EVIL THOUGHTS: WICKED DEEDS-Dr. Kris Mohandie

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Some of the scariest and most interesting criminals are broken down and analyzed by doctor Chris Muhandi, an expert police and forensic psychologist who has met and evaluated some of the most dangerous people who have walked among us. This book has numerous first hand accounts of his work and interviews for cases like the Angel of Death, serial killer, racist, serial assassin, Joseph Paul Franklin, and even the OJ Simpson case.

Detailed case information, including excerpts of interviews he's conducted with these Offenders provides a platform to learn shocking new information about hostage takers, serial killers, mass murderers, violent true believers, terrorists, and some of the worst predators on the planet. The book that we're featuring this evening is Evil Thoughts Wicked Deeds, with my special guest, forensic psychologist and author, doctor Chris Mohandi.

Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview, doctor Chris Mohandy.

your second year internship. You were moonlighting after hours out of private practice, and you tell us about meeting doctor Martin Reiser, becoming involved in his orbit. Tell us how that happened, how you became interested. Tell us a little bit about that, as you do in the book.

about these things. They were just starting to happen. The words going postal was just, you know, we're just being coined. And you know, here I am. I don't have my PhD, I don't have my you know, malpractice insurance, and didn't really know quite what I was doing. And this gentleman walks in and you know, wants to tell his story and maybe get some help. And he had felt mistreat

his workplace. He had blown the whistle on, you know, on some you know, cost overrun issues in this defense contracting firm, and based upon the aftermath of that, felt

he'd been retaliated against. And his response was to file a workers comp case, and in that adversarial process, felt that his reputation had been maligned and that he'd been destroyed, and his solution was to create a list of people he wanted to kill, purchasing you know, an uzi on the black market for eighteen hundred dollars and basically come to the opinion that if the final hearing didn't go his way, he was going to kill all the people

on his list. And here I am a wide eyed, twenty four year old kid, and uh oh, you know what do I do? Feeling overwhelmed? And that was nineteen eighty eight, and that was my first taste of this stuff. And thankfully that that all kind of worked out, but it was it was scary.

And you know, in nineteen eighty eight, I was in graduate school still and there was a small little advertisement on the bulletin board at my grad school that said halftime unpaid internships at the LAPD with doctor Martin Reiser, and you know, I'd already done one year of an internship at the Anaheim Police Department doing juvenile diversion counseling a couple of years prior, and I thought, you know that I've got a little bit of experience here, and

I spent more time talking to the officers. It seems this seems like it's right on point, and not realizing the legend that I was reaching out to, I said, I'm going to look into this. It might be a nice niche. So I contacted doctor Reiser, I think it was January of nineteen eighty nine, went interviewed with him, and he said, as soon as you graduate in May, I'll take you on as an intern. And in that time period, somebody said, hey, do you know who that is.

That's the guy that founded police psychology. He developed investigative hypnosis, He developed the protocols for how you deal with officers after shootings. He he's the guy that was the kind of the first police psychologist to be attached to negotiation teams. LAPD may have been the third to get hostage negotiation in the seventies, but part of their ground floor development of their hostage teams was to have a psychologist attached to the team and roll out on all these events.

And that's in you know, no small measure because of doctor Riser's you know, groundbreaking work and establishing his credibility. So I got lucky, saw an ad and went in and was well and I was well received, and that was the beginning of that was the real beginning of my education.

And he ran back and you negotiated with him. You said, wrote in the book that you would have done things differently today now talking to that man, but.

That your method of problem solving here, sir, is one method, and here's some others. But you're right, And then I end up finding my way to real negotiation training at the LAPD. I went into it the first course that they had when I got on board, I got to sit in on that. It's a forty hour course. But yes, I did have a prelude of that in the practice in nineteen eighty eight.

been estranged from his family. The title of the chapter in the book is It's a good day to die, Because that morning he called his Psakaiah interest, who had been seeing for a worker's complaim he had he had thought he'd been mistreated at his workplace too interesting themes here, and yet that psychiatrist had had come to the opinion that, you know what, it's your drug problem, not how people are treated you that's causing these issues in the workplace.

