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Host, you are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufansky. Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in True crime History and the
authors that are written about them. Jimmy Jost was a powerhouse in the oil and gas industry, but he was a weakling when it came into his gorgeous, athletic longtime lover Ronda Glover. Addicted to her sexual prowess and madly in love, Jost gave her homes, cars, cash, and a three hundred and fifty thousand dollars engagement ring. Their fifteen years of passion and excess ended the day, Ronda drove directly from the shooting range to the Austin home they
once shared. After pumping ten bullets into him from a glock nine millimeter, she stood over Joe's body, splattered body blood splattered body and shot him six more times, twice below the waist. According to Ronda, Jost was violent, abusive, and had threatened her life. Here for the first time were Ronda Glover's shocking stories of drug crazed devil worship and sexual perversity. But in a packed courtroom, prosecutors presented shocking evidence that beautiful Ronda didn't act in self defense.
It was just hot blooded murder. Fatal Beauty with my special guests, the immeasurable and an infamous Burrel Bear off of Fatal Beauty, Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing again to be on this little we program. Burl Bear.
Well, it's a pleasure to be on your show. And having also having read your book and having had you on my show, you have the distinction of having been on perhaps the most horrifyingly disgusting radio broadcast I've ever been on my life.
Well, thank you very much.
Reeling from your book, which is just one of the most shocking books I've ever read in my life.
Oh my god, thank you very much. Coming from you, that's very high praise, So thank you, and coming from your vast experience, that's something too, to shock a person of your unshockable nature. So thank you very much. Now getting to this shockable story. This is quite a different book even for you, Burl. So I got to commend you on this for just being a very, very surprising book. And it's almost like you got your legal background here on this one. So it's impressible.
Well, you know, it's a difficult thing in the true crime field. There's all sorts of people who read true crime. Traditionally it's been a female driven market. More women have traditionally bought true crime books than men, right, And a large segment of people who read through crime books sadly don't really care about much except the blood and the gore.
What I was trained to do as a journalist, to what I think is important to do morally, is if all you do is talk about the blood and the gore and don't put it in any sort of context, it might as well be porno. And porno is entertaining, I'll admit, but you do need a little bit of a plot line. And so the only objections that well, I've had two objections to the book, one that it contains too much important information, yeah, and the other is the style I so as to write it, and I
did use a slightly different style on this. A lot of people watch shows like forty eight hours or sixteen minutes or twenty twenty whether that, or like documentaries where you have various people commenting on what's going on. So I thought it would kind of be fun to do a book that was like you were watching a documentary where you have all these people commenting on what's going on,
including Ron the Glover herself. If this is the first time I think that we've had a true crime book of this nature where the killer provides running commentary to help the entire book.
Yeah, definitely. I thought out of necessity you created this book as well because of its very unique nature, and then very much like a very important book where there never can be too much important information. This is so
thorough and so much. You're known for your subtext, that's for sure, but this one is very very necessary, and you can see it buildings as the book progresses after even the third of the book, and you can see that you're getting ah, You're seeing as what should be a historical time in law where a case like this in a very very conservative state like Texas at a very I guess crucial time, you know, because things have developed over the years, even in that state, and looking
at this and what is insanity and what you know, a really good examination of what it is not an emotional examination, and then you have just to throw in, you know. The complexity is having this woman, like you say, telling the story from her perspective, in and out of probably sanity so incredible.
One of the reviews of the book that I appreciated that I think it was perhaps it was on the True Crime book Reviews, said that the reviewer said that while they were reading the book the book, at first they thought perhaps some of the material I was putting in there was like filler or something. But then they realized by the time they got the end of the book that I didn't put anything in there that was filler. Everything in this book is there on purpose. It's not
just a fill up space. And if you want to skip over and stuff that you don't find interesting, go right ahead, but you'll miss what the book is really about. And there's some people, I admit, that really don't care about the social context of members. They just want to hear about how many wounds there were, you know, and that sort of thing. But the one thing I found especially fascinating about this story for those who I'm familiar with it, is that the real reason that Ronda Glover
killed Jimmy Joe's never came out at the trial. It never came out of the newspaper. They were never allowed to even mention it at the trial.
Yes, never was.
And the only place that you will find the full story on why she killed.
Him because in this book, yeah there is a why. Yeah, if there is any why, for sure. Well, okay, let's go back on this incredible story, because let's assume that some people don't know this story at all, and so let's go back to the rodeo star. The very beautiful Ronda Glover let.
Me she was and she I went and visited her in prison, which is a rather unnerving experience. But she's very pleasant, still attractive, better looking than she appears to be on the TV show Snapped, where she didn't look as good on that TV show as she did what I went to see her. She's still an attractive woman and as you can see from the photograph, she was
dropped dead. Gorgeous, incredibly attractive woman, very vivacious, personality. And my daughter once made a comment that if if someone's crazy in bed, probably crazy everywhere else too, And yeah, that might occur applied to her to Ronda as well. So let's go back, and it's absolutely beautiful and the bright woman, Ronda Glover, and you will have a very wealthy and nice guy named Jimmy Chose and he've been going with another woman named Ronda for about eight years.
When he meets this Ronda two, Ronda Glover, and he falls for her like the proverbial ton of bricks or several tons of bricks or several large bank ballasts. Once he experiences Ronda, he's hooked his best friend, who we talked to a great deal. In the book Rocky to borrow. As he points out about Jimmy, he and Jimmy had a lot of common Jimmy was incredibly wealthy, Rocky wasn't, but the two were best friends.
Either.
There was his vast difference in their income levels, but they shared a great commonality, and that is they were the kind of guys that when it came to women, they weren't in the conquest, they weren't the number of women, none of that nonsense. If they met a beautiful woman who was sexually incredible. They were toasts. That was it. Uh, they that woman could It wasn't that they could do no wrong, because I said, they could do all the
wrong they wanted. And it didn't pattern. Rondick could leave Jimmy and go off with somebody else for an extended period of time, brun out of money and call him and go Jimmy, Bam, he's right there. Yeah, I mean that that was it. And as as Rocky, he said, you know, I'm sure women can see him coming a mile away. Uh.
