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You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good Eating.
This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime History and the authors that have written about them. In the mid to nineteen eight mid to late nineteen eighties, a quiet neighborhood near Tacoma, Washington, was terrorized by the violence of three men, Paul Saint Pierre, an alcoholic psychopath, his younger brother Chris, who had committed unspeakable acts to be one of the boys,
and Paul's childhood friend Druggie Andrew Webb. The three beat up one man before cutting his throat on a deserted beach. They decapitated another victim, whom Paul Saint Pierre had killed, and buried his head in a bucket of concrete. Soon, the twisted triad turned on each other. Saint Pierre shot Andrew Webb and the stomach during an argument. Chris Saint Pierre called the cops. He and Webb, who survived his attack, were sentenced to life in prison. Paul Saint Pierre choked
to death alone in his jail cell. The book we're featuring this evening is Headshot by my friend and journalist and author and talk show radio host and TV radio personality Burl Bear. Welcome back to the program, and thank you for greeting to this interview about Headshot.
Burrow Bear. Well, hi there, Dan's great to be back on your program. Everything you stuff calling me a raconteur or wanted criminal.
Well whatever you like.
You know you wanted criminal.
Yet, well it's probably uh probably won't be befitting you, you know, being it is either story.
I must admit the book Headshots were the stranger combination of crimes and combination of individuals. And not only were the people uh strange and we'll get to them and the crimes horrific, but the court cases that uh that transpired after these murders were the phrase bob Ville news is the trial was a pig circus. I mean, there's completely as insane as the crimes prosecutorial conduct is unbelievable.
Yeah, that's it's great too. This this story, you have a n act for unearthing stories that have much more complexity than when you even look at it. And when you look at this it this looks like some three senseless, crazed individuals doing some bizarre, very very strange stuff. So
you do really capture that as well. But like a lot of books that you've done, you really it is an examination of the judicial system too, in this particular case, and it is a great example of what could happen, and this is a great example of what does happen.
So it is I've had people tell me that this book the courtroom shenanigans, scared them more than the murder.
Yeah, well, I think that's I can relate. You know, where you're you know, the equally fascinating and bizarre story continues when you get to the court case. There's no normality going on when when you get the trial or anything any easy answers or you know, there's surprises and and like you say, a fascinating examination basically by virtue of this crazy story.
So of course we don't know what the story is, so I guess maybe we should start to and tell them at least part of it. You're it's you're conducting this. So where do you want to get.
Well, let's start off with when this was. This is in the mid eighties, nineteen eighty four, but there's a you know before that. We're going to go back a little bit into the early eighties, you know, the really classic period of killers, I think, but let's go back to that time in a quiet neighborhood in or near Tacoma, Washington. So let's tell us where this is and tomba wash.
That and what you're dealing with is and I do in the book is pretty much also the story of two fascinating families, the Saint Pierre family and the web family. Saint Pierre's mister Missus Saint Pierre both wonderful people, school teachers, and they had these two boys, Christopher Saint Pierre, Paul Saint Pierre, and I believe we had a daughter as well. And the one son, Paul was how do we put this politely, an alcoholic sociopath and a desire to kill
all the time. He was in the United States Marines, and they booted him out. I guess they're afraid to kill somebody. And when he came back from the service, his brother Christopher had a good job at an auto repair place right next to the house he was living in, and he had a good life going for him. And his brother was very domineering. Shows up and says I'm moving in he would he like it or not, And being the dominant personality, he pretty much set the tone
for what was going to be going on. What was going on was not to anyone's liking. I can tell you that he had an experience where he was in a supermarket and he saw someone doing something wrong, was really wrong. Paul was armed. He took out a gun and shot the fellow and that was okay in those circumstances. It was considered an actor of bravery, and he loved it. He got to shoot somebody and didn't get in trouble for it. And so after that he wanted to shoot people all the time.
What exactly, It's not like you to hold back some information details. What exactly was this guy doing in the grocery store.
It was so bad, you know, back in the eighties of my memories, a little lapse whether he was trying to rob the place, or something like that and came to rescue and so it was considered justifiable and actually rather heroic. And so he liked that that she was able to whip out a gun and shoot somebody. And it was just that opportunity doesn't present itself very often, no, so he kept looking shoot people, you know the old He tried and he liked it. He wanted to do
it again. Life does not present opportunities for shooting people, so he created his own. However, before he got to shoot more people. We have Andrew Webb his best friend. Now, Chris, I mean, excuse me, Paul Saint Pierre is gone now. He died shortly after being arrested under the strangers the circumstances. Died from shoving pieces filled toilet paper down his own throat. I don't think so, but that's supposedly what happened while
under suicide watch after having a fight with the guards. Interesting, he had it out. Now, Andrew Webb, his family is truly fascinating. It comes from a family of nine kids. His mother, this poor woman with a very diar friend of mine's grandmother. That's how I found out about the case. She was poison her grandson put rat poison in his coffee and he become terribly ill. And then she'd take care of him. That's, you know, munchause in syndrome by proxy. And she used to also beat him up. She'd kick
him and beat him. And my friend was a a football player. They'd show up at school with black eyes and bruises and he said, wow, what happened to you? Man said, oh, I got into a fight. No, he didn't get into his fight. His tinmely little grandmother would beat the crap out of him, and he led her because he didn't want to hurt her. Well she was quite a disturbed woman who had been horribly abused as
a child, raped by her father repeatedly. The mother took off and left her and her younger sister alone with the alcoholic, abusive father. When the father started looking at the younger sister the same way, the future of missus Webb said, listen, if you keep your hands off of her, I won't complain anymore about what you do to me. Well E, when she was eighteen, she married, got married, got to take out of there. All she wanted to do was have a nice, normal family, a good Christian family.
She had nine kids, and each one of those kids, either with a few exceptions, either was a child molester, a murderer, or married a child molester hor murderer.
Wow like the legacy.
Yeah, well multi generational incest. Originally, I had said the book that he couldn't tell who was doing who in the family without a chart and a graph of tat out because you know, imply things about some of the other people, you know, the other kids that port remained to the story, you know, the primary story. But it was quite a quite a disturbed family despite all the best intentions. And Andrew was was brain damaged because he
had his head run over by the family car. That sounds because the kid was crawling behind the car and someone backed up over his head and moved so they drove the car forward. Uh. So he had his own set of problems. Andrew got in a lot of trouble, a lot of They had a lot of paranoil, a lot of acts of violence.
Uh.
You know, someone sold his marijuana plants. He took a gun and went and got him back. And he was in trouble. And the cops said, listen, if you can stay out of trouble for ninety days, you don't have to go to prison, so don't get in any trouble. Well got in trouble. He was at a party with Paul and Christopher and all these guys, and they decided that this innocent kid, Damon Wells, had been plotting to steal from them, which he hadn't, but Andrew was paranoid.
