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Radio you are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them.
Gasey, Bundy, Stahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK.
Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history.
True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening, s Town meets I'll Be Gone in the Dark in this stranger than fiction cold case from rural Oklahoma that has stumped authorities for two decades concerning the disappearance of two teenage girls and the much larger mystery of murder, possible police cover up, and an unimaginable truth. On December thirtieth, nineteen ninety nine, in rural Oklahoma, sixteen year old Ashley Freeman and her best friend Lauria Bible
were having a sleepover. The next morning, the Freeman family trailer was in flames and both girls were missing. While rumors of drug debts, revenge, and police corruption abounded. In the years that followed, the case remained unsolved and the girls were never found. In twenty fifteen, crime writer Jax Miller, who had been haunted by the case, decided to travel to Oklahoma to find out what really happened on that winter night in nineteen ninety nine and why the story
was still simmering more than fifteen years later. What she found was more than she could have ever bargained for. Evidence of jaw dropping levels of police negligence, entire communities ravaged by methanphetamine addiction, and a series of interconnected murders with an ominously familiar pattern. These forgotten towns were wild, lawless,
and home to some very dark secrets. The book that we're featuring this evening is Hell in the Heartland, Murder, meth and the Case of Two Missing Girls, with my special guest journalist, author, TV producer. Thank you so much for joining us on the program today discuss your remarkable new book. Welcome to the program, jash No.
Thank you, thanks so much. I really appreciate this.
Thank you so much for joining us right away. Let's talk about what brought you to the case of Ashley Freeman and Laura Bible. How did you come to being.
I never have a good answer for that. I I can't remember where I first heard the story, but in twenty fifteen I made the choice to move from fiction to nonfiction. And I remember this case. I did a Google sir, something like you know, best Friends, Trailer Fire, Prairie, and you know, I wanted to see if anything had happened with this story. And lo and behold. You know, at that time they were actually looking for the remains of the girls in the well of the convicted murderer.
And I says, wow, this is still so active fifteen years later. You know, this is what I want to do. So I called Laura Bible's mother, Larene Bible, and I says, hey, I'm thinking about writing a book. And here we are, you know, all this time later in the book's coming out tomorrow.
It's kind of surreal, absolutely, and there's so much going on as well, because as you there's a Kansas man, please guilty. Just July fifteenth. This was in the newspapers twenty twenty in Veneta, Oklahoma. And we'll get to that. We'll get to that incredible development in this story, and incredibly in this case. Let's talk about the particulars. Let's talk about all of the incredible and horrible particulars of
these heinous murders and their discovery. So take us back to December twenty eighth, nineteen, So tell us take us back.
So it was actually the morning of December thirtieth, and there was a trailer and this is real tucked and this is real rural, and there's a trailer home they found on fire. Inside they found the body of thirty eight year old Kathy Freeman, her burnt body. She was
shot to death prior to the fire being started. So it was first assume that her husband, Danny Freeman, had killed her and then had taken their sixteen year old daughter, Ashley Freeman, and as she's best friend Laura Bible, who was sleeping over the ninth before it was assumed that he had killed his wife, taken the girls and left. Soon after, a tip came in to police saying, you know, Danny has the girls. He's not going to give them back until cops hand over the officer who shot his
son less than one year prior. So that was the prominent theory of those first twenty four hours. The next day, at daybreak, the family of the friend Laura Bible, who was sleeping over, they go to look for clues. They go back to the crime scene. There's no one there. The cops are gone. This scene was released the evening before, and within moments of arriving, they find a second body that police failed to find, and that was their prime suspect,
Danny Freeman. So now you have these two dead parents and these girls are missing ever since, they've never been found, and that's the basis of this of Hell and the Harland for the most part.
Now, when you arrive from Ireland and you you come to this little place in Oklahoma and you meet Loreene Bible, what is the first thing that you deduce from this and and her spirit and her character, what are the first things that you recognize?
Well, yeah, I think I think coming into it, I was kind of expecting that grieving mother who you know, wails and you know, plunches her fists at the heavens type of woman. And she's anything, but she's a very reserved woman. Something that that that took a lot of getting used to coming from Ireland to Oklahoma was that Midwestern stoicism that you see so often around here. Just very still, very reserved and composed. So that took a lot in getting used to. But there's a power in that,
there really is, because she's very forward thinking. She she doesn't get caught up in the emotion. She doesn't get caught up in the theories in that hypotheses. Her immediate response is always what do I have to do next? What do I have to do next? And she's just always moving forward. And I was very impressed by that. I think she's a fascinating woman. I think she's a powerful woman. I think she's the strongest woman I've ever met. And you know, I think we could all learn something
from people like Loreene. I think she's just amazing.
