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You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
The solution to the Zodiac serial killer case is as clear as it is controversial. One man, a letter writer, bombmaker, and code creator, was living in the area at the time of the Zodiac murders, had easy access to all the crime scenes, and had a psychotic break at the
time the Zodiac began his heinous murder campaign. A genius level mathematician, he was clever enough to disguise his handwriting, avoid leaving evidence like fingerprints, and produced diabolically difficult ciphers to taunt the police and the public with his identity that lurked just on the other side of his impossibly difficult codes. That man is Theodore J. Kazinsky, a product
of the mk Ultra project at Harvard University. Kazinski was one of the youngest mathematics professors in UC Berkeley history, a position he despised. Kazinski committed his first murder as a Zodiac over winter break nineteen sixty eight, and his second just after resigning his post as professor in July nineteen sixty nine. His criminal signature, letter writing, and code making continued unabated across both of his criminal careers as
a Zodiac and Unibomber. Exposed takes the reader through all the evidence presented in the first two books, Hunted and Profile, and systematically connects the Zodiac and Unibomber cases through handwriting, codes, locations, literature, cultural references, and other unexpected details. Exposed makes it impossible to dismiss Kazinski as the Zodiac, one of the most
evil serial killers of all time. The book that we're featuring this evening is Exposed, The Zodiac Revealed the Zodiac serial Killer with my special guest journalist and author, doctor Mark Hewitt. Welcome back to the program and thank you so much for this interview, doctor Mark Hewitt.
Thank you, Dan, thank you for having me again.
Thank you so much. I forgot to mention you are a the pre eminent Zodiac researcher at one of the preeminent Zodiac researchers in the world today. Let's talk about this reason for our interview and the reissue you say, revised and expanded editions of the three books related to the Zodiac. Tell us about this September twenty seventh release or reissue with the revised and expanded versions of these books. Tell us a little bit about this reissue.
Sure September twenty seven. We reissued the three books because of updates in the case and updates that I've been receiving from readers. In each one of the books, I say, we try as hard as possible to make sure that everything is absolutely correct, but if something is not correct, please bring it to our attention. So we have had to revise a couple of times. It's actually this here in twenty and twenty two. It's the third edition of Hunted and the second edition of both Profiled and Exposed.
The biggest reason for updating it at this time was as a result of the new development in the case, and that was the solution that was achieved to the zodiacs three pin forty cipher, huge news about two years ago. In December twenty twenty when a group of three individuals spent a lot of time and a lot of computer power and solved the cipher and made international news once the FBI had confirmed that yes, indeed, they had solved it.
Dave Orangechuck, an American software developer, worked with two other individuals, Sam Blake, an Australian mathematician, and Jarl Venaik, a Belgian programmer, and the three of them, working from three sides of the globe, interacted back and forth and came up with ideas of how it was possible to solve the case, to solve the cipher, and through group force and a whole lot of ingenuity, they were able to solve it.
Sam Blake I believe the mathematician was able to provide for the other two different types of layouts that cipher could have been displayed in. Obviously, it was just a sheet of symbols when it arrived in the mail in November of nineteen sixty nine, and this set of symbols it was seventeen across by twenty long, making up three hundred and forty characters, hence its name. It's called the
Z three forty. Obviously, the first place to start was go from top to bottom, left to right, as we do in our normal reading, and for forty years taking a look at it in that way did not lead to any results. And that was the natural way to look at it, because the first cipher, the Zodiacs four h eight, was solved in just that manner, left to right, top to bottom. So SAM provided the other two with as many as six hundred and fifty thousand different ways
of lining up the code. It's not that they looked at six hundred and fifty thousand possible solutions. They looked at six hundred and fifty thousand possible layouts. So they tried every second character, every third character, going back to front,
going bottom to top. What ended up being the correct solution was to divide it up into three chunks, the first nine lines, the second nine line, and then the last two lines, and then go diagonally from the top to down to the right, and when you hit the bottom, you look back at the top, and so you get this diagonal pattern within each one of the three boxes.
And then so for each one of these layouts that SAM provided, they set computer program or programs to run and to look at exactly what the translation might be if it was if it was done in that layout. So essentially they looked at billions and billions and billions of possible solutions to the cipher, and then what they had to do was they had to go through them and look for anything that looked interesting, anything that looked promising.
And one day in December of twenty twenty, David was looking through it and he found the phrase I don't want to go to the gas chamber or some portion of that, and he goes, holy cow, this is rather significant, and so he alerted the other two. We had them, tried different things, tried different ways, believe they had it correct, but it wasn't matching up exactly. Turns out that Zodiac made an error in the second box and skipped the line, and so they had to look at other permutations, and
then the last box, the last two lines. Instead of going diagonally, they went bottom to top, right to left, and once they put it all together, they found the entire solution and presented it to the FBI, who said, oh, my goodness, yes, you have solved it.
Now, for I'd like to ask the question solving of this three P forty cipher, What does the solving of the cipher. How does it contribute to your ideas that Ted Kazinski and the Zodiac are one and the same.
