HOW TO CATCH A KILLER-Katherine Ramsland

the capture of a serial killer are the same. Sometimes the killers make crucial mistakes, other times investigators get lucky, and the process of profiling, hunting, and apprehending these predators has changed radically over time, particularly in the field of criminal forensics, which has exploded in the last ten to

fifteen years. Laser ablation, video spectral analysis, cyber sleuthing, and even DNA based genetic genealogy are now crucial tools in solving murders, including the recent capture of the so called Golden State Killer. This book, in the new Profiles and Crime series, tells the story history of forensics through the capture stories of some of the most notorious serial killers

going back almost a century. The killers include Rodney al Keala, a serial rapist and murderer sometimes called Dating Game Killer for his appearance on that TV show No One Knows the exact number of his victims, ziro Shira Rishi, the suicide killer from Zama, Japan, who dismembered nine victims and stored their bodies in his refrigerator. Aleen Warnos one of the rare female serial killers. She shot seven men in

Florida and was turned in by an accomplice. Jeffrey Dahmer, the Milwaukee Cannibal, and Bobby Joe Long, both identified by survivors Ted Bundy and David Berkowitz, son of Sam, who both made mistakes. Ludwog Testnau, who killed several children in Germany, was caught through new methods in forensic investigation that could distinguish human from animal blood. The book they were featuring

this evening is How to Catch a Killer. Hunting and Capturing the World's Most Notorious serial Killers with my special guest journalist and authorman, Professor Katherine Ramslin. Welcome back to the program and Thank you so much for this interview. Katherine Ramslin, Hi, thanks.

over the world. We had to really the most probably the most cases have any database on that and that just that book came out in November, and I worked with Greg McQuary on a book of his cases. I was about to work with Bob wrestlers when he got sick, and then unfortunately he passed away, so I didn't get to do work with him, but I interviewed him, I interviewed case.

and the Golden State killer in that first part. In part two it's police procedure, and you list the cannibal killer, the killer clown, the dating game killer, the slave master, the ABC killer, the hanging pro, the grudge collector, the choke and stroke killer, and you have Part three Mistakes and Calculations, The Chicago Scamera, the Moor's Murderers, the Cross Country Chameleon, the Classified ad Rapist, the Bundy Wannabee, the

chessboard Killer, the Grinder Killer, and Part four is witness Reports, The soap Maker of Corregio, Son of Sam, the Nightstalker, the man Eater any Morenos, The Milwaukee Monster and the Lettterm of Jitas. Part five you title itself Surrender, the candy Man's Apprentice, the co Ed Killer, and the Angel of Death, and then your brief summary. Let's go to

the Footpath Killer and what it demonstrates. Let's take us to November twenty first, nineteen eighty three and Leicester County, England and Linda Mann, who's fifteen years old and has a friend named Karen. Can you tell us a little bit about the footpad killer.

this case qualified as serial murder. There were two victims, two young girls, taking what they call it like a footpad or a footpath to these small British villages, English villages, and they were three years apart. But the investigators thought it was probably the same person who had killed both

of them, although they couldn't be certain of that. And around the same time, and this is in the forensic innovation section, So around the same time, Sir Alec Jeffries was doing work on DNA analysis and he had done some paternity testing for people who are you know, wanting to prove their parentage. And he had made a speech and the chief of the the investigator and his footpad murders, heard about read about a newspaper and he contacted Jefferies and asked, you know, would you be in tested in

doing some murder cases. And Jeffers had not thought about that, but he was either to test his procedure on those cases. Now they had a suspecting custody who had confessed to one of the Christs but not the others. Submitted his samples to Jefferson, and Jeffrey came back and said, Wow, the good news is that it is the same guy for both. The bad news is it's not the guy confessed. So it actually seen the first DNA generation in history.

It was the first DNA dragonet because they began taking food samples from all the men at a certain age and empoys with a certain age from the villages and a few nearby areas looking for the person. And this is obviously a very expensive procedure at that time. But it turned out that it was a guy, Colin Pitchfork, who had paid someone else to take the test for him. But that person started talking to other people at a

you know, a gathering pubs and was overheard. Police ended up with the information and they brought Colin Pittsford in and turned out here with the guy. So it changed investigation forever around the world pretty quickly. Because DNA was an amazing tool. It didn't go uncontested, of course, you know, defense attorneys immediately found all kinds of issues with you know, the collection of it at crime scenes and some of the claims being made some of the statistical analyzes and

they were right. But it still is the most tested, the most rigorous tool that we currently have for crime investigation. If DNA is left unseen, certainly not all crimes will have DNA. So that's a common misperception of the public because they just think, oh, I don't intersue DNA and

everything because you know, we don't have it. So but it did change everything, and so that's obviously a case I would have wanted in the forensic innovation section, and another one in there, you know, proceeds with the with the forensic genealogy, you know, all a DNA type of testing because the Golden State killer, which you know has gained a lot of uh PRESS, was identified this way. So that's a new innovation that grew out of the kinds of things they've done with DNA over the years.