Now, you talked about the tip that police got that they immediately assumed that Danny Freeman was the culprit in this murder in Arson, But you say that Loreen immediately and her husband were the people that took upon themselves to make the search for their daughter and inextrictly became involved in this case to the point where they discover
that Danny Freeman's in the fire as well. Now, tell us about because this book is obviously and Loraine is highly critical of the police reaction initially and beyond initially, So tell us how this could have possibly happened, this oversight and some of the things that you describe in the book about this investigation.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the big question. How does two parents, you know, and these are nice people, wholesome people, how do they find this body? And it's not a pretty scene. He's burnt to death, his head's been shot off. If you ask Loreene Bible, she'll tell you it looks like hamburger meat. This was a gory, horrible thing to stumble upon. And your daughter is missing. I mean, under these circumstances, how can you even fathom that people like you and I were not meant to
fathom stuff like this. No one is. And the big question is how the hell did police miss this? And that was the question that kept ringing. So from then on, Loreen and Jay as soon as they found Danny Freeman, they says, no, we're not giving the scene back to them.
They released it to the family. It's ours now. And it was Loreene and Jay and Danny Freeman's step brother Dwayne Vansell also who they've released seem to they were the ones who really led this, and they had volunteers, you know, And that's a great thing about living in a small community, you know, they had like in the first few days, they head up to five hundred volunteers, people looking on horseback and the bibles were conducting the
grid searches. You know, there's even a part. A lot of people don't know this, but they were putting down their own evidence markers while agents from the state sat on the sides, and then they would put the evidence markers down and then they would call back to the agents to come collect it. And it was just one mishap after another after another after another, and it's like, at what point, you know, does somebody do something? And
Loreen and Jay just did everything themselves. God bless them, and Dwayne Bansel too with that investigation those first few days. They did everything they could and they had a lot working against them, like the agent did not enter the girls into the nci SEE like.
He should have.
There was no arson investigation. And it's one of them stories over the years, reports go missing, this never happened, this person dead, you know, it's it's a very frustrating case in that sense.
We talked about the tip to police. Police must have investigated that because it was it was a dangerous misinformation. Bit of it misinformation. So what about that tip to police? What do they find about that tip?
Well, you know, I'll just preface by saying that the sheriff's office did not investigate. As soon as they got there, they put their hands up and says, we have too much bad blood with this family. We need to surrender this to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation. So for the first few hours, as this house is burning and they're putting out the fire, the Sheriff's office is sitting there. Even after the fire's out, they don't go inside. They
don't do investigate, They don't search for the girls. They just wait. And even Loreen Bible and Duane and everyone else is like, what the you know, what are you doing? Do something? And they didn't. Now this all said, the reason that they put their hands up and surrender this over was because less than a year prior, in early nineteen ninety nine, January eighth, nineteen ninety nine, Kathy and Danny Freeman's seventeen year old son, Shane Freeman, was killed
by a local sheriff's deputy. The family thought that they might have a case of a wrongful death suit. They were going to file a wrongful death suit against the county. They had one year to do so, or well, what they believed that they had one year to do so, and one week shy of that one year window closing, they were murdered. So a lot of this, you know, Shane Freeman is bought in a lot. I talk a
lot about Shane Freeman in the book. And yeah, so so that was a tip was that Danny was going to kidnap the girls and he wasn't giving them back until police handed over Deputy David Hayes, who's the cop who shot his son, and he I think he was expecting a shootout. I think that's how the tip said. It was that there was going to be a shootout, like come and get me, come and get the girls
and give me him. And of course we now know, you know, upon the Bible's finding Danny Freeman, that that tip was false.
You also have not to backtrack so much. But this is just so dramatic and disturbing is that when the initial Troy Reussick comes to see Messick, it finds out about the fire and wants to notify Loreen. How does he go about that? Just to start off this whole nightmare for her.
