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You are now listening to true Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Good evening. On a cold morning in December nineteen sixty, sixty year old Laura Munch was found strangled behind the house in downtown Erie, at a time when the gem city was at its peak, including a triumphant run for the coveted All American City Award. The murder created a pandemonium. As the investigation progressed, attacks on women in and around the city of Erie continued, sending citizens and seasoned investigators
to the brink of total chaos. Infamous attacks such as the brutal stabbing of seventy two year old Clara Kerrigg, the attempted strangling and knifing of Helen Nost, and the strangling murders of Mary Lynn Crotty and Eleanor Free caused women to lock their doors and avoid the streets at night. The arrest of truck driver John Howard Willman in September nineteen sixty three. Was not the end of the story, as soon the case attracted nationwide attention, including a lawsuit
by the ACLU. Just who was Erie's infamous backyard strangler with a technicality by police caused the suspected murderer to roam free again to kill more victims. Offer Justin Dombrowski charts the herowing, attacks, investigations, and mystery involving Erie's nineteen sixties reign of terror. The book they were feature in this evening is Eries Backyard Strangler Pair in the Sixties
with my special guest, historian and author Justin Dombrowski. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Justin Dombrowski, thank you for having me, Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book.
Thank you very much.
Now, immediately following your first book for History Press, Murder and Mayhem in Erie, Pennsylvania, you were in discussions with History Press about your next project.
Well, first and foremost, I am a native of Erie, Pennsylvania. I've studied local history, specializing more so, i'd say, in true crime and criminal records here in the Erie area. For just over fifteen years, I did obtain a degree from Merciers University and also worked as an interim the Erie County Detectives Unit, specializing in various different sorts of cases. So I would say that kind of background led me a little bit to creative explore the different areas of
crime that have occurred in Eries history. Kind of brought me to the forefront of doing research, not only your research over the last few years, but also compiling what was my first book, Murder, Mayhem and Erie Pennsylvania, which is through History Press, and then once that was actually released last summer, received great feedback at somewell in sales, and following that, in speaking with my managing editor from my History Press, we decided the next story we would
do would be a standalone through crime book, which kind of led us into Eerie's backyard. Strengthler coming into fruition.
And you say that these are the crimes that included from Erie Pennsylvania from fall nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty four. Let's talk about Holland Street Horror. Your first chapter, you take us to December thirty first, nineteen sixty and George Musey, he's making a missing person's report to Detective Carl Kalinowski. And Carl Kalinowski, the detective seems odd and he recognizes him from the week before and asks him, weren't you
here the week before? So tell us what he was there the week before regarding and tell us a little bit more about this report he's making on this date, December thirty first.
So during the early morning hours a December thirty first, nineteen sixty, George Muscid went to the front desk of the Eria City Police Department at the time, which was in the basement of our local city hall when the old building stood. At the time, it was around four o'clock in the morning. The reason he was at the police department was because he was filing avesting person's report in regards to his mother, a six year old Laura Munch.
His mother, actually George was one of the last individuals known to see her alive. He had dropped her off a church the night previous, and during the early morning hours had received a call from one of his siblings indicating that their mother had not come home. After a fruitful search of the neighborhood area there, they then were instructed by the pastor of that church that they should
reach out to the police for file report. Now, the reason why Kalanowski had recognized Laura Which's son was because previously his brother Leonard, had disappeared was later found to see by a pair of young women after he had
been found happened to die from exposure. And when that had happened, that family had also filed a missing person's report, So that kind of stuck fresh with Detective Kalamowski at the time, kind of made it interesting, i would say, for the most part, because here you have a family they're finiling their second missing person's report within a week.
And as you touched on that fall of nineteen sixty, city of Ry had really seen an uptick in not only burglaries, but petty crime, juvenile crime including pers snashing and what we would you know, what we do come to recognize now as a tax off women.
You're right that a few hours later, a woman named Charlotte Clue was inside her house but happened to look out the window and saw a body of an elderly woman on her back, her dress lifted around her waist. Anyway, there was something shoved in their mouth. She told her landlord, and the landlord called police and you say, Detective Sergeant Carl Melanewski and his partner Philip Loopo arrived at the scene. Tell us what they find.
So when they arrived at the scene, which would have been at a duplex located at seven one seven Holland Street at the time, when you face the front of the duplex, to the north of the duplex, you would have a garage and there was a thin clearance between the garage and the home which would lead into an entrance into the backyard. So when both detectives arrive on scene,
there are several officers there. There's a little bit of a crowd growing as the discovery of the body spread, people starting to moll around the front of the residents. As the detectives arrive on scene, they are advised that the deceased individual was in the backyard of the home, and they went back into the rear of seven one seven Hollow Street and began what we do come to see is the beginning of their cursory investigation, trying to get it just for the area, looking for any kind
of evidence that was possible. At the scene, confirmed that the woman was in fact dead, and they know obviously the proper protocol was calling the county coroner, making sure.
That they do what they can to preserve the scene, tell us about the condition of the body in regards to particulars in terms of the scarf.