They keep they keep perfecting it, they keep changing some of the ways they approach it so that they can get increasingly smaller samples. You know, we have touched DNA. So back in the in the pitchfort days, all they had was you had to have a sample around the

sizeable I think it was a nickel. But now obviously, you know, we're much more sophisticated, but at the same time, the potential for corruption of samples is high, much higher than it used to be, because if you have touch DNA, you know, there are so many people who could potentially handle a sample or could potentially have touched the same area where a killer or a rapist has touched. So

there's still our complications. It's not a one hundred share proof method, but it's certainly better than anything else we have.

the ABC Killer. Tell us a little bit about Victoria Johannesburg in July and October nineteen ninety four, and what you've learned from this story, what this story of the ABC Killer demonstrates.

these linked. It turns out that they had really a lot of serial killers around this particular times, had several subjects and what was a really good one who ended up not being the guy but he was you know, logic would say, and even his own profession would say

that he was the person, but he wasn't. It turned out to be a man named was the Sithole who really had perfected this way of I mean, he knew that there were a lot of young women who were looking for work because it was a time of social unrest and high unemployment and you know, a lot of needs. So he presented himself as a man who was able to get them jobs, and he dressed ensued. He was very you know, not what you ordinarily think of these

serial killers. He presented himself in a way that not only did he seem to these women to be a source of potential future employment for even moments because he was good luck to die, and so they very easily went with him, and he would say things like I want to take you out and show you where I'm going to be building a big factory. So they would go with him, walking in isolated places where then that

was his killing ground. He could easily kill them and dump the body right there with all the other bodies. So it's kind of I mean, it's surprising them. It's not a more well known case, I think, because the number of bodies in each of these areas and they

were pretty accessible, they weren't that isolated. So it shows you also, at again the time of social unless, how the police weren't really even investigating many of these women disappearing, and it really took a very focused, concentrated task force to do this. They brought in Robert Restler from the FBI who he was sort of mentoring a young woman who was getting her PhD I think in forensic psychology

she was. She had already been doing some profiling, so she asked them to bring him in because this is this is really a massive undertaking. So he came in. He had their dishes of the areas where they had done these victims. They called the ABC killings, even though it's not that clear whether it actually was A B and C, but it was for the names of the town for the dump sites were near, and so he went in and he helped her make this profile and turned out to be mostly sithole. So I just think

I've always thought that was an interesting case. We kind of had this issue with the media of not covering crimes that are black serial killers or Hispanic serial killers, minorities. We tend not to put as much emphasis on those and even on females as we do on white males, and in particular in America. So I hear things like, you know, they're just don't just send the serial killers anymore. But in fact they're just not being covered by the media.

We certainly have them that they're also top. They're also coming up in many other countries that didn't used to have these kinds of organized focused investigations and they didn't record people as serial killers, but now that's changing. So it's very difficult to really stay from one decade to another, from one country to another, who has the most or when we're the most, also in part because of the

evolving definition of a sterio killer. But we certainly evans and especially as we get more sophisticated technology, more sophisticated recording of crime and linking them to offenders, we're certainly seeing a lot more of that. But we are definitely seeing them among minorities as well. And in this case, I think because Moses Fithole was black, it just didn't make the news the way I think internationally, the way I think it probably should have.

of these killers. It's astonishing. I think mods of Sitthole, you know, is an interesting one even among all those for you know, the ways he operated. But I think I also wanted to bring attention to you know, look at this time period. It's really astonishing how many stereo murderers were operating in this area at those times, and often you know, not apprehended for a while because it just wasn't the policing, you know, support system as there.