So that morning she was working at McDonald's. Loreene was and at first she had a call from her son, Bred, that older brother, and he said something like, Mom, you know there's a fire out in Welch because his girlfriend lived in Welsh at the time, you know, and at first nobody really thought that much of it. I think everyone kind of imagined a small kitchen fire. Nobody knew
it was as severe as it was. So she hung up the phone with Brad and moments later, you know, Deputy Messic comes in and he says, Loreene, we got to talk. And she'll tell you, like I knew from his face it was it was serious, you know, that the place had burnt down. From there, she actually relayed information to Messick who there, who then related it to the authorities back on the scene where the you know,
what the layout of the trailer was. So it's like, according to Loreene, Danny's room is here, Ashley's room is here, Shane's room was here, you know. And she's actually from McDonald's, uh, you know, giving them the layout of the land, the layer of the land out there. So and then she and and and then she called Jay. She she called her husband Jay, uh, and then Jay picked her up and then together they went to the crime scene.
Now when we talk about the search, this extensive search with the five hundred volunteers. How did they endeavor to conduct this search? What did they have any start for that search? Did they have any leads to direct them in this search?
So the five hundred people wasn't until about day three, I believe at first. You know, it's a very small town. Word travels very quickly, so people came, you know, wanting to know what's up, and a lot of them came like just like with that nosy sense, like you know, hey, what's going on. People listen to their police scanners out there. That's a very common thing. You'll see even the funeral plartilests that a pretent and started handing out drinks and
sandwiches to people. And people were letting their kids run around the crime scene like babies, babies, you know, in diapers. It was a really it was a circus. And all the while, on that second day, you have twenty five agents just standing on the sidelines and Lorene like, don't you come near this, You stay put, and they did. And I understand where Loreene came from. I feel I totally feel for her why she would do that because
they failed to find Danny the day before. But I also don't understand why agents let her, Why they didn't, you know, try and investigate this properly. And it wasn't just finding Danny's body. There was you know, the elite agent. He hadn't you know, entered the girls into the NCIIC. Loreen did that herself. They weren't planning searches that second
or third day. J Bible, the father of Laura Bible, he called the radio station and and and and appealed for volunteers, and that's how most of them came the next day. And what they did was they they formed an assembly line down the driveway and they all came with these handmade sifters and they went through one clump of ash at the time looking for bones. That's that's pretty much what they did, like the whole time, until every inch was covered and there was no sign of
the girls. No nobody believed the girls were in that fire. Wow.
Now you talked about this bad blood and that's because over the this shooting and the Sheriff's department being involved. But is there more to is there more to them not investigating like you describe them sitting around, Loreene comes to this scene. They have to have the medical examiner come so they they're sitting down. So is there a sense of callousness or indifference because of that bad blood and because of the character behind some of these people
in the police mind? Is there that kind of feel to this thing?
I mean, I think this whole story begs the question was this incompetence or was this corruption? You know, I do talk about it because there was a history with with the Sheriff's office corruption. It wasn't new, unfortunately, And I'm not saying that they were all bad by any means. Personally, I think there was one bad one. I have his colleagues on record saying he sold meth out of the trunk of his car. And he was one who was
primarily doing the harassment against Danny Freeman. And we have this, you know, we have this documented where the police went back and forth and it was like shining spotlights in the Freeman home in the middle of the night, following Ashley off the school bus, like they were very you know, just harassing, and it was mostly this one character he's dead now, And Danny was the same way. I mean,
he was stalking the cop who shot his son. Whether or not that was a justifiable shooting, that's that's still another question, another story, if you will. But I mean, it was a tit for tat for that whole year, you know. And you have to remember small towns, you know, most of these people know one another anyway outside the badge. They've known each other for years. And whether or not it was a callousness, whether or not they knew Danny was there and just decided to ignore him and hope
nobody else notice, you know, all these things. If it was a callousness or not, I don't know. I think it's up for readers to decide, you know, what you think. Because even in talking to the families, you know, the Bibles don't dwell so much on the corruption side of law enforcement because they believe that that will take it
the focus away from the girls. Whereas the freemens are very vocal that they're going to go to their graves believing that the cops did this, and that the cops you know, had the men we now know are the suspects that they had them do it. So there is that great divide.
Let's get back to this partnership, this friendship, this relationship, that you develop with Loreen. You're incredibly candid about how much how obsessed you were with this case and your original your first book there was a major success was Freedom's Child and the issues explored in there, your relationship with Loreen, they have something to do with each other, at least your book and your experiences, your personal experiences
informed you and were present in this relationship. I believe from my reading, tell us a little bit about the relationship and what major things you learned in this relationship.