So they took Damon out to a part Discovery part, took away his shoes and we're going to make him walk home. And he said, I'm going to tell on you. I'm going to tell the cops what you did. Well, not wanting to get in trouble, Andrew whipped out a knife and slashed Damon's throat.
Yeah and three months ago.
Yeah, I know how to keep from getting in trouble. I'll kill him.
Yeah.
So this poor innison kid and his throat slit, and the three guys stand there and watch him die, and then they bury the body up and up in the mountains. Not long afterwards, another murder takes place when Paul Saint Pierre they go to a rock concert. They see this nice kid, Johnny Cord, and buye him over the house with some pizza. Well, Andrew and Chris go out to get I think some pizza and beer. John's there alone
with Paul. When they get back, the guys are John's on the floor with a bullet through his head, and Paul's going, well, I thought I felt threatened, so I shot him. They took him.
What was the what was the threat from the what was the why did they invite him to the house in the first place?
Just just for fun?
You know?
They were having a good time at the concert and there was this nice guy. Maybe they kne him from school or something and invited him over. Okay, and they wanted quite dead. Now, this is the fellow that they they took up and they buried, not not too far from the other fellow they buried. And then later Paul thinks to himself, for if they ever dig up this body and they get a bolt out of their head, they'll be able to match that boat by gun.
Right, So what do they do?
Well, instead of throwing away the gun, they go back up, dig up the body, chop the head off, put the head in the bucket of concrete, and throw the bucket the Pewau River. Eventually the bucket is found with their head. They put their head back on the body and discovered the poor fellow didn't die from getting shot. The bolt had gone through his cheek and simply broken his John knocked him out. They could have taken him to the hospital, but he came to before they buried him. So Paul
stabbed him seventeen or eighteen times. And then, I mean, the whole thing is insane, absolutely insane. Yeah, neither one of these homicides make any sense whatsoever. Now to continue with this insanity and ridiculousness, because this sounds like you couldn't find a motive in this. Really there wasn't almost No, it's just motive list.
And the other thing too, we didn't talk about too much. He's talk about Andrew in the pot. But Andrew's got a little bit more of a drug problem than marijuana, right.
Well, yeah, he drinks continually. He also takes large amounts of psychedelics. He's married, by the way, Yeah, actually were who married him, and a couple of kids, and the wife is fighting. Andrew curled up under the sink or in the laundry basket. Uh, he had some real, real problems. Yeah, and he also spoke unfaithful.
He was unfaithful.
That's why she finally kicked him out.
Okay, Now how does it Now? This is in a short period of time, like you say, and there they bury these couple of bodies and there's real no motive. They're not on a like a crime spree by intention or anything. Now, how does it get to the point and why are they why are these two guys fighting, and and how does Andrew get you know, how did they get shot? So to us about about the pounder
gets shot? And what and how long is it after these murders and what do they do after these murders and the police what what do the police idea on this?
Police have no idea these murders have even taken place, right, they've there have been a couple of missing person reports, but there's no The police don't know that anyone's been murdered because they've taken these bodies and they buried him. Everyone's kept their mouths shut. Paul's looking for more excuses to shoot more people. He confides to some of his buddies. You know. He goes and spends one night with a one friend of his and we start talking about how
much he likes shooting people. The other guy spends all night long and sleeping with one eye open. Paul's going to shoot him. What happened was between he and Andrew's typical. They got into a fight over money, you know, fifteen dollars, ten dollars, something like that. And Andrews says to Paul, what are you going to do? Paul? Shoot me? Well, that was kind of the wrong thing to say, because what the heck of an idea? Paul without a gun and proceeds to shoot Andrew, doesn't kill him, but puts
a bull through him. Where's he fot?
Where's he shooting him? Shoots him in the stomach, and how dangerous is it where he shot him? Well, then if he could have died except for the fact one of the fellows is there or one of the other buddies runs down the street into a local tavern intos, someone called the called the cops. Someone has been shot, and you get an ambulance there and you get the police. And that's when Christopher Saint Pierre decides it's time to expose everything that's going on, and he tells the cops everything.
He shows him where the bodies are buried. Now we've got a big deal going on here. Now we've got two homicides. We've got three guys, Chris, Paul, Andrew, and the prosecutor. One of the lamest statements ever made, and it gets worse. Says, the first one through the door gets the deal. He actually says, well, first one through the door was Andrew.
Yep. Well, of course, yeah. And he does something that, in a strange way, I have to admire him for he makes a deal with the prosecutor that if they will take the death penalty off the table, if they'll take life in prison without parole off the table, he will testify against Paul and Chris that they were involved in the murder of Dame new Wells. He gets up on the witness stand. They've already signed the deal, signed off on the deal, and he gets up and he
tells the truth. He says, I'm so, I'm one hundred percent of responsible. I'm the only one who killed him. I did it because I didn't want to get in trouble. They had. They did not know what was going to happen. They weren't expecting it. I'm the one who did it. He said, well, why did you say you testify? I guess I said, that's what you get the deal, and.
They upheld the deal. Well it was the way you know that.
They usually they don't do the deal until after you testify. Well, they'd done the deal before he testified. Uh. In fact, Andrews had a prison now you know. So it's Chris Saint Pierre.
Both give you give the update on them in their in their high school reunion that they they went to the reunion.
The strange it was that uh, first of the first Christopher Saint Pierre was was found. It was found guilty in both these murders, and on appeal he was he wasn't. He was only found guilty of hating and betting like and burying the body on the second one. On the first one because he didn't stop but he stood there. I mean, uh, you know, Andrews slashes his kids throat and Chris didn't call the cops. He didn't run away and get an ambulance. He stood there and watched uh die.
Yeah, it was overturned because he had argued that he didn't have a chance to confront his witnesses against him. And so but that of course, when you when you have an appeal and you're looking at the rest of your life or a death penalty. You know they scrutinize those cases a little bit more obviously.
I mean, as one of the attorneys said, I know the book in front of me. He said, this is Hey, guys, it.
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In the United States of America, we do have a thing called the Bill of Rights, and the trial is supposed to take place in the courtroom down the press, and you are supposed to people to confront your accuser.
Now, would I want to go back just a little bit for our audience where I need I would like you to explain how because this is really the crucial thing in this story is how on earth or why on earth did this guy who doesn't fit this profile at all, Chris Saint Pierre, Why does he suddenly decide well, I think this is the time to admit to a bunch of things here.
