we my partner girl Biggie, and I were wondering about this guy really going up to the ben killing somebody, because he's making more and more threats and talking to him, Moore was acting even more bizarre. And then I think that's when the office started talking about using psychological terms dealing with homosexual fear of her anger. I thought, remember

what else it was. We also noticed he's becoming less and less capable of performing the sex act, and definitely he was not very much interested in any longer. One gal said he enjoyed tying her up far more than he did anything about sex. More than one said he had no interest in sex at all. It's just kind of what he was doing, just trying to humiliate the guy. I guess if he could cause it a lot of pain anyway, he would do it. But now the moment's hesitation.

When he went down south. The first pedially assaulted down there said he was walking back and forth whispering to himself because either I got to kill him, but we got to kill him. I couldn't kill him. Well, the woman decides lay there and let him on a psychotic cut her throat, so she went out the door, even though she was all tied out, So she went out her went out back door. In the meantime, the bad guy would out the front door and caught her and

brought her back. Then he found it back husband was gone sing up the back door and couldn't find him while he was out there, She went the front door again. This turns out her neighbor is sitting upstairs reading a book facing her house was an MBA agent and he heard some of this sleep had his gun went down there. Anyway, they got kind of a profile shot of the guy and chased him and he got away. But turns out it was probably the Easter rape. And then there's after that.

I think a couple months later he murdered two people from then on he killed everybody. He raped, some didn't rape, he shot some and bludgeoned and just bludged them. I know, he was just having a field day killing the murder in there was this thrill.

went to composite. The very first composite he put out was a literal composite, and the it was compositive composites and discompiled thought of them the guy and any of them did. And then it continued on, and then he started moving to the country across the county Stockton Modesta, and those days he didn't want to hear it. A couple of just flat refused, basically just kicked the investigators out of their office. And now they can get out of here. He's not over here, we're not going to

hear about it. But over there in that area they became really parannoyed. People started really watching. The last one that was intended to be assaulted by this guy, he and his wife made plans just in case, and he woke up and he saw the guy putting on a mask. Well the man saw him, and the man who was about twice understand about twice the size of the suspect and probably could have twisted his head off, but he

didn't do it. But he got that's where the mask, you know, he looked right at him, got out of up close like a couple of feet, and his wife saw the guy when he went out the doors, he saw him in the light, and that's when after that is when he moved down south, because he got some close to getting caught up here. But then they got down there and Bevans and reroutment down there and talked to the Santa Barbara County He's now, that's not the

same guy. Bev's yead Is group disagreed. Well, turns out Bevans is right, and finally they had admitted it was him. And then they had several Santa Barbara, Orange County and Mantua and it wasn't until they got DNA and all of them did those everybodys convinced that it was the same person. The guy would try to, you know, hide his trail, you try to make it look like a or you try to change his m someone. It didn't work. I guess he didn't know enough about DNA at the time.

But they were pretty paranoid. As far as the media, I have no idea what sets about the hurdy bird rapists. They already ever talked about it. He's terry rapist. Hip boom, they they exploded. They were everywhere. So I try. Some people don't know why I didn't pick a point. Media could tell you that.

is right across the street from woman. I forgot her name, but she had something like Karen's poetry reading, poetry reading and poetry room, stuff like that. She says, did I tried to find it. I learned that and then he said to these people, so I don't know, they don't know for a fact it came from the from these day rapist. I personally think it shows a high degree of intelligence, and I don't know that the ear never showed any real strong evidence of intelligence. He's cagy. He

didn't get caught. He didn't get caught because he's smart. People didn't do what they should and people tried to do what they should and messed it up, and it just you know, everything is dispelled his way. But he was casey. He was smart like a fox. Let'll tell you that.

and I'll mention the message board at the end. UH actually turned me onto your book, Richard, and so I just wanted to give him credit for that to alert me to this your your book and this another book because I had covered this case somewhat with Larry Crompton.

