EXPOSED:THE ZODIAC REVEALED-Mark Hewitt

the phone calls, and the police response. In profile, he demonstrated the psychology of serial killers and gave an evidence based criminal profile of the Zodiac himself. Yet even these present an incomplete picture of the case. Inexposed. Doctor Hewett fills in the gaps in the timeline, explains how and why the Zodiac originated and when where he disappeared to and reveals the identity of one of the most enigmatic

and feared serial killers in American history. On September twenty seventh, twenty eighteen, Exposed the Zodiac Revealed, the final installment of the Zodiac serial Killer series, brings to light the truth about the Zodiac. In it, hewittt presents definitive evidence of the killer's identity and names him directly. This incontrovertible work of investigation will confirm the suspicions of many Zodiac investigators

and change the public's understanding of the case forever. The book they were featuring this evening is Exposed the Zodiac Revealed The Zodiac serial Killer, Book three with my special guest, journalist and author and historian, doctor Mark Hewitt. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Doctor Mark Hewitt.

tact a good idea. So I wrote him and said that I was very interested in the industrial industrialization problem that I was concerned about, the problems of industrialization in today's society and where it was leading us, and how we were dependent upon technology and whatnot, basically spewing back to him a lot of his words of the Unibomber Manifesto, and uickly he quickly wrote me back.

At the time, I was working on my doctorate for business administration, which I completed two years ago, and Ted started asking me questions about businesses administration as far as

how to lead groups of people. He wanted to me to direct him to a couple of books that he could learn about how to manage people and manage an organization and his As he explained it to me, it became quite clear that he was interested in gathering together a group of people who are concerned about the technology problem, and he wanted to lead them, or at least give good instructions to other people to be able to lead them.

I was researching the Zodiac. He sent me a very short, terse, angry letter, and I like to call it my exorcist letter, because there's a lot of anger that came through in his In the letter. I could see it even in the pressure of his pen as he was pressing down on the paper. That it was an awful lot heavier

and bolder than the previous letters I'd received. It was confrontational, or at least the best that he could do as far as confrontation, And between that attitude and the tone of that letter and some of the phrases of all the other letters, it gave me the sense that, you know, this might be the person who's responsible for the Zodiac letters. The final letter he sent to me. He actually did

write out the word zodiac. He put it in quotes, and I compared that word that he wrote to me he printed, because Ted Kazinski prints all of his letters. He printed that letter and I printed that word, and I compared it to the word zodiac and all of the zodiac letters, and I showed these, I line these all up in I think it's that the afterward of exposed and show that there's a strong similarity between the handwriting of Ted Kaczynski and the zodiac.

in this case, a serial killer's psychological development. But there are some great things indicating some very very interesting things. Tell us about what you found about Ted's upbringing, and then especially some of the dramatic things like when he was very very young and his hospitalization now okay.

he have this need to kill other people? And why did he kill other people? Some of the research has taken us back to Ted's childhood. When he was about nine months of age, he was rushed to the hospital because he had hives over much of his body, and at that time he was taken away from his parents.

Parents were only able to visit him for short visits every other day, and his mother tells a very heart wrenching story of him crying his eyes out when he's being taken away from her and treated at the hospital. Quite likely, at that time he was put in restraints to his hands and legs were restrained to prevent him from scratching these hives, and he was covered in antiseptic and who knows what all else was done to him.

But a lot of people look at that experience in his life and suggest that that early experience caused him to have a lack of trust in other people. His mother described his demeanor when he returned home as being listless, and he wouldn't nuzzle with her and was very cold, and it seemed like the bond was not there any longer. But there's a lot of different interpretations of that experience, because Ted himself said, well, look at my mom's journal.

A week later, he was back to normal. And I think his mother even noted in her journal that a week later he was back to his normal self and was eagerly enthusiastic with other people. And that probably wasn't as big as a deal as his mother was trying to make out later on. And one of the suggestions that Ted made is that the reason that she was saying that at that time was to prevent him from being put to death and getting the death penalty for being the unibomber.

expected one of two outcomes. I expected to, at least in my own mind, convince myself that Arthur Lee Allen was responsible, even if I couldn't prove it, even if I didn't have fingerprints or DNA evidence, I would by studying the letters, by studying the crime scenes, and studying the life of Arthur Lee Allen, I would come to know that, yes, Indeed, everything that's been said pre was correct, and yes he is the Zodiac serial killer. The police

just never had enough evidence to convict him. The other possibility that I thought was that it would be somebody that nobody's ever heard of, and that by studying the letters, I'd get an idea of this person's personality and their state of mind, their purposes behind what they were doing, and kind of who this person was. You know, you don't write twenty letters without saying an awful lot about yourself.