The solution was absolutely monumental because it was the first communication from the Zodiac in nearly forty years. You know, it was sent back in nineteen sixty nine, but it was never solved until then. I'd like to read the actual solution that might be of interest to your viewers. I hope you were having lots of fun and trying to catch me that wasn't me on the TV show,
which brings up a point about me. I am not afraid of the gas chamber because it will send me to Paradise all the sooner because I now have enough slaves to work for me, where everyone else has nothing when they reach Paradise, so they are afraid of death. I am not afraid because I know that my new life will be an easy one. In Paradise, life is death. So I was kind of surprised by the initial reaction
of a lot of Zodiac researchers. They read through that solution and said, oh, it says nothing, there's nothing new here, And I guess they were expecting the Zodiac to present his full name, so that they could say, hey, this case has been solved. Obviously, the Zodiac did not do that. But I came to a very different conclusion. I realized that there was a whole lot of information in here, but it would take some time to dig out. And I'm still waiting for all of it to be dugout
or to have time to do the work myself. But the exact vocabulary used, the idea is presented the disyntax, all of that speaks to the character of the person who put it together. One thing I noticed on message boards is within the next couple weeks of it being solved, a number of individuals are saying, gee, it looks like the Zodiac is a little bit more intelligent than I
thought he was. So they were starting to look for a more scholarly intelligent individual, not only because of the way that the cipher was constructed obviously shows a certain amount of intelligence, but also the way of relating, in the way of communicating so to me, I noticed right away the phrase I am not afraid of the gas chamber kind of an unusual statement. Who can actually say that most criminals attempt not to get caught? Most criminals are afraid of being put to death as a result
of their crimes. But this individual said he was not afraid of the gas chamber. And incidentally, this was as a response to anonymous person calling into Jim Dunbar in the AM San Francisco television show back in nineteen sixty nine, in which this person, who purportedly was the Zodiac but was ruled not to have been, said I'm afraid of the gas chamber. So this led the Zodiac to send this message saying that I'm not afraid of the gas chamber. The one Seria killer that I know of who is
not afraid of the gas chamber. As Ted Kazinski, he has repeatedly said he would rather die than to be tried in court using a insanity defense. In his trial for the unibomb case, his defense team decided that the only way to save his life from execution was to put up an insanity defense, something that Kazinsky was absolutely against using. In fact, they led him on to believe
that they weren't going to do that. They even had him agree to meet with a psychologist and answer a lot of questions and get a psychological profile of him in an effort to prove that he was not in saying was not mentally ill. All the while they had decided that they were going to put up an insanity defense and say, look at the small cabin this guy was living in, look at his reclusive lifestyle. Obviously, something obviously he slipped a cog from being a graduate of
Harvard and a PhD professor at UC Berkeley. Something obviously went wrong. So Kazinsky, because he wanted to stand behind the words of his manifesto, absolutely rejected any notion that he was mentally ill and said he would rather be executed.
In fact, some people thought that he was going to go through a show trial of a show trial to put up his beliefs in front of the world and have everybody talking about them, knowing full well that he would probably be found guilty and be sentenced to death. So that's one indication from that solution of the cipher that Kazinski may indeed have been involved in it.
You say, you're right that the coding is a natural thing for mathematicians, and the FBI when the unibomber was arrested missed many many things that you purpored in your book show and demonstrate let's talk about when he is arrested the unibomber, the cabin is searched, and evidence to prove that the unibomber is who he is is their main goal. Tell us about the cabin and the contents, what was actually found in that cabin, and then what has happened with the contents of that cabin since.
Okay, in April of ninety six, he was arrested outside of his cabin. He was lured out on a pretense that some surveyors were looking at the land, and he was grabbed and wrestled to the ground and arrested. They
found within his cabin booby trapped cabin. He hadn't had enough time to set the booby trap, but if he had set the booby trap, which apparently he did, every time he left the cabin, anybody going through the front door would blow up the cabin and blow up its contents, ssumably protecting him from identification and a lot of his criminal activity. There was so much stuff in his tiny cabin that it took the FBI a week to cart
it all out and catalog it. And I found a number of things that I found fascinating and potentially tying him into being to being the Zodiac serial killer. Should be noted that nothing found within the cabin portrayed a direct link, no cold from the Zodiac days, or no weapon that looks suspicious for being used earlier, which which may not be surprising because it was twenty five years later, more than twenty five years later than the Zodiac murders,
so presumably everything had been gotten rid of by then. However, I noticed three categories of items within the cabin that were found pointed to the Zodiac. One was codes. Ted Kazinski was very active in creating codes. Much of his journal material was encoded, especially the more sensitive items, so that nobody would be able to understand what he was
putting together. In fact, the FBI said that they had not seen such complicated codes since the height of the Cold War, and that at least one of the codes would never have been cracked if it weren't for the fact that a key to that code was also found within the cabin. So codes pretty significant part of who the Zodiac was. He sent four codes in letters over the course of his career in California. The second item
was obviously bombs. Ted Kazinski as the Unibomber sent and set sixteen bombs over the course of his career as the Unibomber. The Zodiac twice included a code and included a bomb diagram in one of his letters. The first one was kind of a crude bomb, and the second one was a diagram of an improved design for a bomb, which is exactly what Kazinski did. Over the course of
his career. He diagrammed a lot of bombs. In fact, he did more than five hundred tests on bombs and bomb creations while he was in Montane learning to improve the strength and lightness and weightlessness of his creations. So and the other was disguises. Ted Kazinski was very adept at using disguises to disguise his looks disguise his footprints.