And we can talk about that at the end too that his book about this part of this case anyway, But what I was going to say was that one of the things that I found fascinating, and again this amateur sleuth that came out in me, is that there were reports, many reports that he was speaking through clenched teeth, and that some of the victims thought that he was trying to disguise his either high voice, and that there was some talk of maybe having a Mexican accent or

some kind of accent. And then there was often times where it seemed that he stuttered somewhat, or somebody who was trying to suppress a stutter. And I grew up with a guy who was my best friend when I was a kid, And when my friend, who was a real bad stutterer, he would speak in different voices just fooling around on a telephone, and he would not stutter almost at all. In fact, virtually there'd be no stutter

when he did a different voice. So I just thought, as an amateur sleuth, I'd bring out that point for whatever it's worth.

for real or not. They were convinced. He actually started to study a few times in there, and the Mexican accident was picked up two or three times, so it was a physical description and the guy who's had a pot belly then, so he was probably a Mexican just trying to copy somebody. And one victim thought he was black, one thought he was Oriental. They had nothing really to base it on, but essentially he was I gather who this guy was when he went into these places. He

was really scared himself. He was nervous, but until he got them all secured and they couldn't do anything, then he's pretty brave. But he's always trying to disguise his voice somewhat, but there was a couple of them, and everybody said he didn't seem to be taking the voice. He just both real low and almost always threw clinched teeth, I think, And at first one I went to with jan he was doing the same thing. But at one point he kind of started speaking in a normal voice.

The only reason I think he did not have a high pitched voice unless he made it scared. Was that Valiant that those people sold in December seventy six. It was later impounded. They said he had a I think it was well modulated voice. At the fact the report what I wrote in there, I get everything at all, But his voices was not high pitched. He was just he was real reticent. Finally gave him the name. Didn't want to talk about himself and car As. I concerned

that was the serie rapist right there. But he was so peasy I don't think he left mind any kind of evidence.

they decided to put together a small task force. They want to know if I wanted to join it, Well, you have to on call. Reserve means you got to take a test, all kinds of stuff. I wasn't I was going to do that. He is igret about it. A few years later, Russ Ollis, he's a retired special investigat in the federal government, called him. How I got my number? But anyway, I talked to him for a while. Eventually he asked me to right down. I can remember about this stuff, you know, and as I can't, Buddy

else's body so cursed the clear sum isn't. And I ended up typing up about five hundred pages of stuff, and that's the ridiculous, and so I dumped a lot of it. In the meantime, he wanted me to help him go out and get some DNA and some people and do some backgrounds work. And I thought I can't get rid of the damn case, I might as well helped. I think that was two thousand and nine. I got back into it. So we started going from there and that led to this this book. He was part of

the mess the board A and E boards. I think it broke down. They went to another one, but I never visited that board. Me tell me some of the stuff, he said, and I thought, well, there's stuff there that is wrong, this stuff and make it. I was going to give it to somebody, to give to them a chat throughout a week or something like that, and eventually it made a morph into this book. I think half

of it was just I got a kick. I was saying, I'm an author, now, you know, I mean, never intended to be a real big boxer book or anything else. I didn't fool myself with that. But that's what the whole thing was for was to help those people what I call the armchairs sluice, but you know, give them a hand up. But since all that, I've talked to a couple and they know more about the reason livestocker than I do. I know about the first two cases because I was consulted on them and I have the

reports at home. The rest of them I had to find here and they are in the page connect kind of stuff. But they do, they know quite a bit. They got some pretty good theories out there. They got some of the ready whack, and you got some series that no matter what you tell them, they're going to stick with it. You can disprove with all you want, they're going to stay with that one potest.

the same. I know we did that. And the next one there was a woman in her fifties or sixties, and she walked downstairs and this guy is tearing up towels and picking mind and I mean minded, mindfold and she saw him and yelled for her boyfriend upstairs, and and the guy took off for running. I had a big stack what they called I said, city's in there. I must have been fifty of them in that stack.

And she started through it almost immediately picked up handed to miss him that was our pink because she refused to found the complaint. Today, I just say tell the DA you don't put I could find him in arresting and let her and the DA work it out because he was getting ready to assault her. Here's the piece of work.

these crimes. So between the Visalia ransacker, early morning rapists, early bird rapist, and the crimes that are attributed to the East Area rapist, original nightstalker, what is your conclusion or conclusions regarding give us some of the conclusions.

and to a cement. Bitch, okay, if that was him, that's say he was seventeen years old. There was four assaults in that general area, like within a dozen blocks. I guess there's also a lot of apartment buildings. He could have lived there and one of them he tried to He did assaulted woman, but she managed to get away. Last time the guy was seen his walking down the street half naked. By the way, his legs were tanned, but his butt was just no white. So we know

that goes out in the sun. He be gone there, or he could have had a car bicycle down there, which is normally did and gone off, except you don't know could I mean, he could have been in the military. He could when the right age had just gotten in. He did his stint and asked what he was station at MAK Then you go on when you follow these through, the typical I should say the average description is the physical is the same.