Uh.
They they had just become subservient to these these women. If the women are sexually incredible and they don't cheat on them, they're loyal to them and they'll do anything for him. And that's the way Jimmy was with with Ronda.
Uh.
Jimmy was kind of a passive sort of guy, pacifistic, you know, fun loving, and one of the characteristics is despite the fact that he had a lot of money, he was very egalitarian. He did not see social differences to people he did and he wasn't hoity toity, shall we say it, didn't see themselves better than anybody else. He could hang out with the yard guy or a king or a prince, didn't make any difference. He'd go to a restaurant, he might have fight the vallet after
dinner with him. You know, he could relate to anybody. Unfortunately, as time went on, Jimmy started joining Ronda in some of her more recreational drug experiences. The difference between the two is, while they both wound up having predictable amounts of delusions, et cetera, being an over indulgence, particularly distribulance, will cause you know, very forms of temporary coosis. If you also have mental illness, those psychoses aren't temporary. There
in line is the big difference. Uh, Ronda had ongoing psychosis. Jimmy could get wacko and have delusions, but then uh he'd stop. You know, he could do you know, I would like they say, ninety five percent of the people who drink will never be alcoholics. Ninety five percent of people who use recreational drugs will ever readrug addicts. Most people who will use any kind of drug, maybe they'll use it two years and get bored and they'll stop.
Most people in treatment or in treatment because they'll have got mad Adam and said him there, not the community to be there.
Uh.
She went off several times to metal institutions, treatment centers, et cetera. Multiple diagnoses of treatable metal illnesses. But unfortunately Ronda, as with many people, chose not to take her medications and you to drake and use recreational drugs on top of her unfortunate mental condition. To put those two together and you've got real problems.
What was she diagnosed with and what exactly and when was this? I mean, we're talking about a relationship that spent fifteen years between these two, So let's go back to the beginning. Did she have a history of mental illness when she was a teenager? And then when she diagnosed a little bit later, what was the diagnosis?
What she was when she was a young young adult, she was well, she was already into self medicating and recreational drug use in high school cetera, which is not unusual. But in the early nineties, et cetera, she already was having problems with alcoholism and stimula stimular use cocada, cetera, which is not uncommon. But she had feenured that she had a diagnosed metal illness, which the diagnosis has changed somebody.
She was diagnosed bipolar disorder, and then later she was diagnosed with what's called psychosis NOS, which means psychosis not otherwise specified, meaning they could not keep her long enough to do an appropriate diagnosis. They could tell she knows, you have to have someone under appropriate care or examination long enough to determine, you know, it's like if you were vomiting, vomiting, but we don't know exactly why we
haven't been able to nail it down well. In most states, you can't involuntarily keep someone in a mental institution over say, seventy two hours, unless they are either suicidal or homicidal threat to themselves or others. Well as she was neither. Even though her mother did a lot of efforts to try to get her help, and then so did her other friends, they couldn't keep her beyond a certain amount of times. She was in Betty Ford's for her Alcoholismhen
she was out of there. And she can present herself very well. I mean, she's not continually wackled ninety nine percent of time. When I went to all jumping him. When I went to see her, it was very charming, very gracious, amusing, and yet I knew that if there were probably certain phrases I could say or topics I could bring up, it would trigger And sure enough, there were certain things I could say, and exactly as predicted by various experts, the eyes would blaze and she'd be
right back per separating on her delusions. But you can snap her out of that also by changing the topic, so it's you know, it's something that a professional would have to deal with. Sadly, she came to believe some very extreme and dangerous delusions. They're wound up costing word for his life.
Now, okay, tell us before you tell us the delusions, tell us basically what some of her well, before you talk about the delusions involving Jimmy Joyce, tell us just in general, some of the delusions she had that seemed to have been or some of the characteristics that manifested herself in her mental illness. You know, what was it these grandiose thoughts. Tell us a little bit about her character and the kinds of things she'd be hallucinating or being deluded about.
Well in the early times when they were living together in Austin, early on, before before they split up, Before she lifts he s Houston and before there was any real perceived danger from her, she would call the police several times a week, thinking they were burglaries in process in her hall, or if there were bodies buried in the backyard, or that the bodies in the wall, or
that Jimmy had had killed people. But they asked her whis and while she was reading a true crime book and she saw pictures of one of the suspects and he kind of looked like like, yeah, turned one time he'd taken their son to the movies, but she thought he killed him and buried him and you know, put him in the attic turn another with the movies. But every time they'd ask Jimmy, you're are you okay? Are you worried about this? And Jimmy would always say, Hey,
it's okay, She'll be fine in a little bit. I can always calm her down. I'm not in any danger from her. And no matter what, he would always say, hey, I'm not concerned. She would never hurt me. I'm in no danger from her.
And they would have a designation that the police or emergency workers do. Was it the EDP or something some.
Yeah, yeah, they would They would always note on their ed p which means a mostly disturbed person, and they would ask is she had danger to herself or an others and Jim, we would say no, she wouldn't hurt herself, she wouldn't really hurt anybody else, and she calmed down in a bit, and usually she would, uh you know it, It would just kind of go in these fits and starts, and uh, you know it was he was willing to
put up with all sorts of stuff. And then he got kind of almost as as wacky as Shoe was for a while because they were they were both drinking and using together and they both got delusional and things got pretty bad, and the Child Protected Services TEP CANON and wanted to give custody to the child to the.
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Details to the grandmother to Ronda's mother, because the Ronda was wacko and Jimmy seem pretty wacko too, And Ronda made a deal with her mom that hey, she cleaned up, and you know, the mom would keep an eye on her. So Ronda moved back down. She was sending Jimmy didn't have any cuts to West whoever, they never actually were legally married, and uh, but Ronda kind of flipped out again and took off with the kid. And that was the problem. Ronda and her child were missing for an
extended period of time. No one knew where they were. Uh, and that was a problem.