They found within his cabin a pair of shoes that was his size shoes, but under the bottom of those shoes were glued the soles of smaller shoes, so that Ted could walk around in the snow or walk around in the dirt and leave footprints that were actually smaller than his feet. Visual disguises that he used, he often put cotton balls in his up inside his lip to change the shape of his face. He cut his hair, he grew out his hair, he grew his beard, he
trimmed his beard. He did a whole lot of different things to appear different to other people whenever he was involved in his criminal activities. But what he's most known for is obviously the sweatshirt and the sunglasses that he wore, the hooded sweatshirt and the sunglasses he wore the time that he was cited, and a composite picture was made of him. The Zodiac at Lake Barry Essa September twenty seven, nineteen sixty nine, wore a hood and sunglasses as a disguise.
So if you went to any serial killer, and any of the known serial killers that we've been aware of that have been caught, went into their home and looked to find items in their home, none of them would you have found disguises and codes and bombs, which is exactly what you would have expected to find if you were looking at the contents of the home of the Zodiac serial killer.
When you talk about bombs, you talk about the diagrams that the Zodiac sent and then the actual bombs that the unibomber sent and created. But these diagrams were of a yet to be constructed bomb. To cement your ideas, tell us as you write the comparison of the diagrams verse the actual bombs made the similarities what you actually saw when you compare the two.
In some ways, there are very different bombs. The Zodiac drew diagrams of a roadside bomb, something that would detonate when a bus drove by. Right, it was never proved to have been created, In fact, may never have been created.
I suspect it was never created. My suspicion is that Ted Kazinski, very somebody who was driven by obsession and compulsion, sent these diagrams out as the Zodiac, knowing that he would never build them, knowing that he probably didn't have the technical know how to actually construct them, which the law enforcement said was in theory they could be done, but practically it'd be very difficult to get everything lined
up exactly as he had in the diagrams. My suspicion is that Kazinski, being so obsessive, it bothered him that he could send out diagrams and threaten people but couldn't actually do anything about it. I believe that set in motion for him a quest to actually be able to provide a bomb and kill somebody with a bomb, to say to the people of the San Francisco Bay area,
if not just himself, yes I can do this. So bombs are very different in nature, but there are two very distinct items that do translate from the Zodiac's bombs to Ted Kazinski's bombs. Number one is the use of dual circuits. Both of the Diagrams and the Zodiac bombs have dual circuits, or a circuit used for two uses. In other words, there's a backup, something is more complex than a simple single circuit. The Unibomber bombs, there were
redundancies built into the bombs. In fact, that's what the FBI used to be able to identify one Unibomber bomb to the next. In addition to obviously the Ted Kazinski claiming credit for them and leaving a little tag inside many of them identifying FC, the group that he purported to represent. His use of dual circuits is something that's not very well known, not very common within the bomb
constructing community. In fact, he used pipe bombs, and he actually drilled two holes in the pipes and had two wires going through some of these pipe bombs, so that if one didn't detonate the device, the other one would very unusual, very not seen very often. And then the other item that connected the two bombs was the idea that each one of them was a passive detonation device. In other words, there was no timer for any of these Zodiac bombs or the unibomber bombs that were used
to detonate the bomb at a certain time. There was no fuse that had to be lit. Every one of the bombs of the two Zodiac diagrams and Ted Kaczynski's sixteen bombs, all of them were set in place and remained motionless until acted upon by an outside force. In one instance, it was set up to an altimeter barometer so that when the bomb, which was on the in the cargo of an airplane, when it achieved about three
thousand feet of elevation caused the bomb to detonate. In the other cases, somebody had to pick up the bomb or open the package. It had to be acted upon from an outside force to detonate. This, too, is not rare, but it's a characteristic of both the Zodiac bombs and Ted Kazinski's.
Bombs, as you write in the book, tell us the premise of and the impetus for the Zodiac to end his reign of terror and for the Unibomber to begin. And when critics of your theory of the idea that Kazinsky Teed Kazinski is a Zodiac, when they look at information that bolsters their argument that they can't be the same, what is the information, what is the evidence that you present for them the similarities and for the proof that they are one and the same.
Well, first of all, I should say that I'm very pathetic to people who don't make the connection, because when I first heard the idea that Ted Kazinski could be the Zodiac, I thought it was absolutely foolish. I thought it was stupid. In fact, it took me a second to figure out why anybody would even think Ted Kazinski, the Unibomber, was also the Zodiac. And then I realized, oh, yeah, bombs. The Zodiac threatened with bombs, and Ted Kazinski actually used bombs.