So the body when it was found, which obviously the woman would then become identified as Laura much she was there for quite some time when the body was removed, I believe earlier that morning around that which would have been the thirty first of December, around eleven o'clock is when they started the beginning process of examining photographs and removing the scarf that was found wrapped around her mouth
in her throat. Now, the scarfs which would have been around her head prior to her being attacked and murdered, was intricately tied i'd say, around her mouth in a way that would have assisted in what the corner believed was obviously death by strangulation. Now, when she was found, there were some marks on her skin. She had some marks on her nose, heatbones, upper lips. There are some
linear markings that were faintly observed. You know. These were more so red, slightly depressed parallel lines and more or less represented impressions or braces due to contact with clothing of that sort, which could have possibly been from the scarf for the individual that attacked her, you know, the pressure of the scarf created the pressure on his skin around her Adam's apple. All the evidence showed that the scarf was actually used pretty rudely, you know. Evidence showed
that it was tightly looped around her neck. She also had additional marks on her body. There was a mark above I believe her right breast which was slightly discolored. There was a half inch laceration on her left knee. Police later believed that that was due to the fact at some point maybe she had during the attack fell onto the ground. Her knee had made contact with the ground, which was frozen and there was ice at the time. There was also evidence of sexual assault, no necessarily marks
of defensive wounds. No blood was found at the scene. That was another interesting thing. They found no hairs. There was really nothing at least for the body besides the seven of fluid that was found that would indicate that a crime obviously had taken place.
You chronicle at the same time, around the same time in December than the previous seventy In September seventy five year old woman was attacked. In December, women were attacked, some escaped, All of these were gave various descriptions of the perpetrator. Now you have Detective Melanowski and Detective Loopo on the case here. What is their strategy in terms of potential suspects, how do they go about finding those and what's the criteria.
Well, the interesting thing was that when these numerous attacks had occurred prior to the death alre much that December, these attacks, which kind of resembled more blitz style attacks, were more similar in nature that some of the ones we'll see later in the book. Some of these attacks consisted of older or elderly women who were again they were attacked in a blitz style manner, and some of them were pulled into the back of the residence where there was either an assault that had taken a place
or an attempted assault. Those individuals did flee the sea. Now, the detectives at the time had known about this, that was very fresh on their minds and it was definitely something that they were trying to combat. This type of murder from onset had all the earmarks of the similar type of attack. So the police were the opinion that those were not only connected, that the same individual was responsible, and fanning out through the neighborhood, they looked for additional clues.
There was a value that ran behind seven to one seven Holland Street. It ran north bound before them, appropriately cutting i would say, eastbound behind some manufacturing buildings and other homes residences. Police also fanned out to try to find individuals who had criminal records of his sexual nature, sex offenders, individuals who were known to rape and cost women, something similar to what we see in today's society with
investigating crimes. The detectives were pretty much on point back then. They knew the type of individual they were looking for with somebody and this was a sexually motivated crime. So they began pulling all these individuals in, individuals with past criminal records, Like I said, focusing on those who had a sexual nature and renown to rape women and sexually attack them.
You talk about the fear that was spreading very very quickly in Erie, Pennsylvania, with a great example with the frantic Charlotte clue. The woman that had initially seen Laura Munch in the backyard called police frantic that there was a prowler in her basement, and police ran to that location immediately and found no prowler whatsoever. And soon Charlotte
moved out of that location. And you talk about the fear that was spreading very very quickly while detectives were scrambling to find suspects.
Yeah, and it was very apparent the effect that this had. And that shows two things. One that the attacks on women prior to the murder were fresh in the public's mine,
at least in that area. In two, once that had escalated the murder, we saw numerous instances where husbands and boyfriends and might let their girlfriends and wives, even a sister's daughters, any kind of women, you know, we saw it uptick in them advising that you know, they would walk in groups or pairs, that women were not walking alone,
would not venture out much after night. Had instances where I even had individuals tell me that they remember barricades being put up immediately afterwards, the check individuals who were leaving in and out of the city. There was the implication that maybe, you know, at the time year he was still an industrial city, maybe it was a transient passing through somebody who was a sexual offender in nature,
you had women who would lock their doors. This was also evident with the local police switchboard, which was seeing a rise in phone calls from frantic housewives who were home alone and the women who claimed that there were prowlers on the residents. It definitely kept police on edge because the fact is where is this going to go next? How is it going to escalate? And that's very evident at least what we see with the local fear in the community. As you state, it keeps progressing.
More and more. You're right about February twenty eighth, nineteen sixty one, and a young woman named Betty Quick is attack walking home. She gives a description. There are four more suspects picked up by police. Of course, in those days they relied on polygraph tests to basically clear people. You right, though, there was a maniac in our midst. The headline June second, nineteen sixty one and Clara Carrigg, a seventy two year old is with her mother who's
ninety three. Tell us what happens when the man knocks out the door of their home.