Ron She's supposed to when she's supposed to hand the child over to protection services anyway, because because she had her restrictions or something about the condition she had she had broken it was wasn't that the well, yeah, she.
Had she had, she broke into condition. She was supposed to turn the child over to her over to her mother. Instead, she took off and actually she tried to get across to Canada, across the Canadian border, but the tabs on her car. It was the new car that Jimmy had bought her, and it just had the paper license and that isn't good enough for leaving the country or getting into Canada. So they turned her back around and said she was on her way home. Well, she didn't come
home and they didn't know where she was. In fact, when Jimmy's body was found, it was Ronda's aunt who had gone to Jimmy's house looking for Rondo. Why was she look by Rondo?
Why was she talking there?
Because Ronda and Jimmy was still close. Maybe Jimmy knew where she was. Maybe Jimmy had her from her, you know.
Right, So this is the July twenty fifth, two thousand and four, and so who finally, so the her friend finds the uh the body, or she doesn't actually.
Tell me about it. The the aunt, you know, looking for Ronda, and the child decides to, you know, go buy Jimmy's house and the garage is opened, the cars there. She rings the bell, rings the bell, there's no answer. Comes back the next day, there's still no answer. She's a little concerned that, you know, maybe something bad has happened. Calls the police. The police go in and that's when they find Jimmy quite dead upstairs in the hallway with
several bullets in him. And he's been dead for a couple of days, right, and now they don't know what's happened. They don't know if if Ronda is in danger, if the kids in danger. You no one knows for sure exactly what's going on now. Rocking the borrow Jimmy's best friend. Now he hasn't seen Jimmy in a couple of years. They had a little bit of a falling out over Ronda,
actually over something that happened. And then all of a sudden, the Clear Blue Rocky gets a beautiful two thousand dollars gifts from Jimmy planting for his garden, and he calls Jimmy. He said, man, this is great to hear from you. Let me take you out. The two guys who've been best friends, who hadn't seen each other for years, So spent the afternoon together bumming around the farmer's market or whatever, having a wonderful time, just like the good old days.
And let me buy you dinner. So Simmy says, well, okay, Because they're like in their shorts and T shirts and stuff. It was a hot Texas day. So take me by the house, let me shower, change my clothes. You do the same, and give me a call when you're reading, come pick me up and we'll go out for dinner.
Right.
So Rocky goes home, shower, shaves, gets off the phone. No answer, no answer, no answer. That's because Jimmy's dead. Ye, finally he gets I get to eat. What the hell is going on, Jimmy, pull on me here? Finally gets a call, you know, like a y or so later for the cops and the Savarrow. Jimmy Joseph is dead. We've found his cell phone. There's about like fifteen calls, and you're experienced to be here. The last person saw him alive, Rocky says, hell, no, I'm not the last
person who saw him alive. Wherever children was the last person who saw him alive. He was just you know, he was, you know, really upset. He still lived. He was the best friend. And they would calm down tomorrow, you know, calm down, come down with you know, we
need to talk to you. Well too, they didn't need to talk to him, after all, They their investigation quickly figured out that that Ronda Glover had been in town, had gone through the shooting range there in Austin, just got too far from the house and got directly from the firing range to the house and had Sean Jimmy quite dead.
Yeah, how many there was? How many shots just for the audience? How many guns you? Well?
Thirteen? I think that the math is a little wrong on the back of the book. I think she said this thirteen times altogether. Of course, she's basically the pet refers to the story. You want to go with, I'll go with mine. She's upstairs in the upstairs bedroom, waiting for him. He comes in, comes up the stairs, she's walking down the hall, torture. He gets to the bedroom door, she's waiting for him. She shoots him four times bam bam, ban bam, right there as he comes to the entryway
of the bedroom. And then she follows. As he's stumbling backwards down the hall. She keeps firing so six of it had six more times whatever, that poor math. And then he's already dead on the floor. She stands over him and shoots him twice more below the waist, twice across, and then leaves I believe, and whatever bring on the book is it? She was expecting her and the child. He thought all three of them were going to go
off to Canada together to start for new life. She tells the story that she went there believing he was out of town to get something out of the attic or a camping trip, and then he came home and surprised her, but she had a gun on her and he tried to strangle her, so she took out the gun. And it just didn't make any sense.
Her story wasn't her version as well that originally she believed that she went into the home because she had called him or knew that he wasn't there. So, yeah, she called him and he was in Colorado, and then he comes home, and then years he come home and he's just sit here and wait for him to believe, well, if he lived there, he could be there a week.
I didn't make any sense. And even she rehearsed the exact scenario of how she shot him with the guy because he's, well, what if I'm in the upstairs bedroom and the guy is coming down the hall. I mean, she rehearsed this headed down to a science, And as I mentioned that they weren't able to bring out at the trial why she did it the real underlying reason if which was and your audience will just be drop shout when they hear it. So brace yourself, well, tell me a little bit her love.
Tell us sorry, tell our audience really what the so for a lot of people to delay it for rest because you've really done a good job of succinctly being able to explain this once and for all what is the law, especially in Texas. But it's a good idea. It gives you. You have given the thorough overview of what exactly is the insanity definition, what does it mean to be insane? And the hearing itself.
This is very very important. A lot of people have the mistaken idea that anyone can just claimed the insanity events as although probably freedom in sanity, No, you hardly ever see it. Insanity defense is uses less than two percent of the time, and in any case, and it's almost one hundred percent of the time, is by mutual agreement of the prosecution and the defense. Insanity is not a medical term. It's a legal term, and the term
varies depending on where you live. Now, if you're in Canada, I have no idea what the terminology is up there in the United States of America. It varies from state to state. You have in Texas as you have in Calibhich. California was called the McNaughton rule, which goes as follows. If you know it's against the law to kill somebody, you're not insane. So it doesn't matter how crazy you are. If you know it's against the law, you're not insane.