You know, there eventually was. But I wanted him to be situated in a sociological period to show us not just the developmental trajectory of the sterial killer, but also the social components of it. I think he's he's perfectly situated to demonstrate that. And I think I don't really think all serial killers have something of that in the

way they developed. I mean, I think you can kind of see that I have the choken stroke killer, you know, the guy who's claiming over one hundred, you know, and he'll talk about how he looked around for marginalized and that he knew or police wouldn't investigate very much. And I then he then he moved around from place to place, very easily escaping because he knew the investigation wouldn't go

on for very long. The resources just wouldn't be put into something like you know, blacks, you know, sex workers, and you know, some small town in Florida or Louisiana. So he tapped into conditions that he thought would support his ability to succeed. And even though we haven't yet you know, corroborated all the claims he's making, he certainly got to win a lot of murders because he looked at what was what was in his best interest. So that's also very interesting. I do want the book, even

though it's a it's thirty distinctly different cases. I do want the book to show the the larger so theological impacts. Sometimes even politics are involved. Sometimes it's about the nature of journalism. For example, with the jack Umzerbaker case in Austria, we had a group of elite journalists who you know, we're reading the works. He already was in prison for a murder and in life for life? What they were reading things that he was writing. Personally, I don't think

they were that rip. I translated some of them and it's just a whiny psychopath basically. But they've got me. You know that Art had cured him, and they to use political persuasion to get him sprung, whereupon he immediately began to murder in three different countries, including the United States, and took advantage of the fact that people thought, wow, you know he's a journalist, you know, and actually he was hired to cover these crimes because not only was

he a writer, but he was a murderer. Who better to cover murders these murders, said, someone like him. So he was given an assignment, for example, to come to Los Angeles and he went to the police department and said, you know, I'm writing about sex workers here at Los Angeles, where would I go? And they took him down the shi because the idea was a journalist to doing this, it's certainly not a serial killers. Well they were wrong.

The Austrian literary were wrong. Arts is not pure a psychopath and as a result, you know, ten more women were dead. So yeah, I'm keeping around a lot because I don't know. But there are themes that wink all these cases in terms of how many of these predators voided conditions to operate as successfully as they could.

Gagey are among those. They know how to present themselves to allay suspicion, to make it seem as if they, you know, are like I guess Bundy is a good example. You know, bright young for looking law students, psychology majors. You know, how could that be SIA killers? Well, they can be. And I think we've developed a number of strange myths about seria killers that actually assist them in

getting away with what they do. For example, Demons Trader one of the cases where police were actually out looking for a missing woman that he had just murdered, and he has used an overnight camping boy Scout camping saying where he was a volunteer kid used that being his advantage by when he encountered the police officer who was looking for you know, the guy, he talked a lot about the fact that, oh, you know, she said the boy scout camp out and and you know, because he

knew that there's no way they're going to suspect him or look in his car, which would have been incriminating because he's a Boy Scout volunteer. But you know what, he's not the only Boy Scout volunteer that we've had who ended up actually being a predator and a killer. So one of the reasons I actually wrote the book on Denis Rader with him was to offer it as a cautionary tale for police to not buy into some of these myths, because killers who were very good at

this use the myths. There's a hitch and had that officer just did his job that he was supposed to do, regardless of you know, the whole boy scout persona, he would have found things that that day, and he didn't because he accepted, you know, we had I had another one. He's not the book, but he this is in France in the late nineteenth century. He convinced he was I had been in the army, and so he always wore

his some of his regalia from the military. So once police stopped him often they also had found the background too. So he exploited that to talk about, you know, our cobradship. You know, obviously I can't be a good killer you're looking for because we both served in the military, and they bought and let him go.

That's Chumbuck Casino dot com.

So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to claim your free welcome bonus that's Chumbuck Casino dot com and live the Chumba.

There's a there's a forest where it's called the Hanging Forest. Has other institute, but it's like a suicide shrine. Around the world, we have these these places that people gravitate to to give it suicide, like volcano of tall buildings, bridges, things like that. But there's this be hanging forest if one of them. And so there's this odd romanticism among young people and some young people in Japan forces and there were online groups of offering support. So talk about clever.

What a clever way to find victims is to pretend that you are going to you know, help them and even tell yourself with them so they won't be alone, which is what some of them would say they were

looking for. So the potential victims would post on these suicide chats and websites, I'm looking for someone to you know, go into a suicide packed with me, or to help me cruz this and you know, and to be fair, also, Japan has set up counselors for this to to go through these sites and try to talk to these people out of it. It's not like there's just no regulation at all. But you know, some of intended suicide for

whatever reason, we'll find ways typically to do it. So he's both of these these guys, but the one I particularly focused on with Sharashi would present themselves as you know, yeah, i'll help you. Arrashi would would you know, he's kind of uh, you know, unprepossessing kind of guy who didn't seem at all threatening, and he would you know, talk about, oh, yeah, I completely understand what you're going through and what you're what you want to do, and you know, I'm willing

to help you. And so he would have them come to his house and then kill them there, but he didn't and it was like a small wonderom apartment would He really didn't think this through very well. She had no way to really disclose of the bodies, and so he would dismembered them. He kept some of them in coolers or his refrigerator or something like that. They were kind of piling up, and so he'd turned on, you know, fans what thatten. The neighbors began to know the like,

my guy, what's going on in that place? The smells were more horrible as the body parts began to decomposed, And also he wasn't very careful about it, but he

was doing. At one point a friend of one of the victims that she accompanied her and was you know, I didn't want her to die, and he was kind of suspicious of this whole setup, so you know, when she disappeared, he obviously had some some inkling of where she might have disappeared too, and so that the case essentially, but eventually, you know, the police would have just because of what a nuisance this place was, which now was horrifying.