But beyond that, I really couldn't see anything and thought it was a silly idea. But as I came to understand Ted Kazinski, I realized that a lot of what a lot of the information about him floating around and generally accepted within society is completely false. Ted Kazinsky is an absolute liar. Made a list of some of the things he's not. First and foremost against technology. It's true that he was against technology, and he wrote his manifesto
decrying the effects of technology in the world. But that's not why he killed. And the proof of that is that he killed in the attack for sixteen years before saying anything about being against technology. He said he didn't say anything because he wanted to make sure that murder had been taken place so that his words would be taken seriously. Well, he killed two people and still said
nothing about technology. It wasn't until he killed a third person and got weary of what he was doing that he put together his manifesto, which, in the words of John Douglas and others, that manifesto is merely rationalization for doing what he did. The truth is Ted Kazenski killed people because he liked killing people. He was, first and foremost a serial killer. He claimed that he attacked people only in the heart science as well, that wasn't true.
There were a couple of his victims who were in the softer sciences, and his bombs were sent and were set in such a way that any innocent bystander could have been killed. The children of these people that he sent the bombs to, as secretaries who opened the packages or law enforcement officials who opened the package were injured by his creation. So saying that he had these targeted people, that they were the only type of people that he wanted to kill simply weren't wasn't true. And he said
he would stop if the manifesto was published. That was not true either, because when they went into his cabin they found a fully armed bomb already to be sent, and profilers were quite certain that Ted Kazinski would continue his bombing campaign one way or the other even if the manifesto was published, as it was that somehow Kazinsky would rationalize or come up with an excuse for continuing to bomb, because killing was his first and foremost reason
to be. It appears that the Zodiac stopped killing in nineteen sixty nine because of the Pallstein event, where he shot in cold blood cab driver Paul Stein on October eleventh, nineteen sixty nine. Walking away from that event as he headed over to the Presidio Park, he was spotted by a couple of police officers. He may have been stopped.
There's disagreements about whether he was stopped and talked to or not, but what appears to have happened is that he was extremely scared of nearly being caught only by sheer luck that the message that went out over the radio waves is that they were looking for a black perpetrator, and so the Zodiac may have been spoken to or may have just been driven past because he was white and was not apprehended at that time. That seems to have been the event that caused the Zodiac to pull
back and no longer kill. As far as we know, my contention is that he was frustrated that he could no longer kill. He spent a few years, he retooled and showed up next in Montana and began his career as the Unibomber in nineteen seventy eight.
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ZipRecruiter dot com, slash murder. ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire. Now we just left off, were speaking about the reinvention or the Unibomber, the formation of the Unibomber, and you talk about the reasons for the Zodiac to go underground, to no longer exist, for Ted Gazinski to want to rewrite the script, and you say that the Unibomber provides him that opportunity.
Can you explain well, Ted Gazinski's primary drive in life is to kill people. That's what brings him a sexual and emotional thrill, and that's the focus of his life and has been ever since nineteen sixty six. As the Zodiac. He took great pains to make sure that he was not identified. He faked his handwriting, He faked his intelligence
and education. He faked his ability to write when he sent letters, so that he was able to kill within the Bay Area without bringing suspicion upon himself because for the first few murders he was actually living in the area. He was a math professor at UC Berkeley from nineteen sixty seven to nineteen sixty nine, when he decided to retool. He moved to Montana to get away from the Bay Area, to get away from his former life, to get away from a lot of things that were going on with him,
both professionally and psychologically. He with his brother bought an acre plot outside of Lincoln, Montana, and constructed his tiny unibomber cabin from there. He decided, how am I going to continue my effort at killing people, but do it in such a way that I don't approach them directly. Obviously approaching people directly is an extremely high risk way
of killing people. He decided to continue down his idea of constructing bombs and killing people with bombs, and that would remove himself from the vicinity of the people that he killed and make it far more difficult for law enforcement to catch him. Interestingly enough, when he was cited as the unibomber, he took a number of years off of his career of killing, and he returned. And once he returned, he never again set a bomb in place in a parking lot or anywhere else, or in a
hallway outside of a classroom. He only mailed bombs through the United States Postal Service. In other words, once he was cited, once a composite picture was created of him and circulated, he got scared and he went even further underground, and from that point on only sent bombs.
The philosophy that he was espousing, you say, you write that it developed in terms of what he was saying to the public and what he wanted the public and everyone to know had evolved from what you right as Zodiac seeing himself as a failure in many ways.
Can you explain, Yeah, there are hints of his anti technology stance, even as the zodiac. It's a little bit elaborate to get into. It's covered within the pages of Exposed if anybody wants to look into it further. There were elements of being afraid of technology and trying to warn the public. The way he did it and the way he communicated was very poor. Obviously he wasn't picked up on by the people of the Bay Area at that time. But the manifesto in which he talks about
being anti technology, it's something that he believes. He absolutely that it is part of his personality, that's part of his philosophy of life. Where the logic doesn't hold is that that's not the means, that's not the reason to kill other people. Right. A lot of people have the idea that Ted Kazynski's an environmentalist, he's concerned about the encroachment of technology on wildlife. The truth is he didn't
care about the environment. He admitted in his own journals and notebooks that he polluted, he littered the areas that he didn't care about, he poached animals in the area, and he really didn't care about wild nature. And even within the manifesto, the only time he talks about the natural world and environmentalism is in the area where he's talking about trying to find followers for his cause. He had this idea that if he throws in these tidbits
of popular culture, people would be attracted to it. So if he portrays himself as an environmentalist and says that technology is hurting the environment, maybe a lot of environmentalists will be attracted to him and his teachings. But it really had nothing to do with who he was.