Well that's insane. Sure. For example, we have a fellow on death. While he's been on death Ordier in California forever, it probably will be killed ten people in one day because he was nuts and he believed that there was going to be a giant earthquake in California, and the only way to save millions of lives is if there were ten people who were going to psychically communicate with him, were willing to give their lives to save the lives
of millions. What he was supposed to do was get in his car, drive around town until one by one those ten people psychically communicated with him, at which time he would sacrifice their life, which he did. He killed ten people at about ninety minutes, and they arrested him and he goes, but it worked. But look, we didn't have the earthquake, did we. Yeah, augous, that is completely
out of his mind. But if you ask the question, is it against the law to kill people, well, of course it is, But look how many lives we saved. They were in on this with me. He was volume because he's crazy, But it doesn't make any difference. Andre Thomas in Texas ate his eyeball in the court room. When it was found, Gelly ripped out the other eyeball and ain't that one too? Said, Yeah, he's nuts, but by the law, he's not insane because he knows it's
against the law to kill somebody. Most people who kill people when they're not doing it in an act of passion because they're mad at him, right, It's usually because they think they're responding to a higher power that God told them to The Lord told me to kill this person, you know I'm about you know, they think they're responding to a divine higher calling, which is in Ronda's case, she thought she was doing God's will by killing Satan, you know, and uh, they think they're you know, they
believe they're doing the right thing. Even though it maybe against man's law, they're operating on a higher level. Well, too bad. Under the mcnonden rule, if you simply have knowledge of that it's not right to shoot people, then you're not insane. It varies in you know, the states, the law is different, but in Texas, California and several others, it doesn't matter how mentally deranged you are. If you know you're not supposed to kill people, you're not insane.
So you couldn't even bring up for problems.
Now you do before you get to the trial, you do bring up the famous authors, many of them had him on my program. And you talk about Fred Wilson, you talk Caitlin Rother, you talk with Oh, well, tell us about a few people that you do talk to and and what did What's the question you posed to them about this subject? While we're on this subject, What is their take on it? Because I thought that I thought it was very useful.
Well, I thought it would be a fun thing to do, is to ask other true crime authors who deal with this sort of stuff what they think. Should the jury be allowed to know whether or not the person on trial for murders nuts, you know, should they be allowed to know that right, And some of them said I don't care, and others said, uh yeah, I want all the information I could get. How can I make an
informed decision if information is withheld for me? If this person has been in and out of mental institutions, at the his bodies in the wall and things, God's talking to her, Demons are talking to her, the dog's talking to her. I want to know about it. However, the Texas laws know that jury could not be told. They weren't allowed to know about that until it got to the sentencing phase. Then there could only be, you know, very oblique references to the fact that she'd had a
history of Bentley hillness. And the reason I wanted to talk to other true crime authors is not really because I like them and they're fun to talk to, but because of the wide differences of opinion. He managed one thing, Stephen Longside something else. Caitlin Rossia felt differently, and it's it's a controversial topic, especially controversial for the person whose life was taken in with the one whose life is
a state. There is a real disconnect. I don't know about in your country, but see America, there is a real disconnect between what science knows and what people believe on all matter of topics. Oh, sure, there is common knowledge and then there's fact. And if you try to disrupt people's frequency ideas were facts, sometimes they don't want to hear it. I'll just give you a real common one. Have you ever heard that that crack cocaine is instantly addicting?
Sure?
The truth is most people who try it don't like it. The majority of people who do like it and use it quit using it any time between two months and two years. Ninety five percent of people who use it never become addicted. It has the same addiction ratio as just about anything else, which is ninety five percent of people use it never become addicted. And yet that certainly makes for nice headlines, doesn't it. You ever heard of crack babies or meth babies after the same as tobacco babies.
By the way, the only drug don't do really caused massive damage to infance his alcohol. We have the alcohol syndrome. All this information is available to anyone who wants to do scientific or medical research. But if you want to read scary headlines or there's no exploitation press, you can get all sorts of misinformation that unfortunately translates into repressive and recording laws that put innocent people or you know, semi innocent people behind bars or subject to all sorts
of mistreatment and prejudice. And it's scary, it's very very scary. I'm you know, I come from that school of journalism, and I literally mean school. I went to the University of City Journalism and I had was fairly impressed on me the importance of journalistic ethics. And now in an age when anyone with a keyboard a blog it calls themselves a journalist. And you have radio shows where you have filed by talk show and indictment by sound bite, and people talking on radio and TV shows on who's
guilty with no one's even been charged. I don't know how people can get a fair file.
Yeah, and it's it's very it's very interesting too. They're just feeding you know, we don't even have to mention any names, but you know, you know, but anyway, Hillbilly Central there on on TV where you know, I mean, it's it's incredible, it's like, it's it's the very it's the most simplistic, minded, emotional person got on the air. This person just Strokes, those kinds of people, and the whole show is like that. You see books now, it's amazing.
Kensington will not publish a book that doesn't have the case finished, well not. Other publishers will also, and there's a book out and.
Even then even in the case here is that now Caitlin Roffe, who I admired greatly intact, her book Poison Love is being re released to and about the case of San Diego. Now that's a real wild one. There were two books on that case and the person was found guilty and then turns out the prosecutor framed him. Why so they could be heroes and a true crime book.
Well, yeah, yeah, crazy story. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
It's a scary thing. Michael agrees back. I don't know if you've had him on your show.
Yeah, I just had him on last week. Actually was great. His book was amazing.
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Book.
Yeah, great book, great guy. And he was talking about he was watching one of those TV shows where they were talking about the case he was doing, and you were talking about buckets and blood. He's what buckets of blood?
There?
Talking about things that don't exist.
Yeah, well, well that's yeah, that's journalism. The state of it. It's not too accurate. There's no one to check on it.
Well, at least the Canadian government had a good sense to you still got that lot there where it's against the law to tell a lion call it news. In America, Uh, we all went to the courts on that on uh you know we have this network down here at Fox News. Yeah, went and Fort and they said, yes, they admitted that they make stuff up, but they said this protected under a First amendment of free speech. We can lie and
call it news because there's free speech. And they want on that basis, which is a mixed blessing.
He is.