And this is the case in which I think the guy actually just wanted it to be over because he really hadn't thought it true and although he was getting, to say, the sexual thrill out of the his ability to bring these women under his control really overall and he just couldn't keep going this way. He also himself had said too, I think his father, that he wanted

to commit suicide. So I think he already had that kind of sensibility and was able then to talk to these young women about you know, how he had been feeling, so he exploited that. And yeah, I think that's one of, in my opinion, one of the most unique cases in the book of being killers, the way he approached them.

was absurd. And it turned out with Henry V. Lucas that after these Texas lawmen had gotten all these confessions and closed cases in nineteen states, and Lucas said, well, never, Josh, I didn't kill all those people. And he described how he had manipulated the officer's desire to close their cases by getting them to tell him a lot of details so that he would just spend it back to them.

He drew a lot of pictures of these victims, he was allowed to look at all kinds of newspaper reports, and it turned out to be a major scan and a big disappointment as well as a huge embarrassment to Texas law enforcement because in the end, he was only convicted of one murder, and even that one turns out was very unlikely to have been a victim of his and he probably you know, killed you know, a DOZM, maybe more, but certainly not anywhere near the true Haddred

plus that he claimed. So I thought the Sam Little case was very interesting because again it's a Texas ranger who begins to approach him. The ranger heard about this case.

I think he was at a conference where someone one of the BYCAPS, the violent Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, that one of the BYICAP technicians had been talking about the potential that they might have a bidance committed a number of of cases which were currently insolved in various states, and he had been caught and would have been processed in California. So the ranger decided he had some of

these cases. He decided to go talk to Sam Lowell, and Lila was saying, you know, he was innocent, even the ones that he was getting convicted of, he was completely innocent. They were wrong. He was being very staggered about giving us any of the details. But this this ranger was you know, had the right approach. He plattered him, he talked about you know, his artwork, et cetera, and Little by Lily went him over and little began to make these drawings again, very much like Kenry v. Lucas.

So you know, that's a lot of red flags there. You know, another another case of a guy confessing to you know, dozens and dozens of murders and drawing these pictures of victims. Some of the ones he confessed to just couldn't be corroberated. There were no reports there were

four years ago. Very little was done to do the investigations, and that became again a big issue with the police maybe just not doing their jobs because they were sex workers, you know, black sex workers, drug addicts and things like that that sometimes just don't get the resources devoted to them because they're high risk victims. You know, they put themselves out into a space where a killer could come along very easily, and you know, it could just be

a stranger, transient you know, could take or whatever. It's very hard to really follow through on some of these cases. So that's that's for the cops to work out, not me. However, and Little had been a boxer. He had these huge hands and he would entice these women, tell them they're beautiful, make them feel good, and you know, really put them off their guard, and then take one of the smiths and just slam it into them and either knock them

out or even kill them and then choke them. He's called the Chilken stroke killer because he could actually choke them with one hand while he's masturbating with another. Because he had these massive hands and he needed he had a particular what we call it paraphilia or a sexual deviance. He needed that kind of his hands around their necks to be aroused. And this was traced back to childhood where he would see a you know, a woman's neck

and that around him. So he had that fetish particular body parts and that's what he would do he claims to do. Again, we haven't corroborated all of the incidents that he has discussed, and he he's ill. I'm not even sure he remembers all the details. But he has made quite a few drawings that kind of lost track of how many, but he's made quite a few drawings of the women he claims that were his victims. He traveled around the country very transient, so that ultimated difficult

for police. There have been a few in Ohio, which is where he lived for a while. There have been a few cases in Ohio now attributed to him as well, But the investigation in that case continues. So the point at which my book stops, and I think I've stopped writing and editing it around November last year, the point at which my books obviously, that's as far as I

go with that case. But I think anyone can look it up, the same little case and find out what more is being done, because the FBI, by CATS personnel are really trying to pieces all together, and I'm sure more has been done even since November of last year that is not documented in my book, but it's He's a black serial killer, so unusual, and his approach to victims was very savvy for a guy with little education, so he he brings up this notion that I've been

