FINAL EXAMS-Cyril H. Wecht and Dawna Kaufmann

chumbacasino dot com. No pursonesses, every dvob by losty terms, conditions eighty plus. It is Ryan here, and I have a question for you. What do you do when you win?

md JD, one of America's most respected forensic pathologists. Co authored by crime writer Donna Kaufman, Final Exams explores both the technical and the human side of murder, from the heartbreaking case of abductive child Jessica Lunsford, held captive within shouting distance of her loved ones, to the peculiar story of a murder for hire with a most unlikely victim.

Final Exams takes the reader behind the scenes. Secrets about the private lives of both predators and victims are revealed as the authors detail the events that turn rage to tragedy. Fans of CSI will appreciate how Weckt and Kaufman share the real life process of solving crimes with clues left with the victim. The book that we are featuring this evening is Final Exams. With my special guest, doctor Cyril Weckt and Donna Kaufman. Welcome to the program, Donna Kaufman

and doctor Weckt. Thank you very much for meet this interview. K Now, before we start it, I think it's fascinating the background of both of you, people that got together three books ago. This is your third collaboration. Tell us about your illustrious and very important background, doctor weck and then we'll ask for Donna Kauflin's background, and then we'll ask how you came to collaborate together. So if you could give us some of the important background of yourself, doctor Weckt.

Alabama at Maxwell Air Force Base Hospital. Then when I got out, I did my fellowship as a research fellow in forends of Pathology and associate pathologist in the Office of the Chief Federical Exambitor of Maryland. I had also gone to law school at pitt for a couple of years while I was in my residency before the Air Force, and then I finished my third year when I got out of the Air Force at the University of Maryland. In the evening while I was doing my fellowship, I

came back to Pittsburgh. I've met my wife in the Air Force and we married that fall and we've been here ever since. I have been working as a friends of pathologists and as a hospital pathologist. I have a private apology laboratory for a while, and I've been doing medical legal consultations now for about fifty years for attorneys all over the country, several and criminal cases workers compensation, murder, medical law, practice wrong for their personal injury, product liability, rape,

sexual assault, the drug abuse and so on. And I've had the opportunity to work on some very interesting cases in a few foreign countries around the world, and I've testified in some foreign countries too. I have gotten involved academically over the years too, and I have adjunct to clinical professorships schools at the Duking University, at two schools at the University of Pittsburgh and then also distinguished professor

at Carly University here in Pittsburgh. I have some adjunct of clinical professorships at medical schools in Arizona and Georgia and Nigeria. I met the Donna some years ago, she'll remember more vividly than I let her talk about that, and we became as we are now, very good personal friends as well as people who like to work with each other and spend a lot of time talking, mostly by phone because we're such a great distance away, but we have developed a great report. So that's the story

of my background here. I've lived in Pittsburgh, have had four wonderful little children, married, and fortunately for my wife and me, they are here in the pit Burg area with eleven grandchildren. So that's see, that's my background in

a nutshell. I've done a lot of writing. I've about five hundred and seventy published articles, chapters, and books, and about I think about forty four or so books of which I'm the editor or co editor, author or co author of in the professional field, and then eight books for the general public. Of the last three as you mentioned, with Donna Kaufman as my co author, and five previously with some other very fine writers who were my co authors too, and we're working on another book to be

published next year. But right now we're enjoying the talking about Final Exams, which is a book that Donna will talk more about and tell your listeners on how they can gain access to this keybook.

of Pittsburgh, which is pretty amazing. So when it comes to choosing cases, I have that job and I can choose from the very best, juiciest, most interesting cases from a forensical lea medical point of view. I asked my background, I'm a comedy writer, which you go, well, what is that, but it's actually all research. And I have a lot of television credits as a producer and television writer on

comedy series, variety shows. And at a certain point, I just said, I need something more substantial than this silliness I'm involved in, and I decided, well, I was going to embrace true crime, and you could say I did. Since then, I've written thousands of articles, these books, and I've worked on every high profile case of our time that involves a high profile homicide, kidnapping, child abuse, child murder case kind of my specialty. And you know, I

attend the trials. I get very rap up in the investigations, and with doctor Wett, I can fill in a lot of the material after he gives me his medical and legal opinions on these cases that he has worked on, some of which I have also written independently. I fill in the backgrounds of who the people are and what their families go through, and what their what the essence of the trial, and who the individuals are. So I think we make a really good combination there.