I'm a big fan of free speech, but for some but I think that Canada's got the right idea where you can't call it news if it's not true.
Yeah, but you know, the thing is that to solve to actually wind its way through court, we take about fifteen years. You Actually, most people will have passed away by that time. Here, I think gets done very quickly here, and then it's appealed and then pondered upon, and then an inquiry about the outcome and then So don't hold your breath on that. You know, it's if you're not too satisfied how it works there, be prepared to be
not so satisfied here. You know, we haven't even got into and we'll wait till the very end, but we haven't gotten into the comparison. I will give you a case here that the psychiatrists have assured the victim's mother that this guy should be manageable in the community in five years. And you won't believe the difference. Again, we
fallow the McNaughton rule. And we've had an evolution, certainly in this kind of defense, and certainly insanity defense doesn't work very often but we've made some advances that you would be concerned with. It's sort of the opposite. We just have sort of a fuller opposite from your system. It's very interesting.
Well, it's very strange. You know. I'm working on a book right now that I'm actually writing for somebody else, a ghost books shure, we say, not a supernatural, but I'm running, you know, for some and two hundred years ago, if you want to have someone involuntarily committed, all you had to do was get above fee people to say, oh, they should be put away, and if they object to say I shouldn't be put away, that's considered proof they
should be put away. Sure, well, they've made that far more difficult to do that, of course people with petally illness. But they've made it real easy to do that with people who you can say are drug addicts or alcoholics. I could say, you know, Dan zapants Key should be put away because uh, he's a Repels, was a drug addicts, an alcoholic, and I fet people will say so, and they'll say Dan, are you and you say no, Well, that's the fact that you say no is taking a
proof that you are, and therefore you're could be put away. Yeah, many states who have that. Now, it's very scary, very scary.
Now with this getting back to Ronda Glover, there is a very very important person in this trial here and we may be jumping ahead, but this is something that happened a while back before this, uh, this the murder itself, and this is Patricia Swinson And what did she what did she tell police? And what did what did Ronda know about her? And she apparently called her and what did they talk about all that conversation about who's.
Patriciuswincident and Ronda were good friends on and off for many, many years. And Ronda and Patricia had gone out one night and Ronda had had told Patricia her big plans for Jimmy, that she was going to seduce him and then cut his venus off and burn the house down.
Why oh, because because of the same reason she basically killed him because he was Satan, because he was in league with the devil, and he and George W. Bush were having homosexual sex with clones and conducting papers, paked sacrifices in the cave under her house and chopping up little children and serving them in barbecue restaurants. No usual reasons. Yeah, and so Patty, well, there was a fire up there in the area of Jimmy's house, and Patty thought, my god,
she really done this and turned out that wasn't it. Well, went went, Ronda finally did kill Jimmy, and Patty was going to testify that. It's one of the things the prosecution was going on is that she'd had this in
mind for a long time. She'd been planning this. Well, the fact that Patricia could say, well, yeah, we have this conversation at such and such a restaurant way back in June of whatever where she was priding to kill him, right, So, well, Ronda found out about this and called her on the phone and said, you don't remember that conversation because you were drunk that night. We were at such and such a restaurant and I said I was going to kill him. She didn't remember before.
She does now Yeah, she just acknowledged it. Yeah, pretty saddy.
Yeah, well, uh it was, you know, it was. The whole thing is so sad. I mean, it is so sad. It is sad for Jimmy because he's dead and all of his friends and family. It's sad for their child. They have a son, for Heaven's sake, he's about sixteen, seventeen years old. And I heard from him and he says, you know, no one knows what it was like, you know except me. Can you know? Some people portray her as a gold digger though she was and she could
have she could have, you know, file child surprise. She was kidded about ten grand a month of Jimmy anyway, had she told me when I was busy and she said, My son says, Mom, why don't you just admit you're crazy? And she says, because I'm not, you know, And I didn't realize she still had these same delusions. Bless her unfortunate heart.
Yeah, because you had to because it did have the benefit of having her not doing See, here's the thing that I think we got to explain too, because this is part of the law as well. If you have a certified mental illness, that'd be one thing and would
help at least the penalty phase. But if you're not taking a medication, plus you are doing you're not going applying with that order, and plus you're doing illicited drugs on top of that, you really are not going to qualify for any kind of reduction order any credit at all.
And yet the use of illicit drugs by people with mental illness is symptomatic. Suretic, I mean you know that, it's like that's one of the characteristics. Sure, It's like, you know, it's like arresting a drug addict for having drugs. I mean you know it's well done. Yeah, you know, it's like, you know, arresting an alcoholic for drinking. I mean, what do you expect arresting simple with you know, indigestion
for having an upstistemic. Uh, it's they go together and so but of coursely under the law, if if you have a mental illness and you've also been drinking or drugging, then the gates getting compassion. Well, the use of drugs and alcohol by people with illnesses far more common because tend to be used as a form of self medication.
So yes, dealing with what's real is so difficult for people. Yeah, it's like, well, how we think things should be or how other people should behave compared to what's real life. The disconnect is so great, it's tragic. But anyway, I almost lost track or whatever the question was.
But what she had a competency hearing so she was declared not competent at first.
This is so bizarre. This is so bizarre. You explain this one to me. They okay, well, she was arrested, it was the tribut she was not under the influence. So then he drugs or alcohol whatsoever. She was Cleaton Solbridge, who was also out of her mind. Right, Right, she goes to the metal hospital after she's arrested because she's blatantly nuts. They have for and they have a competency hearing, and she's found not competent to stand trial because she
is delusional, completely delusional. But she's delusional when arrested. She's not under the influence of any drugs that will give her temporary psychosis. It's fairly reasonable to assume she was delusional, as she pulled the trigger thirteen times the day before. Right, she's not competent to stand trial. They sent her off to the Midmistitution. She gets a new lawyer, They give her some drugs to calm her down. And then this is what they do. They say, it's dangerous for you
to mention the delusions. Can you not mention them if your lawyer tells you not to? By that, and she told me because she said I was told it was dangerous. Girl, It's dangerous for you too. She was worried that I would be hurt. Yeah, if I mentioned them. When they told her it's dangerous, she thought she meant that someone might come into the courtroom and kill her or bump her off if she mentioned these things. So she agrees to not manifest the symptom of her incompetence by agreeing
to not look incompetent. She's declared competent. She was no more competent to stand trial when she used to a trial, and the days just sound incompetent. The only difference was she agreed to hide her incompetence.