You know, Loreene just threatened to throw a peach at my forehead yesterday, like we have. We have this loving relationship. I think. You know, it's not all serious. We don't sit there and dwell over the case. It's really not like that. It's and there are times for that, but no, it's grown, you know, separate from her case and her story and me going through this book. There was a
lot that I went through emotionally. There were things, you know, outside this case, like my mother's passing and you know, stuff moving, stuff like this. I had my own you know, trials, and she was there for them. You know, there's something very motherly and very nurturing underneath that cold heart. Exterior, and she is I really think the world of her. I don't know she feels the same way for me,
but I do think the world of her. I look up to her because I never met anyone like her and checking myself and checking my own heart and seeing the woman that I want to be. It's a lot more like Loreene. And I just I was struck by her. I was very struck by her. I don't know if you've ever seen interviews with her, She's a different breed if.
You will, yes, Now, this is a for you undertake this And you had no idea as you write that this would be a four year investigation. You had did not plan, did not have these kinds of plans for this kind of extensive stay. What did you find in this investigation? And you write about your own experiences, serious experiences with drugs, but this community plagued by methanthetamine? Were you surprised? And how important was the methanphetamine to this story and this investigation?
So so myth was a huge aspect to this story because it's such a huge it has such a huge impact on this community. There are parts of this area that have been devastated by poverty. If you look at Picture Oklahoma, which is where the girls were thoughts have been murdered, it's where the suspects lived at the time, and that's you know, it's not far from from Welch, Oklahoma. But Picture Oklahoma was a huge lead mining town that's collapsed.
It's full of sinkholes and empty homes, and it were you know, a lot of I mean, there's no one there now, but back then it was making you know, it really lended towards the mess problem that you see in the area today. And for me, I'm a big believer that nothing bad should ever be gone in vain. I believe that the bad parts of the bad things that have happened, the bad choices we make, we can use them later on, you know, with that silver lining. And I'm very open about my past as a drug addict.
I never did meth, but you know, I'm very open about my own struggles with addiction, and I think that that was a huge asset for me in this case. Actually, because I think a lot of people in the genre, whether or not they're a writer or journalist or even law enforcement, you know, just anyone who has to deal with victims and suspects. I think a lot of times
they can be a little pretentious. They come in there with with, you know, their stiff suit and a notebook, and they're asking questions like like they're a little bit better than them, a little bit pretentious. And I'm not saying everyone, I've just I mean, I've just seen this before, and I really did not want to be that person. I really wanted to meet them wherever they were. And I remember in my own struggles with addiction, the person who really helped me was someone who met me where
I was, you know what I'm saying. So that was important to me. So when I'm dealing with methadicts and I don't like the labels. First of all, I don't like the labels because I don't think that defines who you are as a person. It doesn't deply me, it doesn't apply them they. I mean, these people, you know, are someone's parent and child and sibling, and people forget.
That, you know.
I think it's easy for people to say, oh, they're just they're just junkies, you know, let them be. So I would meet them where they're at, and sometimes i'd sit with them while they got high. Sometimes I sat with them while they cried. Sometimes I sat with them, you know, and lit their cigarette. And other times we would just joke around and have a great meal. I mean, you meet them wherever they're at, because I think this
business should require a foundation of trust. For me, that was ninety percent of the job was building that foundation of trust. And even now, like I send them Christmas cards, we talk. I mean, I'm just very friendly with some I just play it cool, I guess, And I don't know if that's dumb or not, but you know, I it's how I roll.
I suppose right now, in this investigation, we have alluded to that this case has changed and there's this trial that's going to go on, and that needs to be explained as well. Because there's a trial. It's a plea agreement. So it's a fascinating development that has happened. But it didn't happen overnight. So tell us about the investigation, your investigation as well in Therenes and how you came to the discovery of it.
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The terms conditions eighteen pluss potential suspects in the first place and the eventual suspect that is now charged. But tell us about this investigation and the hunt for suspects in the first place.
So when I first came to this story, their prime suspect was someone who had confessed maybe ten years prior. It was a man who's now on death row, an alleged serial killer named Jeremy Jones. And he was a suspect for a long time. And there was no one else. It was no other big leads. So the three men now that we now believe, you know, had killed the girls, right.