Sure so on June second, nineteen sixty one, especially what it happened is Clara Carrag rented a resident of sixty eighty sixth Street here neary, Pennsylvania. She was at home with her elderly mother, who I believe was around using her her nineties early nineties, and that morning Clara Carrigg had received a bock at the front door from what
she would later recall as a younger white male. At the time, the landlord was attempting to sublet rent out the second floor of the home, which was also used as a rental property as well. She left the key with Kara Clarig and said if anybody did come by that she did have permission to go ahead to show the residents. So on getting a knock at the front door, Clara Carig is introduced by a man who said he's
responding to an advertisement about her room to rent. She takes some upstairs to the second floor and immediately she is attacked, this time again as we see with the previous instances, in a blitz style type of attack. She's sexually assaulted and she is stabbed in the stomach. Now at that point Clara wakes up she had been also
you know, assaulted and beaten. She wakes up discovers that she stabbed, gains the attention of her husband downstairs, who assists her before contacting the fire department at police, who then immediately respond to the scene of the accident, and then she's rushed to the hospital with what would be at the time almost considered near fatal wounds, but luckily, with you know, blood transfusions and then getting her rushed into surgery, they were able to save her life.
You say that police noticed similarities between this attack and Laura Mutch's murder, I don't think correct.
Yeah, there was a and this kind of fits into that pattern, and the early woman was attacked, although this one woman was attacked in her home, but there was this sexual assault nature, the fact that there was an attempt at murder. You know, this is following the murder of Laura munsso police had every reason they feel and believed that this individual would would murder again, have the
opportunity presented itself. With some of the specifics at least, like Clara Terrik had mentioned the way that the individual had attacked her, there were similarities at least with some of the detectives department that that was done by somebody of a similar nature who's responsible for those attacks.
You write that the headline was madman on the loose, and also that you write that there were widespread changes in the police department in March nineteen sixty two, and somebody that was initially on this case, Fagotsky, was the motive to patrol officer, so he retired. But also another person involved. In July nineteen sixty two, Melanowski decided to paint his house outside. He had a heart attack and died at fifty nine. And you say several days after
that another woman was attacked. And you have this chapter titled Downpour of Death. July twentieth, nineteen sixty two, and Helen Noss, who's twenty seven, is visits a department store in West Eriy Plaza and she gets back to her car. Tell us what happens to Helen Nost July twentieth.
So what happens on July twenty, nineteen sixty two. Helen Oss had gone to West Aria Plaza, which at the time was a popular shopping location with stores. She had gone to pay some bills. A time when she was preparing to leave to go to her vehicle, there was a downpour. At the time, rain had been thundering through the area. As she approached her car and went to go sit inside the vehicle, A young white male sat
in the passenger side seat at the same time. Soon he produced a knife and essentially abducted her from West Erie Plaza into his own vehicle. The vehicle then proceeds westbound outside of the Erie city limits into the countryside in the area where we know what we call water or I'm sorry, a fairview in Pennsylvania. Now, at some point, he turns off the road onto a road called Eaton Road, pulls over, begins to mercifully beat her, and she then
she blocks out. She doesn't recall anything until several hours later she awakened in a ditch on the side of the road and with her throat slit tastes her several times, and you know, she was able to muster enough strength to make it to a nearby local mom and pop gas station as we call it, where police were contacted. Emergency personnel were able to rush her to the hospital. This kind of tack, even though helen Os was different from cleric carry gi much and the fact that she
was a much younger woman, younger victim. But what bothered the police was the fact is that how she was attacked. There was some evidence that there was a possible assault on her, sexual assault, which also factored into it. So now you had the residence of the city ari who had been on fear for a year and a half, so on and so forth. Now as it was spreading into the count So that kind of escalates at that
time the fear in that area. But it also sees the introduction of Pennsylvania State Police in that investigation.
You also say that Helen was able to make a composite drawing which was released, and this was a unique sketch in many ways for the description that she had for that composite, didn't she.
Yeah, it was really And the thing is the police had worked with nos for some time on the composite sketch because of the individual. And the interesting thing is that, you know, as you'll see, as the audience will see in the book, there were numerous other attacks that were just like the abduction and attack on Hollanos that occurred
even as far away as Buffalo, New York. So you know, with the State police being involved, you know, one of their thoughts was this as an individual who you know, he has means to an automobile, he has the ability to travel. So there was the hope that, you know, if this individual matched somebody, whether they were in Erie County or nearby state of Ohio or New York, that that could possibly lead to an arrest, and the composite
itself was very detailed. Police also went ahead and released additional details of the inside of the individual's vehicle what that would have looked like as well. Unfortunately, those yielded no conclusive clues, but it definitely did provide an interesting description of the attacker himself. You know, the fact is in the paper started calling him the slasher, which also
kind of plays into that fact that the press. One thing I remember being told and called as my professor says, if it bleeds, it leads, and that's certainly something that applied to these cases, because you know, not only do you have these attacks and murders occurring against women in the area creating the sphere, but you have the press with these sensational headlines that kind of takes in and then puts it into overdrive.
I wanted to mention the incredible photos that are that are part of this extraordinary book, and you provide that composite drawing in your book as well, along with an incredible array of photos from that time right to say the slasher is has surfaced. But from that it seems that the police think they have their first real break, don't they.