Now we'll get to that. The thing is I wanted to mention as well, is that because that there's a lot of this information about previous mental illness diagnosis, and of course you know, mounds of evidence to support that she has this particular odd behavior with a police contact beforehand, her lawyer has to go with self defense. It's not an insanity defense for the audience. It self defense.
Absolutely no choice. The lawyer couldn't say, listen, my client's been nuts for years. She has this ongoing delusion that Jimmy Jose to George W. Busher having homosexual sex of the cave under her house with clones, and or sacrificing children and putting them in barbiesho sauce, and she thought she was killing Satan and put her in a mental institution for the rest of her life. He couldn't do that, He couldn't even mention it. So instead he had to
say a self defense, which was easily disproven. And she is in prison and receiving absolutely no mental health care whatsoever.
Now, before we get to that, she made quite an appearance at the trial itself. She took the stand, and people don't know that's quite a fairly rare occurrence. How did she conduct the shelf happen? Yeah?
No, I think the reason, the reason her lawyer had her do that is he kept trying to get the door open legally to address these other issues. Sure, and she's such a loose canon and she was still incompetent no matter what the court said that if he could put her on the stand, kind of like that movie with you know, Richard Year and Edward Norton. You know, he put the guy onunderstands that people can see his nuts.
I think that was the technique. I think if he figured that she would say things and do things, they would cause legal doors to open. That they could bring out the fact that she had been diagnosed mentally hill for years.
Yeah, and they could say they never they never planned it, they never planned it.
It happened. Yeah. But offortunately didn't work.
You know, she did how did she how did she conduct herself at say, at the beginning of the testimony, and how long did it last? O?
Well, she got up there and she tried to say she was going to faint, and this end of the table and it had the other thing, and she cries and weeps and moans, and she talks about how much she feared Jimmy, and you know how she she had to protect herself and he grabbed her by the throat. But then under cross examination, when the prosecution goes to talk to her fam, her demeanor changed so fast, all of a sudden, she was the other Rohnda. She was cold as ice and snappy, and you know yeah, I
mean they saw the change. The jurius saw the change, but it didn't work in her favor. It didn't come up like, oh, there's something wrong with this woman. It's more like, what was this nonsense of her crying a few minutes ago and she's cold as her ice?
Now, yeah, yeah, I thought it particularly amusing too. She said, I'm going to go into a state of shock, kind of like she was stalling. It seemed like to me, just following the dialogue, that she was stalling for time a little bit, and they didn't have to press her. Okay, answer the question, I'm gonna faint.
I know how she was going to answer. I mean, no matter how much your attorney mayor rehearsed her, well, he had his own problems dealing with her, you know, because all you have to do is say cave or bubble gum or almost sexual or you know, and bam, she's off. She's off and running. You know, she's right back there that there's a child sacrifices in the cave, and you know she's gone.
What I want to add, what I wanted to ask you, and I know, is the audience doesn't know that. The of course, the refrain from the prosecution is that we they don't have to prove motive. But isn't it a It isn't a capital case like this and in a serious murder case. Isn't the absence of motive? Isn't that something that the lawyer that the lawyer was quite good in here at least you depict him as being pretty capable,
and he felt very hard for his client. But isn't that I mean, I even though it's it's they don't have to prove it. Isn't the lack of any reasonable motive kind of proof that.
Well, they were able to show self defense at least that she that she supposedly that he was, that she had things against him. The brushes tried to say that she killed him because she was tired of it, which he doesn't make any sense. But it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is she pulled the trigger thirteen times, and an unharmed and innocent man who posed no threat to her whatsoever, she killed him. He posed no threat.
He loved her, he loved their child. He thought they were going away together, little halfway over afrit Canada, and said she killed him. And that was my personal face. She shouldn't be able walk the street if she's mad at me today. I don't want her to have a blockdown melometer and coming after me. Yes, she's pretty Yes, she's charming, and I'm glad she's somewhere where she's safe and she's not hurting anybody. I think it would be in her best Now. I don't know what the medal
institutions are like. Whether it's better to be in prison it better to be in a medal institution depends on which way you are and what they're like. I do know she told me that my book has caused us some problems in the prison and if people read the book. Uh, and you know, she kept telling me that she's never been medalial, she's never had a meddle of diagnosis. And of course that's not true, but that's what she keeps saying and believing. And they thought in prison she was
just fine. Well, of course, doctor reading this book they made I think would be in her best interest to have some metal health examination, that some mental health treatment. I'm not a doctor, but I think would be in her best interests.
Yeah. Where you know, there's a big controversy here, and I won't go into it here, but just for a frame of reference, Uh, what do you think should happen to a person like Rhonda? You clearly, at least it seems that you're siding with that she's clearly should fit the definition of insane and it should certainly be treated in a mental institution. But in this country it's a little bit different because we're letting everybody out, like I
mean seriously, and especially insane people. Seem at least a psychiatrist here believe that with medication and with time that certainly almost anybody, and I mean anybody can be released. Now, what do you think personally in terms of release, in terms of if they did rehabilitate her mentally, but then she stand trial again and pay for it, or.
What is your idea that would that would that would be ridiculous, That would be ridiculous. That's like when they give people medication to make them competent enough to be executed. Yeah, I felt that that. Yeah, again, there's all sorts of mean.