So I assumed that I could dig down to the bottom of it and figure out what this person was about what who this person was on an emotional level, on a personal level, even if I didn't know exactly who it was. Well, surprisingly, as I went through my research, both of these were incorrect. It wasn't Arthur Lee Allen, and it was quite quickly apparent to me that Arthur Lee Allen wasn't responsible for the crimes, and it wasn't

somebody that we'd never heard of before. Arthur Lee Allen, I think, was a good suspect back in the sixties and seventies, because the police had no other better suspect. He was it. They couldn't eliminate him as easily as they were able to eliminate other people, and Alan seemed to throw the police all kinds of tidbits that implicated him as being the Zodiac. He told other people, Hey, I'm being investigated for being the Zodiac, or I mean

investigated because I am the Zodiac. When he ended up going to prison for child molestation, he told people he was going to prison because he was the Zodiac. Well, that kind of attitude. The one thing he did have in common with the Zodiac was that he liked needling

the police. I think that was pretty common back in the sixties and seventies that people like to people like to denigrate police officers and get on their bad side and give them hard time, and look at the police forces being the enemies of society, the enemies of freedom. So in a lot of ways, the personality of Arsleuthiland was similar to that of the Zodiac. But the thing that clinched it for me, apart from DNA and fingerprints and handwriting, all the things that the police tried to

implicate him, his personality is all wrong. As I got to know the Zodiac through the Zodiac letters, I came to see him as cautious and quiet and cerebrals, whereas Arthur Lee Allen was brash and loud and boisterous. The Zodiac worked very hard to get attention and came up with various schemes to get attention from society, from police, from newspapers, to get his letters printed. And the sense that I got from the Zodiac letters is that this is a man who didn't get a lot of attention

and was quite comfortable fitting into this. That the background of any scene, he would be in a room and nobody would notice him. He would be quiet, he would be very unremarkable. Well, Arthur Lee Allen was just the opposite. He'd walk into a room and he'd be loud, and he'd be dramatic, and he'd draw attention to himself one way or the other. But he carried around knives and

displayed knives to other people. He was threatening, he was He was quite a large man from what I understand, and very intimidating, so everybody noticed him when he was in a room. People knew he was there. Well, that's completely unlike the personality that I got to know of being the Zodiac, who was who worked very hard to get attention and was very creative in ways he got attention, because obviously in his own life he probably did not get a whole lot of attention.

How did you first undertake this comparative methodology that you were going to try to see in what way there was commonalities and similarities to establish that they were one and the same person.

was different evidence that pointed different directions. I just included it all and let the readers make their own mind up. The way I've come to understand Hunted was that was my effort to break the case down into little pieces. Profile my second book of the trilogy, which came out about a year ago, was my attempt to analyze those pieces.

Once I've broken the case down, I put together a profile of who I thought the Zodiac should be based on FBI principles and FBI research into the whole area of serial killers in exposed my third book, which comes out tomorrow. It may be available by the end of this broadcast on Amazon. That was my attempt to put the case back together again, put all the pieces back

together in a cohesive hole that made sense. And for me, there was only one way to do that, and that is to understand as Ted Kazinsky is being responsible for the attacks of the Zodiac serial killer. I tell a story in such a way that inexposed you can't really understand the Zodiac without equating it with Ted Kazinski. There's so many pieces of evidence within the case that don't make a lot of sense or leave a lot of questions unanswered. When you identified Ted Kazinsky as being the Zodiac.

Suddenly it all makes sense. I was asked a couple of weeks ago, what was my first indication or when did I have that Eureka moment that I knew it was Ted Kazinsky. Well, there was never any big moment. It was the process of eleven years of research. Little by little, it kind of came out in retrosp I can look back and say that I realized that there are a lot of minor questions of the case that

had to be answered. Everybody wants to know who is the Zodiac, but there are a lot of smaller questions I was not able to answer and hunted or profiled questions such as where did the Zodiac get his name from? Why do we call him the Zodiac? Every other serial killer when they have a moniker given to them by the press or by themselves, we know what it means. We know Jack the Ripper, or the East Side Rapist, or the Son of Sam. We know where these names

came from and what it meant. The Zodiac is alone in having a name as a serial killer, and nobody knows precisely where it came from. Some questions like that little by little began to be answered in Ted Kazinski. Another example is the phrase collecting slaves for the afterlife. People have looked at that for fifty years now and said, what does that mean? Where does it come from? It's

obviously a euphemism for killing people, but why use those words? Well, that phrase takes on meeting when we understand that Ted Kozinski wrote it. Each of those words and phrases is very significant for Ted's philosophy of life and his wording of his Unibomber manifesto.

wasn't speaking, he was writing. And the known instances where the Zodiac actually talked to people, the two telephone calls he made into police departments, or when he spent any time I'm with his victims, He never as far as we know, used the word zodiac and said I'm the zodiac or this is the zodiac speaking, when he actually was speaking. Now, he only wrote it, and it had such an impact on the community after the more material letter that he used it in virtually every succeeding letter

after that. He began with the word name, this is the zodiac speaking. Well, what it means is if you remove the words this is the zodiac speaking, you shuffle those letters around, you get a near exact anagram of Theodore Kazinski, PhD. And I was not the first one to notice that. I had read it in other places, and I was actually quite stunned to read that, because if that's the case, that answers the question of where the name comes from, all of these different views, all

of these different ideas are completely wrong. Here's a guy who's anagramming his name and putting it in the letter. Well, if that's the case, I wanted to take a second look at all of the letters and look for other

embedded information. And it turns out that in a number of letters he anagrammed his name or some some version of his name, so that his name appears in virtually every letter that he wrote, So, if you are a serial killer and you're fascinated with the name Theodor Kazinski, and you play around with it and you try to come up with different wording, different combinations, it's interesting what you can come with. Come up with mask the sound of your cruising, I am not sick, I am insane.