You cite for your argument letters and books and all kinds of influences that show the similarities between the Zodiac and the Unibomer, and not differences as many people contend.
Can you explain yeah, Interestingly, very early on in my research, I came to the conclusion that the Zodiac was interested in literature, was interested in books and reading. All the letters that he wrote and all the codes that he provided in his writings showed somebody who was very comfortable, was sitting at a desk or sitting at a table
and spending long hours working. His references and quotes of somewhat esoteric literature show a person who is rather educated, which is kind of strange when you see his messy scrawl and his spelling mistakes, spelling, firing firi, spelling kid c id. He obviously took great pains to present himself as uneducated and not very intelligent in his writing. And yet here he's talking about the Mikado, quoting lines in the Mikado, He's making references to Connolly's The Most Dangerous Game.
He's even referencing buttons that indirectly point back to Herman Melville and Moby Dick. So here's a guy who has read a lot and has had a certain level of education, but it is trying to pretend that he's not. I noticed within the more material letter that he used three semicolons. In that three page letter. He used them exactly correctly, and no other place in the letter should a semi
colon have been used. I don't know about your education, Dan, but when I learned about semi colon and in high school, I barely understood it. I didn't take much notice of it, and I certainly didn't use semi colons. That wasn't until college that I threw them into some of my papers to make them look a little bit better, And wasn't until grad school that I became comfortable with using semi
colons and using them regularly. So for the Zodiac to portray himself as somebody who's not educated and yet uses semicolon so correctly demonstrated to me that he was a lot more educated and intelligent than he was portraying himself.
He also taught about the sophistication of both of these perpetrators and their evasion techniques being similar.
Yeah. Fascinating me about the Zodiac was the six page letter that arrived soon after the attack on Paul Stein, the last known Zodiac murder. It was a long letter, and it was an extremely defensive letter. It was almost like he methinks thou dost protest too much. He spent six pages telling everybody how intelligent he was, and he kind of betrayed himself and betrayed what he did to
try to impress people. But he talked about putting glue on his fingertips to prevent to prevent fingerprints from being left. He talked about wearing a disguise, even though he didn't say exactly what it was, And he portrayed himself even through his messy handwriting and his juvenile type wording, that
he was quite sophisticated in evading law enforcement. And I've even heard people on the internet say, well, obviously the Zodiac wasn't as intelligent as Ted Kazinski, because you know, Ted Kazinsky has a PhD. And obviously the Zodiac wrote in messy letters. But when you think about it, the Zodiac was never caught and Ted Kazinski was. So there's a certain amount of criminals sophistication going on.
You make all kinds of arguments for other things where there seems to be so many similarities and information that the FBI, honestly, in their quest to basically create an ironclad case against the unibomber, missed vital analysis of evidence and information contained in that cabin.
Yeah, let me say a couple of things about that. First, I mentioned earlier that don't hold it against anybody for not seeing the unibomber in Ted Kazinski the Unibomber in the Zodiac, because it was the same way. At the same time, I'm really surprised that if people really looked into the unibomber, looked into Ted Kazinski and found out the truth about him, I'm really surprised that so many people write him off out of hand and say, well,
no it it just couldn't be. And there are some very well known people who have written books and published and said there is absolutely no way in hell that Ted Kazinski could be then could be the Zodiac because
they were just so different. Well, if you look at you look into the details of the cases, you find out it's not always that black and white, that there is a whole lot of a whole lot of similarities when you dig below the facade of lies of Ted Kazinski, I assembled six or seven what I call constellations or groups of evidence that indicate to me that they were
the same person. And I'm not talking about he made a letter e, that Ted Kazinski made a letter E similar to the way the Zodiac did, or some minor piece of evidence which has been used lately to write entire books about You find a couple of connections. Oh, he wrote codes as a boy scouting, lived in the Bay Area. He must be the Zodiac. This is six or seven groups of many pieces of information, including the
writing style. We already went over what was found in the unibomber's cabin that linked him up to, if not specifically a forensic match linked up to what you would expect to find in the Home of the Zodiac, that the bomb creation, the type of bombs, the unique nature of the bombs. But I also found some extensive and compelling literary matches between the two. Let me go over two of them. Number one, paragraph one sixty six of the Unibomber Manifesto is a paragraph talking about what Ted Kasynski,
as the Unibomber, wants to happen. Two things need to take place. It's an elaborate paragraph of six or more sentences, and yet the structure of that paragraph is almost identical. Not the wording per se, not the level of education, but the structure of the paragraph is almost identical to
the paragraph that occurs within the Zodiac's Dragon card. In that card, which may be the most significant piece of writing that the Zodiac ever released to the public, it states what the Zodiac wanted to happen, demands of the public, and if his demands were not met, he would continue ahead and with what he called his blast, his detonating
his bomb. He wanted two things to take place. So the structure of those two paragraphs is extraordinarily similar, and I outline that in my book Exposed the other is that Ted Kaczynski was absolutely obsessed with the book Secret Agent, Secret Agent by Joseph Conrad right, who also wrote part of Darkness. Why do I know that because he's written about it. He claimed to have read the book at
least a dozen times. One time when he was in his twenties and his family was having a difficult time understanding him and what he was doing, he told them read that book, especially the character, especially about the character known as the Professor, to understand who I am and
what I'm doing. Well, if you read the book Secret Agent, once you have familiarized yourself with the Zodiac letters, you realize that a lot of the wording, a lot of the phraseology, and a lot of the ideas the entire Zodiac case come to us from the novel The Secret Agent. And again I don't mean just item here and there. I mean the use of numbers, the use of locations. Joseph Conrad in that book talks about a cab of death.