Because Chris was a nice guy. He wasn't nuts like his brother. He had no interest in killing people all the time. He wasn't I mean, he had a job, He had a career, you know, a job path ahead of him. He wasn't you know, I mean he was He had a very good reputation all the way around the influence. I mean had an older brother, however, who was a very dominant personality, and he could be in the shadow of his brother. The other book, I wrote, mom said kill where the little girl would do whatever
mom said. And you know she was a you know, straight a student, sports star. Everyone loved her. But if mom said do something, you did it. And if mom said kill somebody, you do it. You don't argue. And in this case, it was the brother who was the dominant personality, and he moved into the house and he really took over and things were just out of hand. I think Chris would have gone to the cops sooner if he could have got up the wherewith all of
the gumption to do it. And people who knew him, who knew the family, to this day, they said they can't believe that Chris could have ever been involved in this stuff. I mean, it was just so out of character, you know for him to he kind of like was swept away on this tide of events and the insanity of his brother. He wound up spending more time in prison than anybody.
Yeah, well, let thats why was My next question is going to answer that why did the police not just offer Chris a deal instead of throwing it out there and then having Andrew walk in and benefit from this, because that's what everyone seemed to be outraged by, that this Andrew guy is the guy that really did you know, Paul got his Chris, Like I said, they seem to focus on him or he was the Yeah, the.
Police don't make the deal. The uh, maybe they do up there, but down here in the United States of America, it's the it's the prosecutor. That prosecutor had a whole lot of read the book, and some of the things that go on reached the point where the judge in the courtroom throws a fit, says, this trial is going to be e c Henrick headache covered four hundred and twenty eight. Turns out the storms out of the courtroom couldn't take it anymore. It was just driving the judge
crazy the thing that the prosecutor was doing. So there's the prosecutors that first one through the door makes the deal, and the first one into the prosecutor's office was an attorney to make a deal with Andrew Webb. And that's the way it worked. Chris. And here's a real strange one. I don't know how much you got into this in
the book. But when Christopher had well, he was sentenced to you know, a thirtain amount of time in prison for various you know these various crime, instruction of justice, whatever, and he was posted to services his time concurrently. You know, it was all at once. Not why I forget it. Well, it came time for him to get out of prison and they didn't let him out, and they said, oh, no, you're supposed to serve it consecutively. I don't know, I'm not.
I mean, it's no secret what the sentence was. And they go, oh yeah, sure, what's the sentencing documents? Every single notarized, stamped, official copy of his sentencing has disappeared off the face of the earth. Well, there no copy of it exists anywhere in any court records. Now, I had copies of everything when I was doing the book. I had attorneys getting hold of me saying, Burrow, can you find it. I even tried to track down the there's a TV station that videotaped the sentencing, and I
found out that those tapes had been erased. There was nothing left. They brought him the judge and the court were porter to testify and the judge said, I sentenced him concurrently. Well, I'm sorry, judge, that's not good enough. We need the official documents, all of which have vanished. Uh. It was just bizarre. But that's not the strangest part the strange.
The strangest part was that. Tell us the strangest part.
The strangest part is when Paul Saint Pierre was arrested, it was very obvious that he was nuts, that he was not at that point in any mental condition to stand trial. It was very clear. And the you know, the who determines these things that this guy he cannot aid in his own defense. He kn't comprehend what's going on. This guy is severely mentally damaged, mentally compromised.
Why what do you think that was? That there was talk of you talk about and I mean I can just imagine you put in isolation as well, and there was a reason for that. So tell us why it seemed like this guy didn't really improve mentally when he was incarcerated at all.
Well? No, Well, see here's what happened is you had the two brothers, Chris and Paul. Chris was should we say, mentally Okay, Paul had severely diminished capacity already. I mean the Marines tossed him out. I mean he was dysfunctional. He was not a functional human being, had severe mental problems, violence being only one aspect of it. So the prosecution, however, wanted to try the two brothers together at the same trial at the same time. However, it was ruled Listen,
this Paul is mentally unstable. He can't stand trial. You know, he has to go off. We're going to send him to a mentalist institution for ninety days of evaluation and testing to see, you know what condition his condition is in ye as, So that means the brothers will be tried separately. Now, he'd been in this spenal institution apparently previously, and the doctor there was familiar with him. They send him down there for ninety days. How long is he there?
Less than twenty four hours. The doctor who knows him is mysteriously pulled off of the case. Another doctor who's not board certified, who'd never seen Paul before in his life, is suddenly put on the case. Rubber Stampson he's just fine to stand trial, and immediately sends him back. There's something really weird going on here.
Yeah, you can't a trial.
They get the original doctor, the one who knew the patient, up on the stand and said, why did you not examine his patient, who you had all the records on. You're examined before. Why weren't you the doctor to do this? He goes, you'll have to ask the prosecutor. He's the one who had me pulled off.
Well that's strong testimony.
So there you go. There was some effort to manipulate the entire situation to have someone who was not competent declared competent so they could try them together. Defense attorney was so outraged by this that he ran against the prosecutor in the next in the election to be the new prosecutor, and he won. Wow, so the defense attorney became the prosecutor.
Seez, that's amazing.
I mean, it's just I mean, that's ways you're crazier and crazier.
Yea, they want to the two.
Ask a good question depends on who you asked. There were three trials, mistrials, gragics, you know, recusing himself from the case. Storming out goes all the way to the Supreme court, State Supreme Court. So when I went when I was investigating this, and I went to the Washington State Supreme Court Library where they had all this material, boxes and boxes and boxes, and this is going to be a horrific thing to try to unravel. Sure, I said, uh, I'd like some of this, and they said, well, what
would you like. I looked at them and I said, I want absolutely everything we've never had anybody has for absolutely everything before it about en giant boxes and material which they loaded up and put into my car in Olympia, Washington, And uh, well, I'll tell you that. You know anyone who says, oh, this is one of those books where all they do is they put a bunch of Troyal transcripts, And anytime I read that, I want to go find the person who wrote that review and bonk them over
the noggin. Probably one of the hardest things to do when writing a true crime book and very well awareeness yourself, is to take any type of court document and turn it into any kind of understandable narrative to put in the book. Yeah, and especially when you're dealing with three trials and appeal to the State Supreme Court, you know, all that stuff can be really dry, and some people find it dry. No matter what it is. I mean, people who don't care how things work, people who only
want the blood and the guts. Oh gee, now we're into a trial. Do we have to read about the trial? You know, maybe this wouldn't be their favorite book. But people who really want to know what the hell goes on? You know, it's like law and order. They have to know that TV show a lot or Yeah, there's law and then there's order. You know, sometimes the order is not that orderly and atular it's the law. It's a law and disorder.