We would hear their names once in a while, but they were, you know, they didn't raise huge red flags and a lot of these red flags came after the arrest. Then it was a lot of aha moments. So I'd heard these names, The family had heard these names, but they've also heard hundreds of other names, So you know, it's like, what do you do with it? You know, this is why you need investigators. So it was kind
of like the perfect storm. As around the same time that I came to this story, there was the family created the Fine More Bible page on Facebook and that really opened the door for families to get a lot of new tips. Also, around the same time, there was a new team of investigators, and this was like the first time on an official level that this case was really being looked at, like really being investigated. And that's with the OSBI agent Tammy Ferrari and the DA's investigator
Gary Stancil. So you kind of have this perfect storm and then it's like the floodgates opened really wide, and you know, people started talking about Ronnie Bussa, they started talking about David Pennington, and they started talking about Phil Welch. Welch and Pennington have died. It's believed that Phil Welch was kind of the ringleader in this to his family.
Talking to people who knew him. He was quite a terrifying man, to say the least, and it sounds like he had the other two kind of under his spell. So we knew that the arrest was going to happen for some time. But then the Affidavid's released that same day, the twenty eighteen Affidavid, and everyone learns for the first time about these pictures that were produced that had showed that had showed the girls being held against their will. I don't know the full details of what's in the picture.
I don't know if they've kept that from the families for their own sake or if they just don't know. I'm not sure. But the girls were held captive. And then all these witnesses came forward and here we are today. So I mean, going into this story, none of this was anticipated, and being a part of it, watching this happen, and you know, it's been so surreal, and in a way, I feel so honored that they have let me in so greatly. Now, of course, you know, there there is
an arm's length. I don't know everything, and I know for to take it in case there are things that they don't tell me. And I don't. I don't budge. I totally respect that. So it's just been really surreal. But I am so thankful. I am so thankful that this case is progressing the way it has, and I really hope it progresses, especially in the next few weeks. You know, Ronnie Busick has only a few weeks to produce the bodies of Ashley and Laura in return for
a lighter sentence. He pled guilty last week, and it's just been a wild, crazy roller coaster.
Well, tell us more about this incredible deal, because he gets a certain sentence if he doesn't cooperate and lead authorities to these bodies. So, but what is the okay? So tell us the entire deal, what he doesn't get, and what he does get out of this agreement, what does he have to do to fulfill it.
So, so Ronnie Busick has pled guilty to accessory to murder. He is beginning to talk. I know, last week before judge he says, I haven't been completely honest. You know, this is one of them things where they kind of keep me at arm's length, and I think that you know, they of course hold back details because if there are more people they want to come forward and families and
law enforcement. You believe there are more people out there with information then there's that whole back information, so they don't share everything with me. But he apparently he is beginning to talk, and the details of the agreement are if he does produce the bodies, he will serve five years plus probation. If he does not, then he will serve fifteen years. And if you've ever seen Ronnie Musick, you know he's not in the best health. You know,
fifteen years is probably a life sentence for him. I know a lot of people are angry about this. A lot of people are very only five years, only fifteen years, what's wrong with you? But you have to kind of imagine and what the families are going through when their number one priority is to find the girls and this might be their only hope. So it's kind of you know, it wasn't an easy thing, and like you said, it wasn't something that happened overnight. You know, I think they
prayed real hard. I think they thought real hard, and they discussed it for a long time, and this was what they believed was best for them.
You talk about people being outraged, and I understand that, but then I understand, you know, the legal procedures that that he had some leverage over these investigators, and that's why they couldn't. They have to drop certain charges, and that's why it's a plea agreement. They have to offer something. So they didn't have sufficient evidence obviously to prosecute him charge him for murder. So this is the best compromise that these people can exert on this music. So it's
the best they they can possibly do. But tell our audience what the investigators believe that Busic, along with Philip Welsh the second and David Pennington did to these young girls.
So from what I understand, and and I kind of learned as I go, I learned to detail. And I'm only saying this because Loreen and Dwayne mentioned it on an interview yesterday, and this was new to me that they went there, they killed the family, the girls had escaped, and the girls ran out the back door, and this was new to me. And when I heard it on
the interview, I started crying just hearing it. I was like I had to hide from Loraene and just get missed the eye that they went in the back they were in the pasture, they poked their heads up and one of them saw them. And had they not tried escaping, you know, I don't know, or had they not pulled up their head, they might have made it. But that was a new detail. From there, it's believed that they took the girls back to Phil Welch's trailer and picture,
which was then still deteriorating. Now it's a ghost TOWND, but I don't think it was quite a ghost town yet, right, Queen. You know from witnesses, and what was said in the Affidavid was that, you know, everyone, they they drugged the girls, They raped the girls, they sodomized the girl, They you know, tortured them for one to two weeks. There have been ample rumors about a party. There was a revolving door, and you have to understand, in this mess world, it wasn't.