Yeah. The thing is with this, you have not only and this is kind of where we see not only the difference in the different jurisdictions of police departments that operated and investigating these crimes, but we start to see, you know, the area city police detect us believe one thing, state police believe another thing. You kind of see that little bit of the fraying at the edge there between
its departments. And that's something that we see even today with different crimes that at Sometimes you'll have jurisdictions that don't necessarily cooperate or share information because they don't think it's relevant. First and foremost. Now with that, it also was interesting because they think, oh, well, we finally got somebody. Erie City police said, say police off the bat did not feel was connected to the crimes that have occurred
in the city of Erie. Clara Kerrig, although she survived, her descriptions of her attack, we were not really consistent and being what we know now by witness identification, it's kind of easy to see, you know, especially when you have victims who survived trauma, how much they can compartmentalize the attacks themselves, how much that can actually hinder actually
what really occurred. So the fact that they had already had a woman that survived this, This was you know, a younger woman who you know, state police would come to find. She was pretty consistent with her description of her attack, and the police certainly wanted to get it right. When they did that, they felt that, hey, it was a matter of time released this composite, sketchy released, you know, an extremely detailed background, nobody was wearing, what he looks like,
what the inside was vehicle. Is that they felt it was a matter of time before he was arrested.
You have a chapter called Silk Stockings and Dangerous Desires. There is a friend, Margaret Wren's, and she hasn't seen her friend, Eleanor Free, forty one year old, for a week. So she's very concerned, and so she calls Eleanor's daughter. Then a locksmith is called. What did they find and how do police proceed with this latest murder?
So with that that actually involves a murder that occurred here in hearing. The body of Eleanor Free was found on December seventeenth, nineteen sixty two. Investigators believe, obviously it occurred prior to that, that was a murder that was coined here infamously as the silk Stocking Sling. So Margaret Rentz and her husband and a local locksmith who was in the area, had gained access to Eleanor Free's home, went upstairs to the second floor and found Eleanor Free
decease in the upstairs bedroom. Police were contacted, probably arrived on scene and ultimately find this Free, who was a woman who was separated from her husband at the time. You see the cease on the second floor tied up with stalking essentially around her throat, which was then in some way tied elaborately to her door. This kind of
murder itself. Any I think seasoned detective will look at it and say, hey, you know, there's obviously similarities between this and the murder of Laura Much the attacker and cleric Krrig and Helenos. But the police, at least back then that their due diligence, and that was one of the the interesting thing was investigated all these attacks and crimes as if they were investigated by it, as if they were perpetrated by the same individual, right, you know
my method of elimination. Gradually, with the Free murder, they came to suspect a acquaintance of first who was known as mister X due to the fact of how he signed some greeting cards, and he eventually became the prime suspect, which with police eventually not believing it was related to the much murder.
Right, and they always believed he was responsible, but could never prosecute him for the murder.
Yeah, that is correct. Eventually the gentleman came close to supposedly confessing to the murder itself. But even up until they re opened the case in early two thousands, of police we're pretty confident in the evidence of support that that was more of a personal murder in nature. You know, the evidence confirmed that the stocking actually wasn't used to
actually strangle her. That was in But the thing is, at time when Elner Free's body is found, a tectives noted that the way it was wrapped around here kind of reminded them, at least with the knots and all that it was similar to lore much so, like I said, police were definitely on top of at least doing your diligence, at least looking at everything as if it was done by the same individual, gradually saying okay, well, the evidence kind of moves us in the direction that this individual
known as mister X, who is the gentleman who eventually was identified as Clifford Salo as a male acquaintance of hers, is actually responsible for it. We don't believe much as murderer is responsible. So it definitely, you know, they're kind of filtering out what's possibly related and what's not.
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subject line of your email. So today I know your friend Dan sent you main Street Logistics front of the line anywhere anytime now, justin we were just about to talk about your chapter. A corpse in Axe Murder Hollow And a person named Dan Scala gets a call from his sister in law's husband, David Kratey, and there's something seriously wrong. He bequested Scala, come but not tell anyone. Tell us what happens here with Lynn Kroatey and this story.
So Dan Scaler goes to the residence of David and Martha Krotty on January twentieth, nineteen sixty three. It is at the residence that mister Scala is advised by his brother in law that his niece Mary Lynn Crotty, known by the family effectually as Lynn, was missing the night prior. She had supposedly gone out with a friend had never returned home. And you know that kind of created a little bit of panemonium amongst the family because it was out of the Ordinary Floord. Lynn Crotty at the time
was a student at Edinburgh College. She when she was missing, set off a series of events in which Scala and Karate then reached out to the young woman who was with Lynn Krotti the night before, Paul Atte Sewinski, and they learned that they were out with two gentlemen, Daniel
baby Kauser and John Harvey. And eventually what they would come to find out is that, you know, they went out to several places, indulged in a few alcoholic beverages, and then at some point baby Guser drove Lynn Krotate home, or so he claimed. He claimed that she was feeling sick. He dropped her off close to her her residence. Hadn't
seen her since now. At the time, Lynn Krotti's father enlists the assistant of a gentleman by the name of Lewis Penman, who was an investigator from the Pennsylvania State Police lived the block away. Mister Penman arrives at the Karate residence speaks with the parties, and at that time John Harvey and Daniel Babykuser had arrived at the Karate home. Penman speaks with both of them separately and then together.