Search the park properly. Instead. You look at some of these phrases, and they are near anagrams of Theodor Kazinski. In the way in which they are placed in the letter, it's kind of telling that this is a guy who was fascinated with his name, was playing with his name, and was taunting the police not only by sending letters, but by embedding his name in virtually every one of his letters. And that even goes back to earlier letters

the Baits letters that are only eight words long. People have questioned why a killer would send a letter that's only eight words long. He sent it in three copies to three different destinations. What was the point of that, And those eight words didn't provide any new information or

any clarity on the case. What's the point. Well, if he looked very closely in one of the letters, you see very clearly Theodore dh Odre and vertically you can make out I am I apostrophe m so in this letter he was taunting the police by saying I'm Theodore, but you don't even know my name is in the letter.

and one in high school. So he ended up being accepted at Harvard at sixteen years of age, one of the youngest entrants into Harvard University. He got his master's and PhD in mathematics following that at the University of Michigan, and became one of Berkeley, California's youngest professors when he began to teach in the mathematics department in nineteen sixty seven. So here's a guy who was phenomenally intelligent, but at the same time he had a lot of behavioral problems.

He had a very difficult time relating to other people, partly, I think because of his IQ, but there's also an indication that he suffered a certain amount of he was

on the spectrum of autism. He has been noted by some people to have Asperger's syndrome, which is a very mild form of autism, and part of that is being unable to read the cues of other people, the nonverbal cues that all people use to talk with each other, so that when somebody's being sarcastic with Ted, he has a very difficult time understanding that because he takes the words very literally. Why are you saying these nasty things about me, No, I'm just joking. It's just I'm just

kidding with you. Oh oh, I understand. So he has a very difficult time relating. And if somebody is bothered by him and they have a surprised expression on their face or an angered expression on their face, he can't read that. All he can do is listen to the words of other people and try to make sense of what it is that they're trying to say and where it is that they're coming from. So on an emotional level, he's completely out of touch with other people. When he

was in elementary school, he had some behavioral problems. He was causing difficulties in the classroom, and that's when he was tested for his IQ, and that that's when they decided, well, maybe he isn't being challenged in us to let move him ahead in school. What the result of that was is a very intelligent person who was even further alienated from his class because she's a year younger than all

of his classmates. And then by the end of high school, he's two years younger than the people in the same class, and emotionally he was even younger than that.

his four years of undergraduate studies. There's a lot of unanswered questions about the study because while there was a congression congressional investigation into it back in the nineteen seventies, and it appears that people were being subjected to unreasonable expectations and demands in this and other projects related to the mk Ultra program, and it appears that mk Ultra in part funded this investigation that Ted Kazinski was part of. One of the reasons that he was involved in this

research is because he's an alienated student. Murray wanted to study outcasts, the outsiders, people who did not fit in socially, and of the twenty two participants, Ted was identified as the most outcast, the most socially isolated, and mentally disturbed at some level, of all of the twenty two people. Once he was arrested as the Unibomber. People began to research into what was going on back then, and I did this participant? Did this have something to do with

Ted Kazinski becoming the unibomber becoming a serial killer? And so there are still questions outstanding in that.

a court appointed psychologist. When in nineteen ninety seven and nineteen ninety eight, Ted was talking about representing himself, firing his lawyers, and acting as his own lawyer, the court appointed a psychologist to study him to gain an understanding of his mental health and whether he was fit to

be his own lawyer. So all he had reason to cooperate with the court, and at that time he indicated to doctor Sally Johnson that he indeed, in nineteen sixty six, had a mental and emotional breakdown and that affected him and put him on a course for becoming a unibomber. His word, this is what he told us. Well, that was in nineteen sixty six, but he didn't place his first bomb until twelve years later in nineteen seventy eight.

Questions are what was he doing for those twelve years of why didn't he turn to murder at a much earlier age. At the same time, when Ted Kazinski was arrested for being the Unibomber in nineteen ninety six, investigators were quite surprised at his age because virtually every profile of the unibomber prior to Kazinski's arrest said that in nineteen ninety five nineteen ninety six, the unibomber would be

approximately forty years of age. That was a pretty easy calculation to make because serial killers start their work almost invariably between the ages of eighteen and twenty five. So you add eighteen to twenty five years on to the beginning of the unibomb crime spree, which is in nineteen seventy eight, investigators are looking for somebody approximately forty years of age. In nineteen ninety six, when Ted Kozinski was arrested,

he was fifty three. Well, why the age discrepancy and why did the Unibomber start killing in nineteen seventy eight when he was approaching forty years of age himself already? That's unusual, That's notably strange among serial killers. At the

same time, in nineteen seventy four, the Zodiac disappeared. The Zodiac began killing in nineteen sixty six, and in nineteen sixty nine converted to becoming a letter writer instead of a killer as far as we know, and then sent the last of his authenticated letters in nineteen seventy four. Where did the Zodiac go?