I don't believe it was just those three men. I do not believe that. That's why I believe, you know, that there's more people out there, and I hope that that book reaches those people. But as far as the deaths, it's alleged, based on what witnesses have said in the Affidavid, that Phil Welsh strangled the girls and then proceeded to dispose of their bodies in one of the many minds of the Picture. I know, for a long time, everyone's focuses have been on Picture, you know, which is a
ghost town. It was once a thriving lead mining town, but now it's full of sinkholes and mines. And there's the scary, there is the horrifying, you know, possibility that you might never find these girls because these mines have long collapsed or they flushed. I mean when I say minds, I mean underground cities. They used to have eighteen wheeler you know, highways for eighteen wheelers, interstate highways underground. These are not little mind shifts, you see. And yeah, it
was its own underground city. And if you look at pictures of Picture underground, it's like Cathedral underground, Like it's thousands of a square miles of this. I never knew such a place even existed in America, but I spare you it's there. But that's where it's largely believed that Phil Welch and possibly others disposed of the girls. I know, the most recent searchers have focused on that area. Now, of course, there's the possibility they're not there, but that
is where they focus. It also bears mentioning that they believe Phil Welch was kind of the ringleader and all this, and I think Pennington and Busic were kind of the the tag alongs, if you will, and who possibly set the fire.
And you talk about Ronnie Busick too. He's sixty eight years old out of this. So that's the reality of this too, that if he were to get the fifteen years, he might not outlive that. So that's very interesting.
And he's a very old sixty eight. He's a very old sixty eight. He's been shot in the head, so he's not all there. And he's spent a lifetime addicted to meths so he's a very old sixty eight.
And he was arrested while he was in prison, so he's this he's not. He's spent considerable time in prison already and was arrested for these for these crimes while he was.
In prison too, right, right, They had arrested him on drug charges up in Kansas. But he has spent most of his life in and out of jail. I mean, he knows the system, and I think that that's why everybody hears he might be, you know, just kind of jerking the authorities around because he does know the system's he's he's a little bit clever in that in that sense.
This very interesting and important date is August first, So he has a deadline. Isn't that you're going to assist us in trying to find these bodies. He has a deadline to find these bodies or they have a deadline, which is August thirty first. Very interesting right right.
Now?
Sorry? How?
How? How? What's Loreene and Jay's thoughts about this development? And then you mentioned about the five years and the fifteen years. What are her thoughts about this entire development and this August thirty first event?
You know, this wasn't something that was taken lightly. I know that the family is along side, like with the DA, you know, Ballard with with the attorney for with the ADA. I know everyone sat down and discussed this for a long time, for weeks, maybe even months. So this wasn't anything new. And when I've asked Loreen in the past, asks like how do you feel about this? Is this give you some semblance of closure? When I ask for things like this, her answer is always the same. Nothing
is solved, nothing is finished. Until I find Laura, you know, until I find my daughter. So despite the arrest, I think she's happy to see him do some jail time, but it's very pale compared to her wishes to find Laura. That's her only prerogatives in this life.
What was it like for her to finally get a contact from police and have this arrest of this suspect, And what was it like for her if she shared it with you, just her reaction to finding out the reality of what happened to her daughter, the horrible reality of what happened to her daughter and a friend.
I don't think she's any stranger to this, you know, And I remember when I first met her tiptoeing around these details. But she's very forward, she's very forthcoming, and she she's no stranger to the horrors, I mean absolute horrors of this case. She really wears the pants in this investigation in a sense because she you know nothing, I mean, she she knows everything. She she really does.