happy about. You know, his testimony can put somebody on death row, which we have here in the States, not that we like that, or he can take somebody off death row. So the power of what he does on a day to day basis is just phenomenal. So these four cases, two of them are from Pittsburgh, the Pittsburgh area and where he did perform the autopsies, and one is from New York City, and one is from Florida.

So we also try to have different means and motives and manners of death and causes of death and sets of circumstances. So that's how we pick them. And thank you for reading the book.

examiner does. Your role, doctor Weck, you've described in this book in great detail, very very fascinating what exactly you do in terms of that autopsy and what you can provide to authorities later in terms of crucial evidence. So if you could briefly just tell us what is it that you look for and what can you find during an autopsy that you've performed thousands and thousands of tell us about the procedure of the actual autopsy for us, please.

et cetera. Then Fends of Apology is has been since nineteen fifty nine a formerly recognized subspecially requiring additional training and then certification by the American Board of Pathology and National examination given to women and men who complete that training. Forends of Apologists for the most part work in or four corner and medical examiner's offices, liked all medical specialties. Of course, there's private work consultations which I do, writing

and teaching and so on. But most people think of the fends of Capologists within the context of an official governmental medical legal investigative office, that is, a medical examiner or corner, And in fact I have been corner of Alleghany County, Pittsburgh and Sourronal ammunities for twenty years, two separate ten year terms, four years before that as chief Forends of Capologists, and even a year and a half before that as an assystem oftic attorney, a medical legal

advisor to the District Attorney of Allegheny County in addition to my role as corner of Allegheny County going back to the late sixties and continuing to the present time. So what's that that's forty five years almost. I have been also doing the autopsies for corners and district attorneys in several surrounding counties, which I continue to do, the last two such autopsies having been performed about five hours ago today. Donna mentioned you might have two or three

last week. I did six one day. Then there's some days of course, so you don't have any that varies because needless to say, they're not schedule of like patients and schedule appointments with doctors. But I'm on I did number three hundred and fifty five today I shall reach about four hundred, which is a lot more than any fronts of caropologists to my knowledge. I shouldn't say any,

just say almost all. There's always some exceptions do on a full time basis who do nothing else but work as a full time friends of pathologist in a corner of medical Examiner's office. The National Association of Medical Examiners, the quasi professional group recognizing and dealing with Emmys and corners. Friends of Pathologists and so on. They recommend two hundred

and fifty maybe three hundred a year. So that just gives you an idea of what I do and what I'm continuing to do, and so far as how I do it, I want to do. Bodies are then brought to me. We have a laboratory set up at Carly University where I established a teaching program for these young women. It's a Catholic, well it's Catholic as co ed, but I don't see many men around still, mostly young women. And this program has been in existence since twenty oh two.

These young ladies learning forensic science, they learn how to do autopsies. They just love it. Of course, that's not the endpoint in our eyes, and we encourage them very much to go on to medical school to do graduate work in other fields of forensic science, helps related fields, et cetera. So the bodies are brought to me, mostly cornered district attorney's cases, and then I do private autopsies

for families and then maybe looking for medical malpractice. They may be second autopsies in cases where someone who is in charge with homicide or so on. And I have bodies that are flown to me not every day or every week, but the bodies in the course of a year. They might be California, might be Florida. Mostly of course, they're driven from different places in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and then so on. But the bodies have brought to me some maybe about five percent of my total number. The bodies

are brought in. And then, depending upon the case, you do your photography. You collect materials. If it's a suspected known and lash murder and you want to collect hair, fingernail scrape things, you collect things on the clothing. All the time these things are being photographed. I State Police or.

one ear to the other. The scalp is reflected. The top of the scalp is removed by means of electric sauce, and you have access to the brain, the twelve cranial nerves, all the arteries and veins, and surrounding structures within the cranial vault. The brain is then removed and the examined, except in some cases where you fix it and formula for two weeks in order for it to develop a more firm consistency and permit examination in a more meticulous fashion.