asked about and I actually teach about, which is criminal intelligence versus the typical type of IQ that you would consider with normal IQ instruments like the you know, the WATS lower intelligence sets that most people use these days. Criminal streets marsh is what it often is called. But I actually I think we should have an instrument called

the c IQ, which I mean, he's sick. The c IQ would be criminal intelligence because I think we'll see things like Gary Ridgway, for example, the Green River Killers not very bright on IQ tests, actually quite below average, but wow smart, very smart about his crime. And I think Sam Will is similar in that he really has a way of finding victims who are going to respond to him, knew how to get them to respond and

and kill them now. He I think he made a couple of statements about victims like they now and I was really doing them for mercy, you know, that kind of idea. But there was one woman who I think I mentioned, who had just gotten off the Plus and he met her the bus station, and she's just gotten divorced and was feeling a very good about starting her life over, and he killed her. So some of the things he has to say, like any of these credators,

is mixed with lies and self serving statements. I mean, we can talk a lot about Danni Trader in that respect, because I've spent five years working with him on his autobiography, and you know, a lot of what he had to say was to self serving. I think we have to expect that because primarily they're narcissists who are always looking to their own advantage, who often will blame the victims

for coming into their webs. And you know, most of them are just, in my opinion, losers who were smart enough to figure out how to do it and get away with it for often long periods of time.

when they're actually murdering people. Rater for a very short period of time, talked about being seven possessed, but that was really the influence of the minister who came to visit him shortly after his arrest, and he thought, well, that sounds as good as anything else, so I'll use that for, you know, a while. But he quickly dropped that when when I came into the picture, because I

like and apply that whatever I think. Son of Sam also did the whole demon possessed dog things and again dropped that when when the profile is wrestler and Douglas went in to see him thepah, we don't buy that. Hecause, okay and just start talking to them normally, but I think it's always easier sometimes to them once they're caught, to say there was some other force, you know. Bundie said. I don't remember if Casey actually took that turn, but it's a popular thing for these killers to just okay.

came over me, some dissociated state came over me. And I have no doubt frankly that it is a dissociated state, but that doesn't make it in any way psychotic or supernatural. All of us who daydream know what it is to be in a dissociated state, because that's a day dreaming

is our consciousness allows us to do that. They take further and really lose themselves, submerge themselves in this completely eroticized sense of dominating and taking the life from another human being, and even those for whom the act of murder isn't the erotic thing. Like maybe like Todd Coulhas, Let's say, who murdered people because he was just an angry guy. He just was angry, but he also got an erotic drill from the idea that he could do

and get away with it. So sometimes it's the actual murder, like the stroke and the Chilken Struck Killer, that's the erotic part. Sometimes it's the dominating, Sometimes it's torturing them. Sometimes it's about sexual assault and rape and then the murder. It's just too eliminate witnesses. I think that was probably the case with Jasey, at least for some of them. So, but there's always some kind of erotic components, and it's very easy to take this step to say I was

completely out of myself. It was a dissociated state because they're so fully engulfed in this experience.

was fully investigated. Mostly that was just a lot of the superstition. But there were a number during the nineteen eighties and he's mid nineteen eighties, there were a number of occultic oriented types of crimes. So the newspapers would pick up on, you know, anything that seemed to be a Celtic and so I think he sort of played

with that. I think it was fun for him. There certainly were aspects of his development that I think primes can for some kind of religious worship, for sure, and he had experienced I think was a cousin murdering a woman right in front of him. He certainly had some traumatic aspects of his development. But I think the whole satanic aspect that he continued through his life, I mean, he had he had that. If you wrote to him in prison, you know, he made you say it would

be part of this whole estate thing. At least some people wrote to him were ordered to do that. But I think it was more something he adopted than something that actually motivated him. So he would leave the satanic symbols, you know, in victims' homes. I think one was even drawn on a victim, but that just gave him a sense of identity. I think he started killing simply, and I don't even know all of his victims. I think there were a few early on. It's that he suspected of.