Like a very good friend of mine in Walla, Walla, Washington, doctor Steve Rubys were the leading experts on sexual offenders, especially teen sexual offenders, and as he points out by that, you know, if it's a former sexual offender, you know in six situational sex offenders, especially the situational child molestios, are not pedophiles, they respond incredibly well to therapy. Most of them never ever do it again, cont once have treatment,
and are exemplar resistance the rest of their lives. The biggest danger they face upon being released and trying to get into society as people hounding them, berating them and soulding them and putting them under so much stress they frack, which is entirely different than pedophiles, entirely diffident situational child molester. But the situational sex offender responds well to therapy and usually if they're lucky enough to get it, they're not
going to cause a problem. Where you have a problem is where you have a defender and all you do is lock them up for a year in a county jail and then let them out and you don't give them any help. I mean, this comes to this whole weird disconnect between what people believe and what's true. If I'm mentally ill, I'm going to behave in appropriately. If your treat be and if I get medication, and if I take my let's fight for prosecution. Said they're on
the Glover case. There are millions of people who are bipolar and have various forms of psychosis who get up in the morning, they take their pill and they're fine all day long. And that's a fact she chose not to take her medication.
But it's can the same be said? But can be the same be said for those people that go over the line, just like you make the distinction in your book? I found it very interesting again in a new one for me, how clear it was put in your book. There's a sociopath, which may be your boss's real prick, but then there's a psychopath, the worst of that word of that sociopathic designation. So what are you saying here
in terms of this person can be treated? But is there there's a huge difference between the very harmless schizophrenic and the person that commits this kind of murder? Is there not a distinction? And what do you do with this person? You treat them? But can you ever let can you ever let rona Glover out say she was responding?
Now, that would be something if he is highly individualized. It's been suggested that people says as Ron the Glover would be because they committed murder and very hot blood or murder in that case would perhaps be saidence to
life in uh in a metal metal care facility. Right, just as if they committed its sane they would spend their life if found guilty of murder in a prison, that she would spend or because whatever the sentence was, that they would spend the equivalent sentence in a metal hospital, which is going to make it worship better than being in a prison. You know, the idea is to protect people.
You know, people think in terms of prison in terms of punishment and revenge, which impunitive model, which is the punitive model has always been found to be the least effective way of affecting any change in anybody. If you punish people for lying, you know what happens, they lie more. If you reward people for telling the truth, they become moronest. So we have this whole ass backwards saying of punishing people in the change, which doesn't work. You put people
in prison to protect us from the predator people. If you're going to put them, you hopefully are going to do something that will reduce recidivism them coming back to prison. Except the problem there is and believe me, I worked in prison recidivism as it Timothy Leary years and years ago, where he worked on a program that reduced the odds
of someone coming back to prison. And he goes and he talks to the wardens, says, we have this program that seems to be working very well on reducing recidivism. And the wardens says, let me show you something. He shows them the plans to the new prison, which is larger, it employs more people. He says, listen, the prison industry is based on repeat business. We don't want these people not coming back. We want these people coming back.
Well, I think you're talking about kind of too slightly two different things, because I know what you're speaking of, that the prison industry is filled up with a bunch of dummies that were never represented at trial. It's not like whole bunch of mobsters and the most hardcore criminals were caught and then put in prison and then those streets are safe for a while. Well, no, it's it's a bunch of dummies are in there once.
You know that.
Not so much dumbers, but they're they're they're costing us they can get, they're costing us more money than they can steal in a year. They're not even ambitious, you know, but.
They most of it's victim was crimes, drug crimes, young people arrested for drugs minorities. Yeah, I interviewed the guy from the FBI former the FBI who brought crack cocaine into South central LA. One of the reasons danously continued having a prisoner class to arrest.
Yeah, that was a plan.
People don't want to hear it. But you know, hey, what's real? What's real?
Well, you know, the thing is really I don't want to get onto this too much, but just for comparison, we have a guy. You probably heard about this, and I can't see how you didn't. But anyway, this guy was an Asian guy named Vincent Lee and l I and this guy got on a Greyhound bus outside of Winnipeg. Okay, Yeah, so the bus beheading in cannibalism all.
What he real I read him? Yeah, And when he got medicated and realized what he'd done, he begged to die.
Yeah. Yeah. The thing is, though, that's that's interesting, And certainly he was a clear cutcase of being insane and he was found not criminally responsible as what they call it here I guess, which was called insane before. Now
the thing is, he's in it. He's in a mental institution that has no fenses and within two years he has now been the They have a plan for him to go out for escorted walks with in a community where there's homes across the street, where there's no fences, and these people escorting him have no no guns.
Uh.
They that was after that.
Threat. Does he pose threat whatsoever?
The thing is is that he is of course less delusional from the medication. But what I'm saying is that they've already said, and I don't know how they conclude to this, but this is the kind of mentality we have here. You may find it welcoming. I'm not sure, but they've said to the parent of the victim that this guy will be likely out in about five years on medication. So that's where we're at in terms of this evolution of the idea that Okay, he's not criminally responsible,
but then now we can fix them. And I say, I want to see this medication.
You know, you know, it's very very possible we get it to say, oh no, that that that can't be. So that can't be so uh, and it can be, so it can't be. I'm surprised the guy has killed himself because he wanted to what he realized, what if you woke up and realized you've done that? Wow, what would you do? I mean, you could live with yourself.
The guy could live with himself either. I mean, he's probably both hard and desire for they said, to tell us to kill himself, you know, my god, living with having done that.
But he still might be in a state of he still might be in a state of delusion. But just you know, who knows.
I mean, it was just like the doctor, his doctors would know.
Well, the thing is, I just find it awfully interesting that a doctor can conclude, you know, with any kind of certainty that this guy can be out in a short period of time without I mean the thing is, people say, well, what if they don't take the medication? And I just say, what kind of medication do you have? Because I'm just not quite sure everybody can treat. There are some kinds of medication where they give them a shot and the shot lasts ninety.
Days to six months, betting off time. But I was just waiting to In fact, I think I mentioned in the book the fellow who escapes from the mesastitution. Did he really oppose in danger? Well no, not actually in terms of like killing anybody because he was He just wanted to get the hell out. But in terms of that kind of behavior, oh, I've I've got friends of schizophetics. People have always afraid of schizophetics. Rese gistopheties are harmless.