That's especially true if you have a brain has been traumatized, like gunshot wounds or things of that nature. Then the second incision is a y shaped incision in the front of the body. You start at the enter your crest of each shoulder, and you move diagonally downward to the bottom of the stern and the breastplate, and then a straight line continuing over the abuvent. Then you reflect the

skin subcontain these fat and muscles. You lay them back, and you remove the breastplate, and you have access to all the organs and tissues in the Thorassic, the chess cavities and the abnominal and pelvic cavities. You look at the organs and tissues in place. You take pictures as are needed and are relevant, and then you begin to

remove the organs and tissues. Before you do that, you get your specimens for toxicology blood bile, bil from the gallbladder, urine, and then sometimes we all also collect pieces of solid organs, sometimes fluid from behind the eye vitreous humor, and sometimes spinal fluid because those two fluids are kind of sequestered and they give more valid chemical results. But then it

does blood in certain cases. So the organs are taken out, they're examined and palpated, weighed, measured, and then serially sectioned to see what disease processes, abnormalities are present, et cetera. And you know, depending on the case. Last week got a double homicide suicide. The two homicide victims were shot each as I recall, six times. We had to trace

each bullet from its entrance to its exit. We had to find the bullets, and when they're twenty two caliber, they're just small pieces of metal, easily found even with X rays, and you know, that's a different kind of a ballgame. But you do all those things and then you submit the specimens to toxicology laboratory. I'm not a toxicologist I interpret the results and correlate them with my findings.

But the tests are done by a toxicology lab and then tissues are submitted for microscopic exam, just like in a hospital, as somebody's lung cancer or gallbladder or appendix or stomach als are submitted to the pathologists for examination. So is that what we do with our cases? And then the slides come back to me. I studied the microscopically.

Toxicology results come back to me. Criminalistics reports may come back to me from the state police crime lab with such things as ballistic studies on the weapon, the bullets, the knife, and other things in DNA, etc. All of that is then put together by the forensic apologists and in this case me, But this friends of capologies is the person to whom everything comes back and is then put together in structured fashion so that the cause of death and the manner of death and the mechanism of

death can be officially determined and then ruled upon. So that's the way a friends of apologist functions. And then of course you follow through as necessary when it's time to testify. In the cases in which I do autopsies for corners and matter of gammers. I'm going to be called, I'm sorry, district attorneys. I'm going to be called as a witness for the prosecution cases that I do privately and in consultation. I'm a witness for the defense in

civil cases. It might be plainted, it might be defense, and so on. You coal miners autopsies for people looking for black lung asbestosis, mesophilioma, people have been exposed to asbestos, and so on. That's what a forensic pathologist does. Thank you.

and that being Jessica Marie Lunsford. So tell us the outline of this heart wrenching story, Donna.

morning and saw that she wasn't in her bed. And he lived in a trailer with his parents and Jessica and the family dog, and he woke up their parents and said, where is she? And they said, wait to hear We don't know. You know, the dog didn't bark what happened? So they looked around, they couldn't find her, and all of a sudden it went on. It went

on the news, and people began searching for Jessica. The Homo sassa police or the sheriff decided to make him the chief suspect, which is understand well, because you always

investigate from the center outward, but they never went outward. Well, it turns out that she had been stolen from her bed, not by her father or grandfather, but by a predator who lived across the street in another trailer, and that guy brought her over to his trailer which was filled with his drug idled relatives and raper and she died. And she died because he buried her alive on the property. So everyone knows that I'm not giving away anything that