At the time, Penwin did not notice any inconsistencies in their statements anything that would give him any kind of alarm, But at the end of the conversation he did tell the both men that, you know, they needed to provide lin Krotti's whereabouts. By the end of the day, you know, there's no essians or about it. Eventually, the trail leads back to Daniel Biby Kauser and once they meet up with him the following day, Louis Penman had asked byby
Kauser permission to search his vehicle. Upon searching the vehicle, he locates a crew drawing of a woman essentially in bondage and some other things that they kind of trouble him. They take baby Kauser back to not necessarily the station, but they took him back to at least Lawrence Park
questioned him there further. Bibe Kauser eventually had would go on to admit that lin Kartti was in fact deceased, and at that point, from the Lawrence Park Police Department, you have Lewis Penman and additional investigators traveled to the spot where biby Gauser claimed that he killed her. At the time, he was still trying to claim that he blacked out didn't fully remember what happened. He then placed
her in the back of his trunk. And then this was the most I would say heartbreaking part of it is that while while Lynn's family was looking for her outside, essentially a police would come to realize Lynn was just nearby in the back of this trunk and they didn't know it. Later that night, at some point, the Kauser admits to then taking the body and driving out to an area of Mill Creek Township here down Thomas Road.
Locals call it exe Murder Hollow, and it is a known lover's lane even when I was a high school student, you know, that was someplace kids went to indulged underage drinking and other means. And it was an area where he then conveniently dumped the body. He took police to the body of which they were able to locate, and afterwards John Dan Biby Kauser was charged with murder. Now
again this is sort of a little bit different. You know, this is Daniel Biby Kauser's an individual who murdered somebody who he knew that wasn't a complete stranger to him. So there's a little bit different victimology than Laura much and Clara Carrick, Ala Moss and nom are free. But again, the fact that she was strangled, the fact of how he attacked, and they would also come to speak with a miner who is sexually assaulted by Bibig Kausler. There's
that sexual element to the crime. There's a strangulation, you know, two key things that occurred with Laura Much. So police again doing their due diligence and saying, hey, you know, we need to rule this guy out, we need to question him about the murders. Obviously, Baby Causer is later cleared in any kind of involvement. But as audiences will see later on Bibig Kauser's mentality, his victimology, the way he went about things, red flags all over the place.
He was an individual and then as a young child, set fire to a garage, indulged in sexual fantasies, young in life, pretty much all the earmarks you have of a modern day serial killer. So police, definitely, I would I wouldn't say they got lucky, but they did an excellent job in being able to apprehend him because it's most certainly he used another dangerous individual that operated in this area that had the potential to continue to do that.
And what about the connection with Laura Much's death.
So eventually police came to the conclusion that there was no real connection. They did give him a light of TECH test. BBA Kauser denied any kind of responsibility for that. But there is the fact is is the police still did come back to the notion of we have this individual. He attacks women in a sexual manner, he strangulates them. While he was in a military he did come back home on lea several times in the erie. We haven't been able to place those dates, you know, if he
was here around at any time of those attacks. So they questioned him at length. Felt pretty comfortable that with how BBA counsel admitted to murdering Lynn Crotty and his other crimes and stuff like that, they felt that the evidence did not support him as being responsible for that homicide.
You read about the abduction from the tally Ho Bar July fifth, nineteen sixty three and Davida Boyer, fifty two year old, and what this leads to. John Howard Wilman tell us about that.
So that part of the story is actually the big break that the police were hoping for. It the big break in this whole case. And this is also kind of where it gets stranger is with the induction and assault of Davida boy Or, a woman in July nineteen sixty three. She's at a local boyer called the Tally Home. Later that night, at closing time, she leaves with an individual who offers to take her home in his pickup. As he's driving her home, she realizes he's not taking a home.
Something's up. Eventually, this individual takes her to the Bayfront here in Erie nexus to the vehicle and begins to assault her. And it's pretty brutal, and the information we have is actually from Davida Boyer's testimony itself. It's pretty graphic. Her attacker attempts to shove his hand down her throat and strangulate her, remove her underwear, essentially try to sectually assault her and kill her. During this attack, he tells her that he murdered somebody similar who would not give
into his demands essentially, so to speak. The testimony itself has a little bit more colorful language, of course, But after that, Davida Warrior does make an opportunity to be able to break free from the attack, which he does. At the time, she is intoxicated, so you know, as she's you know, trying to get away from this individual. There are several witnesses would later testify at the trial.