Numerous numerous words and ideas come to the Zodiac case from that particular book, and to me as a very strong indication that Ted Kaczuski stands behind the Zodiac serial killer.
Let's esus as an opportunity to stop for a second for these messages.
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Now there are detractors, obviously, as you mentioned, But I think the one thing that has to I mean has to be the most important is is debunking the alibi that brother David had spent the entire summer of nineteen sixty nine with Ted in Western Canada with potentially looking
for a place to homestead. Tell us why this alibi doesn't work and and about the possibility of forensic testing, even though many of those items, almost all of the items that were in that cabin were auctioned off in about before the turn of the century.
Oh boy, you ask a very broad question. But let me pull it back even a little bit more. I've lost my train of thought, but I'll start. I'll start at the end, and maybe I'll be able to work my way backwards. The items of the Unibomer's cabin were auctioned off to the public in twenty eleven in numerous lots to raise money for victims of Ted Kazinski. The victims and the victims' families had been awarded millions of dollars to the courts for the damages that Kazinsky did.
Kazinsky has never had a net worth, so the families were never going to receive any of that money they were awarded. But the items of his cabin were auctioned off and a high profile auction conducted by the GSA. They raised about a quarter of a million dollars maybe even closer to half a million dollars that was awarded to the family, So that was that was good for them. Yeah, Surprisingly,
Ted Kaczynski's DNA has never been collected. I was as shocked as anybody to hear that he was imprisoned, given a life sentence at a time when DNA was not regularly collected from inmates. Somebody has said to me that the U Unibomber Task Force did collect unibomber DNA, So maybe back in the nineties they have an older version
or a partial profile. I don't know exactly what they have, but today anybody who is sentenced off and anybody who has arrested, their DNA is taken, but that was not the case when Kazinsky was arrested, So the police may not have his DNA, but at the same time, the police don't have a Zodiac DNA. We have been hoping beyond hope that at some point DNA could be collected and gathered from this from the Zodiac through his letters, such as under the stamps or under the flaps, or
from one of the items. But any testing that's been done has at best produced a very poor, degraded and unusable partial DNA profile. So the quest still continues. But to answer your larger question, if I move it back a little bit, if we look at the timelines between Ted Kazinski and the unibomber Ted Kazinski and the Zodiac, we realized they mesh up pretty well. The unibomber Ted Kazinski was a professor at UC Berkeley from sixty seven
to sixty nine. In sixty eight December, over the Christmas break, the first Zodiac murder, the first canonical murder, took place outside of Valeo. Ted at that time was on break from being a professor. His second year of being a math professor at U C. Berkeley. One month later, he tendered his resignation to the university and finished his term his second year on June the thirty at nineteen sixty nine, four days later. This second Zodiac murder took place in Valao.
Valeo is only about a twenty thirty minute drive from UC Berkeley, so there's there's very easy access there. Following Ted's exiting of academia, there's about a two year gap in his life where very little is known about him. He used his parents' address in Lombard, Illinois as his permanent address at that time, but I would put that in quotes because apparently he spent very little time there.
He did have a job for a couple months over one winter during that break, but his mother spoke regularly about about Ted, regularly just disappearing from their home and not being available, and she didn't know where he went or for how long he would be gone. He never announced when he was going to leave. He just disappeared. So there's a two year gap in his life where very little can be said specifically about where he was. Interestingly, the bulk of the Zodiac murders and the Zodiac letters
took place during that two year period. The next time that we can conclude uasively say where Ted Kazinsky was was in nineteen seventy one, when he showed up in Lincoln, Montana and purchased a property and built his cabin. That was his known location. He was known to be there. He built the cabin himself almost entirely, and therefore we know he was there. Between those two times, the bulk
of the Zodiac activity took place. In fact, following the construction of ted Kazinsk's cabin only a single verified letter from the Zodiac was received, and that was in nineteen seventy four, three years after Ted Kazinski built his cabin. So there seems to be a meshing of the two. I say in my inexposed when Ted Kazinski was active, the Zodiac was quiet. But when the Zodiac was active, Ted Kazinsky was nowhere to be found. He was silent. We don't know where he was or what he was doing.