And so he had but he had called that psychiatrist that in the morning, having reached the end of his rope, and said, you know what, doctor Griffin, today is a good day to die. And and that is what prompted the call to the location. And what had happened was is that he had gone there to kill his family and then himself. And fortunately his his family had escaped.

Yet his three year old daughter, Janet had not been so fortunate, and she ends up stuck with her dad, who is on a collision course with you know, fatal destiny, and he's you know, he's basically, you know, wanting to kill her and kill himself. So it's a her suicide in progress. He's armed with a handgun, he's been smoking crack and he's coming down and he's he's done, you know, he wants to he wants to end his life. Unfortunately, that's where he was at and he wanted to take

his daughter with him. Was horrible and a little bit more to His story was is that he had fallen out of favor with his family. There had been some shame issues related to a death side vigil with his brother in law. He had said some inappropriate things. The family had basically ostracized him as they as they should

have given what he was saying and doing. He had driven several thousand miles to a famous treatment center, Hazelton in Minnesota, spent a couple of days there and checked himself out Ama because you know, it was too much like the prison camp he'd been in when he was in Vietnam, so being locked even for treatment wasn't an option for him. So as we as you know, so he drives back, tells the family, hey, I couldn't do it,

he said. See, he didn't even finish that. He drives back again to try to get himself back in the facility. They say, nope, we're not taking you. And now he's at the end of his rope. And that's when he arrives back in Los Angeles, you know, basically held bent

on destruction. And so we find out from the good doctor that had been treating him about this history, and of course that goes to the difficulty in negotiating with him, because if we're going to try to help him, he is not willing to check himself in anywhere, let alone go to jail. So in his own mind, he had created no way out other than death and destruction. So it was it was one of the worst hostage incidents

I've ever been at. You've got an innocent life and the balance a guy that you know wants to end his own but not before taking his own flesh and blood. And it's just a matter of time. And here I am, you know, is nineteen ninety two or whatever. I'm you know, twenty nine years years old, and you know, I'm given input to this team and part of my job as a consultant to the hostage negotiation teams of the SWAT team at LAPD is is this negotiable?

school prepares you for. Dan.

very there was some hope here. It looked like there was a lot of hope actually based on the techniques that you guys employed. But in the end heartbreaking. No, he year old with no far.

up must come down, and that's what was happening. So that's what we were up against, and you know, it was it was. It was, you know, kind of my first foray into just how bad things can get and how quickly they could go bad, and then just how important it is what law enforcement does and the efforts

and negotiation to buy time. Even if you can't negotiate, you know, solutions will present themselves the more time you can buy, and we're able to do that and you know, wear him down and ultimately, uh, you know, there is it's not going to be a great outcome for him. I don't want to spoil anything unless you want to ask about it. But it was. It was intense.

At one point he had been a checker at the local supermarket and uh, you know, he saw a guy come through the line with a stethoscope on and the scrubs, and he says, how do I get one of those? And the guy says, well, I'm a respiratory therapist. And how much education does that take? And he guy says, well, here's what it takes. He goes, geez, I could do that, you know, I could have the seeming power of of the outfit and you know the things that I get to do but without having to, you know, go to

medical school. So he was attracted to the power of the job, but not the kind of guy that would

that would seem like a wolf. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing, and unbeknownst to those around him, his yearning and his hunger for power over life and death and the playing god aspect of that had been had been sown years before through his upbringing and through his reading of a book called Upon a Pale Horse's kind of a comic book style, you know, kind of in the dark sense, where a guy ends up startling the grim reaper or Death as he's sending souls either to

heaven or hell. Death ends up dying and the guy in the book has to assume Death's role. I think Saldivar was in his teens when he read this book, and he had an epiphany and identification with that character

that kind of laid dormant years later. When I would interview him after he was ultimately victed of the of some of the homicides that he perpetrated in the hospitals, he he remembered that that experience of having read the book and and and the impact it had upon him, and then he tried to downplay it, but it was clear that that it had filled a void for him, an inner sense of purpose and meaning, and that for a guy like him who had never felt powerful or

any sense of potency, kind of an inadequate guy, it it elevated him and the secrecy aspect of what he was doing is he self, you know, approached people in the hospital that supposedly met his code. It it fulfilled him, and it lifted him out of depression. It lifted him out of despair, and it served a purpose for him.