Did they chalk it up to just a woman and a man having a disagreement, you know that alcohol was involved. Police eventually are called the individual in the truck please the scene. Police arrive speak with the Vita Boyer and they take her down to the station. They attempted to take her first back to the Taliahoe bar to try to speak with any potential witnesses who could verify what this individual look like, but the bar was closed at
that time. Detective that responded to the scene took her back to the headquarters to try to get a statement, but because she was still intoxicated, let her sleep it off for the night. So she provides the information and then detectives who are a science at the case, eventually, you know, they go to the Talioho bar speak with individuals, try to get a little bit more of a feeling
as to what had transpired. Essentially, detectives who were working as a team, which were Charles McCurdy and Melvin Swanson. They come across a waitress at the tally Ho a name of Irene Fogel. If Fogel was able to give them a pretty accurate description of the man who left with the Vieta boyer because he had attempted to get her to go with him or have drinks with him, something along that nature, so he was fresh in her mind. So that kind of you know, led to police believing, hey,
you know that this sounds promising. But at the time police also did not announce the details that the Vieter boyer told him about this man, admitting that he murdered a woman who refuses essentially have sex with him, which you know, again that leads back to the murder of war much. But at this time we see the same kind of essential victimology. We see a elderly, older woman where her attacker is able to take advantage of her, an attacker in a blitz silent attack and you know,
attempt to essentially murder her. So at that point what happens is police tell Irene Fogel, they say, well, are you able to splot this man again? She you know, she's pretty confident that if she saw him again, she would let them know, and he was a rate. He had been in that bar before, but he also frequent in many bars and downtown Erie police would later find out. So in July thirteenth, well, Irene Fogel is downtown with a friend of hers. She spots the same individual. She
contacts police, please send out Swanson and McCurdy again. They do a cursor research in the area through several different bars there. At one point they regroup at a bar plot their next step, and as they are leaving this establishment, spot a gentleman who's confirmed by Irene Fogel walking towards him as the individual she saw leading with the Vita boy Or the night she was attacked. They approached the individual, tell me he's under arrest. He does not fight arrest,
he does not He goes willingly in the station. He's identified as John Howard Woman, a local truck driver. Later that night they have Irene Fogel identify him. They also bring into Vida Boyer, and at first, interestingly enough, she's not able to identify him. She had a little bit of difficulty with it, but after some time, John Howard
Woman admits to attacking da Vida Boyer. He gives a statement which he kind of deflects, you know, the blame onto his victim, which she is pretty common in these situations.
And then afterwards he admits to detectives that he did something bad, and when he's pushed further, he admits to murdering law and which now at that time this is something that is kept under wraps, and this just creates a huge portion of the case where we see the involvement in the ACLU, and it really really kind of escalates things I would say, once they have women in.
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So you say that they have him in custody, and there is the issue that comes up later, and it's an important issue, is that at the time when you were arrested, you were not afforded in an attorney until you were charged. So there was a period of time between the arrest and when you might be or when they were in custody and then you would be charged. This became an issue in this particular case, didn't it.
It most certainly did because after John Howard Woman is arrested and held, he's held primarily for the attack on Davida Bowyer, not the murder of Laura much detectives would get a confession out of him in that murder, but it lacked any kind of main details as to what happened. Also, it created difficulty in this situation is, as we discussed, there's no evidence at the crime scene of Laura Mush. Eventually, what happens is the only thing that ties John Howard
Woman's dest scene or his own words. Now, eventually police are able to quickly recognize John Howard Woman is a little mentally, he's slow, he's got a low IQ. You know, he doesn't have that much of an education. I believe you only went up to school to middle school before he dropped out. He police would learn he did serve
with National Guard. He was stationed overseas in Germany. And the interesting thing but that is, at the whole time detectives are telling him, hey, look, you do realize that you know, we're trying to get to the bottom of what happened. We want you to be truthful. Did this happen. At no point does he deny any responsibility for the murder of war much. But the difficulty in that is that, you know, this is pre what we call miranda, before police had to, at least here in America, had to
read your miranda rights. You know, you have the right to remain silent. You know, anything he's saying, can we'll be used against you in an attorney, so on and so forth. You know, we'll be afforded if you cannot afford one. So at that point, although they were advising Wollman that he didn't have to speak with him, they were not legally required to say do you want an attorney? And the argument they would use is that woman didn't ask for an attorney, He was not allowed to see
his family right away. They fed him, they took him back to the scene where Much was murdered. That didn't offer any additional information or any kind of clues. And then eventually John Howard Willman is transferred to the Erie County Jail here, which at the time was behind the At County Courthouse. His family starts to visit him, and one of his sisters, who actually works at a law office, starts to kind of connect the dots to say, you're not going to hold John for a simple sexual assault
for this long someho else. Eventually, police detectives informed John Wilman's siblings and their spouses that he is being investigated for the murder of Laura Much And essentially what happens is they then take a second statement, and after the second statement in September of nineteen sixty three, the district attorney at the time reviews all the so called evidence they have against women, which again consists primarily of just this two statements with us, and they then decide to
press charges against John Howard Woman for the murder of Laura Much. Now this creates an immediate issue because the ACLU catches wind of it, and for the amount of time that Willman was incarcerated, they claim that he was he was not afforded his constitutional rights to counsel. So this sets off of public legal battle between ACLU and
the Erie County District Attorney. And you have some individuals who are worried because this isn't the individual that attacked, you know, and killed Laura, butch might have been responsible for other ones. What if he gets free at the technicality, you know, So there's that thing that's going on in the back of the mind that the locals who live
here in Erie. But it also sets a precedent because it takes the police investigation, puts it in front center with those that live here in Erie about what was going on, what happened. Eventually, you know, it's ruled that John Howard Willman, according to the judges here, that his confessions were obtained legally and despite the fact that he had a low IQ where they were allowed it in his evidence essentially, which would then culminate in his trial in February nineteen sixty four.