I think, you know, I think a lot of people read true crime. Maybe they get they get interested because I don't think it's the blood and guts guys, Because I think the blood and guts, I think a sensational story with a real interesting psychopath and then a case that's interesting. I think the true crime fan and you have true crime fans, a lot of them. I think what they recognize that that there are interesting trials as well.
There are some trials that just you know, just by virtue of the way they are, they're a little you know, more clear cut. But there are some cases that just like this one very bizarre case all the way through right to the very end. It's I mean, that's that's
what's so insane about it, you know. And when I present cases to my editor at that time, my primary editor on the book was the brilliant Karen Haas, who is no longer with Kensdy and I think it's actually with Barnes and Noble in New York, or Michael Hamilton, a chief executive editor at Kensington.
Publishing who I work with right now. I will submit cases to say how about this one, And either they'll say, yeah, no, it's too much of a smoking gun, easy to tell what's going on, or it's not, you know, it's it has to have these certain elements. Well in this case, you're looking at it and going, oh my god, the weirdest you know, Well, you got a bet.
Kensington's a real pioneer of like and this is part of your book too that a lot of people have said and I and I kind of agree with it too, because Kensington for years has put Pinnacle has put out books in thirteen shocking photos.
This one has the most shocking photos I've ever had in the book.
Yeah, yeah, you know, so coming from the guy who's who's been shocked, they're pretty shocking. Yeah, you wouldn't.
In fact, the photos for that book originally were going to be selected by Karen Hush, who was on the case, And I don't know who selected them, but had I been selecting them, I would have been a little more judicial. I mean, there really are these really are shocking photos. In fact, a friend of mine today said, you had a female I saw at the book in the bookstore and I opened it up and the first thing I saw was a decapitated body that had nightmares all night.
I'll tell you, I got a book for you. Yeah, just don't look at the pictures. Yeah, you know. And it's different to how the families react to that sort of thing. Some people are very upset that the photograph of their loved one is in a book, you know, it's looking horrible. Then there are others, such as in my book A Broken Doll, where this little seven year old girl was raped and murdered. There's a photo when they're ever decomposed bodies that they found, and the parents
wanted that picture in there. They wanted people to know what happened to their daughter. Yeah, you know, that's entirely different mindset. It just depends, you know.
Yeah, Well, you know, the thing is a lot of the a lot of the well, almost all the books that you had, you had access to some, if not all, the key players, some very very crucial players. And you've got even in this book here, you had access to the ex wife and then the sister in law. So you've got come you came close to a lot. You
had access to a lot of people. And I think that's another interesting aspect too, is the because you have that trust as a journalist, you have that background with your your true crime record, your Edgar Reward winning author.
You know, I mean, I was. I was discussing this with one of the guests on on I Show, the nice lady who knows about everything, especially about Elliott and nests. The woman are useder the Court TV Crime Library and so she knows about it virtually every case. And she was saying, like when the big networks go and I said, Gretavan's listen, or someone's going to go in and interview someone. It's like led Zeppelin arriving on tour. They come in
with these giant buses and the satellite decision. They're shoving microphones in people's faces and people who really know stuff they run and hide.
You know. Yeah, yeah, but if something you.
Know guy or woman or whatever, her me or you who just goes in and kind I asks around and builds a relationship and wants to tell the real story and we'll sit down at the kitchen table and just talk. We're going to get stuff that they're never gonna get.
That's true. That's true, And it's it's also based on how much you already know about You're not asking dumb questions. Nothing can turn off a person more than ill informed questions, right, So, and you've probably been asked a few of them yourself.
So you know, where do you have you're dis checking radio? Where do you buy your records of my favorites? The strangest story I ever heard of freshiel journalist asked was the night John Lennon was killed. Ed Copple got rattled and a asked rolled over vera, do you think the death of John Lennon will really impact a possible Beatles reugion?
Ah?
I mean even the great ones, couldn't you know, under pressure occasionally ask a peculiar question.
Yeah, yeah, that's I didn't know that one.
That's good.
Yeah, I guess you could get Yeah, amazing. Now you add in this This is for people that don't know. This book was originally released in October I believe of two thousand and one, and now Pinnacle because of demand and because it's it's just a great book and a story that is timeless. Uh, they've read or and there's
probably other reasons as well, they put out this. This is a reissue of this, and you've added some material in terms of like you say, Andrew Webb got out in two thousand and seven, Uh, tell us what that edition that you wrote and the afterward will tell us really basically the differences between the books and what you sort of added in terms of this.
Yeah, I didn't Well, there's the there isn't much difference in the primary text. There is an update of several thousand words at the end where it's what's happened between then and now? What happened to Andrew Webb. You know Andrew while he was in prison. One of the arguments for letting him out, which his sister was against, is that,
you know, Andrew found Jesus in prison. I don't know what Jesus was charged with, but he found Jesus in prison and he brought a lot of people to the Lord, and there were people who were testifying on his behalf from the prison staff, saying, you know, he's such a great Christian, we should let him out. And his sister said, if he's doing such a wonderful prison ministry, perhaps his best he stay there.
Yeah.
Well, finally, or as he was released, because he was such an exemplary prisoner and he found Jesus in prison and that's exactly where he left him. Yeah, he dropped. He dropped the you know, I mean, that's a nice gambit when you're behind bars, but you know, being an actor Christians outside of prison is is it quite the wedge that it is when you're on the inside. Much to his credit, he did manage to get several degrees
while behind bars. And he always had an interest in Nordic religions, even back back Odin and all that sort of stuff. He wrote a very very well reviewed book.
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Northern Uh, Northern Religions had formed. Actually there's a website. It's called Odin's Aire or something, and he formed a nonprofit organization basically uh, using Nordic myths, Nordic faith, the old Nordic religions, uh, in a positive way for people maybe who were in prison who didn't want to become Christians or Muslims or Jews or whatever. You know. I don't know how well that's working for him, but it was.
I was always an interest of his. But it just goes to so that that particular personality type that's gonna you know, use something. I mean, he was great at being a Christian missionary in prison. Outside Boom changed it, you know, went off in a different direction, but one
that actually uh was shall we say beneficial to his image. Sure, uh, and he started a nonprofit, he's done angry management classes, you know, And I'm in no position to pass any sort of judgment on you know, as long as he's not doing that, as one of his kids says, you know, as long as he's not he's not killing anybody, he's not violent, he's not doing home invasions, he's not doing any of those things.
That you know, it's a it's a somewhat. You know, he's turned himself around to at least to a great degree, so you know, that's beneficial rights.
It's all relative. You know, is he's killing anybody, No, is he breaking to their home with shotguns?
No?