The one alibi that he has is that his brother published in a book, and his brother has said in several interviews that he spent the entire summer of nineteen sixty nine with his brother. Now that's true, it would be very difficult for Kazinsky to be in the Bay Area and to have written some of the letters, including the more material letter including farweight cipher and the three part letters that contain those that cipher, because they were done in July of sixty nine in the Bay Area.
David Kazinsky said that the two of them were in Western Canada looking for land, but when pressed further, Kazinsky David Kazinski was not very clear on the dates that he was with his brother, and so there is a possibility that they were together for a few weeks going out to the Western Canada looking for land. You know, how long does it take to be in an area to look for land and apply for a land grant. Do we really think that they were together for two
months in Western Canada doing this, I don't know. It's also very likely that the two of them, when they were in Western Canada, once they had found land, drove back to the Bay Area helped ted pick up his two hundred or so books that he had in California. We don't know how those books were transported to Montana, how they arrived at this cabin, but at some point they were and so there's there's a lot of open questions there. There are a few items. Kazinsky did write
a letter. Ted Kazinski wrote a letter to a newspaper in Minnesota showing that he had been driving through Minnesota at one point, which is kind of surprising if you know Lombard, Illinois is his home base. What was he doing in Minnesota?
You right that there are many ways, many ways to forensically close the Zodiac case. And what and what about the possibilities of it being forensically closed? What do you think?
Well, the easiest way is with DNA, and that's what everybody's looking for. DNA is the twenty first century magic bullet to any case. Anytime a case appears on television, it's always wrapped up within twenty minutes. You know, a fictionalized case of something, it's wrapped up in twenty minutes because some he says, Aha, here's some DNA and it matches. Therefore we've got our person. In reality, DNA is not always that easy to find. It's not always that easy
to close the case. It would be wonderful if one of the Zodiac letters revealed DNA and we can capture it and identify the individual who was responsible. That's what most people, I think within the Zodiac community you're waiting for. I realized that there are many other ways of forensically closing a case. You know, before the nineteen eighties, we were still able to put away murderers because even before we head DNA, you know, there are such things as eyewitnesses.
But today there are amazing advances in technology. Hairs, trace evidence, fibers can all be used to link an individual to a crime, and it's entirely possible that there's still may be a hair found somewhere or a fiber located that will close the case. My hope is that the whole area of linguistic forensic develops in such a way that this case can be closed. Linguistic forensics deals with words and the use of language. Right now, it's that it's infinite.
The science is that it's infancy. It's possible, but very difficult to use words to link one person, one piece of writing or one piece of writing to a person in the way that they use language. But it has been done. There's been some very interesting cases. In fact, Ted Kazinski was in part colored because of his use of words. Back early in his when he was arrested and the cabin was being dismantled. Ted Ksky and his lawyers said, no, the search of my cabin was not proper.
You didn't have a right to search my cabin. That the search warrant was unwarranted, and therefore everything from my cabin should be excluded from evidence. But FBI profilers and FBI linguistic experts looked at the unibombers manifest and compared it to letters that Ted had written to his family members, and they realized that there was a forensic match, not a not a one match, but enough of a probability that the two were written by the same person that
the search warrant was justified. It's my hope that the whole science of forensic linguistics develops enough so that the Zodiac letters can be linked to being written by Ted Kazinski. And here's an example. A lot of work is being done right now in AI and the use of AI to improves chess engines and to perform any type of
very complex, almost human tasks. Imagine if all of the words and punctuation and structure of all of the Zodiac letters could be compiled and understood by a computer, and then those words and structures and grammar and punctuation could be compared to every piece of writing that's available on the internet. Wouldn't that be amazing to see what type of match computers could make of these between different people's writings.
I don't know how the computers would do it, but the computers would be able to say, well, this person writes in a certain way, this person writes in another way. This person doesn't use this word, this person doesn't use this type of punctuation. It may be possible in time, and I'm talking decades from now, it may be possible to say all of the writing done by the Zodiac serial killer in a strong way resembles the writing of Ted Kaczynski.
For the reader, you have done a lot of that. You've done a lot of that analysis in terms of the importance of unique words that both use the Unibomber and Zodiac, but also phraseology and the unique spellings and unique grammar that we're attached to that. So you've done a lot of that comparative analysis in this exposed haven't you.
I have, But I fear that I may have blown over the heads of a lot of people or cause people's eyes to glaze over as they skim through some of the pages of Expose. Obviously, the whole book is not about those forensic matches and a linguistic analysis, but you really have to spend some time on it if you really want to dig into it. And I have no problem with my readers kind of skimming over a couple of the chapters on that. But yes, I have done quite a bit of that work. But I think
I think I've made a strong case. But I don't think I've sensed the argument at this point, and maybe it will be at some point now.
Since you've made this contention, and you did make this contention in twenty eighteen, has there been any gift in the idea or your contention?