And she's been hearing rumors about this party since the first week or you know, maybe a little earlier, but like since since the very early days. Yeah, and you know she's heard about this party or she's heard this name or she's heard that name. I mean, she's heard horror stories that you know, you wouldn't be able to sleep. So I don't think any of them are shocking to her. And if they are, she she won't show me. She
won't show anyone. But you know, I think for her, in her mind and her way of thinking, which is is quite unique, she's like, Okay, great, what's next, what's next? What's next? We got Ronnie, what's next. He's got a plea deal, What's next? And that's how her mind works. It is not how my mind works. My mind works. I you know, of course, I'm a storyteller, so I'm thinking of theories and hypothesis and I you know, my my imagination would run away with me, not her. What next?
What next? What next? And that's that's how you know. I've asked her. I'm like, yeah, I've asked her family members. I'm like, has she always been like this? Or is this just because of this case? And she's like, no, she's always been like that. That's that's who she was born this way.
You know, you talk about Loreene not having not really the police cooperating with her or you know, she wasn't. I guess it's satisfied with the response of the police and there in their investigation. What about this new team of investigators, was there a difference and that did that make her have more confidence that something would happen in this case?
I think right off the bat, there is a skepticism, and I think that would be anyone. I think when you dealt with law enforcement, or having tale with law enforcement as much as Loreene has, of course you're skeptical like, okay, well we'll see. And I think it was very clear again Loreen kind of wears the pants here. So when this new team came forward and it's headed by DA
investigator Gary Stanfill. Now Stancill had retired from Tulsa. He was a sex crimes I don't know what his actual title was, but he worked in sex crimes and he retired from there, and he took on this case almost as his own personal project. This isn't like some assignment he has. He's retired, so you know, this is like a personal thing for him. And I think he really
took on the lead with this story. And even though there is that natural skepticism, you know, kind of like, well, we'll see, and a lot of it's like Loreene is like, here's the information I have, what are you going to do with it? And a lot of it's also Loreene saying I'm going here, And that's what happened with Ronnie Busick. You know, She's like, I got a tip or a few tips. You know, I'm going here. You're coming with me or you're not. And they went with her. You know,
That's that's how it went. But this all said, they are very good they I know, the Bibles and Freemans on both sides are very happy with the direction Stancil and Ferrari have taken this investigation. They're making so much progress. And you know, if I've said it once, I've said it a million times. There's been more progress just in the past four years or even two years. I think you know that there has been in all those twenty years. And I know those investigators are doing a very good job.
What about this book thout tomorrow? What how satisfied or do you think Loreen is about this book?
She's you know, she has again she has a very unique approach. She you know, she sees this as another avenue to get the story out there. You know, this story hasn't been very national, It's been largely regional and local, and and her her her sentiment is, Okay, you know, here's just another avenue. Here's just another avenue. Here's just another avenue. So that's what I hope it does. I really hope that this is a productive avenue for her. I hope it does reach that right person. You know.
I gave her a copy of the Book of the Day. I says, here, you can use it as a doorstop. I was joking, and you know, but no, I really do hope that this does help bring the publicity because I think the publicity helps. I know, I know, with you know, press stuff in the past, every time there's a boost in the publicity, the tips do come forward and people do pay attention. So I really do hope this book helps her and her you know, crusade. And again, I think there are people who are still out there
who know something. I think people are afraid. I know a lot of people say they're afraid. Some will say they're afraid of cops. I've heard people say they're afraid of Phil Welch, who's been dead for years now. And then there are people who are just very wrapped up in that lifestyle and they're afraid of getting in trouble. You know, you're dealing with a lot of people addicted to methodphetamine and they're scared of getting in trouble or or you know, well, you know I've waited this long.
It'll look bad if I say something now because I didn't say it twenty years ago, you know. So I really hope this book reaches that right person. I hope it reaches them on a day where it'll strike a chord and make them come forward and help.
Yes, you say too. Meeting Lorraine going through this as well, you talk about the Oklahoma Away in terms of no crying and just this steely resolve. How did it help you? How did this whole thing help you?
This was a very transformative thing to happen to me in many ways, and that was not something I was anticipating. I'm a New Yorker. I'm very expressive. I yell, I use my hands when I thought, I let you know how I feel. I wear my heart on my sleeve and going to Alclaholma. They are not that. And that's not all of Oklahoma. That's just largely in this region maybe, and you know, they're just very reserved, They're very still
and composed. And I was so struck by that. I was so impressed by that, and I said, that's what I want to be more like now. I talked about the book about my mental health. I talked about my anxiety and my panic attacks and stuff like this and going through that, you know. I mean, I remember one time I was panicking, I had a threat and I called Lorene, just panicking and I'm like, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, I can't breathe. And she talked me down.