Is he committing any crime? Is no, uh, you know, but anything beyond that you just have to say, well, and everyone's got their thing, you know, Christopher, but he did go ahead.
But but he was he uh see. The thing is you think, well, you know, he would be rewarded somewhat for testifying for the prosecution, but as you talk about in the book, he really.
Just he made fools of the prosecutions. They were very angry about that.
He doublecross them completely.
So yeah, yeah, he did, which but I say he double across the prosecution, but it was one of the few ethical things he did. He was just he played them. But when he got on the stand, he told the truth pretty much. I mean, he did make the other two fellows. He stabbed the dead guy so they could so they wouldn't rat. You know, now we're all in it together. But no one knew he was going to All they were going to do is make the kid walk home without his shoes on until Andrew flipped out.
Yeah, yeah, well it was honorable. I mean, they had they tried to be honorable among each other, amongst each other, so I guess that's what this was on the stand.
And you know, you know, the whole thing is crazy. I mean, you know, is that you know, they may be out of prison if they were in prison. Paul of course, had died almost as soon as he'd got in prison. Adam and a suicide washing. They apparently weren't watching very closely that he was murdered. But the people that were killed, Johnny Cord and Damon Wells, are both
still dead. You know, there's nothing's going to change that, and there was no reason for them to have been uh But actually I say, one reason I write these these books, is I try to elevate the victim's death to the level of sacrifice. You know, they didn't die in vain that you know, what we can learn from this case and what happened to them, how it could have been prevented. There could have been all sorts of interventions all along the way on with Paul, with Andrew
to you know, to whatever extent it was. I mean, these these were avoidable deaths. They didn't have to happen, right, if they would have, if they would have died fighting for their country, they would have gotten posthumous metals, you know, but they didn't.
But you're also exposing the judicial system in this with this particular case, to say, listen, this is regardless of whether these guys are not worthy of much, all three of them really, I mean Chris to a lesser extent. But of course, when you're accessory to murder, you're a murder, right, you know. But so, but the thing is is the the due process was not given to these guys, or Chris or or like you say, Paul was a psychopath. But it seems oddly, you know, just at the face,
it seems like a slap in the face. Yeah, he died on a toilet rope.
Toilet paper, on filled toilet paper, and suicide. Ninety days of evaluation, and they pulled the doctor off, bringing someone else who didn't read any of the material. Rubbers stamped him fine to stand trial and sent him back. I mean,
there was something obviously horribly wrong there. Yeah, you know, not too similar to in Fatal Beauty, where the way they got Ronda Glover declared competence stand trial by telling her that if it's dangerous to talk about your strange delusions, because I could get your lawyer killed, So don't mention that stuff. She was everybody's nuts when she went to trials. She was when they said she was incompetent.
Yeah, And the thing is, it's odd because it just must be the zeal for convictions rather than they must really see this. You know, these have to go to a mental institution in indefinite state as a real failure, because like I say, you know, in a different country it would be everybody would be fine with that. These prosecutors are over zealous in terms of that's why you
have almost no insanity. Yeah, you know, I think no decisions that involve insane people where clearly there's some seriously mentally ill.
As you know, there's a difference between being mentally ill and being insane. Insanity is a legal term, not a medical one. And the one of the big problems is faced by not just in the United States, I'm sure Canada's going through Europe as well, is that the assumptions that we have made for law, order and justice in our society are based on assumptions from the seventeen to
eighteen hundreds that science is proving incorrect. Well, the primary ones being is that people know this hypothetical right from wrong. They know the effect of deeds, they know consequences for actions, that there's standards of behavior. Well, yes, if you're playing with a full deck. The majority, according to a Canadian study that I read that might be in that book or one of my others, to eighty percent of people in prison in Canada have FASD fetal alcohol syndrome disorder.
And if you have FASD, you do not see the linkage between deeds and consequences. You tend to be impulsive. You can that common sense factor of well, g everybody knows. No, if you have brain damage from fetal alcohol syndrome, you don't know that. Well, you know, I mean it's here. Well, g if we what do we do? Do we give? You know, you can actually, if it's expensive, you could bring in people when they're arrested, give them a cat
scan or an MRI and see if they're brain damaged. Now, under the law, if they're brain damaged and can't function, you can't. Probably maybe there'll be an institution for the rest of their life, longer than they'd be if they were convicted. But no one will to do that. No one wants to run an MRI or a cat scan on someone's brain when they come in because it's too damn expensive and we're just going to find out that the majority of the people were arresting for violent crimes
are damaged. Well, you know.
I think what you're seeing though, is at least in terms of the public, and the public doesn't dictate what the law is or changes to the law, but it has an influence definitely when there are cases that are high profile and there are people that are outraged and
people that are very vocal. But I think what happens in Canada is completely different in that we seem to have a rush to excuse killers and even the guy that I told you about that beheaded the guy on the Greyhound bus and cannibalize the guy.
The data they're sound healthy.
This guy was still spoken about by the doctor as he responding to the medication, and we use those terms like chemical castration, and we talk about the wonder drugs that no one actually knows. I don't see. I've never reviewed any of these stats to say, yeah, you know what those things really do work. To take a person that is a is a psychopathic killer or an insane killer and then render them harmless with medication is what
this guy is saying. Will happen with this insane cannibal killer on the bus?
Well? Is this what I'm thinking? When the guy realized what he'd done, he said, kill me. I can't live with my film.
Yeah yeah, But I mean the thing is is that that's what people fear here, and we don't even have a public that even wants to know. But the people that were this case, this case really resonated across throughout Canada. But so people were talking about what if the guy doesn't take his medication? I say, how do you know that the medication works? Now? If you have a state law.
And and I know some of the states in America where if you're convicted of something like this, yes you could be insane, but still guilty, so they don't care whether you're insane. And then there was other places where you would do an indefinite stay in a mental institution.
Actually, as you say that, if you're found not guilty by reason of insanity, you will be in the mental institution longer than you would be if you were found guilty of breaking the law. In most cases, it's no get there's no get out a jail free card with it.
Yeah, So that's why I find it odd that that your prosecutors are that zealous.
So the point again, because the prosecutors down here run for election, that's right, and they want to be able to say we have a ninety ninety nine percent conviction rate, right, not a ninety nine percent justice rate. And they also go on the theory that we would not bring charges against someone unless they were guilty, even though we haven't had a trial yet. You know, why would we waste our time putting together a case against someone who was innocent?
Well guess what, yeah, Well, you know the thing is, you don't.
Go to court anyway, they're plea bargained out. Poor people don't have any options. I've seen confessions where the signature wasn't the person's signature and the niggers held wrong. Really yeah, it's like give to give the person a blank piece of paper and say you sign this, go fill in the details. Or they'll say, uh, don't worry, we'll take care of all the paper. We're going to write a confession for you. I've seen.