I think one was a child that so it could just be he was. He was this guy who just started killing people and then adopted the whole persona because he really liked the nightstalker image of him creeping into houses and he liked the idea he's scaring people like that. But how much of that was really satanic worship, I don't know. I think that's Dona then a real motivator.

and people backed away from him. But this was something he had to keep hidden. Wendy was actually rested, so he's been two different people for twelve years. So maybe that's the span of his killing or who knows. We don't know because he committed suicide. So I guess I

should have said spoiler alert. But anyway, he was interesting in that he had studied at the Serial Killers, but in particular kind of thing for Ted Bundy, because Bundy was a cross country killer, very mobile, and he thought Bundy had made some very clear errors in gasping up and with credit cards where he left a trail that helped police to hone in on him as as a good suspect in some of the killings in Colorado and Utah. Right, So, Keys thought Bundy had made some errors and he wanted

to be like Bundy, but without those miss sakes. So he had no victim type, and actually Bundy claims he didn't either. He was just always looking for women's college aged type of women because he liked the assueming of domination. But he also took victims of opportunity that weren't in any way. It wasn't girls with long dark hair cards in the middle. If you look at his entire rate, short hair hair on the side, blonde, you know, curly. Even he said, I don't know what people are talking

about with that, but anyway, that's funny. So back to injury. He had no victim type. What he wanted to do was he would slide some places, often brought a bank, buy some items that he put into into these buckets like home depot buckets that could be sealed and buried and inside these kids who were things he would use later to kill and you know, dispose of a victim in some way. So he had a gun, he had you know, rope or shovel, you know, collassible shovel and

things that he knew that he would need. And then he'd go away and not come back for a while. So whatever security videos at the store where he bought the items or at the bank, all of that would no longer be useful. And then he and I'm just telling you what he said he did. We don't know that any of the ever actually happened. So he said that he would then wait for he'd go to make a cemetery or a or a hiking trail or some isolated plays, and he grabbed the first person who came along,

killed them, bury them, and move on. And that way he would never be traced or associated with that victim. But the weird thing is the three that we actually know about. One of the cup in Burlington, Burlington, Vermont, which he didn't realize was Ted Bundy's birthplace, so so much for being you know, a fanboy head Bundy. He was surprised when he found that out. Anyway, he killed a couple in Burlington, only because he had missed doing his typical thing because it was raining, one was out,

and he just decided he wanted to kill somebody. So he killed this couple and then stupidly last the newspaper items on his laptop, which he had made a rule against ever doing, but he did it. And then he

went back to Alaska where he lived. He had a girlfriend, a daughter, and he took he kidnapped a young barista, Samana Samtha Konik, out of one of these these late night coffee stand This is very elaborate thing where he took her bank cards and again breaking his own rules, he took her bank card, he raped and killed her, left her body in a shed on his girlfriend's property. Weirdly, went at a cruise with his daughter for ten days, came back, posed Namantha's body with a newspaper to make

it look as if she were still alive. He taped her eyes open and all that, and then he began to collect money out of her bank account. But he at that point had flown to Arizona, took money out of a bank there an atm he made a rental car. So that's what he would do he rent his cars with cash, so again he can't betrayed. Some false names and whatnot, but he made a mistake. The ATM had caught a part of the rental parts so they could

figure out what kind of part was on color. Now, the police didn't know he was switching at rental cars, but when he did do that, he had to see cheap color again. So even though he could have boiled the police by getting a different kind of car, he didn't do that. He ended up I guess it was Texas. He went to a wedding at his sister's wedding and the Texas you know, law enforcement was alerted to the kind of car to be looking for. They found it,

they were able to pull him over. Again broke several rules of his He had his gun ready to hand so he could kill himself if he were ever arrested, but the gun was out of his reach. So he also had Samantha Conics, bank cards, license, a few other things that linked him to the Alaska clime. He had the Burlington murders on his computer. All of these so called mistakes that he claimed ted Bundy made, clearly Bundy was far superior to israel Keys and getting away with things. Now.

A lot of people think he then bantered with his interrogators too, you know, each one to make a deal, you know, kill me within you know, have me executed within a year. Don't let this week out to the press because I don't want my daughter to hear about it. And I will give you eight more. So instead of saying okay, just lying. And I think in part that was because the DA took over and he wasn't really

allowed to offer a deal like that. So unfortunately, the probably could have gotten if there are a victims, they probably could have gotten them. And then told them, oh, sorry, we can't do that. But they dickered around with him. He wasn't giving up any more details, and finally he decided just to kill himself. So we have these potential eight victims out there, but I kind of wonder if there are eight there there might be a few more. But she did such a bad job. It's the final three.

I really wondered that he was so good at the at the earlier ones. I just don't know. He could have easily been making stuff up. Who knows, because they do a lot of serial killers will talk to many more murders than they've actual done. I have no idea, we don't know, and I think that so far there has been only one other murder potentially linked to him that looks pretty good but not provable. So why do I like him? I like him because what a unique idea,

even though I didn't pull it off very well. The unique idea to just have no association with the victim, no victim type, no real clear motive that we know of, and just traveling using cash, rabbit banks, doing all these things to make sure there was no trail. It was very very clever and unique. You know, is serial pillar lore? This this is a very unique approach.