Berkeley in their math department. I was not able to find out precisely where else Ted Kaczynski may have interviewed in California, but he may have been down in Riverside as well. Nineteen sixty six we see the murder of Cherry Jobates. We see the confession letter. A month later, in nineteen sixty seven, Ted was in California to begin his career as a professor. It's nineteen sixty seven in April.

That's when we see the Bates letters that were sent to Riverside Overside Police Department and the father of Baits. Ted was a professor from sixty seven to sixty nine. During those two years, there were no telephone calls, no letters, and there was a single murder, that of the Lake Herman Road murder December twenty, nineteen sixty eight, that occurred during Ted Kazky's Christmas break from being a professor. It was kind of surprising that the zodiac referred to December

twenty as being last Christmas. Who talks about December twenty is being Christmas, other than somebody who has a extended Christmas break where Christmas would also encompass December twenty. Ted's last day of being professor at UC Berkeley was June the thirtieth, nineteen sixty nine. Four days later, we have the murder at Blue Rock Springs. The attack on Sarin

and Mijaux. Following Ted's time as a professor. After his last day of being a professor, there are two years in his life for which he cannot be very well accounted for. He gave his parents address in Lombard, Illinois as his home address, but he didn't spend all of this time there. Questions are still around today what was

he doing during those two years? Well, during those two lost years of Ted Kazinski, we have the murder at Blue Rock Springs, the three part letters of the four to eight cipher, the murder at Lake Barriessa, the more material letter, the murder of Stein, the Stein Letter, the all of the letters that took place over those next two years, which were the bulk of the Zodiac letters.

The final letter during that two year period was the letter to the La Times, which was the last time that the Zodiac used the phrase this is the Zodiac speaking, and the last time the Zodiac used the crosschair symbol to identify himself. That was I believe it was March nineteen seventy one. Why is that signific again, because in a couple of months June of nineteen seventy one, Ted Gazunski moves to Montana and begins to build his cabin

and lived in Montana that few months. Once once Ted moved to Montana, never again did the Zodiac write a letter that had the phrase this is the Zodiac speaking, or ever write a letter again that used the crosshair symbol.

the letters became more and more bizarre. Time the La Times letter was sent in nineteen seventy one, he wasn't even writing to the Bay area papers anymore because they weren't giving him the press coverage that he'd been receiving earlier. They started to ignore him. They decided to not print his letters to see what would happen, and sure enough,

it bothered him very much. The letters weren't being printed, so he sent the letter down to Los Angeles and even complained in that letter about not getting front page coverage that he had previously been getting in the Bay Area. So it seems that the crime spree of the Zodiac kind of ran its course. The Zodiac apparently didn't commit suicide, and apparently did get arrested on other crimes. He just stopped being the Zodiac because he wasn't getting what he wanted,

which was that attention. I contend and I make the case in exposed that as the Zodiac ted, Kazinski was attempting to in dramatic fashion, as a type of performance art, the dangers of industrialization, where in the manifesto he says industrialization has been a disaster for humankind. As the Zodiac, he was attempting to act this out by showing that he playing the part of industrialization, was taking people's lives, was collecting slaves for the afterlife, was bringing great damage

and great harm to society. He hoped somehow that people would make that connection and realized that he was trying to make a point. He worked very hard in his letters to try to give the idea that what he was doing was supposed to be understood as lighthearted and funny and something with a double meaning. His use of the word doubles, his attack on couples, his use of cards that had kind of corny puns to them, all gave the idea that he was trying to communicate to

people that he was speaking trying to send a double message. Finally, when the entire spree was misunderstood, and how could it be understood any differently, people understood it for what it was, which was sheer horror, incredible carnage, destruction of people's lives, the destruction of families, something that apparently ted Kazinski didn't understand the emotional impact that that would have, so that his message would not be received. Finally, in the Exorcist letter,

he uses the phrase satirical comedy. He uses it in talk talking about the movie The Exorcists. But I believe what he was trying to say was, look, people, what I'm doing is supposed to be understood as satire. What I'm doing is supposed to be understood as comedic. But by that time, you know, people did not understand it

as such. So he pulled back, reviewed what he was doing and what went wrong and decided as well, if I'm going to do this over again, once I'm in Montana, once I'm far away from the Bay Area, once I'm completely separated from this crime spree, I need to start another crimes communicate to people in a much more scholarly fashion, and that's the genesis of the un Obamber manifesto. But I should say that all of this is a complete russe on the part of the Zodiac, because that wasn't

his reason for killing. And the same with the unibomber. He said that he killed to alert people to the dangers of industrialization. Well that's laughably not true. Just because you have a strong message doesn't mean that you have reason to go out and kill people to get your message heard. In fact, Ted Kaczynski placed bombs and sent bombs for seventeen years before saying a word about being

concerned about the industrialization problem. John Douglas, the FBI profiler, said that when the Zodiac went when the Unibomber went quiet between nineteen eighty seven and nineteen ninety three, he retreated because his composite picture had been created and circulated and really scared him. But not only would he spend time in proving the quality of his bombs, he would also spend time in his justification for what he was doing.