people don't know. But what they're not going to know because of our unique perspective on this case, is what happened inside that investigation. And it will just it will anger people to see what happened. It'll baffle them about why this wasn't investigated better. And I could see from my forensic background, I could see that there were mistakes made in this case. So I brought doctor Wett in and contacted an attorney and said, do you need some

help on this to file a civil case? And he said yes, And I said, I think I know the person who can help you. Doctor West had just written a book with doctor Henry Lee, famous criminalist, on proper police procedure, and they got involved, and there were plenty

of places to go with that lawsuit. But the community turned against Mark Lunsford, the father, and you know, he's kind of one of these characters that didn't ask to be thrust into this world, but once he did, he embraced it in many good ways, and he's been helpful to a lot of other missing children families. But he's also an angel with a tilted halo, which we get into which I don't think a lot of people understand or have the info, so that it's a very interesting

case with a lot of implications. The killer ended up dying before he could be executed on Florida's death row, and the whole thing about that trial, which was just

nerve wracking, is also in the book. So there are just things that you won't know about if even if you watch that trial, and it just gripped America like nothing I can remember in a missing child case, well maybe Kasey Anthony, Kaylee Anthony, which we wrote about in a previous book, but it was a really heartfelt case and boy, very emotional, Donna.

But still people understand that this little girl could have been saved and should have been saved, and would have been saved if they had done even a basic investigation that you'd expect from a couple of the freshman cops.

hang on. She was watching that. She knew they were looking for her, but she was so scared and so mind warped by this monster that she didn't think to leave and go outside and say here I am dad. But had the cops brought in a properly investigated with

right you know, the dogs and everything else. Had they knocked on that door because they knew that this guy was a predator on the sex offender list, had they really investigated, had they gone inside, they would have found her in hiding in the closet and they knocked on the door and said is Jessica here, No, okay, that went on to the next So it was it was just pathetic. It was pathetic they how they investigated this case.

I don't want to digress, but I think of the Cleveland case with the three young women that were kept there for years and so on, these young girls, and of course Jessica was just a child, you know. It's a kind of a Stockholm syndrome. They become and then are scared to death. And so people say, how come she didn't do this, how come she didn't do that? But she would have been so easily and readily found.

It's a tragedy. And then of course, the great tragedy from a medical pathological standpoint talk about emotional pain and suffering. This little girl was buried alive. She was not dead when she was buried, and there were clear indications on the the the receptacle so to speak, i'll call it that in which he was placed to indicate that she was alive. And so this was all part of the

picture that played off. And this would have been a very big feature in the civil case where you deal with what you know Dan of course, so well as to any conscious pain and suffering that becomes a major major feature there. There would have been no question about who caused the girl's death, and no question about the cause of death and the manner and mechanism of death, but the conscious pain and suffering and and that would

have you transposed on over to the family. It's it's a shame it wouldn't have time or maybe need to go into it any further that the civil lawsuit did not proceed and and be consummated ultimately as it should have been informal legal fashion, and why it.

this case. And this is a fifty two year old white self help guru, as you say, drove from his tony house in the suburbs to Harlem found a stranger off the street who was a drug addicted black eye and said, hey, I'll give you all my money, but I need you to help kill me. Now, I have never heard a case like this. Doctor Wess, of his million and a gazillion cases, he's never had a case like this. The detectives who worked at the reporters who talked about it, no one has ever seen a case

like this. That's so unusual. And this guy is talked into it because he's sitting in the car of a guy who makes his millions by being motivational speaker. And why does he do it well? Because this is going to get done one way or the other. And he asks the guy to help him commit suicide so that his family can collect insurance money.

why this really was not a homicide. The guys was convicted of homicide and given a life sentence essentially, and just two weeks ago it was overturned unanimously by a New York appellate judge excused the channel, and they are going to possibly give him a new trial. He does not belong in jail for the rest of his life. He does belong in jail, and he knows it for some time, but not for the rest of his life. So doctor Weck, maybe you can explain what the medical information is on that.