a couple of times. I think once is the takedask for blouse and I can't be sure that any or it's been so long, so you go along with that and he describe really is there's a lighteens early twenty s possibility military. A couple of times he see him a military posture. I saw a guy one night that

it probably was him. He had military posture. And other times he kind of slouch and then he starts moving out of the area and goes away, and then the script starts changing a little bit, and then he started getting and all these there's two or three cans of soda or something nearby. Then he goes over to count Acosta County. He goes over to Santa s. Davis and Yellow County, and he stocked him a desperately bounces all around the place. But once he leaves here, I should

back up. There was five military Basis three and Sacramento two, but in an hour's drive hour or less, he could have been any one of those places, plus the military reserve. Once he leaves here. None of his victims have anything to do with the military here. About half of them did it with Sunstandable. All of them has do the real estate when they were here, at least that I can determine some up in just no way of knowing.

Now when he leaves here, no military, but just connection for the medical like visiting pharmacies and visiting a medical employee in the family, that kind of thing. But no military again. And then he goes down south and you have the real estate and the medical. There's there's nothing else down there. So if I was going to look at real estate, I think I mentioned all ago. I wouldn't look at lenders, excuse me. I would look at the praisers. But there's no way to figure out who

they were. Insurance companies. One insurance company it was Frederick Sauer's Long Long s A U D R. Take a R E R. They're long out of business for guys long gone. Two of the victims down south. I had a policy with that company. The companies based out of Stockton, and we ran every weigh in the world. And you know nothing, nothing at all, but I mean, and there's no way to touch it as far as I know, they had no power see the anybody up here. It could be just a pure coincidence. So where he worked

I don't know. But you can pick any crime you want, put up the details and go from there forwards and backwards, thinking the details and check them out, and you'll start connect with ideas. I don't think he drove a cab. I don't think he drove a tow truck twice once it came out. Oh more than thirty years after the sacking guy, he says, oh, I say about this what he saw, and he described the guy taking and when

I thought he was the car salesman. Investos was on duty one night and he saw these cops park around Fourth Parkway. He seemed the last, oh not the last, but the sexual assault by the ear and then he runs into a car and has an encounter with it, and it really bothered him. He didn't know till later about this break down there. He would have stopped that car, but he said, it's like a car salesman. And he was wearing a coat and tie at five o'clock in

the morning hit downtown sack. So when he was hurting all these crimes, that is opening and closing his bags. He could have been changing close. I don't know what he was doing. They wandered at the time if he just sat a palsekeeping somewhere, you know what. Everything he took, and usually he didn't always take stuff with value, but sometimes you might. He took fourteen or sixteen hundred dollars in one victim, and he took dime wedding rings off

and the other one. Sometimes he takes stuff with diet. Most time he didn't. Just no way you know what's going on that guy's head, No way at all. But speaking that book was to say here, everybody, you got the same information we had. In fact, one person emailed me says, well, you know, but what after some conclusion, I said, I don't know. I wrote this is we have so now you can draw the same figures we did. Figure where you go.

almost caught him, but lost him. He's thinking, this guy is probably good for all of these, so he gave me his name, so he's going to check to see if he had been in the tophel of that night of that assault. I gave it to the detective thread Basin, and don't forget, I wasn't running that task force. I was running my own thing. I gave it to him and made a report and he went off to ray Ruder whoever got it, and Bason checked into it. What happened was this cow As it turns out, she owned

the house whereon the Dale saw it went down. She sold it herself and two people showed up, one named Parker, and they said, other guy, whatever the name I gave him in there, he's long bed by the way and has been cleared. They showed up, not together. Both of them said they worked for I think it was American River Realty. I didn't think of it must have existed. But the one guy, she thought that was odd because

both came the same company. And this one guy didn't make an appointment, and he walked around, looked right outside, got inside and didn't look at the things at the prospective for agents can we look at He's very interested in her schedule of her husband and daughter, and whenever she tried to look him in the eyes, he couldn't. He just glared at her. He's scared real bad. Well, Mason ran it down. He found out that need did. One of these guys worked for the American River Reality.