No, not at all. In fact, the more I learn about the Zodiac case, the more I see a connection to Ted Kazinski. And I hope that's not just because I'm blinded, but it surprises me. Even after the book went to print, knew id ideas came to my mind. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but new indications that Kazinsky might be the Zodiac. But then again, you know there's no single argument. There's no silver bullet to close the case. I wish there were.
Maybe there is hidden within my work, I just don't realize it yet, or maybe somebody else has to do work on top of mine.
Are there others that either vehemently disagree or are there others that are in support of your contention?
No, everybody agrees with everything I say. Obviously I'm kidding. There are a few people who have read Exposed and say, my goodness, you've You've put into words what I've been thinking for quite some time. There are a good dozen or so Zodiac researchers who are of the same opinion that Ted Kazinsky is responsible. I've talked to a few people who are open to the idea that Ted Kazinsky is responsible, but who have not made a decision one way or the But by and large people reject the idea.
I've seen lists of suspects on the Internet that are a dozen in length and don't even include Ted Kazinski. I've seen Ted Kazinski relegated to the area of conspiracy theory, as though to believe that Ted Kazinski is responsible, the police are covering it up. Here here's an interesting tidbit.
I spoke with a very prominent FBI agent who was involved in the unibomber case, and a number of agents came up to him following the arrest of Ted Kazinski and said, you know, this guy really ought to be examined and looked at much more closely for being the Zodiac serial killer. But this senior FBI agent said, no, I'm shutting it down. I'm shutting you down. I'm not We're not going to go in that direction. Because the Zodiac killed in one way, Ted Gazinski killed in another way.
And this profile was absolutely convinced that the two couldn't be the same person. And so those forces within the FBI that wanted to look at Ted Kazensky more closely were turned away and where we're not allowed to do so. I've seen it mentioned on web pages that the FBI has eliminated Ted Kazinski. Well maybe that one profiler took a cursory look at the two and said, no, they
have different styles, so couldn't be the same person. Kevin Fagan of the San Francisco Chronicle, who is in charge of writing about and studying both Ted Kazinski, the unibummer the Zodiac serial killer. He's the one who has written there is no way in hell the two couldn't be the same person. So obviously my ideas are not are not universally held, and in fact, they're a strong minority at this point. But you know, that's okay. People are
free to hold whatever beliefs they want. I know some ernest Zodiac researchers are convinced that it's a certain person, and they feel that it's their duty to go around and convince everybody else that they're right and everybody else is wrong. I don't feel that way. Whatso, where I research, I present my findings. If people don't accept it, great, I'd rather discuss it, though, I'd rather know why people
don't agree with Ted Kazinski being the Zodiac. A few people have shared with me their reservations and reasons that they don't think it's the same person, and that caused me to write one of the chapters of Exposed and respond to each one of these objections. One objection is the Zodiac approached people personally and killed them hands on, up close, in fact, in one time, with a knife, whereas Ted Kazinski as the unibomber only killed from afar
using bombs. So obviously that's two very different styles. Well, yes, it is until you realize that at the murder of Paul Stein, the Zodiac was nearly caught forcing him to stop killing in the Bay Area and stop killing the way he was doing. And if you understand ted Kazinski's personality, that's exactly the type of change that you would expect.
In fact, the Zodiac over the course of his very short career changed and changed considerably from attack to attack, to the point where one of the signature activities of the Zodiac was an extreme change to the moo of what he did. He didn't kill people the same way all the time. He didn't use the same weapon as David Berkwitz, the son of Sam did in all the attacks.
He got rid of a weapon and used a new weapon the next time he attacked, so that and following the attack on Paul Stein, he began to write about what bombing, setting bombs, killing people with the use of a bomb. So there's there's a strong indication that the Zodiac himself changed from being a killer up close and personal with a gun or with a knife to being somebody who distanced himself and wrote about bombing.
He really does speak to his criminal sophistication and his incredible luck or fortune in evading capture for so many years. I want to thank you very much Mark Hewitt, for doctor Markuwitt, for coming on and talking about Exposed the Zodiac, Revealed the Zodiac serial Killer, and this September twenty seventh reissue revised and expanded the Hunted, profiled and exposed the
three books that have been reissued by your publisher. So just tell us a little bit about that and where they might take a look at if they wanted more information.
All three of those books are available on Amazon dot com and through any bookstore. Any bookstore can order them for you if they don't have them in stock. I'd also like to mention that there is a first edition hardcover that we put together of Hunted, the very first book of the trilogy. Right that we have a collectible edition, one hundred volume collection of signed and numbered one hundred hardcover first edition Hunted books. There are only about twenty left.
Once they are sold that they will be available only on the secondary mark. But you can contact my publisher if you're interested in one of these collectible hardcover, fine numbered editions of Hunted. My publisher is Genius book Publishing dot com, or just google Genius Publishing and find out how to find their website. Thank you so much.
Doctor Mark Hewitt exposed the Zodiac, revealed the Zodiac serial killer. It's been a great Thank you so much for this interview and goodnight, thanks for having me, Dan, goodnight. Thank you.