And by the way, let me say that the policies, most of them were not paid of those that were paid, I think to my knowledge that money has been recovered by the insurance companies. So anyway, a locker goes in to Harlem. He's conned first by another guy out of quite a bit of money I think maybe close to

ten thousand dollars. And the other guy winds up then not showing up on the scheduled appointment, and a minor then is the next guy who is talking into it, and you know, he really doesn't want to kill this guy. He's supposed to get a gun and he doesn't even get a gun. And my locker says, well, there's a knife in the glove compartment, and he has Minor hold the knife the hilt down against the steering wheel and the blade pointed straight out from the steering wheel toward

the chest of the driver. He Minor, they soon to be. I'm sorry, locker, Locker, they soon to be. A victim has Minor tie his highnds behind his back. I think, well, for two reasons, one to make it appear definitely like a homicide, and two I believe I'll never know this for sure, but I think it's reasonable conjecture so that he can't and when the pain occurs with the knife going into his chest that he willing to reach out

with it with his hands. In any event, he and minor holds the nyknife and Locker then plunges his body into the knife a few times and the blade going in. And what is very interesting and very very significant then to me as a princithropologist in reconstructing this, just think, if it is truly a homicide and you are being stabbed,

you're going to be moving around. Your body's going to be twisting and turning, and the stab wounds will be coming in from different directions, not necessarily and widely dis first topographical parts of your anatomy, but certainly not in a small tight cluster. In this case, all the wounds were in a very tight cluster, clearly indicating that there is no attempt by mister Locker to prevent himself from being stabbed, but rather a continuing movement, a repetitive movement

into the knife and thereby sustaining these wounds. Now, there is no state in America that allows someone to kill somebody to help them in a suicide, no matter how whatever the motivation may be is. You could be married to somebody for sixty years and that somebody is dying in in extreme pain and begging you, begging you to help them kill themselves. They don't have their strength to do it, and you do it because of this, this love for the person that you've lived with for sixty years.

But that's still going to be manslaughter. And have there been a manslaughter charge, and then a miner's attorney, a good attorney, a very good attorney, would have accepted that, and that would have been the end of it, because, by the way, we haven't mentioned this. Don and I the detective initially, you can imagine and when they were told this story, they see, sure, tell me another cocamane. They came to realize, I want to make a career tot that there is no dispute, no dispute as to

the validity of the story, none at all. It all comes down then to the legality, the technicality. But the prosecutors for reasons that I don't fully understand, except that I guess that's the prosecutorial bent of people who become prosecutors, that it's not good enough for them to say, Okay, we understand what she did, we don't accept it. However, it wasn't the right thing to do, and you're going to go to jail on a manslaught of charge that

they proceed to convict them on second degree murder. And I think the sentence, I don't know, forty to sixty years, which, as Donna says, whereas an essence for a middle aged person, a lifetime sentence. So he does have the new trial that has been ordered by the public court in New York City. It has not yet been scheduled to my knowledge, it will be. And I have a feeling, in fact, I'm going to make a prediction. I could be wrong.

I hope I will be right, not just to be right, but I hope that they will make a bargain and they'll let him plead guilty to manslaughter, and for the time already served and which will have been served by the time and this is all over, that it won't be too many years before he's out of prison. You know,

he's really not a bad guy. And to hear him speak, which you can do on that TV program, you see that this is a man who speaks really for someone who has not had formal education, quite lucidly, quite logically. He doesn't try to make excuses for himself, and he

just tells it like it is and talks about what happened. Well, by the way, you know this case, going back to the initial investigation, when the detectives who were thinking this was a lot of cock and bull, when they went to the home to tell the now widow and her three teenage kids that her husband and their father died, they got about as much reaction someone that tells you on your way home tonight, gee, I think you may

have run over a squirrel. That's the kind of reaction they got from me from the family.

that's okay, dad, I'll get a job. We'll help you know, we'll dig in and get through this. No, okay, see it, see it, pops. We don't want to lose our lifestyle.