They worked for American River Development or some development company long gone. And they found out where the one guy's I think we're we're living where his car was and I couldn't find any more reports but asking oh for a year or so ago when it came up, and

he didn't remember what he did with it. It was lost interesting got transferred to something I don't know, but anyway, modern detectives ran the guy down and they eliminated him because I was looking for it and I couldn't find more than a few people in the entire country with his name. And about two or three years ago we had a sister and ex wife and several ex wives

still living, and I never contacted. I thought out from the homicide detectives they had eliminated him already, but he really was a strange But I don't know what they did about partner, even tentified him or not, but that I think that's the what he's.

there and you want to fall him around along. Then you can see him sit down and need a hamburger and jacosoda and toss the straw into the garbage can. You walk over and if you know you can spot which one it is, you can grab that and do that. Or you always go out and get the garbage can tonight and you don't know who the evident DNA you're getting could be anybody's. Those are the only three ways

you're to get them. But down south to the murders that the vision lifetocker did the brother and one of the victims was the I think his lawyer, it's pretty wealthy. He spent about million dollars. He finally got Proposition sixty nine passed. So anybody that's I think is convicted of

a telony has to give up their DNA. And how many times they have to resulted in that case being cleared, I don't know, but it's been a few times DNA once you get the DNA, because they got a loan file everywhere, and the FBI has to and now and then they kind of picked and nose in and see if they can help a little bit. And they ran this guy's DNA here DNA through some kind of a program. They taking about four hundred hips, came back with none

about money. Yet this guy's family does not have their DNA hunt file anywhere.

think he's very much alive. He's very much around. He's very much monitoring these boards anything else you can find it fieesus ego, which is one of the things that bothered me about writing this book. But he's there. He's not dead. I don't think he's handicapped either. I talked about how circumstances around Russ Hollis's house the kate very much that the year was messing around over there for a while. In it tied end with his contact and

the suspect that we're investigating. And as soon as we've got the suspect, DNA eliminated him. All that stuff stopped. So we've got to be a connection there. But that that t OI, they call it person of interest. He's not really cooperating. So we know who he went to school, and I got a whole list of their names. They read one down. He's a doctor now I don't know where the others are.

it over to the local cup. I think in the book I have a website mentioned in their email link.

a very large book. I think it's around five hundred pages so, and what happened in Sacramento he has reports down pretty good, but the rest of it is just pure speculation. He doesn't know that he had my name in here now, I mean where he got it, and he had me doing a public speech or something, which I'm not really going to do. And then he goes

on from there and he does the same thing. And when I did mine, I put leads or tips information developed well first and around the sacrament And when I was at all I put in stuff he coudn't possibly know about. I drew that picture of the office and the house, what was happening and so forth. And then in the cases I got the same thing he does. I don't go in details of the sex acts because, like I say, in there, if you're interested, if I

carry is excitement, go somewhere else. I'm simainly not going to get in and all this thing. Somebody described it as not being salacious. That works for me. But all the information, the prowlers and that kind of stuff I've done at all. Right, And then I go down to original life stocker and I don't if I should have put.

in the construction. In fact, I had one guy it really sounds good, and he's somewhere in Utah now if I don't know where, and he's connected the construction down in southern California. I'd like to get his DNA. Nobody's got sons around here, but I don't know if they got the same father. It's a strange thing to say, but the fact, and I don't know how much my book has contributed to impacted in desication associally. If you don't know, to help me a little bit with some information that comes in.

What has this case again, I'm sorry for this sort of cliche question, but what has this case done for you?

rid of this. I might help him wh and get rid of it writing the book, and they put it all back together and get it perspective again. And now and then I'll think of something that I should have put in there, I shouldn't have put in there. But I just really really want to see this guy caught. The people I worked with in the last three years probably poured them and died. I rapidly, you know, I'm right up there almost as those as they are. The ones who win are eve older. I guess, so I

pretty much get done. Somebody kissed this pastor let me know who he is. But the one favor I want when they arrest him. I want to be there when they put the handcuffs on. I want to test them to see if they're a good This is yeah.

to be what the year they're thinking about. If you go back and look at some of those age descriptions, I think eight hay ninety years old today. Right the guys alive, do.

that near Coil Avenue. Coil sem One Avenue was the Mercy Samuin Hospital. There's a big area there and he never struck in there, no prowling or anything in there. Well, that was what other thing I didn't We just learned recently to take Clark to homicide and sacramental figuring this out. I knew the guy prowled day and night. It seemed like, you know, he was always out there. But he might prowl a tonight. Come on, he goes there, you'd be

the next night. C he goes back there and does assault, and they think goes there were the d We did it every night, and I don't know, but he didn't prowl the same area every night. And sometimes he did, sometimes he didn't. He just didn't have that much continuity. But he did bounce around, and I'm pretty sure I know how I picked some of his sickness.

some of the victims and their loved ones. So it would be a great happy ending to a very very tragic story.

how other people felt. And it is a bygone time where a past time where technology wasn't there, intercommunication between departments wasn't there. The idea that you understood serial killers was of course not well known.