Someone told me it close. But at the time they had all these amazing displays of Italian crimes and there was her, you know, big kettle where she had cooked flesh, her you know, all these crime tools she had used. Was this big display, and I had not heard of her before. I had spot wow, this astonish when I looked at her cakes. So she was this woman in Italy who got her mother had not wanted her, his terrible relationship with them mother, she vowed she will never

be like that. She got married, she had a lot of children, but a fortune teller told her that they all would die before her, which horrified her, and as a matter of fact, they began to die one after another, and she just thought, she's got to figure out some way to appease the supernatural forces that for some reason had it in for her. And when her son, her oldest son said he was going to go out and join Lussolini's army. She thought, oh my god, that's high risk.

There's no way he want to survive that. I have to do something. So she began to and she was a She would make these tea cakes and soaps and candles to sell out of her shop. So that was how she helped to support herself. She have this plan that she could buy her son's life by sacrificing another one. So she created this. She knew over a woman who who I think it was, was a match maker thing. Another one was getting her employment in another town. I

think this is the long for employment. And he wasn't her friends, but she invited them to her house three different and present occasions, three different people. She invited them to her house to, you know, help them pack up. Get ready. She said, write write letters to everybody that you know. Tell them you found a job or you found you know, a role band in some other city, and that you're not from your back, you're happy. Write all these letters. I'll mail them for you. Any job.

Someone says that to you, that's a red flaighte uh. John Robinson did the same thing. By the way write all these letters I'll mail before you, And then she would see them drugged wine or tea or something, they passed out. She killed them, dragged them in fishing, take off all the limbses never then be had them take all the flesh up. She drained the blood onto pans to bake into a hard substance that she could grind down into a flower that she then used to make

these teacakes. The flesh she boiled down with all the stuff she'd use for her soaks and made them into soaks and candles. But she'd send these teacakes to her son to eat, and then she ate them. And she also sold them to people. And even when the police came looking for these missing women, she gave them the teacakes.

So finally a witness said, I'm the third victor. I saw her go in to leonarda if Leonard did Chian Julie if by this say her names that if her go into Leonardo's house, did not come out, and now she's missing. So the police investigated. Leonard is pretty much really confessed because she thought she was doing the right thing by her son, So she was fully justified in doing these things and each time she killed, it was because she thought the supernatural forces needed yet another life

to preserve her sons. And it turned out she wasn't song because her son gives her vive, So who knows, but she believed that. And so when she went on trial, I mean, she freely talked about what it was like to kill and dismember and boil down the fat at these at these women who had been her friends. It was really cold. She's as cold blooded as really any serial killer you'll know, but she completely justified it for supernatural purposes.

killer was wearing a dress. But police there in a to get into the whole stereotype thing, don had to be a man, a man dressed as a woman wearing a way and so that's what they were looking for. And finally, of course they identified her as I think she was. Actually she killed someone and was seen by a person who was a boarder in the house, so he was able to call police quickly and they got her and then realized their error had been believing all this time they were looking for a man. In fact

she was a woman. But she was a female wrestler, so she's not a good one. She was pretty unsuccessful at it, you know, the court sort of TV sport, trying to think. So she had a you know, a whole persona you know, she had a wrestled name and the whole thing, and she was strong. She just had to resentment against these women and so she killed them and she would take things she had exacorating with them.

Another woman. At first they were they hired themselves out as made to this cleaning service, and the two of them together we were taking things. But then she turned into a killer on her own. So she's she's unusual.

help him more. And he was in fact a candy man because he made actual candy. His mother had a factory. He worked in the factory for a while, but also he offered these kids drugs and alcohol, so he was that kind of candy man as well. Maybe these kids weren't going there because that's what they wanted. They were forced there. They were picked up in Coral's van and taken there because he wanted them for his sex party.

And he told David Brooks that he would pay him, you know, per kid, like one hundred dollars per chid or something like that. But in fact he bought the car et cetera. Brooks brought h Elma, Wayne Hanley or some some people say Wayne Elmer Henley. Either way, Wayne

Henley and the potential victims. But cosponded in him this could be another accomplished because he needed them not only to bring the kids in but after he thoroughly tortured them on his torture board, a torture board by the way, that that was the inspiration for John Wayne Jacy when he hooks. Yeah, jay Z had read about the caves and he thought, wow, that sounds great, that sounds very effective. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't learn from each other, some of those killers anyway.