But as you write that, there is people like the ACLU that get on board and other people, and of course the appeals process, and you chronicle all that from the initial trial in nineteen sixty four to the eventual retrial. Let's get to talking about another individual that you cover in here named Ralph William Rogers and how he enters this story.
So, Ralph William Rodgers is an interesting individual, and this case itself is interesting because this crime occurred when John Howard woman was already incarcerated waiting for his day in court. So, but that case it involves is the death of Marian Graham, and that essentially occurred, I would say so on January twenty ninth, nineteen sixty four, a truck driver spotted up something outside the road that looked like a body. He excess a semi and serves what he appears to see
what it actually is a body. It's of a nude woman partially obscured behind a tree. Police are contacted involved, including some of the individuals from the Pennsylvania State Police who are involved in the abduction and attempted murder of Helen Oss. They investigate the crime itself and Rogers is
eventually charged with that murder. Now that one is interesting because they believe that Graham was either strangled or she was suffocated as eventually and then Rogers over time would change his confession, you know, in front of law enforcement, and that one was included merely because because of the Rogers was known as a prowler, he was known to attack women. And that's one of the fascinating thing with this case is that, you know, you have all these
different attacks on women. Not all of them are connected. It's pretty clear that we can separate which ones are related which ones aren't. But some individuals can necessarily be excluded from some of the crimes, some of them can. So Rogers fits into that profile. The fact that there is a sexual element to it. You know, you're not gonna just murder a woman, take all her clothes off and throw her out in the cold, you know, for just if you're gonna robb her or something like that.
We know that, So that occurs, you know obviously well afterwards, but there's still that kind of a hesitating factor of some people who believe. You know, at the time, you had members of the public who didn't think women was responsible.
So that kind of fed into that fear narrative that maybe the police have the wrong guy, and that kind of culminates in the trial itself, especially when the prosecution and the reason why the prosecution had fought so hard to keep those confessions in because without the confession, John Howard Wolman is not incarcerated for the murder of war much. He essentially only serves for the attack on Davida Boyer and he's just another dangerous individual in the streets. Some people.
You're right that the fact that John Howard Willman, Daniel Roy big big Hauser, and Ralph William Rodgers were all convicted for similar crimes during a period when more than fifteen known women were attacked or assaulted, with those responsible unknown is truly frightening.
Yeah, I mean, and it definitely sets a precedent, at least here in Erie area at the time, is that similar crimes, especially with three different individuals, was very rare. You know. The only other time I think we've ever seen something like that is LA when you had the Hillside Strangler, you know, running around the same time is Roddney Alkalo and all these other killers at the same time.
This is really interesting because also with these three individuals, and the most important of this is John Howard Wolman is a middle aged man or even a young man like that, doesn't just wake up one day and say I'm going to go kill somebody and I'm going to go strangle them, and there's going to be the sexual elegment. There's a build up to that, you know. We see
that with Daniel biebick Hawser with his past history. We see the red flags, you know, with with you know, setting fires, killing your animals, we see the sexual element. There's the element with Ralph Rodgers where you see, you know, he's an unprowler. There's a sexual element with how he killed Mary and Graham, which to this day there's still
some unanswered questions. That's also evident when he is able to get out of prison later in life, what does he do He attempts to rape and rape an assault a woman before he commits suicide. John Howard woman doesn't really fit that mold essentially to some extent. Now, the difficult thing is that, you know, there are some inconsistencies with the Vida Boyers statement that she gives the police.
We know that. But the thing is is evidence obviously supports there's evidence, at least at least conclusively supports that John Howard Woman did attack to Vida Boyer, he attempted to commit a sexual assault on her. But there are the inconsistencies and concerns with him as an individual. For example, the police claim that John Howard Woman tied in front of them, how he tied the scarf around Laura Much
and strangled her. But then you have people who served with him in the National Guard said he couldn't even tie his shoes, he couldn't tie a tie. That was also by his family members. And then but then again you kind of switch back with John Howard Woman that in the fifties he was found sitting in a parked vehicle wearing women's clothing. So there's that kind of there's still that kind of sexual element there where, even if you have a little bit of doubt, was John Howard
Woman capable of doing it? Absolutely, he presented all the different homemarks for it. But the thing is is that we also you know again, you know, if John Howard Woman murdered Laura Much and he attempted to almost murder to beat a bowyer, that's a pattern, you know, these individuals, especially you know in the early thirties You don't just wake up and start doing that. There has to be
you know, there's somebody that precludes that. You know, there's a record that you know follows that, and there was nothing of that at least when he was stationed in Germany. He wasn't reprimanded. He there was no disciplinary actions during his record there. He didn't attack women that was known of.