this isn't good. And at that point, you know, he said, well, I guess this is what I'm supposed to do. And then you know, his version of the story is that he finished, you know, what was supposed to happen naturally, that is end of this. This guy's life that was life saving measures were supposed to end. He was supposed to die naturally. Now I keep saying his version because there is a tendency among these these types of individuals to attribute more approval from those around them than than

you know, is likely really being given. But in his own mind, uh, he concluded this is I guess this is what I'm supposed to do. And that was like kind of the intersection between the fantasy of being in the role of death, the grim reaper, and the reality. And it's kind of like, you know, I often use the the the I guess analogy of you know, once the gen analogy or metaphor that once the genie is let out of the bottle, you can't put him back in again, and the genie being the I've done it

and it's in the world of possibility and probability. And once he kind of done it, meaning taking human life in this fashion for these purposes, it becomes something that they just can't stop doing. Now they may have cooling off periods, you know that serve the purpose of not getting caught. But you know it's like once they've had a drink, they can't they can't put the bottle down.

And and so his task was, you know, as he saw it, was to find out, well, how do I do this and and what does he have access to As a respiratory therapist. He has access to these agents suck sycoline and pavlon, which are Cherai like substances that are designed to allow him to intubate patients. And thus it needs to induce paralysis so that they're not choking

and gagging. But what it does is it stops the breathing, so the breathing tube can be put in, an artificial respiration can occur, and yet the person is completely conscious. So the person is aware that they can't breathe and they're suffocating until the tube goes in and it's done. But if a person is administering this as a method of homicide, it's a particularly traumatic You know, all forms of death in some ways arguably are some less than others.

But in this case, you have full wakefulness and awareness in the victims, but with a complete inability to say or do anything about it. So it's like frozen terror that's completely perceived, experienced fully, but they're immobilized and they

can't do anything to express it. So if you think about those dreams you may have had where you know you can't move and your body's still and these things are happening around you that we might experience in that transition from wakefulness to sleep, it's like that, but with absolute terror. And that was the kind of death that he was inducing in his patients. So it seems peaceful because they're not struggling and not moving because they can't, but it's it's absolute horror and terror.

for negotiation. In the situation I was retained in for the South of our case, the Angel of Death, I was brought in in another operational role, and that was as a consultant to the task force, which which I consulted with them for like four to five years, because it took that long to put the case together. Once it was disclosed that there might have been victims and there might have been might be a case. My role that in that matter was to help understand how these

kinds of offenders offend. We actually went and interviewed some other ones, reviewed other cases, interviewed other offenders that had killed in hospitals, one of whom was Donald Harvey in Ohio, to feed that information to the investigation because the task of the investigation at that point was to gosh, you know, thousands of people have died in this hospital, many of

natural causes. How do we find the twenty bodies that we want to exhum and increase of likely that if they were victims of Saldivar that they would be, you know, within his pool of victims, that is his victimology. And so my assessment there was, you know, what kind offend are we dealing with here? You know, how do we approach him? You know, how do we think about who he was selecting? So that's a different form of evaluation

or assessment in this operational sphere. And then there's times when I work on cases I won't get too far, you know, into the specifics of certain ones, but I do a lot of insanity cases where I'm retained, you know, like somebody's killed one or more people or hurt people, and and their and their defense is I was insane at the time, you know, And my job is to actually going in interview, do traditional psychological testing maybe and then assess whether they didn't know what they were doing