And so it was at the end of that time that he came out and said, well, yeah, by the way, this is why I'm doing it. It's because I'm concerned about the industrialization problem. True truth is Ted Kazinski killed people because he liked killing people. He enjoyed doing that. In the words of the Zodiac, I like killing people because it's so much fun. Those words could be written exactly by Ted Kazinski as well, because that was his real reason for killing.

attempts to depict him as such. Adamantly, part of the reason you cite as him morphing into the unibomber was that he thought that people regarded again misunderstood what his intentions were and his justifications were, but also that they might regard him as as insane, and that was something that he really did not want to have as a sort of a notion from people, wasn't it.

the stuff that implicated him. And the motive behind that is because he did not want to be seen as crazy. He wanted people to believe that the reason he killed was because of his philosophical position and his concern for the world. Is concerned for other people, And if you read the manifesto very carefully, you realize that he's trying to convince people of his ways, but he's being very manipulative about it. He's telling about how he's concerned about

the environment. Well, he wasn't really concerned about the environment. In the manifesto, he makes it very clear that he talks about the environment only when he talks about how to convince other people of his position. So he is throwing in popular ideas such as environmentalism and freedom to convince other people that he's one of them and that they can join his movement or whatever, because it's a reasonable belief system. But the truth is Ted Consinky never

gave a care about the environment whatsoever. When he was living in Montana. He polluted probate public lands, he polluted private lands, he abused his neighbors, he was involved in hunting out of season. He did not care about the environment whatsoever. He was quite a narcissist. So any idea that he's being honest about that, it's just completely unreasonable.

doing an injustice if we're convicting somebody without DNA. But I would point out that before nineteen eighty six, we put lots of people in prison, and we used a lot of different forensic techniques without having DNA, so that you know, DNA is not the only way to identify somebody. What I offer and exposed is a literary DNA or the DNA of words, using that as an tool to identify Ted Kazinski. Everybody who uses words uses them differently.

Now I'm not talking about handwriting, but just the words that we use, how we select words, how we put them together, how we use grammatical rules. You know, if you found a note in my place, you'd be able to tell pretty quickly whether I had written it or whether my son had written it based on the words that we even if we typed it. And Ted's literary

use of words come through in the Zodiac letters. But with this understanding that there was an awful lot of staging taking place with the Zodiac letters, the Zodiac didn't want to be identified as the person he was behind, and he was attempting to conceal his identity. At that time, Ted Kaczinski's handwriting and words and ideas were known to a few people in California, and so he had to be very careful to disguise his handwriting and disguise his ideas.

Which and that didn't that wasn't true. Twenty five years later, when he was hidden in Montana and a few people knew or remembered him, he felt that he was free to use his own wording and his own ideas and speak that very clearly. But as the Zodiac, he had reason to conceal him l One of Ted Kazinski's favorite childhood books was The Secret Agent by Joseph Conrad. He

loved that book. He in his own words, told people that he had read it at least a dozen times, and at one period when he was I believe in his twenties, he wrote to his parents and its family members who were having a very difficult time trying to

understand him and what he was doing. He counseled them to read The Secret Agent and take special note of the character the Professor, because if they read that book and they understood the character of the Professor in Joseph Conrad The Secret Agent, then somehow they would be able

to understand him and understand his odd life choices. While I took a very close look at the story the novel The Secret Agent and found an incredible wealth of literary evidence that the person who read that book, the person who knew that book forward and backwards, was also the person who wrote the Zodiac Letters. And I include dozens and dozens of vocabulary words, some of them not very not very trivial, that occur both in The Secret

Agent and The Zodiac Letters. But the similarities are far beyond just the vocabulary, different phrases, grammatical structures, uses of punctuation, a lot of There's a lot of similarity between The Secret Agent and the Zodiac Letters. And I believe that at some point it will be understood, it will rise to the level of a forensic match, not just oh, look,

here are some similarities. The absolute breadth and depths of the similarities show that the person who wrote the Zodiac Letters was very familiar with the book The Secret Agent.