And that's not to say it didn't happen, but he out of the three individuals who was convicted for these crimes in this time, he's probably the lone wolf of the bunch that there's still some unanswered questions about.
What about the claim by the family. You don't really explore it except you show it in terms of that they in the winter time used to put plastic and nail up the windows just because of the weather. So they said he couldn't have got out of that home without them knowing, right, And.
That's also one of the other difficult things. And this is something that we see cases. At least, I think it's pretty clear that had this case on the trial the way it did them now, he wouldn't have been convicted.
There's no evidence that essentially ties to it. Besides the profession, but his family brought up that the only way that John would have been able to leave that night to murder or which to go to a bar and drink and meet her on his way home, was he would have either had to leave the house in front of them, in which everybody was up later that night, or he would have had to have gone through the window in the back of the house where his room was, which
was untouched. When police came and searched the property there, they looked at it, and of course, you know, we're talking about something that occurred almost three years before, so you know, things can change, people can replace things, you know. But that coupled with the fact that even the bartender who worked at Huck's Cafe, where John Howard woman claims he was at drinking the night that he left and then met Laura Mush on the way home, couldn't conclusively
put him there. He remembered him as a frequent visitor there and a frequent patron, but you know, there's no evidence putting him there at that establishment. So that creates some of that reasonable doubt. But then again it also goes back to the prosecution's case relying solely on these two confessions where he puts himself there.
Essentially, you're right that Willman was released and returned to Erie, resided with his siblings, and died at eighty six years old in twenty thirteen.
Yeah, he eventually, he did the rest of his time. He does not appear in any criminal records, anything in a newspaper, and that appears who lives a quiet life when he returned home, lived with his siblings. I did reach out to some of his family members. Has one sibling left. He has a sister who lives in Florida. But after some time he did enter a nursing home
and passed away there. And this kind of goes back to that troubling thing is well, you have an individual who supposedly has a history of a tax on women. You know, and again this is not to doubt the
investigations that happened. I mean know, we're essentially also going based off of what the police had at the time, you know, without forensics, right, you know, we're looking at the fact is this as an individual who if he attacked Laura Mush, he attacked to be a bowyer, if he has that history of sexual assault, we all know those types of individuals, you know, they don't get out
of prison and they're not cure. There's there's usually a high recommittal rate for that for those individuals, because they'll get back out again and they recommit after doing the same offensive. There's none of that, at least what we can see with John hard Woman. When he comes back to Eerie, he doesn't you know, he's not arrested by police.
There's no further incidents with him. Ironically, when he's buried, he's buried less than one hundred yards from where Laura Musch is buried in the same cemetery.
You talk about that this reign of terror existed in the same sixties, but at the dawn of the seventies, you say the attacks ended and seemed like things got somewhat back to normal.
And here Pennsylvania, yeah, I mean there was definitely afterwards. I mean there was additional attacks on women. There was a woman I believe it was around sixty five. Her name was Myrtle Ball. She was was was beaten to death by it by a local man after a night of drinking. That case resulted in a conviction for that individual. But you know, after that, they hit the attacks themselves kind of died down at least, so specific types of
attacks and we don't really see them occurring again. You know, we see all these other different types of attacks, you know, muggings against women, petty juvenile thievery and stuff like that, but not to the nature of what happened at least during the beginning of this book. So leads you to believe, you know, was the individual truly apprehended, who was responsible for all that did day up and leave and go
somewhere else and continue it elsewhere. You know, those are you know, lingering questions that you know we'll probably never know. But police tried to be subjective to the fact that I wanted to present everything more with an unbiased point of view and then leave you, the viewer or the audience, to make up your own assumption, ask your own questions. I think that's the best way for us to revisit some of these cases. And I think there's clear there's a lot of red flies with a lot of these
you know, you can draw numerous parallels. If these individuals can be placed in the area all at the same time is very likely if they're still responsible for some of them, at least that's just going to be that enduring mystery that lives on.
Absolutely. I want to thank you very much, Justin dem Breski for coming on and talking about Erie's backyard strangler terror in the sixties. Can you tell us about any social media you do and tell us a little bit about Pickwick Entertainment?
Sure. So, I do run a Facebook page called Shadows from the Boulevard, which focuses on local Erie history more primarily on local true crime, historical true crime here in the Erie area. I've run that for just over a year and a half. It allows me to pretty much be able to share all the research I've done upcoming projects, including some upcoming books that I'll be working on in regards to Pickwick and entertainment. That is a company that I co founded with two good film friends of mine,
Gavin Pritti and Ed Mantel, independent film production company. We've worked on some projects for.
You know.
It also is part of a background of my work in the film industry, which has been since twenty eleven, done some screenplays, worked unofficially on some films and so yeah, so I mean there's definitely that film moment with the background of what I've done, which essentially, could we've been exporting the possibility of doing at least docu dramas or so on and so forth.
Thank you very much. Justin Dombrowski Aries, Backyard Strangler tear in the sixties, Thank you so much. You have a great nig name.
And good night, thank you too,