and did or didn't know that it was wrong because of a mental disorder. And I've done you know, I do a fair amount of that to present day, usually in homicide cases. And then sometimes I'll get brought in on death penalty cases to do assessments both for defense and for prosecution around issues of mitigation or aggravation that you know a lot of times the defense will raise an issue tough childhood or gosh, he's got mental problems, and then there's other hypotheses to explore. Maybe the person

just a stone cold psychopath. And so I get brought in on those cases I've done, you know, some serial case, serial murder cases in that regard. I was on the Grim sleeper case in la for example, and then the Aurora Theater shooting case I consulted to the prosecution in Colorado. So that's a different form of assessments. And then there's threat assessment work that I do, which might be a company hires me, or a school they've got somebody they're

worried about. That's that's that's a potential risk or danger, and then I might get brought in either to directly or into directly assess whether they're in fact are risks. So there's a lot of different forms of assessment and evaluation, Dan, and that's what makes my job never a dull moment.

or people practicing the usual peaceful forms of Islam. Then there are violent true believers that might be single issue offenders, people like that are against abortion or animal rights, people that are that advocate violence to fulfill their higher purpose or objectives. And then there's people that have a racist agenda, like you know, white supremacists. Those would be some examples

of violent true believers. The term true believer comes from a book by Eric Hoffer called The True Believer and in the Aftermath of nine one one, doctor Reed molloy, who's a very well regarded for forensic psychologist, a good friend of mine and I were saying, gosh, you know, we didn't oulsis of it. We published it, and in that process we were going to use the term true believer, and Reid said, you know, doctor Malloy said, you know that it's really not just true believer. There's a lot

of true believers out there. We're talking about violent true believers, people that are willing to use violence in favor of it. And thus the term was coined in our Homicidal and Suicidal States of Mind article that came out in two thousand and one, just after nine to one one happened, and it was read that suggested putting the violent in front of the true believers. So I give him credit for,

you know, the violent true believer label. And then the article was one that was co authored by him, myself and some other noted people in the area of mass homicide publications and scholarly research. And it's fun now that's in usage. It's used a lot. I remember watching a

James Bond movie, uh I think it was. It might have been the first one with Daniel Craig, and I remember him saying, well, he's not even a true believer, and it's like, wow, this this term has been has now you know, become dispersed and is in use by the people that we want to be using it, you know, in the in the in the intelligence and anti encounter terrorism communities, and now it's found its way into you know, into the art that imitates life.

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where they were interviewing him. The show never aired, or I think the pilot only aired or whatever. But based upon hearing what he had to say and learning more about him, I said, I got to get it back out there and talk to this guy. This is like, this is intense. And it was because he'd killed twenty three people in racially motivated homicides. He was trying to start a racial holy war. He was hoping to, you know, cause a war between African Americans and Caucasians and divide,

you know, our society. And he actually was sort of inspired, well not sort of inspired. He was inspired by, you know, some of the racists, like the White Knights of the ku Klux Klan, the original ones Nathaniel bed from Forrest, who founded the KKK back then as a terrorist organization. Josephaul Franklin had actually been in some of the KKK groups in his part of the country, in the South, and found them too moderate for him. Thought it was all just a bunch of uh, you know, parades and

you know that kind of thing. And he thought, you know, this is this We need action, and so he decided to embark on what he called his mission. And his epiphany was a moment when he was I think it was Christmas Eve, about a year before he did what

he did. He was frustrated because he couldn't get a job as a quote white man, and then he fell back in all the rhetoric he'd been you know, immersing himself in people like Herbert Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God and other you know, the guy that wrote Turner Diaries, William Pierce. All these people were part of the you know, the voices that he listened to and was inspired by, and at that moment in uh in Maryland.

He said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this and uh, he was frustrated he couldn't get a job, and he and again he attributed it to his racist beliefs that the society was not taking care of the white man anymore. And so for a year he read it him read to himself for his mission. He was born under a different name.