think that that may have been a part. On the other hand, Dan, as you know, a lot of most people, including some attorneys that don't do the trial work, don't appreciate either that when in the public court reviews the case, if they find on a particular point that there is a basis to reverse, most often that's where they stopped. And I mean, you know, just go on and give

you a full analysis. And if they so, there was a there was some some very strong legal arguments, and I think those were the principal reason why the case is overruled. But I think that the judge judge who was admonished, and it was her ruling, by the way, her language, her instructions to the jury, that resulted in the public court overturning the case. And I think that there's good reason to believe that her ruling in not allowing me to demonstrate how these wounds could have been inflicted,

would have been an important part of it. And I think that the the misist Attorney's office is likely to consider that. I don't mean they're going to be afraid of my testimony, but they're going to think about all the different elements that will come into play, perhaps in a second trial.

And even after we said, hey, no death penalty, Okay, no, we'll take that off the table, you still kind of protected her and not you personally, but doctor Bagbie, who was his parents, actually moved to Canada to try to help with the help get the case moving. And while she was in court, she said, oh, I'm pregnant, and turned out that she was pregnant with the grandparents only child,

only grandchild. The murdered doctor was their only child. Now she gives birth to their only grandchild, who looks exactly like his daddy did when he was at age. And these grandparents know that the only way they can have access to this baby is to make nice with this woman who killed their son and at least in the hopes of getting the child. The baby when she went

to jail. Well, I won't give away the ending on this, but it is something that your readers just won't believe, and doctor Whet obviously never had a chance to testify in this case and would have liked to because it was really one of those emotional cases. There's a documentary that was made about it called Dear Zachary, which will just rip your heart out. And that's how I found the case. And I saw that doctor. We did the autopsy, and I said, wow, we should work on this case.

So I became friends with the grandparents, and so the insight that we have on this case is is a lot more than one would read in the local press or here in the television. In either Newfoundland or Pittsburgh, where the centers of the case were based, it changed

some laws and it made a difference. Again, what interests me are these parents, a grandparents, sisters, brothers of victims who had nothing to do with a criminal world before, and then they become victims themselves because their loved one is taken away, and then they become advocates for justice and they find a voice and help other people. I'm just so intrigued by that. And all of our cases have somebody there who's tilting at windmills to get justice.

nature of a case. And I said that, you know, I'm not particularly profound, but I said, I'd looked at somebody that knows this, gentleman, Well, this is a not a murder of an opportunistic nature, robbery, burglary, sex or something. This is a murder by someone that he knew and someone that had reason to dislike himmensely at that moment, and a bud. But they did a nice job in locating and get her. And as Donna said, and this one,

we really cannot tell you. But it's just to say that the ending of this is something that you would find hard to believe in a work of fiction to learn what ultimately happened with this woman and the new one child.

in the one part of his body. He fell down, hit his knees, and then she went over shot him to the back of the head and then kicked him. This this anger of this woman who was rejected by him.

year old John Yellinek. And he was married to this His first marriage was to this woman who was just you know, a knockout, a bombshell, a Jessica Rabbit type of woman that you could almost hear the Dunt Dunk the Dumb theme song when she walks in the room. I mean, she was just much more than he could handle. And turns out she had a secret pass that she

wasn't telling them about. And this case really is like that film, the one with Kathleen Turner body heat and William hurt where he ends up in jail and she goes off to her next sucker. But anyway, the victim was so horribly killed, and doctor Weck can talk about the nature of that crime. And then it took a long time to get the justice in this case, and it took a whole new way of looking at DNA evidence and just phenomenal. But doctor we talked about what was done to this victim, Well, what.

of a chance nature and stabbed and beaten. And then and when I went to the scene and reconstructed it with the criminalist and state police, he could see where he was attempting to flee from his attacker in the living room area where he was just comfortably ensconced for the evening, reading a paper and heading for the front door.