So after the kids were thoroughly tortured and then finally murdered, Coral expected Henley and Books to take the bodies and bury them. So they had basically that we know of three basic sights. One was a piece of land that Coral owned, one was a beach, and one was a boatyard. And so they would just take and dump the bodies in these places. And then Candley got very involved in the murders too. He I guess he enjoyed it as well. But that one day and these all were boys, and

that's all Coral wanted. He said that he don't want them to bring any girls it. One day, Kendy brought Burl over because she wanted to run away from home. He liked her. H He wasn't gay, but Corla was. But he liked this girl. He brought her over and Coral was curious, so he put you know, he got both of them, you know, wiped out in drugs and whatnot. They both passed out. He tied them up, and when when they woke up, they realized that Coral was going

to kill them both. And there was another kid there as well, so that that was going to be three. Henley was able to persuade Coral, but did you let me go? I'll help you kill kill them both. Do you let me go? So Coral is bad, but he put his gun down in order to do that, and Hanley realized he had the opportunity of a lifetime here because he didn't want Coral to kill his girlfriend. She

wasn't actually his girlfriend, but she's really liked. So he takes up the gun and he show Hanley, I mean he shot Karl, so Henley shot Carl, killed him, and then there the three of them are there thinking now what, well, the two victims think we have to call the police. They're they're not aware that Hanley had called it stuck to hide. Yeah, but you know, he either had to kill them or turn himself in. So I'm not for sure he would have turned himself in without that kind

of situation, but he could. He turns stuff in. He turned in Books, who wasn't very happy with him, and the two of them showed the police where the bodies were buried. There's one interesting photo I think it's the only one of the two of them together, where they're on the beach watching the diggers, and the two of them sitting together watching this. I think Hanley was much more emotional over Books. Never gave an interview ever about this,

but Hanley did a numerous ones. He's still alive, I'm pretty sure, but Books is dead, so obviously Corlways did. But that's that's an interesting case of three together. That's the only time we've had that. But it's three together. And then in these murders tortures, I mean like horrible tortures of these young boys. And it's also a case of socio economic times in this area of Houston, because all these boys went missing about this area and the

cop basically said, there's just run away. There was almost no investigation of I think it was. I think they've now up to twenty nine. Certainly twenty eight. Twenty seven were found at the time, but another's been identified since then. I think there might be another one for sure. How can you have that many people missing from the relatively yes, a couple of years period of time, and I think

something's going on. Well, it was the early seventies. We really we weren't even yet using the word serial killer for law enforcement. I mean, serial killer has been used in various textbooks and stuff, but not common use for law enforcement. It was, you know, there were a few One Corona in California they dug up, in fact, that case,

I believe one Corona had twenty five. And when they dug up the twenty seventh body and the Houston murders, they said, that's enough, We've topped the Corona case in California. It was a horrifying statement to make. In other words, you're saying if there's any other victims, well tough, we've done it up here. But we had the one Corona case is a mass grades in California, we had the Manson murders, and there are a few others, but not many, not many. So I guess it can be excused for

not really understanding the phenomena of serial murder. But I still think, wow. You know, in term of Kupodi had a chance to write about this case, he passed it up because he thought Handley looked like a two bit loser and he wouldn't be very interesting. But at that time, so it was so far gone and you know, his alcoholism and everything, he probably couldn't have written the book. But wow, what this could have been. I think, another

real expojee of a certain American era. But it wasn't you know, it still could be something could do a great documentary of it. It's a great case.

just bring boys to him but participate and torture. That's I mean, when you see his his kit of torture instruments, Oh my god, he's gayety by far.

care about their family. What's the kind of good police work we've seen, So I think that that's probably the main thing is when you look at how killers have been caught, it's often persistent, far thinking, innovative detectives who care about what they're doing, and and I like, you

know those stories, I'm not sure. I think also the variety of things that killers have done we have to keep in mind because I'm constantly hearing or seeing documentaries or scripted TV shows where it's the same thing over and over and over, and we fall into these ideas of what serious killers do and think we'll always know, and then someone like Isel Keys comes along or Sport, I think that's that's a bookchase, what clever thing he did. Also,

that was the case of very poor police work. So I think the lesson to be learned is that they can be be caught. We need to understand them. We need to understand the variations, the deviations, and the fact that predators always look to their advantage Insteady asked to figure out how to get around police procedures. Accountability elifs that we have. You know, the more these the more our media plays into the stereotypes, the more advantages you get killers. So I guess that would be a good thing.