Jewish people, mixed race couples. And then he's actually the guy that shot Larry Flint in I think it was nineteen seventy seven because he had seen in Hustler publications Larry Flint had the first mixed race sexually explicit pictorial.

And when he saw it, when just Paul Franklin saw it, he was enraged that I'm gonna kill him, and so then he and then he targeted him Vernon Jordan, and then twenty three other people that lost their lives, including one police officer, because of his desire to perpetuate or promote supremacy and to try to start a racial holy war.

And just one last footnote on that one of his other heroes was Charles mann And many people think of Charles Manson as the cult leader that he was, but if you look closer, Charles Manson was also racially motivated. The whole Helter Skelter thing was about causing a war between whites and blacks in our society at the time, and so Josephaul Franklin was aligned with those ideas as well.

see options. So we call that perceptual constriction and an inability to see that, you know what, there there are other options other than taking your life. And then there is an emotional state of hopelessness. And then and then we talk about the consistency of lifelong styles that the way a person goes about there suicide typically reflects the way they live their lives. If they're more organized or impulsive,

the act of suicide is going to reflect that. In looking at a lot of the homicides that I've seen, there is a very similar process among people where it is a dysfunctional way of trying to solve an interpersonal problem. Usually there is constriction of their of the person's ability to see other options, and the way they go about it does typically reflect lifelong styles, and it usually there usually is some hopelessness, you know, kind of wrapped into

the equation, so there are a lot of commonalities. And in seeing a lot of like the mass casualty suspects, the people that like Joseph Paul Franklin, that are willing to die, not necessarily intending to die, and then looking at violent true believers, notice that you know that there

is a fair amount of overlap between these populations. So that which is part of the reason why we see a lot of times the end of a mass cast the event as the person taking their life, because the same factors that got them to direct that outward are started with initially directed inward at self destruction, because to hurt other people, in my opinion, is a form of self destruction. It is against our species not only to

hurt ourselves, but to hurt others. And just as a footnote here, if anybody out there is feeling hopeless or helpless and like hurting themselves or others, there is hope, There are people that care, and this too shall pass. And all the people that I've ever talked to that have made the decision like that guy at the beginning of my book, they've all been glad that they did not do it. So that's an important message to get

out there. I have that message in my book, but I think this is a nice place to put it in. But there is overlapping harming others and harming oneself, both in the internal processes that get you there and in terms of if one is thinking about hurting oneself. I'm not saying most people are suicidal or homicidal, but I will say that there is a greater risk of being a if you've already got over thou shalt not kill thyself because of your distorted thinking. That that I believe

lessens the inhibitions against harming other people. Again, I want to be clear, most people that want to hurt themselves do not want to hurt other people. But if you compare populations of those that are contemplating self harm versus those that are not, you're going to find statistically, I believe more people that have also gotten over the hurdle of hurting other people in me I got over hurting myself population. You say that makes sense, You're right, Yes, it does.

the ass of them. And he was at a small school here near my home in Pasadena, California, in San Gabriel High School in Alhambra, and he had come to the conclusion that he needed to take his class hostage, maybe hurt some people, maybe demand some money, and plane tickets to Brazil as his way of resolving the fact that he wasn't going to be graduating and he didn't want to be forgotten about. So what he got all

in this situation. You've got suicidality, you've got weapon seeking, you've got him talking to his friends about it beforehand. You've got him in the throes of adolescent decision making, which isn't always the best. And you've got you know, him wanting notoriety. And back then there was no social media right. So it's like he just wanted to make

the news in the newspaper and to be remembered. And we're seeing just so much of that now that if the first goal or all the issues that the person is struggling with and feeling ashamed or you know, worthless, and that violence has become the solution to the problem.