And this is the kind of a front door that has a glass on each side of the little glass panels and so on, and you could see where the attacker then brutally pushes doctor Yelnick's head through the glass panels without exaggeration, almost decapitating him. And the neck structures, the blood vessels, the trache, up the larynx, they were all severed right down to livert will callumn just a brutal, brutal killing. And that then leads into a point that

Donna said, it took a long time. It sure did take a long time, not because they didn't have it done good idea of who was involved. But let me let me give you the setting. This doctor Yelnik was getting a divorced from his wife. As a matter of fact, it was going to be finalized in twenty less than twenty four hours the next day, and the next day

was it was going to be officially finalized. His wife in the meantime had been his a strange wife and have been living with her new boyfriend who happened to be a state trooper. I can I can tell you who that the stage trooper is involved in this case. Within within twenty four hours or less, they had a damn good idea who probably was responsible for doctor Yelmick's death. The ones who are who are around their station and

in those barracks involved in this investigation. But in an event, finally they got around to the charging him, and I testified and went through all of the brutal injuries, and there was marvelous DNA testimony given by doctor Mark Perlin, who is a colleague of mind here. He's an MD, PhD and an outstanding DNA specialist, and he did some very very sophisticated DNA studies that were extremely important in

the case. And so all of this went in. The trial was handled quite well by a Deputy Attorney General. I was called in because of the you know, the affiliations of the different people that I've already alluded to. And the jury found him guilty of first degree murder. And by the way, and I'm sure Donna you know this, that the case was appealed and the Pennsylvania Pelic Court sustained the verdict and denied him a new trial, finding

no basis for a new trial. So, you know, spend the rest of his life in prison for this brutal, brutal murder, and you know it, it just leads you into a very sad puzzle. The feeling that I'm sure all of us as decent human beings think of, not that any kind of a crime is to be condoned, and not that anger and the seeding nature is to

be ignored. But you know, you can't help ask yourself, how how do people of sane mind and how, you know, how do they come to a point that they can't vent their anger, they can't deal with legal matters, they can take care of problems and so on in such a way as to not kill somebody yelling. And this cannot be overstated. As Donna mentioned, really was that you you could not find a person to say one bad word, just a hell of a nice guy, A hell of a nice guy.

life on that. Why he was not charged remains a great puzzle to which I do not have an answer.

think they're smarter than the system. They're going to gain the system, and it's usually greed or lust that you know, makes them do what they do.

go to Planet and Rule and download the book. But first you need a reader, so you either do it on your laptop or your computer or on a reader, and you can go. You can Google free Kindle k I n d L E download if you don't already have a Kindle or a book, which is the Barnes and Noble Kindlebean the Amazon download that for free. First I like to download it into my laptop so I can read the books on a bigger screen than you

get from the handheld device. But whatever, pat your vote and then you download the book Planet and Rule dot Com. It goes right into that reader and there you have it. And it's a tremendous mud and way to read books and take them with you. So if you're on a plane or you're at the beach, you can take your book with you and not have to worry about it getting wet, and it's a really brilliant way to read it.

So we're so happy to be part of Planet and Rule, and we thank Leslie and Debbie and Jake and Glenn, they're all geniuses. And Anne Rule, who wrote the forward for our book. I can't tell you how impressive of that is to us. We're just really happy to be a part of that world.

that is just phenomenal. And the second book is From Crime Scene to Courtroom and it covers seven cases Keithy Anthony, Michael Jackson, Drew Peterson, and Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones finally answering whether he was murdered or if it was just an accidental death. And three other cases that you may not recognize from the names, but they are, as we always say, twisty mysteries. But these things you'd have a hard time creating these kinds of scenarios if

you were a fiction writer. But you know, we're lucky. We have so many different cases to choose from, and so we go with the ones that will really make an audience like to turn the pages.

there's a lot of in the media now. Doctor Wect isn't on television shows all the time, so we'll be bringing it up to the minute and basically cleaning up all the lies that have happened over fifty years on this case. And you know, it's compelling. He has worked this case since shortly, you know, after it happened.