very broad answer. I wish I had time to put together an answer to that question, but I think in the number of chapters of Exposed, I point out that there are extreme similarities, many many similarities between the Zodiac's crime spree, the Zodiacs and the later of the Unibomber, such things as writing letters to the press, demanding publication, threatening with bombs, demanding to be printed or else, or else, the commission of murder, those type of things in a

lot of ways, Ted Kaczynski is the Unibomber repeated a lot of what had worked with the Zodiac. Yeah, I would like to be able to enumerate them, because there are literally dozens. The way that the unibomb attacks were carried out, the letter, a letter that was sent to a previous victim, a lot of different ways he repeated what he had done as the zodiac.

shows that these two people are the same people. Maybe you can just discuss signature because I think people talk about that and an MO quite a bit, and you do address that.

all carried out by one person. And I also noted in my book that Paul Bernardo up in Canada was the Scarborough rapist before he moved to a location a couple of hours away and became a serial killer. So that people can and do have multiple careers as serial killers. It's not unheard of, and it's it's it's not I wouldn't say it's common, but it does happen, and so it's understandable that Ted Kaczinski did the work of the

Zodiac until he realized it wasn't working anymore. He wasn't getting what he once got and he had to do something different. So that an mo the way the procedures that people put into place to accomplish something can change from not only attack to attack, but from crime spree to crime spree, giving the indication that it's two different people.

But what's the same from crime to crime As a criminal signature, the criminal signature is what an individual does to what he does, what he brings to the crime spree himself, what he does to get from the crime what it is that he's trying to get. So the criminal may try different aspects, even try different careers as different serial killers or different crimes brees, but what they're trying to get out of the crimes remains the same.

So with Paul Bernardo, he was attempting to control and he was attempting to take care of sexual needs by first raping women and then a couple of years later by raping and then killing them in the same way.

The Zodiac appears to have taken a step back after nearly being caught, after Paul Stein converting to becoming a letter writer for several years until that petered out because he wasn't killing people anymore as far as anybody knew, and then retooled to become the Unibommer to once again carry out activities to give him what he was looking for, and that was control over other people and a way to express his anger and frustration through killing people.

The three things that I point out and exposed are disguises. You know what disguises did the unibomber used. Well, he used a hood and he used sunglasses, precisely what the Zodiac used Atlake Berry Yessa. So that when the cabin was inventoried, we find the same type of disguises, even if we didn't find the actual hood and the actual sunglasses used by the Zodiac. We find the same type of disguises. Secondly, we find guns and knives. Guns and

knives are precisely what we're used by the Zodiac. We also found in the cabin codes coded material, disguises, weapons and codes. Those three are precisely what we would expect to find if we were to look at the Zodiac, if we were to inventory the Zodiac's living situation. Well, compare that to every other serial killer who has been caught and whose residence has been explored and searched, such as Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy, or any other

serial killer that you can think of. None of these had the same type of material that we would expect from the Zodiac. None of these others John Wayne Gacy didn't have hoods or sunglasses, he didn't have knives and guns, he didn't have codes. In fact, I don't know if any other serial killer who was arrested, ever found, ever showed evidence of having codes in his home. Well, Ted Kazinski had all of the same type of things that

we would expect from the Zodiac. In addition to that, I had access to the library of Ted Kazinski's that was removed from the cabin when he was arrested and his cabin was inventoried, approximately two hundred and forty books were taken out of that cabin. I have had opportunities to look at those books and have found that in the margins, Ted Kazinski wrote a number of sentences or

editorials or whatever what scholars called marginalia. Ted Kazinski's marginalia gives evidence that it was written by the Zodiac serial killer.

out by the FBI. It cost them approximately seventy million dollars to eventually find him, and that sum was only superseded by the search for Bin Laden after the attacks at nine to eleven. But seventy million dollars to find this person and his DNA has never been collected. Part of the reason is because back then it wasn't mandatory. Once it became mandatory, I guess they felt like he's been in prison and he'll never get out, so why bother. But I think his DNA needs to be collected, and

I sure hope that Zodiac DNA is eventually found. It may or may not be. I don't know. You know, fifty years is a long time. Every few years material gets collected. There was a lot of excitement in the Zodiac community back in April when the Golden State killed was arrested because the news came out that VALEO had sent in letters and envelopes to once again look for DNA and they said it may not be until June

that we find the results from from these tests. And online there was an awful lot of excitement thinking that the Zodiac could be identified just as Joseph Dangelo was. But we had heard no news since then that DNA has been found or that we're still waiting for news, So it may be that DNA is not available at this time.