The second layer we're seeing on a lot of these school shooting cases these days, not all of them, but a lot of them is the hunger to be remembered, you know, wanting you know, your fifteen minutes of fame or your followers to increase, you know, all that kind of stuff, and it's available on a scale that we've

never seen before. But Jeff was the leader of the pack in a lot of respects and just taught me a lot about the thought process, the the way his DESI vision making was at the time, because he'd had time to reflect upon it and was very thoughtful, very bright, and talked about how his decision making was things were black and white, you need to do this, you do this, And his inability to kind of pull himself back once he had kind of told other people what am I

going to do? Back out that would just, you know, my ego couldn't take that, and so there were just so many pure lessons in the interview he so graciously gave to me those years ago that I would when I would do school violence prevention or threat management workshops, which I still do to this day, I would invariably show like about five to seven minutes of clips of Jeff talking about how he came to that decision, what he was thinking, and kind of giving a living demonstration

of how he got there and where the mistakes were in terms of managing it. And the lessons haven't really changed. Lessons were all encapsulated there.

The column an effect refers to the to the psychological phenomena of identification, and that there's a lot of people that that have had impulses to hurt others that have been, you know, disturbingly inspired by Columbine and used that as their template, if you will, to plan and unfortunately perpetrate some of these acts that have happened around the world. And so that's the label for that that phenomenon. And

many of these people aren't even in America. There were several of from there's a couple from Finland and Germany that were inspired to do it, Brazil, Australia, of course, Canada, and and some of these people that have been inspired by Columbine weren't even born or conscious of these kinds of things because they were either not born yet or children.

So what what happened is that it be came what we refer to in the profession as a watershed event, one that becomes a reference point culturally, part of the cultural script, and that those that have interest in this area, even if they weren't born yet, study it. And there's

all kinds of stuff unfortunately in social media. So the Columbine effect is refers to the fact that there's been at least at this point, one hundred known plots, some of which were interrupted and some which were carried out, that had resulted in the deaths of dozens of people that were unfortunately by individuals that identified with specifically the

offenders at Columbine. The myths of Columbine, you know, there were these ideas that these two boys were horrendously bullied and that they had these tumultuous pass and they really didn't. They really weren't bullied any more than anybody else. You know.

Bullying is a high profile or not a high profile, but a high frequency event on high school in middle school campuses, unfortunately, but it's so high frequency that if bullying were the cause of school shootings, we would be seeing like so many more than we than we actually do. It's estimated that forty percent of kids have some involvement in bullying at some point in their lives, either as

a bully, as a victim, or both. And there was this claim or this you know, that that the offenders from Columbined, you know, were bullied, they were dishing it out just as much as they were receiving it. There was this myth that they were isolated. They weren't. I mean, I think one of them had actually gone with a bunch of his friends in a limo, all fancily dressed, you know, to prom the weekend or a weekend or two before the shooting. So there's more going on here

than the simple explanation these poor suffering kids. They were not poor suffering kids. They were spoiled, over indulged kids with you know, you know, families that didn't know really quite what they had and then kind of enabled them instead of holding them accountable for when they were pushing limits and breaking rules and you know, didn't quite know what they were dealing with. Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't kids like I talk about Evan Ramsey from

Alaska who have horrendous background. But you know these two kids, Yeah, No, they were the spoiled narcissistic variety.

mental stated issue, there's the sanity phase. And the presumption in most states is that the person is in it is that the person is The presumption in most states is that the person is sane, and it's the job of defense if the evidence is there to prove that the person is insane. At it usually a lower threshold for ponderance of the evidence, as opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt. Now, there are several prongs that often come up. The first is do they really have a mental disorder.

We're not talking that they're under the influence, and there's just difficult people that have trouble getting along with others, but a bona fide mental disorder like bipolar or schizophrenia, where they're hearing things or seeing things or just not perceiving the world in a realistic way. That's the first thing, do you have a mental disorder? And then it's the job to find out whether they didn't know what they were doing was wrong or that somebody was being hurt.