Yeah, I just had j Patrick O'Connor. I don't he's the editor of Crime magazine on last week, and he's got a he's got a book about the Chino Hill murders and a case of wrongful conviction that is so obvious that it's yeah, you know, he did another He did the the Jamal Muma Jamal case, you know, so that was a little more complex. This one that he does with the Chino Hill murders is like, Wow, they depended on this sex con that happened to be in the area and they knew he was in the area.
And that's a lot of people don't realize that that's the reason for sex offended registries. It's not to protect you from some sex offender because after all, if there are, if they're out living in the community, then that means that it was a long time ago, they've already been through some sort of therapy. They ain't doing anything wrong, you know, it's so you have someone to pin things on.
I don't know, because we we don't have anything like that here.
We have now here where if you have, if you have ever been arrested or convicted of any type of sex crime from even if that includes being caught urinating in the alley, you're going to be on a sex offended registry. And boy, if they get in a bind on someone to uh you know, round up usual suspects, they run a p usual suspects.
Yeah, no, it's it seems. It seems incredible because what we have is, like I said before, we just have an incredible difference where we were already plea bargaining down because they they'll make a they'll make a public statement almost really add to preliminary and say you know what we we we we have to we have to uh give this guy a manslaughter plea because we won't likely
get a conviction of second to be murdered. So they don't even start at first degree and there's a difference in getting that, so we we have a completely different situation.
So out here they do exactly the Kaylie Anthony business right where they they charge someone with no evidence and then they have trial by talk show down here, which is fairly horrifying. I I don't get it out on my show either, but they'll try the thing in the media. Then it goes to court and there's no evidence. Yeah. We like on the Michael Jackson case was one where the you know, the kid was and they shopped that. I mean, they took that case to every prosecutor in
the LA area because you don't have a case. Yeah, it's real, you know, and they just they kept going and going and going until they found wanted to go along with it.
You know.
It's like going to a doctor for you know, doctor, tell me I have such and such a disease. You don't, you don't. Finally you find one who's willing to tell you what you want to hear, and you'll find one.
Well, it's like the case with the kids Trayvon or whatever his name is, the kid uh and Zimmerman. They're finally getting charged. I mean if they just the sentiment grew the sentiment grew. Oh, and there's some athletes are are raising the stink, and some some movie actors, and all suddenly suddenly there is I mean, either there was the evidence there or there wasn't.
Well apparently. I mean, I usually don't comment on a case, have an investigator and a little I know at the time the policemen wanted to arrest the fellow, but I guess there were some connections there and then come on, let him go and no one will ever know the difference. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way. But things now, how to hell does this guy ever get a fair trial?
I mean, this whole you know, doing a trial in the media, I'm not in favor of, you know, and I've got on some shows, was that, what do you think of this case? And I say, I'm sorry, I don't comment on a case that I haven't personally investigated, or this is an ongoing investigation. First of all, it's an ongoing investigation. You don't know anything because the cops
are not going to reveal the most important information. Sure, so why are you about to talk about it when you know that whatever it is you're saying is irrelevant.
Well, but That's the thing. That's what's amazing to me is that there's so much of a market for that nonsense. But you know, it's not a testament to it's not a testament to some of the audience though, I mean, because I know what Nancy Grace, I mean, Nancy Grace. That's unbelievable that there's an audience for that guy and what's his name, Glenn Beck. But you know that's what you got.
They got Glenn. Well, Glenn has his own network.
Now.
I think rita cave somewhere, you know, just you know. The one thing I remind myself is if the people who get all worked up, you know and watching that and taking beds, why I think so and so did it when they don't know what the world they're talking about. These aren't the people who actually do any think. I mean as far as like, if they really cared about the dead baby of the week, they would volunteer for at risk kids in their own community or troubled moms
where they could really make a difference. You can't make a difference sitting in front of your TV, said yelling at somebody. You know, they spend as much time as they do watching that show to go out and volunteer in their own community. Maybe some other lives would be saved. But you know what, these people don't buy my books. They don't buy yours either.
You know.
The people who do is entirely different. I mean, some of them do, but overall it's a different stratumy society, a different mindset of people who want to know what's really going on. Actually a shift. And the majority of true crime readers are women. And it's always been a think about you, how do you get men interested in true crime? Well, that's something I've been working on, and I think you're being successful at Allso as we're starting to get males men who are reading true crime and going,
you know, this is rather interesting. Yeah.
Well, you know the thing is, it's amazing how many guys will tell me, yeah, I haven't read a book since high school, and I'm going, well, I wouldn't tell anybody of that.
But yeah, and brag.
But I agree with you though, too, that some of these stories that you can see some of the authors that handled the grittier stories, you know, no offense to women at all. But the guys handled the grittier stories, you know, they handle the cases with the crazier and more brutal killers, because you have to have you have to have a strong stomach for what they just went through.
And I really know I wasn't born to be a coper and our technician or anything like that. The first one like this, I did, you know, serious true crime book, Murdering the Family was a rape and murderer of like what a six year old and a four year old or a three year old or something. It was just horrifying. I mean it was just so upsetting. And Gary C. King, who is a great true crime author on your shore or not and yet yeah, well used to have them
on anyway. He told me when I went to do my first one for Kennidy, he said, be prepared to cry a lot and have nightmares. He says, because you're gonna have to deal with things, you know that if you're got to have it that, if you don't have that background, if you're not a you know, like an emergency room technician or a doctor, a copp or something, you're not used to having to deal with that.
Yeah, and.
People call us bloodsuckers. They think we're getting rich off the pain of others. I don't think newspapers who do a superficial version of a story get hate mail. I don't think TV stations to do superficial versions on the news of who killed who get hate mail. But if you devote a year of your life the painstaking invests of a trial and a case and the people involved, all of a sudden, you're a bloodsucker. Well, you know.
Luckily, I've never had anybody actually say that, but I know the sentiment, and I've spoken to other authors on this program that have said the same thing, and I was surprised at some of the you know, the reaction to what you guys have done, because I mean, I've read I don't know how many true crime books. They are such, they are historical. There are a lot of
time really part autobio, not autobiography, biographical. They're very much for the guy that reads the serious nonfiction who says, I don't read true crime once he reads the story a really good one, a book like yourself, a story that's that he didn't know about. That's what's really amazing.