I find this other chapter over here more convincing. We need to put this chapter first. And then my publicist got a chance to read and edit the book and she said, no, no, this other chapter, this needs to be perfers. This is the most compelling evidence. So we underdid this and negotiations as to well, what's most compelling,

and it appears at different people, like different chapters. In the end, I said, oh, I don't care, as long as all of these chapters are there, and my editor proceeded to cut and paste my words beyond all recognition. And when I first took a look at it, I said, no, we can't. We can't put it like this. This doesn't

make logical sense. This isn't the order that I presented to you in But the more I looked at it, the more I thought, you know what, that does make a lot of compelling sense the way he did it, And it's kind of an unusual structure. Sure, I've kind of come to understand. I don't know if you caught this, but the book appears to have like four introductions, yeah, more forwards where we over the evidence and we tell

quite clearly exactly where we're going to go. So that by the time we start looking at the case, you know exactly where we're going to go and exactly how we're going to get there. And it's kind of a cool structure. And I have to applaud my publisher for coming up with the structure, because I never would have thought of it, and when I first looked at it, I thought it was a really bad idea. But I'm

quite impressed with it. But anyways, the afterward that I thought was kind of a way to tie up the book at the end he put first, or he put much earlier, and that's pointing out the spectrum of how the Zodiac morphed into the Unibomber, and how the Unibomber's

early days are explained in the Zodiac. I said earlier in this interview that what happened to the Zodiac after seventy four and what was Ted Kazunski doing during those twelve years between when he decided he could become a serial killer, when he decided that he could kill anybody who wanted to kill, but then waited until nineteen seventy eight to become the Unibomber. What was he doing in

that chapter? I say, well, if the Zodiac didn't die and he decided to change and become something different because the Zodiac didn't work out for him, what could we expect from him? And one of the things, as you just mentioned, was he could be expected to again reach out and make his message and make his target area

even larger. Because the Zodiac started in the North Bay, then he moved into San Francisco, and toward the end of his career, his last letter that said Zodiac in it was sent down to Los Angeles, so he was expanding his area. We could expect that if the Zodiac continued to kill and continue to be a serial killer in one to continue that under a different name, he would expand beyond California, he would go national and eventually make contact with the New York Times, which is precisely

what the Unibomber did. And I also said that, well, if how did the unibomber, how did Ted Kazinski go from being a math professor to being a serial killer who sent bombs to the mail? Which is kind of a weird transition. An intermediate transition might look an awful lot like the Zodiac serial killer, somebody who killed with knives and guns, somebody who had a very local area who began in the environment environment of Berkeley, California, and

expand it outward to eventually become the Unibomber. So it was kind of an interesting way of looking at it. And after looking at it that way, it's hard to understand the Zodiac apart from the Unibomber, and it's hard to understand the Unibomber apart from the Zodiac serial Killer. So I make the claim in that chapter that those two campaigns are inexorbed, are intertwined with one another.

same person as Ted Kaczynski. Once the manifesto was released, the FBI wanted as many people to look at it as possible to see if anybody recognized the wording, the phrasing, the ideas, And so they made copies of it and sent it to ten thousand scholars across the country, and none of these scholars, university professors, students, nobody came back and said, you know, this reminds me of so and so I'll led the dead ends. So the FBI, to their wisdom, said we need to accept the unibomber's demands

and publish this for the public. There's a lot of controversy about that. Why would you give into the demands of a terrorist he wants his words in print? They agreed to do it. They encouraged the State Department to go ahead with those plans for the simple reason that the more eyes on it, the more chances it would be for him him to be caught. And sure enough, Ted Kaczinski's sister in law, Linda Patrick, who had never met Ted but had read a number of his letters,

letters that he had sent to his brother. Ted, has one sibling, his younger brother, David Kazinski, who's seven and a half years younger than Ted. Linda Patrick was in Paris at the time and She found the Unibomber manifesto online and looked at it. Had no idea that it had anything to do with her brother in law. But as she read through it, she said to herself, Gee, some of these ideas look awfully familiar. I've read this stuff before. And so she alerted her husband and said,

you know, you need to take a look at this. Well. David was very resistant to it because he couldn't believe that his brother was the Unibomber, because he didn't know of any violence in his brother's life. In fact, one of the arguments that David going on too was he can't be the unibomber. He's too old. The unibomber is about forty according to all profiles. My brother's fifty three.

It couldn't be him. He's too old to be the Unibomber. Anyways, with a lot of encouragement from his wife, David eventually began to realize that, you know what, there are some similarities. They went and contacted lawyers who contacted the FBI, and negotiations began. David is a huge hero here because he willingly turned his brother in which he had no reason to do that. He had no obligation to do that.

His brother faced the death penalty for his crimes. But David was put in the uncomfortable position of, well, if I don't do anything, other people could be killed by bomb sent to the mail. But if I do do something, Ted could end up committing side, he could end up with the death penalty. So he didn't have an easy outlet here. But he did the right thing, I believe, and he turned his brother in and the rest of history.

was very impressed with himself and with his creations. And that's that's understood because you know, bomb makers tend to be very meticulous. People tend to be very detail oriented. And interestingly, John Douglas, in describing the Zodiac said, the Zodiac was very meticulous. He had the meticulousness of a bomb maker. Well, that's not too surprising if it is Ted Kazinski. And also the Zodiac sent two bomb diagrams

through the mail to the police. Something that that that really fascinated me is that once Ted Kazinski was was I'm sorry. Once the Zodiac was spotted after the murder of Paul Stein and a composite picture circulated, the Zodiac stopped killing. But in his writings he turned to a couple of different topics. One was bombs and another was children. Both of these figure highly in the career of the Unibomber.