Maybe they thought by I had one guy that he stomped on a guy to death. I had one offender that stomped a person to death because he believed that that's in his deluded thinking, that that was breaking bread with Christ and that that was the person wasn't dying. It was simply a heavenly act of some sort. Okay, So he didn't even get that somebody had died when

he stopped the person to death. Okay. So that's one way a person could be found insane is because their mental state prevents them from understanding that somebody's being hurt.

Another is, hey, it wasn't wrong. I had another guy that shot two people to death that believed that there was a government conspiracy and the government had replaced all these people with fake people, and that there was this whole lawlessness that was going on, and then it wasn't against the law, that was they was defending himself against

this government conspiracy. And again that goes to the wrongfulness prong. So, insanity is a very specific legal definition that does not apply to the vast majority of criminals that claim it. There's a small percentage that actually are found insane by juries, but most people are found I'm sane because there is very specific criteria for it.

we're claiming not guilty by reason of insanity. Then there's usually in California, for example, a second trial on insanity and if they're found insane at that point by that court proceeding the jury says no, we think he's insane, then they're going to go to a psychiatric hospital until the hospital deems them saying and no longer a danger

to the community, and there's assessments that take place. Some people are never found to be restored to sanity or beaned you know, uh, not a danger to the community if they're released, and then some are. They're released all

the time with varying levels of controls. So there can be cases where they might hold other charges as as hey, if he gets out, these charges are waiting, but in most cases it's kind of an all or nothing thing, and they're convicted and then they're they're sent to a hospital, and then once the hospital deems them capable being released, boom, they're back out in the community again, at least in California for example.

first Threat management unit to work stocking cases. And at that point I started consulting with the Threat Management Unit on their cases occasionally, and then we embarked on a massive research project where we looked at one thousand and five stockers. It's published in the Journal of Riensic Sciences. I think it was two thousand and six. It's the biggest single study of stalkers, and we developed a way of categorizing them into four primary categories. One is the

intimate stocker. That's somebody that's pursuing a victim that they've had a relationship with, either married to ex boyfriend X girlfriend and then no longer they have a relationship and they're pursuing them. The second type is the acquaintance stalker. It might be you know, somebody that you were a co worker with, or it might be a victim who is a healthcare provider and it's their patient pursuing them, or a boss being pursued by an ex employee. That

would be an acquaintance stoker. Then there's the public figure stocker, which is you know, when Hoskins was pursuing Madonna, he never knew Madonna. He just saared the media and said, hey, that's my wife, and he had all kinds of delusions, and most public many public figure stalkers are delusional, have serious mental produt problems. And then there's what I call the private stranger stockers. Somebody that's just in your environment.

They might live in your neighborhood or work. We're working at the mall, and just some guy that's unstable forms a fixation upon you, but you've never met them. They might be somebody in the in the universe, at your college. It just becomes fixated upon you. And what we found was the highest violence rates were in the intimate stocking group. We had like I think a seventy four percent violence rate, and then the second highest was the acquaintance stokers at

fifty percent. And then the private stranger stocker violence rate was thirty six percent, and then the public figure stocker rate was at two percent. Now, does that mean that if you've got if you're a public figure and you've got somebody like Hoskin's coming after you, that you should be not concerned. No. I think some of the low rate of that is because a lot of a lot of public figures have entourages and it may also have been an artifact of the data set that we were using.

The issue is what is the person doing, you know, and and are they engaging in risky behavior? That's what we look at. But it was, it was it was a great study that we we managed to get published. It was myself read Malloy, Peter Collins I think was in it, and uh in a couple other people, and uh, it was. It was just super interesting. And but throughout the years, I've worked a ton of stocking cases. I've evaluated them, interviewed them in prison, I interviewed Hoskins and

of course you allude to Uh. Of course you mentioned O. J. Simpson and that absolutely was an intimate stocking case where he was not letting go of uh. Uh Nicole Brown Simpson and uh, unfortunately what ends up happening is uh uh, he ends up killing her and Ron Goldman, who just happened to be I believe in the wrong place at the wrong time. My involvement in the O. J. Simpson case was on that faithful My involvement in the O. J.