She's like, take a deep breath. Here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna put yourself in a bedroom. You're gonna stay away from the windows. You're gonna call the sheriff, you know. And she talked me down, and I'm like, this is what I want to be. This is who I want to be, you know, instead of that reactive, you know, loud and as I'm sure you can tell, I do talk a lot. I go, yeah, yeah, pity, yeapity, yeah. But you know, I really did want to be more
like that. And she taught me so much, and not just her about everyone you know here in Oklahoma has taught me so much about who I want to be as a woman and who I want to be on an emotional level, and I'm so grateful for that. You know, here, I was thinking I go into their lives, but they came into mind as much, and it's been a real, very fortunate thing.
You take the reader into this investigation as well with you and Loreene, and it was not without dangers as well. You describe some of the conditions that you had to do for these interviews and some of the people you met and some of the I guess the fear that you felt.
Yes, yeah, I think. You know, it's important to preface by saying that this case was through a lens of crippling anxiety and panic. Not so much because of this case, I think kind of just rear its head during its you know, during this case. Okay, my mother, her mother, my great grandmo, they all had it. So I think there was already a bit of fear that may not have been one hundred I'm trying to think of a word with the word not appropriate, but it may not
have been. Sorry, I'm having a brain fart right now. Can I start that question over our own life.
I see what you mean. I do see what you mean, though, yeah, and you know.
And of course they were threats and you know, and there was a lot of you know, feeling in danger. A few times I faced a loaded gun and there were people like, you know, get out of here. You know, you're you're messing with some dangerous stuff. I mean even cops, you know, they're like, I would talk to you, but but people will kill me. There is a lot of that, and I think a lot of the danger comes not necessarily from this case directly, but from people in the
meth and fetamine's world. I mean, people on meth can be very unpredictable. They can be dangerous times when I would have them stalk me. There was one in particular who stalked me. He continues to stalk me. I had to go to the sheriff with that information. So it is, it is scary, but it wasn't directly the case. It was just you know, this lifestyle that you see a lot in the area, do you know what I mean?
It wasn't directly related to Lauren Ashley, right, but it was scary, and you know, I'd be lying if I said, I'm not scared anymore. Yeah, I still have times where I'm like, I'm nervous. I'm pretty nervous.
Yeah, understandable. Before I let you go, tell us about the anticipation of August thirty first, And also, is there other information obviously that will be gained after that date or as a result of that court date? Will there be more answers and more information like the incredible graphic and the horrible details of the murder and the rape and the being held captive. Is there more information to come and will it come from this plea agreement or this court date on August thirty first.
You know, something I've also learned from families is don't get your hopes up, you know. And I've asked Learne, like are you are you excited about this? And you know, she's like she she doesn't get on those emotional rollercoasters. And that's something I learned because early on, like when they would do search, I'm like, this is it, and like you get your hopes up and then you're devastated when things don't work out the way you want them to.
So I've learned, especially because of this case, not to get my hopes up and just be still and you know, just meet, and that's what we're doing. So yes, I'm excited. It's very It would be very easy for me to be like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. But I'm trying to keep still and you know, I'm taking a page out of the Bible book, you know, and and and we'll see, we'll see where it goes.
Will it produce information? I think if they do find the girls, hopefully, I don't know in what condition, you know, in what context that they would be found, if medical examiners could figure out something, I really don't know, but I do know. Loreene has largely avoided pointing to police corruption, police negligence and all the things that the Freeman's are very vocal about because she wants to focus to remain
on finding the girls. And I think when the girls are found, I think she's going to have another fight.
Before her Wow. Yeah, I want to thank you so much for coming on and talking about Hell and the Heartland murder Math in the case of two missing girls. It is a fascinating book and it's been a pleasure to speak to you about it today. For people that might want to, I know, a little bit more information. Is there a website, a Facebook page, tell us a little bit more how they might find out about more information or contact you.
So if they want to reach out to me, I'm all over social media Instagram, Twitter, but mostly I'm on Facebook at real Jax Miller. Also, the Bible family has a page which they keep up to date very regularly, especially in light of this stuff with Ronnie Busick in jail, and that's find Laura Bible Laura spelled l A U r i A And that's a great page to follow.
Yes, thank you so much, it's been fascinating. Thank you, Thank you very much, Jax Miller.
I appreciate it.
Take care, good night,