These people watch any movies. I think if it's a shot, because the man remember to take a pill every day, he gets a shot, the shot last tiney days, six months. Uh, you know he's fine. Uh, you know, there's a Just because we don't know doesn't mean someone else doesn't know. You know, just because we're not an expert auto mechanics doesn't mean there's someone that doesn't know how to fix
a Lamborghini. Just because we don't know about cancer treatment doesn't mean there's someone who doesn't there's someone who doesn't know about treating Uh, you know, different kinds of illnesses. Uh. Projectile vomiting is also upsetting because people who know how to treat it.
Well, you know that's the thing. But you do have all the emotion of the police and in the media, and as nothing worse.
There's nothing worse than the combination of ignorance and emotion, and so you figure you could combine my ignorance of the top with my emotion on a topic, and I'm going to be a babbling idiot. So don't pay the attention to what I say. But if we bring in someone who knows what they're talking about, who's are recognized, who's very knowledgeable, and they say something, and if my emotions are high enough, I'm not I'm going to ignore what an expertcise anyway.
Oh yeah, well.
That's always that's always a thing. Well, how you know, that's what the logical fallacies. The absence of information is a proof of the of whatever the absence of information is. You know, Well, the fact that we don't know proves such and such. Now it doesn't it will see how do we know? Well, asked not tell? You know? Excuse me? Why is this person who is a former uh child molester released to a halfway house and you ask your thing?
Because they were a situational molester. They had nothing to do with section, nothing to do with oldren, had to do with a stress response. They've had complete therapy. I've taken my professional reputation on the fact that if you leave them alone, they'll never do it again.
Well, I guess I know you've always.
Been twenty years of my life. As you know, it's like going to you as a journalist, it's like, how do you know what comma goes? There is spoddy pants.
And I'm sure too, I'm sure too, you did. You weren't born with this open mind. You went through this evolution like all of us do, when facts are staring you right in the face and you got to you got to throw in. As a journalist, you've got to be that kind of journalist. And I know, especially as an author, that's the kind of that's why you've won the Edgar Edward Edgar Award because you and especially his evidence.
By this book, you've got the details and you're giving the facts and you're trying to present the case that certainly this woman, if there is anyone, that fits the definition of insanity, And that's why she.
Killed definitions right, because insanity is a legal trim, not a meta cool one. Yeah, And this is why people can spend hours talking about this book if they don't think it's filler. Now there's actually on Amazon someone said what a can't What did they say? A horribly terribly written, boring book. So the office is are things that have nothing to do with the case. Well, that person probably isn't going to enjoy any of my books.
Or any books maybe, or any book.
Matter with a word over two syllables. Well, but what I am happy about is that people whose opinions I do count as important, such as other true crime writers or journalists, like like my work. And I think Gary C. King had a great comedy he said, the only review that really matters is the one from your editor and publisher when they say, will you write more books for us?
Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah. And you know, the thing is too, it's just, you know, obviously there's a certain type of person that reads true crime, and I think the occasionally when they get these bad reviews, because you know yourself, for the vast majority of time, people don't really communicate with you. For the amount of books you've sold, they don't really personally communicate with you. But you keep selling your books, you know, and you get a call
from the editor. So the thing is, that's what I find is people I sell books all the time and I don't I get a very few comments from people. But the thing is, the vast majority of people are getting an education and the true crime market is underestimated how smart and slavvy these people are. How what we're taking.
Out that is what we're seeing now for the first time is men. And and we've always had a true crime prepared to women and white collar educated women reading. Now for the first time, men are reading true crime, which is fascinating as a whole other segment of the market. And and as you know, because you write it, you you know about it. It is not an easy thing to write. It's emotionally demanding, it can really play on your nerves, and you have to do a lot of research,
and it's not easy stuff to write. But I'm of the feeling that if you can lift the victims life to a level of sacrifice, and if people can learn from these books, lives can be saved. And it generates discussion, as we've certainly done. But the case of Fatal Beauty, which by the way, folks, is available in both paperback and ebook, it stimulates discussion, and discussion is always healthy.
Yeah, and it's great too. The true crime audience is a very appreciative. I think of the information that you'll be able to provide. Some books really don't necessitate going through too much of a legal drama because the parts of the story that they have either access to or more interesting are somewhat outside. You know, when this particular case you've got a really good examination, you show other cases.
I found it, you know, I mean an amazing amount of I love it, like a historical aspect of it where you're talking about it. In Texas in nineteen seventy four you could get the death penalty for rape and break and enter life without parole. So very interesting how the time has changed a little bit.
Well, you know, it all depends on if people like that sort of stuff, if they're like a sense of perspective historically, socially and culturally, the like by books. If they don't, they won't like this one. They probably won't like some of the others. And if they don't like this when I say, well that you probably might like murdering the family. But you know, the murder in Alaska was an entirely different sort of thing or body count, which we talked about serial killer. But this is a
book that does cry out for context. It does cry out for what does this mean? What does this tell us about ourselves, our history and how we face these things? And that's the way I approached it.
Yeah, no, it's been a great yarn Fatal Beauty for those people listening. Edgar Reward winning uh Burrough bear and make sure you check out True Crime Uncensored on Saturday afternoons on Outloud Radio, the premiere true crime interview program, the best offer. You've been on it and I've been on it, so that's it's been. It was a blast too. It was the greatest interview I've done, so it's it was a It was a blast.
He really was a disgusting story. It is. Folks by his book, you'll be shocked.
I guarantee you. Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you very much Burle for coming back on the program. I wish you all the best of luck with Fatal Beauty. But I'm sure it's going to be another bestseller because it's a great book and a thrill ride of a read. So the program.
For me, I'll quote you on that.
I'll quote me on that. Oh yeah for sure. Anyway, thanks very much, Burrow, have yourself a great evening. My pleasure than thank you even listening to program. True Murder the most shocking killers in true crime history, and the authors have written about them and with my special guest Burrelbaar with his book Fatal Beauty. The rodeo stars the doctress Killer Fatal Beauty with Burlbaar, have a good evening, good night,