I think that those particular books keep coming back. Lowell call Field, for example, his book Houses Secrets, Yeah, which has been around long time, and that is. In fact, that's the book that got him out of the true crime business. I mean it was both had such a gut wrenching impact on him, and he stopped writing true crime. Fabulous, A fascinating guy, an incredible book. I mean you want
to read. Of course, to me, the all time most important non fiction true crime book is Jack Olson's book Last Man Standing, the true story of the framing of Geronimo Pratt for murder by the FBI and the LA prosecutors. Twenty seven years in prison, mostly insulitary of confinement for a crime that everyone, I mean, the FBI knew he didn't do it, the prosecutor knew he didn't do it.
Yeah, yeah, you know Jack Olson. You know what was interesting too, is I when I first start to see your stuff, like I said to you, as Broken Doll was the first book I saw, and I was in the library of every library had Broken Doll. And then I start seeing some other titles and paperback and so I said in pardon me. And so what happened is that Jack Olson was another one of those people. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know any true crime fans, but I start reading Jack Olson and I
just I love the guy. And then when I saw his review of you. When I saw his review of you saying that you were the guy, you were the you were the real deal, I said this, this is amazing endorsement.
Because Jack Old, think do you think you think it was an amazing endorsement? I really thought it was. Yeah, yeah, you know, my favorite, my favorite. You got to kick out of that. You got to kick out of doing that because I gave him. We used to talk on the phone all the time. Made his soul rest in peace. And he did an article where he was complaining about the True Crime was all a bunch of barbage, all a bunch of crap.
Yeah, I read that.
I read that. Okay, it was the paper I called. I said, Jack, you know, as long as you're saying all those horrible things about true Crime, could you at least say something nice about me? And he laughed and said, Burrow, what does I say on the cover of your book? Says Pearl Bear rights True Crime his best Jack Olson,
it's even above your name. They go, yeah, he goes, more people are going to see the cover of your book that are going to see the newspaper article because you've got nothing to worry about.
Yeah, no, absolutely. My favorite jack Olson was his last book, I The Creation of a serial Killer.
Oh yeah. When he told me, he says, Burley says, this is gonna be my last true crime book.
Really, oh yeah, he did he know he was he was sick or passed.
Oh, he had just had it. In fact, he was telling me, he said, Burley, just get out of food crime while you can. We will end up like me. And I said, well, that's not too bad enough like you, because he goes, no, I don't mean in terms of quality, he said, he'll wind up. You know. Uh. There was a lot of work, a lot of emotional drain for not a lot of renumeration. Yeah, he said, you know, you really should try to get out of it. That's why he said that what he wrote, that book I
created for serial killers. This is the last one. I'm never going to write another true crime book. Well, he was so disheartened about what happened with Last Man Standing. He called me up. He said, bro go down the bookstore and uh, and they're just claiming, wait, have a jack Olson book came out to be right in the window, you know, on the best seller list. They have big signs up. You know, here's the old latest jack Olson book. I go down, I walk and I don't. I look
in the window and I don't see it. I look on her best sellers, don't see it. Look at her new releases, don't see it. So I walk up to the you know, the person, I say, excuse me, do you have Last Man Standing by Jack Olson? And this is something that you know would be right there in the window, you know, And he gets a little computer. He goes, oh, yes, we haven't filed them back under black studies. Black studies. Well yeah, because Pride was black and he wasn't. I says, this is what happened. He
says it was book was intentionally buried. He says, whether the FBI put pressure on him. I mean he told him not to put Geronimo Press picture on the cover. Straight as sad as it is, if there's a picture of a black man on the cover of a book, uh, it uh reduced the sales by forty fly christ And well, while I bolt will wind up having it filed under black studies, which it was. Yeah yeah, wow yeah.
Well that that would that would outrage me. I mean, it would outrage you too, So that's yeah if I like the new cover they put on the headshot, Yeah, yeah, as a new cover and total.
Yeah, they're doing some nice stuff. And one of your favorites of my book is coming out with the revised edition in December. They're coming out with a new edition of BodyCount.
Oh, right on, right on. We'll have to get you back on talk about that. That was a well received interview to body Counts. An amazing story. Yeah.
Yeah, Well serial killers they have a way of tracking and following.
Oh they're charming, aren't they. Yeah, Oh they're fascinating guys. Yeah, I was gonna Also, we have this opportunity you can tell people about the true crimes on heart issues. American Horrors.
Yes, Tuesday nights at seven o'clock Pacific time, Weday seven ish, because sometimes the movie that's some before it's then. I think I just said some Danzel Pansky guy has something coming on after us. That's what I heard. Yeah, every Tuesday night at seven o'clock on American Horrors, which is a TV channel that you can get via your computer online and stream it right to your iPad, your iPhone, your TV whatever through film on dot Com and I've
got great channels to subscribe to it. I just if you just want to get American Horrors, you get there for like two dollars or fifty cents a month or something.
Yeah, two bucks.
In fact, where we're doing some shooting, some new shows a week from Saturday with Wetly mentioned a little call Field. We're gonna have a little call Feel and famous Hollywood private Eye Fred Wolfson and Don Wolman and myself, and of course I'll also do the True Crime Uncensored on Saturdays, an not already with Howard Lapitas, manager of Doctor Drew Pinsky.
Yes, Celebrity Rehab, so yeah.
In the new version is going it's gonna be called Real Rehab, no Celebrities Tour. I think relapse relapse. Yeah, And what was I gonna say? What is the next book you're going to have released from a Pinnacle again of course, but actually before a body Count comes out with a new edition in December. Our Berry Flowers is the editor of what's called Masters of True Crime's Yeah, and apparently I'm a Master of True Crime or Mastered by Domain because I miss a book with the Alaska
male bomb conspiracy. And that's all a guess you might enjoy having and I could ookay up with the Jim Bordenay of the United States Postal Inspection retired was the state's postal inspection. They're goind of like the f b I, except under the Postal service. Oh yeah, and you know they got a UNI bomber and all that. He's got faceating stories and he helped me a great deal on that. It was originally going to be a book, but the publisher wound up going to prison. That a different story.
But for Masters of True Crime comes out in July, I believe, and then December Body Count comes out. In the meantime, I'm working on a supernatural thriller for Lee Goldberg and William Rapkin is the dead Man series, and a new Saint novel.
So yeah, it was gonna you know, that was It's amazing your background here with the Saint, that the family, you know, the you know you're such a fan of the Saint. You did the non fiction book that everything you know the history of the Saint, and then they they said to you, they said, we want you to continue with this, you know this legacy.
I wrote the wrote a book called Capture the Saint an original book and the series that they really liked, and I did the novelization of the film, and now I've got another novel and the worst called tentatively the Return of the Saint. The only reason it's called that is the UK publisher said they wanted that to be the title could wind up being changed between now and then.