If you look at the manifesto from beginning to end, Ted Kazinski regularly detours to the topic of children, and the FBI correctly noted that he wasn't really concerned about other children. He was talking about his own troubled childhood. This was what was causing him problems, and obviously bomb making was very, very crucial to the unibomber.

He was terrified to even talk to a woman, let alone create a relationship with one, so that he tried to figure out, how am I going to believe this sexual tension in my life and how am I going to cope with myself? And he came up with this really strange solution to his problem. And this is not my theory, this is actual Ted Kaczynski's words. He decided

to get a sex change operation. This was in nineteen sixty six, and he decided that to do that he had to go to talk to the campus campus doctor and explain the situation and say, you know, I think I need a sex change operation. And his crazy logic. His idea was, well, if I can't touch a woman and I can't meet a woman, maybe if I become a woman, I can use those sex organs that will then be on my body to take care of myself

or whatever. Which is interesting because in the confession letter, the zodiac threatens to attack women cut off or female parts, which is precisely what Ted Kazinski was talking about doing and getting female parts deposited on his body. Anyways, he went to talk to the psychiatrist or the doctor, but while he was sitting in the waiting room, he changed his mind. He suddenly realized, what am I doing. I'm considering emasculating myself. I'm considering doing this how horrible this is,

and he got very angry. He made up a quick story for the doctor and said he was afraid of the draft, and the doctor talked to him and appeased his worries and sent him on his way. But walking away from that doctor's office, Ted decided then and there that he could be angry at anybody wanted to, and he could kill anybody he wanted to. He wanted to have an enemy. At that point. He wanted to kill the doctor he had just talked to. He wanted to

kill somebody somewhere. He became overwhelmed with rage. That is the genesis of his becoming a serial killer. This is nineteen sixty six, and if the common assumption about the Unibarmer is true, he did absolutely nothing about that for twelve years and then became the unibomber. I think a more logical explanation of events is at nineteen sixty six, when Cherry Joe Bates was killed in Riverside. He was responsible for that spoke about having women's female parts cut

off and deposited. He wrote that letter. He wrote debates letters which he includes the name Theodore, and then went on to become the Zodiac serial killer in northern Kelfornia when he began his work at at the Berkeley at UC Berkeley in the math department.

way and build a case around that. What I try to offer is a very comprehensive comparison between the two of what we know of the unibomber, what we know of the Zodiac, and how incredibly similar the two are, despite the fact that they seem to be two completely different criminal campaigns.

lot more murders than we have any idea of. We may just be scratching the surface of the damage that he has done.

chase that Ted Kaczynski is the Zodiac serial killer. I would love DNA, the Zodiac DNA to be found, and for people who insist on having DNA as a deciding factor, that would be very helpful. I believe I'm providing a literary DNA that right now, literary forensics or forensic linguistics is very early. It's in its infancy, so it has a lot of maturing to do as a science and

as a respected science. I believe in time my work will be recognized for what it is and for providing forensic a forensic explanation for Tech Kazinski being the Zodiac. But I don't know if that will happen in ten years or fifty years or what. But I'm happy to share the results of my research and my part in this case.

the results of my research that I'm now presenting. I expect there will be a certain contingent of people who are so wedded to their own ideas that they won't take a serious look at at my work, which they're free to do that. Some people are very convinced that it's their father, their birth father, or stepfather. Other people are very convinced that it's this suspect or that other

suspect that's being debated online. So you know, if you want to do research that contradicts my research, go for it. Show me your evidence, Explain to me how my arguments are wrong. I think I've been very reasoned and very careful in laying out facts and using reason to come

to the conclusions that I do. If my reasoning is faulty, or if my conclusions are wrong by all means, point them out to me, I would I would love to learn more, even at the even at the y at the risk of being wrong or shown to be wrong and what I've produced there may be a contingent who say, wow, Mark, you've been very thorough in your research and you make a very compelling case. I really have no control over how other people respond to it, and that's not that's

not really my concern. That's not something that I can do anything about. But I'm looking forward to discussing ideas in the coming months and years.

For those that might want to take a look at the other work, do you have a Facebook page, your website? How can they take a look?

your show. Dan. This is the fourth time we've been together to UH to UH to talk about different books that I've written. And when my publisher talked to me about you know, where do you want to actually launch this, I said, you know, I would like to be interviewed by Dan and do that the day before to give Dan an exclusive. I also want to thank the many

people who have kept things quiet until today. There are probably two hundred people all together who wow, have heard my theory and have I've talked with about this case in the last few months. I was interviewed by the Travel Channel on October three. The Travel Channel will be showing a special of which I contributed to. I also talk with CNN back in June and they plan a

special coming out, probably not until early next year. And all of these people signed non disclosure agreements, and I'm very pleased that nobody got on social media and started sharing what I'm sharing today, and I'm happy to be able to share that with you, Dan, because you've been very fair to me and you've asked excellent questions in the number of times that you've.