Simpson case was on that fateful Friday. I was on call for the hostage negotiation team at LAPD, and like many during that day, we were all watching the news because he was supposed to turn himself in at noon did not. And then what happens in our office at the Behavioral Sciences of LAPD As we start joking, I wonder what time he's going to be a call out, you know, that's what we called them, when we go out after hours or we'd have a barricade or a

hostage incident. And I head home to Pasadena. I'm on call, and next thing I know, I'm listening to the radio, you know, listening to some rock and roll or whatever. They kept interrupting with a pursuit. Now, at that time frame in American history, pursuits were breaking in on TV all the time, and this was the first time one

had interrupted a radio for agrammalic. What is this, And then I realized it was the slow speed pursuit that it was underway, and that caused me to call the hostage team of the SWAT headquarters and they said, yep, we're going to head to the residence. He's supposed to go there to surrender, and we need you to go there,

and so I did. I raced over to the other side of town, which was a trip in and of itself, made it over there very fast, but not without seeing the craziness under on the overpasses, the crowds of people that were at the base of Rockingham when I pulled up my city car there. If I hadn't come behind the captain that oversaw Squat, I'd still be sitting out there. There were so many people at the base of that street, Dan, it was like five hundred people at the base of

the street, chanting. It was a circus like none other. I get through that crowd, pushing and shoving against the car and park in front of the house and meet Mike Albanize, who you mentioned throughout my book. He was the sergeant of the time overseeing the negotiation. Said Robert Kardashian was there. We got a briefing from Robert Kardashian about what was going on with Simpson. Simpson at the time had just pulled it in the drive way, was barricaded in the car with ac in the front, and

he had a gun to his chin. They put a bulletproof vest on me, sent me through the backyard and into the house. I'm doing my assessments going through the backyard. What kind of guy is this? I didn't watch much football. All I knew about Simpson was he'd gone to school with my dad. Well, my dad was the USC. But going through the backyard, it became very clear what kind of person he was. He had two full size statues of himself in the backyard, and his whole corrier walls

were covered with pictures of himself. No family photos like you saw during the trial, just pictures of himself. We jokingly called it. The house was done in early OJ. I get in there, I get to the doorway, I'm behind Pete wire Eater, who was the negotiator. Pete Wireeater's handsome swat guy who also was one of our best negotiators.

And if you ever see any movies like Clear and Present Danger, Pete was good friends with Harrison Ford would often appear in Harrison Ford movies playing different roles, which is where again art imitates life, life imitates art, but in this situation, it was life and Pete was negotiating with him, and OJ was not sure if he wanted to kill himself or whatever. And so the task at hand is to reinflate a narcissist who is deflated by the humiliation of all this. And we used what was there?

Look at all these people you saw him. You still have a ton of people believe in you. He wasn't worried about his deceased x wife. For this man who lost life, Ron Goldman, all he was worried about was himself in his image. And that's what we did. I was in the ear of Pete. Just build him up, and that's what we did. And then he eventually surrendered. He wanted to talk to his mom, he wanted to use the rest room, and he wanted something to drink,

and so he comes in. He collapses into the arms of the officers after after dropping his leaving the gun in the car and says, sorry, guys, I wasn't going to hurt you. I was just gonna hurt myself. And then they got him in the bathroom. They got him his call his mom because his mom was in the hospital time and then we're like, where's the drink coming from? Why is it taking so long to get a drink?

We hear some swat cop in the kitchen, rummaging around like e t as Mike Alboy describes it, in the fridge. What could take so long? This guy's got a fully stocked fridge. Well, what it was was some swat cop with a sense of humor was looking for orange juice. So that the juice and that's what and that's and that's the truth. That's what happened. He walks up, mister Simpson, Uh, here's some orange juice for you.

Tell us about any of that.

doing appearances here and there. But Twitter is the best way to reach out to me, and I'm very responsive to it.

heard me lecture before say it's definitely your voice. But Brian kept me moving.