But it's fun, you know, it's very samely and as with the Capture the Saint, we you don't bring back some of the old characters and have a good time, and you.
Do so also you have because there's a book called Headlock and then this one's called Headshot, and you know that was very strange.
They came out the exact same time. And Travis Webb is in both books. Yeah, because it's see Travis Webb is a friend of mine who's also quite an accomplished journalist as well as one of the top rave promoters in the world. Really based out of Seattle, if I know him up there in Canada. I wrote a fiction novel where I'm the star, where I'm the hero. It's called Headlock, and I have Travis in the book as himself. Well after we did that, he called me up and said,
I never told you about my uncle Andrew. He might make a good book. And that, of course is amazingly enough. They came out found up being published at the same time, two different publishers, one called Headshot and one called Headlock, one fiction, one nonfiction.
So yeah, amazing, Yeah, the same people in them. And you do have a practice of or a habit of sort of taking names and switching them a little bit too, taking the fictional.
And yeah, I used the names of real people in my fiction books. I have found my friends friends of mine show up in a lot of books. Donald McCook, who is a friend of mine in England. She is the love interest of the jet pilot in Stealth, which is only available in Japanese, but if any of your readers read Japanese you can get that one. And Travis Webb shows up and not only in h in Headlock, but I think he also shows up in a couple
of other fiction books. Chet Rogers, who does commentary There's a news, real newscaster the commentary I believe in Uh Headshot also shows up in the book The Faint You Know by the Val Kilmer movie, the novelization of that playing as a newsman in Russia. I tend to stick people out and friends of mine in books. I'll put you in one making you can be a victim or a killer or something either one, either one. You don't care anymore that well.
Actually, when when the case was finished they put in the paper, they they interchanged the name of the killer for me basically, so I was basically telling the killer about the story in the hope of getting a lot of money for the murder that I committed. And then so I called him up and said, hey, guys, guys, uh backwards, And so they retracted it, and I could barely find a retraction. So I went, well, there you go, thanks.
Uh, that's to uh what was it? Oh, in the book they fixed this. But in the original version of Headshot, they had the prosecutor's name out of the defense attorney's picture, a vice versa.
It's not good for business.
Yeah, so I think they fixed that now.
Yeah, And who do you have on this week on Outlaw Radio on two crimesone censors the author of.
The prosecutor actually of a charmer the millionaire rape.
Right, Yeah, I'm gonna have that. I'm going to have those folks on soon. I've got them scheduled too, so.
Oh good what you can listen to Saturday won't find out?
Yes, absolutely, we'll always do you know.
Your show and steal your guests and vice versus. You know, they overlap different styles and all the wind up getting different stuff out of them. Yeah.
Absolutely. And you get some guys that you know, I mean, I just I wouldn't even have thought of. And some people that are won't come on my show.
Sometimes you get done that won't come on my show. I don't know what.
I don't know what the heck it is.
Yeah, yeah, and I'm not interested click.
I guess once they feel well, I've already had that guy.
I mean, I don't know.
They're probably similar.
I forget it.
One's good enough.
Maybe that are I scared him so bad they don't want to be at anybody show.
Well, maybe I scared him. I don't know. One of those they they they just give up. They retire. So yeah, so that's been It's been a lot of fun, Burrow like usually.
It's always a pleasure to be on your show. And of course if people missed it listen to it live, it could always catch it on the podcast. The downloads.
I hope they do, and I wanted to mention too, thanks to great authors like yourself, but guys that really seem to be the community of true crime guys, authors like myself, first time guys uh, and I think the audience really has U. I've loved hearing guys like yourself talk about their books and all the great guests. A lot of Pinnacle authors as of tomorrow will be one million programs and downloaded in about two years four months.
So wow to make that announcement and thank the audience, because like the interview we had with you and uh and don and and hart Fisher, sixty five thousand people tuned in. So it's just it's getting.
Maybe a lot was just clumsy and they kept downloading it over and over again.
Well that's probably what happened. No, it's it's it's really just the the the cowbler of guests and the kind of programs I get. Uh, you know, email fan mail from everywhere Sweden, England, Australia, and people are fanatical, said I, oh, I download this lady that listens to the appropriate has Victoria says, I listened to one hundred and seven programs several times, so.
Oh yeah, perhaps you need a hobby. Thet's yeah, she's probably just a big fan.
No, No, it's great. It's it's I'm getting a lot of really good feedback. And it's because of guys like yourself to come on.
And we watch, and I always tell O audists wind your show too. So, yeah, did a good job.
It's our little true crime community because, as I said to one person already, I know the crime doesn't pay, but I'm really up, really I want to make sure true crime does pay, you know.
So it's it's a rough it's a rough gig. It's a lot of work, and you know, in case people haven't figured out, we're not getting rich doing it. And the books are a lot of work and research intensive. It can be very emotionally draining, but hopefully, you know, some things will make it worthwhile. I got. I've had a couple of letters from from people who send me heartfelt letters that reading the book was able to give
them closure on these cases. Sometimes it was law enforcement people who've been carrying it around with them for years, or one was a medical tech who had to deal with the murdered children and the murdering the family case. And years later they've come across the book and the readers they were able to find it put themselves at peace with it. So when I get letters like that, I go, she's all worth it. It's worth it. Yeah.
And you know, just another story similar to that, I met with the the head of the police associate. We didn't take police association. He's a former homicide detective and he we went for coffee for about forty five minutes. You know, this guy's probably pretty busy doing things. There's a lot of murders were murder capital but he still he gave me a Winnipeg Police Association had We had coffee and he wanted a couple of autograph books and it thanked me for my contribution to the case.
You know what, you know, before I go, I got to mention Bobby her Berry, who is a detective in the case and headshot. Fantastic guy and if you do a little search on Google whatever, I have an interview with him, has posted on the internet that people will really enjoy.
So that's yes, SCA, I'm going to check that out. Yeah, he is quite the character in this as well too, so that.
A great guy. Three generations of Tacoma police.
Wow. Yeah, interesting yeah, in a busy place too.
Oh yeah yeah yeah. It used to be the entire town was off limits to service personnel. Oh really yeah, v DVD Capital of the state. Oh, if you want a social disease, we can tell you where to go.
Yeah nice, that just boosted tourism about.
Yeah well it did then, it does now in the old days.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Well.
Anyways, Burl, thank you very much for for this.
I pleasure time and.
Hope to talk to you real soon and I'll be listening on Saturday Outlaw Radio True Crimes Uncensored. So for those and for those who are listening, the book is Headshot by Burl Bear. Check out his h uh many other books, nonfiction and fiction. So thanks very much, Burl.
Have a good night, pleasure, have a good knight. Bye bye, bye bye